Stellar Ballet: Apep's Cosmic Dance and Titan's Liquid Mystery

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Stuart Gary: This is space time series 28 episode

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150 for broadcast on 22nd

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December 2025. Coming up on

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spacetime. The deadly embrace of

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three dying stars claim

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Saturn's biggest moon, Titan, might not have

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an underground ocean after all. And

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NASA's missing MAVEN spacecraft still

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silent. All that and more coming up

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on, on Space Time.

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Voice Over Guy: Welcome to Space Time with Stuart Gary

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Stuart Gary: Astronomers are unraveling the mysteries of a

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distant star system where three massive stars

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are locked in a 190 Earth year orbit and

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in the process creating spectacular spirals

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of cosmic dust. The findings reported

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in the Astrophysical Journal show four

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spectacular dust shells spiraling outwards

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from three massive stars locked in a cosmic

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dance. The rare stellar system called

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Apep is located more than 8,000 light years

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away in the constellation Norma. Named after

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a serpent deity from Egyptian mythology,

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Apep consists of a Wolf Rayet binary star

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system and a hot blue supergiant.

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Wolf rays are a very rare class of massive

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stars in which some of the earliest carbon in

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the universe is forged. Only 1000

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Wolf Ray stars are estimated to exist in our

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Milky Way galaxy, a galaxy that contains

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literally hundreds of billions of stars. Of

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the few hundred wolf ray binaries that have

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been observed, Apep is the only example that

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contains two Wolf Rayer stars in our galaxy.

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Using NASA's Webb Space Telescope, together

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with data from the Very Large Telescope, the

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VLT in Chile, the study's authors obtained

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extraordinary images of this rare system,

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displaying four distinct shells of dust.

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One of the study's authors, Ryan White from

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Macquarie University, says the discovery

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helps astronomers better understand how stars

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like this interact and how they evolve over

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centuries. White and colleagues combine

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precise measurements of the ring location

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from Webb images, together with the speed of

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the shell's expansion from taken by the

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VLT over eight years. This

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is a one of a kind star system with an

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extremely long orbital period. In fact, the

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next longest orbit for a dusty Wolf Rayer

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binary is around 30 Earth years and most have

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orbits between 2 and 10 Earth years.

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Observations of this system taken prior to

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Webb only detected one shell. While

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the existence of the outer shells was

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hypothesized, ground based telescopes were

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simply unable to, uncover any. And that's

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where Webb comes in. The Webb image, combined

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with several years of data from the European

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Southern Observatory's Very Large Telescope

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was able to narrow down how often the pair

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swung around each other. Roughly every 190

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Earth years. And over each incredibly long

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orbit, the stars passed closely together for

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just 25 Earth years. And it's during

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these Relatively short periods of time that

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they were able to create their clouds of

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dust. Webb also confirmed that as

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well as the binary Wolf Ray A pair, there's a

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third star in the system, A massive spectral

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type O class blue supergiant. And the

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dust ejected by the two Wolf Ray A stars is

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slashed by the third star, carving a hole

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into each expanding cloud of dust from its

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wider orbit. The authors were able to refine

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the orbits of the Wolf Ray binaries by

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combining precise measurements of the ring

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location from the Webb images with the speed

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of the shell's expansion. Based on the

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observations taken by the vlt,

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the dust producing Wolf Ray stars in APEP

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aren't exactly on a tranquil cruise.

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They're whipping through space and sending

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out dust at around 2,000 to 3,000

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kilometers per second. When the two Wolf

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Rayer stars approach each other, their strong

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stellar winds collide and mix, forming and

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casting out heaps of carbon rich dust for a

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quarter of a century at a time. And that dust

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is also very dense. The specific

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makeup of the dust is another reason why Webb

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was able to observe so much more. That's

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because it, largely consists of amorphous

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carbon. Carbon dust grains retain

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higher temperatures even when they're

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spreading far away from the progenitor star.

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Now, while these exceptionally tiny dust

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grains are considered warm in terms of space,

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the light they emit is still extremely faint,

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which is why it could only be detected from

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space using Webb's mid infrared instrument.

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The authors believe the two Wolf Rayet stars

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were initially far more massive than their

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supergiant companion. But over the years,

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they've shed most of their mass. It's

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now likely that both Wolf Ray stars are,

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between 10 and 20 times the mass of the Sun,

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While their companion supergiant is 40, 50

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times the sun's mass. As for the future,

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Ryan White says eventually the two Wolf Rayet

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stars will explode a supernovae quickly

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throwing their contents into space. And

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he admits that either one or both of these

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Wolf rays may also eventually produce a gamma

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ray burst, one of the most powerful events in

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the universe, before ultimately collapsing

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down to become stellar mass black holes.

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Nick Timms : So a Wolf Ray star is the kind

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of the very end of life stages of the most

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massive stars. So stars that are born

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with masses more than about 25

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or 30 times the mass of our own sun, they go

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through their lives combining hydrogen into

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helium in their core, and then once they've

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run out of hydrogen, they combine helium into

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carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, etc. And

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eventually, when these stars kind of start

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Burning through all of their fuel, they get

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rid of their outer layers and they're

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essentially a purely helium

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carbon nitrogen star. So

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they get rid of most of their mass. They're

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incredibly bright, they have extremely strong

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stellar winds and they live for just a

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blisteringly short amount of time. So

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for reference, our sun will live for about 10

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billion years. And these wolf ray stars, they

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spend about 100,000 years in this wolf

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ray stage. And the total star's life is about

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a million to a few million years.

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Stuart Gary: The James Deans of this stellar world.

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Nick Timms : Yes, exactly.

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Stuart Gary: So these are big O and B type

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stars that have reached the end of their

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lives. They're pumping huge amounts of

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carbon into space. And

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in this case there are two of them.

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Nick Timms : Exactly, yeah. So it's the only system we

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know of the R the system that has not one,

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but two of these classical wolf ray stars at

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the same time. It's the only system we've

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found in the universe that's like this. And

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we don't really know why it's like that, but

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it's a very interesting system.

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Stuart Gary: And they have a northern companion as well.

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Another large star.

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Nick Timms : Exactly, yeah. So I was very lucky to lead

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one of our team's papers on this system, with

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our new very beautiful James Webb Space

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Telescope image. And one of the main things

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I found was that there is this third, O type

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supergiant star as a part of the R the system

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as well. So it's reasonably far away from the

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two wolf ray stars. You can kind of think of

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it like the two wolf rays stars are happily

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orbiting around each other. And there's this

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third supergiant star a stone's throw away.

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But yeah, we found that like we exclusively

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linked this third, supergiant star as part of

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the system through its effects on this

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beautiful nebula that the two wolf rain stars

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make. So it's the first time that we've seen

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this kind of nebula interaction in nature

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before from a tertiary third companion. And

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it really complicates our view of the system

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even more. So it's not just that there's two

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wolf raised stars in the system now, it's

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that it's actually a triple system as well,

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which just makes it really complicated.

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Stuart Gary: I'm very scared that you're going to start

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talking about three body problems there. That

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wasn't my.

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Nick Timms : Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of complicated

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three body stuff happening here.

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Stuart Gary: Now these two stars, the two primary stars,

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they orbit each other roughly once every 190

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years. But the key area is

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roughly a 25 year period

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when there's a lot of interaction going on in

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the form of the dust that's being expelled

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from both these bodies.

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Nick Timms : Exactly right, yeah. So the two Wolf Ray

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stars on this 190 orbit, I can't

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say this enough. It really is an extreme and

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very complicated system. It's by far the

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longest orbital period for this type of

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system. And these beautiful dust shells that

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we see are only made in about 25 years of

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that 190 year orbital period. So each of

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these Wolf Ra stars has their own extremely

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strong stellar wind and they're on a quite an

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elliptical orbit. So they spend most of their

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time quite far away from each other. But

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every 25 years they kind of whip past each

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other in their orbit. And the conditions

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where their stellar winds collide are just

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right to form dust for that, for those

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25 years in particular. So you can kind of

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think about it as every 25 years the system

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is throwing out a puff of smoke essentially,

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which is quite unique for these systems as

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well. There are a couple of other of these

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Wolf, ray binaries that do episodically

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produce dust we say, but most of them are

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kind of more constant producers of dust. So

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it really is an interesting system.

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Stuart Gary: The dust is being pumped through the system

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at what, 3,000 kilometers per second, some

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amazing speed like that.

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Nick Timms : Yeah.

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Stuart Gary: So it must be giving you a great history

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lesson into the evolution of these systems.

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Nick Timms : Exactly, yeah. And that's one of the main

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reasons why we wanted James Webb imagery of

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the system is because we previously had an

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image of the Rupep Nebula with the Very Large

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Telescope, a ground based 8 meter telescope

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in Chile. But it was only sensitive enough to

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see one shell of dust in the RPEP Nebula.

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But with James Webb we were able to see four

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shells. And so effectively that means that

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each time we're looking at a further out

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shell, we're effectively looking 200 years

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back in time. And so with this new James Webb

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image we have essentially about 800 years

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of information about how these stars are

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moving, which has just been absolutely

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essential to like nail down the orbit of the

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system and what it's been like over time. And

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yeah it was, it was really quite crucial to

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link that third star into the system as well.

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Stuart Gary: That's Ryan White from Macquarie University.

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And this is space time still to

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come. A new study suggests that Saturn's

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largest moon, Titan, may not have a

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subsurface liquid water ocean after all.

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And mission managers at NASA are Continuing

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efforts to try and restore communications

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with their missing maven spacecraft. All that

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and more still to come on space time.

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A new study claims that the Saturnian moon

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Titan probably doesn't have a vast

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underground liquid water ocean after all.

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The findings reported in the journal Nature

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contradict earlier studies which suggested

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that a liquid water ocean existed below the

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methane covered world's surface.

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Titan is shrouded by a hazy

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atmosphere, and it's the only world in our

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solar system other than Earth where it rains.

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That rain forms streams and rivers and they

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flow into lakes and seas. However,

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on Titan, the liquid isn't water, but

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methane and ethane. In fact, Titan's so

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cold water there is frozen solid forming

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bedrock. Now, a, careful reanalysis of

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data from more than a decade ago indicates

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that a, journey below Titan's frozen surface

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likely involves more ice, giving way to

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slushy tunnels and pockets of meltwater near

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the rocky core. Data from NASA's

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Cassini mission to Saturn and its Huygens

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lander, which landed on the Titanian surface,

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initially led scientists to suspect a large

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ocean composed of liquid water lay deep

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beneath the ice. The problem is, when they

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modelled the moon with an ocean, the results

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didn't match the physical properties

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described by the data. That's where this new

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00:12:09.740 --> 00:12:12.740
study comes in. This fresh look has

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yielded new slushier results, and they're

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important because these findings could spark

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similar inquiries into other worlds in the

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solar system. And they could also help narrow

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down the search for life on Titan, if it ever

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had or does exist there. One of the study's

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authors, Batiste Yeunot from the University

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00:12:29.770 --> 00:12:32.650
of Washington, says instead of an open ocean

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like the Earth, astronomers would probably

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find something more akin to Arctic sea ice

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and aquifers. And that would have

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implications for the types of life, if any,

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that might exist there. And it also poses

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questions about the availability of

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nutrients, energy, and so on. NASA's

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Cassini mission began in 1997

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and lasted nearly 20 years, in the process

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producing volumes of data about Saturn and

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its 274 known moons.

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As Titan circled Saturn in its elliptical

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orbit, the authors observed the moon

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undergoing gravitational stretching and

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squeezing, depending on where it was in its

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orbit in relation to Saturn. Back in

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2008, scientists proposed that Titan must

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possess a huge ocean beneath its surface in

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order to allow for such significant

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deformation. Chenault says the degree

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of deformation depends on Titan's internal

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structure. A deep ocean would permit the

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crust to flex more under Saturn's

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gravitational pull. But if Titan were

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entirely frozen, it wouldn't be able to

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deform very much at all. Now, the deformation

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00:13:37.470 --> 00:13:39.310
detected during the initial analysis of

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00:13:39.310 --> 00:13:41.310
Cassini mission data could have been

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compatible with the global ocean, but it now

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00:13:44.110 --> 00:13:46.990
seems that isn't the full story. You see,

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the new study shows that Titan's shape

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shifting lags about 15 hours behind the

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00:13:52.230 --> 00:13:55.150
peak of Saturn's gravitational pull. It's a

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00:13:55.150 --> 00:13:57.790
bit like a spoon stirring honey. It takes

323
00:13:57.790 --> 00:13:59.830
more energy to move a thick, viscous

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00:13:59.830 --> 00:14:02.030
subsurface Than it does liquid water.

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And measuring that delay told the authors of

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this study how much energy it takes to change

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Titan's shape. And that allowed them to make

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00:14:09.450 --> 00:14:11.570
inferences about the viscosity of the

329
00:14:11.570 --> 00:14:14.250
titanium interior. The amount of energy

330
00:14:14.250 --> 00:14:16.410
dissipated was much greater Than what would

331
00:14:16.410 --> 00:14:19.010
be expected In a global liquid water ocean

332
00:14:19.010 --> 00:14:21.810
scenario. So the model our authors are

333
00:14:21.810 --> 00:14:24.610
proposing instead features more slush and

334
00:14:24.610 --> 00:14:27.530
quite a bit less liquid water. Slush

335
00:14:27.530 --> 00:14:29.530
is thick enough to explain the lag, but it

336
00:14:29.530 --> 00:14:32.330
still contains water, Enabling Titan to morph

337
00:14:32.330 --> 00:14:35.050
when tugged. Of course, the watery layer on

338
00:14:35.050 --> 00:14:37.250
Titan is so thick and the pressure so immense

339
00:14:37.330 --> 00:14:39.330
that the physics of water changes.

340
00:14:39.810 --> 00:14:42.370
Jeannette says. On Titan, water and ice

341
00:14:42.370 --> 00:14:44.490
behave in a very different way to that of

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00:14:44.490 --> 00:14:47.370
seawater here on Earth. Although

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the notion of an ocean on Titan Invigorated

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the search for life there, the authors

345
00:14:51.770 --> 00:14:53.730
believe the new findings Might actually

346
00:14:53.730 --> 00:14:56.570
improve the odds of finding it. Analysis

347
00:14:56.570 --> 00:14:58.810
indicates that the pockets of fresh water on

348
00:14:58.810 --> 00:15:01.710
Titan could reach 20 degrees Celsius, and

349
00:15:01.710 --> 00:15:03.910
any available nutrients Would be more

350
00:15:03.910 --> 00:15:06.190
concentrated In a smaller volume of water

351
00:15:06.270 --> 00:15:09.270
Compared to a huge open ocean. And that could

352
00:15:09.270 --> 00:15:11.750
facilitate the growth of any simple organisms

353
00:15:11.750 --> 00:15:14.390
which existed there. While it's unlikely

354
00:15:14.390 --> 00:15:16.150
scientists will discover fish wriggling

355
00:15:16.150 --> 00:15:18.390
through the slushy channels, if life is found

356
00:15:18.390 --> 00:15:20.870
on Titan, it may well resemble polar

357
00:15:20.870 --> 00:15:23.070
ecosystems right here on Earth.

358
00:15:23.950 --> 00:15:26.910
This is space time still to come.

359
00:15:27.410 --> 00:15:30.410
NASA's MAVEN mission remains silent. And

360
00:15:30.410 --> 00:15:32.930
later in the science report, paleontologists

361
00:15:32.930 --> 00:15:35.490
have discovered that some mosasaurs May well

362
00:15:35.490 --> 00:15:37.890
have hunted in rivers as well as seas.

363
00:15:38.450 --> 00:15:41.250
All that and more still to come on space

364
00:15:41.330 --> 00:15:41.730
time.

365
00:15:52.940 --> 00:15:53.260
Nick Timms : Foreign.

366
00:15:57.340 --> 00:15:59.350
Stuart Gary: NASA mission managers are, continuing their

367
00:15:59.350 --> 00:16:01.630
efforts to try and restore contact with their

368
00:16:01.630 --> 00:16:04.430
missing maven spacecraft. The Mars

369
00:16:04.430 --> 00:16:06.790
Atmosphere and Volatile Evolution spacecraft

370
00:16:06.790 --> 00:16:09.750
Fell silent During a routine pass behind the

371
00:16:09.750 --> 00:16:12.030
Red planet back on December 6.

372
00:16:12.590 --> 00:16:14.910
Engineers at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory

373
00:16:14.910 --> 00:16:17.390
in Pasadena, California, have been reviewing

374
00:16:17.390 --> 00:16:20.070
the last data packages received before Mars

375
00:16:20.070 --> 00:16:22.330
occultation In order to try and determine

376
00:16:22.330 --> 00:16:25.250
what could have gone wrong. Only then will

377
00:16:25.250 --> 00:16:27.450
they be able to work out whether or not they

378
00:16:27.450 --> 00:16:30.450
can save the vehicle. Before the loss of

379
00:16:30.450 --> 00:16:32.450
signal telemetry indicated that maven

380
00:16:32.530 --> 00:16:34.890
subsystems were all operating nominally as it

381
00:16:34.890 --> 00:16:37.690
approached occultation. As Maven moved

382
00:16:37.690 --> 00:16:40.090
behind Mars, communications with NASA's Deep

383
00:16:40.090 --> 00:16:42.610
Space Network was always expected to cut off.

384
00:16:43.090 --> 00:16:45.730
But then mission managers failed to reacquire

385
00:16:45.730 --> 00:16:48.090
a downlink signal when the orbiter reappeared

386
00:16:48.090 --> 00:16:51.030
from behind the planet. Now one possibility

387
00:16:51.270 --> 00:16:53.790
is that Maven may have defaulted into a safe

388
00:16:53.790 --> 00:16:56.670
mode in the process changing its attitude or

389
00:16:56.670 --> 00:16:59.390
antenna positioning. That could have resulted

390
00:16:59.390 --> 00:17:01.190
in the probe's high gain antenna becoming

391
00:17:01.190 --> 00:17:03.390
misaligned with the Earth, preventing normal

392
00:17:03.390 --> 00:17:06.070
communications to try and resolve the issue.

393
00:17:06.070 --> 00:17:08.070
If that's the case, mission managers are now

394
00:17:08.070 --> 00:17:10.150
broadcasting continuous instructions to the

395
00:17:10.150 --> 00:17:12.590
spacecraft in the hope that it may pick up

396
00:17:12.590 --> 00:17:14.950
part of the signal and re establish contact.

397
00:17:15.840 --> 00:17:18.120
Now the communications being sent includes a

398
00:17:18.120 --> 00:17:20.400
sequence of contingency commands that target

399
00:17:20.560 --> 00:17:23.240
known safe mode and attitude control recovery

400
00:17:23.240 --> 00:17:26.160
paths. Maven has been orbiting

401
00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:29.000
Mars for over a decade. It is studying how

402
00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:31.880
radiation in the solar wind strips atmosphere

403
00:17:31.880 --> 00:17:34.120
away from the Red planet, a process which

404
00:17:34.120 --> 00:17:36.840
over billions of years has turned Mars from a

405
00:17:36.840 --> 00:17:39.040
warm wet world with a thick atmosphere

406
00:17:39.200 --> 00:17:41.250
capable of supporting liquid water and

407
00:17:41.250 --> 00:17:44.010
therefore possibly life into the freeze dried

408
00:17:44.010 --> 00:17:45.530
desert it's become today.

409
00:17:46.650 --> 00:17:49.130
Mavens also served as a key communications

410
00:17:49.130 --> 00:17:51.970
relay satellite linking Mars surface missions

411
00:17:51.970 --> 00:17:54.170
like the Curiosity and Perseverance rovers

412
00:17:54.170 --> 00:17:57.089
with Earth. Other Mars orbiters including the

413
00:17:57.089 --> 00:17:59.330
Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter, Odyssey and the

414
00:17:59.330 --> 00:18:01.300
Mars Trace Gas Orbiter, are taking up the

415
00:18:01.300 --> 00:18:03.580
slack to keep science going down on the Red

416
00:18:03.580 --> 00:18:06.380
planet's surface. But they're all a lot older

417
00:18:06.380 --> 00:18:08.950
than Maven, so it'd be nice to have it back.

418
00:18:09.590 --> 00:18:11.790
Needless to say, whatever happens will keep

419
00:18:11.790 --> 00:18:14.470
you informed. This is space,

420
00:18:14.470 --> 00:18:14.870
time.

421
00:18:30.550 --> 00:18:31.270
And time.

422
00:18:31.270 --> 00:18:32.790
Now to take a brief look at some of the other

423
00:18:32.790 --> 00:18:34.800
stories making use in science. The this week

424
00:18:34.800 --> 00:18:37.640
with the Science report, a new Study

425
00:18:37.640 --> 00:18:40.280
of the 2022 Hunga Tonga eruption

426
00:18:40.280 --> 00:18:43.240
suggests that a gaseous seal created pressure

427
00:18:43.240 --> 00:18:46.000
in the volcano acting like a cork, which

428
00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:48.800
eventually led to the massive explosion whose

429
00:18:48.800 --> 00:18:51.400
impact were felt worldwide. The

430
00:18:51.400 --> 00:18:52.960
findings, reported in the Journal of

431
00:18:52.960 --> 00:18:55.400
Volcanology and Geothermal Research, claim

432
00:18:55.400 --> 00:18:57.680
that the energy required to bring such a huge

433
00:18:57.680 --> 00:18:59.640
ash cloud from beneath the waves and into the

434
00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:02.110
atmosphere must have been comparable with the

435
00:19:02.110 --> 00:19:04.670
1883 Krakatoa explosion in

436
00:19:04.670 --> 00:19:07.470
Indonesia. If the authors are correct,

437
00:19:07.470 --> 00:19:10.230
this gas seal buildup trigger might be found

438
00:19:10.230 --> 00:19:12.630
in all plinian or explosive volcanic

439
00:19:12.630 --> 00:19:15.430
eruptions. And if that's true, it means

440
00:19:15.430 --> 00:19:17.590
early warning systems could be trained to

441
00:19:17.590 --> 00:19:20.390
detect a lack of leaking gases, suggesting

442
00:19:20.390 --> 00:19:22.910
that a buildup is underway and an explosion

443
00:19:22.910 --> 00:19:25.750
could take place. A

444
00:19:25.750 --> 00:19:28.310
new study has found shared genetic patterns

445
00:19:28.310 --> 00:19:30.590
across a range of common psychiatric

446
00:19:30.590 --> 00:19:33.230
disorders. The findings reported in the

447
00:19:33.230 --> 00:19:35.550
journal Nature found Broad genetic patterns

448
00:19:35.550 --> 00:19:37.870
across 14 different psychiatric conditions,

449
00:19:38.030 --> 00:19:40.350
including schizophrenia, depression and

450
00:19:40.350 --> 00:19:43.150
substance use disorders. The authors looked

451
00:19:43.150 --> 00:19:45.310
at the DNA from more than a million people,

452
00:19:45.550 --> 00:19:48.350
finding five key genetic factors that explain

453
00:19:48.350 --> 00:19:50.350
the majority of genetic variances in these

454
00:19:50.350 --> 00:19:52.750
disorders and that could connect different

455
00:19:52.750 --> 00:19:55.750
sets of conditions. The authors say the new

456
00:19:55.750 --> 00:19:58.430
findings could help improve diagnosis and

457
00:19:58.430 --> 00:19:59.550
lead to new treatments.

458
00:20:01.400 --> 00:20:03.960
Paleontologists have uncovered a 66 million

459
00:20:03.960 --> 00:20:06.520
year old mosasaur tooth in North Dakota.

460
00:20:06.920 --> 00:20:09.080
The findings suggest that at least some

461
00:20:09.080 --> 00:20:11.680
mosasaurs may have hunted in rivers as well

462
00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:14.640
as the open sea. The discovery, reported in

463
00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:17.440
the journal BMC Zoology, may represent the

464
00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:19.720
first evidence of a mosasaur hunting

465
00:20:19.720 --> 00:20:22.200
freshwater prey in the Hell Creek formation.

466
00:20:22.840 --> 00:20:25.320
Mosasaurs were giant aquatic lizard like

467
00:20:25.320 --> 00:20:28.150
reptiles that grew to 12 meters or longer and

468
00:20:28.150 --> 00:20:30.710
lived during the age of dinosaurs. The

469
00:20:30.710 --> 00:20:33.110
authors propose that members of this mesosaur

470
00:20:33.110 --> 00:20:35.230
group may have been opportunistic predators

471
00:20:35.310 --> 00:20:38.030
occupying a similar niche back then to modern

472
00:20:38.030 --> 00:20:40.310
day saltwater crocodiles that may have

473
00:20:40.310 --> 00:20:42.510
adapted to a freshwater environment in

474
00:20:42.510 --> 00:20:44.430
response to falling salt levels in the

475
00:20:44.430 --> 00:20:47.030
western Interior Seaway, gradually entering

476
00:20:47.030 --> 00:20:49.150
the river channels of Hell Creek as the

477
00:20:49.150 --> 00:20:50.350
seaway receded.

478
00:20:51.790 --> 00:20:53.750
A new study reported in the Journal of the

479
00:20:53.750 --> 00:20:55.910
American Medical association claims that

480
00:20:55.910 --> 00:20:58.370
acupuncture treatment for lower back pain has

481
00:20:58.370 --> 00:21:00.690
resulted in greater improvement in physical

482
00:21:00.690 --> 00:21:03.010
function and reduced pain compared to

483
00:21:03.010 --> 00:21:05.090
patients who received conventional medical

484
00:21:05.090 --> 00:21:07.970
care alone. But as the skeptics Tim

485
00:21:07.970 --> 00:21:10.250
Mendham points out, the studies left out some

486
00:21:10.250 --> 00:21:12.930
critical details and those details prevent us

487
00:21:12.930 --> 00:21:14.570
from getting an accurate picture of the

488
00:21:14.570 --> 00:21:16.850
research or the amount of true scientific

489
00:21:16.850 --> 00:21:17.890
rigour involved.

490
00:21:18.290 --> 00:21:20.980
Tim Mendham: This is a study done that, was funded by the

491
00:21:20.980 --> 00:21:23.580
National Institute of health in the US in

492
00:21:23.580 --> 00:21:26.320
which they enrolled 800 people and looked at

493
00:21:26.320 --> 00:21:28.440
giving some acupuncture and some ordinary

494
00:21:28.440 --> 00:21:30.200
treatment, established treatments and seen

495
00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:31.680
the difference. And they were saying that

496
00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:34.440
those who had acupuncture at 3 months, 6

497
00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:36.600
months, 12 months, feeling better about their

498
00:21:36.600 --> 00:21:38.520
lower back pain than those who are having

499
00:21:38.520 --> 00:21:40.360
ordinary treatments. Now. Interesting

500
00:21:40.680 --> 00:21:42.440
starting point. And they're looking at older

501
00:21:42.440 --> 00:21:44.600
people, which they reckon is a cohort that

502
00:21:44.600 --> 00:21:46.720
doesn't get studied a lot. And then they

503
00:21:46.720 --> 00:21:48.570
throw in a bit about, acupuncture being a

504
00:21:48.570 --> 00:21:50.170
thing that's been around for a long, long

505
00:21:50.170 --> 00:21:51.810
time in the East. Point out a few issues.

506
00:21:51.810 --> 00:21:53.710
People with chronic back pain are desperate

507
00:21:53.710 --> 00:21:55.750
to get rid of it. Absolutely. And anything

508
00:21:55.750 --> 00:21:58.110
they think will get rid of it if they firmly

509
00:21:58.110 --> 00:22:00.150
believe will make them feel better. Because

510
00:22:00.150 --> 00:22:02.270
pain is as much an emotional and mental thing

511
00:22:02.270 --> 00:22:04.350
as it is a physical thing. And how you react,

512
00:22:04.350 --> 00:22:05.910
you know, your threshold to pain and that

513
00:22:05.910 --> 00:22:07.470
sort of stuff. So therefore, you know People

514
00:22:07.470 --> 00:22:09.189
who are looking desperately for a treatment.

515
00:22:09.189 --> 00:22:10.190
They've probably been having medical

516
00:22:10.190 --> 00:22:11.950
treatment for years and they don't feel any

517
00:22:11.950 --> 00:22:14.460
better. So, they enrolled 800 people. Now,

518
00:22:14.460 --> 00:22:16.380
this story, and this is where they have

519
00:22:16.380 --> 00:22:17.940
problems with it. They don't say how they

520
00:22:17.940 --> 00:22:19.640
enroll those people. Obviously they've

521
00:22:19.640 --> 00:22:21.840
enrolled people with chronic back pain, lower

522
00:22:21.840 --> 00:22:24.560
back pain. Were they disenchanted people with

523
00:22:24.560 --> 00:22:26.120
medical treatment? Were they just people with

524
00:22:26.120 --> 00:22:28.760
back pain? Were they pro. Alternative people?

525
00:22:28.760 --> 00:22:30.920
The story doesn't say. It doesn't say where

526
00:22:30.920 --> 00:22:32.960
they got the 800 participants. They say they

527
00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:34.360
enrolled them. But were these people

528
00:22:34.360 --> 00:22:36.600
volunteering themselves? And that impacts on

529
00:22:36.600 --> 00:22:38.240
the veracity of the results you get. If

530
00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:39.840
people are volunteering themselves, they tend

531
00:22:39.840 --> 00:22:41.920
to want a certain result. Then they say they

532
00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:43.780
treated some with acupuncture and some, not.

533
00:22:43.860 --> 00:22:45.540
Normally, if you're doing an acupuncture

534
00:22:46.050 --> 00:22:48.130
test, you would have false acupuncture and

535
00:22:48.130 --> 00:22:49.570
real acupuncture. In other words, you have a

536
00:22:49.570 --> 00:22:49.890
needle.

537
00:22:49.890 --> 00:22:51.610
Stuart Gary: There are certain spots where the needle is

538
00:22:51.610 --> 00:22:54.330
supposed to go. So the placebo would be to

539
00:22:54.330 --> 00:22:55.410
not use those spots.

540
00:22:55.410 --> 00:22:57.290
Tim Mendham: And also. Yeah, that's true. This is the

541
00:22:57.290 --> 00:22:59.610
meridian idea of the human body has all these

542
00:22:59.610 --> 00:23:01.170
sort of nerve lines through it, and you have.

543
00:23:01.170 --> 00:23:03.810
There's so many meridian points that you have

544
00:23:03.810 --> 00:23:05.290
to stick a needle into it. And the other ones

545
00:23:05.290 --> 00:23:06.650
you don't stick a needle into because it

546
00:23:06.650 --> 00:23:08.130
doesn't have the same effect. That's a bad

547
00:23:08.130 --> 00:23:09.770
start. There's no proof of this meridian

548
00:23:09.770 --> 00:23:11.130
system at all. The other thing is that there

549
00:23:11.130 --> 00:23:13.010
should be a placebo acupuncture, which is a

550
00:23:13.010 --> 00:23:14.850
thing where the needle actually goes into,

551
00:23:15.010 --> 00:23:17.490
like a false knife we use in the movies.

552
00:23:17.710 --> 00:23:18.990
Stick something with a knife and the blade

553
00:23:18.990 --> 00:23:21.110
actually withdraws into the handle. So people

554
00:23:21.110 --> 00:23:22.310
think they're being jabbed with an

555
00:23:22.310 --> 00:23:24.070
acupuncture needle, but all they're feeling

556
00:23:24.070 --> 00:23:25.870
is the pressure and the needle itself is not

557
00:23:25.870 --> 00:23:28.310
penetrating. Okay, so this story about this

558
00:23:28.310 --> 00:23:30.350
test doesn't talk about using placebo

559
00:23:30.350 --> 00:23:32.550
acupuncture as opposed to real acupuncture,

560
00:23:32.550 --> 00:23:35.390
as opposed to non acupuncture treatments. So

561
00:23:35.390 --> 00:23:37.310
what you're suggesting is that these people

562
00:23:37.310 --> 00:23:39.390
are getting real acupuncture, are they? And

563
00:23:39.390 --> 00:23:41.520
that people who are, coming to a test might

564
00:23:41.520 --> 00:23:43.800
be more inclined to want acupuncture and who

565
00:23:43.800 --> 00:23:45.760
are disenchanted with other treatments. And

566
00:23:45.760 --> 00:23:48.160
therefore they might be suggesting that their

567
00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:50.180
back pain is going because they want the

568
00:23:50.180 --> 00:23:52.700
treatment to work. And that's a major issue

569
00:23:52.700 --> 00:23:54.380
when you're doing a test of any sort of

570
00:23:54.380 --> 00:23:55.940
treatment like this, especially one which is

571
00:23:55.940 --> 00:23:58.260
sort of so emotionally based. And so if

572
00:23:58.260 --> 00:24:00.100
someone has other conditions that you can

573
00:24:00.100 --> 00:24:01.340
probably test them, probably pretty

574
00:24:01.340 --> 00:24:03.420
definitively. Testing pain is a hard one to

575
00:24:03.420 --> 00:24:05.339
do. And it's a matter of sort of getting big

576
00:24:05.339 --> 00:24:07.220
numbers, etc. And getting some sort of

577
00:24:07.220 --> 00:24:10.140
results over a large cohort of people, 800

578
00:24:10.140 --> 00:24:11.500
people in this case. You don't know where

579
00:24:11.500 --> 00:24:12.700
they came from, you don't know how they got

580
00:24:12.700 --> 00:24:13.900
them. You don't know what their background

581
00:24:13.900 --> 00:24:15.340
is, at least as far as this particular

582
00:24:15.420 --> 00:24:17.300
summary goes. You know, if they had false

583
00:24:17.300 --> 00:24:19.060
acupuncture treatment or real acupuncture

584
00:24:19.060 --> 00:24:20.790
treatment, those who did, they should have

585
00:24:20.790 --> 00:24:22.470
had both. To differentiate between real

586
00:24:22.470 --> 00:24:24.190
acupuncture and false acupuncture and

587
00:24:24.190 --> 00:24:26.220
placebo, and or alternative treatments.

588
00:24:26.300 --> 00:24:28.660
Overall, the evidence for acupuncture is not

589
00:24:28.660 --> 00:24:31.540
good and the background to it is not good. It

590
00:24:31.540 --> 00:24:33.780
might have been a traditional treatment in

591
00:24:33.780 --> 00:24:35.980
China and places like that over hundreds, and

592
00:24:35.980 --> 00:24:37.820
hundreds of years. It was certainly promoted

593
00:24:37.820 --> 00:24:40.660
by Mao Zedong way back in the 60s and

594
00:24:40.660 --> 00:24:43.260
70s as an alternative to Western treatment.

595
00:24:43.260 --> 00:24:45.180
I'm not suggesting that this is good Chinese

596
00:24:45.180 --> 00:24:46.980
stuff and therefore we have to. It's got

597
00:24:46.980 --> 00:24:48.700
thousands of years behind it. The idea was

598
00:24:48.700 --> 00:24:50.260
that because in China they couldn't get

599
00:24:50.260 --> 00:24:51.460
proper clinics to treat.

600
00:24:51.670 --> 00:24:53.390
Stuart Gary: Yeah, but he used Western medicine, didn't

601
00:24:53.390 --> 00:24:55.110
he? He never relied on he personally because.

602
00:24:55.110 --> 00:24:56.550
Tim Mendham: Because they couldn't get Western treatments

603
00:24:56.550 --> 00:24:58.030
and clinics and that sort of stuff. The story

604
00:24:58.030 --> 00:24:59.990
goes he was promoting these alternative

605
00:24:59.990 --> 00:25:02.030
traditional medicine techniques because they

606
00:25:02.030 --> 00:25:03.870
were just easier to do, not because they

607
00:25:03.870 --> 00:25:04.110
worked.

608
00:25:04.110 --> 00:25:06.710
Stuart Gary: That's the skeptics. Tim Mendham. And this is

609
00:25:06.710 --> 00:25:07.430
Space Time.

610
00:25:23.120 --> 00:25:26.040
And that's the show for now. Space Time is

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Voice Over Guy: You've been listening to Space Time with

631
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Stuart Gary This has been another quality

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podcast production from Bitesz.com