S27E129: Martian Volcanic Discovery, Exomoon's Volcanic Cloud, and Solar Maximum's Impact

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This is Spacetime Series 27
Episode 129 for broadcast on the

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25th of October 2024. Coming up
on Spacetime, the first evidence

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of a volcanic splatter cone on
Mars, a distant exoplanet that

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may host a volcanic Moon similar
to Jupiter's Io, and a new study

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suggests the Sun may now be
reaching the maximum period of

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Space Weather events, at least
during the current solar cycle.

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All that and more coming up on
Spacetime.

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Welcome to Space Time with
Stuart Gary.

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Scientists have detected what
appears to be the first ever

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evidence of a volcanic splatter
cone on the Red Planet Mars. One

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of the study's authors, Ian
Flynn from the University Of

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Idaho, says the cone appears to
be similar to ones found here on

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Earth. Flynn identified the cone
while studying an extinct

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Martian volcanic vent.

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He then undertook a detailed
morphological investigation and

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ballistic modelling of the
feature, and that supported his

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conclusion. Flynn says splatter
cones are common on Earth, and

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it would be extremely unlikely
that they didn't also exist on

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Mars. Now, since splatter cones
can only form under the right

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conditions, Their presence gives
scientists a benchmark to shoot

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for when simulating Martian
volcanoes.

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Splatter cones are created by
hot lumps of flying lava falling

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onto the surface during an
explosive volcanic eruption,

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especially during sustained
periods of lava fountaining.

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Flynn says they're found in many
places on Earth, including

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Iceland and the craters of the
Moon National Monument And

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Preserve in Idaho.

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However, until now, there's
never been any solid evidence

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for their existence on the Red
Planet. Flynn says the

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similarity between the Martian
and Icelandic splatter cones

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indicates that the eruption
dynamics occurring in Iceland

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also occur on Mars. He says it
expands the range of volcanic

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eruption styles possible on the
Red Planet.

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This discovery can provide clues
about how volcanic eruptions

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happen on Mars, specifically
regarding the gases in the magma

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and the environmental conditions
at the time the eruption

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occurred. It's also further
confirmation that Icelandic and

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Indian volcanoes are erupting
now in the same way volcanoes

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erupted millions of years ago on
the Red Planet.

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Flynn says the discovery also
fills a distinct observational

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gap in Martian volcanology, and
it lays the groundwork for

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future investigations of
splatter-cone features on the

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Red Planet. Mars, of course, is
also home to Olympus Mons. That

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's the largest volcano in our
solar system.

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Olympus Mons is a gigantic
shield volcano over 21.9

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kilometres or 72,000 feet high.
That's about two and a half

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times the elevation of Mount
Everest above sea level. It's

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associated with the Tharsis
Montes volcanic region of Mars.

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Olympus Mons is the youngest of
the large volcanoes on the Red

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Planet, having last erupted an
estimated 25 million years ago.

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This is Space Time. Still to
come... A distant exoplanet that

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may also host a volcanic Moon
just like Jupiter's Io, and a

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new study suggests the Sun may
now be reaching the maximum

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period of Space Weather events,
at least during the current

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solar cycle. All that and more
still to come on Space Time.

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A new study has revealed
possible signs of a rocky

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volcanic Moon orbiting an
exoplanet some 635 light-years

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away. An exoplanet is a planet
orbiting a star other than the

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Sun. The biggest clue for this
potential discovery is a sodium

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cloud that is close to, but
slightly out of sync with the

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exoplanet it's orbiting. That
exoplanet's a Saturn-sized gas

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giant named WASP-49B.

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Within our solar system, gas
emissions from Jupiter's

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volcanic Moon Io create a very
similar phenomenon. Although

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astronomers are yet to discover
a so-called Exomoon, that is a

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Moon orbiting a planet outside
our solar system, multiple

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candidates have been identified.
It's likely that these planetary

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companions have gone undetected
because they're too small and

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dim for current telescopes to
detect.

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The sodium cloud around WASP-49B
was first detected back in 2017.

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Catching the attention of Opura
Osa from Caltech. Osa has spent

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years investigating how exomoons
could be detected by their

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volcanic activity.

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For example, Io, the most
volcanic body in our solar

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system, is constantly spewing
sulfur dioxide, sodium,

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potassium and other gases that
can form vast clouds around

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Jupiter up to a thousand times
the gas giant's radius. It's

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possible that astronomers
looking at other star systems

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could detect a similar gas cloud
like Io's even if the Moon

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itself is too small to see.

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Both WASP-49B and its host star
are composed mostly of hydrogen

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and helium, with trace amounts
of sodium. But neither contains

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enough sodium to account for
this cloud, which appears to be

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coming from a source that's
producing roughly 100,000

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kilograms of sodium every
second. Now even if the star or

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planet could produce that much
sodium, it's unclear what sort

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of mechanism could eject that
into space.

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So Ozu and colleagues set out to
try and determine if the likely

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source is a volcanic Exomoon.
Now the work proved challenging

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because of the great distance to
this system. Also the star,

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planet and cloud often overlap.
Occupying the same tiny faraway

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pointed space.

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That meant the authors had to
watch the system for quite a

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long time. Their findings,
reported in the Astrophysical

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Journal Letters, found several
pieces of evidence suggesting

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that this cloud was created by a
separate body orbiting the

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planet, although additional
research will be needed to

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confirm the cloud's behaviour.

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For example, twice their
observations indicated the cloud

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suddenly increased in size, as
if it was being refilled when it

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wasn't next to the planet. They
also observed the cloud moving

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faster than the planet in a way
that would seem impossible

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unless it was being generated by
another body moving independent

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of and faster than the planet.

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And Oza thinks this is a really
crucial piece of evidence. Also,

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the cloud appears to be moving
in the opposite direction, which

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physics tells us it should be
going if it were part of the

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planet's atmosphere. Now, while
these observations have all

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intrigued the research team,
they would still need to observe

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the system for far longer.

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To be sure of the cloud's true
orbit and structure. For part of

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their sleuthing, the authors
used the European Southern

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Observatory's VLT, or Very Large
Telescope, in Chile. They

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eventually established that the
clouds located high above the

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planet's atmosphere, much like
the cloud of gas Io produces

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around Jupiter.

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And they also used computer
models to illustrate the Exomoon

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scenario and then compared that
with the data they have. The

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exoplanet WASP-49B orbits its
host star every 2.8 Earth days

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with clock-like regularity. But
the cloud appeared and

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disappeared behind the star, or
behind the planet, at seemingly

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irregular intervals.

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Using their model, the authors
showed that a Moon with about an

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8-hour orbit around the planet
could explain the cloud's motion

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and activity, including the way
it sometimes seemed to move in

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front of the planet and didn't
seem to be associated with a

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particular region of the planet.
All in all, the evidence is

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really compelling. That
something other than the planet

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or the star are producing this
cloud.

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We know Io's volcanoes are
driven by Jupiter's gravity,

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which squeezes the Moon as it
gets closer to the planet, then

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reduces its grip as the Moon
moves away. This constant

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flexing, in and out, produces
friction in the tiny Moon's

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interior, leading to a process
called gravitational tidal

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volcanism.

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If WASP-49B has a Moon similar
in size to the Earth's, Hauser

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and colleagues estimate that the
rapid loss of mass combined with

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the squeezing from the planet's
gravity would eventually cause

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this little Moon to
disintegrate. He says if there

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really is a Moon there, it's
destined to have a very

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destructive ending. This report
from NASA TV.

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A rocky, volcanic Moon could be
orbiting a planet more than 600

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light-years from Earth. Exomoons
or moons around planets outside

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our solar system are likely too
small to see directly. But

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astronomers think volcanic
exomoons could make themselves

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known by creating massive clouds
of volcanic gas.

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A new study looked at a large
sodium cloud discovered in 2017

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near the exoplanet WASP-49B.

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Scientists found evidence that
the cloud is not produced by the

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planet or the star it orbits.
Instead, the motion of the cloud

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suggests it originated from
another object, possibly a

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volcanic Exomoon. To get to this
conclusion, researchers used a

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telescope on Earth to observe
the silhouettes of the cloud and

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the exoplanet as they passed in
front of the star.

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In one observation, the
researchers saw the sodium cloud

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moving faster than the planet
and away from Earth. If the

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cloud was coming from the
exoplanet, the scientists would

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expect it to move toward Earth.
They think this means the cloud

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was coming from a different
source, like an Exomoon.

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Jupiter's Moon Io also spews a
Volcanic Cloud into space. It

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pumps sodium, sulfur, and other
gases, creating a massive cloud

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a thousand times wider than
Jupiter. Io has volcanoes

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because Jupiter's gravity
squeezes the Moon's interior,

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heating it.

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Scientists think WASP-49B's
gravitational squeezing is

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likely even more intense and may
eventually cause its Exomoon to

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disintegrate. While more
observations are needed to

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confirm the existence of this
Exomoon, what researchers have

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found is promising.

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This is space-time. Still to
come... Scientists say the Sun

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could be reaching the maximum
period of Space Weather events

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as it reaches solar max for
Solar Cycle 25. And later in the

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Science Report, a new study has
found the rise in human life

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expectancy is slowing down
dramatically. All that and more

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still to come on Space Time.

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Representatives from NASA, the
National Oceanographic And

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Atmospheric Administration,
NOAA, together with the

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International Solar Cycle
Prediction Panel, have announced

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that the Sun has now reached its
solar maximum period, which

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could continue for the next year
or so.

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The Sun's 11-year solar cycle is
a natural geomagnetic cycle

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during which the Sun transitions
between low and high magnetic

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activity. At the height of the
solar cycle, known as solar

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maximum or solar max for short,
the Sun's magnetic poles will

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flip, reversing polarity. So the
Sun's North Pole becomes South

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and the Sun's South Pole North.

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NASA and NOAA track sunspots to
determine and predict the

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progress of the solar cycle and
ultimately solar activity based

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on sunspots. Sunspots are cooler
and consequently darker regions

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on the Sun's surface caused by a
concentration of magnetic field

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lines breaking through the
surface and extending out into

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space from deep below.

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Sunspots are the visible
component of active regions,

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areas of intense and complex
magnetic fields on the Sun that

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are the source of solar flares
and coronal mass ejections.

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Solar flares are blasts of
energy out from the surface,

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caused when magnetic field lines
snap.

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If these explosions are powerful
enough, they can fling solar

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material and magnetic field out
into space with them. That's a

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coronal mass ejection. During
solar maximum, the number of

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sunspots and therefore the
amount of solar activity

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increases. NASA's Director of
Space Weather, Jamie Favors,

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says the increase in activity
provides an exciting opportunity

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to learn more about our nearest
star.

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But it also causes real effects
on Earth and throughout our

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solar system. The solar activity
strongly influences conditions

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in space known as Space Weather.
This can affect satellites and

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astronauts, as well as
communications and navigation

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systems, and even power grids on
the ground.

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When the Sun is most active,
Space Weather events become more

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frequent and more violent. And
we've seen that in recent

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months, with solar activity
leading to increased auroral

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visibility, as well as impacts
on satellites and

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infrastructure. During May, a
barrage of large solar flares

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and coronal mass ejections
launched clouds of charged

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particles and magnetic fields
towards the Earth.

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That created the strongest
geomagnetic storm in two decades

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and possibly among the strongest
displays of auroral activity on

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record in the last 500 years.
And of course another strong

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solar event hit the Earth
earlier this month, an X9.1

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class solar flare on October
3rd.

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It was the most powerful blast
in the current solar cycle so

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far. An X class donates the most
intense solar flares, although

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NUMBER provides more information
about its strength. Scientists

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anticipate that the maximum
phase of the current solar cycle

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will last probably another year
or so, and then the Sun will

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enter its declining phase, which
will lead back to the next solar

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minimum.

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00:13:45,793 --> 00:13:49,595
The current cycle, classified as
Solar Cycle 25, began its solar

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00:13:49,635 --> 00:13:53,758
minimum in late 2019. That means
we shouldn't expect the next

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00:13:53,778 --> 00:13:57,701
solar minimum until 2030. Solar
cycles have been tracked by

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astronomers since Galileo first
observed sunspots in the 1600s.

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00:14:02,264 --> 00:14:05,202
But they're not all the same.
Each solar cycle is just a

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00:14:05,202 --> 00:14:08,485
little bit different. Some peak
for longer periods, others for

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00:14:08,585 --> 00:14:11,287
shorter amounts of time, and
others have smaller peaks that

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00:14:11,327 --> 00:14:14,770
last longer. The last solar
cycle was considered fairly

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00:14:14,870 --> 00:14:17,672
mild, but the current solar
cycle is showing far higher

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00:14:17,712 --> 00:14:19,213
levels of sunspot activity.

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00:14:19,974 --> 00:14:23,056
NOAA anticipates additional
solar and geomagnetic storms

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00:14:23,116 --> 00:14:26,659
during the current solar maximum
period, and that will lead to

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00:14:26,719 --> 00:14:30,082
opportunities to spot more
auroral activity over the next

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00:14:30,102 --> 00:14:32,784
few months, as well as the
potential for technology

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00:14:32,904 --> 00:14:33,445
impacts.

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00:14:34,245 --> 00:14:37,149
Interestingly, though less
frequent, scientists often see a

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00:14:37,189 --> 00:14:40,152
significant level of storm
activity during the declining

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00:14:40,273 --> 00:14:43,256
phase of the solar cycle.
That'll be something they'll be

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00:14:43,296 --> 00:14:46,680
looking out for this time round
as well. Of course, one of the

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00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:50,104
big advantages now compared to
the last solar cycle is NASA's

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00:14:50,184 --> 00:14:53,288
Parker Solar Probe mission,
which is exploring the Sun and

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00:14:53,288 --> 00:14:53,969
its activity.

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00:14:54,650 --> 00:14:57,912
In December, Parker will make
its closest ever approach to the

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00:14:57,992 --> 00:15:01,255
Sun's surface. In fact, the
spacecraft will swoop down to

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00:15:01,275 --> 00:15:04,777
just 6.1 million kilometres
above the visible surface of the

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00:15:04,837 --> 00:15:08,500
Sun. That'll be the closest any
man-made object has been to the

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00:15:08,580 --> 00:15:10,582
Sun. And it doesn't end there.

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00:15:11,282 --> 00:15:13,864
Because of the Sun's immense
gravity, the spacecraft will be

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00:15:13,904 --> 00:15:18,407
moving at over 692,000
kilometres an hour. That'll make

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00:15:18,407 --> 00:15:21,529
the Parker Solar Probe the
fastest man-made object ever

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00:15:21,610 --> 00:15:25,455
flown. The December flyby will
be the first of three planned

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00:15:25,495 --> 00:15:28,676
close approaches by Parker at
this distance, and that will

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00:15:28,696 --> 00:15:31,538
help scientists better
understand solar weather at its

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00:15:31,618 --> 00:15:32,098
source.

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00:15:32,678 --> 00:15:35,179
NASA is also launching several
other missions over the next

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00:15:35,219 --> 00:15:37,380
year or so that will further
help scientists better

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00:15:37,420 --> 00:15:40,981
understand Space Weather as it
impacts across the solar system.

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These are important because
Space Weather predictions are

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00:15:44,423 --> 00:15:47,244
critical for supporting
spacecraft and astronauts,

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00:15:47,344 --> 00:15:49,265
including NASA's Artemis
campaign.

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Remember, Artemis astronauts
will be flying to the Moon. That

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00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,483
's well beyond the protective
shield offered by Earth's

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00:15:55,583 --> 00:15:59,465
magnetosphere. So surveying the
space environment will be a

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00:15:59,545 --> 00:16:02,926
vital part of understanding and
mitigating astronauts' exposure

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00:16:02,966 --> 00:16:06,788
to space radiation. This report
from NASA TV.

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00:16:07,328 --> 00:16:10,870
Roughly every 11 years, the Sun
's magnetic field completely

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00:16:10,930 --> 00:16:15,312
flips. This means the Sun's
north and South magnetic poles

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00:16:15,392 --> 00:16:19,533
switch places. Around the time
of this flip, solar activity

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00:16:19,673 --> 00:16:20,774
gradually ramps up.

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00:16:22,034 --> 00:16:25,755
The Sun will have more sunspots
and solar eruptions like solar

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00:16:25,815 --> 00:16:29,676
flares and coronal mass
ejections. The peak of this

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00:16:29,756 --> 00:16:31,877
activity is known as solar
maximum.

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00:16:32,877 --> 00:16:36,298
Solar maximum marks the halfway
point of the solar cycle and

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00:16:36,378 --> 00:16:39,159
usually means a year or two of
high solar activity.

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00:16:40,359 --> 00:16:43,900
During this time, we might see
more severe geomagnetic storms

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00:16:43,900 --> 00:16:47,061
at Earth, which trigger aurora,
but also threaten our

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00:16:47,081 --> 00:16:49,942
communications, satellites, and
power grids.

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00:16:51,042 --> 00:16:54,511
NASA scientists continue to
study the solar cycle so we can

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00:16:54,571 --> 00:16:57,959
better understand solar activity
to protect our technology in

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00:16:57,999 --> 00:16:59,282
space and on Earth.

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This is Space Time.

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00:17:17,346 --> 00:17:19,488
And time now to take another
brief look at some of the other

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00:17:19,528 --> 00:17:22,210
stories making news in science
this week with the Science

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00:17:22,250 --> 00:17:26,033
Report. A new study has found
that the rise in human life

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00:17:26,073 --> 00:17:30,216
expectancy is slowing down. A
report in the journal Nature

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00:17:30,336 --> 00:17:33,259
analysed data from 10
high-income nations including

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00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:36,281
Australia and 7 other countries
with the longest-lived

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00:17:36,301 --> 00:17:37,262
populations.

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00:17:37,942 --> 00:17:41,085
They found that the rate of
increase has slowed down since

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00:17:41,105 --> 00:17:44,639
the 20th century. The authors
conclude that unless biological

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00:17:44,719 --> 00:17:48,300
ageing can be markedly slowed,
survival to the age of 100 is

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00:17:48,420 --> 00:17:53,601
unlikely to ever exceed 15% for
females and just 5% for males.

301
00:17:54,242 --> 00:17:57,262
They believe that humanity's
battle for long life may well

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00:17:57,282 --> 00:18:00,944
have largely been accomplished.
And they describe this as a

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00:18:00,984 --> 00:18:04,125
celebration of advances in
public health and medicine that

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00:18:04,165 --> 00:18:08,206
saw life expectancy increase by
around 30 years during the 20th

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00:18:08,246 --> 00:18:08,686
century.

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00:18:10,270 --> 00:18:13,913
A new study has found that even
low-risk alcohol drinking causes

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00:18:13,993 --> 00:18:16,836
higher mortality in adults over
the age of 60 with

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00:18:16,876 --> 00:18:21,079
health-related or socioeconomic
risk factors. A report in the

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00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:23,962
Journal Of The American Medical
Association looked at over

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00:18:23,982 --> 00:18:28,846
135,000 UK adults over the age
of 60 described as occasional to

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00:18:28,906 --> 00:18:32,069
high-risk drinkers based on
their daily alcohol intake.

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00:18:32,629 --> 00:18:35,552
They also examined possible
links between deaths, drinking

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00:18:35,712 --> 00:18:39,459
and health or socioeconomic
risks. They found that moderate

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00:18:39,459 --> 00:18:41,880
to high-risk drinking was
associated with more deaths

315
00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,362
overall, but lower moderate-risk
drinking was also linked to

316
00:18:45,442 --> 00:18:48,303
increased death rates,
especially cancer deaths, in

317
00:18:48,363 --> 00:18:51,105
adults scoring higher for
frailty or deprivation.

318
00:18:51,805 --> 00:18:54,546
Interestingly, this increase did
not affect those who preferred

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00:18:54,666 --> 00:18:58,528
wine or drank only with meals.
However, the authors caution

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00:18:58,669 --> 00:19:01,250
that this still requires further
investigation.

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00:19:02,878 --> 00:19:06,641
A new study warns that thawing
permafrost may be accelerating

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00:19:06,781 --> 00:19:10,343
Arctic riverbank erosion. A
report in the journal Nature

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00:19:10,463 --> 00:19:13,305
analysed the Koyukuk River in
Alaska using a novel

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00:19:13,385 --> 00:19:16,167
computational method that
allowed the researchers to study

325
00:19:16,227 --> 00:19:19,129
the river in a finer resolution
than possible with traditional

326
00:19:19,209 --> 00:19:20,050
satellite imagery.

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00:19:20,770 --> 00:19:23,452
They found that permafrost
reduced erosion in the

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00:19:23,492 --> 00:19:28,156
riverbanks by 47% compared to
scenarios in which no permafrost

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00:19:28,196 --> 00:19:32,078
was present. They also showed
that permafrost thawed. May lead

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00:19:32,078 --> 00:19:35,801
to a 30 to 100% increase in
river migration rates across the

331
00:19:35,901 --> 00:19:39,563
Arctic. However, they say it's
still uncertain how mechanisms

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00:19:39,663 --> 00:19:42,685
such as increased vegetation in
the wake of thawing permafrost

333
00:19:42,906 --> 00:19:45,988
may or may not strengthen
riverbanks from erosion.

334
00:19:47,649 --> 00:19:49,850
Well, one of the biggest topics
on the Australian political

335
00:19:49,910 --> 00:19:52,032
agenda at the moment is the
Labor government's

336
00:19:52,132 --> 00:19:56,453
Misinformation Disinformation
Internet Censor Bill. If passed,

337
00:19:56,593 --> 00:19:59,255
this legislation would allow the
government to determine what

338
00:19:59,296 --> 00:20:02,879
qualifies as truth and what must
be blocked for the public good.

339
00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,402
Now, importantly, this same
legislation would exempt

340
00:20:06,502 --> 00:20:10,526
politicians and selected
journalists from these laws. So,

341
00:20:11,067 --> 00:20:14,350
the real question for
Australians is can politicians

342
00:20:14,370 --> 00:20:18,314
and bureaucrats be trusted? Or
is this more likely to result in

343
00:20:18,294 --> 00:20:22,329
a sort of Orwellian Ministry Of
Truth? After all, these are the

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00:20:22,409 --> 00:20:25,872
same politicians and faceless
bureaucrats on both sides of the

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00:20:25,932 --> 00:20:28,634
aisle responsible for the
Medicare scare campaign.

346
00:20:28,815 --> 00:20:31,737
Claims that you're likely to get
COVID from pizza boxes,

347
00:20:31,977 --> 00:20:35,080
arresting a pregnant woman for
promoting an anti-lockdown rally

348
00:20:35,140 --> 00:20:38,423
while at the same time
supporting BLM marches, forcing

349
00:20:38,503 --> 00:20:41,786
social media companies to censor
and pull down thousands of posts

350
00:20:41,806 --> 00:20:44,588
criticising government,
including humorous memes.

351
00:20:45,269 --> 00:20:47,671
Then there are the classics,
like promotion of the Russia,

352
00:20:47,771 --> 00:20:50,873
Russia, Russia collusion hoax.
And false claims that the Hunter

353
00:20:50,913 --> 00:20:54,735
Biden laptop was disinformation
when in fact it was real. And of

354
00:20:54,755 --> 00:20:58,677
course the list goes on. Those
opposing the new legislation say

355
00:20:58,757 --> 00:21:01,618
people should basically be able
to say what they want as long as

356
00:21:01,618 --> 00:21:04,640
it doesn't cause harm or
encourage and promote violence.

357
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,921
And they should be treated as
publishers, responsible for

358
00:21:08,021 --> 00:21:11,063
everything they say and write
under existing laws of libel,

359
00:21:11,203 --> 00:21:14,809
slander and defamation, such as
rule publishers. Tim Mendham

360
00:21:14,969 --> 00:21:17,571
says while Australian sceptics
don't have a position on the

361
00:21:17,591 --> 00:21:20,753
legislation itself, their views
on the freedom of speech are

362
00:21:20,773 --> 00:21:21,174
clear.

363
00:21:21,454 --> 00:21:24,056
It's a pretty important issue. I
mean, it's something that people

364
00:21:24,356 --> 00:21:27,519
raise all the time as their
freedom of speech. It's a vexing

365
00:21:27,539 --> 00:21:30,501
issue, and people keep referring
to earlier references and

366
00:21:30,501 --> 00:21:33,284
things, some to the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights,

367
00:21:33,384 --> 00:21:36,506
some to the US Constitution,
which is strange in Australia

368
00:21:36,506 --> 00:21:38,928
because it doesn't apply, some
to the Magna Carta, et cetera.

369
00:21:38,928 --> 00:21:42,271
So what we're talking about here
is people's right to state their

370
00:21:42,331 --> 00:21:45,493
point of view, and there is.
Generally agree that you do have

371
00:21:45,493 --> 00:21:48,595
the right to state your point of
view. Some people, regardless of

372
00:21:48,595 --> 00:21:51,917
how obnoxious your point of view
is. But then the other issue is

373
00:21:51,937 --> 00:21:55,559
about lying, misinformation and
disinformation. Misinformation

374
00:21:55,619 --> 00:21:58,360
is things that are wrong.
Disinformation is consciously

375
00:21:58,620 --> 00:21:59,861
stating things that are wrong.

376
00:22:00,101 --> 00:22:02,903
So you're disinforming people.
And this often happens with

377
00:22:02,903 --> 00:22:05,004
people who are making claims,
say, about the anti-vax

378
00:22:05,104 --> 00:22:07,845
movement. They will make lots of
claims that they will say are

379
00:22:07,925 --> 00:22:10,507
true, but are lies. I won't even
say mistakes. Let's call them

380
00:22:10,567 --> 00:22:12,988
lies. And the question then is,
could you have... Freedom of

381
00:22:13,008 --> 00:22:15,731
speech to say lies and most
people would say no.

382
00:22:16,131 --> 00:22:19,414
It's fine to express your
opinion, I don't like you, blah,

383
00:22:19,414 --> 00:22:22,197
blah, blah, but you can't say I
don't like you because you do

384
00:22:22,377 --> 00:22:24,940
this or because you are this
sort of person, which may be a

385
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,182
lie. So as soon as you say you
have to stop saying that you are

386
00:22:27,262 --> 00:22:29,584
impinging on their freedom of
speech. But the thing to keep in

387
00:22:29,604 --> 00:22:33,127
mind is, skeptics need to keep
it in mind as well, there is no

388
00:22:33,227 --> 00:22:35,550
such thing as an absolute
freedom of speech.

389
00:22:35,770 --> 00:22:39,593
It's a thing which is a state of
applied. It is a nice idea, and

390
00:22:39,613 --> 00:22:42,535
that's the way it is in the
Universal Declaration of Human

391
00:22:42,595 --> 00:22:45,117
Rights, which came out after the
Second World War. It's a set of

392
00:22:45,137 --> 00:22:47,839
agreements that these principles
should apply, and people say,

393
00:22:47,879 --> 00:22:50,060
yep, they should apply, but
they're not legally binding. And

394
00:22:50,060 --> 00:22:51,561
that's what a lot of people
don't understand.

395
00:22:51,621 --> 00:22:54,343
You may take elements of that
and write them into your law,

396
00:22:54,403 --> 00:22:57,265
and then it does become legally
binding, but the Declaration of

397
00:22:57,305 --> 00:23:00,247
Human Rights is not a legally
binding document. What is a

398
00:23:00,328 --> 00:23:02,689
legally binding document when
you agree to it is the

399
00:23:02,929 --> 00:23:05,951
International Covenant on Civil
and Political Rights, which

400
00:23:05,991 --> 00:23:08,373
basically takes... It's the
Universal Declaration of Human

401
00:23:08,433 --> 00:23:09,674
Rights that makes it into the
law.

402
00:23:09,914 --> 00:23:12,796
But by the UN, same as the
Declaration. So the covenant is

403
00:23:12,776 --> 00:23:15,197
a different thing. It's a lot
more legal. If you accept the

404
00:23:15,237 --> 00:23:17,999
covenant, you accept these
things as law. And the

405
00:23:18,019 --> 00:23:22,202
interesting thing is that the
ICCPR, the covenant, says

406
00:23:22,282 --> 00:23:25,984
specifically regarding, I think
it's Article 19 or something of

407
00:23:25,984 --> 00:23:29,186
the Declaration, that freedom of
speech, even though it's a great

408
00:23:29,266 --> 00:23:31,267
idea, may be subject to certain
restrictions.

409
00:23:31,307 --> 00:23:33,969
And these restrictions are...
For the respect of the rights or

410
00:23:34,009 --> 00:23:36,891
reputations of others, which is
that I can't lie about you, and

411
00:23:36,911 --> 00:23:40,072
the protection of national
security or public order. You

412
00:23:40,072 --> 00:23:44,255
can't yell fire in a crowded
theatre. And even the US Supreme

413
00:23:44,315 --> 00:23:47,857
Court says that First Amendment
of the US Constitution does say

414
00:23:48,057 --> 00:23:50,219
freedom of speech. That is not
free everywhere.

415
00:23:50,439 --> 00:23:53,200
So the whole issue is that there
is no such thing as absolute

416
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,622
freedom of speech. The classic
case is John Stuart Mill, the

417
00:23:56,642 --> 00:23:59,564
writer who was writing in the
1700s, I think he was. Had a

418
00:23:59,584 --> 00:24:02,346
book called On Liberty. He
raises the issue of the harm

419
00:24:02,566 --> 00:24:05,669
principle. Yes, freedom of
speech is important. You should

420
00:24:05,709 --> 00:24:08,551
have the right to freedom of
speech except when it causes

421
00:24:08,611 --> 00:24:12,214
harm. So that's basically what
the skeptic point of view is.

422
00:24:12,474 --> 00:24:15,496
Yes, you can say you disagree
with vaccination. Fine. You can

423
00:24:15,556 --> 00:24:18,078
say I believe in a lockdown
sponsor. Fine. But when you

424
00:24:18,098 --> 00:24:21,501
start lying about it, and
especially when those lies cause

425
00:24:21,581 --> 00:24:23,942
harm, like when you say the
measles, mumps, and rubella

426
00:24:24,183 --> 00:24:26,968
vaccination causes autism, when
it doesn't. And that causes harm

427
00:24:27,008 --> 00:24:30,724
to people because it scares them
off back to life. Wrong, and you

428
00:24:30,744 --> 00:24:31,385
can't say it.

429
00:24:31,385 --> 00:24:34,707
This all relates to the internet
and social media. What about

430
00:24:34,787 --> 00:24:38,589
simply forcing social media to
accept the same rules as the

431
00:24:38,649 --> 00:24:42,631
rest of society? Say, me, as a
publisher of information, if I

432
00:24:42,651 --> 00:24:45,072
say something that's untrue, I
can be sued for that.

433
00:24:45,132 --> 00:24:47,694
If I defame somebody, I can be
sued for that. Shouldn't the

434
00:24:47,754 --> 00:24:51,156
same then apply to social media,
that if you say something on

435
00:24:51,176 --> 00:24:53,857
social media that's not, if you
defame someone, then you should

436
00:24:53,857 --> 00:24:54,637
be sued for that?

437
00:24:54,637 --> 00:24:58,059
Yes, I would agree. I mean, the
whole sum of what social media

438
00:24:58,079 --> 00:25:00,820
has developed so quickly. And
that the law is so slow to

439
00:25:00,860 --> 00:25:03,821
respond that it probably hasn't
caught up. But yeah, you're

440
00:25:03,841 --> 00:25:06,762
publishing things wherever
they're published, in print, TV,

441
00:25:07,262 --> 00:25:10,663
radio or online, the same rules
that apply. The question is that

442
00:25:10,663 --> 00:25:13,104
if someone says something on
your website, are you as the

443
00:25:13,144 --> 00:25:15,205
website owner responsible for
what they say?

444
00:25:15,465 --> 00:25:17,585
Or just a carriage service like
Telstra.

445
00:25:18,666 --> 00:25:21,266
Are you just a carriage service?
But then the carriage service

446
00:25:21,286 --> 00:25:24,407
does have an obligation to
moderate. Now, that's hard to

447
00:25:24,427 --> 00:25:27,228
do, right, to moderate
everything that's... Said on

448
00:25:27,288 --> 00:25:30,030
your website as comments or
whatever, but maybe that's the

449
00:25:30,050 --> 00:25:30,770
thing you have to do.

450
00:25:30,870 --> 00:25:33,591
Well, that's what it comes down
to, isn't it? Is social media

451
00:25:33,811 --> 00:25:36,953
like a postal service or a
telecommunications company, or

452
00:25:36,973 --> 00:25:40,634
is it a publisher like CBS or
ABC or what have you?

453
00:25:42,515 --> 00:25:44,876
Certainly, probably the Skeptics
on Pistol would suggest that

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00:25:45,036 --> 00:25:47,357
everywhere where somebody's
making statements and telling

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00:25:47,397 --> 00:25:49,979
lies, regardless of where it is,
they could be called up about

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00:25:50,039 --> 00:25:50,159
it.

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00:25:50,159 --> 00:25:52,820
That's Tim Mindum from
Australian Skeptics.

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00:26:08,616 --> 00:26:12,037
And that's the show for now.
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