Space-Time Dragging, Martian Rovers & Stellar Discoveries

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Andrew Dunkley: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal.

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10, 9. Ignition

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sequence start.

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Professor Fred Watson: Space nuts I.

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Andrew Dunkley: 4, 3, 2,

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1. Space nuts. Astronauts

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reported meals Good. Hello once again

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and thank you for joining us on this edition

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of the Space Nuts podcast.

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And my name's Andrew Dudley, your host. And

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with Me for episode 193 is

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Astronomer in Charge from Professor Fred

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Watson. Hello, Fred.

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Professor Fred Watson: Hello, Andrew. I did used to be the

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Astronomer in charge. That was my.

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Andrew Dunkley: I thought I said Astronomer at Large.

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Professor Fred Watson: Well, it's quite all right.

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Andrew Dunkley: No, it's Freudian slip.

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Professor Fred Watson: It's very. And of course, um, uh,

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that's why I became the Astronomer at Large.

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Because you only had to change four letters

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on the office door to make it unknown to you.

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Yes, yes.

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Andrew Dunkley: Um, the organ. And that sort of harps on

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something we talked about a while ago where

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your organization has changed names about two

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or three times, but didn't change the

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lettering. So didn't change the logo.

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Professor Fred Watson: Exactly. Same logo since

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1991.

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Andrew Dunkley: I think that's amazing. Uh, very

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good.

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Now, um, Fred, have you got enough toilet

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paper at your place? Is my big question.

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Professor Fred Watson: Well, it's very kind of you to ask. Um,

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we haven't yet started tearing pages out the

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Astrophysical Journal to use in the bathroom.

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Andrew Dunkley: Did you hear about the Northern Territory

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News? Uh, the newspaper in Darwin?

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They published an edition last week with

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several blank pages for people.

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This whole thing is just insanity at the

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highest level. There's so many people

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panicking over nothing. It's.

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Professor Fred Watson: You might want to explain the toilet paper

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issue, though.

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Andrew Dunkley: I think most people are aware, but if you're

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not aware, I don't know where you've been.

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But, uh, there's been a panic buy up of

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toilet paper in Australia and all the

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supermarket shelves are empty. Every

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supermarket where I live has got no toilet

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paper because people have been panic buying

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because the prime minister said stock up

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because you might have to be isolated for a

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couple of weeks because of the coronavirus.

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And everyone's freaking out about it. Well,

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not everyone. I mean, we don't care. But a

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lot of people are freaking out about it. But,

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uh, I'm going to bring some astronomy

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into this, Fred.

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Professor Fred Watson: Oh, good. I wondered where it was going.

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Andrew Dunkley: I think this is the 2020 version

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of a caveman seeing an eclipse and thinking

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the world's going to end. Oh, probably that's

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what this is.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.

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Andrew Dunkley: So I think people need to take a long, hard

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look at themselves and give themselves an

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uppercut, to use an Australian term, and just

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get on with it. This is

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ridiculous. Totally ridiculous.

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Professor Fred Watson: The good news is that um,

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those particular people will, you know,

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they'll never need to go and buy another

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toilet roll again.

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Andrew Dunkley: Not for eternity. They'll

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get like, they'll get buried with the stuff.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, that's right.

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Andrew Dunkley: I'm suggesting that if they're going to, you

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know, panic, buy toilet paper, get some baked

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beans and some long life milk so that when

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you eat it it'll taste a bit better.

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M Now let's get down to business.

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Today on Space Nuts we're going to uh, look

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at something that scientists have discovered

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for the first time and that is that space

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time is dragging. Not everywhere, but they've

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found that it is dragging in one particular

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place, which sounds unusual. And what does

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dragging actually mean? Uh, we're also going

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to look at a couple of clever, uh, students,

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um, uh, in terms of a name for the

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next Martian rover. This follows on from

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Sojourner, which I think is a great name.

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Spirit, Opportunity, Curiosity. So what are

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they calling the next one? We will tell you.

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And a 17 year old intern at

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NASA Day 3 on the job has

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found a planet six times, uh, or nearly seven

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times larger than Earth. I mean,

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how lucky is that? Uh, those are some of the

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things we'll look at today on Space Nuts with

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Fred Watson.

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Let's uh, start off Fred, with um, the

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fact that space time is dragging. What is it

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dragging and why?

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Professor Fred Watson: Uh, it's a phenomenon

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to do with the theory of general

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relativity, or rather the general theory of

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relativity, which of course was produced by

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Albert Einstein in 1915. Uh, not

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long after that, I think about three years

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later. Well, uh, let me just step back a

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minute. That theory of course says that

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as soon as you put matter into space time

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and space time's really just space, but with

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a fancy name as, uh, soon as you put matter

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into it, because of course time's part of it

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as well. Uh, as soon as you put matter into

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space time it is distorted and that

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distortion is what we feel as gravity. Uh,

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and that in itself is pretty hard to

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get your head around. Space time bends

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because matters there. But it was about,

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uh, I think three years later

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that two Austrian

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scientists, uh, by the name of

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Josef Lenzer unt Hans Turing,

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um, they worked out that

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uh, you would get a phenomenon,

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um, if you have a

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massive object rotating, you get a

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phenomenon which is almost a swirling of

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the space time around the object. It's called

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frame dragging. Um, and

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so as the Earth does it, as the Earth

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turns, it's not only distorting the

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space that's holding us on with the Force

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of gravity, but to a much less,

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a much lesser degree, it's also

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dragging the surrounding space time with

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it. Now I know you're

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looking baffled, Andrew.

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Andrew Dunkley: It's just a lack of sleep because I'm worried

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about where I'm going to get a roll of toilet

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paper.

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Professor Fred Watson: Well, just watch out. Don't drag your space

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time with it when you find it.

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Um, we usually Anglicize,

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uh, uh, Josef and Hans

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names to the lens theory

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precession or lens theorying effect.

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Andrew Dunkley: Okay.

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Professor Fred Watson: Um, that's um, how most people speak of

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it, even though they wouldn't have called

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themselves that. Uh, so, uh,

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okay, it has been tested, this

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theory. It was um, as I said, I think it

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was 1918 when it was uh, when

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it was produced. Um, but

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uh, the first test of it was

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done in the early 2000s.

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A spacecraft called Gravity Probe B

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was launched into orbit around the Earth

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by NASA in collaboration, I think with

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Stanford University, um,

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which carried on board very, very sensitive

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gyroscopes. And by using

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those, uh, the

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uh, physicists running the experiment could

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detect the frame dragging of the Earth

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itself. So it's all about subtle

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motions in the satellite

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and that tells you that yes, you have proved,

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because there's nothing else that would give

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rise to those subtle motions, you've proved

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that frame dragging is true, uh,

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but it's only been detected around the Earth.

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So now cut to the chase, uh, because

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uh, for the first time, uh, it has

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now been detected in an astronomical object.

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Uh, and this is a really nice story because

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it pulls together uh, the

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fundamental physics of frame dragging with

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some of the big adventures that here

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in Australia we are taking part in, uh,

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particularly in terms of radio astronomy. The

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story goes back 20 years actually, Andrew,

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uh, to the Parkes Radio

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Observatory, uh, in New South

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Wales, the very same state that we are both

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in at the moment.

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Andrew Dunkley: One hour drive from that telescope.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, yeah, that's right. You are indeed.

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Exactly. It's just down the road for you. Ah,

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very, very well known telescope, uh, the Big

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Dish it's usually called.

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Andrew Dunkley: And very distracting when you're driving

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along the highway because you just want to

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look at it.

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Professor Fred Watson: You can't stop looking at it. I know

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I don't have that problem because usually

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when I go down there, that's where I'm going.

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So I just watch it getting bigger as you get

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nearer to it. Um, 20 years ago,

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uh, the Parkes radio telescope

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discovered uh, a white

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dwarf pulsar binary system.

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Um, I'll tell you its name and then we can

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get that out of the way. It is, actually.

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I've got to magnify the screen so I can read

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it.

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Now, Fred, you're showing your PSR, uh,

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J1141 minus 6545.

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There you are. Uh, put that in your diary.

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That's good already. As have

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I. Uh, it is a white dwarf pulsar, uh, binary

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system. What does that mean? It means you've

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got a white dwarf star, which is, um, an

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object the size of the Earth, but with the

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mass of a star in it. Uh, made of electrons

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all crushed together. Uh, or the electrons

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are the only thing that hold that. Hold the

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thing that start the thing from collapsing.

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So, um, that is a massive object. Uh,

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around it is this pulsar, which is another

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massive object, uh, a neutron star. Uh,

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the two are in mutual orbits and

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the, uh. So the

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telescope discovered that

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phenomenon, the binary system. So the

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pulsar itself is beaming out radiation from

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its poles. Pulsars, as you know, because you

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and I have spoken about this before, uh,

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effectively are extremely accurate clocks.

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They basically blip out

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radio radiation as they rotate.

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That's what the Parkes dish detected.

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And, um, the precision with which

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they do that is better than atomic clocks.

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They are so regular. Um, Just

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as one smaller piece of information in this.

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The pulsar itself orbits the white

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dwarf every 4.8 hours.

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So it's, you know, it's a. It's

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whizzing round. That's right. Um,

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now what has happened over the last 20 years

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is that astronomers have been able to use

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this timing phenomenon,

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the regular timing of the pulsar,

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to measure the pulsar's

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position in respect to the white

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dwarf. Uh, because

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essentially time. Accurate time means

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accurate distance in terms of, uh, measuring

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where the pulsar is. And it's that

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measured over 20 years that has

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demonstrated that this frame dragging

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phenomenon is taking place out there,

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uh, at PSR, whatever it was. Uh,

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J1141 minus 6545.

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Um, so what the

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scientists. And there's a group of scientists

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from, uh, many different institutions,

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including, uh, institutions in Germany, the

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Square Kilometer Array Organization. That

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is, uh, the headquarters of this great

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new telescope that we're planning, the Square

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Kilometer Array in Western Australia and in

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South Africa. Uh, the headquarters are in

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Manchester, uh, or near Manchester at the

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Jodrell Bank Radio Observatory. One of the

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scientists involved with this work, uh, comes

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from that organization. Uh, so that

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means, uh, he is relatively closely connected

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with Australia because Australia is one of

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the host nations. Uh, and

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I should just mention that the Parkes dish,

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uh, plus another telescope called the

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Malonglo Observatory Synthesis Telescope

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again here in Australia, uh, which has been

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involved with this work. They are both

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Pathfinder telescopes for the Square

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Kilometer Array. So very important

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in this large scale project that

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is currently uh, under construction or,

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uh, soon will be under construction, um,

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that's getting in the plug for ska. But the

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research itself, as I said, involves

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scientists from Germany, Australia, New

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Zealand and actually Denmark too. Um, and

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what they've done is they've um, looked at

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the way these pulsar signals have changed

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over the 20 years and they find

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a change in the pulsar's

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orbit which amounts to

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150 kilometers. Uh, and

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we're now talking about something that's

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10,000 light years away. Andrews Being

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able to measure uh, a change in orbit of

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150 kilometers, uh, at that distance is

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an astonishing accomplishment. But it turns

303
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out that that change is exactly what you

304
00:12:52.560 --> 00:12:55.440
would expect from frame dragging by

305
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the white dwarf itself. And that's the only

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thing that can account for it. So it is the

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first time that we've demonstrated this

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swirling of space actually, uh, uh,

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beyond the Earth's vicinity. And it's an

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important, um, you know, a really important

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result which is rightly being celebrated all

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over the science media, um, astronomers,

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detective, Distant space time dragging for

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the first time.

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Andrew Dunkley: So I guess the point of

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this is the massive um, or the

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mass of this event rather than, you know, we

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talked about how Earth does it, but we're

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talking about something on a much larger

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scale.

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Professor Fred Watson: That's right, yes. Uh, well, the white dwarf

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itself, whilst it's probably not much bigger

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than the Earth, uh, its mass is much larger.

324
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Yeah, uh, and yeah, you're talking about,

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um, you know, you are talking about something

326
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happening on a larger scale. I

327
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confess that um, I am not an

328
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expert on the lens searing effect, uh, but

329
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it is very interesting stuff. Uh, and when

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you read up about it, it's quite inspiring

331
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that, you know, all those years ago these

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guys worked out that space time is being

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dragged around by the Earth.

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Andrew Dunkley: And if you like me and you don't want to read

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00:14:04.830 --> 00:14:06.550
anything about it, there's a fabulous

336
00:14:06.550 --> 00:14:07.830
animation on the

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skatelescope.org website where you

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can see um, in about 1 minute

339
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and 20 seconds what they've learned over 20

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years. It shows you how uh, effect works.

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It's very, very good.

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Professor Fred Watson: Um, I might give a call out to the, the

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person who put that uh, animation together,

344
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Mark Myers, who's at Swinburne University,

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00:14:28.650 --> 00:14:29.930
uh, because I was in touch with him

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yesterday. I'm using one of his, um, graphics

347
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in a newsletter that I prepare and I asked

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him if that was all right. He said he, uh,

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was delighted to let us use it. And

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I absolutely agree with you, Andrew. His

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animation, uh, which is on that website, the

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skatelescope.org website, is terrific.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yes, indeed.

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All right, you're listening to the Space

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00:14:51.760 --> 00:14:54.440
Nuts podcast. Andrew Dunkley here with Fred

356
00:14:54.440 --> 00:14:57.360
Watson. Let's

357
00:14:57.360 --> 00:14:59.600
take a break from the show and hear a word or

358
00:14:59.600 --> 00:15:02.280
two from our sponsored Grammarly. Now, I have

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380
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Grammarly is offering a free download of the

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391
00:16:23.922 --> 00:16:26.865
again, that's getgrammarly.com

392
00:16:27.193 --> 00:16:30.150
spacEnuts to download Grammarly

393
00:16:30.150 --> 00:16:32.990
for free and let them know you came from

394
00:16:32.990 --> 00:16:35.710
us. Uh, I'll include the link in the show

395
00:16:35.710 --> 00:16:36.390
notes as well.

396
00:16:36.550 --> 00:16:38.710
And now back to Space Nuts.

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00:16:39.590 --> 00:16:41.670
Three, two, one.

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00:16:42.230 --> 00:16:45.190
Space Nuts. Now, Fred, uh, just,

399
00:16:45.210 --> 00:16:47.630
uh, another shout out to our patrons who

400
00:16:47.630 --> 00:16:50.150
support our podcast with dollars and cents.

401
00:16:50.150 --> 00:16:52.830
We, um, thank you again for doing that. If

402
00:16:52.830 --> 00:16:54.989
you would like to become a patron or just

403
00:16:54.989 --> 00:16:57.390
look into the possibility, uh, you can go to

404
00:16:57.390 --> 00:16:59.510
Our Patreon website, patreon.com

405
00:16:59.830 --> 00:17:02.110
spacenuts all the information's there. If you

406
00:17:02.110 --> 00:17:04.350
would like to contribute to the program, you

407
00:17:04.350 --> 00:17:07.270
can set your own limit. Um, but

408
00:17:07.630 --> 00:17:09.830
it's not mandatory. We're not asking you to

409
00:17:09.830 --> 00:17:12.630
do it as, as a condition of listening to the

410
00:17:12.630 --> 00:17:14.910
podcast. If you want to go on listening to

411
00:17:14.910 --> 00:17:17.710
it, uh, as you are, that is fine too.

412
00:17:17.710 --> 00:17:20.230
But uh, anybody who contributes does get the

413
00:17:20.230 --> 00:17:22.630
benefit of bonus content on the Patreon

414
00:17:22.630 --> 00:17:25.390
website. Uh, they also get the commercial

415
00:17:25.390 --> 00:17:27.470
free edition of the podcast,

416
00:17:28.010 --> 00:17:30.790
uh, ahead of time. So, um, something to

417
00:17:30.790 --> 00:17:33.670
consider anyway, um, now, uh, by the

418
00:17:33.670 --> 00:17:36.430
way, Fred, um, my uh, new book,

419
00:17:37.750 --> 00:17:40.690
um, Shameless Plug coming up, uh, is now

420
00:17:40.690 --> 00:17:43.530
available for pre order as an

421
00:17:43.530 --> 00:17:46.370
ebook. So, um, have a look for that

422
00:17:46.450 --> 00:17:49.230
on the Amazon website. So, um,

423
00:17:49.230 --> 00:17:52.210
that's, that's pretty exciting. I very, very

424
00:17:52.210 --> 00:17:54.080
pleased with how it's all turned out. Uh,

425
00:17:54.080 --> 00:17:55.970
someone actually messaged me the other day

426
00:17:55.970 --> 00:17:57.730
and said I've ordered it, better be good.

427
00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:01.330
Professor Fred Watson: Uh, you've got to remind us of the title,

428
00:18:01.330 --> 00:18:01.730
Andrew.

429
00:18:01.730 --> 00:18:04.640
Andrew Dunkley: It's called, uh, the Turanian Enigma. The

430
00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:07.560
Tyranny Enigma. I'm starting. First time I

431
00:18:07.560 --> 00:18:09.920
wrote that down and read it out, my tongue

432
00:18:09.920 --> 00:18:11.560
tripped over it and I thought, no, this is,

433
00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:14.080
this is too hard. But I'm getting used to it

434
00:18:14.080 --> 00:18:14.360
now.

435
00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:15.600
Professor Fred Watson: Very good.

436
00:18:15.600 --> 00:18:17.440
Andrew Dunkley: I've developed a couple of synapses in my

437
00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:19.240
brain that have got my mouth around the

438
00:18:19.240 --> 00:18:21.820
Turanian in. No, no, I tripped over it. But

439
00:18:21.820 --> 00:18:24.240
um, yeah, have a look for it. Uh, the

440
00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:27.240
official release date of the ebook and

441
00:18:28.040 --> 00:18:30.440
the paperback will be April 15th.

442
00:18:31.710 --> 00:18:34.710
And um, a few people have

443
00:18:34.710 --> 00:18:36.830
asked if I could turn it into an audiobook as

444
00:18:36.830 --> 00:18:39.710
well. So I'll look into that. It's just

445
00:18:39.710 --> 00:18:41.950
so time consuming to create an audiobook.

446
00:18:42.510 --> 00:18:45.230
Uh, not so much the reading and recording of,

447
00:18:45.230 --> 00:18:47.990
but the editing. Oh my gosh, that's a

448
00:18:47.990 --> 00:18:49.390
nightmare. Uh, having.

449
00:18:49.390 --> 00:18:51.230
Professor Fred Watson: Well, you did that for, um, almost.

450
00:18:51.230 --> 00:18:54.150
Andrew Dunkley: There's Mud, which was a World

451
00:18:54.150 --> 00:18:56.150
War I story about my grandfather in the Great

452
00:18:56.150 --> 00:18:58.920
War. But that, that started

453
00:18:59.080 --> 00:19:01.880
as an audiobook. So that was. I sort

454
00:19:01.880 --> 00:19:04.120
of flipped the egg on that. I did the

455
00:19:04.120 --> 00:19:07.000
audiobook and then, uh, made the paperback.

456
00:19:07.240 --> 00:19:09.360
But these last two I've done the other way

457
00:19:09.360 --> 00:19:10.920
around or haven't done the other way around.

458
00:19:10.920 --> 00:19:13.560
But um, I'll, I'll look into it. I'll just.

459
00:19:13.640 --> 00:19:16.560
It's got to be feasible. And that,

460
00:19:16.560 --> 00:19:19.480
that sort of becomes the question. But, um,

461
00:19:19.800 --> 00:19:22.120
we'll see how the demand goes. But yeah, have

462
00:19:22.120 --> 00:19:24.560
a look for it. Um, Huw tells me he's going to

463
00:19:24.560 --> 00:19:26.910
put it on our um, bytes.com

464
00:19:27.150 --> 00:19:29.670
spacenuts page. So you might be able to pre

465
00:19:29.670 --> 00:19:31.950
order through there. I haven't checked.

466
00:19:32.320 --> 00:19:34.310
Uh, now let's get down to a couple of things

467
00:19:34.310 --> 00:19:36.790
involving students. Fred. These are, uh,

468
00:19:36.980 --> 00:19:39.390
um, exciting stories. I particularly like

469
00:19:39.390 --> 00:19:41.909
this one, which involves the naming of the

470
00:19:41.909 --> 00:19:44.590
next Mars rover. Now we've uh, heard of

471
00:19:44.590 --> 00:19:47.230
Sojourner and Spirit and Opportunity and

472
00:19:47.230 --> 00:19:50.030
Curiosity, uh some of which

473
00:19:50.190 --> 00:19:52.830
have gone above and beyond the call of duty.

474
00:19:53.520 --> 00:19:56.470
Uh, but um, they aren't the last rovers.

475
00:19:56.470 --> 00:19:59.070
They'll be future rovers. And uh, it looks

476
00:19:59.070 --> 00:20:00.790
like some students have got involved in the

477
00:20:00.790 --> 00:20:01.870
naming of the next one.

478
00:20:02.990 --> 00:20:05.660
Professor Fred Watson: Well, that's right. It was uh, uh,

479
00:20:05.720 --> 00:20:08.510
uh, you know, I think this is what NASA

480
00:20:08.510 --> 00:20:11.430
does normally with its rovers. Uh, it puts

481
00:20:11.430 --> 00:20:14.380
out a um, competition, uh,

482
00:20:14.510 --> 00:20:17.230
to uh, actually to

483
00:20:17.230 --> 00:20:19.790
school students, uh, and

484
00:20:20.030 --> 00:20:22.670
says suggests names for our next

485
00:20:22.670 --> 00:20:25.240
rover. And of course the next rover is

486
00:20:25.560 --> 00:20:27.880
what's been called until now Mars 2020.

487
00:20:28.380 --> 00:20:31.080
Um, it will be launched uh, July or August

488
00:20:31.080 --> 00:20:33.720
this year. I think its landing date

489
00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:36.960
on Mars is the 18th of February next

490
00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:39.960
year. So, um, uh, just under a year

491
00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:42.560
away until now, called Mars

492
00:20:42.560 --> 00:20:45.400
2020. So during the closing

493
00:20:45.400 --> 00:20:48.080
months of last year, NASA put out the

494
00:20:48.080 --> 00:20:50.780
invitation to school

495
00:20:50.780 --> 00:20:53.460
students, I think it was, uh, school students

496
00:20:53.460 --> 00:20:56.460
of all ages from kindy to year 12.

497
00:20:57.270 --> 00:20:59.500
Uh, and uh, invited

498
00:21:00.540 --> 00:21:02.460
them to submit

499
00:21:03.100 --> 00:21:03.900
suggestions

500
00:21:06.030 --> 00:21:08.660
uh, for the um, name, uh, of the

501
00:21:08.660 --> 00:21:10.380
rover. And they received

502
00:21:11.510 --> 00:21:13.340
uh, 28,000

503
00:21:13.740 --> 00:21:14.700
submissions.

504
00:21:14.700 --> 00:21:16.220
Andrew Dunkley: I know, that's amazing.

505
00:21:16.700 --> 00:21:19.540
Professor Fred Watson: It's not bad, is it? That was uh, back in

506
00:21:19.540 --> 00:21:21.140
August, at the end of August last year when

507
00:21:21.140 --> 00:21:23.880
they put the invitation out. Uh,

508
00:21:24.060 --> 00:21:26.500
but fortunately, uh, it wasn't just one

509
00:21:26.500 --> 00:21:28.500
person who had to read all 28,000 because

510
00:21:28.500 --> 00:21:30.620
these were essays, uh, saying why it should

511
00:21:30.620 --> 00:21:33.100
be a particular name. They had 4,700

512
00:21:33.100 --> 00:21:35.730
volunteer judges. They were educators, uh,

513
00:21:35.980 --> 00:21:38.740
professionals in the space field and space

514
00:21:38.740 --> 00:21:41.460
enthusiasts. And they eventually got down

515
00:21:41.460 --> 00:21:44.030
to 155 semi

516
00:21:44.030 --> 00:21:46.190
finalists and then nine finalists. And I

517
00:21:46.190 --> 00:21:48.070
think, I can't remember, but I think you and

518
00:21:48.070 --> 00:21:50.950
I talked about this last year because

519
00:21:50.950 --> 00:21:53.790
there was a list of uh, very elegant. They

520
00:21:53.790 --> 00:21:56.350
were all great names actually for uh, a

521
00:21:56.350 --> 00:21:56.790
rover.

522
00:21:56.870 --> 00:21:57.510
Andrew Dunkley: Robert.

523
00:21:58.690 --> 00:22:00.950
Professor Fred Watson: Uh, and then they put that out for public

524
00:22:00.950 --> 00:22:03.710
voting and in fact it was worldwide and there

525
00:22:03.710 --> 00:22:05.910
were many submissions came from Australia.

526
00:22:06.550 --> 00:22:08.350
They received a total of

527
00:22:08.350 --> 00:22:10.870
770,000 votes

528
00:22:12.070 --> 00:22:14.700
to, to, you know, to chew through, to work

529
00:22:14.700 --> 00:22:17.580
out what uh, the final name should be.

530
00:22:17.980 --> 00:22:20.780
And eventually, uh, they

531
00:22:20.780 --> 00:22:23.260
got one answer and it came.

532
00:22:23.340 --> 00:22:25.900
Andrew Dunkley: Hang on, Drumroll, drumroll.

533
00:22:25.950 --> 00:22:28.950
Professor Fred Watson: Uh, it came from uh,

534
00:22:29.580 --> 00:22:32.300
a youngster by the name of Alex

535
00:22:32.620 --> 00:22:35.420
Mather, uh, who's at a school. I've

536
00:22:35.420 --> 00:22:37.460
forgotten. I think he's in Virginia. I can

537
00:22:37.460 --> 00:22:40.280
check that in a minute. Uh, but he. And

538
00:22:40.280 --> 00:22:42.560
here's the drum roll. He was the person who

539
00:22:42.560 --> 00:22:45.120
suggested the name Perseverance,

540
00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:47.920
which is nice of the new

541
00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:49.840
spacecraft. Yeah, yeah.

542
00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:52.240
Andrew Dunkley: That is a fabulous name for it because it

543
00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:55.040
does actually tell a story

544
00:22:55.040 --> 00:22:57.080
behind all the missions to Mars over the

545
00:22:57.080 --> 00:22:58.800
years and all the work that's gone into it.

546
00:22:58.800 --> 00:23:01.600
They just, you know, uh, all the successes

547
00:23:01.600 --> 00:23:04.530
and the failures and the near misses. It

548
00:23:04.530 --> 00:23:07.050
is Perseverance that's going.

549
00:23:07.370 --> 00:23:10.290
Professor Fred Watson: That's right. I mean this spacecraft as well

550
00:23:10.290 --> 00:23:12.850
could be uh, it could be the one that

551
00:23:12.850 --> 00:23:15.450
discovers life on Mars because

552
00:23:15.450 --> 00:23:18.410
that's what it's, you know, what the aim is.

553
00:23:18.770 --> 00:23:21.490
Um, uh, unlike Curiosity, whose mission was

554
00:23:21.490 --> 00:23:24.090
to discover whether Mars was ever habitable,

555
00:23:24.090 --> 00:23:26.130
which it did within about the first fortnight

556
00:23:26.130 --> 00:23:28.950
of its presence on the planet, um, uh,

557
00:23:29.050 --> 00:23:31.970
Perseverance is looking for evidence of past

558
00:23:31.970 --> 00:23:34.490
or present life, um, with many different

559
00:23:34.490 --> 00:23:37.490
instruments that will, will do that. Uh,

560
00:23:37.670 --> 00:23:40.310
and I suspect perseverance might be

561
00:23:40.630 --> 00:23:42.590
the characteristic that it needs more than

562
00:23:42.590 --> 00:23:44.630
anything else. It will probably be quite a

563
00:23:44.630 --> 00:23:46.830
long mission. Uh, it's unlikely that, you

564
00:23:46.830 --> 00:23:48.590
know, as soon as it drops down it's going to

565
00:23:48.590 --> 00:23:51.390
find evidence of um, Martian

566
00:23:51.390 --> 00:23:53.590
microbes. One would expect that it might have

567
00:23:53.590 --> 00:23:55.630
to move around on the surface a bit, but it

568
00:23:55.630 --> 00:23:56.230
will do that.

569
00:23:58.150 --> 00:24:00.910
Andrew Dunkley: Only slightly pipped, uh, the number

570
00:24:00.910 --> 00:24:03.500
two, which was Do I have to go to Mars?

571
00:24:05.340 --> 00:24:07.460
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, that's the one.

572
00:24:07.460 --> 00:24:10.220
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. Um, I'm fascinated by the fact

573
00:24:10.220 --> 00:24:12.980
that uh, they got 28,000 submissions for the

574
00:24:12.980 --> 00:24:14.820
name. It reminds me of an author, a

575
00:24:14.820 --> 00:24:16.740
children's author in Sri Lanka last week who

576
00:24:16.740 --> 00:24:19.380
got 20,000 submissions for the ending of her

577
00:24:19.380 --> 00:24:22.140
latest book. And they came out

578
00:24:22.380 --> 00:24:24.140
and they're going to publish it with

579
00:24:24.140 --> 00:24:27.020
1,250 endings, which is,

580
00:24:27.620 --> 00:24:30.020
which is a, um, Guinness World Record. And I,

581
00:24:30.020 --> 00:24:32.540
I think those sorts of responses really show

582
00:24:32.540 --> 00:24:34.820
where you stand in the world. So when I asked

583
00:24:34.820 --> 00:24:36.660
for a title for my book, I got five.

584
00:24:36.900 --> 00:24:39.140
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, you did. I think that's pretty good.

585
00:24:40.500 --> 00:24:42.260
More than, more than the number of people who

586
00:24:42.260 --> 00:24:45.150
read my book. Um, um,

587
00:24:45.540 --> 00:24:47.740
the bottom line here is congratulations to

588
00:24:47.740 --> 00:24:50.740
young Alexander Mather. He

589
00:24:50.740 --> 00:24:53.740
is uh, a year, sorry a grade

590
00:24:53.740 --> 00:24:56.240
seven student. Now I, I'm, I'm guessing that

591
00:24:56.240 --> 00:24:58.960
that means he's about 13, uh, or

592
00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:00.680
thereabouts. Um, and

593
00:25:01.840 --> 00:25:04.200
uh, he put in, put together a really

594
00:25:04.840 --> 00:25:07.440
uh, remarkable, um, you know,

595
00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:10.080
remarkable uh, um,

596
00:25:10.520 --> 00:25:12.920
entry. Um, he said some

597
00:25:13.240 --> 00:25:15.560
very, very, very uh,

598
00:25:15.840 --> 00:25:18.720
nice comments about the, the competition. And

599
00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:21.420
his, his uh, his, his um

600
00:25:21.800 --> 00:25:24.630
entry to it, he says, um, this

601
00:25:24.630 --> 00:25:26.270
is actually in the NASA press release. He

602
00:25:26.270 --> 00:25:28.190
says this was a chance to help the agency

603
00:25:28.190 --> 00:25:30.150
that put humans on the moon and we'll soon do

604
00:25:30.150 --> 00:25:32.910
it again. This Mars rover will help pave the

605
00:25:32.910 --> 00:25:35.310
way for human presence there. And I wanted to

606
00:25:35.310 --> 00:25:38.270
Try and help in any way I could. Refusal of

607
00:25:38.270 --> 00:25:39.990
the challenge was not an option.

608
00:25:40.790 --> 00:25:43.350
Lovely. That is great stuff, isn't it?

609
00:25:43.350 --> 00:25:45.990
Andrew Dunkley: Good on him. Okay, uh, so watch out for

610
00:25:46.150 --> 00:25:49.070
perseverance, uh, which should hit

611
00:25:49.070 --> 00:25:51.830
the Martian surface in little under a year.

612
00:25:52.630 --> 00:25:55.030
Still, uh, on students doing great things.

613
00:25:55.330 --> 00:25:58.170
Uh, this is a fabulous story about a 17 year

614
00:25:58.170 --> 00:26:01.130
old who's doing an internship at NASA and

615
00:26:01.130 --> 00:26:03.890
has found a planet on day

616
00:26:03.890 --> 00:26:04.290
three.

617
00:26:04.610 --> 00:26:07.490
Professor Fred Watson: Day three. That's right, it is.

618
00:26:07.490 --> 00:26:10.210
It's great stuff. Um, so, uh, this

619
00:26:10.210 --> 00:26:13.130
is a young man called, uh, Wolf, Cukier,

620
00:26:13.130 --> 00:26:14.930
I hope I'm pronouncing his name correctly.

621
00:26:15.350 --> 00:26:17.170
Uh, he scored a two month

622
00:26:17.570 --> 00:26:20.530
internship with NASA. Uh, so during

623
00:26:20.530 --> 00:26:22.570
last northern summer he was at the Goddard

624
00:26:22.570 --> 00:26:24.930
Space Flight center in Greenbelt in Maryland.

625
00:26:25.490 --> 00:26:28.450
And, um, what he was doing, uh, on

626
00:26:28.450 --> 00:26:30.490
day three, I think he probably started off

627
00:26:30.490 --> 00:26:33.450
doing this. He was trawling through data from

628
00:26:33.690 --> 00:26:36.530
tess. Uh, so TESS is a

629
00:26:36.530 --> 00:26:39.130
NASA spacecraft. It is currently operational,

630
00:26:39.530 --> 00:26:42.409
doing a great job. The name is an acronym

631
00:26:42.409 --> 00:26:45.210
for Transiting Exoplanet Survey Satellite.

632
00:26:45.210 --> 00:26:48.090
So it's actually looking for the dimming

633
00:26:48.090 --> 00:26:50.970
of the light of stars as planets

634
00:26:50.970 --> 00:26:53.970
pass in front of them. And unlike Kepler,

635
00:26:53.970 --> 00:26:56.870
which only looked at a small, uh,

636
00:26:56.870 --> 00:26:59.530
area of the sky to do the same job,

637
00:27:00.250 --> 00:27:03.190
Kepler, now effectively defunct tess, uh,

638
00:27:03.770 --> 00:27:06.490
actually looks at the whole sky. Uh, so

639
00:27:07.850 --> 00:27:10.250
the word survey in its name is very important

640
00:27:10.330 --> 00:27:12.170
because it actually has a chance to look at

641
00:27:12.170 --> 00:27:14.970
the entire sky. So he was looking

642
00:27:15.530 --> 00:27:17.730
through the data. Actually there's a nice

643
00:27:17.730 --> 00:27:20.610
quote again, um, from Wolf. He

644
00:27:20.610 --> 00:27:22.790
says, I was looking through the data for

645
00:27:22.790 --> 00:27:24.670
everything the volunteers had flagged as an

646
00:27:24.670 --> 00:27:27.150
eclipsing binary. That means, uh,

647
00:27:27.510 --> 00:27:29.990
two stars orbiting around their common center

648
00:27:29.990 --> 00:27:32.950
of mass. One passes in front of the other as

649
00:27:32.950 --> 00:27:35.150
seen from the Earth. And so you get what we

650
00:27:35.150 --> 00:27:38.030
call an eclipse. So they're well known stars.

651
00:27:38.030 --> 00:27:40.830
They've been well known for more than a

652
00:27:40.830 --> 00:27:43.270
century. It was looking, uh, through

653
00:27:43.270 --> 00:27:45.310
everything Volunteers had flagged as an

654
00:27:45.310 --> 00:27:47.630
eclipsing binary. A system where two stars

655
00:27:47.630 --> 00:27:49.800
circle around each other and from our view,

656
00:27:49.800 --> 00:27:52.520
eclipse each other every orbit. About

657
00:27:52.520 --> 00:27:55.320
three days into my internship, I saw a signal

658
00:27:55.320 --> 00:27:57.360
from a system called TOI

659
00:27:57.360 --> 00:28:00.320
1338. At first I thought it was a

660
00:28:00.320 --> 00:28:03.000
stellar eclipse, but the timing was

661
00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:05.560
wrong. It turned out to be a planet.

662
00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:08.760
Uh, I noticed a dip or a transit from the TOI

663
00:28:08.760 --> 00:28:11.200
1338 system. And that was the first signal of

664
00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:13.440
the planet. First saw the initial dip and

665
00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:16.400
thought, oh, that looked cool. But then when

666
00:28:16.400 --> 00:28:18.400
I looked at the full data from the telescope

667
00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:20.970
at that start, I and my mentor also

668
00:28:20.970 --> 00:28:23.010
noticed three different dips in the system.

669
00:28:23.010 --> 00:28:25.890
So great stuff and very well

670
00:28:25.890 --> 00:28:26.410
spotted.

671
00:28:26.410 --> 00:28:27.890
Andrew Dunkley: And it's a big one too.

672
00:28:28.530 --> 00:28:29.250
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, that's right.

673
00:28:29.650 --> 00:28:30.530
Andrew Dunkley: Planets, I suppose.

674
00:28:32.140 --> 00:28:34.650
Professor Fred Watson: Um, it's somewhere between the size of

675
00:28:34.650 --> 00:28:37.460
Neptune and Saturn. Uh,

676
00:28:37.890 --> 00:28:40.730
rather larger than Uranus, about seven

677
00:28:40.730 --> 00:28:43.050
times larger than the Earth. It's in the

678
00:28:43.050 --> 00:28:45.410
constellation of Pictor and it's about 1300

679
00:28:45.410 --> 00:28:46.290
light years away.

680
00:28:46.950 --> 00:28:49.940
Andrew Dunkley: Um, is it a gas giant or a rocky planet?

681
00:28:49.940 --> 00:28:52.420
Professor Fred Watson: Probably. Probably a gas giant. Yeah.

682
00:28:53.460 --> 00:28:56.290
The name, uh, uh, uh,

683
00:28:56.290 --> 00:28:59.220
TOI 1338. TOI

684
00:28:59.220 --> 00:29:02.020
is an acronym for TESS, Object of

685
00:29:02.020 --> 00:29:04.790
Interest. Uh, and, uh, um,

686
00:29:04.790 --> 00:29:06.740
it's one that's floating around a lot these

687
00:29:06.740 --> 00:29:09.540
days with a number attached to it.

688
00:29:09.540 --> 00:29:12.260
So of course, um, because of the convention,

689
00:29:12.470 --> 00:29:15.150
uh, that planet that, uh, Wolf has

690
00:29:15.150 --> 00:29:18.070
discovered is now called TOI1338B

691
00:29:18.310 --> 00:29:20.750
because the B signifies it is the first

692
00:29:20.750 --> 00:29:22.870
discovered planet around the star.

693
00:29:23.270 --> 00:29:24.630
Andrew Dunkley: Excellent. All right.

694
00:29:24.950 --> 00:29:25.630
Professor Fred Watson: Great stuff.

695
00:29:25.630 --> 00:29:27.550
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, good, good stuff with involving

696
00:29:27.550 --> 00:29:30.550
students, um, doing wonderful things. You're

697
00:29:30.550 --> 00:29:32.950
listening to Space Nuts with Andrew Dunkley

698
00:29:32.950 --> 00:29:34.310
and Professor Fred Watson.

699
00:29:38.550 --> 00:29:41.330
Space Nuts and a big hello to all our

700
00:29:41.330 --> 00:29:43.880
social media followers that contribute, um,

701
00:29:44.490 --> 00:29:46.490
via our Facebook page. If you're not

702
00:29:46.490 --> 00:29:48.530
following us on Facebook, uh, maybe have a

703
00:29:48.530 --> 00:29:50.210
look. If you're a Facebook user, of course,

704
00:29:50.760 --> 00:29:53.450
uh, you can also join the Space Nuts podcast

705
00:29:53.450 --> 00:29:55.610
group on Facebook. That's a chance for you to

706
00:29:55.610 --> 00:29:57.610
talk to each other and help each other out

707
00:29:57.610 --> 00:29:59.370
with astronomy questions. And it's going

708
00:29:59.370 --> 00:30:02.290
gangbusters. People are really, uh, enjoying

709
00:30:02.850 --> 00:30:05.650
finding each other and, um, the

710
00:30:05.650 --> 00:30:08.290
similarity in interest is rather fascinating.

711
00:30:08.370 --> 00:30:10.970
So I occasionally poke my head in there. But

712
00:30:10.970 --> 00:30:13.310
it's actually for you, the Space Nuts podcast

713
00:30:13.310 --> 00:30:15.430
group, so you might want to take advantage of

714
00:30:15.430 --> 00:30:17.910
that. And of course YouTube Music. Uh, the

715
00:30:17.910 --> 00:30:19.830
numbers continue to grow, so if you'd like to

716
00:30:19.830 --> 00:30:22.790
subscribe to the Space Nuts YouTube Music

717
00:30:22.790 --> 00:30:24.910
channel, you can do that too.

718
00:30:25.870 --> 00:30:28.390
Now, Fred, uh, we have a couple of questions.

719
00:30:28.390 --> 00:30:30.430
I didn't, uh, preview these because I forgot,

720
00:30:30.430 --> 00:30:32.590
but, uh, we, we are going to tackle a couple

721
00:30:32.590 --> 00:30:34.300
of questions and then we're going to do, um,

722
00:30:34.300 --> 00:30:35.990
a little bit of homework or go back to

723
00:30:35.990 --> 00:30:37.350
something we talked about a couple of weeks

724
00:30:37.350 --> 00:30:39.730
ago just to finish it off, which was the

725
00:30:39.730 --> 00:30:41.850
Roche limit, which, which actually came about

726
00:30:41.850 --> 00:30:42.970
as a result of a question.

727
00:30:43.370 --> 00:30:45.290
But our first question today comes from

728
00:30:45.290 --> 00:30:47.370
Andrew Mitchell. I think Andrew's been in

729
00:30:47.370 --> 00:30:49.290
touch with us before. Dear Fred and Andrew,

730
00:30:49.290 --> 00:30:51.690
all this recent talk about black holes has

731
00:30:51.690 --> 00:30:54.170
been fascinating. And the last installment

732
00:30:54.170 --> 00:30:56.530
got me thinking. According to Einstein's

733
00:30:56.530 --> 00:30:58.730
equations, black holes are supposed to have,

734
00:30:58.880 --> 00:31:01.770
uh, infinite, uh, supposed to be infinitely

735
00:31:01.770 --> 00:31:04.490
small, infinitely dense singularities

736
00:31:04.730 --> 00:31:07.450
at their center. If that's the case, then how

737
00:31:07.530 --> 00:31:10.250
do uh, two actually merge into one black.

738
00:31:10.870 --> 00:31:12.670
Shouldn't they just keep orbiting each other,

739
00:31:12.670 --> 00:31:15.470
getting closer forever? Or is the fact that

740
00:31:15.470 --> 00:31:17.670
black holes do merge actually evidence that

741
00:31:17.670 --> 00:31:20.430
singularities have size? Perhaps a sphere

742
00:31:20.430 --> 00:31:23.270
with a diameter of one Planck length?

743
00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:25.870
Uh, your regular plugs and YouTube Music

744
00:31:25.870 --> 00:31:28.270
channel have been paying off. I just became

745
00:31:28.270 --> 00:31:30.910
subscriber number 993, so it would, you know,

746
00:31:30.910 --> 00:31:32.310
we're a bit overdue getting your question

747
00:31:32.310 --> 00:31:33.670
done, Andrew. Thanks for joining us on

748
00:31:33.670 --> 00:31:35.510
YouTube Music though still loving the show.

749
00:31:35.670 --> 00:31:38.550
Um, please keep up the mind blowing stories.

750
00:31:39.300 --> 00:31:41.780
Thank you, Andrew. Um, black holes, gee, we

751
00:31:41.780 --> 00:31:42.900
don't talk about them very often.

752
00:31:43.730 --> 00:31:46.420
Um, but yeah, it's an interesting

753
00:31:46.420 --> 00:31:49.220
question because we talk about how the, the

754
00:31:49.220 --> 00:31:52.100
black hole itself is quite small when

755
00:31:52.100 --> 00:31:54.779
you compare it to the event horizon or the,

756
00:31:54.779 --> 00:31:57.220
or the, you know, what's going on around it.

757
00:31:57.530 --> 00:32:00.420
Um, but yeah, two

758
00:32:00.420 --> 00:32:02.820
merging black holes, do they actually merge?

759
00:32:02.820 --> 00:32:04.740
And how is it. So.

760
00:32:07.190 --> 00:32:09.290
Professor Fred Watson: It'S a really good question. Um,

761
00:32:10.070 --> 00:32:10.630
it's,

762
00:32:12.870 --> 00:32:15.510
you know, the

763
00:32:15.670 --> 00:32:18.030
whole black hole thing is hard to get your

764
00:32:18.030 --> 00:32:20.710
head around, whether you're a physicist or an

765
00:32:20.710 --> 00:32:23.550
astronomer or somebody fighting

766
00:32:23.550 --> 00:32:25.750
over toilet rolls in the ah, aisle.

767
00:32:25.910 --> 00:32:28.310
Andrew Dunkley: Vesuva involves a black hole too, doesn't it?

768
00:32:28.310 --> 00:32:31.070
Professor Fred Watson: I'm sure it does, yeah. They are very, very

769
00:32:31.070 --> 00:32:33.920
hard, uh, objects to understand. Uh,

770
00:32:33.990 --> 00:32:35.270
and Andrew's question

771
00:32:36.930 --> 00:32:39.890
made, um, how do two black

772
00:32:39.890 --> 00:32:41.970
holes merge into one?

773
00:32:42.690 --> 00:32:45.250
Um, I don't think

774
00:32:46.130 --> 00:32:48.890
there is any need for them

775
00:32:48.890 --> 00:32:51.730
to keep orbiting around each other

776
00:32:51.730 --> 00:32:54.530
if they are of infinitely small

777
00:32:54.530 --> 00:32:56.490
size. I do get his point that if you've got

778
00:32:56.490 --> 00:32:59.370
something that's infinitely small, uh, and

779
00:32:59.370 --> 00:33:01.010
you put something else that's infinitely

780
00:33:01.010 --> 00:33:02.800
small next to it, they're never going to,

781
00:33:03.030 --> 00:33:05.950
they're never going to touch, uh, because

782
00:33:05.950 --> 00:33:08.910
the dimensions are infinitely small. But in

783
00:33:08.910 --> 00:33:11.830
fact, as Andrew says, they do merge.

784
00:33:11.830 --> 00:33:14.430
We have evidence of that, uh, from the

785
00:33:14.430 --> 00:33:16.910
gravitational wave observations that have

786
00:33:16.910 --> 00:33:19.350
been made, um, over the past, uh, two or

787
00:33:19.350 --> 00:33:21.350
three years. Um, and

788
00:33:22.080 --> 00:33:24.530
uh, there is this phenomenon, um,

789
00:33:25.350 --> 00:33:27.510
called the ring down, which is

790
00:33:28.230 --> 00:33:30.750
the sort of aftermath of the merging. Now I

791
00:33:30.750 --> 00:33:33.030
don't know enough about black hole physics to

792
00:33:33.680 --> 00:33:36.360
understand specifically what the mechanism of

793
00:33:36.360 --> 00:33:38.720
the ring down is, but I suspect that is where

794
00:33:39.120 --> 00:33:41.840
the evidence comes that you actually

795
00:33:41.920 --> 00:33:44.560
have now merged black holes. In fact,

796
00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:47.920
we know the evidence is there, um, because

797
00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:50.800
you wind up with a black hole whose mass

798
00:33:51.840 --> 00:33:54.120
is actually usually slightly less than the

799
00:33:54.120 --> 00:33:55.960
sum of the masses of the two black holes that

800
00:33:55.960 --> 00:33:58.960
have merged. And um, the excess has gone into

801
00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:01.480
creating the gravitational waves. It's mass

802
00:34:01.480 --> 00:34:04.150
into energy. Uh, but um,

803
00:34:04.260 --> 00:34:06.580
Andrew goes on to make an interesting point.

804
00:34:06.580 --> 00:34:09.580
He says, or is the

805
00:34:09.580 --> 00:34:11.620
fact that black holes do merge. Actually

806
00:34:11.700 --> 00:34:14.020
evidence that singularities have a size,

807
00:34:14.020 --> 00:34:16.860
perhaps a sphere with a diameter of one

808
00:34:16.860 --> 00:34:19.060
Planck length. Now

809
00:34:19.460 --> 00:34:22.020
introducing the Planck length is a

810
00:34:22.580 --> 00:34:25.180
really, ah, neat way of sidestepping the idea

811
00:34:25.180 --> 00:34:28.140
of an infinitesimally small object,

812
00:34:28.140 --> 00:34:31.130
because the Planck length is defined

813
00:34:31.690 --> 00:34:33.930
as being the smallest

814
00:34:34.090 --> 00:34:37.010
distance. And it does have a

815
00:34:37.010 --> 00:34:39.330
proper physical definition. In fact, it's

816
00:34:39.330 --> 00:34:41.970
actually the distance that light travels in

817
00:34:41.970 --> 00:34:44.730
one unit of Planck time. Uh, so that

818
00:34:44.890 --> 00:34:46.570
raises the question, well, what's Planck

819
00:34:46.570 --> 00:34:49.410
time? Um, let me just

820
00:34:49.410 --> 00:34:51.330
summarize though, and this is coming directly

821
00:34:51.330 --> 00:34:53.970
off Wikipedia. The Planck length can be

822
00:34:53.970 --> 00:34:56.820
defined. Uh, sorry, uh, from. Yeah,

823
00:34:56.820 --> 00:34:58.340
let me read it. The Planck length can be

824
00:34:58.340 --> 00:35:00.060
defined from three fundamental physical

825
00:35:00.060 --> 00:35:01.900
constants. The speed of light in a vacuum,

826
00:35:02.060 --> 00:35:04.560
the Planck constant. That's something, um,

827
00:35:04.560 --> 00:35:06.900
which physicists are very familiar with. And

828
00:35:06.900 --> 00:35:09.620
the gravitational constant. It's the smallest

829
00:35:09.620 --> 00:35:12.060
distance about which current

830
00:35:12.780 --> 00:35:15.660
experimentally corroborated models of

831
00:35:15.660 --> 00:35:18.460
physics can make meaningful statements.

832
00:35:19.260 --> 00:35:22.140
So what it says is. And I'll go on. At such

833
00:35:22.140 --> 00:35:24.500
small distances, the conventional laws of

834
00:35:24.500 --> 00:35:27.400
macrophysics no longer apply, and even

835
00:35:27.720 --> 00:35:29.680
relativistic physics requires special

836
00:35:29.680 --> 00:35:32.240
treatment. The bottom line is that a Planck

837
00:35:32.240 --> 00:35:35.000
length below that, all bets are off. We

838
00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:37.360
really don't understand what is happening to

839
00:35:37.360 --> 00:35:39.880
the physics. And maybe Andrew's point is well

840
00:35:39.880 --> 00:35:42.760
made that, uh, a Planck length

841
00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:45.960
black hole is actually what you

842
00:35:45.960 --> 00:35:47.750
have at the center of, uh,

843
00:35:48.440 --> 00:35:51.440
constituting a black hole system. Um, I need

844
00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:54.180
to talk to my, uh, expert friends about

845
00:35:54.180 --> 00:35:56.980
this because, um, at this level of

846
00:35:56.980 --> 00:35:59.660
technicality, my knowledge is

847
00:35:59.820 --> 00:36:02.540
not specialist, But I do know people

848
00:36:02.540 --> 00:36:05.260
whose knowledge is far better than mine.

849
00:36:05.340 --> 00:36:08.300
And next time I run into them, uh, I'm going

850
00:36:08.300 --> 00:36:10.820
to ask them exactly about these questions and

851
00:36:10.820 --> 00:36:13.260
hopefully feed back to space nuts and to

852
00:36:13.260 --> 00:36:15.580
Andrew and his, um, fellow listeners.

853
00:36:15.740 --> 00:36:18.620
Andrew Dunkley: Okay, so the question remains open, Andrew.

854
00:36:19.260 --> 00:36:19.660
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.

855
00:36:19.660 --> 00:36:21.500
Andrew Dunkley: I think we'll give you a definite maybe.

856
00:36:22.470 --> 00:36:23.790
Professor Fred Watson: Maybe it's the answer. Yes.

857
00:36:23.790 --> 00:36:25.550
Andrew Dunkley: All right, thanks, Andrew. Thanks for the

858
00:36:25.550 --> 00:36:27.110
question. Let's move on to a question from

859
00:36:27.110 --> 00:36:29.070
Ulf Petersen in Sweden.

860
00:36:29.070 --> 00:36:31.950
Yeah, uh, alf, I've got some news from you

861
00:36:31.950 --> 00:36:33.830
which you may or may not be aware of, but,

862
00:36:33.830 --> 00:36:36.470
uh, a young lady named Julia Engstrom,

863
00:36:36.550 --> 00:36:39.350
A professional golfer from Sweden, Just

864
00:36:39.350 --> 00:36:42.070
won the new south wales women's open,

865
00:36:42.070 --> 00:36:44.270
which we hosted here in dubbo a couple of

866
00:36:44.270 --> 00:36:44.710
weeks ago.

867
00:36:45.110 --> 00:36:45.510
Professor Fred Watson: Great.

868
00:36:45.510 --> 00:36:48.350
Andrew Dunkley: I. Because our course was closed to play for

869
00:36:48.350 --> 00:36:51.070
members, um, uh, we got to go out there and

870
00:36:51.070 --> 00:36:52.790
watch these young ladies go around. It was a

871
00:36:52.790 --> 00:36:55.770
European tour event. Uh, she won

872
00:36:55.770 --> 00:36:57.770
not only her share of the prize money, but a

873
00:36:57.770 --> 00:36:59.450
two year exemption on the European tour.

874
00:36:59.450 --> 00:37:02.250
She's 18 years old. And she

875
00:37:02.250 --> 00:37:04.730
swings it like a champion. I mean, she was

876
00:37:04.730 --> 00:37:07.250
hitting it 260 to 280 meters,

877
00:37:07.650 --> 00:37:10.010
whaling it past me. And she's just a slip of

878
00:37:10.010 --> 00:37:12.890
a kid, but, uh, remarkable player and

879
00:37:12.890 --> 00:37:14.490
someone to watch out for in the future, if

880
00:37:14.490 --> 00:37:16.610
you're a golfer. Julia Engstrom is her name.

881
00:37:16.690 --> 00:37:19.290
So there you go, Ulf. A little bit of. I can

882
00:37:19.290 --> 00:37:20.770
feel his pride swelling now.

883
00:37:21.480 --> 00:37:24.230
Um, now he says hello, uh, Andrew and

884
00:37:24.230 --> 00:37:26.150
Fred, uh, what a fantastic community you've

885
00:37:26.150 --> 00:37:28.190
started. And it's a global one, too. I've

886
00:37:28.190 --> 00:37:30.310
been a faithful listener of your pods now for

887
00:37:30.310 --> 00:37:32.150
a year and enjoy them very much. Never

888
00:37:32.150 --> 00:37:34.190
imagined Thursdays could be that exciting.

889
00:37:34.750 --> 00:37:36.829
I'd usually say something derogatory, but I'm

890
00:37:36.829 --> 00:37:39.550
feeling good today. Um, don't know if

891
00:37:39.550 --> 00:37:41.590
this question might be of interest to the

892
00:37:41.590 --> 00:37:44.030
show. Is there any chance that it's a black

893
00:37:44.030 --> 00:37:45.950
hole question? By the way, Fred, is there any

894
00:37:45.950 --> 00:37:48.650
chance that a black hole might not exist in

895
00:37:48.650 --> 00:37:51.410
its, uh. Inside its event horizon? After all,

896
00:37:51.410 --> 00:37:53.330
black holes are claimed to be singularities

897
00:37:53.330 --> 00:37:55.650
that is infinitesimal in size.

898
00:37:56.210 --> 00:37:58.730
In practical terms, nothing. Right. Uh, if

899
00:37:58.730 --> 00:38:01.650
so, could an event horizon act as a sort

900
00:38:01.650 --> 00:38:04.170
of a delayed postal service, never

901
00:38:04.170 --> 00:38:06.850
informing anyone outside what has

902
00:38:06.850 --> 00:38:08.930
happened? So, like Australia Post, really?

903
00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:11.850
Um, no, they're great. Actually, uh, there's

904
00:38:11.850 --> 00:38:14.130
another piece of news. Dubbo Post Office

905
00:38:14.940 --> 00:38:17.820
here in town. Got Post Office of the Year.

906
00:38:18.140 --> 00:38:20.100
Professor Fred Watson: Oh, uh, fabulous. That's great, Nick.

907
00:38:20.100 --> 00:38:22.580
Andrew Dunkley: About a month ago. So we're doing it right

908
00:38:22.580 --> 00:38:23.180
here, aren't we?

909
00:38:23.380 --> 00:38:24.820
Professor Fred Watson: Uh, you're doing well in Dubbo.

910
00:38:24.820 --> 00:38:27.660
Andrew Dunkley: Extra questions. Would physics allow matter

911
00:38:27.820 --> 00:38:30.240
still to be pulled into the vent event, uh,

912
00:38:30.459 --> 00:38:33.380
into the horizon, even if the black hole was

913
00:38:33.380 --> 00:38:33.820
gone?

914
00:38:35.420 --> 00:38:37.670
Professor Fred Watson: Great, uh, question, Ulf. And, um,

915
00:38:38.460 --> 00:38:41.450
In. In a sense, the. The, um. He's right

916
00:38:41.450 --> 00:38:44.130
about the event horizon acting as a delayed

917
00:38:44.130 --> 00:38:46.010
postal service because,

918
00:38:47.090 --> 00:38:49.770
um, it stops the transfer of information.

919
00:38:49.930 --> 00:38:52.370
We do know that, uh, black holes can

920
00:38:52.370 --> 00:38:55.290
evaporate courtesy of Hawking radiation.

921
00:38:55.770 --> 00:38:58.650
But, um, basically. And that

922
00:38:58.650 --> 00:39:00.770
involves the transfer of information. We know

923
00:39:00.770 --> 00:39:02.810
that, but it's very, very slow. So

924
00:39:03.610 --> 00:39:06.530
the event horizon does shield the black

925
00:39:06.530 --> 00:39:08.610
hole from the outside world, if I can put it

926
00:39:08.610 --> 00:39:11.540
that way. But, um, in terms of

927
00:39:11.860 --> 00:39:13.860
whether the black hole itself exists,

928
00:39:14.580 --> 00:39:16.620
it's kind of the other way around. The only

929
00:39:16.620 --> 00:39:19.260
way the event horizon can exist is if there

930
00:39:19.260 --> 00:39:21.410
is a black hole at the center. Uh,

931
00:39:22.340 --> 00:39:24.660
in other words, this infinitesimally small

932
00:39:24.740 --> 00:39:26.900
singularity, essentially

933
00:39:27.140 --> 00:39:29.460
distorting space time to the extent that

934
00:39:29.460 --> 00:39:31.420
you've got this shield around it, this black

935
00:39:31.420 --> 00:39:34.300
hole. The black hole. Uh, sorry, the black

936
00:39:34.300 --> 00:39:37.100
hole. Event horizon. The event horizon, in

937
00:39:37.100 --> 00:39:39.560
some ways, Is an illusion, Andrew, because,

938
00:39:40.020 --> 00:39:42.760
um, it's just the point of no return. It's

939
00:39:43.000 --> 00:39:45.160
the thing that won't let light out. And it

940
00:39:45.160 --> 00:39:47.800
certainly is black. We've seen that from the

941
00:39:47.800 --> 00:39:50.680
event horizon image, uh, that was released

942
00:39:50.680 --> 00:39:53.320
last year. But, uh, without the black

943
00:39:53.320 --> 00:39:56.280
hole, the event horizon doesn't exist. So,

944
00:39:56.580 --> 00:39:59.160
uh, there has to be this

945
00:39:59.160 --> 00:40:01.400
singularity at the middle with all its

946
00:40:01.640 --> 00:40:04.640
complicated, uh, infinitesimally small

947
00:40:04.640 --> 00:40:06.920
planck length dimensions that we've just been

948
00:40:07.320 --> 00:40:10.310
discussing. Um, yeah, great question though,

949
00:40:10.310 --> 00:40:12.350
and thank you very much. And yes, Sweden

950
00:40:12.350 --> 00:40:13.990
rocks. I was there not very long ago.

951
00:40:14.070 --> 00:40:16.030
Andrew Dunkley: And as monty python says, nothing can come

952
00:40:16.030 --> 00:40:19.030
from nothing. Can't be nothing.

953
00:40:20.150 --> 00:40:20.880
Professor Fred Watson: Yes, yes.

954
00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:23.110
Andrew Dunkley: Um, thanks, alf. Appreciate the question.

955
00:40:23.670 --> 00:40:26.110
One more thing before we finish up, fred, and

956
00:40:26.110 --> 00:40:28.630
this is, um, a little bit of, um, an add on

957
00:40:28.630 --> 00:40:30.550
from a question about the roche limit. A

958
00:40:30.550 --> 00:40:32.030
couple of weeks ago, we were trying to figure

959
00:40:32.030 --> 00:40:34.390
out the roche limit between

960
00:40:35.110 --> 00:40:36.990
the earth and the moon. And as you explained,

961
00:40:36.990 --> 00:40:39.460
the roche limit is the point where gravity,

962
00:40:39.460 --> 00:40:42.270
uh, will destroy one of the

963
00:40:42.270 --> 00:40:45.230
objects involved, um, uh, in

964
00:40:45.230 --> 00:40:47.630
the, uh, situation. So, um, you could

965
00:40:47.630 --> 00:40:49.230
probably explain it better than I just did.

966
00:40:49.230 --> 00:40:52.110
But, um, uh, basically we were trying

967
00:40:52.110 --> 00:40:54.470
to figure out how close the moon could get to

968
00:40:54.470 --> 00:40:57.030
the earth before it was obliterated. Yeah,

969
00:40:57.430 --> 00:40:59.470
life on earth would probably be obliterated

970
00:40:59.470 --> 00:40:59.750
too.

971
00:40:59.750 --> 00:41:01.550
Professor Fred Watson: Well, that's right. It would be a tricky

972
00:41:01.550 --> 00:41:03.930
situation for all of us. But it is. It's much

973
00:41:03.930 --> 00:41:06.450
less than I thought it would be, Andrew.

974
00:41:06.790 --> 00:41:08.850
Um, the roche limit for the moon is

975
00:41:08.850 --> 00:41:11.570
9,492 kilometers.

976
00:41:11.730 --> 00:41:13.490
And I think that's from the center of the

977
00:41:13.490 --> 00:41:16.070
earth. So it's actually 3,004, uh,

978
00:41:16.370 --> 00:41:19.210
114 kilometers above the surface. Imagine

979
00:41:19.210 --> 00:41:21.650
the moon 3,000 kilometers above the surface.

980
00:41:21.650 --> 00:41:22.130
Whoa.

981
00:41:22.130 --> 00:41:23.250
Andrew Dunkley: Wouldn't it look amazing?

982
00:41:23.490 --> 00:41:25.290
Professor Fred Watson: It would look pretty amazing. That's right.

983
00:41:25.290 --> 00:41:27.490
Andrew Dunkley: Just for a few moments until we all died of

984
00:41:27.490 --> 00:41:28.370
fire or die.

985
00:41:28.370 --> 00:41:31.060
Professor Fred Watson: I guess that's right. Yeah.

986
00:41:31.060 --> 00:41:32.860
Andrew Dunkley: But that's okay. We'd have plenty of toilet

987
00:41:32.860 --> 00:41:33.220
paper.

988
00:41:33.540 --> 00:41:35.540
Professor Fred Watson: Ah, ah, we would. We'd be all right. Yes.

989
00:41:35.940 --> 00:41:37.940
Andrew Dunkley: So three, uh, so 9,000.

990
00:41:39.540 --> 00:41:42.420
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, 9,492 kilometers

991
00:41:42.500 --> 00:41:43.660
from the center of the earth.

992
00:41:43.660 --> 00:41:45.900
Andrew Dunkley: Close as it could get before it was destroyed

993
00:41:45.900 --> 00:41:48.700
by our gravity. And we would go down with the

994
00:41:48.700 --> 00:41:49.060
ship.

995
00:41:49.940 --> 00:41:51.220
Professor Fred Watson: Absolutely. Yeah.

996
00:41:51.220 --> 00:41:53.020
Andrew Dunkley: In a nutshell. All right, now we've got that

997
00:41:53.020 --> 00:41:55.340
sorted out. Uh, thank you, Fred, so much.

998
00:41:55.340 --> 00:41:56.260
It's always a pleasure.

999
00:41:57.310 --> 00:41:58.790
Professor Fred Watson: It's always a pleasure talking to you too,

1000
00:41:58.790 --> 00:42:00.590
Andrew. And we'll speak again soon, I hope.

1001
00:42:00.590 --> 00:42:02.750
Andrew Dunkley: You will indeed. And thank you for, uh,

1002
00:42:02.750 --> 00:42:04.350
listening. Thank you for your contributions.

1003
00:42:04.430 --> 00:42:06.350
Keep them coming. We love to hear from you,

1004
00:42:06.350 --> 00:42:08.430
whether it's on social media or via our

1005
00:42:08.430 --> 00:42:10.870
website where you can send us emails. Uh, we

1006
00:42:10.870 --> 00:42:12.870
have a little contact form there, so you can

1007
00:42:12.870 --> 00:42:15.590
send us questions and, uh, to the

1008
00:42:15.590 --> 00:42:17.670
patrons. There'll be some bonus material

1009
00:42:17.670 --> 00:42:20.190
coming up real soon. Uh, other than that,

1010
00:42:20.270 --> 00:42:22.670
thank you and we'll see you again next time

1011
00:42:22.670 --> 00:42:25.110
on another edition of the Space Nuts

1012
00:42:25.110 --> 00:42:27.900
Podcast, Space Notes. You'll be this

1013
00:42:28.060 --> 00:42:29.900
to the SpaceNuts Podcast,

1014
00:42:31.420 --> 00:42:33.980
available in Apple Podcasts, Google

1015
00:42:33.980 --> 00:42:35.580
Podcasts, Spotify,

1016
00:42:35.820 --> 00:42:38.580
iHeartRadio, or your favorite podcast

1017
00:42:38.580 --> 00:42:41.020
player. You can also stream on demand@ah,

1018
00:42:41.180 --> 00:42:41.900
bytes.com.

1019
00:42:42.300 --> 00:42:44.380
Professor Fred Watson: This has been another quality podcast

1020
00:42:44.380 --> 00:42:46.460
production from Thights.com.