Quantum Quandaries: Photons, Black Holes & the Secrets of Cosmic Orbits

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Heidi Campo: Welcome back to another exciting Q A

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episode of space nuts.

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Voice Over Guy: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal.

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10, 9. Ignition

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sequence time. Space nuts. 5, 4, 3,

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2. 1. 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 4,

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3, 2, 1. Space nuts.

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Astronauts report. It feels good.

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Heidi Campo: I'm your host for this episode, Heidi Campo. Filling

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in for Andrew Dunkley. Joining me today

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is Professor Fred Watson, astronomer at

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large. How are you today, Fred?

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Professor Fred Watson: I'm fine, thanks. I'm still at large, uh,

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which is always good. Uh, no, very well,

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thank you Heidi, and I hope you are too.

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How's the weather doing in Houston? You were

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concerned about the heat and the

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rain and.

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Heidi Campo: Oh, it's been beautiful. Last, uh, couple days have really

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been nice. I actually sat out, um, on

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the, on that patio. We have a little patio in our backyard.

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Had a little sparkling water, watched my dog play in the

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yard and it was pretty nice. I think they sprayed for the

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mosquitoes recently. So those have calmed down.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, that's right.

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Heidi Campo: And no hurricanes yet, which is, let's knock uh,

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on wood because that's my favorite part

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right now is not having.

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Professor Fred Watson: Hurricanes as it would be.

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Yeah.

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Heidi Campo: All right, well, we have uh, our first

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question today is uh, from

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Greg from Minnesota, also a

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hurricane free zone. You're safe

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from the hurricanes, Greg. I hope you're enjoying not having them

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in Minnesota. And uh, Greg

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says, g' day, Fred. And howdy

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Heidi. I'm Greg from Minnesota

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usa and I have a question about photons

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and quantum energy levels. We know that

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energy is quanticized, that

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therefore photons can only exist at

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certain discrete energy levels. We also know that

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space is expanding and that travel traveling through the expanding

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space saps energy from the traveling

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photons. What happens when a photon has been

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traveling so long, so far that the

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energy it carries drops below the minimum

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allowed quantum energy level?

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Does it disappear? I love the podcast and

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I'm looking forward to your answer.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, this is, ah, I think this is a great question and

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it certainly had me scratching my head, Heidi.

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Uh, it sent me to um, the

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Fermilab, which of course is uh, one

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of the key, uh, nuclear

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physics facilities in your country.

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Uh, they um, have a marvelous

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website called uh, Physics Questions People Ask

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Fermilab. And I think the,

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the nuances of the answer, uh, are

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probably best expressed by uh, the,

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the um, the account that

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I've got in front of me which is by

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uh, one of their uh, PhD physicists.

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In fact, uh, Lila is the

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editor of the Office of Public Affairs, Lila

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Belcora, who says, and

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I think this puts it

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a little bit into perspective let's put

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aside the idea of a photon losing

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energy in transit as an explanation

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for redshift. A photon doesn't lose

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energy unless it collides with a particle.

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Uh, photons can scatter off interstellar electrons,

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for example. Uh, photons carry

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energy, but they don't lose energy just

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because they travel. And this

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is the key to it, as Lila says, the

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key to understanding the dilemma of a

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redshifted photon. And that's to say, one

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that's traveling through space, uh, through

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expanding space. And so the space has expanded, the photon

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has been redshifted. It's got, uh, a lower energy

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level. Uh, the key to understanding that

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dilemma is that not all observers will

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measure the same energy of the photon. Let's say an

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observer is traveling with a star or galaxy and sees a

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photon in the yellow portion of the spectrum. An

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observer who is moving with respect to the star,

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and it doesn't matter if it's a star or the observer moving away

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sees the same photon in the red part of

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the spectrum. That's okay. It doesn't

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violate the principle of conservation, conservation of

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energy, because they make their measurements in different

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reference frames. So,

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um, that's a complicated way of

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saying, uh, that,

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um, uh,

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yes, uh, photon energy is quantized,

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but it's never going to reach a stage

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when it falls, uh, below

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the minimum allowed quantum energy level.

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So it doesn't disappear. Um, I

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hope, Greg, that explains, uh, the answer to

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your question. Uh, it's one that had me scratching my head for

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quite a while. And I thought that Lila's comment in

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the Fermilab website actually put it very

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well. Uh, if you want to follow up on that, it's pretty easy to

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find. Just look for inquiring minds, physics

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questions people ask Fermilab, and, uh,

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uh, have a look at it. It's um, very nicely

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written and perhaps lays to rest

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some of the things that we do think of. We take for

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granted that photons are losing energy because they get red sh.

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Shifted, but they're only redshifted in our frame of

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reference. Ah, that's the

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interesting nuance, uh, to this question.

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Heidi Campo: Yeah, I'm still wrapping my head around that one.

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That's so interesting. Whenever you go

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anywhere close to the world of quantum,

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it's just everything changes. All the

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rules change.

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Professor Fred Watson: That's right, they do. Um, a lot of

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it's completely counterintuitive, uh, but

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it seems to work. We, uh,

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hear about in quantum physics, uh, for

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example, entanglement, this idea that

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you can bring two particles together and they'll behave as one

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particle. Even though you then separate them, uh, they

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still think they're one particle. That

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is quite counterintuitive.

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Heidi Campo: Yeah, there was a cute little movie that came

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out recently. Um, it had Chris Pratt

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and. Oh, my gosh, everyone's

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gonna make fun of me because I can't remember the girl's name. She's the girl

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who's from Stranger Things. She's very,

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she's very famous right now. But their whole. The whole

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premise was once particles

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touch, then they're never separated. And it was kind

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of a, like a love story type thing. It was kind of cute.

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But, yeah, once particles have. Have touched, you never lose

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that connection. It was kind of cute.

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Um, well, our next question is from

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Russell, and this is an audio question.

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So we are. I'm going to give Fred a second to cue that

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up, and then we are going to play that question

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for you guys to listen to you now. And then

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Fred is going to answer that question for all of you. So

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here is Russell's question.

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Mikey: Hello, Fred and Andrew. This is Russell, uh,

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from Reading in the uk. Um, there's been a

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recent suggestion that the universe is inside a black

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hole. But my understanding is that the event

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horizon of a black hole is a. Not a thin membrane,

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but extends all the way down to the singularity.

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Um, this means that light and everything else can only travel in one

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direction, which is towards the singularity.

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So it would be immediately obvious if we were inside a black hole,

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because you could only see in one direction, which is

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away from the singularity. What have

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I missed? Thanks for the great show.

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Professor Fred Watson: So Russell's asking what he missed,

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and I don't think he missed anything, actually, because, um,

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you know, the idea of the

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universe being a black

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hole or the whole universe being within a black hole

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is extremely, um,

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speculative and really

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does not have the, uh,

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imprimatur of the scientific community.

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And that's just another way of saying nobody believes it.

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Um, and so, um, uh, you know,

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questions like that, I think are very good ones because

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intuitively you would expect that to be the

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case. Now, um, just pursuing

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this a bit further. The

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people who work on theories that

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perhaps the universe is inside a black

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hole, they are not stupid.

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So they're people who

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have big, great insights in physics.

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Uh, and so I suspect, um, their

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thinking is along the lines that

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if we are, if we're in a black

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hole, we're not just within the event horizon.

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We may well be within the

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singularity. Because a black hole is a singularity.

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It's A point where physics breaks down. Uh,

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it's basically a point of zero

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dimensions and infinite density.

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Um, are we inside that? Uh,

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if so, that would mean all bets are off. We wouldn't

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have any idea how physics worked. But the universe

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seems to be pretty well behaved and we can understand it from the

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physical laws that we have. Um, if we're

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inside the event horizon, then we should see evidence

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somewhere of the black hole itself.

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Uh, like the kind of thing that Russell suggested, uh,

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like going only one way. We see no evidence

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whatsoever of that kind of thing. The universe,

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uh, as far as we can tell, is isotropic.

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That basically means it's the same in all directions,

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give or take a bit of structure that we find from

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galaxies. Nevertheless, it's more or less the same in

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all directions. And that seems to fly in the face of

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the idea of a black hole universe. So uh, I think

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Russell's asking what he's missing. I don't think he's

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missing anything. I think he's facing the same sort of

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challenge as people who propose this idea

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have to face. Uh, there's quite a lot of

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material on this topic on the web. Uh,

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not too hard to find. Um, it might be

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worth a poke around. Russell, uh, nice to hear your

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accent coming from reading down there. I know

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reading not that well, but I do know it in

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uh, in uh, south, uh, the south of England.

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There you are.

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Heidi Campo: That was a good question. Um, I,

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I recently re. Watched the movie Oppenheimer and they

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brought up the, with quantum physics and

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yeah, um, everything they said something about, you know,

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about, you know, anybody can do math and, but

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for the real theory it's like can you hear the music?

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Can you see what can't be seen? And I think

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that that's really. We do get a lot of people

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writing in with questions who think like that. We have a

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lot of very creative, very

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scientific minded people who are,

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I mean you guys are, you guys all should be scientists

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because some of the questions we get are very,

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very deep scientific thoughts.

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Professor Fred Watson: Okay, we checked all four systems and.

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Heidi Campo: Being with a girl, space nets, um,

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and that. Let's bring that to our next question

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which is going to be Paul from

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Melbourne, Australia. He says quick

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question. Hello, Heidi, Fred and Andrew.

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When Isaac Newton noticed an apple falling from the

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tree, did the planet Earth

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ever so slightly get tugged toward the

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apple as it fell to the ground?

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Thanks. Love the show. That's Paul from

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Melbourne with another deep, thoughtful

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question.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, I think the answer is yes

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as well. Uh,

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you know, um, when we think of the, and

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this is the Newton idea that gravity was a force.

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Einstein told us it's actually something different from that. It's a

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distortion of space. But, uh, just stick with

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Newton's idea for the moment. Um, the

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mutual attraction between the

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apple and the Earth goes both ways.

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The gravity of the apple would also be attracting the

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Earth, Uh, but not to any

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significant degree, of course, because of the, you know,

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the ratio of their masses is so high. But there

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would be, um, an infinitesimal

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nudge of the Earth up towards the Atlanta.

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Um, I think. So the answer is yes. Um,

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uh, it's a great question, Paul. Uh, Paul

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might also be interested to know that the apple tree is still there.

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Uh, that Newton is, uh, reported

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to have seen the apple falling down.

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Um, the place where he worked out his

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theory of gravity. He was actually in

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quarantine from Cambridge in a place called

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Lincolnshire, which is further north than Cambridge, when he

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lived in the family manor because they

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were, uh, well, uh, very well healed family.

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But his bedroom window overlooked this

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apple tree in the orchard. Uh, and

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so maybe it was looking out of his bedroom window

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that he saw apples falling and made him think about

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this force that pulls stuff down to the ground,

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which is the same force that keeps the Earth in its orbit around

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the sun and keeps the moon in orbit around the Earth.

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Um, so, um, it's nice that the apple tree is still there.

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It's got a fence, uh, around it now, so nobody

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cuts it down.

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Heidi Campo: Does it still produce fruit?

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Professor Fred Watson: Uh, I don't know the answer to that, Heidi. Um, it might

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just be a little bit elderly because that was all in the

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1680s when that was happening. So.

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1660s. I beg your pardon. When that was happening.

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Heidi Campo: That would be pretty crazy. I'm just thinking of the

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capitalist thought with that is. Okay, we're gonna sell,

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um, Newton apple juice, and it's gonna be from

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this tree, and we're gonna brand it as. This is the

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genius. This is what genius? The genius apple

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juice.

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Professor Fred Watson: I think you're right on the money there. Uh, and that's probably, that's

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probably the fact that it doesn't produce apples anymore is why

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that hasn't happened.

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Heidi Campo: Yeah, unfortunately.

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Professor Fred Watson: Three, two, one.

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Mikey: Space nuts.

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Heidi Campo: All right, well, our very last question today is

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from Mikey, and this is also another

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audio question, so I'm going to give Fred a chance to

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cue that up, and then we are going to play that for all of

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you to hear Mikey's question, and then Fred will

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answer that. So I'm going to go ahead and play that now.

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Mikey: Hey Fred and Andrew, I hope you're doing well. This is

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Mikey once again from Illinois.

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Um, I wanted to talk about the European Space Agency's

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solar orbiter. And I know that it

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was the first spacecraft to

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ever take images of the north and south pole of the sun,

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which is a huge thing because every time we've taken

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any photos it's been from the ecliptic plane.

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Um, and that got me thinking, was that

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spacecraft or is that spacecraft the

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only thing to ever make that orbit that

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wasn't in the ecliptic plane? Man made or not?

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Is there anything else in our solar system that

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takes that, that kind of orbit

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or was that spacecraft the

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only thing ever in our solar system

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to orbit outside of the ecliptic plane?

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Um, that's just, it's hurting my head

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thinking about that. Uh,

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hopefully that question makes sense to you guys and I can't wait

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to hear the answer.

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Heidi Campo: I can't wait to hear the answer either. This is a really

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good question with quite a

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thought provoking idea to it.

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I, I've never thought of that as well. We don't really often

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see pictures of the top and bottom of the

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celestial bodies.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's right. Um, so the, the,

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so the answer to, to um, Mikey's question,

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um, which is, does anything

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in the solar system orbit outside

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the ecliptic plane? The ecliptic plane being the plane in which

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the planets, uh, and most of the asteroids

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orbit the sun. And the answer is yes, um, comets

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do. So comets come in to

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uh, the inner solar system in their very elongated

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orbits from pretty well all angles.

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Uh, and so they sometimes come from the, you

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know, above the ecliptic plane, sometimes from below it.

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Uh, and um, that's why we think

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that the source of comets is actually a

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spherical shell of cometary material,

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uh because they do come in from all angles. So

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uh, it stands to reason that they're

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uh, their origin. If there is a cloud of these

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things outside the, outside the

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domain, uh, of the planets as we think there is,

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then it would be spherical and we call it the Oort

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cloud. It was Jan Oort, a great Dutch

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astronomer who postulated that. So comets do, they're

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natural objects that do orbit well outside

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the plane of the ecliptic. Um, but in terms

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of uh, spacecraft, uh,

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no, um, there are

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spacecraft that are above uh, and

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below the ecliptic. In fact, Voyager 2 is the

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classic example that ah, uh,

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is heading out of the solar system well below the

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plane of the ecliptic. It's well to the south

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of the ecliptic plane, which is why the only

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radio telescope in the world that could communicate with it is

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here in Australia. Uh, because we see that

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part of the sky. Um, but uh,

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you're absolutely right, Mikey, that uh, this is the

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first time a, uh, spacecraft has

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seen the poles of the sun.

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Um, and it's actually, um, only

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at the moment. I think the tilt

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of the spacecraft's orbits to the ecliptic is only about

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15 degrees. It's not very high, but it's still

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enough to be able to see over the top and uh, uh,

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of the sun. Uh, sorry, uh, it's

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the bottom of the sun, if we put it that way, because I think it's the south polar

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region that's been imaged. Uh, but they are,

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uh, esa, the European Space Agency, have plans

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to increase the tilt of the orbit. So we'll see,

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we'll have a much better view of the Sun's

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south pole. Um,

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the process of

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changing the angle of an orbit is actually

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quite expensive in terms of fuel. It's

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not a straightforward thing to do. Uh, so

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it's uh, you know, it's very ambitious thing to

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do for the

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operators and the mission controllers for the um,

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Solar Orbiter spacecraft to be able to do that. Uh,

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it's obviously been built into the mission. The spacecraft

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um, actually went into orbit around The sun in 2020.

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So it's been working for five years. And

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I think the mission profile has this steady increase

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of the, of the orbital angle. Uh,

395
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what's perhaps even more interesting than that is what they found

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at the Sun's poles, uh, the south pole. And that

397
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is uh, a, uh, confusion

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of magnetic fields. Uh, the Sun's

399
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magnetism is very bizarre. Unlike the Earth, where

400
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the magnetic fields are strongest, uh, around the

401
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poles of the Earth, it's the opposite way

402
00:19:12.320 --> 00:19:15.150
around on the sun. At least at the moment, uh,

403
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it's something that changes with the Sun's 11 year

404
00:19:17.800 --> 00:19:20.680
cycle. Uh, so at the moment

405
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the Sun's magnetic activity is really

406
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mostly around its equator rather than at the

407
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poles. And there's a jumble of magnetic fields,

408
00:19:29.110 --> 00:19:32.020
uh, being discovered at, ah, the poles, which is

409
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probably due to the fact that at the

410
00:19:34.740 --> 00:19:37.620
peak of the Sun's activity, which is where we are now,

411
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the magnetic field of the sun actually switches from

412
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north to south. Uh, and so that might be why we're

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seeing this confusion at the pole of the Sun.

414
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So yeah, great question and such an

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interesting spacecraft as well. I once again

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encourage you to get online and check out

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Issa's solar orbiter there's some fabulous stuff on

418
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the web with many, many images of

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what's happening, uh, near the sun's poles.

420
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Heidi Campo: Yeah, I think I was reading about that one recently too. And

421
00:20:06.560 --> 00:20:09.360
yeah, I mean, really, this industry is picking up.

422
00:20:09.360 --> 00:20:12.160
There's so much happening every day it's hard to keep

423
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track of.

424
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But uh, we mentioned this a little bit before

425
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we started recording, but Fred, you

426
00:20:18.080 --> 00:20:21.000
subscribed to so many, um, news resources and

427
00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:24.000
it's your morning routine. I've got one question for you

428
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about how much time do you dedicate

429
00:20:27.150 --> 00:20:29.950
a morning to reading through the space

430
00:20:29.950 --> 00:20:32.870
news and updating, updating yourself to stay

431
00:20:32.870 --> 00:20:35.710
up to date? Can you walk us through a little bit of what that routine

432
00:20:35.710 --> 00:20:38.630
looks like for people who want to, you know,

433
00:20:38.630 --> 00:20:41.190
who kind of aspire to be a little bit more like you and have that

434
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discipline?

435
00:20:42.590 --> 00:20:45.590
Professor Fred Watson: It's um. I always feel that I spend

436
00:20:45.590 --> 00:20:48.470
too much time doing it because I've always

437
00:20:48.470 --> 00:20:50.990
got things that I want to achieve

438
00:20:51.230 --> 00:20:53.950
during the day. And usually it's writing an article

439
00:20:54.030 --> 00:20:57.020
or, you know, at the

440
00:20:57.020 --> 00:20:59.780
moment I'm trying to get my head around some, uh, some

441
00:21:00.100 --> 00:21:02.900
legal stuff that I'm involved with in terms

442
00:21:02.900 --> 00:21:05.740
of, um, uh, acting, uh,

443
00:21:05.780 --> 00:21:08.780
on behalf of. I won't say

444
00:21:08.780 --> 00:21:11.540
what it's about, but it's astronomy related,

445
00:21:12.330 --> 00:21:15.140
uh, you know, legal, legal issues.

446
00:21:15.140 --> 00:21:18.020
So that, that's the kind of thing that I should be really getting onto.

447
00:21:18.340 --> 00:21:20.660
But my head really wants to soak in

448
00:21:20.980 --> 00:21:23.620
what's coming out in the science news. So

449
00:21:23.700 --> 00:21:26.660
sometimes it's an hour, uh, in the morning that I

450
00:21:27.040 --> 00:21:29.800
spend delving into these stories. Uh, because

451
00:21:29.800 --> 00:21:32.400
you, you know, you see a headline and

452
00:21:33.050 --> 00:21:35.680
uh, especially when you're, I mean, I've spent my

453
00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:38.360
entire life working in this field. So it's

454
00:21:38.360 --> 00:21:41.280
stuff that, that has basically been

455
00:21:41.280 --> 00:21:43.880
second nature to me. So quite often I'll see a

456
00:21:43.880 --> 00:21:46.760
headline and think, but wait a minute, if that's the

457
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case, then this mustn't be right. And that

458
00:21:49.720 --> 00:21:52.720
mustn't be right. And that sucks me in straight away.

459
00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:55.720
It's like clickbait almost. And it

460
00:21:55.720 --> 00:21:58.480
works perfectly for me, uh, because it,

461
00:21:59.180 --> 00:22:02.180
I see a headline, it immediately raises questions. So yeah, I've got to look

462
00:22:02.180 --> 00:22:04.900
at that story. So yes, it's

463
00:22:04.900 --> 00:22:07.860
probably, you know, as I said, it's part of the morning routine. I

464
00:22:07.860 --> 00:22:10.780
would say typically half

465
00:22:10.780 --> 00:22:13.700
an hour, but often it's more like an hour and sometimes all

466
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morning if there's really interesting stuff going on.

467
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Heidi Campo: Well, thank you for sharing your uh, all

468
00:22:20.260 --> 00:22:21.260
the knowledge with us.

469
00:22:21.820 --> 00:22:24.540
Professor Fred Watson: Oh, well, uh, yes, it's all secondhand

470
00:22:24.540 --> 00:22:27.220
knowledge. Well, a lot of it is. Some of it is stuff I've worked on

471
00:22:27.220 --> 00:22:30.150
myself, but. But a lot of, uh, what I do

472
00:22:30.150 --> 00:22:32.950
is really, um, in a sense, it's my

473
00:22:32.950 --> 00:22:35.510
way of paying homage to these fabulous

474
00:22:35.510 --> 00:22:38.470
scientists who are working around the world on stuff that's very

475
00:22:38.470 --> 00:22:41.110
close to my heart and yours, too, Heidi, in

476
00:22:41.590 --> 00:22:44.310
space, uh, research and astronomy.

477
00:22:44.710 --> 00:22:47.270
So, um, it's a great way to

478
00:22:47.590 --> 00:22:50.150
perhaps give back to those researchers,

479
00:22:50.580 --> 00:22:53.510
uh, a little bit of the kudos that, uh,

480
00:22:53.510 --> 00:22:56.070
they deserve, uh, on a wider platform,

481
00:22:56.630 --> 00:22:58.470
which is, I guess, what Space Nuts is.

482
00:22:58.950 --> 00:23:01.910
Heidi Campo: Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's. That's how I originally found the podcast

483
00:23:01.910 --> 00:23:04.910
is. I just wanted a different medium to start learning more about space.

484
00:23:04.910 --> 00:23:05.990
And here we are.

485
00:23:06.710 --> 00:23:09.190
Professor Fred Watson: There you are. Yeah, you definitely got sucked in,

486
00:23:09.190 --> 00:23:09.750
Heidi.

487
00:23:09.830 --> 00:23:12.710
Heidi Campo: I got sucked in. Your. Your, uh, your

488
00:23:12.710 --> 00:23:13.670
orbit was strong.

489
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All right, everybody, well, this has been another

490
00:23:17.430 --> 00:23:20.150
wonderful episode. Thank you so much for tuning in.

491
00:23:20.230 --> 00:23:23.030
Please keep your amazing questions coming. You guys really

492
00:23:23.030 --> 00:23:25.870
are half the show, and we appreciate you and we look

493
00:23:25.870 --> 00:23:28.730
forward to these questions. Um, with that

494
00:23:28.730 --> 00:23:31.610
being said, I have nothing else to say. Fred, do you want

495
00:23:31.610 --> 00:23:32.530
to sign us off?

496
00:23:33.250 --> 00:23:36.210
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, just, uh, keep. Keep an eye on what's

497
00:23:36.210 --> 00:23:39.090
going on. Space astronomy, uh, is looking up, as we all say,

498
00:23:39.480 --> 00:23:42.450
uh, and it's true, certainly, of space science as well.

499
00:23:42.450 --> 00:23:45.170
So keep on looking up, keep on tuning into Spacenauts,

500
00:23:45.410 --> 00:23:46.930
and we'll catch you next time.

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Voice Over Guy: You've been listening to the Space Nuts podcast,

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