Martian Timekeeping: Synchronizing Clocks, Eccentric Orbits & Space Gum Discoveries

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Andrew Dunkley: Hello there. Thanks for joining us on Space

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Nuts, where we talk astronomy and space

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science and sometimes canines.

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And coming up in this

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episode, does anybody really know what time

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it is on Mars? Well,

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apparently they've worked out a way, and it's

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really fascinating. And there's a good reason

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for it, too. We're also going to talk about

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the weird orbit of TOI

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3884B. I

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was only there last week. And chewing gum on

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Asteroids. It's a thing. That's all coming

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up on this episode of space nuts.

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Voice Over Guy: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal.

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10, 9, ignition

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sequence. Star space nuts. 5, 4, 3,

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2, 1, 2, 3. 4, 5, 5, 4,

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3, 2', 1. Space nuts.

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Astronauts report it feels good.

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Andrew Dunkley: And he's back again.

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For more, here's Professor Fred Watson,

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astronomer at large. Hello, Fred.

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Professor Fred Watson: Hello, Andrew. Complete with the dog.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yes, yes. good old Jordy.

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He's great value. I still laugh at

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the way he greeted us when we went to your

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place a month or so back and

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came tearing down the stairs.

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Professor Fred Watson: That's right. That's it. But that's his,

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modus operandi. Yes, it is. And it's

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not aggressive. It's just, exciting.

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Hello, how are you? But it just goes beside

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himself when.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.

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Professor Fred Watson: Anyway, he's already had a session this

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morning, standing at the bottom of our stairs

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yelling at something, and I have no idea what

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it was.

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Andrew Dunkley: Probably a blade of grass that got.

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Professor Fred Watson: Blown in the weed. Yeah, yeah. That's the

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level at which he gets excited. Absolutely.

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Oh, blade of grass.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. I love it.

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Okay, we have got some really interesting

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topics today. We've always got interesting

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topics, but this is a really great

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combination. we're talking time, weird

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orbits, and chewing gum. let's start

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on mar. and to quote the famous

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song, does anybody really know what time it

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is? Mars is a

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bit of a problem when it comes to time. And

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so is the moon to a certain degree, because

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time doesn't run the same way in those places

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as it does on Earth. And going forward, that

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could become an issue because we're going to

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ultimately spend time on Mars,

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wandering around growing potatoes. But,

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we need to be able to get the time right.

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Professor Fred Watson: We do. and, I mean, there are some

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sort of basic facts before you get into the

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nitty gritty, which include the

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fact that a day on Mars is 40

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minutes longer than a day on Earth. So,

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about 24 hours and 40 minutes. And of course,

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a year on Mars is longer, too. It's, 600 and

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something days of our days. 687,

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is the length of time a Martian year.

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So they're the easy

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bits, they're the givens. But if

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you're trying to synchronize your

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clocks, between Earth and Mars,

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and this is kind of already happening, with

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the rovers, the fact that the rovers are

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actually controlled from Earth. But, because

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of the time delay for signals to get to Mars,

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there's a degree of autonomy in all the

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rovers that are roving on Mars. That's not

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the issue at the moment. The issue is how you

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make your clocks on Earth agree, with clocks

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on Mars. And there's two subtleties,

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that come into this. And I should, credit the

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organization that's done the work on this,

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which is the United States National Institute

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of Standards and Technology, or nist.

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they've actually done detailed calculations,

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about exactly how time

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varies on Mars. And so you've got two

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things, Andrew, when you're trying to

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synchronize with clocks on Earth, apart from

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the time, you know, the time

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delay with signals going to Mars,

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the two things that come into being both are,

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to do with Einstein's theories of

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relativity. and we've talked about these

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ad infinitum. We've gone on about them

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a lot for a long time. and you from that

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will know that, when you put a clock into a

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gravitational field, it runs slower. and

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that's the time dilation effect of general

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relativity. So we know that, clocks

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on the surface of the Earth run slightly

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slower than clocks either in space or even in

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the air. We've now got clocks that are so

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accurate you can tell the difference between

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time ticking away on a jet plane at 10 km

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high and time ticking away on the surface of

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the Earth. But Mars, of course, also has

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a gravitational field. It's got a

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gravitational pull, but it's only a sixth or

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thereabouts of what we have here on our

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planet. So that means because the

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gravity is lower, a clock runs

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faster on the surface of Mars.

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if you're on Mars, your clock is ticking away

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at the same rate, but to an outside observer

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it runs, slower. And to an observer on the

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Earth whose clocks are running even slower,

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it seems to be running faster. And the

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calculation has been that from the

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nist, the National Institute of Standards and

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Technology, a clock on Mars would run

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477 microseconds

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faster per day compared with a clock

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on the earth. So 477 millionths of a

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second doesn't actually sound much except

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that when you've got communications,

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like the 5G network you're working to,

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you know, the internal clocks work to better

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than a millionth of a second. and

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so 477 of those millionths of a second is

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yes, throwing messy M messy

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indeed. But it actually gets messier

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because as you know, we've talked

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about this too. the special theory of

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relativity says that if you have a clock

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on a moving object and you observe it from

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not a moving object, then you will

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also get time dilation. That clock will look

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as though it's going slower even though it's

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ticking away at the same rate to the person

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who's on the moving object. To an outside

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observer who's stationary, it looks as though

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it's going slower. And so we've got an

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effect because of the motion of Mars

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relative to the motion of Earth. Now Mars is

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in an orbit around the sun just like we are,

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but it's actually quite an eccentric orbit.

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In other words, it's rather elongated, more

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so than Earth's orbit is. And so that means

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it's always got a motion towards or away from

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the Earth. And that adds another

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uncertainty, which can go

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either way because if it's coming towards us

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then you get a different effect. it's

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226 microseconds,

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the daily offset, in the course

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of a Martian year the

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difference between us and there, and

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I just said something that I want to correct

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there because the thing is always the same

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sign, it doesn't matter of whether it's going

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towards us or away from us. you've still got

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the offset in terms of the

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relativistic time dilation, which is

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not what I said, so I'm correcting that now.

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but yeah, so you've got this additional 226

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microseconds, so 477

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microseconds, with up to

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226 microseconds added to that. It

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means you've got actually quite a messy

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difference in time. It's almost a thousandth

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of a second.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, this relates to a

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time where we've got long term human

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presence on Mars and we need to,

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and the technology doesn't exist yet, but we

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need to be able to communicate with Earth

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in real time. Technically they're going

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to probably develop ways of setting up

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communication systems so that the

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radio signal issue doesn't

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impinge on that communication. Because at the

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moment it's like, what, 24 minutes

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to send in.

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Professor Fred Watson: I think at maximum, it can be. Yeah. And

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you're not going to be able to get away from

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that. But you can build that in because, you

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know, Mars is distance very precisely. Yeah.

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So you can build in a time delay.

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Andrew Dunkley: So this is more about working out

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a time system

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that is in sync with Earth. Does

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that mean we have to invent a new kind of

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clock to use on Mars? So that it's.

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Professor Fred Watson: I think, what it means, it's really about

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the internal consistency of time signals

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on Mars. So,

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you're absolutely right. The synchronization

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with Earth comes into play here.

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But you also want to make sure that

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your communication's actually on Mars, which

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would be vital. are. All right. And that's,

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in a way, okay. Because the

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relativistic effects don't come in there

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because you're all in the same gravity and

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you're all basically moving, on a planet at

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the same speed. It's like, we don't have to

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take these effects into consideration when

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we're talking between ourselves on the

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surface of the Earth. It's only when you're

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talking up to satellites above the Earth,

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which we do through GPS and through

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communications, then you need to take those

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minute differences into account. And

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in a sense, that's what this is all about.

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So, you know, you've got the basic property

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that you can't get away from the speed of

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light, 300,000 kilometers per second. That's,

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the speed at which radio signals go to and

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from Mars. that you can deal with because we

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know the distance. But then on top of that,

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you've got this added tweak in

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terms of synchronizing our clocks with the

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clocks on Mars, which makes for a very

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interesting, you know, a very interesting

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scenario. yeah.

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Andrew Dunkley: Well, here's a dumb question. Why can't we

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just do what we do on Earth across

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the entire solar system and use

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Zulu time? Would that not work?

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Andrew Dunkley: Just Zulu time on Earth basically means it's

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the same time everywhere on the planet.

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Professor Fred Watson: That's an expression I haven't heard before,

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actually.

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Andrew Dunkley: Oh, it's. It's a real thing. Is it Zulu time?

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Yeah, it's used by the military,

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specifically.

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Professor Fred Watson: But, yeah, that might be why, I heard of it.

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Andrew Dunkley: I'll look it up. because right now it's set

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on, Greenwich Mean Time. But, you know, Zulu

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time applies across the entire planet.

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Professor Fred Watson: So that's what we would call Universal

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time.

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Same thing in the world of astronomy.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, yeah. Why can't we do that?

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Professor Fred Watson: well, we do. I mean, you know, we do in

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space, but that's fine. That

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gives you a time base, but

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you've got to tweak it for all these

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relativistic differences.

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Andrew Dunkley: So you've got the time slip problem

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regardless of how you run the clock.

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Professor Fred Watson: It doesn't matter how you run the clock.

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Yeah. So if you're on

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one of the moons of Uranus, then

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you'd probably still work on Universal time

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or Zulu time.

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But when you synchronize that with Earth,

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you've got to take all these things into

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consideration. And that's the bottom line.

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Andrew Dunkley: Okay, I get it. Gosh, it's so complicated

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and yet, you know, Mars is as close to Earth

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as you probably going to find in another

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planet. The daytime

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difference is only 40 minutes. But when

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we actually set up

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long term stays on Mars, that in

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itself is going to be a problem for humans

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because we are tuned to our own environment.

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Having an extra 40 minutes a day is going to

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throw everything into a, into a spear. And

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I think we talked about this some time ago

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and the only way around it would be,

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you have to have a daytime snooze.

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Professor Fred Watson: Well, we kind of know about this already

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because and again we've talked about this

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before that the people who actually operate,

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perseverance and curiosity and all the other

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rovers that are on Mars, the

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ones that, the only other one that's

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operational is the Chinese one.

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the people who operate those actually change

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onto a 24 hours and 40 minute

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schedule. So they're isolated

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in a sense from their

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community and I think they quite quickly

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adapt. I think it's a bit rough for the first

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few days. It's a bit like jet lag. but

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I think they quite quickly adapt to that

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longer day, a Martian day.

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Andrew Dunkley: So if you start work at 9:00 on a Monday, you

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start at 9:40 on Tuesdays.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, that's right. Salami.

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Andrew Dunkley: By, by end of the week you've.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. So, actually it's the other way around,

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isn't it? You'd. Yeah. Would it be. Yeah,

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you'd have to start earlier by the, by

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Monday.

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Andrew Dunkley: Well, it's the same as trying to figure out

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daylight saving, isn't it just, am I going to

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be early or late?

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Oh, imagine trying to do that every day.

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Gosh, no, it's fascinating. And so

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yeah, and the bottom line is that this, this

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team has has more or less figured it all

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out and worked out what we have to do to make

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the time right when we get to Mars.

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Professor Fred Watson: You're right. And you, you were right

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actually. You would start. So to everybody

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else, your day, you'd be starting 40

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minutes late Tuesday. but you're

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still starting at midnight or you know,

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whatever time you, you started. Nine o' clock

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in fact. Nine o' clock

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Martian time. Yeah, yeah.

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Andrew Dunkley: It's just a bit crazy isn't it? But yeah,

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it's a fascinating story. If you'd like to

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read about it, it's on the website scitech

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Daily or you can read the paper that's

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been published in the Astronomical Journal.

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This is Space Nuts with Andrew Dunkley and

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Professor Fred Watson.

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Space Nuts.

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All right, we're going to focus on a target

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of interest. Now I only just figured out what

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that means.

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TOI3884B.

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This is a planet orbiting a star. And

330
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at this point in time they've only found this

331
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one planet. But the weird thing is

332
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its orbit is just so out of kilter

333
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with what we would consider normal. And they

334
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don't know why.

335
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Professor Fred Watson: They don't. So you're absolutely right. We're

336
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talking about an object by the name of TOI

337
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3884B.

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I was just talking to a radio presenter,

339
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in actually in Coffs Harbour in

340
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northern what's it called? The Mid North

341
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Coast? Yeah, New South Wales.

342
00:14:37.880 --> 00:14:40.810
about this very topic, and he wants to

343
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rename it the Hula Hoop. That's a good idea.

344
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Yeah, because as he said, with Hula Hoops the

345
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problem is always keeping the Hula Hoop at

346
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the same angle to your waistline. he said it

347
00:14:52.040 --> 00:14:54.000
tends to wander off and that's exactly what's

348
00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:55.160
happened with this planet.

349
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So Luke Ryan, this is one for you.

350
00:14:58.540 --> 00:15:01.450
it's the Hula Hoop, the Hula Hoop planet. so

351
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what's the story? Well this is a, ah, planet

352
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going around a red dwarf star. it's one of

353
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the 7,000 odd now exoplanets

354
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that we know about. it's at a distance of

355
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something like 130 light years

356
00:15:15.460 --> 00:15:18.100
from Earth. This red

357
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dwarf is pretty you

358
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know, unspectacular

359
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in that it's just a typical red dwarf star.

360
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But it's got spots on it. Now a lot

361
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of stars we know have spots on it. And

362
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actually here in Australia we've got a group

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who I work with quite often up in the

364
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University of Southern Queensland whose

365
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speciality is star spots and understanding

366
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how we can learn about them. And they do,

367
00:15:44.090 --> 00:15:46.330
they. So, you know, I've seen some of the

368
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papers that they've written and sometimes

369
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these star spots, you know, they're almost,

370
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ah, a quarter of the size of the disk of the

371
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star itself. Unlike the sunspots that we see,

372
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which are yes, bigger than Earth, many of

373
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them, but the Earth's 100 times smaller than

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the sun. So, our sunspots are quite

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tiny compared with some of the star spots

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that we know exist on other stars. And this

377
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particular, red dwarf has at least one big

378
00:16:10.350 --> 00:16:13.020
spot, which they're cooler than,

379
00:16:13.370 --> 00:16:14.890
the rest of the atmosphere. They're cool

380
00:16:14.890 --> 00:16:17.300
spots and that's why they look darker. and

381
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it's because of that, even though you can't

382
00:16:20.260 --> 00:16:22.420
see the spot directly, what you can see is

383
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the way the light from that star

384
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changes as the star rotates,

385
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bringing the spot towards us. And then on the

386
00:16:30.700 --> 00:16:33.220
other side of the star, when the spot's

387
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towards us, it's a little bit dimmer. And so

388
00:16:35.409 --> 00:16:38.109
what they've done is, these scientists,

389
00:16:38.330 --> 00:16:40.649
and I should acknowledge, where they are.

390
00:16:40.649 --> 00:16:43.579
I'll come to that in a minute. they

391
00:16:43.579 --> 00:16:46.119
have, figured out, first of all

392
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from that spot rotation,

393
00:16:49.450 --> 00:16:52.450
they figured out that this planet, sorry,

394
00:16:52.450 --> 00:16:55.210
this star itself rotates every 11

395
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days, which is of course,

396
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shorter than the Sun. It's kind of half the

397
00:17:01.892 --> 00:17:04.852
Sun's rotation. But that 11 days is

398
00:17:04.932 --> 00:17:07.832
the key, to understanding how the

399
00:17:07.832 --> 00:17:10.512
star itself rotates. Now enter the planet

400
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into this. The planet itself

401
00:17:13.152 --> 00:17:15.552
goes around in something like four days.

402
00:17:16.052 --> 00:17:18.772
so it sort of whizzes around the parent star.

403
00:17:19.332 --> 00:17:22.132
but what the scientists have done

404
00:17:22.532 --> 00:17:25.512
is used some very, very careful

405
00:17:25.672 --> 00:17:28.552
measurements and a phenomenon which is

406
00:17:28.552 --> 00:17:30.952
called the Rossiter McLachlan effect,

407
00:17:31.872 --> 00:17:34.502
which is to do with the way,

408
00:17:34.782 --> 00:17:37.402
the appearance of a star's spectrum

409
00:17:37.722 --> 00:17:40.682
changes as a planet rotates around

410
00:17:40.922 --> 00:17:43.402
the star or revolves around the star.

411
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And using that effect, they have,

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00:17:47.682 --> 00:17:50.562
basically discovered that this

413
00:17:51.042 --> 00:17:53.842
planet orbits the star at an

414
00:17:53.842 --> 00:17:56.242
angle of 62

415
00:17:56.242 --> 00:17:59.202
degrees to the star's equator.

416
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and contrast that with the solar system,

417
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where the planets all orbit more or less in

418
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the same plane. Mercury is the outlier in

419
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that it's tilted, but,

420
00:18:10.012 --> 00:18:12.972
that plane is more or less the same as

421
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the, as the equator of the sun.

422
00:18:14.972 --> 00:18:17.052
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. If you compare it to Earth,

423
00:18:17.742 --> 00:18:20.382
that planet's 40 degrees off. We're

424
00:18:20.382 --> 00:18:23.142
23.44 and they're 60. Whatever you

425
00:18:23.142 --> 00:18:24.822
said. that's a heck of a tilt.

426
00:18:25.222 --> 00:18:26.822
Professor Fred Watson: No, it's a different tilt you're talking

427
00:18:26.822 --> 00:18:29.222
about there. Oh, that's the tilt of the

428
00:18:29.222 --> 00:18:31.662
Earth's. Oh, that's the axis rotation axis.

429
00:18:31.662 --> 00:18:32.502
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. Right, right.

430
00:18:32.502 --> 00:18:34.912
Professor Fred Watson: But the tilt of the Earth's, orbit to the

431
00:18:34.912 --> 00:18:37.672
sun, to the sun's equator, is effectively

432
00:18:37.672 --> 00:18:38.072
zero.

433
00:18:38.072 --> 00:18:38.682
Andrew Dunkley: Right, Gotcha.

434
00:18:38.682 --> 00:18:40.462
Professor Fred Watson: as. As most of the planets are, with

435
00:18:40.462 --> 00:18:41.022
exception.

436
00:18:41.022 --> 00:18:43.142
Andrew Dunkley: So it's not the tilt. It's the actual orbit

437
00:18:43.142 --> 00:18:43.822
itself is.

438
00:18:43.822 --> 00:18:45.662
Professor Fred Watson: Yep, that's right. It's the orbit itself.

439
00:18:46.462 --> 00:18:48.222
Not. Not the rotation of the planet. That's

440
00:18:48.222 --> 00:18:50.142
right. Good. Good to clarify that.

441
00:18:50.142 --> 00:18:50.502
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.

442
00:18:50.502 --> 00:18:53.442
Professor Fred Watson: Thanks, Andrew. so, yeah, and that's peculiar

443
00:18:53.442 --> 00:18:55.922
because, you know, we. We conventionally

444
00:18:55.922 --> 00:18:58.602
understand that the way planets form is,

445
00:18:58.822 --> 00:19:01.722
in a. In a, what we call a protoplanetary

446
00:19:01.722 --> 00:19:04.472
disk which surrounds the infant

447
00:19:04.472 --> 00:19:07.312
star. And because both

448
00:19:07.312 --> 00:19:09.032
the star and the planets have come from a

449
00:19:09.032 --> 00:19:11.832
collapsing cloud of dust and gas, which is

450
00:19:11.832 --> 00:19:13.912
itself rotating. And it's that sort of

451
00:19:13.912 --> 00:19:16.902
fossilized rotation, that we see in the

452
00:19:16.902 --> 00:19:19.102
rotation of the planets or the revolution of

453
00:19:19.102 --> 00:19:21.662
the planets around the sun and the rotation

454
00:19:21.662 --> 00:19:23.582
of the sun. And they're all in the same

455
00:19:23.662 --> 00:19:26.622
plane. This one's not. So how has

456
00:19:26.622 --> 00:19:29.142
that happened? And the

457
00:19:29.142 --> 00:19:30.062
suggestion is.

458
00:19:30.642 --> 00:19:33.402
Andrew Dunkley: Oh, I know, I know. Theo did

459
00:19:33.402 --> 00:19:33.682
it.

460
00:19:34.482 --> 00:19:37.282
Professor Fred Watson: Well, yeah, that's. It could be a Thea

461
00:19:37.282 --> 00:19:39.242
effect. Something that's. Something that's

462
00:19:39.242 --> 00:19:42.082
actually collided with this object.

463
00:19:42.082 --> 00:19:44.792
But this apparently, as you pointed out right

464
00:19:44.792 --> 00:19:47.112
at the beginning, there isn't another.

465
00:19:47.832 --> 00:19:50.232
There isn't another. There's no other

466
00:19:50.232 --> 00:19:53.042
objects known to be, in orbit around this

467
00:19:53.042 --> 00:19:55.682
star. It seems to be a single planet.

468
00:19:56.082 --> 00:19:57.682
That's not to say that there wasn't something

469
00:19:57.682 --> 00:20:00.342
that collided with it and moved its orbit.

470
00:20:00.982 --> 00:20:02.862
But even, you know, something like Theia

471
00:20:02.862 --> 00:20:04.422
hitting the Earth, which is how we think the

472
00:20:04.422 --> 00:20:06.142
Moon was formed, that didn't push the Earth

473
00:20:06.142 --> 00:20:08.742
out of its orbit until the orbit. It's a very

474
00:20:09.062 --> 00:20:11.782
peculiar effect. I mean, it may be

475
00:20:11.782 --> 00:20:14.342
that this star has had an interaction

476
00:20:14.662 --> 00:20:16.982
gravitationally at some time in the past and

477
00:20:17.862 --> 00:20:20.802
shifted the, orbit of the planet by

478
00:20:20.802 --> 00:20:23.202
the gravitational interference of something

479
00:20:23.202 --> 00:20:25.282
else going past. But that's,

480
00:20:26.192 --> 00:20:28.422
you know, that's just conjecture. and the

481
00:20:28.422 --> 00:20:31.262
bottom line is, for a single planet going

482
00:20:31.262 --> 00:20:33.902
around a star, this is the most peculiar one

483
00:20:33.902 --> 00:20:36.182
we've ever found. It's because of this tilt

484
00:20:36.182 --> 00:20:37.022
in its orbit.

485
00:20:37.262 --> 00:20:40.262
Andrew Dunkley: And that's what we keep seeing every time we

486
00:20:40.262 --> 00:20:42.542
find something new in another solar system,

487
00:20:43.022 --> 00:20:46.022
we Find. Not every time, but

488
00:20:46.022 --> 00:20:48.422
we are, ah, starting to find something new

489
00:20:48.422 --> 00:20:50.542
and different and unexplainable. And,

490
00:20:51.112 --> 00:20:53.312
nothing's normal really when it comes to all

491
00:20:53.312 --> 00:20:54.392
these new discoveries.

492
00:20:55.032 --> 00:20:56.632
Professor Fred Watson: That's correct. That's right.

493
00:21:00.512 --> 00:21:02.672
it's a universe out there that's full of

494
00:21:02.672 --> 00:21:04.872
diversity. That's probably the best way to

495
00:21:04.872 --> 00:21:05.312
put it.

496
00:21:05.552 --> 00:21:08.442
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. and quite a strange

497
00:21:08.442 --> 00:21:11.002
place. Do we know what kind of planet it is?

498
00:21:11.642 --> 00:21:14.372
Professor Fred Watson: yeah, it's a super Earth, I think it's got a

499
00:21:14.372 --> 00:21:16.892
mass of 39 Earths. So it's, something less

500
00:21:16.892 --> 00:21:19.812
than Jupiter. but, but I think it's, not

501
00:21:19.812 --> 00:21:22.372
as big, not as big in diameter as Jupiter is.

502
00:21:22.372 --> 00:21:24.212
I think that's right. But you know, it

503
00:21:24.212 --> 00:21:26.012
probably means it's a hot Jupiter, basically,

504
00:21:26.012 --> 00:21:27.492
or a hot sub Jupiter perhaps.

505
00:21:27.492 --> 00:21:28.732
That's the best way to put it.

506
00:21:28.732 --> 00:21:31.161
Andrew Dunkley: Right. Okay. Well, it's another

507
00:21:31.161 --> 00:21:33.962
interesting find. I'm sure

508
00:21:33.962 --> 00:21:36.002
they'll keep looking at it to try and figure

509
00:21:36.002 --> 00:21:38.772
out how it ended up where it is and why. but

510
00:21:38.772 --> 00:21:41.302
yeah, it sounds. Now, logic, logic, if you

511
00:21:41.302 --> 00:21:43.542
tear it all down, you go with the most

512
00:21:43.542 --> 00:21:46.342
obvious answer. It's probably been hit

513
00:21:46.342 --> 00:21:49.142
by something. Probably Steve Smith's cricket

514
00:21:49.142 --> 00:21:50.622
bat would be my theory.

515
00:21:52.462 --> 00:21:54.692
Professor Fred Watson: I think you've probably just baffled, two

516
00:21:54.692 --> 00:21:55.652
thirds of our listeners.

517
00:21:55.731 --> 00:21:58.532
Andrew Dunkley: Probably look up Steve Smith, cricketer,

518
00:21:58.532 --> 00:21:59.892
and you'll know what I'm talking about.

519
00:22:01.372 --> 00:22:03.692
been having a great season, Absolutely

520
00:22:04.172 --> 00:22:06.992
wonderful season. But I won't gloat because I

521
00:22:06.992 --> 00:22:09.272
know we're heard in England and I, I don't

522
00:22:09.272 --> 00:22:10.752
want to, you know, it's not over yet.

523
00:22:12.122 --> 00:22:13.782
so if you would like to read up on that

524
00:22:13.782 --> 00:22:16.192
story, you can do so@the

525
00:22:16.432 --> 00:22:18.752
dailygalaxy.com website. Or you can read the

526
00:22:18.752 --> 00:22:20.752
paper in the

527
00:22:20.991 --> 00:22:23.192
Astronomical Journal. I think it is. Let me

528
00:22:23.192 --> 00:22:25.632
just double check that. Yes, the Astronomical

529
00:22:25.632 --> 00:22:28.312
Journal. This is Space Nuts with Andrew

530
00:22:28.312 --> 00:22:30.592
Dunkley and Professor Fred Watson.

531
00:22:33.462 --> 00:22:35.462
Roger, you're live right here. Also Space

532
00:22:35.542 --> 00:22:36.182
Nuts.

533
00:22:36.262 --> 00:22:39.142
Our last story is about

534
00:22:39.222 --> 00:22:41.262
one of my favorite things, and that is

535
00:22:41.262 --> 00:22:43.332
chewing gum. I grew up on that stuff. I

536
00:22:43.332 --> 00:22:45.092
didn't eat food. I just chewed gum

537
00:22:46.052 --> 00:22:48.692
ad infinitum. I, I used to

538
00:22:49.172 --> 00:22:51.372
stick it on the bedpost when I went to sleep

539
00:22:51.372 --> 00:22:54.052
and start again as soon as I woke up. I just

540
00:22:54.212 --> 00:22:56.892
was addicted to this stuff. Especially the

541
00:22:56.892 --> 00:22:58.772
stuff we had called Big Charlie. I don't know

542
00:22:58.772 --> 00:23:00.652
if anyone remembers Big Charlie, but it came

543
00:23:00.652 --> 00:23:02.812
in a stick about one foot long

544
00:23:04.092 --> 00:23:06.412
and good. Yeah, it was amazing.

545
00:23:06.572 --> 00:23:09.452
Anyway, I can't find that anymore. the

546
00:23:09.452 --> 00:23:11.732
point I'm trying to make is that this is all

547
00:23:11.732 --> 00:23:14.332
about a discovery that's been made on the

548
00:23:14.332 --> 00:23:16.772
samples of the Bennu

549
00:23:16.772 --> 00:23:19.532
asteroid that were returned to Earth in the

550
00:23:19.532 --> 00:23:21.572
deserts of Utah a couple of years ago. And

551
00:23:21.572 --> 00:23:23.692
they've been sort of looking at it ever since

552
00:23:23.692 --> 00:23:26.052
and they have found something

553
00:23:26.892 --> 00:23:29.532
unusual. It's not chewing gum, but it is like

554
00:23:29.532 --> 00:23:32.482
chewing gum because, it's

555
00:23:32.482 --> 00:23:32.602
a.

556
00:23:32.602 --> 00:23:33.602
Professor Fred Watson: Kind of a polymer.

557
00:23:35.522 --> 00:23:37.682
Yeah. I'm still grappling with you and

558
00:23:38.502 --> 00:23:41.382
your chewing gum on the BET post m.

559
00:23:41.462 --> 00:23:44.022
If I remember rightly, it was Lonnie Donegan

560
00:23:44.662 --> 00:23:47.542
who in the 1950s had a big hit

561
00:23:47.542 --> 00:23:49.902
with does your chewing gum lose its flavor in

562
00:23:49.902 --> 00:23:51.142
the bedpost overnight?

563
00:23:51.222 --> 00:23:52.162
Andrew Dunkley: The answer is yes.

564
00:23:54.392 --> 00:23:57.232
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, so straight from there

565
00:23:57.232 --> 00:23:58.472
to Asteroid Bennu.

566
00:24:00.662 --> 00:24:02.442
I think it was Lonnie Donegan anyway.

567
00:24:02.442 --> 00:24:03.962
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, I can't remember, but I know.

568
00:24:03.962 --> 00:24:06.082
Professor Fred Watson: The race skiffle artist of the

569
00:24:06.082 --> 00:24:07.002
1950s.

570
00:24:08.642 --> 00:24:11.602
Andrew Dunkley: there's a photo of Big Charlie. I don't know

571
00:24:11.602 --> 00:24:12.882
if you can see that now. You can't.

572
00:24:12.882 --> 00:24:14.762
Professor Fred Watson: I can't. No. It's just disappearing because

573
00:24:14.762 --> 00:24:16.322
you. All I can see now is the moon.

574
00:24:16.402 --> 00:24:18.622
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. Anyway.

575
00:24:18.622 --> 00:24:20.662
Professor Fred Watson: A Big Charlie. We did Charlie.

576
00:24:21.822 --> 00:24:23.622
Ah, lucky one.

577
00:24:23.942 --> 00:24:26.542
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, it was a monster packet. Like, you

578
00:24:26.542 --> 00:24:29.302
know, you couldn't put it in your pocket.

579
00:24:29.702 --> 00:24:30.982
You'd poke a m out.

580
00:24:34.822 --> 00:24:37.162
Professor Fred Watson: Well, I have to say, it's something

581
00:24:38.042 --> 00:24:40.602
not at all like that that we're talking about

582
00:24:40.682 --> 00:24:43.322
with asteroid Bennu because all these

583
00:24:43.322 --> 00:24:45.152
observations have made. Been made with an

584
00:24:45.152 --> 00:24:47.392
electron microscope, which you probably

585
00:24:47.392 --> 00:24:49.792
didn't need for a Big Charlie. but

586
00:24:50.272 --> 00:24:53.202
what's it all about? It's what's

587
00:24:53.202 --> 00:24:55.682
been found in the dust,

588
00:24:56.542 --> 00:24:59.222
which was returned by the Osiris Rex

589
00:24:59.222 --> 00:25:01.502
spacecraft, I think in

590
00:25:01.502 --> 00:25:04.342
2023, if I remember rightly. Samples from

591
00:25:04.342 --> 00:25:06.302
asteroid Bennu. It's a NASA project.

592
00:25:07.062 --> 00:25:09.532
what has been found in there is what the

593
00:25:09.532 --> 00:25:11.662
scientists call nitrogen rich

594
00:25:11.742 --> 00:25:13.022
polymeric sheets,

595
00:25:14.392 --> 00:25:17.392
which you and I would call gum. It's a

596
00:25:17.392 --> 00:25:19.402
polymer basically. and

597
00:25:19.882 --> 00:25:22.172
polymers, ah, are materials where you've got

598
00:25:22.172 --> 00:25:24.212
these long chains of molecules that

599
00:25:24.931 --> 00:25:27.412
give them that sort of flexible and sticky,

600
00:25:27.732 --> 00:25:30.342
sticky flavor. or not flavor, but,

601
00:25:30.332 --> 00:25:33.332
demeanor, let me put it that way. so

602
00:25:33.332 --> 00:25:35.912
it's. Yeah, it's got it's got

603
00:25:36.292 --> 00:25:39.172
these long chain molecules on it. And so the

604
00:25:39.252 --> 00:25:42.202
scientists are calling it space gum. it's

605
00:25:42.202 --> 00:25:44.642
not gum as we would know it. But what they've

606
00:25:44.642 --> 00:25:47.422
done is, they've found, sort of

607
00:25:47.422 --> 00:25:50.222
almost like shards of this stuff within the

608
00:25:50.222 --> 00:25:52.382
dust samples from

609
00:25:52.702 --> 00:25:55.382
Bennu. And in order to analyze it,

610
00:25:55.382 --> 00:25:57.982
they've actually had to coat it with a

611
00:25:58.062 --> 00:26:00.992
layer of I think it's

612
00:26:00.992 --> 00:26:03.832
platinum. Yeah. That

613
00:26:03.832 --> 00:26:06.472
they've. They've reinforced it with so that

614
00:26:06.472 --> 00:26:09.042
they can take samples from it, with a

615
00:26:09.122 --> 00:26:11.782
tungsten micro needle. and you see

616
00:26:11.782 --> 00:26:13.582
pictures of all this stuff going on on the

617
00:26:13.582 --> 00:26:15.622
Web. The Universe Today's got a nice story

618
00:26:15.622 --> 00:26:17.802
about it. and,

619
00:26:18.272 --> 00:26:21.192
then with the microneedle, then you can

620
00:26:21.192 --> 00:26:23.192
take the samples and, you know, analyze them.

621
00:26:23.192 --> 00:26:25.392
With all the various pieces of kit that

622
00:26:25.872 --> 00:26:28.272
we use to make these analyses.

623
00:26:29.182 --> 00:26:31.552
And it turns out, yep, there's, There's gum

624
00:26:31.552 --> 00:26:34.282
there. I think the puzzle is

625
00:26:34.442 --> 00:26:36.472
how it got there. because.

626
00:26:37.592 --> 00:26:40.322
Well, let me just, since we're mentioning

627
00:26:40.322 --> 00:26:43.042
Universe Today and the lovely article,

628
00:26:43.352 --> 00:26:46.152
by Andy Thomas Twick, I think is his name,

629
00:26:46.152 --> 00:26:48.412
might not be how you pronounce it. But,

630
00:26:48.782 --> 00:26:51.252
what, he says is. One question remains.

631
00:26:51.492 --> 00:26:53.692
One question remains. How exactly did the

632
00:26:53.692 --> 00:26:56.592
space Gump survive on Bennu for so long? We

633
00:26:56.592 --> 00:26:58.752
know that Bennu was part of a larger asteroid

634
00:26:58.752 --> 00:27:00.392
that had hydrothermal vents.

635
00:27:01.432 --> 00:27:03.872
Meaning the asteroid itself was subjected to

636
00:27:03.872 --> 00:27:06.672
water. Complex organic molecules like the

637
00:27:06.672 --> 00:27:09.392
space gum. Usually either dissolve or

638
00:27:09.392 --> 00:27:11.672
break up when subjected to hot water.

639
00:27:12.232 --> 00:27:14.232
So how had this particular sample,

640
00:27:14.732 --> 00:27:17.662
avoided that fate? And what

641
00:27:17.742 --> 00:27:20.462
they're saying then is that perhaps the

642
00:27:20.702 --> 00:27:22.942
sample might have formed, basically

643
00:27:23.502 --> 00:27:26.222
during a phase when Bennu was

644
00:27:26.302 --> 00:27:29.022
cold. Before it actually got hot enough for

645
00:27:29.262 --> 00:27:31.182
nuclear processes to heat it up.

646
00:27:32.002 --> 00:27:34.162
and they're saying that these samples

647
00:27:34.162 --> 00:27:36.812
actually date from that time. and that

648
00:27:36.971 --> 00:27:39.712
basically, what they say

649
00:27:39.712 --> 00:27:42.512
is, By the time radioactive elements inside

650
00:27:42.512 --> 00:27:45.232
the asteroid. And this again is quoted from

651
00:27:45.232 --> 00:27:47.512
Universe, today, by the time the radioactive

652
00:27:47.512 --> 00:27:49.392
elements inside the asteroid had heated up

653
00:27:49.392 --> 00:27:51.862
enough to create the water, the plastic in

654
00:27:51.862 --> 00:27:54.302
inverted commas, sheets of polymer were

655
00:27:54.302 --> 00:27:56.702
already formed and were, in fact, water

656
00:27:56.702 --> 00:27:58.782
resistant, thereby getting trapped by the

657
00:27:58.782 --> 00:28:01.022
rocks on the asteroid surface. Where they

658
00:28:01.022 --> 00:28:03.502
were eventually picked up by an intrepid

659
00:28:03.502 --> 00:28:05.762
space probe, namely Osiris,

660
00:28:06.212 --> 00:28:08.932
Rex. So, yeah, and here's the really

661
00:28:08.932 --> 00:28:11.252
interesting bit. we've got other

662
00:28:11.332 --> 00:28:14.142
asteroid samples, as you know, Andrew,

663
00:28:14.142 --> 00:28:17.092
from, the two Japanese spacecraft that have

664
00:28:17.092 --> 00:28:19.572
brought back asteroid samples. and

665
00:28:19.732 --> 00:28:22.292
neither of those have polymers in them.

666
00:28:22.872 --> 00:28:24.902
so, Bennu is different. It's a different,

667
00:28:25.582 --> 00:28:28.072
body. It's still a rubble pile asteroid, as

668
00:28:28.072 --> 00:28:30.712
far as we know, but different in its chemical

669
00:28:30.712 --> 00:28:31.232
makeup.

670
00:28:31.232 --> 00:28:33.632
Andrew Dunkley: So I suppose that throws up questions about,

671
00:28:33.952 --> 00:28:36.922
asteroid formation and why this

672
00:28:36.922 --> 00:28:39.122
is different. Or is it. Is it normal and the

673
00:28:39.122 --> 00:28:41.002
other two were different? You don't know, do

674
00:28:41.002 --> 00:28:41.162
you?

675
00:28:41.162 --> 00:28:42.962
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, that's right. That's the thing. Yes.

676
00:28:43.402 --> 00:28:43.722
Yeah.

677
00:28:43.722 --> 00:28:45.572
Andrew Dunkley: Very interesting indeed. If, you'd like to

678
00:28:45.572 --> 00:28:48.412
read about it. Universetoday.com has

679
00:28:48.412 --> 00:28:50.922
that great article that, Fred was talking

680
00:28:50.922 --> 00:28:53.532
about. And, yeah, we'll probably learn more

681
00:28:53.532 --> 00:28:55.252
and more as they keep going through those

682
00:28:55.252 --> 00:28:56.692
samples from Bennu.

683
00:28:58.172 --> 00:29:00.482
Fred, we're, we're all done. Thank you so

684
00:29:00.482 --> 00:29:01.242
much. That was quick.

685
00:29:01.962 --> 00:29:04.962
Professor Fred Watson: It was, wasn't it? M. And they were. They

686
00:29:04.962 --> 00:29:07.642
were quite complex stories as well. Yeah.

687
00:29:07.642 --> 00:29:09.282
Andrew Dunkley: Probably why we didn't spend much time on

688
00:29:09.282 --> 00:29:11.082
them. Brains.

689
00:29:11.082 --> 00:29:12.762
Professor Fred Watson: Neither of us understands them either.

690
00:29:14.572 --> 00:29:14.972
Yeah.

691
00:29:15.052 --> 00:29:16.642
Andrew Dunkley: All right, thanks, Fred. We'll, catch you

692
00:29:16.642 --> 00:29:19.482
shortly, for our final

693
00:29:19.482 --> 00:29:22.442
program of the year officially. So we'll see

694
00:29:22.442 --> 00:29:23.442
you then. Thanks, Fred.

695
00:29:23.762 --> 00:29:24.442
Professor Fred Watson: Sounds great.

696
00:29:24.442 --> 00:29:25.522
Well done, Andrew.

697
00:29:25.762 --> 00:29:28.162
Andrew Dunkley: And, thanks to Huw in the studio who couldn't

698
00:29:28.162 --> 00:29:30.372
be with us today because of a weird, object

699
00:29:30.612 --> 00:29:33.072
that, he's gone to see the Doctor about. and

700
00:29:33.072 --> 00:29:35.802
don't forget to visit us online. And, you can

701
00:29:35.802 --> 00:29:38.722
do that@spacenutspodcast.com or

702
00:29:38.722 --> 00:29:41.562
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703
00:29:41.742 --> 00:29:44.052
check it all out there. You can, go to our

704
00:29:44.052 --> 00:29:46.172
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705
00:29:46.172 --> 00:29:48.292
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706
00:29:48.292 --> 00:29:50.012
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707
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708
00:29:52.812 --> 00:29:55.702
the AMA link. Sign up for the Astronomy Daily

709
00:29:55.702 --> 00:29:57.782
Newsfeed. But Christmas is coming up. Don't

710
00:29:57.782 --> 00:30:00.592
forget to visit the Space Nuts shop. it's all

711
00:30:00.592 --> 00:30:03.512
atspace nuts podcast.com and for me,

712
00:30:03.512 --> 00:30:05.832
Andrew Dunkley. Thanks for your company. We

713
00:30:05.832 --> 00:30:08.032
will see you again on the next episode. Real

714
00:30:08.032 --> 00:30:08.352
soon,

715
00:30:08.302 --> 00:30:09.782
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