Mars Life Mysteries, Black Hole Stars & Quasi Moons Unveiled

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Andrew Dunkley: Hi there. Thanks for joining us. Once again, this is Space

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Nuts, where we talk astronomy and space

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science, uh, of all kinds, not just

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the ordinary kind. Uh, my name is Andrew Dunkley,

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I'm your host and it's great to have your company again.

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Coming up in this episode, have we found

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evidence that, uh, life once existed on Mars?

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If you read the popular press, definitely it's

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life. It's there. But, uh, it could be

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something else. Uh, scientists may have

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discovered a new class of black hole

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stars. What's that all about? I think it's something we've already

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talked about. And we said it was something else. Well, now

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it's something else again. And

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another quasi moon attaches itself to

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Earth just like a house fly. That's all coming

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up in this episode of space nuts.

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15 seconds.

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Voice Over Guy: Guidance is internal. 10,

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9. Ignition sequence start.

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Space nuts. 5, 4, 3,

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2. 5, 4, 3, two, one.

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Space nuts. Astronauts report it feels

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good.

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Andrew Dunkley: And giggling in the background there like a. Ah, toddler

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who's found a kitten is Professor Fred Watson Watter, an

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astronomer at large. Hello, Fred Watson.

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Professor Fred Watson: Hi, Andrew. It's funny you should mention that we did find a couple of

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kittens not very long ago.

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Andrew Dunkley: Oh, yeah, they're everywhere. I think,

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I think cats are starting to out, um, outgrow

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the, the growth rate of another pest

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species in this country, which is the kangaroo.

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Um, but yeah, feral cats, wow. They're

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one of the biggest problems in the world.

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Professor Fred Watson: They certainly are, especially in areas like yours.

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We keep ours under a short leash just to make sure they

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don't go feral and give them a talking to every

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day. Um, anyway,

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yeah, yes.

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Andrew Dunkley: I've noticed on Instagram people post a lot of cat

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videos and one of the common threads at the moment

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is cats sneaking into the house with a

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mouse and dropping it in the pot of food. And I'm thinking,

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hang on a minute, there are too many of

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these for it all to be happening

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regularly. I think they're AI, they're AI. And

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it's starting to annoy me that there's so much of this

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garbage that's being.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, I heard this morning

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about, um, AI, uh, all about animals doing

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funny things. Somebody was talking about

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rabbits bouncing on a trampoline.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, I've seen that one.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, Grandma was very impressed and uh,

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granddaughter said, grandma, it's AI.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, it's fake. Yeah. And, and look,

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they're very clever and they're very good, but I don't want to see it if

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it's not real. It's not real.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, that's Right.

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Andrew Dunkley: It doesn't matter how clever the. The

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artificial intelligence is,

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it's not real and it just annoys me.

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Anyway, that's just me.

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Professor Fred Watson: Um, so if you're a creator of,

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uh, AI Rubbish watching this show, don't, uh,

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worry. Andrew doesn't mean it, really.

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Andrew Dunkley: Well, I mean it to a certain degree. I mean, yes,

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other people enjoy it, that's fine. It's just not for me. But,

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yeah, now

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we've got a fair bit.

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Oh, by the way, was great to see you and

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Huw and Marnie the other day, um, while we were down in

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Sydney with, um, my wife's sister in hospital.

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So we spent a few days down there, uh, but it was good to

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be able to catch up and see you for the first time in, I reckon, nearly

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a decade. It probably is, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I

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see you once a week, but, yeah, face to face,

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uh, in your lovely home, uh, which has that

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horrible view.

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Professor Fred Watson: We think it's all right.

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Andrew Dunkley: And, and um, managing to drag Huw in

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the. Out of the studio for, um. Yeah, for

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lunch.

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Professor Fred Watson: That was terrific.

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Andrew Dunkley: So thank you to you and Marnie for putting on a

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lovely spread. We had a great time. Pity we couldn't stay

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much longer, uh, than a couple of hours. But duty, uh,

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called.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yes.

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Andrew Dunkley: Of the hospital. So. Yeah, no, terrific, thank

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you.

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Uh, now, uh, question one. Well, not question one.

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Um, topic one. Have we

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found evidence that life once existed on

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Mars? Now, this story's got a lot of traction. It's popping

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up everywhere. It's sort of been in the news

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for a week or two now, but

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it's obviously, uh, one of those

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science stories that grabs the

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imagination. Have we found evidence of life on

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Mars? Now, the popular press is saying now

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that we have found evidence of life on Mars,

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et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Well, hang on a minute.

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They're jumping the gun. But it's called clickbait, I

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think. What, uh, is the story?

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Professor Fred Watson: Life, Jim, but not as we know it. I think,

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um, it's actually, uh, a

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geological formation, Andrew. It's

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uh, basically a rock which

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has been analysed by the Perseverance

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Rover. Uh, uh, like all rocks

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that are analysed by, um, not

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just Perseverance, but other rovers on Mars. It's got a name. It's

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called Chavaja Falls. I hope I'm pronouncing

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that correctly. Um,

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it's, um, a rock that has

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a few, uh, characteristics. Uh, and

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the particular one that's got people excited is what they're calling

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leopard spots, um, which, uh,

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they, uh, say the best explanation

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for these leopard spots is

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biological processes. And this

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comes from actually

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a geoscientist and planetary scientist

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at, uh, Stony Brook university in the U.S.

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now, the critical thing here, uh,

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is that, uh, this is still

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on Mars.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.

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Professor Fred Watson: And the Perseverance has

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collected a sample of that rock. Uh,

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and you and I have spoken before about the

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way these samples are collected and put in little cylinders, uh,

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uh, metal cylinders for later retrieval.

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The date for retrieval basically

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goes backwards at I think, one year per year.

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Uh, we don't know when that's going to happen because

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the retrieval mission

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is, uh, not in good shape at the moment. I think

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that's probably still a fair comment. Uh, we might hear more

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soon. Anyway, the best analysis

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that you can do now is with perseverance itself.

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Now, Perseverance is not, um, uh,

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uh, devoid of lots of

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instrumentation, uh, that are designed to look

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for exactly this kind of thing. Um, and

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so that's why the excitement has come about because,

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uh, there are a number of features about this rock

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that, uh, tell you that just

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maybe, just maybe, uh, these

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leopard spots came from biological

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processes. So, um,

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let me see if I can get the story right.

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Uh, it's, uh, basically,

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uh, a rock that is.

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Has what you might call veins in it. It's got

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other material in it. And the other material

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is what suggests that this rock was

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formed in running water. Can't remember what it is, actually. Um,

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it's, uh. It's, you know, basically a mineral

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formation. Um, but,

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uh, so that tells you that there was. There was water

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present. We, we know that because that's why

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Perseverance went to Jezero Crater, because that was once

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a lake and it had a, a river delta flowing into

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it or a river flowing into it that made a river

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delta. And that's the area in which this rock was

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collected. But, um,

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the, the.

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The bottom line is that these, these leopard spots.

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And I'm sorry, I'm groping a little bit here because I'm not a

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mineralogist and I'm not actually a chemist. Uh,

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they are rich in iron phosphate and

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iron sulphide, uh,

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probably in minerals which I hadn't actually heard

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of. Vivianite and grigite.

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Uh, but these phosphates

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have great significance, uh,

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in terms of their, you know, the biological

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importance. And so what

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is being suggested is that

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there could be the product.

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And I'm actually quoting here from,

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uh, the Science Alert piece written by Michelle

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Starr, a great name for somebody who writes about this

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kind of thing. Um, it's,

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uh, Essentially

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they're thought to be the product of what

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are called electrochemical reduction and oxidation.

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And they're usually known as redox reactions

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involving organic carbon, either

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biological or non biological.

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But then there's a quote from uh, an astrobiologist at

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Texas A and M University which is

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it's not just the minerals, it's

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how they are, uh, arranged in these structures that

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suggests that they formed through the redox

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cycling of iron and sulphur. On Earth, things like

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this sometimes form in sediments where microbes

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are eating organic matter and breathing rust and

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sulphate. Their presence on Mars raises the question,

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could similar processes have occurred

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there? That's from Michael Tice of Texas A and M

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University. Uh, but then I think this

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is the critical part and um, I'm once again

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quoting Michelle Starr here from our article.

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This is where it gets really interesting. The team

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modelled different processes that can produce the

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observed mineral composition of the samples.

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While they were able to identify an

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abiotic process that reduces sulphate to

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sulphide to produce a result similar to what is

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observed in the rocks, that process is

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extremely slow and requires a either

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high acidity or temperatures in

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excess of 150 to 200 degrees

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Celsius. Mars is certainly capable of

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producing acidic conditions and high temperature through

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volcanism. However, the rocks show no other

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signs of being subjected to that level of heat

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nor ever being exposed to a low ph, in other

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words acidity. And so what they're saying

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is that because um, of

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the absence of uh, other indicators,

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what you're left with is not the possibility of

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acidity or volcanism. You're left with biological

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processes. So it's a long

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deductive process. Uh, and

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uh, it's a paper that's appeared in Nature,

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that's the leading journal for this kind of thing.

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So uh, I think it might be something we take seriously.

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Um, but the problem is, um, you know,

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as uh, Michelle Starr goes on to say, it's going to be difficult

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to learn more without studying the rocks themselves.

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Perseverance's suite of instruments is extremely limited

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compared to what geologists can accomplish here on Earth.

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And the researchers are itching to get their hands on the collected

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samples. I bet they are too.

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Andrew Dunkley: And that could be a long, long, long

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way off. So we're sitting in here on potential

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evidence of past life on Mars

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or not, and we can't look at it

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except for the photos that come from.

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Professor Fred Watson: The analysis by Perseverance is,

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uh, instruments. I mean in some ways um,

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a discovery like this might spur the

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um, And I'm sure they don't need it because there's lots going on

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behind the scenes. But it might spur NASA and

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perhaps ESA to um, get their act together

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in terms of this sample return mission. You probably remember

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it was all planned and it was all going through the processes, but

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was going to cost $11 billion.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.

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Professor Fred Watson: Uh, and that this is in the previous

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administration, it's not the Trump administration. The

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previous one that was felt to be, you know,

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one step too far. Um, and um, it

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needed to be made cheaper and that's

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I think still where the um, where the situation

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lies.

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Andrew Dunkley: There is talk that Elon will do it.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's right. Elon I think offered to do it

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for um, $3.50 or something like that.

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Um, uh, it is possible that

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Elon could mount a mission to do that. Uh,

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and I'm sure SpaceX is scratching their head

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and planning away for exactly that.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, I hope he does.

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Yes, um, watch this

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space. But it's potential excitement

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in terms of finding another world that

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had life on it. We often speculate

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about these things. Uh, and

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it's as you and I have said, it's only a matter of time before

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we find some form of

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microbial life, either current

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or historic, in the solar system.

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Um, this might be it, it might not. Um,

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but we can't do anything until we get the samples.

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And that's the frustrating part.

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Professor Fred Watson: It is interesting. One of the things we talked about,

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um. Yeah, when,

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when, when you were um, on uh, you know, touring the

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world with Heidi was um,

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some work that was done.

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Andrew Dunkley: It was actually with, with Judy but. Yeah, that I understand.

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Professor Fred Watson: I talked with Heidi. You went with Judy.

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I wasn't suggesting that Judy was here and Heidi was

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there.

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Andrew Dunkley: I know.

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Professor Fred Watson: When you were touring the world, uh, I spoke with

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Heidi about um,

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uh, something that was recog recognised in

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the UK that um, there is a,

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I can't remember the exact details but it was a combination

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of mass spectrometers and some sort of spec,

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some other sort of spectrometer that you can bring to

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bear on uh, samples

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to detect whether there are living uh,

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organisms there. Um, it detects

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uh, the um, nuclear, sorry,

302
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molecular bonds within lipids,

303
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uh, which are, you know, the things that make cell walls and

304
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things of that sort. Um, and that's already on Mars.

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Uh, in fact pretty well all the

306
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landers that have ever gone to Mars have carried this, this kind

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of equipment. Um, but there you're

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looking for living organisms and here we're talking about

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something that's probably very Long dead, perhaps

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long dead for 3 billion years or something like that. So it's

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not as easy as that.

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Andrew Dunkley: No, indeed. But um,

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we'll just keep our fingers crossed and hope that

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sometime in the not too distant future they'll get

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these samples back and we'll be able to find out.

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Absolutely. Uh, and if you'd like to chase

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up that story, it's on the Science Alert website or you

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can read the paper that has been published in

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Nature and Jordy wants to read it

320
00:14:56.270 --> 00:14:58.350
right now. But he's going to have to be patient.

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He was the first person that greeted us at your place the other day.

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Professor Fred Watson: As he always does.

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Andrew Dunkley: And I say person because a lot of people consider their dogs to be

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people and that's fine. This is Space

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Nuts Andrew Dunkley here with Professor Fred Watson Watson.

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Um.

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Professor Fred Watson: Okay, we checked all four systems and being with a girl,

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Space Nuts.

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Andrew Dunkley: Now to another discovery. Uh, or

330
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maybe it's a discovery, uh, and it sort of

331
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carries on from something we spoke about last week

332
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when we asked the question, have

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we, hey Jordy, have we

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discovered a primordial black hole?

335
00:15:37.530 --> 00:15:40.350
Um, now they're saying no because we

336
00:15:40.350 --> 00:15:43.270
may have discovered a new class of black hole stars.

337
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They're ah, the same stories one end or the other or they're different

338
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completely.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yes, it's really interesting because

340
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it's the evidence that's the same story.

341
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Andrew Dunkley: Yes.

342
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Professor Fred Watson: And I think on Space Nuts we've now covered this

343
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three times and it's changing.

344
00:16:01.500 --> 00:16:04.380
Yeah, and it keeps changing. The little red dots

345
00:16:04.380 --> 00:16:07.100
that um, are being detected by

346
00:16:07.550 --> 00:16:10.500
uh, the James Webb telescope at very, very

347
00:16:10.500 --> 00:16:13.330
great distances, very high redshifts as we put it. Uh,

348
00:16:13.330 --> 00:16:15.900
in other words, these are things that we see

349
00:16:16.140 --> 00:16:18.380
when the universe was in its infancy.

350
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And so um, the little red

351
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dots, uh, have been thought to be

352
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galaxies and have been thought to be um,

353
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evidence of primordial black holes.

354
00:16:30.200 --> 00:16:32.920
But um, some recent work has uh,

355
00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:35.560
once again looked at the little red dots.

356
00:16:35.990 --> 00:16:37.320
Uh, this is

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um, basically a group, um, headed by

358
00:16:42.050 --> 00:16:44.960
uh, scientists at Pennsylvania State

359
00:16:44.960 --> 00:16:47.460
University in the us. Um,

360
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we thought there were galaxies, um, and they're

361
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red partly because they're highly redshifted. That's

362
00:16:54.560 --> 00:16:57.440
to say the light from them has been

363
00:16:57.440 --> 00:17:00.400
stretched by the expansion of the universe because it's been travelling

364
00:17:00.400 --> 00:17:03.260
for 13.5 years or something of

365
00:17:03.260 --> 00:17:06.100
that sort. Um, but um,

366
00:17:06.980 --> 00:17:09.700
the latest is in,

367
00:17:09.700 --> 00:17:11.780
in some ways even more intriguing

368
00:17:12.900 --> 00:17:15.280
and it's because uh,

369
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they actually uh, the, the, the,

370
00:17:18.540 --> 00:17:21.060
the new research uh, suggests

371
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that you are looking

372
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not at galaxies but basically

373
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at uh, gigantic stars.

374
00:17:30.610 --> 00:17:33.470
Um, so Single stars, which

375
00:17:33.470 --> 00:17:36.230
are huge, uh, and

376
00:17:36.950 --> 00:17:39.870
possibly at their centre, have a

377
00:17:39.870 --> 00:17:42.750
black hole. So what you've got here is a

378
00:17:42.750 --> 00:17:45.710
process that, you know, it's, it's independent of

379
00:17:45.710 --> 00:17:48.590
galaxy formation. We, we now think that the black

380
00:17:48.590 --> 00:17:51.590
holes build up their mass, uh, very

381
00:17:51.590 --> 00:17:54.510
early in the, in the universe and that acts as a mass

382
00:17:54.510 --> 00:17:57.390
concentrator and gas falls into it. The gas form

383
00:17:57.390 --> 00:18:00.120
stars and you get galaxies around the, around the black

384
00:18:00.120 --> 00:18:02.560
holes, which very quickly become super massive.

385
00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:05.360
Yeah, but, um, the idea

386
00:18:05.360 --> 00:18:08.160
here is that the gas has simply

387
00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:10.880
concentrated around the black hole and

388
00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:13.920
got hot. Um, uh, so it's not

389
00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:17.360
basically nuclear

390
00:18:17.360 --> 00:18:20.160
fusion that's making them shine,

391
00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:23.440
which is what happens in stars, but

392
00:18:23.840 --> 00:18:25.840
the black hole in the centre,

393
00:18:26.630 --> 00:18:28.360
that's essentially, uh,

394
00:18:29.910 --> 00:18:31.990
accreting the matter, it's pulling in the matter.

395
00:18:32.670 --> 00:18:35.190
Uh, and the energy from that

396
00:18:35.430 --> 00:18:38.150
process is what makes them luminous.

397
00:18:38.150 --> 00:18:41.110
It's a bit like, you know, we know that accretion discs

398
00:18:41.110 --> 00:18:43.630
around a black hole, for example, in the centre of our own

399
00:18:43.630 --> 00:18:46.470
galaxy, that disc of material swirling around the

400
00:18:46.470 --> 00:18:48.790
black hole gets very hot

401
00:18:49.430 --> 00:18:51.830
and it releases both X rays and

402
00:18:51.910 --> 00:18:54.530
radio waves, which we see

403
00:18:54.690 --> 00:18:57.530
as the object Sagittarius, a star in the radio

404
00:18:57.530 --> 00:19:00.530
spectrum. So it's that kind of process. It's the process

405
00:19:00.610 --> 00:19:03.530
of black, uh, holes, uh, pulling things

406
00:19:03.530 --> 00:19:06.210
in, making them compress very high and

407
00:19:06.210 --> 00:19:08.970
getting very excited. Uh, that.

408
00:19:08.970 --> 00:19:11.890
That actually gives the energy of

409
00:19:12.130 --> 00:19:14.970
the star itself. And by star I'm putting

410
00:19:14.970 --> 00:19:17.850
in inverted commas because it's so, so

411
00:19:17.850 --> 00:19:20.770
big, um, and it's cold. It's not,

412
00:19:20.970 --> 00:19:23.410
um, heated by nuclear fusion.

413
00:19:23.750 --> 00:19:26.600
Uh, uh, there's a comment here from, uh,

414
00:19:26.610 --> 00:19:29.330
one of the researchers at Penn State saying,

415
00:19:30.150 --> 00:19:33.050
uh. Let me, let me read the quote.

416
00:19:33.050 --> 00:19:35.890
It's actually, uh, quite nice. We looked at enough red

417
00:19:35.890 --> 00:19:38.570
dots until we saw one that had so much

418
00:19:38.570 --> 00:19:41.450
atmosphere that it couldn't be explained as typical stars

419
00:19:41.450 --> 00:19:44.350
as we'd expect from a galaxy. Um,

420
00:19:44.430 --> 00:19:47.350
uh, and so, uh, the researchers

421
00:19:47.350 --> 00:19:50.230
believe that these objects are driven, as I said, by

422
00:19:50.230 --> 00:19:53.190
supermassive black holes in their centres. Um, and

423
00:19:53.190 --> 00:19:55.310
going on to quote again, it's Joel, uh,

424
00:19:55.710 --> 00:19:58.630
Leha, I think is the name of this person. It's an

425
00:19:58.630 --> 00:20:01.510
elegant answer, really. Uh, we thought it was

426
00:20:01.510 --> 00:20:04.470
a tiny galaxy full of many separate cold stars, but

427
00:20:04.470 --> 00:20:07.470
it's actually effectively one gigantic, very cold star.

428
00:20:08.110 --> 00:20:10.750
Um, and that is so new,

429
00:20:10.750 --> 00:20:13.670
it's mind blowing. Um, and

430
00:20:13.670 --> 00:20:16.510
of course what you need is many more observations,

431
00:20:16.510 --> 00:20:19.400
lots more spectroscopy, uh, and,

432
00:20:19.710 --> 00:20:22.600
um, basically, uh, uh, a lot, a

433
00:20:22.600 --> 00:20:25.600
lot, you know, a lot of perhaps more theoretical

434
00:20:25.600 --> 00:20:28.120
work. Another quote from that same

435
00:20:28.120 --> 00:20:31.080
scientist. These black hole stars might be the

436
00:20:31.080 --> 00:20:34.000
first phase of formation for the black holes that we see

437
00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:36.760
in galaxies today. Supermassive black holes

438
00:20:36.840 --> 00:20:39.480
in their little infancy stage. So

439
00:20:39.800 --> 00:20:41.560
wow, that one out. Yeah.

440
00:20:41.560 --> 00:20:44.480
Andrew Dunkley: Because the biggest question, Fred Watson, is what's this going

441
00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:45.320
to be next week?

442
00:20:48.600 --> 00:20:51.600
Professor Fred Watson: What is a little red dot going to be next week? I've got a

443
00:20:51.600 --> 00:20:52.520
little black dog here.

444
00:20:52.600 --> 00:20:53.880
Andrew Dunkley: Could be a little black dog.

445
00:20:54.200 --> 00:20:54.680
Professor Fred Watson: Yes.

446
00:20:56.440 --> 00:20:59.360
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, it's a, It's a fascinating story and it just

447
00:20:59.360 --> 00:21:02.320
sort of keeps evolving. Uh, I suppose the more they look at it,

448
00:21:02.320 --> 00:21:05.160
the more we might understand. I always use the

449
00:21:05.160 --> 00:21:08.120
word male might or the words male might when it comes

450
00:21:08.120 --> 00:21:11.000
to this kind of thing, because you can never be

451
00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:13.820
absolutely in 100 certain in

452
00:21:14.140 --> 00:21:17.100
many facets of astronomy and space science,

453
00:21:17.100 --> 00:21:19.740
because sometimes we just aren't sure.

454
00:21:20.270 --> 00:21:23.140
Uh, although they're starting to, starting to really hone in on this

455
00:21:23.140 --> 00:21:25.100
one, by the sound of it. So that's.

456
00:21:25.100 --> 00:21:27.280
Professor Fred Watson: That's correct, yeah. Um, I, uh.

457
00:21:28.139 --> 00:21:30.620
And you know, that's the thing about science. So covering

458
00:21:31.020 --> 00:21:34.020
three different stories about little red dots in the

459
00:21:34.020 --> 00:21:36.860
last two months or so. Yeah. Uh, tells you how

460
00:21:36.860 --> 00:21:39.320
science works. And at the moment, science is

461
00:21:39.870 --> 00:21:42.870
powering ahead. It's going so quickly. The discoveries that

462
00:21:42.870 --> 00:21:45.670
are being made. Part of that is the tools we've got now. And the James

463
00:21:45.670 --> 00:21:48.270
Webb Telescope has definitely been, uh, a game

464
00:21:48.270 --> 00:21:49.150
changer in that.

465
00:21:49.150 --> 00:21:49.830
Andrew Dunkley: Absolutely.

466
00:21:49.830 --> 00:21:49.930
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.

467
00:21:49.930 --> 00:21:52.910
Andrew Dunkley: Ah, it just keeps, um, bringing up

468
00:21:52.910 --> 00:21:55.470
all sorts of new things. It's fascinating.

469
00:21:56.280 --> 00:21:59.150
Uh, and yeah, there seems to be a story every other

470
00:21:59.150 --> 00:22:02.110
day from the James Webb Space Telescope. Uh, just

471
00:22:02.110 --> 00:22:04.830
terrific. If you would like to read up on

472
00:22:04.990 --> 00:22:07.640
these, um, potential black hole

473
00:22:07.640 --> 00:22:10.640
stars, you can do that@cosmos magazine.com

474
00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:13.440
or you can read the paper at Astronomy and

475
00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:14.520
Astrophysics.

476
00:22:20.120 --> 00:22:21.060
Righto, Fred Watson.

477
00:22:21.060 --> 00:22:23.880
Uh, let's, uh, nail down our last

478
00:22:24.040 --> 00:22:26.800
story. And this is, uh, something that

479
00:22:26.800 --> 00:22:29.480
seems to be happening semi regularly

480
00:22:29.560 --> 00:22:32.440
now. Another quasi moon is attaching

481
00:22:32.440 --> 00:22:35.150
itself to Earth. Um, in some

482
00:22:35.150 --> 00:22:38.030
places we call these leeches. In other places

483
00:22:38.030 --> 00:22:40.870
we call them black flies or house flies

484
00:22:40.870 --> 00:22:43.790
because they just annoy the bajeebis out of

485
00:22:43.790 --> 00:22:46.790
people. Um, but, uh, yes, another

486
00:22:46.790 --> 00:22:49.710
one. I think this is about the third one we've talked about since

487
00:22:49.710 --> 00:22:52.270
we started doing the podcast that I'm aware of.

488
00:22:52.830 --> 00:22:55.750
Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's probably right. Um, so it's

489
00:22:55.750 --> 00:22:57.830
a. Yes, a quasi moon. Um,

490
00:22:58.910 --> 00:23:00.910
it's something like,

491
00:23:01.810 --> 00:23:04.810
ah, 20 metres or so

492
00:23:04.970 --> 00:23:07.530
across. So a tiny

493
00:23:07.530 --> 00:23:09.930
object. Um, it's

494
00:23:10.090 --> 00:23:13.070
comparable, actually, as one of the commentators has said, comparable,

495
00:23:13.070 --> 00:23:15.930
uh, with the object that exploded over

496
00:23:15.930 --> 00:23:17.610
Chelyabinsk in 2013.

497
00:23:18.810 --> 00:23:21.610
And that is small enough

498
00:23:21.770 --> 00:23:24.570
that it kind of eludes the gaze of

499
00:23:24.570 --> 00:23:27.370
telescopes. Unless you're fortunate. This one

500
00:23:27.370 --> 00:23:30.330
didn't. It was found uh not very long

501
00:23:30.330 --> 00:23:32.610
ago on 2 August 2025

502
00:23:33.310 --> 00:23:36.010
uh by astronomers uh with the

503
00:23:36.010 --> 00:23:38.650
Pan Starrs 1 telescope at Haleakala

504
00:23:38.650 --> 00:23:41.530
Observatory which is on um, the island of Maui

505
00:23:41.530 --> 00:23:44.450
in Hawaii. That telescope is close

506
00:23:44.450 --> 00:23:47.450
to my heart because Marnie and I got married in front of it. That's right

507
00:23:47.450 --> 00:23:50.330
on top of the mountain, uh, just actually over the top of the

508
00:23:50.330 --> 00:23:53.210
hill. Uh so of course Pan Starrs

509
00:23:53.210 --> 00:23:55.920
is doing a fabulous job in detecting these

510
00:23:56.480 --> 00:23:59.280
near earth objects, uh the small objects which

511
00:23:59.600 --> 00:24:02.160
NASA was mandated by Congress to find.

512
00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:05.220
Everything down to a size of one

513
00:24:05.220 --> 00:24:08.000
ah, hundred forty metres I think is the limit. This is much

514
00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:10.920
smaller than that. Um, so it was

515
00:24:10.920 --> 00:24:13.760
thought to be um, sort of bog standard near Earth

516
00:24:13.760 --> 00:24:16.560
asteroid. Uh it was given such a

517
00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:19.040
designation 2025 PN7.

518
00:24:19.360 --> 00:24:22.120
That's typical of the asteroidal um

519
00:24:22.320 --> 00:24:25.300
naming until an asteroid is given a you know a more

520
00:24:25.300 --> 00:24:28.220
elegant name. But what's now happened

521
00:24:28.220 --> 00:24:31.020
is um, actually an astronomer who

522
00:24:31.260 --> 00:24:33.970
is a French astronomer who, who looked at the uh,

523
00:24:34.460 --> 00:24:36.780
uh the details uh, and

524
00:24:37.580 --> 00:24:40.420
basically um, came to the conclusion that

525
00:24:40.420 --> 00:24:42.860
this is actually a

526
00:24:43.580 --> 00:24:46.460
quasi moon. What

527
00:24:46.460 --> 00:24:49.420
does that mean? Uh, it means it's in an orbit

528
00:24:49.420 --> 00:24:52.350
actually around the sun. But uh,

529
00:24:53.110 --> 00:24:56.110
that orbit is very much controlled by the

530
00:24:56.110 --> 00:24:58.710
Earth. So it's almost like this

531
00:24:58.710 --> 00:25:01.630
thing's following the Earth around in its orbit. There are a number

532
00:25:01.630 --> 00:25:03.590
of objects that do this,

533
00:25:04.230 --> 00:25:06.950
um, perhaps the

534
00:25:06.950 --> 00:25:09.910
best known one and I'm struggling to remember its

535
00:25:10.070 --> 00:25:11.770
name, uh

536
00:25:12.550 --> 00:25:15.430
Krusna, named by a colleague of mine who found

537
00:25:15.430 --> 00:25:18.430
it uh, uh when he worked at the

538
00:25:18.430 --> 00:25:21.170
Ukeshmite Telescope. Dunkley Waldron, still very

539
00:25:21.170 --> 00:25:24.050
active in the astronomy world up there in Brisbane.

540
00:25:24.390 --> 00:25:27.250
Uh so Krishna uh is in a sort

541
00:25:27.250 --> 00:25:30.170
of what you might call a kidney shaped

542
00:25:30.170 --> 00:25:33.170
orbit if you look just at the Earth. Uh so it

543
00:25:33.170 --> 00:25:35.930
sort of looks as though it's in orbit around the Earth but it's not, it's in

544
00:25:35.930 --> 00:25:38.304
orbit around the sun. And 2025

545
00:25:38.476 --> 00:25:40.930
PN7 is, is in a similar

546
00:25:40.930 --> 00:25:43.930
situation. However uh, scientists at a

547
00:25:43.930 --> 00:25:46.850
number of uh, uh institutions, um some of

548
00:25:46.850 --> 00:25:49.250
them I think are in Spain actually have

549
00:25:49.730 --> 00:25:52.530
analysed its orbit and reckon

550
00:25:52.930 --> 00:25:55.650
that it's only been there for about 60

551
00:25:55.650 --> 00:25:58.370
years uh and that

552
00:25:58.370 --> 00:26:01.130
it will probably only be there for about another 60

553
00:26:01.130 --> 00:26:03.850
years because its orbit is not stable.

554
00:26:03.850 --> 00:26:06.850
It's not stable over long periods.

555
00:26:06.850 --> 00:26:09.050
So uh, they reckon for about

556
00:26:09.050 --> 00:26:11.690
128 years it will be a quasi

557
00:26:11.690 --> 00:26:14.450
satellite of the Earth, uh but

558
00:26:14.790 --> 00:26:17.620
uh, we will eventually lose it.

559
00:26:18.010 --> 00:26:20.940
Uh, but it's uh, you know whilst it's here. It's one

560
00:26:20.940 --> 00:26:23.660
that deserves further study and that is exactly what's

561
00:26:23.660 --> 00:26:24.100
happening.

562
00:26:24.900 --> 00:26:27.780
Andrew Dunkley: I think they're saying that at the moment there are

563
00:26:27.780 --> 00:26:30.780
six other quasi moons. So this makes

564
00:26:30.780 --> 00:26:33.780
seven, um, currently doing,

565
00:26:34.900 --> 00:26:37.480
you know, their dance. Um,

566
00:26:37.780 --> 00:26:40.780
these things must come and go fairly regularly over time,

567
00:26:40.780 --> 00:26:43.580
I would imagine. And, and the good news is they

568
00:26:43.580 --> 00:26:46.580
don't think this one's going to pose any form of threat

569
00:26:46.820 --> 00:26:49.700
to Earth, uh, at all. Unless you live in

570
00:26:49.700 --> 00:26:52.620
Chelyabinsk, uh, or um, any

571
00:26:52.620 --> 00:26:55.540
other similar sized city. But stay away

572
00:26:55.540 --> 00:26:57.700
from the windows is basically the best advice.

573
00:26:58.740 --> 00:27:01.460
Professor Fred Watson: That's right, yes. Um, I think,

574
00:27:01.780 --> 00:27:04.780
um, there's another one which

575
00:27:04.780 --> 00:27:07.620
is of interest. Another of those seven that you mentioned,

576
00:27:08.260 --> 00:27:11.000
Kamaoalewa, uh, uh,

577
00:27:11.100 --> 00:27:13.980
discovered again I think by Pan Starrs, hence the Hawaiian name

578
00:27:14.860 --> 00:27:17.820
that lasts for 381

579
00:27:17.820 --> 00:27:20.460
years. Apparently, uh, it'll be a quasi

580
00:27:20.460 --> 00:27:23.260
moon. But what's of interest is that if I

581
00:27:23.260 --> 00:27:26.260
remember, it's called Tianwen 2A, ah,

582
00:27:26.420 --> 00:27:29.380
Chinese spacecraft which is going

583
00:27:29.380 --> 00:27:32.300
to rendezvous with it, uh, sometime within

584
00:27:32.300 --> 00:27:34.060
the next year or so. I think I remember.

585
00:27:34.780 --> 00:27:36.060
Andrew Dunkley: Interesting all. Uh-huh.

586
00:27:36.060 --> 00:27:36.140
Professor Fred Watson: Right.

587
00:27:36.140 --> 00:27:39.100
Andrew Dunkley: We might learn something from that. Yeah, if they tell

588
00:27:39.100 --> 00:27:41.740
us. Yeah. Um, but uh, yes, these

589
00:27:41.740 --> 00:27:44.220
quasi moons are interesting and it's the

590
00:27:44.220 --> 00:27:47.100
instability of their um, orbits

591
00:27:47.100 --> 00:27:49.740
that makes them sort of fly off and

592
00:27:49.820 --> 00:27:51.100
disappear into the ether.

593
00:27:51.900 --> 00:27:53.100
Professor Fred Watson: That's right, yeah.

594
00:27:53.420 --> 00:27:54.460
Andrew Dunkley: So where do they go?

595
00:27:55.020 --> 00:27:55.820
Professor Fred Watson: Somewhere else.

596
00:27:55.980 --> 00:27:58.220
Andrew Dunkley: Somewhere else. It's a good answer.

597
00:28:00.060 --> 00:28:03.020
Very good answer. All right. Uh, if

598
00:28:03.020 --> 00:28:03.340
you'd like.

599
00:28:03.340 --> 00:28:06.220
Professor Fred Watson: Well, they're in orbit around the sun, so they basically just continue

600
00:28:06.300 --> 00:28:06.640
with that.

601
00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:09.640
Andrew Dunkley: Uh, and until they get captured by something else, I

602
00:28:09.640 --> 00:28:12.600
suppose. But, um, yes, all right, uh, you can read up on

603
00:28:12.600 --> 00:28:15.160
that story on this rather interesting website called the

604
00:28:15.160 --> 00:28:17.960
Brighter side. Um, Brighter

605
00:28:17.960 --> 00:28:19.680
side News, in fact.

606
00:28:20.340 --> 00:28:23.280
Uh, and that brings us to the, uh, end of

607
00:28:23.280 --> 00:28:25.520
this particular episode. Fred Watson, thank you very much.

608
00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:28.880
Professor Fred Watson: Oh, you're welcome, Andrew. It's uh, great to catch

609
00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:29.360
up again.

610
00:28:29.760 --> 00:28:32.760
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, it is. It was nice to see you and Marnie

611
00:28:32.760 --> 00:28:35.640
and uh, Huw in the studio the other day who wasn't in the studio

612
00:28:35.640 --> 00:28:38.480
strangely, and he's not in the studio today. I don't know what

613
00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:41.080
he's doing. He's probably, um, playing with

614
00:28:41.080 --> 00:28:43.960
Jordy or something, you know, kidnapping

615
00:28:44.040 --> 00:28:44.920
feral cats.

616
00:28:46.680 --> 00:28:47.040
Professor Fred Watson: That'S.

617
00:28:47.040 --> 00:28:49.960
Andrew Dunkley: One of his hobbies. Yeah. Uh, thanks Fred Watson. We'll catch

618
00:28:49.960 --> 00:28:50.600
you real soon.

619
00:28:51.240 --> 00:28:52.760
Professor Fred Watson: Sounds good. See you later.

620
00:28:53.000 --> 00:28:55.800
Andrew Dunkley: And thanks, uh, for uh, watching and, or

621
00:28:55.800 --> 00:28:58.760
listening to Space Nuts. Don't forget to check out our Show

622
00:28:58.760 --> 00:29:01.760
Nuts, uh, Show Notes. Show Nuts. I

623
00:29:01.760 --> 00:29:04.690
suppose we could call them that, Show Notes, uh, at the

624
00:29:04.690 --> 00:29:07.330
bottom of the page on whatever platform you follow us on.

625
00:29:07.410 --> 00:29:10.250
And, uh, social media, of course. And

626
00:29:10.250 --> 00:29:13.090
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627
00:29:13.090 --> 00:29:16.090
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628
00:29:16.090 --> 00:29:18.850
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629
00:29:18.930 --> 00:29:21.890
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630
00:29:21.890 --> 00:29:24.450
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631
00:29:24.450 --> 00:29:26.770
events in astronomy and space

632
00:29:27.010 --> 00:29:29.850
science. Uh, but that's it. We'll catch you on the next

633
00:29:29.850 --> 00:29:32.770
episode, a Q and A episode coming up next week. Uh, we'll

634
00:29:32.770 --> 00:29:35.310
see you then from me, Andrew Dunkley. Bye.

635
00:29:35.310 --> 00:29:35.670
Professor Fred Watson: Bye.

636
00:29:36.790 --> 00:29:39.590
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637
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