Dwarf Planets, Peculiar Moons & the Mystery of Dark Matter

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Andrew Dunkley: Hi there. Thanks for joining us. Andrew Dunkley here. Ah,

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this is Space Nuts, where we talk

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astronomy and space science. Thanks for

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joining us. Coming up on this episode, lots,

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to talk about and really interesting stuff for a change.

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No, as usual. and this one,

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I saw and thought, gee, we got to talk about this because we're

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always looking for something in the outer rim of

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the solar system and now we may have

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found something and it's not planet nine. In fact, it's

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possibly a new dwarf planet, which

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could mean there is no planet nine.

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Interesting. there's a peculiar moon,

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orbiting Saturn, known as Iapetus. And

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it's starting to get attention again.

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We'll tell you why. And

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primordial black holes. Yep. And

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the fact that they might be today's dark

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matter. Is that a matter we should discuss?

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Damn right it is. And we'll do m it.

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Do it right now on, Space nuts.

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Voice Over Guy: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal.

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10, 9. Ignition

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sequence start. Space nuts. 5, 4, 3,

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2. 1. 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 4,

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3, 2, 1. Space nuts. Astronauts

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report it feels good.

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Andrew Dunkley: And despite his premature announcement,

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he officially welcome Professor Fred Watson Walton

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at large. Hello.

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Professor Fred Watson: Thank you for that. Yes, I do apologise for being there before. I'm,

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forgetting that I have to be formally introduced before I,

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Andrew Dunkley: More good.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yes, yes.

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Andrew Dunkley: Before, that's how I used to run my radio show. I didn't care

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what happened if some. If someone walked in. They were just part of the

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show. I didn't, you know, I

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never cared about standing on ceremony or,

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or, you know, sticking to the rules of radio.

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What rules? I mean, it's just people talking, isn't it? And

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playing music and enjoying themselves. I

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thought that's how I ran. Even when I

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worked for the nc, I was.

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Professor Fred Watson: I was like, that's right.

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Andrew Dunkley: I've been dropped for it a few times. But eventually

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they saw. They saw the light and started going, hang on a

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minute. Listening to this bloke. We

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might. We might be onto something.

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anyway, they eventually brought in an expert to teach us how

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to be human beings on the radio.

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Professor Fred Watson: Really give me dick.

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Andrew Dunkley: And when she, when she talked to me, she said, don't change

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a thing. Which I really. A great endorsement

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after being told shut up for several years.

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Professor Fred Watson: No. Well done. That's good.

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Andrew Dunkley: Now, before we get started, how's the weather down in

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Sydney? Because you've been copping us spanking with the

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rain.

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Professor Fred Watson: We did? Yes. one day last week, just

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overnight, we had 97 millimetres or

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getting on for five. Well four inches, isn't it in

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the measure? Yeah, that's right, four inches. that was

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just one night and all together we probably had something like

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150 of that wet period.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.

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Professor Fred Watson: So it was very wet, very miserable, very

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soggy. fortunately everything seemed to hold up.

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Our downstairs granny flat which used to

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flood when it rained but we had a lot of work done last year.

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That's was in good shape.

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Everything seemed to be all right.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, I shouldn't tell you that right now

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as we record there's a big

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rain band headed your way.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yes there is. That's right. We we already.

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Andrew Dunkley: It's easing off now. We had rain all day but I'm looking

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out now.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.

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Andrew Dunkley: And it stopped raining. This the sky is actually

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thinning. It's still quite grey but it's moving

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that way which is more due me.

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Professor Fred Watson: It is. We're expecting that later this

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afternoon. It sort of started off quite bright this morning but it

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is definitely looking a bit grayer now.

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Andrew Dunkley: So yeah, I, I have some news.

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At 2:37am M.

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Saturday, oh, our

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bedroom door rattled.

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Professor Fred Watson: Okay.

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Andrew Dunkley: And I, my first thought was that was an earth

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tremor. And guess what it was.

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It was a five point. Well they keep

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varying it but at the time it was a 5.3

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earthquake, centred around north of

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Ningen which is Ningen's

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160 kilometres west of us. And the

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earthquake was north of them by about

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98Ks. So it was a bit further

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than 160 kilometres from us. And

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yeah it shook because our door doesn't quite latch

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perfectly, it doesn't hold tight so it's always a bit

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loose. So when the air conditioning comes on it usually goes thump.

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They said did more than thump on Saturday morning I went

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and I woke up, went oh, earthquake. And Judy went,

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you sure? Really? I said yeah, I reckon it was because

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nothing else happened. Didn't feel any vibration.

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Professor Fred Watson: Okay, that's interesting. Yeah. You didn't feel it, Just the door

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did.

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Andrew Dunkley: well we got a great bed. Just very.

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Professor Fred Watson: That's quite proof.

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Andrew Dunkley: I had a lot for it. But yeah, it worked. We didn't feel the

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earthquake but yeah, sure enough next morning I thought

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I'd check and Geosciences Australia confirmed

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it. So 5.3 which is 1 of the biggest

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ever recorded out here.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's right. Yeah it is. So one of my

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colleagues at ah, the Australian Astronomical Observatory or

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former Australian Astronomical Observatory on the Anglo

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Australian Telescope, he is One of the telescope,

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operators, Andre Phillips, he

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was sitting in the control chair for the

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telescope and he felt something as well.

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He felt the chair being sort of moved,

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as though somebody was shaking it from behind.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, that's what it feels like. Yeah. Because I was in

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Newcastle earthquake and I'd done an overnight shift when it

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hit and it was 5.5.

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And it felt to me like somebody just got

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the end of the bed and was just bouncing,

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bouncing it up and down and. Yeah, it was much more violent

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than what we experienced.

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Professor Fred Watson: It would be. Yeah. yeah, actually, Andre,

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interestingly, this same gentleman I was just talking about, he

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also runs, a very sensitive seismograph at

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home because he's quite interested in seismometry.

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so, yes, I think he went home at the end of his night shift,

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had a look, and sure enough there was a 5.3 or

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5.2 earthquake, from

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Lingen.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, he would have felt more of it in Coonabarabran than

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he calculation because,

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I looked at the clock immediately and it was 2:37.

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And I know that was the exact time because it was an

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apple watch. So it was synchronised.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.

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Andrew Dunkley: And I worked out that the vibration took

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40 seconds to reach us.

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Professor Fred Watson: Okay.

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Andrew Dunkley: At approximately 300 kilometres an hour.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.

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Andrew Dunkley: Just round.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yes. Yeah, something like that.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. Anyway, give, Or take, because I

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don't. It wasn't exactly 236, but you know

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what I'm saying. yeah. So

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exciting. Exciting. Haven't been any aftershocks that I'm aware

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of. But, there's a lot of tremors out here that you don't ever feel

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or notice because they're just so small. But,

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nothing that big. We better get

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on with it, Fred Watson.

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And our first story,

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from the cosmos or closer to home, is a possible

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new dwarf planet, in the extremities

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of our solar system. This is, really

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exciting, if it holds true and

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it's sort of stacking up that way.

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Professor Fred Watson: I think so, yes. this is

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relatively straightforward,

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astrometry, which is the measurement of

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celestial objects in space, their actual,

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direction. and it,

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comes from, information

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collected over quite a long period of time,

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with, telescopes around the world.

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so a lot of this discovery is due to archival data

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where you can look at images of particular bits of the sky

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and accurately work out the position of objects in

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those images. it's actually what you do,

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Andrew. Just as an aside here, when a near Earth

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asteroid is detected

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the first thing astronomers do is look back

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through archival, data. To see if there are any,

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images, photographic images or electronically

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detected images that will show it. Because the longer

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you can observe something for, the more accurately you can

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deduce its orbit. And that is true with

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this object, which turns out to be a

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tno, a Trans Neptunian object.

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it's been, studied by,

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astrophysicists at the Institute for Advanced Study in

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Princeton. Very, very distinguished,

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institution. and what they found,

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is an object with the very

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unmemorable name of 2017 of

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201. it is

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an. An object. A trans Neptunian object

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in a very, very elongated orbit.

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its nearest point to

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the solar system is. I think

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it's 42,

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thereabouts astronomical unit. Is that right?

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No. 44,

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44.5. That's its closest point to the

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Sun. What we call the perihelion. 44.5

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times that of the Earth's orbit. In other words,

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44.5 astronomical UN.

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But the staggering thing is that it's

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aphelion. the furthest point,

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is, Now let me find

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the number. It's much, much higher. You might have

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32.

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I think it's more than that. where are

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we? I think it's in the thousands. it's,

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very, very distant. So

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when it was found. I beg your

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par. Yeah, when it was found, it was about 90

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astronomical units away.

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and there are enough observations that it's

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sort of continuing its orbit.

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1600. Yeah, 1600

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astronomical units. That's its

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furthest. And, that means that,

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it's only going to be visible to Earth. based

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telescopes for a few percent of its orbit. When

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it's, when it's at its nearest, point

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to Earth.

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Andrew Dunkley: They're actually saying, Fred Watson, that it's going far

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enough out to be entering the Oort

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cloud.

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Professor Fred Watson: That's right. Part of the inner Oort cloud, which makes it a very

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interesting object indeed with

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an orbital period, if I remember rightly, of. What is it,

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25,000 light years or something ridiculous like

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that.

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Andrew Dunkley: 25,000 years to complete an orbit.

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Professor Fred Watson: Sorry, 25,000 years, not 25,000 light years.

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Yeah. So it's a very, very distant object.

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In fact, it's probably, Apart from

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comets, it's probably one of the most distant

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objects ever discovered.

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because at its nearest, it's roughly the same

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distance from the sun as Pluto is. But it's furthest,

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as you've said. It's skimming the inner edge of the

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Oort Cloud, that cloud of, icy debris

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that we recognise as being the source of comets,

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comets that drifting towards the inner solar system.

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So a, really, remarkable,

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set of observations. It's been observed 19 times, so

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it's got a very high certainty in its

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orbit. but the quirky part

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of this, which you've already alluded to, is

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that, when the team, the

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research team who've done this work, actually

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looked at the simulations of,

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the way the orbit of 2017, of

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201, behaves,

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they found that, its

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orbit is only stable and long

258
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term without Planet Nine.

259
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so if you have Planet Nine in the

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equation, then it gets thrown out within

261
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100 million years, which means that's a short time

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in astronomical terms. So,

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yeah, it's it's that if.

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Andrew Dunkley: Its existence is confirmed,

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then Planet nine can't exist.

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That's what they're saying.

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Professor Fred Watson: That is what they are saying, yes. That it's. This is,

268
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a quote from the media. It's one of the

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strongest pieces of evidence yet against the

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existence of Planet Nine.

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yeah, that's right. it, it, it does

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suggests that there are more objects of the same

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kind. We haven't found them yet. but yes, the

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figure I was looking for earlier, it spends

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only 1% of its time in orbit, near

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enough to be able to be detected from Earth

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because it's such a. It's a relatively small

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object thought to be around 700 kilometres, which probably

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makes it a dwarf planet rather than a large

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asteroid. and, the, that's

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imagining that something that size can

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only be visible for 1% of its orbital

283
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period because the rest just takes it too far away.

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It gives you a good idea of just how elongated its

285
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orbit is.

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Andrew Dunkley: Gee, we're lucky to have spotted it given the timeframe.

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Professor Fred Watson: Well, that's right, yes. because it'll drift away and will

288
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very soon be, invisible to our

289
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planet.

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Andrew Dunkley: And it's a lot of weight to a theory we talked about

291
00:13:10.900 --> 00:13:13.060
some time ago from one

292
00:13:13.460 --> 00:13:16.180
scientist who said there is no Planet Nine.

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I think there's a whole bunch of stuff out there

294
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that's causing the same effect. And this

295
00:13:22.500 --> 00:13:24.180
sounds like one of those things.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's right. And it's similar. There was

297
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a similar argument around the same time by another group of

298
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scientists, one of whom I actually spoke to in

299
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Canada a couple of years ago, who said

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00:13:35.830 --> 00:13:38.790
effectively that the evidence for Planet Nine is

301
00:13:38.790 --> 00:13:41.790
based on. I don't know it's probably a dozen or

302
00:13:41.790 --> 00:13:44.680
so of these icy asteroids all

303
00:13:44.680 --> 00:13:47.480
of whose elongated orbits sort of line up

304
00:13:47.480 --> 00:13:50.280
in the same way. And the suggestion

305
00:13:50.600 --> 00:13:53.560
that was being made by these other scientists is that

306
00:13:53.720 --> 00:13:56.480
actually it's not so much

307
00:13:56.480 --> 00:13:59.360
that it's a selection effect. We just haven't found all the other

308
00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:02.230
ones that aren't aligned in the same way. that

309
00:14:02.230 --> 00:14:04.990
would contradict the idea of Planet nine.

310
00:14:05.550 --> 00:14:08.410
So yes, this object might be the poster child

311
00:14:08.410 --> 00:14:11.040
of the anti Planet nine lobby.

312
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but it does seem to suggest that it does

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not Planet nine does not exist. And just

314
00:14:16.950 --> 00:14:19.950
to underline what

315
00:14:19.950 --> 00:14:22.390
we're saying earlier, it has actually been officially

316
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confirmed as an asteroid

317
00:14:25.530 --> 00:14:28.400
by the International Astronomical Union. So it

318
00:14:28.400 --> 00:14:31.120
will no doubt get a name because once it's confirmed

319
00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:34.000
by the IAU then you can give it a name.

320
00:14:34.850 --> 00:14:36.130
Andrew Dunkley: Asteroid or dwarf planet.

321
00:14:38.490 --> 00:14:41.210
Professor Fred Watson: I mean a, ah, name like you know, Pluto

322
00:14:41.290 --> 00:14:44.140
or Makemake or one of

323
00:14:44.140 --> 00:14:44.740
those names.

324
00:14:45.300 --> 00:14:46.940
Andrew Dunkley: But we're calling it a dwarf planet.

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00:14:46.940 --> 00:14:49.540
Professor Fred Watson: That's, that's right, that's right, yeah. At 700

326
00:14:49.700 --> 00:14:52.340
kilometres. I don't think the IAU makes a

327
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distinction when they, when they actually

328
00:14:55.140 --> 00:14:58.100
confirm its orbit. They don't say anything about its

329
00:14:58.100 --> 00:15:00.710
size because that's

330
00:15:00.710 --> 00:15:03.670
dependent on, but that, that depends on measurements that are a

331
00:15:03.670 --> 00:15:06.670
lot more difficult to do. But once its orbit's been confirmed

332
00:15:06.670 --> 00:15:09.620
then it becomes an official object which could be

333
00:15:09.620 --> 00:15:11.340
either a dwarf planet or an asteroid.

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Andrew Dunkley: Okay, all right, so the jury might still be out

335
00:15:14.300 --> 00:15:17.250
for a bit but yes, it's there and it

336
00:15:17.250 --> 00:15:19.570
looks like that's put the kibosh on

337
00:15:19.810 --> 00:15:22.730
Planet Nine. More to come on

338
00:15:22.730 --> 00:15:25.650
that one I'm sure. Yes. Now

339
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if you'd like to read all about it you can do

340
00:15:27.490 --> 00:15:29.770
that@sciencealert.com

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this is space Nuts, Andrew Dunkley here with

342
00:15:32.970 --> 00:15:34.250
Professor Fred Watson Watson.

343
00:15:35.770 --> 00:15:38.620
Now let's take a quick break from the show to tell you

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Now back to Space Nuts.

400
00:18:20.770 --> 00:18:23.740
Space Nuts. Let's move on to our, next story.

401
00:18:23.900 --> 00:18:26.780
Fred Watson, I find this one fascinating for one

402
00:18:26.940 --> 00:18:29.780
reason. This is going to sound strange. I've

403
00:18:29.780 --> 00:18:30.860
never heard of this place.

404
00:18:31.180 --> 00:18:33.260
Professor Fred Watson: Oh really? I think I heard of it.

405
00:18:33.460 --> 00:18:35.670
Andrew Dunkley: it's a moon of Saturn known as

406
00:18:35.750 --> 00:18:38.670
Iapetus now. And I say I've never

407
00:18:38.670 --> 00:18:41.670
heard of it. When I saw the picture I went, oh, yeah, I know I've

408
00:18:41.670 --> 00:18:43.590
seen that picture before. Yes,

409
00:18:44.550 --> 00:18:47.030
because it's unique. That's why,

410
00:18:47.330 --> 00:18:49.640
this moon is so very interesting.

411
00:18:50.280 --> 00:18:53.200
Because questions are still being asked as to how it looks

412
00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:56.200
the way it does. It's a strange place and

413
00:18:56.200 --> 00:18:59.140
it's getting, a fair bit of attention in

414
00:18:59.300 --> 00:19:00.980
social media at the moment,

415
00:19:02.040 --> 00:19:04.530
amongst other things. But, yes, it's back in the news.

416
00:19:04.930 --> 00:19:07.930
Professor Fred Watson: It is back in the news. I think it is really, as you say, I think

417
00:19:07.930 --> 00:19:10.290
it really is social media that stirred this up.

418
00:19:11.090 --> 00:19:13.570
we. So, you know, until 2017,

419
00:19:13.890 --> 00:19:16.450
when the spacecraft plunged into the

420
00:19:16.450 --> 00:19:18.660
atmosphere of Saturn,

421
00:19:19.140 --> 00:19:20.980
we were absolutely,

422
00:19:21.700 --> 00:19:24.630
swamped by marvellous photographs of

423
00:19:24.630 --> 00:19:27.030
the moons of Saturn from the Cassini

424
00:19:27.030 --> 00:19:29.890
spacecraft. told us more about the moons of Saturn than we

425
00:19:29.890 --> 00:19:32.290
could ever have guessed that we'd learn.

426
00:19:33.070 --> 00:19:35.620
and I think, So Iapetus was

427
00:19:36.250 --> 00:19:38.930
certainly very much in the headlines then because it is such a

428
00:19:38.930 --> 00:19:41.640
peculiar world. but it sort of.

429
00:19:41.800 --> 00:19:44.560
Because so many of the questions don't really have proper

430
00:19:44.560 --> 00:19:47.470
answers, that's allowed

431
00:19:47.470 --> 00:19:50.130
it to sort of fade from, from the

432
00:19:50.370 --> 00:19:52.690
attention of planetary scientists. But

433
00:19:53.010 --> 00:19:55.810
it's been spotted by, I mean

434
00:19:55.810 --> 00:19:58.530
spotted in the media by social, Social

435
00:19:58.610 --> 00:20:01.590
media people who have really raised it

436
00:20:01.820 --> 00:20:04.660
once again, you know, as a place of

437
00:20:04.660 --> 00:20:07.660
great interest. And maybe that will encourage some of

438
00:20:07.660 --> 00:20:10.530
the planetary, scientists who've certainly had an interest

439
00:20:10.530 --> 00:20:13.000
in Iapetus, to go back to some of the

440
00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:15.840
Cassini data, maybe using, you know, more

441
00:20:15.840 --> 00:20:18.840
modern AI methods to analyse it and

442
00:20:18.840 --> 00:20:21.680
actually check out what is going on there.

443
00:20:22.830 --> 00:20:25.670
so it's the first thing you'd find

444
00:20:25.670 --> 00:20:28.570
out about Yapetus. And it

445
00:20:28.570 --> 00:20:31.450
was when it was discovered back in

446
00:20:31.450 --> 00:20:34.200
the 17th century, Giovanni

447
00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:36.870
Cassini, that great, observer who

448
00:20:36.870 --> 00:20:39.270
discovered the Cassini Division since the name,

449
00:20:41.560 --> 00:20:44.360
made the discovery that this, this

450
00:20:44.360 --> 00:20:46.440
little world orbiting Saturn,

451
00:20:47.080 --> 00:20:49.990
is peculiar because one side of it

452
00:20:49.990 --> 00:20:52.840
was very much darker than the other. I remember

453
00:20:52.840 --> 00:20:55.730
actually at the start of my career, back in the,

454
00:20:56.000 --> 00:20:58.960
early 1970s when I was working at the Nautical

455
00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:01.880
Almanack Office of the Royal Greenwich Observatory with one

456
00:21:01.880 --> 00:21:04.880
of my colleagues there, Andy Sinclair was a specialist on

457
00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:07.840
Iapetus and he kept telling me it was a very peculiar

458
00:21:07.840 --> 00:21:10.810
world. but it was only when Cassini flew

459
00:21:10.810 --> 00:21:13.690
by a few decades later that we realised just how peculiar

460
00:21:13.690 --> 00:21:16.250
it is. So it is covered in

461
00:21:16.250 --> 00:21:19.120
craters, but it's got

462
00:21:19.120 --> 00:21:21.920
this dark side which just looks as though

463
00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:24.760
it's been spattered with soot. Looks as though,

464
00:21:24.920 --> 00:21:27.480
you know, somebody's put a pile of soot out there

465
00:21:28.120 --> 00:21:29.950
and Iapetus, has run into it.

466
00:21:31.230 --> 00:21:33.950
and you've. So you've got this very dark face to it,

467
00:21:34.110 --> 00:21:36.910
contrasting with a very highly reflective

468
00:21:36.910 --> 00:21:39.220
surface. now

469
00:21:39.300 --> 00:21:42.180
that's peculiar in itself because

470
00:21:42.260 --> 00:21:45.260
it's only on one side and that's the forward facing

471
00:21:45.260 --> 00:21:47.680
side. Iapetus goes around Saturn

472
00:21:47.990 --> 00:21:50.840
tidally locked, so that it always keeps the same face

473
00:21:50.840 --> 00:21:53.720
to Saturn. That means there's always a forward side and

474
00:21:53.720 --> 00:21:56.520
a backward side. This stuff's on the forward side.

475
00:21:56.520 --> 00:21:59.520
If I'm actually remembering from my, talks

476
00:21:59.520 --> 00:22:02.360
on Cassini, ah, back in the day, I haven't done one of

477
00:22:02.360 --> 00:22:04.880
those for nearly a decade. But anyway,

478
00:22:05.510 --> 00:22:08.420
that's the one peculiar thing about it, but

479
00:22:08.580 --> 00:22:11.580
the other one is even weirder. And this is

480
00:22:11.580 --> 00:22:14.420
this equatorial ridge, a ridge that goes

481
00:22:14.420 --> 00:22:16.620
all the way around it. It's something like 10

482
00:22:16.620 --> 00:22:19.450
kilometres, or thereabouts.

483
00:22:19.610 --> 00:22:22.570
It's a line of mountains, effectively, but

484
00:22:22.570 --> 00:22:25.290
it's right along the equator

485
00:22:25.770 --> 00:22:26.970
of Iapetus.

486
00:22:27.530 --> 00:22:29.210
Andrew Dunkley: It reminds me of a walnut.

487
00:22:30.010 --> 00:22:33.010
Professor Fred Watson: It is. That's right. I used to think it looked like a walnut.

488
00:22:33.010 --> 00:22:35.120
Exactly that. and so,

489
00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:38.880
I mean, there's various theories as to how it got

490
00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:41.440
there. And the one that I thought was the most

491
00:22:41.760 --> 00:22:44.270
common one, was

492
00:22:44.670 --> 00:22:47.600
that, it was caused by the contraction of

493
00:22:47.600 --> 00:22:49.600
the crust of Iapetus.

494
00:22:49.600 --> 00:22:50.560
Andrew Dunkley: That makes sense.

495
00:22:50.780 --> 00:22:51.980
Professor Fred Watson: the, you know,

496
00:22:53.100 --> 00:22:55.500
Iapetus cooled after its creation.

497
00:22:55.880 --> 00:22:58.700
it's rotating on its axis. the

498
00:22:58.700 --> 00:23:01.580
crust contracts until you get a

499
00:23:01.580 --> 00:23:04.260
bulge which naturally forms around the

500
00:23:04.500 --> 00:23:07.420
equator of rotation, right angles to the axis

501
00:23:07.420 --> 00:23:09.740
of rotation. But, I think other

502
00:23:09.820 --> 00:23:12.740
hypotheses have, have

503
00:23:12.740 --> 00:23:15.260
been put forward. One is

504
00:23:15.980 --> 00:23:18.540
that perhaps there was a ring system

505
00:23:18.620 --> 00:23:21.020
around Iapetus that actually

506
00:23:21.100 --> 00:23:23.340
collapsed and fell onto the surface and

507
00:23:23.820 --> 00:23:26.140
generated the ring of mountains.

508
00:23:26.610 --> 00:23:29.530
another one is possibly icy material

509
00:23:29.930 --> 00:23:32.170
coming out from beneath the surface of

510
00:23:32.170 --> 00:23:34.740
Iapetus. We know that, many of the

511
00:23:34.900 --> 00:23:37.520
moons of the, of those outer planets,

512
00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:41.160
got ice or perhaps icy

513
00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:44.160
slush underneath the surface.

514
00:23:44.920 --> 00:23:47.590
because of, the fact that they're what we call ice

515
00:23:47.590 --> 00:23:50.560
worlds with a, with a central rocky core, a,

516
00:23:50.510 --> 00:23:53.190
liquid ocean above it, which may be quite

517
00:23:53.190 --> 00:23:56.180
slushy. and then a crust of solid ice on top of

518
00:23:56.180 --> 00:23:59.180
that. That could be the construction. Once again, if you've

519
00:23:59.180 --> 00:24:02.140
got stuff coming up from beneath the surface and the object

520
00:24:02.140 --> 00:24:05.140
is spinning fast enough, then you will get,

521
00:24:05.230 --> 00:24:07.950
perhaps a ring of mountains like we

522
00:24:07.950 --> 00:24:09.550
see on the apertus,

523
00:24:10.720 --> 00:24:13.600
none of which come from the original idea, which was

524
00:24:13.600 --> 00:24:16.320
contraction. So I'm very interested

525
00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:19.590
to know where the scientific, you know, the scientific,

526
00:24:20.810 --> 00:24:23.720
consensus is going on this little world. And, it's

527
00:24:23.720 --> 00:24:26.520
great that it's, it's cropped up again, it's welled up again

528
00:24:26.520 --> 00:24:27.830
into the public consciousness.

529
00:24:28.140 --> 00:24:31.140
Andrew Dunkley: It has, yeah. Another theory I read was just a

530
00:24:31.140 --> 00:24:32.900
high spin rate at some stage.

531
00:24:32.900 --> 00:24:33.340
Professor Fred Watson: Yes.

532
00:24:33.420 --> 00:24:36.340
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, that would Cause a bulge rather

533
00:24:36.340 --> 00:24:38.540
than a mountain range. I would, I would expect that.

534
00:24:39.980 --> 00:24:42.580
Professor Fred Watson: Well you'd normally that causes a

535
00:24:42.580 --> 00:24:45.510
planet to flatten slightly so that it's

536
00:24:46.130 --> 00:24:48.930
it's. Yes it's a bulge. It's the ah, Earth's

537
00:24:48.930 --> 00:24:51.650
shape is that ah, what we call an oblate spheroid.

538
00:24:52.130 --> 00:24:55.130
Saturn itself actually is the most extreme example in the

539
00:24:55.130 --> 00:24:57.540
solar system because it's the

540
00:24:57.540 --> 00:25:00.140
diameter between the poles is

541
00:25:00.140 --> 00:25:02.860
significantly less than the diameter across the equator.

542
00:25:03.270 --> 00:25:06.180
and it's this kind of oval shape in cross

543
00:25:06.180 --> 00:25:09.180
section. so that's what you'd

544
00:25:09.180 --> 00:25:12.180
expect from something rotating quickly not as

545
00:25:12.420 --> 00:25:14.940
a well defined ridge of

546
00:25:14.940 --> 00:25:17.340
mountains like we see on Iapetus.

547
00:25:17.340 --> 00:25:19.060
Quite an amazing world.

548
00:25:19.620 --> 00:25:22.500
Andrew Dunkley: Another weird factor I suppose is its

549
00:25:22.500 --> 00:25:24.980
proximity to Saturn. It's actually a long way away.

550
00:25:25.300 --> 00:25:27.610
Professor Fred Watson: Very far. Yes, that's right. So what is it?

551
00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:30.800
3.2 million millimetres or

552
00:25:30.800 --> 00:25:33.040
thereabouts? It's a long, long way,

553
00:25:33.200 --> 00:25:35.920
3.22 million kilometres from Saturn.

554
00:25:38.080 --> 00:25:41.040
Andrew Dunkley: Could the dark face be some sort of reaction with

555
00:25:41.040 --> 00:25:43.120
Saturn radiation or something like that?

556
00:25:43.280 --> 00:25:46.130
Professor Fred Watson: It's the thinking back in the

557
00:25:46.130 --> 00:25:48.770
Cassini era and I suspect it's probably similar

558
00:25:49.090 --> 00:25:51.970
is that it consists of organic chemicals

559
00:25:52.530 --> 00:25:55.350
that form this kind of soot. I think

560
00:25:55.810 --> 00:25:58.720
solens might have been in invoked

561
00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:01.430
as well. These are particular organic chemicals

562
00:26:01.430 --> 00:26:04.110
that we know coat a lot of the outer

563
00:26:04.110 --> 00:26:07.070
worlds because they're generated by I think the

564
00:26:07.070 --> 00:26:09.790
impact of cosmic rays on material.

565
00:26:10.780 --> 00:26:13.340
but it's the peculiar thing is that

566
00:26:13.340 --> 00:26:16.220
it's ah, only on one side. It looks as though it's just

567
00:26:16.220 --> 00:26:19.100
kind of run into something that's splattered all over the front of

568
00:26:19.100 --> 00:26:19.340
it.

569
00:26:19.420 --> 00:26:21.980
Andrew Dunkley: It's got that impression. Yeah. Somebody spilled the paint.

570
00:26:23.060 --> 00:26:24.740
Professor Fred Watson: Just what it looks like. That's why.

571
00:26:24.740 --> 00:26:27.520
Andrew Dunkley: Really odd. Yeah. If you'd like to take a look at it. Yapetis

572
00:26:28.450 --> 00:26:31.450
is all over the Internet, lots of social media. But there's a great

573
00:26:31.450 --> 00:26:34.370
article@dailygalaxy.com worth

574
00:26:34.370 --> 00:26:37.340
reading on Yapetis. It starts with an I. It's

575
00:26:37.340 --> 00:26:40.180
spelled I A P E T U S

576
00:26:40.180 --> 00:26:43.100
Yapetus. This is Space Nuts with Andrew

577
00:26:43.100 --> 00:26:44.580
Dunkley and Fred Watson Watson.

578
00:26:47.060 --> 00:26:49.860
Roger, you're last Nuts.

579
00:26:50.460 --> 00:26:53.330
Our final story today Fred Watson ah,

580
00:26:53.340 --> 00:26:55.940
takes us to the very rare

581
00:26:56.100 --> 00:26:58.420
area of black hole discussion.

582
00:26:59.680 --> 00:27:02.480
we get so many questions on this. I mean

583
00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:05.640
it's, it's unbelievable. In fact I think there was

584
00:27:05.640 --> 00:27:07.440
a question popping up about black holes

585
00:27:08.700 --> 00:27:11.660
in our next episode as a matter of fact. But and,

586
00:27:11.660 --> 00:27:14.300
and I think the reason is quite simple. People

587
00:27:14.300 --> 00:27:16.910
just want to understand Them and

588
00:27:16.910 --> 00:27:18.550
there's so much we don't know.

589
00:27:20.960 --> 00:27:23.600
this particular story focuses on

590
00:27:23.600 --> 00:27:26.480
primordial black holes and the possibility that

591
00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:29.120
they may well be responsible for today's

592
00:27:29.120 --> 00:27:31.920
dark matter. Please

593
00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:32.480
explain.

594
00:27:34.240 --> 00:27:37.200
Professor Fred Watson: Well, yeah, this is a piece of theoretical

595
00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:40.090
research which is good

596
00:27:40.090 --> 00:27:42.610
because you need it. it's ah,

597
00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:45.890
this is research by Japanese scientists

598
00:27:46.170 --> 00:27:48.940
in Tokyo and elsewhere. and

599
00:27:49.340 --> 00:27:52.300
what you have got here is

600
00:27:52.380 --> 00:27:54.300
people who are ah, looking

601
00:27:55.340 --> 00:27:58.340
sort of almost with new eyes if I can put it that way, at

602
00:27:58.340 --> 00:28:00.700
the dark matter problem because

603
00:28:01.700 --> 00:28:04.500
dark matter is a big problem. We've got this stuff

604
00:28:04.500 --> 00:28:07.300
that seems to have a gravitational hold on galaxies

605
00:28:07.540 --> 00:28:10.130
so that they don't fly ap. and a ah,

606
00:28:10.140 --> 00:28:13.100
gravitational hold on galaxy clusters so

607
00:28:13.100 --> 00:28:15.990
they don't fly apart as well. and yet we can't

608
00:28:15.990 --> 00:28:18.710
detect it. We cannot detect it in any way

609
00:28:18.790 --> 00:28:21.270
other than by its gravitational pull.

610
00:28:21.350 --> 00:28:23.510
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, we've never captured any of it or

611
00:28:24.070 --> 00:28:25.029
anything like that.

612
00:28:25.190 --> 00:28:28.150
Professor Fred Watson: No, that's right. So this, the, the you know,

613
00:28:28.150 --> 00:28:30.790
what, what, what have we got to go on?

614
00:28:31.910 --> 00:28:34.630
Not very much, ah, in terms of

615
00:28:35.100 --> 00:28:38.050
our understanding. however

616
00:28:39.090 --> 00:28:42.050
there was quite early on in the black, in

617
00:28:42.050 --> 00:28:44.960
the dark matter story, a number

618
00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:47.760
of experiments carried out on on

619
00:28:47.760 --> 00:28:50.320
big telescopes. One of which was actually here

620
00:28:50.720 --> 00:28:53.520
in Australia a very historic telescope

621
00:28:53.680 --> 00:28:56.680
called the 50 inch at Matt Strongloe, previously

622
00:28:56.680 --> 00:28:59.680
known as the Great Melbourne Telescope because it's very old but

623
00:28:59.680 --> 00:29:02.160
it had been modernised with new equipment.

624
00:29:02.660 --> 00:29:05.140
And they did an experiment which was called macho.

625
00:29:05.700 --> 00:29:08.650
And it was designed to look

626
00:29:08.890 --> 00:29:11.290
for the gravitational lensing effect

627
00:29:11.770 --> 00:29:14.250
of large objects in

628
00:29:14.730 --> 00:29:17.650
the, in the universe, basically in the

629
00:29:17.650 --> 00:29:20.610
vicinity of our galaxy. And by large objects I mean things

630
00:29:20.610 --> 00:29:23.370
that aren't subatomic particles. So I mean

631
00:29:23.370 --> 00:29:25.990
things like orphaned planets,

632
00:29:26.550 --> 00:29:29.350
dead stars or black holes.

633
00:29:29.620 --> 00:29:32.610
MACHO was actually an acronym for Massive Compact Halo

634
00:29:32.610 --> 00:29:35.050
Objects. Now they didn't

635
00:29:35.920 --> 00:29:38.160
see as many of these

636
00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:40.800
gravitational lensing phenomena,

637
00:29:42.989 --> 00:29:45.870
in other words the space around one of these objects being bent

638
00:29:45.870 --> 00:29:48.750
so it magnifies an object behind it. They didn't see

639
00:29:48.750 --> 00:29:51.720
any in numbers that were sufficient to

640
00:29:51.720 --> 00:29:53.970
make machos the

641
00:29:54.530 --> 00:29:57.370
missing dark matter. And so

642
00:29:57.370 --> 00:30:00.290
that was in the 90s that

643
00:30:00.290 --> 00:30:03.170
really ruled out things like black holes

644
00:30:03.250 --> 00:30:06.190
as being the culprits for dark matter.

645
00:30:06.590 --> 00:30:09.400
And so that's when we were you know, our attention

646
00:30:09.400 --> 00:30:12.120
was shifted to the idea that dark matter is

647
00:30:12.280 --> 00:30:15.040
actually some species of subatomic particles, perhaps

648
00:30:15.040 --> 00:30:18.000
many species, but ones that don't interact in any way

649
00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:20.520
with normal matter. And that's where things remain today.

650
00:30:21.160 --> 00:30:24.100
So it's interesting to find a paper which kind

651
00:30:24.100 --> 00:30:26.780
of goes back to an older idea that

652
00:30:27.020 --> 00:30:29.580
maybe black holes actually do

653
00:30:29.580 --> 00:30:32.400
contribute to the dark matter. and the

654
00:30:32.400 --> 00:30:35.400
reason why I think this paper has been published. Is that there

655
00:30:35.400 --> 00:30:38.040
is a slightly new twist to it. Because

656
00:30:38.120 --> 00:30:40.590
these are, The

657
00:30:40.590 --> 00:30:43.510
postulate is that these are primordial black holes.

658
00:30:43.510 --> 00:30:46.310
Black holes which were created at the same

659
00:30:46.310 --> 00:30:49.160
time as the universe was. In other words, during

660
00:30:49.320 --> 00:30:51.160
or immediately after the Big Bang.

661
00:30:52.310 --> 00:30:54.790
so that you, you basically,

662
00:30:56.520 --> 00:30:59.440
find these objects potentially. We,

663
00:30:59.440 --> 00:31:02.320
we've never observed a primordial black hole. People just kind

664
00:31:02.320 --> 00:31:04.520
of guess that they are there. And we do

665
00:31:05.080 --> 00:31:08.040
see black holes that, that, that

666
00:31:08.920 --> 00:31:11.800
maybe fall within the mass range of a primordial

667
00:31:11.800 --> 00:31:14.780
black hole. But, we don't actually know

668
00:31:14.780 --> 00:31:16.460
that they exist. But,

669
00:31:17.750 --> 00:31:19.910
to come to the point, I'm not being very clear here.

670
00:31:20.550 --> 00:31:23.180
What has actually led, to this research

671
00:31:23.740 --> 00:31:26.220
is that the lifetime of a black hole

672
00:31:26.700 --> 00:31:29.180
is possibly much, much longer

673
00:31:29.500 --> 00:31:32.420
than Hawking predicted that these primordial

674
00:31:32.420 --> 00:31:35.420
black holes would last. He gave them because

675
00:31:35.420 --> 00:31:37.940
they were smaller. He gave them a relatively short

676
00:31:37.940 --> 00:31:40.330
lifetime. Black holes, we know, do

677
00:31:40.330 --> 00:31:43.090
evaporate because they release Hawking radiation. This

678
00:31:43.090 --> 00:31:45.890
quantum, mechanics phenomena. and,

679
00:31:48.060 --> 00:31:51.060
the idea, even though that is a very, very slow

680
00:31:51.060 --> 00:31:53.979
process. If you've got these sort of mini black holes that

681
00:31:53.979 --> 00:31:56.660
were formed in the, origin of the

682
00:31:56.660 --> 00:31:59.540
universe, our thinking was that they might all have evaporated

683
00:31:59.540 --> 00:32:02.300
by now. And that's where this new research

684
00:32:02.300 --> 00:32:04.220
comes in. Because they're proposing a new

685
00:32:04.870 --> 00:32:07.860
mechanism, which has got an interesting name.

686
00:32:07.860 --> 00:32:10.850
It is, something called.

687
00:32:11.890 --> 00:32:14.410
I've lost the name of it. M It's

688
00:32:14.410 --> 00:32:17.330
basically, yes, the memory burden effect. Work

689
00:32:17.330 --> 00:32:20.010
that one out. Yeah, the

690
00:32:20.010 --> 00:32:22.820
memory burden effect, suggests

691
00:32:22.820 --> 00:32:25.470
that, the information

692
00:32:26.110 --> 00:32:28.670
stored, if I can put it that way, in the black hole.

693
00:32:28.910 --> 00:32:31.230
Actually stabilises it and keeps it,

694
00:32:31.910 --> 00:32:34.830
from decaying. So that the. To cut to the

695
00:32:34.830 --> 00:32:37.460
quick, the idea is that these

696
00:32:37.620 --> 00:32:40.140
primordial black holes. Might last a lot longer than

697
00:32:40.140 --> 00:32:43.060
Hawking predicted they would. And perhaps they

698
00:32:43.060 --> 00:32:45.940
are, after all, the missing dark matter.

699
00:32:46.580 --> 00:32:49.300
Now, that still has to account for why we

700
00:32:49.300 --> 00:32:51.980
didn't detect them by gravitational lensing. During the

701
00:32:51.980 --> 00:32:54.940
Macho experiment. And similar experiments carried

702
00:32:54.940 --> 00:32:57.460
out elsewhere in the world. But it is an interesting

703
00:32:57.780 --> 00:32:58.180
possibility.

704
00:32:58.500 --> 00:32:59.460
Andrew Dunkley: Yes, yes.

705
00:33:01.840 --> 00:33:04.800
it's probably the best theory we've got, I suppose, at

706
00:33:04.800 --> 00:33:05.440
the moment.

707
00:33:06.040 --> 00:33:08.600
Professor Fred Watson: yeah. I'm not sure that it is. Oh,

708
00:33:08.600 --> 00:33:11.490
okay. I, think, You

709
00:33:11.490 --> 00:33:14.290
know, I, I Because

710
00:33:14.290 --> 00:33:17.210
we don't even know whether primordial black holes

711
00:33:17.210 --> 00:33:19.870
actually exist. we don't know that these

712
00:33:19.870 --> 00:33:22.500
subatomic particles exist either. but

713
00:33:22.660 --> 00:33:25.140
it seems to me that the bill is better

714
00:33:25.140 --> 00:33:28.100
fitted by what black holes might be.

715
00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:31.530
sorry, by what dark matter might be. by

716
00:33:31.690 --> 00:33:34.250
the subatomic particles rather than

717
00:33:34.890 --> 00:33:36.250
primordial black holes.

718
00:33:36.729 --> 00:33:39.130
Andrew Dunkley: Well, they won't be letting you do a peer review, will they?

719
00:33:39.130 --> 00:33:41.890
Professor Fred Watson: They won't. No, that's about me. I've made my mind up

720
00:33:41.890 --> 00:33:44.810
already, you see, but we don't know what they are. What? You know, are

721
00:33:44.810 --> 00:33:47.750
they neutralinos? Are they WIMPs?

722
00:33:47.750 --> 00:33:49.750
Weakly interacting massive particles?

723
00:33:50.470 --> 00:33:53.190
Sterile neutrinos? There's all kinds of things that have been

724
00:33:53.190 --> 00:33:56.170
proposed for these, subatomic particles, but

725
00:33:56.170 --> 00:33:57.490
none have yet been detected.

726
00:33:57.890 --> 00:34:00.760
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, all right, interesting. I'm sure that'll

727
00:34:00.760 --> 00:34:03.120
spawn no questions whatsoever from our audience.

728
00:34:04.880 --> 00:34:07.840
Professor Fred Watson: Heidi will have to deal with them next time. Yes, he will.

729
00:34:07.840 --> 00:34:09.360
Andrew Dunkley: Yes, she will indeed.

730
00:34:10.270 --> 00:34:12.720
so if you'd like to chase that up, there's a great article,

731
00:34:13.100 --> 00:34:14.270
on fizz

732
00:34:16.760 --> 00:34:19.720
detecting the primordial black holes that could be today's

733
00:34:19.720 --> 00:34:21.480
dark matter. Fred Watson thinks not.

734
00:34:22.520 --> 00:34:25.230
But, that's what science is about, tossing these ideas

735
00:34:25.230 --> 00:34:28.190
around. And that brings us to the end of

736
00:34:28.190 --> 00:34:30.510
yet another episode of Space Nuts. Thanks, Fred Watson.

737
00:34:31.150 --> 00:34:34.100
Professor Fred Watson: It's a pleasure, Andrew. Always good to talk. And, I look forward to

738
00:34:34.100 --> 00:34:34.860
our next time.

739
00:34:35.340 --> 00:34:38.340
Andrew Dunkley: Indeed. And thanks, to Huw in the

740
00:34:38.340 --> 00:34:41.260
studio who couldn't be with us today. He found himself a

741
00:34:41.260 --> 00:34:44.100
primordial black hole and. And we've

742
00:34:44.100 --> 00:34:46.980
not seen him since him since Baron

743
00:34:46.980 --> 00:34:49.650
Feed Love Spaghetti. with me, Andrew

744
00:34:49.650 --> 00:34:52.570
Dunkley. Thanks for your company. Catch you on the next episode of

745
00:34:52.570 --> 00:34:54.170
Space Nuts. Bye. Bye.

746
00:34:55.290 --> 00:34:58.170
Voice Over Guy: You've been listening to the Space Nuts Podcast,

747
00:34:59.690 --> 00:35:02.490
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748
00:35:02.650 --> 00:35:05.370
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749
00:35:05.370 --> 00:35:07.740
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750
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751
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