Cosmic Reflections: The WOW Signal, Uranus' New Moon & SpaceX Triumphs

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Heidi Campo: Everybody, welcome back to what might

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very well be my last episode

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hosting this podcast, Space

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Nuts.

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Generic: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal.

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10, 9. Ignition

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sequence start. Space nuts. 5, 4, 3,

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2. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 4,

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3, 2, 1. Space nuts. Astronauts

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report. It feels good.

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Heidi Campo: Uh, the podcast is not going anywhere. Don't you worry. Uh,

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we'll have our regular host, uh, Andrew Dunkley, return

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maybe next week. Um, or I might be back. So

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this could be a very dramatic goodbye and then I show up again.

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But we don't know. What we do know is

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that the beloved, um, Fred Watson is still here

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with us today. Fred, how are you doing?

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Professor Fred Watson: Oh, pretty good, thank you, Heidi. Um,

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feeling for you because you've done such a

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fabulous job over the last 13

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weeks. I think it is. Um, and,

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um, yeah, we've. We've had some

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hitches and glitches and all kinds of things like that, but

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you've come through it all wonderfully. And, um, I think

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the podcast is in better shape now than it was before.

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Heidi Campo: Oh, thank you. That's very kind. It's so

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crazy to think of, you know, just 13 weeks ago.

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You guys can think about where you were 13 weeks ago and how much

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has changed over the summer. And for me, I was

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involved in a NASA proposal

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project where we wrote a whole proposal trying

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to get funding. We didn't get the funding, but it was a really fun

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project. Um, I wrote another

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proposal that's going to be submitted to the IRB soon. It's just

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like, wow, so much. So much has happened and changed

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in 13 weeks. Um, what about you,

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Fred? How's your. Well, I guess, winter.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yes, it's been a winter. Yeah, it's been a very busy time, actually. We,

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we did a, um, tour at one point,

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and we've done a lot of things.

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Um, uh, good, uh, things, and

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mostly good things. One or two things that. Less good.

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But all things are going well and we're

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still going strong, and the podcast will continue to do so. And

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of course, in that 13 weeks, we had that lovely news that

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we were seventh in the top 50 podcasts

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on astronomy and space science. So that's.

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Heidi Campo: Well, I have one word for that.

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Can you guess my word?

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Professor Fred Watson: Um, mine will be awesome.

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Heidi Campo: I'm going to say. Wow.

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Professor Fred Watson: Oh, good. Well, what a. What a lovely segue

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into.

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Heidi Campo: And that is a segue. You guys know me and love me for

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my segues.

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Wow is actually our first article

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of the day where we are talking about a radio

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signal. This is something I know nothing about. Fred

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knows everything about so let's hear this from Fred.

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Professor Fred Watson: Oh, yeah, um, I'm glad to hear

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that you, um, you were coming fresh to this story because

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it's one that keeps one returning

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and is, you know, one of the

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ones that intrigues us all in the quest

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for whether there is intelligent

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life beyond our planet.

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Um, so the story is, uh, it goes

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back to 1977 when a

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telescope in your country, Heidi. Uh, radio

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telescope, uh, the Big Ear Observatory,

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Delaware. Delaware, Ohio.

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Uh, that telescope had.

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By 1977 it had completed a really excellent

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radio wavelength

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survey of the sky, the northern sky. Uh,

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and it was being sort of handed over

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to the SETI Project Search for

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Extraterrestrial Intelligence. Um, and

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that made, uh, it the, you know,

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the biggest ear, if I can put it that way, because it's called the Big

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Ear. Uh, uh, it was

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effectively the biggest ear in the world listening for radio

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signals that might have had an intelligent origin,

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uh, somewhere deep in space. So, uh, the job

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it was doing was actually looking for extraterrestrial

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intelligence signals. Uh, the telescope's no

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longer there, actually. I believe the site is now a golf course. So.

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Heidi Campo: Oh, wow.

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Professor Fred Watson: There you go. Wow. Um,

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uh, so what, what happened? Well, uh, the.

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Back in 1977, your

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information came out on a. What was called a line

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printer. The, basically a printer with a

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lot of numbers on, um, was nothing like

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the elegant, uh, hardware that we've got these days

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where we just immediately plot graphs and things of that sort on our

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lovely color screens. Everything was in black and white.

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Uh, and your information came out as uh, I said,

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on a printer. Uh, and so,

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uh, an astronomer, sadly, I can't remember his name. Jerry, I think, was

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his first name. Um, he was

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looking through this, this output,

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uh, as I think he probably did every

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day, uh, and came upon

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a, ah, set of numbers and letters actually, because it's

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in, um, you know, the numbers aren't enough

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for this. It's in. I don't think it's hexadecimal, but it's some

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code a bit like that. So you get numbers and letters.

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Uh, and he came across this string of letters

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that indicated a very, very strong

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signal, uh, for a very short

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time. And uh, with, uh,

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his red biro pen, he wrote

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wow in the margin of the print hour. And

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that's why it's called the wow. Signal. And it's been called that ever

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since. Sadly, what it hasn't had ever since

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is any real understanding of what caused it,

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uh, because, um, it was never

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repeated. Um, and

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ah, a lot of analysis Was done

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as to whether it was a signal that had come from

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some terrestrial source, you know, TV

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station or something of that sort, or satellites. Uh,

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because there were of course satellites there. We had

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satellites in place for uh, 20 years by then.

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Um. And um. People have looked at things

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like well, uh. Could it have been reflection of a

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radio signal from the moon? Uh, because radio

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telescopes can pick up reflections from the moon.

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Um, but no, it wasn't. The moon was on the other side of the Earth at the

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time. So that wasn't going to be what it was.

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Um, and so it's been a focus of interest.

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You know, was it really a burst of

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radiation at the particular

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frequency, uh, which um.

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We have always kind of thought maybe

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any uh, intelligent aliens out uh, there might

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use. Um. This. Um. It's a

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frequency that actually

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hydrogen, uh called hydrogen radiates on.

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So uh. It's perhaps the best known

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frequency in the whole of radio astronomy.

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Um because cold hydrogen

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radiates signals at that frequency. And that's

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um. Cold hydrogen lets you map the, you know,

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the distribution of hydrogen in space and gives us insights

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into the universe that we wouldn't have had

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otherwise. It's at a frequency of 14, 20

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megahertz. Um, we usually ah, often

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talk about the 21 centimeter line because that's the wavelength

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of this. Of this radiation. So that frequency

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was what was chosen and um, for the.

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The. You know, for the. For the SETI

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search. Uh, and getting this massive signal

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at that frequency, of course is very, very

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intriguing and remains so to this

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day. So why is it in the news again?

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Well, because, um. Things have moved

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on a little bit in terms of computation and data

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analysis since 1977,

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as Joe has. That's right. So,

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um, quite a large group of um,

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interested scientists have got together, uh,

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and basically reanalyzed the

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data. Um, uh,

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they've actually um, put um.

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I think the original uh,

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printouts through optical character

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recognition software, um, so that

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they can actually digitize

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what was just numbers on a piece

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of paper. And that of course lets you then do a

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much more um, sophisticated analysis.

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Uh, and so what they've done is looked again at the signal and

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it turns out that uh, things are slightly

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different from what we thought they were. And in particular,

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uh, the um. Um.

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Intensity of the signal is

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about uh. It's probably about um.

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20% higher than what

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was originally estimated. So it was even

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stronger than people thought at the time.

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Uh, and it's. Yeah, it's got, you

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know, a few other little things that have changed

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uh, but at the end of the day, it doesn't really

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give us any more information about what caused this.

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Uh, and I just to, uh,

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kind of recap a little bit. I remember writing

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a little article, it's probably a couple of years ago now,

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about again about the wow Signal.

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But, uh, about new research that

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had speculated on what might have caused it. And I think

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that is still the most likely cause.

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Um, and it comes about because of a

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phenomenon that we didn't know about in 1977,

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but we do now. And that is, uh, these

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flares on highly magnitude.

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M sorry. Highly magnetized neutron

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stars. So neutron stars are,

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as we know, we often talk about them. They're the size of a

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city, but with the mass of a star in them.

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So they're highly compressed material. They've got

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intense magnetic fields. Some of them beam out

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radiation like a lighthouse. And we call them pulsars because

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we see that lighthouse being

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pulsating. Um, but these

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events that we call fast radio bursts, which have been known

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about for the last 10, 15 years or so,

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we think come from flares on

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really highly magnetized neutron

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stars. Uh, some objects that we call

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magnetars. So these

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flares, um, they don't come out at the

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frequency that I'm talking about, though. What's interesting

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is that, um, the suggestion is

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that what you've got is a cloud of hydrogen.

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And, uh, behind it, perhaps a long, long way behind

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it, is one of these magnetars, perhaps in an even

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more distant galaxy, that suddenly flares and, um,

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beam radio waves, which we would see as

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a fast radio burst. But

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the effect of that on the cloud of

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hydrogen that's between us and the magnetar

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is to excite it and turn it into a kind of

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laser. It basically excites the radio

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radiation within the cloud of hydrogen. And then you

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get that, uh, hydrogen signal until that.

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Heidi Campo: So they work kind of like, uh, light waves going

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through a prism or rain creating a rainbow. Does it work?

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Kind of like that. Refracting. Refracting the

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signal.

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Professor Fred Watson: It's. And, uh, that's part of the story. I think

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maybe a better way to think of it might be like,

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um. If you,

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uh. If you've got a. Well, you know, something like, um.

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We used to talk about organ pipes because that's how sound

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waves were. You know, if you've, if you've got a cavity

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and you yell into it and. And

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it's, uh. And it's the right size, that will set

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up a resonance, uh, with your voice. And

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it will amplify your VOICE and that's more or less

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the process that's taking place within these clouds of

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hydrogen. But uh, um,

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it's on a much more gigantic scale.

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And so you get this almost laser like effect

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on the radiation that magnifies it. And

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that's perhaps the best

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explanation so far. We have seen similar

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phenomena to this, uh, but they're not

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as intense as the wow signal. The wow signal is still the

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most intense unexplained signal.

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So, um, make of that what you will, Heidi. Um,

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is it from aliens beaming radiation

253
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somewhere? Is it from a natural

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alignment of two objects that

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uh, give the give rise to this kind of laser like

256
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radiation beam? I don't know. But, um,

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I think the wow signal will continue to

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uh, intrigue astronomers and space scientists for a long

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time to come.

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Heidi Campo: Absolutely. Absolutely. It is, you know, it's tough

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because, you know, and folks at seti, there's probably

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so much confirmation bias they have to overcome because you're going

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to look, you're going, if you're a hammer, everything's a nail.

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And so many times we want to look at something and go, that's

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got to be what I want it to be. And then we get

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more pieces of the puzzle and we're like, oh, shoot, that's

267
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definitely hoping it was.

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Generic: Okay.

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Professor Fred Watson: We checked all four systems and being with a go space

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nets.

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Heidi Campo: But, um, with our next story,

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we are getting more pieces of the puzzle that are

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very clear. And this is actually about

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my favorite planet, Uranus. I

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think it is beautiful, I think it is

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underrated. And we are now discovering

277
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some new moons orbiting around

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this fantastic

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sideways blue marble planet.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, I mean, I always think, um,

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a discovery of something like a new moon is

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really big news, even if it's only 10

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kilometers or six miles across as this one

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is. Um, ah, I

285
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do remember when I was a youngster

286
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getting, uh, interested in astronomy. M. We thought Saturn had

287
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nine moons. Um,

288
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um, and I don't know whether you're familiar with the total

289
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that we know now, but the membrane,

290
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not sure.

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Heidi Campo: With what it's at from the last time I heard it, but it keeps

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growing.

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Professor Fred Watson: It does. It's 274.

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Heidi Campo: Heidi 74. I think the last time

295
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I heard it was in the 250s, so.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, yeah, that's right. Continuing to grow. So it keeps.

297
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And, and a lot of that is, um, these are really small

298
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objects that lurk in the rings of Saturn.

299
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Um, and of course, uh, Uranus has rings as well.

300
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And what we found in this new discovery,

301
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uh, is a Moon that is

302
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just on the edge of uh, the rings, the ring

303
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system of Uranus. Um, what I

304
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think impresses me about this story most

305
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is the achievement that it represents when

306
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it's once again highlighting just

307
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how effective and efficient the James Webb telescope is.

308
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Uh, because that telescope has been used uh,

309
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to discover this moon. The moon as I've already

310
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said, is about, thought to be about ah,

311
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10 kilometers across, 6 miles

312
00:14:48.350 --> 00:14:50.830
or so, something like that, maybe 7 miles.

313
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Um, it is at a distance

314
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of um, 30 times

315
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the distance from the Earth, uh,

316
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to the sun, uh, which is um,

317
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it's something like three if I remember

318
00:15:07.190 --> 00:15:09.870
rightly. It's about 3 billion kilometers.

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Heidi Campo: So if you were on the surface of Uranus, you'd notice, be able to

320
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see it. It'd be too small and too

321
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far away probably.

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Professor Fred Watson: That's right. Um, I mean

323
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Uranus is a gas giant. So you, you'd be, you'd be

324
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floating I guess or something like that. But yes,

325
00:15:26.810 --> 00:15:29.810
kind of a station. Yeah, it would almost certainly

326
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be, it would be too small to see uh, with the

327
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unaided eye. Um, but

328
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yes, ah, you know that the, the, the

329
00:15:38.650 --> 00:15:41.570
triumph is being able to see it from the distance that

330
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we are here on our uh, uh,

331
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extraordinary discovery of a tiny object

332
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at such an amazing distance away.

333
00:15:51.220 --> 00:15:53.980
So uh, it's a good story. What does it

334
00:15:53.980 --> 00:15:56.980
mean? It means we've got a new object which

335
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currently has the name of

336
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S2025U1

337
00:16:02.180 --> 00:16:05.030
which tells you that it's the first um,

338
00:16:05.030 --> 00:16:07.860
Uranus moon discovered in

339
00:16:07.860 --> 00:16:10.740
2025. The

340
00:16:10.740 --> 00:16:13.500
S meaning satellite. Uh, so uh, that's

341
00:16:13.500 --> 00:16:16.460
an International Astronomical Union code, uh,

342
00:16:16.900 --> 00:16:19.820
which is commonly used for new discoveries. But it will end

343
00:16:19.820 --> 00:16:21.700
up with a name, uh, that

344
00:16:22.610 --> 00:16:25.180
um, ah, either comes from the

345
00:16:25.180 --> 00:16:27.060
writings of Shakespeare

346
00:16:27.940 --> 00:16:30.880
or from uh, Pope, um, ah,

347
00:16:30.880 --> 00:16:33.540
Alexander Pope because they're the

348
00:16:33.700 --> 00:16:36.500
two authors, uh, whose characters

349
00:16:36.660 --> 00:16:39.340
are actually um, the names of the

350
00:16:39.340 --> 00:16:42.100
characters have been adopted, uh, for the

351
00:16:42.100 --> 00:16:44.780
moons of Uranus, um, with

352
00:16:45.420 --> 00:16:48.260
the most famous ones like Titania, ah, Oberon and

353
00:16:48.260 --> 00:16:51.100
Ophelia. These are all big name

354
00:16:51.180 --> 00:16:53.980
moons of that planet, uh, who knows

355
00:16:53.980 --> 00:16:54.220
what.

356
00:16:54.300 --> 00:16:55.020
Heidi Campo: Cupid.

357
00:16:55.420 --> 00:16:57.940
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, all of that, all of those. Who knows what s

358
00:16:57.940 --> 00:17:00.940
2025 new one will wind up with.

359
00:17:00.940 --> 00:17:03.940
But uh, uh, it'll be something pretty cool

360
00:17:03.940 --> 00:17:04.380
I think.

361
00:17:05.340 --> 00:17:08.300
Heidi Campo: So to be a moon, does it have to be

362
00:17:08.300 --> 00:17:09.340
a certain size?

363
00:17:10.810 --> 00:17:13.490
Professor Fred Watson: That's a great question. Um, and uh,

364
00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:16.730
uh, where that blurring

365
00:17:16.730 --> 00:17:19.650
occurs is in the rings of

366
00:17:19.650 --> 00:17:22.250
objects like Saturn, uh, and

367
00:17:22.490 --> 00:17:25.409
Uranus. So those rings are made of many,

368
00:17:25.409 --> 00:17:28.210
many particles, some uh, of

369
00:17:28.210 --> 00:17:30.970
which are just pieces of dust, but some are

370
00:17:30.970 --> 00:17:33.970
Quite large. You know, you've probably got things 10 meters

371
00:17:33.970 --> 00:17:36.650
across which are orbiting and forming the ring

372
00:17:36.650 --> 00:17:39.610
systems. Uh, are they moons? That's the

373
00:17:39.850 --> 00:17:42.570
question. Uh, what's the boundary

374
00:17:42.730 --> 00:17:45.690
between a large ring particle and a

375
00:17:45.690 --> 00:17:48.690
moon? And so the size is probably

376
00:17:48.690 --> 00:17:51.490
a critical thing. I don't think there is a

377
00:17:51.490 --> 00:17:53.770
size limit. I think it's more about,

378
00:17:54.640 --> 00:17:57.170
uh, for example, with this newly

379
00:17:57.170 --> 00:17:59.970
discovered moon. Yes, it's perhaps 10

380
00:17:59.970 --> 00:18:02.850
kilometers across, uh, but it's not in

381
00:18:02.850 --> 00:18:05.790
the ring system of Uranus. It's clearly not

382
00:18:05.790 --> 00:18:08.390
a ring particle. It is an independent moon.

383
00:18:08.630 --> 00:18:11.270
So I guess that's actually what qualifies it for the,

384
00:18:11.430 --> 00:18:12.470
for the title.

385
00:18:13.270 --> 00:18:16.030
Heidi Campo: Excellent. I don't know why I thought of the classic

386
00:18:16.030 --> 00:18:18.470
Star wars line. That's no moon.

387
00:18:19.669 --> 00:18:20.550
Space station.

388
00:18:21.590 --> 00:18:22.310
Professor Fred Watson: That's right.

389
00:18:23.110 --> 00:18:24.870
Heidi Campo: I'm a nerd. I can't help it.

390
00:18:27.430 --> 00:18:28.870
Generic: Roger, your labs are here.

391
00:18:28.870 --> 00:18:30.390
Professor Fred Watson: Also space nuts.

392
00:18:30.560 --> 00:18:33.320
Heidi Campo: Um, I have uh, an Amazon

393
00:18:33.320 --> 00:18:36.160
Alex Zaharov-Reutt that I use to get my morning news and

394
00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:38.920
all over the news today, while we're recording

395
00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:41.720
this was all the news of the starship launch

396
00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:44.680
and the success. And we were talking about that on our last

397
00:18:44.680 --> 00:18:47.560
episode. We had our fingers crossed. We

398
00:18:47.560 --> 00:18:49.920
were hopeful for the success of the

399
00:18:50.370 --> 00:18:53.280
um, SpaceX Starship launch. And it looks

400
00:18:53.280 --> 00:18:55.960
like it did. Great. Do you want to tell us more about

401
00:18:55.960 --> 00:18:56.320
this?

402
00:18:57.290 --> 00:18:59.770
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, um, it is, it's really

403
00:19:00.170 --> 00:19:03.010
basically a good news, good news story in the

404
00:19:03.010 --> 00:19:05.610
sense that uh, um, once again,

405
00:19:05.850 --> 00:19:08.690
um, the technology has worked. Uh,

406
00:19:09.450 --> 00:19:12.250
so just a recap of

407
00:19:12.410 --> 00:19:13.820
what we're talking about. Um,

408
00:19:14.810 --> 00:19:17.570
SpaceX, their biggest rocket is the

409
00:19:17.570 --> 00:19:20.570
Starship, which is in two parts, the super heavy

410
00:19:20.570 --> 00:19:23.490
launch vehicle and what is called ship, which is the

411
00:19:23.490 --> 00:19:26.490
top stage, uh, of the vehicle. And

412
00:19:27.050 --> 00:19:30.010
that pairing, uh, has had 10

413
00:19:30.090 --> 00:19:33.010
test launches so far. Um, some

414
00:19:33.010 --> 00:19:35.810
of them were less than successful, some of

415
00:19:35.810 --> 00:19:37.930
them resulted in what,

416
00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:41.010
um, SpaceX terms, uh, a

417
00:19:41.010 --> 00:19:43.210
rapid unscheduled disassembly.

418
00:19:43.560 --> 00:19:46.450
Uh, we would call it an explosion, but they call

419
00:19:46.450 --> 00:19:48.410
it a rapid unscheduled disassembly.

420
00:19:49.130 --> 00:19:51.970
And um, so it's um, uh, great

421
00:19:51.970 --> 00:19:54.940
to report that the 10th flight, uh, everything went

422
00:19:54.940 --> 00:19:57.660
absolutely according to plan. And

423
00:19:57.740 --> 00:20:00.340
the plans were a little bit different from some of the earlier

424
00:20:00.340 --> 00:20:03.340
missions. Um, you probably remember, Heidi, that

425
00:20:03.580 --> 00:20:06.340
the way that the booster itself, the super

426
00:20:06.340 --> 00:20:09.270
heavy part of the spacecraft returns, uh,

427
00:20:09.700 --> 00:20:12.380
to Earth, it returns to its launch pad

428
00:20:12.460 --> 00:20:15.380
and is captured by what are being called

429
00:20:15.380 --> 00:20:17.900
the chopsticks, a pair of arms that

430
00:20:18.060 --> 00:20:21.020
grab hold of it as it comes down and

431
00:20:21.020 --> 00:20:23.820
basically puts it back on the launch pad so it can be reused

432
00:20:23.820 --> 00:20:25.730
almost immediately, which is

433
00:20:26.200 --> 00:20:28.760
extraordinary technology, um, that has been

434
00:20:28.760 --> 00:20:31.680
successfully tested in some of the earlier missions. That wasn't

435
00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:34.200
the plan for this mission. The super heavy

436
00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:37.080
booster was purposely uh, dropped into the

437
00:20:37.080 --> 00:20:39.960
ocean. Um, but the ship itself

438
00:20:41.230 --> 00:20:44.160
uh, made a soft landing. Now it was a soft landing

439
00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:47.040
on water, uh, and that was intended as well.

440
00:20:47.040 --> 00:20:49.720
And in fact it virtually hit its target

441
00:20:49.800 --> 00:20:52.760
because there was a boy, uh, with cameras on it

442
00:20:53.150 --> 00:20:55.990
ready in the vicinity to watch this thing land. And

443
00:20:55.990 --> 00:20:58.790
indeed it did. Uh, and um, its

444
00:20:58.790 --> 00:21:01.430
breaking rockets slowed it down so that it

445
00:21:01.430 --> 00:21:03.710
basically just kissed the water and then

446
00:21:05.230 --> 00:21:08.070
sank down into water. There's a lot of steam about as you'd

447
00:21:08.070 --> 00:21:11.030
expect from rocket jets, um, playing on

448
00:21:11.030 --> 00:21:14.030
the, um, on the water surface. And that was intended

449
00:21:14.030 --> 00:21:17.030
as well. That was in the Indian Ocean. So I think it was something like

450
00:21:17.030 --> 00:21:19.790
a 45 minute flight that the ship itself made.

451
00:21:20.410 --> 00:21:23.400
Um, so that was all exactly what was planned. And

452
00:21:23.400 --> 00:21:26.400
that's great news because it means that things

453
00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:28.560
are on track. Um, it's critical

454
00:21:29.300 --> 00:21:32.080
uh, uh, that we should have a working

455
00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:35.080
system because as you know, the

456
00:21:35.080 --> 00:21:37.920
ship itself is going to be the vehicle

457
00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:40.840
that will land Artemis astronauts on the

458
00:21:40.840 --> 00:21:43.640
moon, hopefully in 2027. Maybe it will

459
00:21:43.640 --> 00:21:46.560
slip a little bit. But uh, Chip is going to be

460
00:21:46.870 --> 00:21:49.710
Starship itself. The ship part of it is going to be

461
00:21:49.710 --> 00:21:52.230
the landing vehicle, uh, that will take

462
00:21:52.230 --> 00:21:54.750
Artemis astronauts down to the

463
00:21:54.750 --> 00:21:57.550
surface. So it's got to work and it's got to work

464
00:21:57.550 --> 00:22:00.390
well and that's why it's great to see these tests

465
00:22:00.900 --> 00:22:03.830
uh, coming. Good. Of course, um,

466
00:22:03.910 --> 00:22:06.390
Elon's um, whole

467
00:22:06.390 --> 00:22:09.190
motivation for building this gigantic

468
00:22:09.190 --> 00:22:11.190
rocket, 400ft tall,

469
00:22:11.430 --> 00:22:14.430
123 meters. Uh, his motivation is

470
00:22:14.430 --> 00:22:17.390
to take people to Mars. And um, I think

471
00:22:17.390 --> 00:22:20.390
that's a little bit further down the track. He might have

472
00:22:20.390 --> 00:22:23.270
the vehicle to do it, but I think there are a lot of problems to

473
00:22:23.270 --> 00:22:26.190
solve before we send people to Mars on Starship.

474
00:22:27.630 --> 00:22:30.190
Heidi Campo: I've heard him say that he wants to be the first person

475
00:22:30.270 --> 00:22:32.670
to be born on Earth and die on Mars.

476
00:22:33.390 --> 00:22:33.870
Professor Fred Watson: Yes.

477
00:22:33.950 --> 00:22:36.950
Heidi Campo: And uh, there's kind of the joke. It's like, well you need

478
00:22:36.950 --> 00:22:39.950
to specify if it's going to be in the landing or if you've

479
00:22:39.950 --> 00:22:41.150
walked on Mars.

480
00:22:42.730 --> 00:22:44.890
So that would be a very important

481
00:22:45.050 --> 00:22:46.570
specification. Yeah.

482
00:22:48.490 --> 00:22:50.970
Either way we are making crazy

483
00:22:50.970 --> 00:22:53.970
progress rapidly towards, towards these

484
00:22:53.970 --> 00:22:56.890
visions. I mean is there there been a point

485
00:22:56.890 --> 00:22:59.690
in your career, your space career, where you

486
00:22:59.690 --> 00:23:02.010
saw advances happening this rapidly

487
00:23:02.650 --> 00:23:03.610
at any point?

488
00:23:03.930 --> 00:23:06.650
Professor Fred Watson: No. And um, I um, mean that. But there was

489
00:23:06.650 --> 00:23:09.610
a critical moment which was back in 2015

490
00:23:10.090 --> 00:23:12.810
and that's when SpaceX managed to

491
00:23:12.810 --> 00:23:15.690
successfully land a booster and

492
00:23:16.570 --> 00:23:19.290
reuse it, because that's the game changer, that

493
00:23:19.290 --> 00:23:22.210
technology that allows you to bring a booster back rather than just dumping

494
00:23:22.210 --> 00:23:24.720
it into the ocean, which is what happened, um,

495
00:23:25.370 --> 00:23:28.290
for, you know, all the decades before that, um,

496
00:23:28.290 --> 00:23:31.290
costing millions of dollars. Uh, but if you

497
00:23:31.290 --> 00:23:34.130
can reuse the booster, then suddenly you've, you've made

498
00:23:34.130 --> 00:23:37.090
an economy. That is a game changer. And, and

499
00:23:37.090 --> 00:23:40.050
that's actually what's happened. So. Yes, I've never seen

500
00:23:40.050 --> 00:23:41.970
things happening as rapidly as they are now.

501
00:23:42.770 --> 00:23:45.690
Heidi Campo: Yeah. Uh, has this

502
00:23:45.690 --> 00:23:48.170
impacted astronomy? Are we able to get more

503
00:23:48.170 --> 00:23:50.970
satellites and, um, tools out there for

504
00:23:50.970 --> 00:23:51.250
you?

505
00:23:51.810 --> 00:23:54.410
Professor Fred Watson: Because it's. Yes, that's right. Because it's now

506
00:23:54.410 --> 00:23:56.610
cheaper, uh, to launch,

507
00:23:57.250 --> 00:23:59.010
uh, things into orbit, then

508
00:24:00.050 --> 00:24:02.370
telescopes, uh, can be

509
00:24:02.530 --> 00:24:05.410
launched on a much lower budget, ah,

510
00:24:05.410 --> 00:24:08.390
astronomical telescopes into orbit, uh, than they were before.

511
00:24:09.070 --> 00:24:09.630
Um,

512
00:24:12.310 --> 00:24:15.230
it used to be this cost that people used

513
00:24:15.230 --> 00:24:17.430
to talk about to get something into orbit was about

514
00:24:17.430 --> 00:24:20.430
$20,000 per kilogram, and that's come

515
00:24:20.430 --> 00:24:23.110
down to $2,000 per

516
00:24:23.110 --> 00:24:26.070
kilogram. Um, and, you know, that's

517
00:24:26.070 --> 00:24:28.710
just a game changer. In fact,

518
00:24:29.350 --> 00:24:32.270
with Starship, it's forecast that it might come down

519
00:24:32.270 --> 00:24:35.150
to $200 a kilogram, uh, which,

520
00:24:35.150 --> 00:24:38.110
you know, is just unheard of. So

521
00:24:38.110 --> 00:24:41.070
if you've got a cheap way of getting stuff into space, then

522
00:24:41.070 --> 00:24:43.750
it costs you less to have an astronomy

523
00:24:43.750 --> 00:24:46.390
mission. So, yes, it will impact our, uh, science.

524
00:24:47.430 --> 00:24:50.390
Heidi Campo: Well, that's amazing. And you know,

525
00:24:50.390 --> 00:24:53.150
for all you space nuts listening, maybe we'll all

526
00:24:53.150 --> 00:24:55.750
one day be able to afford a ticket to space.

527
00:24:56.460 --> 00:24:59.260
But until then, I know of something

528
00:24:59.340 --> 00:25:01.580
that you can do that will impact,

529
00:25:02.160 --> 00:25:04.460
uh, space in a positive way. That's

530
00:25:04.460 --> 00:25:07.020
absolutely free. And I'm

531
00:25:07.020 --> 00:25:09.980
specifically talking to you people living

532
00:25:09.980 --> 00:25:12.420
in Australia, if you're a resident, if you're a

533
00:25:12.420 --> 00:25:15.340
citizen, this is something that you can and

534
00:25:15.340 --> 00:25:17.660
should get involved with that can

535
00:25:17.660 --> 00:25:19.740
absolutely, positively impact

536
00:25:20.460 --> 00:25:20.860
space.

537
00:25:21.260 --> 00:25:23.860
So I'm going to let Fred tell you guys all about the

538
00:25:23.860 --> 00:25:26.300
Australian. The Australian,

539
00:25:26.720 --> 00:25:28.620
uh, Dark Sky Alliance.

540
00:25:30.140 --> 00:25:31.820
I'm not saying that word right.

541
00:25:31.980 --> 00:25:34.140
Professor Fred Watson: No, it's quite, quite all right. It's actually

542
00:25:34.140 --> 00:25:37.140
Australasian and, uh. Australasian, yeah.

543
00:25:37.140 --> 00:25:40.100
So it includes, uh, Australasia, includes New

544
00:25:40.100 --> 00:25:42.940
Zealand and some of the other neighboring countries around

545
00:25:42.940 --> 00:25:45.860
Australia. Uh, and it's the Australasian Dark

546
00:25:45.860 --> 00:25:48.780
sky alliance, uh, an advocacy body that

547
00:25:48.780 --> 00:25:50.780
was founded, um, back in 2019,

548
00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:54.380
um, actually by my partner Marnie,

549
00:25:54.680 --> 00:25:57.480
uh, and other colleagues of hers came, uh,

550
00:25:57.740 --> 00:26:00.380
together to set up this advocacy body

551
00:26:00.700 --> 00:26:03.420
to basically, um, tell people

552
00:26:03.420 --> 00:26:06.260
about dark skies and, um, what you can do

553
00:26:06.260 --> 00:26:09.140
with them. The fact that you can see

554
00:26:09.140 --> 00:26:11.660
the stars for a start, from A dark sky park.

555
00:26:12.140 --> 00:26:14.780
But, um, since then it's

556
00:26:14.780 --> 00:26:17.580
basically, uh, uh, changed quite a lot because

557
00:26:17.580 --> 00:26:20.500
we've now recognized just how damaging light pollution is, not

558
00:26:20.500 --> 00:26:23.490
just for astronomers and stargazers

559
00:26:23.490 --> 00:26:26.290
and perhaps people who watch the sky for cultural reasons.

560
00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:29.810
Uh, wildlife is severely impacted by

561
00:26:30.050 --> 00:26:32.690
light pollution and human health is as well.

562
00:26:33.170 --> 00:26:36.010
We know much more about now about the way our

563
00:26:36.010 --> 00:26:39.010
circadian rhythms require us to have this

564
00:26:39.170 --> 00:26:42.090
night and day, um, succession. So

565
00:26:42.090 --> 00:26:45.090
the Australasian Dark sky alliance, uh, is

566
00:26:45.330 --> 00:26:48.260
always calling for good lighting. Uh,

567
00:26:48.260 --> 00:26:50.810
it's got an approval program for light

568
00:26:50.810 --> 00:26:53.810
fittings, uh, a little bit like, uh, what is

569
00:26:53.810 --> 00:26:56.810
now called Dark Sky International. Used to be the International Dark

570
00:26:56.810 --> 00:26:59.170
Sky Association. Dark Sky International,

571
00:26:59.860 --> 00:27:02.530
uh, based in the usa, but here in Australia,

572
00:27:03.300 --> 00:27:05.410
uh, the alliance is

573
00:27:06.050 --> 00:27:09.010
currently wanting to follow a number of

574
00:27:09.010 --> 00:27:11.970
countries in Europe, uh, such as France,

575
00:27:11.970 --> 00:27:14.690
Germany, Croatia and in fact the European

576
00:27:14.690 --> 00:27:17.310
Union as a whole is looking at this to have

577
00:27:17.310 --> 00:27:20.110
legislation, uh, at

578
00:27:20.110 --> 00:27:22.830
a national level that protects

579
00:27:22.830 --> 00:27:25.790
dark skies, that effectively controls light

580
00:27:25.790 --> 00:27:28.510
pollution. Because at the moment there are no national

581
00:27:28.590 --> 00:27:31.590
controls here in Australia for light pollution. So they've

582
00:27:31.590 --> 00:27:33.870
set up a petition, uh, to

583
00:27:34.160 --> 00:27:37.070
uh, send to Parliament. It's open until

584
00:27:37.070 --> 00:27:40.070
the 19th of September. They need 10,000 signatures

585
00:27:40.070 --> 00:27:43.030
for it to go ahead. You can only sign if you are

586
00:27:43.030 --> 00:27:46.010
resident, uh, in Australia or a citizen of

587
00:27:46.010 --> 00:27:49.010
Australia. Uh, so I'm sorry for

588
00:27:49.010 --> 00:27:52.010
people beyond our uh, borders, but I hope

589
00:27:52.010 --> 00:27:54.450
you will, um, applaud us for doing this.

590
00:27:54.820 --> 00:27:57.370
Uh, so, uh, anybody within Australia who's

591
00:27:57.370 --> 00:28:00.209
interested, uh, if you go to um, the

592
00:28:00.290 --> 00:28:02.500
site, the website which is uh,

593
00:28:02.500 --> 00:28:05.490
australasiandarkskyalliance.org it's all

594
00:28:05.490 --> 00:28:08.370
one word, australasiandarkskyAlliance.org

595
00:28:08.370 --> 00:28:11.210
and you'll find a petition there and you can sign it if

596
00:28:11.210 --> 00:28:11.970
you're in Australia.

597
00:28:12.840 --> 00:28:15.820
Heidi Campo: And we'll make sure we have Huw, our producer, put it in the description, uh,

598
00:28:16.520 --> 00:28:19.360
so you can easily click on it too. And I know we

599
00:28:19.360 --> 00:28:21.880
try, you know, we try not to get political, but this is an important

600
00:28:21.960 --> 00:28:24.880
cause and you know, with being the, what

601
00:28:24.880 --> 00:28:27.480
are we, seventh, uh, most listened to

602
00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:30.680
astronomy podcast in the world. We're hoping this

603
00:28:30.680 --> 00:28:33.600
platform can help us get to the signatures. And if you're

604
00:28:33.600 --> 00:28:36.120
not in Australia and you feel

605
00:28:36.200 --> 00:28:38.960
compelled to help, uh, just share it on your social

606
00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:41.890
media platforms and then maybe your um,

607
00:28:41.960 --> 00:28:44.920
reach can help us expand this, this mission

608
00:28:44.920 --> 00:28:47.920
and just help us keep our skies dark

609
00:28:47.920 --> 00:28:50.840
and the stars shining and the vision

610
00:28:50.840 --> 00:28:53.710
of space and the space nuts,

611
00:28:53.710 --> 00:28:56.480
uh, being able to look up at the stars with

612
00:28:56.480 --> 00:28:59.400
our naked eye for the future.

613
00:29:01.000 --> 00:29:04.000
Professor Fred Watson: Sounds great. You're a good advocate for Dark skies. Heidi,

614
00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:05.080
thank you for those words.

615
00:29:05.880 --> 00:29:08.560
Heidi Campo: Well, you know, that's why I'm a space

616
00:29:08.560 --> 00:29:11.520
nut. I think every single one

617
00:29:11.520 --> 00:29:14.460
of us who's in this industry, you know, you grow up

618
00:29:14.460 --> 00:29:17.210
and maybe you're with a beloved relative, uh,

619
00:29:17.780 --> 00:29:20.660
or a friend, and you're looking up at the sky. And then your

620
00:29:20.660 --> 00:29:23.620
first camping trip where you really get out there

621
00:29:23.860 --> 00:29:26.860
and you're looking up and you see the Milky Way for the

622
00:29:26.860 --> 00:29:29.860
first time, it's burned in everyone's memory. I mean,

623
00:29:29.860 --> 00:29:32.580
all of you listening to this, you guys know how

624
00:29:33.060 --> 00:29:36.060
awe inspiring that feeling is, and we really

625
00:29:36.060 --> 00:29:38.820
do want to protect that. It's.

626
00:29:39.810 --> 00:29:42.530
I think it's something that it's almost

627
00:29:42.770 --> 00:29:45.570
part of being a human, because there's no

628
00:29:45.570 --> 00:29:48.530
other animal that looks up and admires the sky like

629
00:29:49.650 --> 00:29:52.570
we do. I mean, we really are meant

630
00:29:52.570 --> 00:29:53.650
for the stars, I think.

631
00:29:54.850 --> 00:29:57.370
Professor Fred Watson: Came from the stars and meant for the stars.

632
00:29:57.370 --> 00:29:57.970
Absolutely.

633
00:29:59.010 --> 00:30:01.530
Heidi Campo: And that's it for me, being an absolute

634
00:30:01.530 --> 00:30:04.210
cheeseball. Um, you guys,

635
00:30:04.610 --> 00:30:07.610
we'll see if we get Andrew back next week, because we'll

636
00:30:07.610 --> 00:30:10.050
go from just me being a cheese ball to

637
00:30:10.370 --> 00:30:13.070
Andrew with his dad jokes. But,

638
00:30:13.310 --> 00:30:16.150
um, if you guys don't have me back on next week, I

639
00:30:16.150 --> 00:30:18.990
have really enjoyed being, um, your

640
00:30:19.070 --> 00:30:22.030
host. Host for this summer. Um, you know, I always

641
00:30:22.030 --> 00:30:24.990
joke it's summer for me. I'm in Houston, Texas, Space City. And

642
00:30:24.990 --> 00:30:27.950
Fred's in Australia, so it's winter for him. It's

643
00:30:28.030 --> 00:30:31.030
nighttime for me right now and daytime for you. So it's

644
00:30:31.030 --> 00:30:34.030
a fun little global adventure. So I just want to

645
00:30:34.030 --> 00:30:36.950
say thank you to all of our listeners for having me on, and

646
00:30:36.950 --> 00:30:39.940
Fred has been a pleasure, and I will see

647
00:30:39.940 --> 00:30:42.900
you again very soon for our Q

648
00:30:42.900 --> 00:30:44.020
and A episode.

649
00:30:44.820 --> 00:30:45.460
Professor Fred Watson: Can't wait.

650
00:30:45.460 --> 00:30:46.100
Heidi.

651
00:30:47.140 --> 00:30:49.940
Andrew Dunkley: Hello, Huw. Thought I'd say your name first today.

652
00:30:50.020 --> 00:30:52.980
Heidi. Fred, it's Andrew here reporting from

653
00:30:53.460 --> 00:30:56.220
New York City, just near Times

654
00:30:56.220 --> 00:30:58.580
Square. Since I spoke to you last, we visited

655
00:30:58.580 --> 00:31:01.300
Halifax in Canada, and

656
00:31:01.540 --> 00:31:04.470
we did a trip out to Peggy's

657
00:31:04.470 --> 00:31:07.470
Cove, which is a lovely little village out on the

658
00:31:07.470 --> 00:31:10.470
granite outcrop there with probably one of the most famous

659
00:31:10.470 --> 00:31:13.440
lighthouses in the world, which, uh, uh,

660
00:31:13.710 --> 00:31:16.670
was just adorable. And, uh, then we had a look

661
00:31:16.670 --> 00:31:19.390
around Halifax itself before getting back on board and

662
00:31:19.390 --> 00:31:22.390
traveling to New York City. We got off and

663
00:31:22.390 --> 00:31:25.310
have spent the last two days in New York looking around.

664
00:31:26.030 --> 00:31:28.270
We, uh, went to the 9, uh,

665
00:31:28.750 --> 00:31:31.520
11 memorial. We wanted to do that in 2012,

666
00:31:31.520 --> 00:31:34.480
but we couldn't, uh, get in because the security was too tight

667
00:31:34.480 --> 00:31:37.280
and we didn't have our passports. But this time we did.

668
00:31:37.280 --> 00:31:39.880
And, uh, wow. Yeah, very

669
00:31:39.880 --> 00:31:42.800
sobering, I think would be the best way to describe it. And the

670
00:31:42.800 --> 00:31:45.360
museum is incredible. Built on the

671
00:31:45.360 --> 00:31:48.120
foundations of the old Twin towers. You can still

672
00:31:48.120 --> 00:31:50.520
actually see the footings and the

673
00:31:50.920 --> 00:31:53.890
slurry wall that keeps the Hudson river out, uh,

674
00:31:53.890 --> 00:31:56.550
which didn't actually fail when that, uh,

675
00:31:56.550 --> 00:31:59.420
building collapsed. Just, um.

676
00:31:59.420 --> 00:32:02.210
Yeah, um, very,

677
00:32:02.210 --> 00:32:04.130
very sobering is all I can say. We

678
00:32:05.410 --> 00:32:08.210
felt very sad

679
00:32:08.210 --> 00:32:11.170
most of the time walking through there. Uh, I think the

680
00:32:11.170 --> 00:32:13.570
most, um, telling moment was when the,

681
00:32:13.620 --> 00:32:16.530
um, you went through a

682
00:32:16.530 --> 00:32:19.090
part of the museum and they played 911 calls and

683
00:32:19.490 --> 00:32:22.420
messages that people were sending to their loved ones. And

684
00:32:22.420 --> 00:32:25.260
yeah, that just hits you in the face. And then we did

685
00:32:25.420 --> 00:32:28.420
a walking tour. Uh, and did. We did everything.

686
00:32:28.420 --> 00:32:31.020
We went out to Liberty Ellis island,

687
00:32:31.420 --> 00:32:34.220
we, um, went, uh, uh, over the

688
00:32:34.220 --> 00:32:37.180
Brooklyn Bridge, we walked across it, we went to Chelsea Market,

689
00:32:37.260 --> 00:32:40.260
we went to the Rockefeller center, and we finished

690
00:32:40.260 --> 00:32:42.780
the day off with a, um,

691
00:32:43.420 --> 00:32:46.030
trip, ah, out to Yankee Stadium. And we're watch the

692
00:32:46.030 --> 00:32:48.910
baseball where the Boston Red Sox beat

693
00:32:48.910 --> 00:32:51.710
the Yankees 6 3. So there was a hell of a lot of

694
00:32:51.710 --> 00:32:54.710
booing. And I got to tell you this, on the train coming back, there was

695
00:32:54.710 --> 00:32:57.430
a street performer who wanted to do a backflip and

696
00:32:57.430 --> 00:33:00.310
no one was interested. We were all too tired. Anyway,

697
00:33:00.550 --> 00:33:03.470
he did his backflip and then he abused us because no

698
00:33:03.470 --> 00:33:06.070
one had tip him. Oh, it was

699
00:33:06.070 --> 00:33:08.470
funny. So funny. Oh, and they were giving away,

700
00:33:08.840 --> 00:33:11.820
um, bobblehead dolls at the base the of ball because it

701
00:33:11.820 --> 00:33:14.460
was Seinfeld night and they were George

702
00:33:14.460 --> 00:33:17.180
Costanza bobbleheads. And we, we were

703
00:33:17.180 --> 00:33:20.140
handed these as we walked in. We didn't know what to do with them. So

704
00:33:20.140 --> 00:33:23.140
we're walking along and people came up and offered us money. We walked

705
00:33:23.140 --> 00:33:25.980
away with 80 bucks. So I

706
00:33:25.980 --> 00:33:28.860
love New York. It's such a weird

707
00:33:28.860 --> 00:33:31.590
and wonderful place. Anyway, that's where we are. Uh,

708
00:33:31.660 --> 00:33:34.380
today. We're heading off for Washington D.C.

709
00:33:34.540 --> 00:33:37.470
and then up to Niagara Falls and then to

710
00:33:37.470 --> 00:33:40.350
Boston. Uh, but I'll be home by the time the

711
00:33:40.350 --> 00:33:43.110
next report's due, so this would probably

712
00:33:43.190 --> 00:33:46.030
be my last. And once we get

713
00:33:46.030 --> 00:33:48.870
settled in our new home and we get the Internet on, uh, I

714
00:33:48.870 --> 00:33:51.270
might make a comeback on the show. Unless

715
00:33:51.270 --> 00:33:54.070
Heidi's done such a great job, they're going to kick me to the

716
00:33:54.070 --> 00:33:56.990
curb. Either way, we'll see

717
00:33:56.990 --> 00:33:59.910
you real soon. That's it from me. Hope you've enjoyed

718
00:33:59.910 --> 00:34:02.800
my holiday as much as I have, but bye. Bye.

719
00:34:03.440 --> 00:34:03.550
Uh,

720
00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:06.800
Generic: You've been listening to the Space Nuts podcast,

721
00:34:08.320 --> 00:34:11.120
available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

722
00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:14.040
iHeartRadio or your favorite podcast

723
00:34:14.040 --> 00:34:15.760
player. You can also stream on

724
00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:18.519
demand at bitesz.com This has been

725
00:34:18.519 --> 00:34:20.800
another quality podcast production from

726
00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:22.000
bitesz.com