Cosmic Questions, Red Dwarfs & the Search for Life Beyond Earth

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Heidi Campo: Welcome back to another Q and A session of

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Space Nuts. I'm your host for this

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American summer, an Australian winter,

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Heidi Campo. And joining us today to

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answer all of your questions is Professor Fred

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Watson, astronomer at large.

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Generic: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal.

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10, 9. Ignition

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sequence start. Space nets 5, 4,

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3, 2, 1. 2, 3, 4, 5, 5,

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4, 3, 2', 1. Space nuts

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astronauts report it feels.

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Heidi Campo: Fred, how are you doing?

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Professor Fred Watson: Oh, pretty well, thanks Heidi. Nearly as well as

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I was the last time I saw you.

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Heidi Campo: Oh, inside jokes. For those of you regular

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listeners, you know what's going on.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. Because you were

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a bit under the weather before.

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Heidi Campo: I, I am. So if you guys hear my voice sounds a

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little bit scratchy, I apologize. I was doing some

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traveling recently and I was probably picked up a

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little germ at the airport. But that's I, I,

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I'll be okay. I think I'll survive this time.

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Professor Fred Watson: Hopefully.

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Heidi Campo: Hopefully. Yeah, I don't know. I guess you never know. Could

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be, could be. didn't like you think

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about those crazy cases where it's like didn't Bob, Bob

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Marley died from skin cancer and it's like, I guess you really never know.

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Professor Fred Watson: That's true.

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Heidi Campo: Well, hey, here's something that hopefully you can

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answer for us, Fred.

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Rennie from S.A. sunny West

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Hills, CA asks

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theoretically, if an observer

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scientist outside our universe was able to

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look into our universe, would that

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observers re research on light

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speed and other phenomenon match our

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scientists findings?

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Professor Fred Watson: It's a great question, Rennie. Rennie's one

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of our regular questioners and always asks the

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provocative ones. I like it very much

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so.

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Professor Fred Watson: We'Ve got to envisage an observer that's in

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some other universe where the light

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speed and other, you know, other

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fundamental quantities, speed

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of light, mass of the electron, things like that, they might be

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quite different. so you would

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have to basically

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think outside the box. We're talking now about the

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biggest boxes that could exist. If we're talking about

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separate universes, you'd have to

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look into our universe and use yardsticks that

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were basically part and parcel of

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our universe in order to measure those

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fundamental quantities. So

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you'd need to have a way of determining distance,

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and that way you could perhaps use

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a way of determining time to determine the

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speed of light. you might well be able to

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determine that the speed of light in our universe was different

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from the speed of light in your universe, which will be a very

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interesting property. and it's actually

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one of the reasons why People speculate,

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Heidi, that, there might be other universes. The

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fact that those physical parameters in our own

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universe are so well suited

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to, the formation of stars,

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galaxies, planets,

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stability that, would allow

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molecules to be created that could eventually

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turn into living organisms. One of the reasons

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astronomers think there might be other universes is

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because those properties of our own universe

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are so well tuned to life that maybe there are

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other universes where that is not the case.

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And so if you were standing in one of those universes and looking back

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at our own, you might well say, well, that's

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ridiculous. The speed of light, there's only 300,000 kilometers

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per second. It's much faster than that here.

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So, you know, you could be looking at different parameters. So I think,

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Rennie, it's an interesting thought experiment

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and, thank you very much for the question.

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Heidi Campo: It's very, interstellar when he goes into the

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dimension where they're looking through a different

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plane.

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Our next question is from Dean, and

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Dean says, I believe you all

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had mentioned previously that in a,

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protoplanetary disk, heavier

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elements reside closer to the star,

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which is the reason the interior planets of our

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system are, quote, rocky. The

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protostar is too hot for volatile

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materials to become solid, and the solar

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wind blows the lighter elements away. My

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question was Earth in

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a belt of protoplanetary disk

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where liquid or water orbited? Could such

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a belt exist in protoplanetary disk?

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Professor Fred Watson: yeah. It is another great

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question. And I suppose what Dean is

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saying is, is there

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a Goldilocks zone in the protoplanetary disk?

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because the protoplanetary disk is

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where the planets were formed. and

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yes, the temperature of material in that disk

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will vary. It'll be much hotter near the star itself

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and much colder outside. And

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we do see, just in the way the

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planets of our solar system are distributed, with the four rocky

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ones internally and then the four,

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gaseous ones and icy ones further out,

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we see that effect of,

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the Goldilocks zone. So Mars

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sits just within the sun's

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ice. what's it called? The ice

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limit? Can't remember.

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Anyway, it's something like that. It's

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where, water ceases to be a vapor

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and becomes ice. so

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beyond the orbit of Mars,

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things, things basically freeze.

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if, if, if you've got water vapor. and

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that is thought to be why the gas giants

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grew so big, the four gas giants,

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because, the fact that their water is

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actually the commonest two element molecule in the whole

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universe. so if the water

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vapor becomes something solid, beyond

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that that ice limit, then, then

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you're going to get the collection

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of much more mass in

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a planet that's being built by this process of

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accretion. so because the water is now in

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a solid form, you can build a much bigger planetary

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core. and that is why you

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can then get something big enough that it actually hangs onto the

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gases surrounding it and you've got a gas giant.

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So that's the picture that we imagine is

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the way planets form. So

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just turning to Dean's question. Was Earth in a

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belt of the protoplanetary disk where liquid water

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orbited? it wouldn't have been liquid because

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you can't have liquid in a

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vacuum. but you can get water

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molecules in vapor form

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basically or in the form of ice.

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And yes, there would have been a step there I think in the

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protoplanetary disk where the ice

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solidified, where you've got solid ice. so

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I think that's a really good question and I

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believe I've seen some

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papers recently, which suggest that

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we are actually observing that in fact, very

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recently, I think it might even have been last week, Heidi, there

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was a paper that reported the detection

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of ice in a protoplanetary disk.

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so that's one to check out. it's yeah,

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it's there and in the inner regions it's

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probably too warm for it to exist as a

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solid material.

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Heidi Campo: So Dean's, Dean's onto something. We get a lot

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of really smart people who follow along this show too.

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Now back to the show.

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Generic: Three, two, one.

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Space Nuts.

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Heidi Campo: Our next question comes from Ron. And he

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says hello from upstate New York. Ron. That is

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where my husband is from. I wonder if you're from the Catskills

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area. Beautiful place, if any of you guys ever get to

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visit.

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Generic: Hello.

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Heidi Campo: Ron says hello from upstate New York. I was

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wondering, with the extreme lifetime of red

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dwarf stars being one of the

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order of trillions of years, could there be any

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population of, I think that says of

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population three. Sorry, Population three red dwarf

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stars. Maybe I should ask first, do we think

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red dwarf stars were formed right after the Big

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Bang to be a part of the population 3 stars?

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Thank you for considering my question and

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always informative podcast from Ron.

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Professor Fred Watson: Thanks, Ron. and greetings to upstate New

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York. yeah, that's another.

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They're all great questions that we count space

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nuts. and it's a very

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intelligent one as well. And just to sort of give the

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backstory of this Population three stars,

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and it's usually written as a Roman three

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stars. They're what we think of as being

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the first stars to form in the

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universe back probably within the

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first 2 or 300 million years of the Big

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Bang, which we believe happened 13.8 billion

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years ago. so we.

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What would signify a population three star? It would be

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a star, whose spectrum, when you

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analyze its light, reveals only the

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presence of hydrogen and helium, because they were the

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elements that were predominantly produced in the Big Bang. There were

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a few other things produced in very, very small

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quantities, like

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lithium, but really it was mostly

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hydrogen and helium that were produced in the Big Bang.

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And so population 3 stars will be stars that

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only show the signatures of those

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chemical elements in their spectrum. We

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haven't actually found any yet. We found some that look

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very nearly like Population 3 stars, but they still

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have a little trace of iron in them, the ones that have been found,

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and iron is formed, in the

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interior of stars. And so you know that anything that

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shows up iron is not the first generation of stars

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ever to exist because other stars have been there

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first, and have formed the iron. So

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population three stars are a bit of a holy grail, actually.

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Trying to find Them, I've worked with, people

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here in Australia whose sole scientific

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mission has been to find population, three stars. And they've come

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pretty near it with these very early, what we call

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metal pore stars. Metals, unlike

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the way we think of metals in everyday life,

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things that contribute steel and brass and

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stuff like that, metals are anything other than hydrogen and

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helium. To an astronomer it's a very curious

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expression. so metal poor stars are ones

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that don't have much of anything other than hydrogen, helium.

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So the cutting to the nub of

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Ron's question though, we think the very

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first generations of stars to form

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in the universe were not, were

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not red dwarfs. we don't think they were dwarf

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stars at all. We think they were

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very massive stars, perhaps 20,

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maybe even up to 100 times the mass of the sun,

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that had very short lives, and

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exploded, you know, within perhaps less than a

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million years. Such a short life that,

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remember our sun is four, and a half

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billion years old and it's in its sort of middle age,

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midlife, not a crisis, but a midlife term.

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So red dwarfs probably did not form in the early

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universe. And in any case, what

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categorizes a red dwarf star, is

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actually the fact that

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it has seen many generations of

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stars before it because they're rich

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in all kinds of different chemical elements,

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not just hydrogen and helium. they are

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basically, you know, cool

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stars, which show the characteristic

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signatures of all sorts of things, even molecules.

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I think some molecules. Molecules don't usually exist in

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stars because they get torn apart. The atoms get torn apart by

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the heat. But I think red dwarf stars have some

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molecular signatures as well. so the answer

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is, I think no. red dwarf stars weren't formed right

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after the Big Bang. And there probably aren't

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any population three red dwarf stars. But you're absolutely right

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that the lifetime of red dwarf stars is very, very long.

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Maybe, up to trillions of years as you've suggested. Ron,

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thanks very much for the question.

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Heidi Campo: Very interesting, very interesting indeed.

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Andrew Dunkley: Okay, we checked all four systems.

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Professor Fred Watson: Space nets.

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Heidi Campo: Our very last question is another

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great question from Jake Johnston.

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He says. Hey, space nuts, quick question.

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While it is totally possible that there is no

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life in our solar system except for on Earth, if

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you had to guess where the most likely

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other place in our solar system is to find

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either current or ancient life,

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what would you choose? Titan. Mars.

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Thanks.

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Professor Fred Watson: let's give you a shot at this one, Heidi. What do you think the answer to

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that would be?

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Heidi Campo: Oh, you know, I was actually thinking in my head of playing a joke

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and just saying some random planet and then going, oh,

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oops, he must have meant this for you.

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I don't know. I really think that

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it's gonna, for some

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reason I think there's probably something on a moon

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somewhere because

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I'm just imagining

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primordial solar system, everything's

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crashing into each other and when

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it, when that matter ends up on a

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planet it's getting churned through its

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core and getting heated up and everything that

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maybe existed, even bacteria, is just getting cooked and

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destroyed. But on a moon it's not getting

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that turnover. So I would assume,

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and this is with my background not in this at all, I would

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assume that we would find something on a moon.

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Professor Fred Watson: I think you're right actually. so I

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guess the most obvious

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places to look, first of all Mars,

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Mars we know has been warm and wet

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in the past. we know that it was warm and wet at a time

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when the first living organisms were forming on Earth.

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So if all you need is the right atmospheric conditions

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while they were there on Mars. And so

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Mars may show signs of ancient

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microbial life. Unfortunately we don't at the moment have the

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wherewithal to find it. We've got samples

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of rocks and soil that have been taken by the

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Perseverance rover on Mars which are stashed away for a

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future mission to go and collect them. Sadly

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that mission is a bit in doubt at the moment because it's

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turned out to be very expensive. but there may be evidence

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on Mars. but you're

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absolutely right that some of the moons of the solar

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system are perhaps the next on the list

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because first of all, and this is the

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one that's really the poster child of looking for life on moons

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in the solar system is Europa.

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Europa, one of Jupiter's moons, which we

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know has a rocky core, it's got a liquid water

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ocean over that core, and that is

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sealed in by a layer of solid ice on top of

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it. And we have seen evidence of

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geysers of ice,

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crystals coming through that

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layer of ice because of cracks in it.

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there is evidence as well that there are

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quite complex carbon containing molecules,

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on the surface of Europa got a

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reddish brown colour which looks as though

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it's the effect of sunlight

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and solar radiation on these carbon containing molecules.

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So the ingredients for life might very well be there.

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likewise, further out in the solar system,

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Enceladus, Saturn's moon which was explored

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by Cassini, that definitely has these geysers of

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ice crystals because we've seen them and in fact Cassini

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flew through them and measured some of the contents,

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of them. in terms of it's mostly water

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ice, but there's also molecular hydrogen and some other

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really interesting ingredients that suggest that there are

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geothermal vents down at the bottom of

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Enceladus oceans. Maybe that is where

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life could have kicked off. We think life might have

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kicked off on Earth down in hydrothermal vents, maybe

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on Enceladus too. And you know, Dean

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mentions also Titan. I, beg your

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pardon, Jake. I'm sorry, Jake, the wrong name

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there. Jake also mentions Titan, which

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is another of these ice worlds with the same sort of

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structure and a liquid ocean, but it's also got

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these lakes of methane and ethane, natural

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liquefied natural gas. The only

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place we know anywhere in the universe other than

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Earth where there's liquid in equilibrium

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with an atmosphere. And Titan has a thick

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atmosphere, mostly carbon dioxide, but hydrocarbons in there

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as well. So these are all great

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candidates for living organisms. and if I had

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to pick one, let's go with Titan

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because I think you get two shots at it there. There might

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be water, based life in the oceans

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underneath the surface, but there might also be carbon,

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some weird carbon based life in the

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liquid, natural gas, lakes and seas on

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Titan. And we might find that when the Dragonfly

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spacecraft visits Titan later, in.

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Heidi Campo: The decade, these are

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all very exciting.

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I mean there is just so much happening in space

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right now. Every single week we are closer

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and closer to new breakthroughs and new

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discoveries. and I'll even share a program

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that I'm a part of that anybody who is a

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high school, or like if you're in high school,

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if you're doing your undergrad graduate or early career

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professional, you can join this too. It's called the L

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space, so l apostrophe space

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program. And it is a competitive proposal

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writing program where they select

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different individuals. So you can apply. I'm in the summer program right

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now, but you can apply for the fall program. But all of

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us got put into different interdisciplinary teams

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and we are going to be coming up with a

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proposal that is going to address one of

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NASA's gaps. And they have a whole

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training on how to write proposals the way NASA wants

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them written and the taxonomy of everything they're looking

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for. And the gaps that need to get filled. But the

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cool thing is, is that, the proposals

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that we come up with, one, of them will be selected as the

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winner. And the winner will get thousands of dollars of

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grant money and it will probably go on to become a

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real project. So if you are

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an engineer, even a high school or early

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career professional or anyone in between who

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feels like you have a lot of good ideas for discovering

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00:20:31.373 --> 00:20:34.253
these kinds of things, like I've been co hosting

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now for a while and I've seen how smart you guys are.

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So I would really encourage you to all get involved

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and use your, creativity to help

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push humanity forward into the stars.

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Because every single one of you has something to add.

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And never, ever, ever let imposter syndrome get in the way of

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that. Because every creative mind

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add something to all of this. And that's my,

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that's my rah rah for this week.

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Professor Fred Watson: Remind us again what the program's called.

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Heidi Campo: It's L Space. So it's an L

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apostrophe and then S, P, A, C, E.

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And the program that I'm in, they have several different programs.

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So I'm in the, proposal writing.

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So np, W, E, E.

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00:21:15.983 --> 00:21:18.703
NASA Proposal writing Experience.

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Something, something, something, something. It's.

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They love, they love acronyms.

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They just. They, But yeah, L, Space. and you can look

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that up. I can probably send the link to that

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to you guys to post, in the

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link and the description of this episode if anybody is

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interested in adding to

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their contributions into space.

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Professor Fred Watson: Fantastic. great program. and

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I look forward to checking out on the Web.

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Heidi Campo: On the Web, absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Fred. This

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has been another wonderful Q A

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session of Space Nuts. We'll catch you.

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Professor Fred Watson: Thank you.

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Heidi Campo: We'll catch you all next week. Bye for now.

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Generic: You've been listening to the Space Nuts podcast,

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00:22:05.823 --> 00:22:08.623
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00:22:14.493 --> 00:22:17.493
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