Cosmic Chronicles: UFOs, Galactic Archaeology & the Mystery of the Zombie Satellite

WEBVTT

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Heidi Campo: Welcome back to another episode of Space

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Nut. I am your host for this season,

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Heidi Campo. And joining us is

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professor Fred Watson, astronomer at large.

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Generic: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal.

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10, 9. Ignition

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sequence. Star space nuts. 5, 4, 3,

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2. 1. 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 4,

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3, 2, 1. Space nuts.

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Astronauts report. It feels good.

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Heidi Campo: Fred, did you know that today

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is world UFO Day?

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Professor Fred Watson: Oh, um, no, I didn't.

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I've got a feeling I saw something about that and then, um,

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it moved on.

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Heidi Campo: Um, how do you know? So I'm trying to fill in

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for our normal host, Andrew Dunkley. And

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he loves his dad joke, so I figured I'd need to bump up the dad

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joke. So, Fred, how do you know if you

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are talking to an extraterrestrial?

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Professor Fred Watson: Um, because their lips

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don't move.

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Heidi Campo: Well, you need to ask them probing questions.

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Professor Fred Watson: I love that. Yes, I like that very much.

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Heidi Campo: It was not original. My Alex Zaharov-Reutt told me that

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whole spiel this morning. I thought that was too good not to share

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with you guys.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, it's a good one. Um,

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a very probing answer as well.

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Heidi Campo: Well, how are you today? Are you excited?

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Professor Fred Watson: Um, well, look, I go through my life in a state

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of permanent excitement. Um, Heidi. And

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who, who wouldn't be? When we're mixed up with all this fabulous

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news coming from space. Astronomy, physics,

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biology, it's. We're being bombarded by all

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these marvelous discoveries. And, um, that, uh,

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certainly for me is very exciting.

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And, um, the annoying thing for me

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is that I'm at the sort of end of my

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career. That means that a lot

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of the things I want to know the answers to

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may be beyond my horizon.

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And that's really, uh, irritating. Um,

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but that's okay. I mean, I'm thinking of things

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like. And this might be beyond many people's horizon. For

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example, um, the plans to build a new,

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uh, future circular collider, as it's called, uh,

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by the cern. The, um, nuclear research

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center, uh, on the French Swiss border. They're planning

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this machine which will switch on in

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2070. And, um, you

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know, we're going to discover wonderful things from it.

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2070 is above many people, beyond many people's

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horizon. Certainly beyond mine.

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Heidi Campo: Yeah, there's some existentialism in the first three minutes

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of the episode today.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, there you go. So. Yes, that's right. Um,

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um, so for all you space nuts out

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there, don't worry, you'll all. You'll

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all hear the answers to many of the questions that you want to know

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about, like dark matter, dark energy,

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is there life elsewhere? All these Questions are

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probably within your horizon, but maybe not mine.

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Heidi Campo: Maybe one, uh, of these days, I know we had,

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uh, some, some kids, um, come in with some

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questions on some of the Q and A episodes. Maybe one day, when they're the

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hosts, these things will be discovered.

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Professor Fred Watson: Exactly. That's right. That's the thing to look forward to.

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It's not, it's, it's existential stuff,

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but it's good new stuff as well. Because, you

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know, science is one of those things that just keeps on moving and we keep

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on learning new things and who knows what we might discover that

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will transform our understanding, uh, of the

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universe. I think that's the end of the show, isn't it today,

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Heidi? I think we've covered everything there.

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Heidi Campo: Oh, well, today is a great one and here's my segue.

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We're going to just jump right into introducing all of our

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articles. We have history, we have

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mystery, and we have discovery.

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We are really covering the full

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spectrum of space science today.

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And our history article today is

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touching on a,

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basically a James Webb discovery of

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how the Milky Way,

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um, was kind of formed. Is that

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about right, Fred?

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Professor Fred Watson: Yep, right on the money there, Heidi. Uh,

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and it's, this is actually a topic

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that's close to my heart because

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I've been involved with research very like this.

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Um, so what uh, the

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Webb Telescope is doing is looking at what we call

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cosmic archaeology, which uh, is trying to

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understand basically

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the evolution of galaxies, the detailed evolution

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of galaxies. Uh, but it relates to

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um, something that has been very actively

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pursued in the last 20 years or so. A topic

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that we call galactic archaeology. And that's

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understanding how our own galaxy came

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to be put together. Uh, and uh,

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that topic has led to some quite significant

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discoveries. The people I've worked with have made some of these

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discoveries. Uh, uh, we've

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been working on a project called galah. Galah

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is, uh, an Australian bird, a very

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well known, um, species of Australian bird.

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G A L A H. Galah stands for

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galactic archeology with Hermes. Hermes

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being the instrument that we used to do this. Uh,

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so I was um, very much on the observational side of this

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project, but worked with people who discovered some of the

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fundamental properties of our galaxy. And

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that relates directly to the story that we've got

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coming from the James Webb Telescope. Because one of the discoveries that my

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colleagues made was that the disk of our

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galaxy, uh, ah, and remember our

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galaxy is this flattened spiral of stars and

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gas and dust and dark matter, um, which

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ah, basically is disk shaped. And we

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see that when we See the Milky Way, we're looking the thickness of the

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disk. We've known for a long time, more than

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100 years, that there is another component to the

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galaxy, and that's what we call the halo. Uh, this is a

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spherical region of, um,

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stars and what we call globular

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clusters. These, uh, very

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dense clusters of stars that surrounds the disk of the

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galaxy. But the people I worked with

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made a discovery that there is another component,

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and that is that the disk is not just a single

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item. It has two parts to it,

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which maybe not surprisingly, are called the

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thin disk and the thick disk, um,

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because one's thin and one's thick, and they're two different

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sort of populations, uh, of stars. So the thin

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disk really is what we see when we look at the Milky Way.

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But there is a more rarefied population

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of stars that make up a thicker disk. And they've got different

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dynamical characteristics. That's to say they move in different

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ways. So that's the segue to this

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story from the James Webb Telescope, because people are now

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looking at, uh, other galaxies beyond

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our own to see if the thin and thick

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disks can be detected. Uh, I mean, it's

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taken us, you know, centuries, I guess, to work

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out that the disk of our galaxy was in

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two components. Let's

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now move outwards and look at other galaxies

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to see whether they are the same and to

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see how that informs our own understanding

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of the evol of our own galaxy.

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So, um, the team of astronomers, uh, one of whom

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was based here in Australia, I'm glad to say, and that's

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actually the team leader, uh, that's, um, again

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carrying on this tradition of, uh,

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Australian involvement with the idea of thin and thick disks.

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So they've looked at, um, 100 galaxies,

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uh, up to 11 billion

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years ago. So we're talking now about very

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distant galaxies, uh, in the early universe.

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Uh, and basically look to see how

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the thin and thick disks, uh,

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appear in those galaxies. Um,

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in particular, uh, the question they want to

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ask is when you've got a galaxy forming and

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evolving, uh,

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what is the point at which that

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structure that we have in our own galaxy, that dual

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disk structure, what's the point at which that

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forms? And so what they've done is they've

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chosen galaxies. And this is

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kind of what you'd expect them to do. They've chosen

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galaxies that we see edge on. Um, and

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so that means that you're looking directly at

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the disk itself. It's edge onto you,

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uh, rather than face on. And that means

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that you've got a good chance of seeing the stars in the thick

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disk and the thin disk separated. And

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indeed that's what they have found. Um,

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and this is actually world leading research. It's

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the first time that astronomers have

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studied um, these two

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populations of stars in galaxies in the

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early universe. So the bottom line

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uh, of this story is that uh,

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it looks as though from the observations that have now been

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made of these hundred galaxies, uh,

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it looks as though the thick disk forms first.

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So what you get is initially is the thick disk,

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uh, and then the thin disk within it

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forms later on. Uh, and

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so that's new knowledge. That's something

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that we, we didn't um, you know, we didn't appreciate

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before. It's actually a very,

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very fine piece of research that feeds directly

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into our understanding of our own galaxy. Taking

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information from distant galaxies, uh, in the

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early universe. I was full of admiration for it.

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Heidi Campo: That's, that's amazing. So why do they think that is

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with the, with the thicker disc that they think is the

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more mature one, Are they seeing the,

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the clusters in a more

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um, un. Uniform spin then?

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So it seems like as, as they, as the,

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I don't know what the, as the discs get more mature,

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the clusters get more

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sporadic.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, that's right. It's the stars themselves that

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um, m. Define how these disks appear.

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And I think your point is right though because

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what we call the kinematics of the thick disk in our own galaxy,

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that's the way stars move in it. It's a lot more um,

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disorganized than the kinematics of the

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thin disk. The thin disk has very, very well

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behaved star motions in it. For example,

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the sun is in orbit around the galactic center. It's a

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very neat and tidy orbit. Takes about

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uh, 200 million years to go around once. Uh,

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so, uh, and all the stars in our

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neighborhood are doing the same sort of thing. But the thin disk

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is less well organized. It's got much higher

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uh, velocities outside the plane of the

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disk. So there's a sort of vertical component of the

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velocity of stars in the thick disks as well.

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And so you're right. It looks as though that older

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disk, um, uh,

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the thick disk being the first thing to form,

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uh, stars in it, eventually collapse

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towards a thin disk, um,

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uh, in response to the galactic pull of

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the whole galaxy. And perhaps uh, an

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analog with this is the rings of Saturn,

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which are a uh, very, very thin disk of

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material. Um, you probably know that rings of Saturn

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are about 250,000 kilometers in diameter

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and less than 100 meters thick. 100

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meters thick. So it's a

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blade of material in space. Um, and

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that is because of the gravitational forces that

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act on it from the planet Saturn itself. And

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so it looks as though something perhaps analogous to that

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happens in our galaxy that you eventually get

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the, um, stars in the disk shepherded into

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this quite thin region, uh, leaving behind

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remnants of perhaps an earlier phase, which is what we see

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as the thick disk.

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Heidi Campo: So the opposite of most people. When we age, we tend to get,

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uh, a little bit thicker.

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Professor Fred Watson: Nicely done. Very nicely done.

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Heidi Campo: Especially around the middle.

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Professor Fred Watson: Well, yes, that's right.

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Heidi Campo: Well, you know, we can't all be as beautiful as,

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um, Saturn with its beautiful, uh,

255
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discs.

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Space nuts.

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Um, but this next story

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is a mystery and that's kind of fun and exciting.

259
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So, you know, we just talked about our

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galaxy forming, but this next one is

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a little bit less straightforward than what

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you just explained. And I'm really excited to hear what

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you have to say because you have such a great way of taking something

264
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complicated and making it make sense to us.

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But tell us about this. Ah, the surprise in the

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desert.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, so. And it's, um. Again, this is

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relatively close to home. This is research that's being done

269
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here in Australia. Uh, and I think we've talked about it

270
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before, Heidi. Um, uh, a

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facility called the Square Kilometer Array

272
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Observatory. Skao, uh,

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uh, is, um, an international

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project. I think it's got seven, maybe eight

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nations involved in it now, uh,

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uh, with facilities in Australia,

277
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in South Africa and in the UK and the UK

278
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is just where the headquarters is. So our

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telescopes here in Australia.

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Um, there is. The Square Kilometer Array

281
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itself is being built. It will probably see

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fully, uh, first light, first radio signals,

283
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uh, in, um, something like five.

284
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Sorry, three to four years. Uh, but there is what's called

285
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a pathfinder, uh, um, and it rejoices

286
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in this marvelous name of ascap, uh, the

287
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Australian Square Kilometer Array Pathfinder. And

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that's, uh, used, um, very

289
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effectively for, um,

290
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finding many different sorts of objects in

291
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space. It has about 30 dishes, uh, in the

292
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Western Desert of Australia. Um, and in

293
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particular it's been really good, ah, finding

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these things called fast radio bursts,

295
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um, which my colleagues in the

296
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radio broadcasting business tell me should be pronounced fast

297
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radio burst because they're very fast.

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Heidi Campo: I don't know why that was so.

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Professor Fred Watson: Funny to me, anyway. Well,

300
00:14:27.600 --> 00:14:30.240
it's a bad name because really they're short radio

301
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bursts. Excuse me. They're, um,

302
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something like a millisecond long. And they're flashes of

303
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radio radiation which have now

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been recorded, uh, for something like a couple of

305
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decades. And so they've been very well studied.

306
00:14:44.550 --> 00:14:47.480
Um, and, um, we think they come from

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what are called magnetars. Uh, these are,

308
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uh, neutron stars, highly

309
00:14:52.120 --> 00:14:55.030
collapsed. Excuse me, highly collapsed

310
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stars which have very strong magnetic

311
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fields. And you get flares on these stars.

312
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Um, that's what we think fast radio bursts are

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caused by. But in making those

314
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measurements, this team of astronomers

315
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actually came across something that was a

316
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burst of radiation, uh, very bright,

317
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a bit like a fast radio burst. But

318
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rather than being, uh, you know, a

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thousandth of a second long or thereabouts, this

320
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was a few billionths of a second

321
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long. It was incredibly brief.

322
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Uh, so it actually, the pulse that they

323
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measured lasted for 30Ns, 30

324
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billionths of a second. And that's a

325
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mystery. Um, we have never seen anything

326
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like this before. So they were puzzled.

327
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Uh, it took them a year to try and work

328
00:15:46.510 --> 00:15:48.850
out what it is that we think we're seeing.

329
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Uh, and first of all, they had

330
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some hints, um, that it might be

331
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quite close by. Because in the

332
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radio telescope world, there's a phenomenon called

333
00:16:00.770 --> 00:16:03.010
dispersion. If you have a pulse of radiation,

334
00:16:03.690 --> 00:16:06.410
um, the higher frequencies get to you before the lower

335
00:16:06.410 --> 00:16:08.730
frequencies. That's the phenomenon of

336
00:16:08.730 --> 00:16:11.650
dispersion. And so, uh, that,

337
00:16:12.050 --> 00:16:14.960
um, uh, is something that you

338
00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:17.440
look for as a kind of indicator of distance.

339
00:16:17.760 --> 00:16:20.640
Now, this particular 10, uh, sorry, 30

340
00:16:21.040 --> 00:16:23.760
nanosecond pulse didn't show

341
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that dispersion phenomenon. And that tells

342
00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:29.640
you that it's coming from relatively

343
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nearby rather than deep in the universe,

344
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unlike the other things. And in fact, they could

345
00:16:35.840 --> 00:16:38.160
also see that it was out of focus.

346
00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:41.840
It had blurriness in the image. And so

347
00:16:41.840 --> 00:16:44.710
that let them put a, an estimate of distance on

348
00:16:44.710 --> 00:16:47.670
it. And rather than it being several billion light

349
00:16:47.670 --> 00:16:50.470
years away, like most of the fast radio bursts are, the

350
00:16:50.470 --> 00:16:52.830
distance they got for this was 4,500

351
00:16:52.830 --> 00:16:55.310
kilometers. Uh, what's that? That's about

352
00:16:55.310 --> 00:16:57.910
3,000 miles. Um, so

353
00:16:57.910 --> 00:17:00.670
that's, uh, rather nearby, which

354
00:17:00.670 --> 00:17:03.480
tells you, uh, it is probably, uh,

355
00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:06.470
coming from a satellite. And so they worked

356
00:17:06.470 --> 00:17:08.590
out from the direction that they'd seen it in,

357
00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:11.880
uh, what satellite it might be. And they

358
00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:14.440
identified one. And it's a satellite

359
00:17:14.520 --> 00:17:17.240
called Relay 2 that was

360
00:17:17.240 --> 00:17:19.480
launched in 1964,

361
00:17:20.040 --> 00:17:21.400
and it was one of the first

362
00:17:22.520 --> 00:17:25.160
telecommunications satellites. Now, by

363
00:17:25.160 --> 00:17:28.080
1967, the whole thing had switched off. It was just

364
00:17:28.080 --> 00:17:31.040
a defunct piece of space junk. Um, so

365
00:17:31.040 --> 00:17:33.960
this satellite, Relay 2, has not done

366
00:17:33.960 --> 00:17:36.910
anything for, um, well, 60

367
00:17:36.910 --> 00:17:39.310
years, nearly 60 years.

368
00:17:39.930 --> 00:17:42.870
Uh, and so it's a real puzzle

369
00:17:42.870 --> 00:17:45.310
as to why a dead satellite

370
00:17:45.710 --> 00:17:48.590
should suddenly produce a

371
00:17:48.590 --> 00:17:51.550
flash of radiation that's a billionth of a

372
00:17:51.550 --> 00:17:54.220
second or 30 billionths of a second long, um,

373
00:17:54.670 --> 00:17:57.510
and be incredibly bright. And I think the

374
00:17:57.510 --> 00:17:59.950
only thing that the team has been able to

375
00:18:00.670 --> 00:18:03.590
come up with, uh, and they're saying they think this is the

376
00:18:03.590 --> 00:18:06.270
most likely cause, uh, is an

377
00:18:06.270 --> 00:18:08.890
electrostatic discharge. Um,

378
00:18:09.150 --> 00:18:12.150
and we're all familiar with those. When you've got very dry

379
00:18:12.150 --> 00:18:15.030
weather, uh, sometimes your clothes, as

380
00:18:15.030 --> 00:18:18.030
you take them off, if you've got synthetic

381
00:18:18.030 --> 00:18:20.950
fabrics in your clothes, they rub against your skin, they

382
00:18:20.950 --> 00:18:23.910
cause a buildup of static electricity, and you get

383
00:18:23.910 --> 00:18:26.750
a little spark once in a while. You can actually

384
00:18:26.750 --> 00:18:29.600
see those. If you're in a dark room, take. Take your jacket off,

385
00:18:29.600 --> 00:18:32.520
your shirt off, and you suddenly see flashes all around you.

386
00:18:32.760 --> 00:18:35.200
Heidi Campo: Here's a. Here's a cute little story about static

387
00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:38.200
electricity. Every morning my dog. My dog sleeps in the bed with

388
00:18:38.200 --> 00:18:41.120
me. And every morning he sleeps down by my feet. Every morning

389
00:18:41.120 --> 00:18:44.080
he kind of scoots slowly across the bed. And he doesn't

390
00:18:44.080 --> 00:18:46.800
understand physics. He

391
00:18:46.800 --> 00:18:49.560
doesn't understand that it's the slow scoot

392
00:18:49.560 --> 00:18:52.360
towards me that's building up that static electricity.

393
00:18:52.760 --> 00:18:55.720
And he, he goes and he gives you a little kiss on the cheek every morning.

394
00:18:55.720 --> 00:18:58.200
And he always gets that shock right on his nose.

395
00:18:58.440 --> 00:19:01.380
And so he's developed the ha. Of scooting

396
00:19:01.460 --> 00:19:04.340
slower and slower. The poor little guy

397
00:19:04.340 --> 00:19:07.100
just keeps building up more static electricity,

398
00:19:07.100 --> 00:19:08.980
everybody.

399
00:19:09.140 --> 00:19:12.140
So I try and touch him on his shoulder or something before he gets to

400
00:19:12.140 --> 00:19:15.140
me. So it doesn't get him on his nose. But, yeah, that's, uh, that's

401
00:19:15.140 --> 00:19:17.540
a. So they're calling us the zombie.

402
00:19:17.940 --> 00:19:20.820
Zombie craft. And it was a United States.

403
00:19:21.050 --> 00:19:23.860
Professor Fred Watson: Uh, it was satellite. Yeah, that's

404
00:19:23.860 --> 00:19:26.830
right. And so, um, the,

405
00:19:27.150 --> 00:19:30.150
the. Basically the. The

406
00:19:30.150 --> 00:19:32.910
thing they think is the most likely is one of these,

407
00:19:33.640 --> 00:19:36.550
Ah, an electrostatic discharge just like your dog's

408
00:19:36.550 --> 00:19:39.510
nose, um, uh, but causing a flash

409
00:19:39.510 --> 00:19:42.310
of radio radiation. But they say the problem at

410
00:19:42.310 --> 00:19:44.830
that, uh, with that idea is that usually

411
00:19:44.990 --> 00:19:47.830
electrostatic discharges relative to

412
00:19:47.830 --> 00:19:50.830
this one are quite slow. They last thousands of times longer

413
00:19:50.830 --> 00:19:53.230
than the 30 nanoseconds of this signal.

414
00:19:53.860 --> 00:19:56.190
Um, so they postulate a second

415
00:19:57.950 --> 00:20:00.070
hypothesis, which is a strike by a

416
00:20:00.070 --> 00:20:02.430
micrometeoroid, a tiny piece of something.

417
00:20:02.510 --> 00:20:03.070
Generic: Wow.

418
00:20:03.220 --> 00:20:06.110
Professor Fred Watson: Um, which, uh, could produce

419
00:20:06.270 --> 00:20:09.150
a flash of radio waves, but they

420
00:20:09.390 --> 00:20:12.390
say that's got very low probability. So the bottom

421
00:20:12.390 --> 00:20:14.620
line is we don't actually know, um,

422
00:20:15.070 --> 00:20:17.990
that, uh, we simply don't know what this, you

423
00:20:17.990 --> 00:20:19.950
know, what this, uh, signal Is

424
00:20:20.510 --> 00:20:23.510
maybe, uh, we will find

425
00:20:23.510 --> 00:20:25.710
a few more insights. But

426
00:20:26.310 --> 00:20:29.150
um, that's uh, the, the story

427
00:20:29.150 --> 00:20:31.670
from this team that's hit the news. Even though they're doing

428
00:20:31.670 --> 00:20:34.550
fabulous work on fast radio bursts. The thing that

429
00:20:34.550 --> 00:20:37.549
hits the headlines is the mystery, the mystery

430
00:20:37.549 --> 00:20:38.110
signal.

431
00:20:38.430 --> 00:20:41.390
Heidi Campo: It is quite the mystery. And that, that was

432
00:20:41.390 --> 00:20:44.230
a, that is an interesting one. I'm going to be

433
00:20:44.230 --> 00:20:46.190
scratching my head about that for a little while.

434
00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:50.120
Professor Fred Watson: 0G.

435
00:20:50.120 --> 00:20:51.360
Generic: And I feel fine.

436
00:20:51.360 --> 00:20:52.320
Heidi Campo: Space nuts.

437
00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:55.400
I'm glad that, um, our last story gives us a little bit

438
00:20:55.400 --> 00:20:57.840
of closure with a new

439
00:20:58.160 --> 00:21:01.000
alloy that was discovered. A

440
00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:01.900
new alloy, um,

441
00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:06.880
it's needed for an exoplanet discovery.

442
00:21:07.760 --> 00:21:10.320
Professor Fred Watson: This is a really. Yeah, it's a really interesting story

443
00:21:10.480 --> 00:21:13.190
because, um, you know, why should something, uh,

444
00:21:13.480 --> 00:21:16.200
that seems to be metallurgy find its way

445
00:21:16.200 --> 00:21:19.120
into space and astronomy news headlines?

446
00:21:19.590 --> 00:21:22.360
Uh, uh, and the answer is that it's

447
00:21:22.360 --> 00:21:25.240
got um, a definite

448
00:21:25.330 --> 00:21:28.040
uh, application in our, uh, hunt

449
00:21:28.040 --> 00:21:30.880
for exoplanets for planets around other stars.

450
00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:33.640
And not just hunting for them, but to try and characterize them,

451
00:21:33.640 --> 00:21:36.250
to try and learn more about them. Um,

452
00:21:36.680 --> 00:21:39.560
so the curious thing about this alloy,

453
00:21:40.130 --> 00:21:42.680
uh, is that it has a

454
00:21:42.680 --> 00:21:45.640
negative coefficient of thermal expansion.

455
00:21:46.290 --> 00:21:49.200
Uh, and so what that means is, uh, as we know,

456
00:21:49.280 --> 00:21:52.200
when things get hot, they tend to get bigger. It's

457
00:21:52.200 --> 00:21:54.870
just like when they age. Uh, so,

458
00:21:54.870 --> 00:21:57.720
um, a piece of metal, uh, if you heat it

459
00:21:57.720 --> 00:22:00.680
up, it gets bigger. And the rate at which it

460
00:22:00.680 --> 00:22:03.320
gets bigger with temperature is something we call the

461
00:22:03.320 --> 00:22:05.920
expansion coefficient, the thermal expansion coefficients.

462
00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:09.150
Basic, basic physics. Um,

463
00:22:09.150 --> 00:22:11.600
there are a few materials and

464
00:22:12.100 --> 00:22:14.940
one of them is very well known to astronomers. Uh,

465
00:22:15.220 --> 00:22:18.020
a few materials that don't expand or contract

466
00:22:18.260 --> 00:22:21.230
with temperature, they don't do anything. Uh,

467
00:22:21.380 --> 00:22:24.020
and uh, one of them is um, a glass

468
00:22:24.020 --> 00:22:26.540
ceramic material which was developed in the

469
00:22:26.540 --> 00:22:29.460
1970s. There are two versions of it. One

470
00:22:29.460 --> 00:22:32.380
is called Servet, uh, that was made by Owens,

471
00:22:32.380 --> 00:22:35.300
Illinois in the United States. Uh, and the other,

472
00:22:35.590 --> 00:22:38.300
um, I can't remember its name, but it's made by the

473
00:22:38.300 --> 00:22:41.300
Schott Glass Company in Europe. Uh, these

474
00:22:41.300 --> 00:22:44.240
are ah, effectively what looks like a piece

475
00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:47.080
of brown glass, but it's a mixture. Uh, it's got the

476
00:22:47.080 --> 00:22:49.960
properties of both glass and a ceramic and it has

477
00:22:49.960 --> 00:22:52.560
a zero expansion coefficient. So as the

478
00:22:52.560 --> 00:22:55.360
temperature changes, if you make a telescope mirror out of this,

479
00:22:55.360 --> 00:22:57.800
which has a surface accurate to a few

480
00:22:58.360 --> 00:23:01.280
billionths of a meter, uh, uh, if

481
00:23:01.280 --> 00:23:04.280
you make a mirror out of this, as the temperature changes,

482
00:23:04.670 --> 00:23:07.560
uh, it doesn't alter its shape. And that is why

483
00:23:07.560 --> 00:23:10.560
most of the mirrors, big telescopes in the world today are

484
00:23:10.560 --> 00:23:13.430
made from this material. Including the one I used to be, uh,

485
00:23:13.480 --> 00:23:16.340
a astronomer in charge of at uh, Siding Spring Observatory.

486
00:23:16.820 --> 00:23:19.300
But this new material, this new alloy

487
00:23:19.620 --> 00:23:22.180
has the opposite characteristic. When you heat it up, it

488
00:23:22.180 --> 00:23:25.100
contracts. Uh, and that's very

489
00:23:25.100 --> 00:23:27.940
much, uh. Uh, you know, it's very different

490
00:23:28.260 --> 00:23:30.860
from uh, what we expect to find with

491
00:23:30.860 --> 00:23:33.820
metals. But what it does is

492
00:23:33.820 --> 00:23:36.820
because it's so different from normal metals.

493
00:23:37.220 --> 00:23:39.620
It gives you the possibility of building

494
00:23:39.700 --> 00:23:41.610
structures that have

495
00:23:42.270 --> 00:23:45.210
uh, some of this new alloy, uh, in

496
00:23:45.210 --> 00:23:47.770
them, uh, which will contract with temperature.

497
00:23:48.010 --> 00:23:50.930
It's called Alvar Alloy 30, by the way, to

498
00:23:50.930 --> 00:23:53.610
give it a name. Um, uh,

499
00:23:54.570 --> 00:23:57.370
if you can combine that with

500
00:23:57.850 --> 00:24:00.490
metals that have the normal thermal

501
00:24:00.490 --> 00:24:02.890
expansion characteristic. Then one can

502
00:24:02.890 --> 00:24:05.890
compensate for the other. And they can essentially

503
00:24:05.890 --> 00:24:08.590
cancel out any form of

504
00:24:09.390 --> 00:24:12.350
temperature, uh, distortion, uh, that you might get

505
00:24:12.430 --> 00:24:15.350
as the temperature changes. Your structure

506
00:24:15.350 --> 00:24:18.030
is built in such a way that it doesn't change its

507
00:24:18.030 --> 00:24:20.880
shape because, uh,

508
00:24:21.310 --> 00:24:24.109
the two different uh, coefficients cancel out.

509
00:24:24.430 --> 00:24:27.310
And that's important in one specific

510
00:24:27.390 --> 00:24:30.030
field which has been identified. And this

511
00:24:30.190 --> 00:24:33.030
actually is appropriate for both space telescopes

512
00:24:33.030 --> 00:24:35.830
and ground based telescopes. Uh, when you're

513
00:24:35.830 --> 00:24:37.640
looking for, um,

514
00:24:38.620 --> 00:24:40.780
for planets around other stars,

515
00:24:41.450 --> 00:24:43.740
uh, what you need, uh, is

516
00:24:44.060 --> 00:24:46.940
absolute stability in the instrument.

517
00:24:47.470 --> 00:24:50.340
Uh, because the measurements you're trying to make, whether

518
00:24:50.340 --> 00:24:53.340
they're what we call the Doppler wobble technique, which

519
00:24:53.340 --> 00:24:56.340
is where the motion of a planet around the star pulls

520
00:24:56.340 --> 00:24:59.180
the star slightly one way and then the other as it goes round.

521
00:24:59.180 --> 00:25:01.940
And we see the star exhibiting that

522
00:25:01.940 --> 00:25:04.780
backwards and forwards motion which can be measured. Whether

523
00:25:04.780 --> 00:25:07.570
it's that or whether you're looking for a

524
00:25:07.570 --> 00:25:10.530
direct image of a planet going around its parent star.

525
00:25:10.690 --> 00:25:13.610
All of these need instruments that are utterly

526
00:25:13.610 --> 00:25:16.130
stable over long periods of time.

527
00:25:16.690 --> 00:25:19.450
Um, the way you normally compensate for this, the

528
00:25:19.450 --> 00:25:22.330
way we've done this in the past. Is to have very

529
00:25:22.330 --> 00:25:25.330
sensitive calibration mechanisms. So that you

530
00:25:25.330 --> 00:25:28.010
can, as you take your observations, you also take

531
00:25:28.010 --> 00:25:31.010
calibration measurements that tell you whether that your instrument

532
00:25:31.010 --> 00:25:33.460
is changing its shape. And that lets you then

533
00:25:33.460 --> 00:25:35.980
compensate for it. But with this new

534
00:25:35.980 --> 00:25:38.820
alloy, you wouldn't need to do that. Uh, if you

535
00:25:38.820 --> 00:25:41.780
built your structures with normal metal and this

536
00:25:41.780 --> 00:25:44.340
alloy 30. Then you could make

537
00:25:44.340 --> 00:25:46.900
structures that really need very little calibration.

538
00:25:47.470 --> 00:25:49.940
Uh, and that means that you can make these

539
00:25:50.420 --> 00:25:53.340
high precision measurements, uh, with the minimum

540
00:25:53.340 --> 00:25:56.220
of fuss. Uh, and in particular, if you're

541
00:25:56.220 --> 00:25:59.180
talking about a space telescope which is not particularly hands

542
00:25:59.180 --> 00:26:01.060
on because it's up there in orbit.

543
00:26:01.860 --> 00:26:04.520
Then you've got a system that will withstand, understand

544
00:26:04.520 --> 00:26:07.400
the temperature variations that you experience in

545
00:26:07.400 --> 00:26:10.160
space as you go in and out of the Earth's. Shadow, uh,

546
00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:13.280
and remain stable. Uh, so I think this is

547
00:26:13.280 --> 00:26:16.240
quite an interesting discovery

548
00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:19.440
just for its own sake. Um,

549
00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:22.120
who ever would have thought of a metal that shrinks as it gets

550
00:26:22.120 --> 00:26:24.400
hotter? I certainly wouldn't.

551
00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:28.360
Um, and then, you know. But it gives a really interesting

552
00:26:28.360 --> 00:26:29.680
astronomical application.

553
00:26:30.810 --> 00:26:33.810
Heidi Campo: Yeah, um, I was just looking here too.

554
00:26:33.810 --> 00:26:36.810
It sounds very similar to another metal that I've

555
00:26:36.810 --> 00:26:39.090
been researching a lot lately. Um,

556
00:26:39.770 --> 00:26:42.650
and I don't know if we're talking about the same thing,

557
00:26:42.650 --> 00:26:45.410
but a smart, sorry,

558
00:26:45.410 --> 00:26:48.130
shape memory alloy. Are you familiar with shape memory

559
00:26:48.130 --> 00:26:48.490
alloy?

560
00:26:48.490 --> 00:26:48.890
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.

561
00:26:48.890 --> 00:26:49.930
Heidi Campo: So these are different then?

562
00:26:50.330 --> 00:26:53.130
Professor Fred Watson: They are, yes. Uh, but the shape memory alloys, uh, yeah,

563
00:26:53.130 --> 00:26:55.570
that's a really interesting thing too because it

564
00:26:55.570 --> 00:26:58.330
remembers, you know, you deflect it and

565
00:26:58.490 --> 00:27:01.250
it has memory of how it's been deflected. There may

566
00:27:01.250 --> 00:27:03.190
be, they may be made of similar

567
00:27:03.510 --> 00:27:06.350
materials. You know, some of these alloys are quite

568
00:27:06.350 --> 00:27:09.190
complex chemical, uh, um,

569
00:27:09.190 --> 00:27:11.670
chemical uh, entities. They've got

570
00:27:11.910 --> 00:27:14.790
unusual chemical reactions to make them. Uh, and

571
00:27:14.790 --> 00:27:17.550
maybe the, you know, there might well be uh,

572
00:27:17.550 --> 00:27:19.910
connections between the shape memory alloy and the

573
00:27:20.070 --> 00:27:22.750
negative expansion alloy. Probably all made by the same

574
00:27:22.750 --> 00:27:24.790
company somewhere down the track. Yeah.

575
00:27:24.790 --> 00:27:27.510
Heidi Campo: Well it's so interesting because it's like the shape memory

576
00:27:27.510 --> 00:27:28.630
alloys are.

577
00:27:28.870 --> 00:27:31.410
SMAs are also really being used a lot in some

578
00:27:31.640 --> 00:27:34.520
space with um. Well they're not being used in space yet,

579
00:27:34.520 --> 00:27:37.320
but there's hopes um, to have kind ah,

580
00:27:37.520 --> 00:27:40.400
of smart textile spacesuit design. And

581
00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:43.100
I know that MIT's been working on those uh,

582
00:27:43.100 --> 00:27:46.080
spacesuit fabrics a lot, but they've kind of hit a little bit of

583
00:27:46.080 --> 00:27:48.680
a roadblock because of the amps

584
00:27:48.680 --> 00:27:51.480
required to make it work is

585
00:27:51.560 --> 00:27:54.300
unsafe to have around humans. It's

586
00:27:54.300 --> 00:27:57.160
um, the amps would be too high and

587
00:27:57.160 --> 00:27:59.880
let's stop a human heart. So they're um,

588
00:27:59.880 --> 00:28:02.850
they're still looking at it and maybe we're on the cusp of

589
00:28:02.850 --> 00:28:05.810
having something really cool I think of ah, Back

590
00:28:05.810 --> 00:28:08.810
to the Future where he, I think is back to the future too where

591
00:28:08.810 --> 00:28:11.410
he has the, the shirt and the boots that

592
00:28:12.540 --> 00:28:15.450
ah, the fabric absorbs up to be the right size for

593
00:28:15.450 --> 00:28:15.730
him.

594
00:28:17.170 --> 00:28:20.010
Professor Fred Watson: That's, that's exactly what these things are going to do as far as I

595
00:28:20.010 --> 00:28:23.010
understand it. The shape shaped memory, uh, fabrics,

596
00:28:23.020 --> 00:28:25.890
um, and uh, yeah, I didn't know that they

597
00:28:26.340 --> 00:28:29.270
uh, they were currently too dangerous to wear.

598
00:28:29.860 --> 00:28:32.830
Uh, that's um, that's a bit, a bit of

599
00:28:32.830 --> 00:28:35.190
a um, you know, perhaps

600
00:28:35.750 --> 00:28:38.590
undesirable aspect of these fabrics that if

601
00:28:38.590 --> 00:28:41.230
they have currents that are too high for the human heart to

602
00:28:41.230 --> 00:28:44.070
withstand. Uh, but yeah, obviously the research

603
00:28:44.070 --> 00:28:46.990
is going in the right direction with that. Yeah, it's really interesting stuff.

604
00:28:46.990 --> 00:28:48.790
Heidi Campo: And as you said, it really is exciting.

605
00:28:48.790 --> 00:28:49.270
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.

606
00:28:49.350 --> 00:28:52.270
Heidi Campo: And you know, baby, I always say this, I say

607
00:28:52.270 --> 00:28:55.070
this. I think maybe every episode or every other episode, it could

608
00:28:55.070 --> 00:28:57.940
be the people listening who are the

609
00:28:57.940 --> 00:29:00.620
ones working on this stuff and making those breakthroughs. So

610
00:29:01.260 --> 00:29:03.900
uh, you know, and maybe this is the episode that

611
00:29:03.900 --> 00:29:06.540
connected those two dots for some, someone out there

612
00:29:07.020 --> 00:29:09.860
to be the one who makes that discovery. You heard it here

613
00:29:09.860 --> 00:29:11.100
folks, on Space Nuts.

614
00:29:11.740 --> 00:29:14.660
Professor Fred Watson: That's one of the reasons why we do it. Who knows who's listening

615
00:29:14.660 --> 00:29:17.580
and might make a brilliant discovery.

616
00:29:18.300 --> 00:29:19.740
Space Nuts is to blame.

617
00:29:20.620 --> 00:29:23.540
Heidi Campo: Space Nuts, Yeah. Uh, you can give us a little note

618
00:29:23.540 --> 00:29:25.690
on the acknowledgement acknowledgments on your manuscript.

619
00:29:25.690 --> 00:29:27.370
Professor Fred Watson: That's right, yeah, absolutely.

620
00:29:27.770 --> 00:29:30.410
Heidi Campo: Well, thank you so much, Fred. This has been a

621
00:29:30.410 --> 00:29:33.410
lovely conversation. I really enjoyed chatting

622
00:29:33.410 --> 00:29:36.410
with you today and I will look forward to talking

623
00:29:36.410 --> 00:29:39.250
to you again in our Q and A episode.

624
00:29:39.250 --> 00:29:39.850
Uh, next.

625
00:29:40.249 --> 00:29:41.690
Professor Fred Watson: Sounds great. Thanks Heidi.

626
00:29:42.090 --> 00:29:45.090
Andrew Dunkley: Hello Heidi. Hello Fred. And hello Huw

627
00:29:45.090 --> 00:29:45.730
in the studio.

628
00:29:45.730 --> 00:29:48.530
Andrew here from the Crown Princess. Uh, we're a

629
00:29:48.530 --> 00:29:51.130
month, over a month now into our

630
00:29:51.370 --> 00:29:53.770
world cruise and since I spoke to you last,

631
00:29:54.610 --> 00:29:57.260
uh, we have been super busy. We got around the

632
00:29:57.260 --> 00:30:00.180
Horn of Africa eventually and we stopped in

633
00:30:00.180 --> 00:30:02.500
Cape Town. Weather wasn't great,

634
00:30:03.140 --> 00:30:05.980
but uh, it did clear up. And uh, we had

635
00:30:05.980 --> 00:30:08.900
a fabulous two days there. And

636
00:30:08.900 --> 00:30:11.700
we went out on a um, a ah, safari

637
00:30:11.780 --> 00:30:14.660
which was a couple of hours drive out of Cape Town. And

638
00:30:15.210 --> 00:30:17.860
uh, saw some fabulous uh, scenes.

639
00:30:18.740 --> 00:30:21.570
Beautiful uh, animals. Giraffes. We saw a

640
00:30:21.570 --> 00:30:24.250
baby rhino that was apparently born that day

641
00:30:24.650 --> 00:30:27.490
trailing along behind its mum. So it got its

642
00:30:27.490 --> 00:30:30.010
legs sorted out. And we

643
00:30:30.170 --> 00:30:33.050
saw buffalo, uh, we saw lions.

644
00:30:33.770 --> 00:30:36.770
And we got up close with them. They, they actually came up

645
00:30:36.770 --> 00:30:39.370
to our vehicle. Beautiful uh, creatures.

646
00:30:39.630 --> 00:30:42.570
Um, didn't feel too apprehensive about

647
00:30:42.570 --> 00:30:45.410
them being, you know, face to face. But uh, it

648
00:30:45.410 --> 00:30:48.310
was, it was terrific and uh,

649
00:30:48.310 --> 00:30:51.080
plenty of other things. And then the next day we

650
00:30:51.400 --> 00:30:54.280
went to um, a colony

651
00:30:54.280 --> 00:30:56.960
of penguins at a place called Boulders Beach. They're the

652
00:30:56.960 --> 00:30:59.880
African penguins. They're highly endangered

653
00:30:59.880 --> 00:31:02.360
and they were so cute. And

654
00:31:02.750 --> 00:31:05.640
uh, a lot of uh, babies. Uh, there as well.

655
00:31:05.640 --> 00:31:08.400
Andrew Dunkley: So got to see all that. And Cape Town was

656
00:31:08.400 --> 00:31:11.280
fabulous. And by the time we were leaving and the ship

657
00:31:11.280 --> 00:31:14.040
was pulling out, the skies cleared and we got to see the

658
00:31:14.040 --> 00:31:16.880
famous Table Mountain. So, uh, yeah,

659
00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:18.160
just a terrific time.

660
00:31:18.560 --> 00:31:21.200
And then two days sail later, we were in

661
00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:23.990
Namibia. Now we were told, uh,

662
00:31:23.990 --> 00:31:26.640
by uh, the people on the ship not to expect

663
00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:29.520
much, that um, Namibia, Walvis

664
00:31:29.520 --> 00:31:32.080
Bay, particularly Was a bit of a backwater and

665
00:31:32.590 --> 00:31:35.440
uh, it wouldn't be, uh, the greatest stop,

666
00:31:36.430 --> 00:31:38.450
uh, to make. But, uh,

667
00:31:39.460 --> 00:31:42.460
we would like to disagree with the cruise

668
00:31:42.460 --> 00:31:45.460
staff because we had a fabulous time. We went out

669
00:31:45.620 --> 00:31:48.300
four, uh, wheel driving on the, on the sand dunes that

670
00:31:48.300 --> 00:31:51.100
Namibia is famous for. We went out on

671
00:31:51.100 --> 00:31:53.780
Walvis Bay and saw more, um,

672
00:31:54.820 --> 00:31:57.140
living creatures than we've seen anywhere.

673
00:31:57.460 --> 00:32:00.060
Colonies of thousands of seals, fur

674
00:32:00.060 --> 00:32:02.500
seals who came swimming up to the boat to say

675
00:32:02.740 --> 00:32:05.570
hello. What's all this then? Ah,

676
00:32:05.660 --> 00:32:08.620
Fred would understand that accent. And one of them actually

677
00:32:08.620 --> 00:32:11.540
jumped in the boat and obviously was used

678
00:32:11.540 --> 00:32:14.460
to being around people. We, uh, got visited by a

679
00:32:14.460 --> 00:32:17.460
pelican who jumped on board. We got visited by a seagull

680
00:32:17.460 --> 00:32:20.260
who jumped on board. Uh, we visited the, the

681
00:32:20.260 --> 00:32:23.100
salt pans. Salt is a major export of Namibia.

682
00:32:23.290 --> 00:32:23.400
Ah.

683
00:32:23.820 --> 00:32:26.700
Andrew Dunkley: And you know, we were driving along with

684
00:32:26.700 --> 00:32:29.700
sand dunes on the left and the Atlantic Ocean on

685
00:32:29.700 --> 00:32:32.540
the right and only a track to,

686
00:32:32.610 --> 00:32:35.020
um, separate them. And uh, it was just

687
00:32:35.100 --> 00:32:37.660
amazing. Just an incredible country. Such

688
00:32:37.660 --> 00:32:40.660
lovely people. And I would highly

689
00:32:40.660 --> 00:32:43.580
recommend, uh, Walvis Bay and Namibia to

690
00:32:43.580 --> 00:32:46.579
everybody. They're just about to make an announcement, so that'll probably interrupt

691
00:32:46.579 --> 00:32:49.500
me, but I won't stop because I'm nearly finished. We are

692
00:32:49.740 --> 00:32:52.660
now heading northwest. Our next stop, uh, is

693
00:32:52.660 --> 00:32:55.660
Tenerife and I, uh, believe.

694
00:32:56.510 --> 00:32:58.120
I believe we just, um,

695
00:32:59.430 --> 00:33:02.270
uh, passed the day that is

696
00:33:02.750 --> 00:33:05.630
where, uh, the Earth is the furthest from the sun. So

697
00:33:05.630 --> 00:33:08.350
that's my little astronomical analogy for you

698
00:33:08.350 --> 00:33:10.950
today. And I'm uh, a fellow

699
00:33:10.950 --> 00:33:13.790
aphelion. Is that what it's called? I think I'm right.

700
00:33:13.950 --> 00:33:16.670
Fred, uh, will correct me. But anyway, that's where we're up to.

701
00:33:16.670 --> 00:33:19.550
Tenerife, next stop. And I'll report in again

702
00:33:19.630 --> 00:33:22.490
real soon. Hope everyone's doing well. I'll try and see. Post

703
00:33:22.490 --> 00:33:25.410
some pictures on the Facebook page. I just keep forgetting. And the Internet

704
00:33:25.410 --> 00:33:28.410
here is, um, clunky at

705
00:33:28.410 --> 00:33:31.210
best, but we're managing. All right, talk to you all soon.

706
00:33:31.210 --> 00:33:31.770
Bye bye.

707
00:33:32.840 --> 00:33:35.640
Generic: You've been listening to the Space. Nuts podcast

708
00:33:37.240 --> 00:33:40.040
available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

709
00:33:40.200 --> 00:33:42.960
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710
00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:44.680
player. You can also stream on

711
00:33:44.680 --> 00:33:47.640
demand at bitesz.com This has been another

712
00:33:47.640 --> 00:33:49.680
quality podcast production from

713
00:33:49.680 --> 00:33:50.840
bitesz.com