Comet Conundrums, Cosmic Shutdowns & The Mars Remains Controversy

WEBVTT

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Andrew Dunkley: Hello again. Thanks for joining us. This is

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Space Nuts. My name is Andrew Dunkley, your

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host. It's great to have your company. And on

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this episode we're going to take another look

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at 3i Atlas and uh,

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it's not a positive story, uh,

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and we'll explain why. And it correlates with

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another yarn we're going to have about the US

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government shutdown and the impact that that

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is having on all things

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space related at the moment. Uh,

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there's also a very controversial story and

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uh, the, the two sides in this and certainly

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not uh, on the same page. And that is sending

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human remains to Mars,

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uh, and new evidence of the formation of the

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moon. And we're going to have a quick chat

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about the potential for, wait for it.

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A gnab gib. That's all

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coming up on this episode of space nuts.

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15 seconds. Guidance is internal.

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10, 9. IGN

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sequence star space nuts.

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Jonti Horner: 5, 4, 3. 2. 1.

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Andrew Dunkley: 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 4, 3, 2,

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1. Space nuts. Astronauts report it

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feels good. And joining us to

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unpackage all of that is Jonti Horner,

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professor of astrophysics at the University

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of Southern Queensland. Hi Jonti.

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Jonti Horner: Morning. How are you going?

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Andrew Dunkley: I am very well and you?

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Jonti Horner: I can't complain too much. I'd have been

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better if football results had been

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different. Um, but you know, it's a new week.

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Mondays are always terrible anyway, so that

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was just added salt in the wounds.

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Andrew Dunkley: There was an Australian band who once, uh,

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recorded a song called Monday's Expert

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and it was all about what you talked about

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on Monday after the sport was finished on the

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weekend. It's very clever song.

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Uh, we should get straight into it because

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there is so much, so much to talk about

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today. And this first one is

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uh, Three Eye Atlas. Now we've talked about

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it a couple of times, but this angle on

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the story is uh, a bit of a downer

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because we talked about how, uh,

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there would be great observations of three I

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Atlas from Mars. And that data was really

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going to be exciting and being looked forward

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to. It has not been released

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and for a very unfortunate reason.

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Jonti Horner: Yeah, this is the ongoing story of the thing

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that is definitely not aliens. Basically.

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Now should be said straight away, the Comet

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3I Atlas came quite close to Mars.

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Not perilously close by any means. There was

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never a risk of a collision. Um, whilst it

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was in hiding, it was on the far side

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of the sun from us, lost in the daylight sky.

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And so in order to track it through its

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perihelion passage, people have been very

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keen to Keep an eye on it using spacecraft at

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Mars. Now we have got images back from

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European spacecraft and from the Chinese

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Tianwen mission, but

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NASA have been notably silent.

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Now Avi Loeb, who is continually

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pushing the narrative of aliens and

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a Republican representative in the US called

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Anna Paulina Luna are uh, crying

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foul. They're kicking up a fuss to try and

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keep the alien narrative in play. I think as

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much as anything else saying it's disgraceful

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that NASA have been so quiet. They should be

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releasing the images. What are they not

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telling us? NASA, come on, release the images

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now. And I'm paraphrasing a little bit there,

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but they're kicking up a fuss about the fact

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that, you know, NASA haven't released

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anything and the comet was closest to Mars on

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3 October. These spacecraft have gathered all

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the data. Why are they not releasing the

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images? There must be something that's

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hidden. Ignoring the fact, of course,

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Europeans and the Chinese are releasing

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images. Mhm. What really

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infuriates me about this, to be honest, is

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that, uh, there is a very good reason that

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NASA has not released anything. It's the same

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reason that the wonderful Astronomy Picture

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of the Day website that I check most days has

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not updated since the start of October. There

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is a US government shutdown happening at the

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minute. NASA staff are considered non

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essential, which means more than 15,000 of

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them are furloughed. They are not getting

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paid, they're not allowed to work. But beyond

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that, if they do anything that looks like

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they're working in a professional capacity,

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they run the risk of being sacked. Gosh,

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straight up. And I've got colleagues in the

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US who are suffering from this, you know,

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collaborators of ours on our Planet Search

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program. They sat at home twiddling their

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thumbs, wondering where the next meal's

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coming from, living off the earnings of their

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partners. If they have partners. And uh, they

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cannot do anything. They can't get this data,

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they can't comment on it. Now,

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you know, you could give Avi Loeb a little

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bit of benefit of the doubt. I'm a bit loath

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to do that, but maybe he hasn't twigged that

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there's a government shutdown happening in

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the country that he's in that's affecting his

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colleagues in his department at Harvard.

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He may not have noticed, you know, I mean,

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he's been that busy telling everyone it's

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aliens, perhaps he's not talking to his

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colleagues or perhaps they're not talking to

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him. But for a U.S. republican

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representative who sits in the House,

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who is Part of the reason that there is a

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shutdown to be spinning essentially

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lies for political gain under the. You've got

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to assume that she knows that NASA can't talk

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about this because she understands the

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shutdowns on. Right. They're causing this.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.

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Jonti Horner: The only thing I can assume here is that she

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is convinced that her voter base

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are anti science and therefore it's easy

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points to score and it's like kicking

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somebody while they're down. Yeah, it's

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really not on. And there is no story here.

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NASA are not talking about the comet because

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nobody's there. The phones are on the hook,

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nobody's in the office. It isn't anything to

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do with aliens. It isn't that there's

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anything untoward or dodgy going on.

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And added evidence for that is the fact that

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the other space agencies have released

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images, they've release their data. Uh,

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we've also got now three eye atlases starting

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to get far enough away from the sun m that

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people on Earth are starting to get some nice

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images again. So a lovely one on Facebook in

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the Comets group this morning showing

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beautiful structure in the tail of comet

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atlas and things like this. So the

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information's there. They're just cherry

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picking that NASA required to try and push

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this false narrative. And it's just getting

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tiresome to be honest. But it's very

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offensive in terms of the situation that the

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staff at Nasser are under that people could

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come out with such hockey.

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Andrew Dunkley: They're between a rock and a hard place

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because they can't talk about it because

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they've been, to use the Australian

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vernacular, laid off, they're not getting

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paid. If they do say something,

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they're in breach and could lose

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their jobs. I mean, so they're having

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to listen to this rubbish that's coming

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out about them and uh,

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all they can do is sit on their hands. I

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think it's horrendous. And

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I can't imagine this happening in Australia.

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There's no way that

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any government in Australian history would

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get away with this. If the current

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government shut down all the government

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departments and stopped paying people,

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there'd be rebellion.

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Jonti Horner: Well, not just that. I uh, was under the

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impression that the US prided

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itself on its commitment to free speech.

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And yet you're not allowed to do any work and

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you can't speak to anybody because we're

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having a fallout in the, you know, in the

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congress that doesn't speak to free speech.

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For me, the idea that if you raise your hand

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and counter this

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absolutely cobbler's narrative that's coming

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out, you'll lose your job.

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How bizarre is that? I mean, uh, you know,

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that's like something from some kind of

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movie, like 1984 or something.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, that's exactly what it's like. Yes. Um,

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you can be put to death because you, you, um,

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gave somebody a check.

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Jonti Horner: Yeah, it sounds hyperbolic, but it's,

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it stretches beyond NASA. We're aware of it

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from NASA from the point of view of this

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podcast, but all the government agencies are

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into that.

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Which will lead us into the second item

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shortly. But it's a bizarre situation.

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And you know, I'm not in the us I'm not in

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the nitty gritty of it. I'm certainly not

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involved in the politics of what's going on.

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But it makes your head hurt that the most

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successful space agency on the planet with

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all these fabulous missions, can't do

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anything. And you know, it may well be that

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some spacecraft will be irrevocably lost

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because of this. There were discussions about

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Juno around Jupiter. The fact that its

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funding ended just before this, so they

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couldn't even have somebody on tick over, uh,

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for it because the funding had ended. So

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nobody can do anything to put it into

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maintenance mode. What odds that when the

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shutdown finally finishes, Juneau is

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incommunicado forever.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, yeah. And that's a terrible waste of

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hardware and money, really.

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Jonti Horner: Dollars down the drain.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, absolutely.

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Let's move on to that next story because it

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does correlate exactly with what we've been

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talking about, the US government shutdown and

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how it's affecting flights. But it's also

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affecting like domestic, uh, airline flights,

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uh, but it's also affecting rocket, uh,

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launches. And that is, um, going to have

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an impact on a couple of big missions that

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are planned.

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Jonti Horner: It is. So the. I saw this actually on the

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BBC website on Sunday morning yesterday

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morning as we're recording this, that the big

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article, there was more than 1400 flights

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canceled in the past 24 hours because air

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traffic control is effectively on a go slow

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in the US at the minute. Now,

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um, that is kind of understandable

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because the air traffic control people, guess

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what, they're government employees and

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there's a shutdown. I mean, who'd have

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thought it? And it's been exacerbated because

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I think there was a very high profile

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aircraft crashed last week. So there's been a

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lot of air issues,

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um, in the news. Anyway,

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um, yeah, I was just checking updates on

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that. That's why I was looking over to the

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other screen there. But you're basically

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what's been happening is uh, to deal with the

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ongoing shutdown, the faa, which

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is a Federal Aviation Administration,

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is bringing in increased restrictions on who

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can use airspace at what time to try and

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lighten the load on the people who remain in

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the air traffic control stuff to keep it

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manageable. And um, this is entirely

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responsible, it should be said, you know, if

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I'm on a plane coming in to land at an

260
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airport, I want air traffic control to be on

261
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top of what's going on and if they've got

262
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fewer people there it makes sense to lighten

263
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the load so that they can manage things and

264
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so you don't run into catastrophes. Totally,

265
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totally reasonable. Where it impacts us from

266
00:10:25.770 --> 00:10:28.770
a space point of view is that

267
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starting today, um, Monday the

268
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9th, sorry, Monday the 10th US time.

269
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So for us here in Australia that's late

270
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Tonight there is a new restriction coming

271
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in as part of this airspace management thing

272
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where any commercial rocket

273
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launchers will be limited to only occur

274
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between the hours of 10pm EST and um,

275
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6am EST. So that's an eight hour

276
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window every day in the middle of the night

277
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when airspace is quietest

278
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basically. Now that's going to have

279
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a little bit of an impact on the research

280
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side of things and I'll come to that in a

281
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minute. The main impact will probably be on

282
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people like SpaceX of course who have been

283
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accelerating their launch schedule to get

284
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more and more Starlink satellites into the

285
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skies, to expand their Internet

286
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coverage with Starlink. And um, they're going

287
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to be hit by this because suddenly they can

288
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only launch in this eight hour slot every

289
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day. And um, that will obviously impact what

290
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orbits they can launch into and um, what

291
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launch windows they can meet and stuff like

292
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that. So that's going to be problematic. Now

293
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a bit in the report here, I'm actually going

294
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to read this out and quote this because this

295
00:11:37.900 --> 00:11:39.300
again, probably from an Australian and

296
00:11:39.300 --> 00:11:41.060
formerly British perspective, really make my

297
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head hurt. It says during the

298
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shutdown all federal employees deemed non

299
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essential are furloughed. That's the NASA

300
00:11:48.780 --> 00:11:50.780
people of course. So those whose job falls

301
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into the essential category are uh, still

302
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required to work but are uh, not currently

303
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getting paid. They must

304
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rely on back pay once the government reopens.

305
00:12:00.940 --> 00:12:03.380
So for NASA that means 15,000 people staying

306
00:12:03.380 --> 00:12:05.940
home and who can't comment. Um, but in

307
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contrast 95% of employees of the Transport

308
00:12:08.460 --> 00:12:10.860
Security Administration are considered

309
00:12:10.860 --> 00:12:13.020
accepted and have to continue to work

310
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without pay since the shutdown began on 1st

311
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of October. So not only are you,

312
00:12:19.580 --> 00:12:21.620
that makes my Head hurt, huh? You've got to

313
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work, but you can't earn any money. But we

314
00:12:23.220 --> 00:12:25.940
will give you some back pay in the future. It

315
00:12:25.940 --> 00:12:27.260
doesn't help you buy your food.

316
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Andrew Dunkley: No.

317
00:12:27.780 --> 00:12:30.340
Jonti Horner: You know, it doesn't alleviate the stress,

318
00:12:30.340 --> 00:12:31.820
particularly when people are doing it hard.

319
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And you can understand that this will

320
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probably contribute to, uh, the people

321
00:12:36.860 --> 00:12:39.420
running air traffic control and stuff like

322
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that, not necessarily being in the best shape

323
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to do their best possible job. You've got to

324
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take account of the fact that people are

325
00:12:44.940 --> 00:12:47.780
human and with the stresses and strains going

326
00:12:47.780 --> 00:12:50.700
on, it makes life challenging. So this

327
00:12:50.700 --> 00:12:53.460
shift to the rules is entirely

328
00:12:53.460 --> 00:12:55.260
reasonable, it's entirely well thought out,

329
00:12:55.740 --> 00:12:57.540
and it's a natural consequence of the

330
00:12:57.540 --> 00:12:59.260
problems that are going on there. But it will

331
00:12:59.260 --> 00:13:01.020
have an impact on the burgeoning space

332
00:13:01.020 --> 00:13:03.280
industry from the US Particularly with

333
00:13:03.280 --> 00:13:05.720
launches from Florida and California impacted

334
00:13:05.720 --> 00:13:08.240
by this. Basically, you can't launch unless

335
00:13:08.240 --> 00:13:11.000
it's the middle of the night. Now, there was

336
00:13:11.080 --> 00:13:14.040
a launch scheduled in the early hours of

337
00:13:14.040 --> 00:13:15.800
this morning, Australia time, which is the

338
00:13:15.800 --> 00:13:17.840
escapade mission. It's a NASA mission to

339
00:13:17.840 --> 00:13:20.560
Mars. And I'm not across the politics well

340
00:13:20.560 --> 00:13:22.600
enough to understand quite how that mission

341
00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:24.720
was going to be allowed to launch, given that

342
00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:26.920
NASA staff are all on furlough. But I think

343
00:13:26.920 --> 00:13:28.240
it was probably because they got the

344
00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:30.000
spacecraft to the launch provider, Blue

345
00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:32.460
Origin, prior to the shutdown.

346
00:13:32.890 --> 00:13:34.900
Um, so Blue Origin, we're hoping to launch

347
00:13:34.900 --> 00:13:36.980
that this morning before these regulations

348
00:13:36.980 --> 00:13:38.900
come into place, because we currently have

349
00:13:38.900 --> 00:13:41.180
the launch window to Mars that only comes

350
00:13:41.180 --> 00:13:43.900
around every 26 months or so, just

351
00:13:43.900 --> 00:13:46.580
opened up. But to launch to Mars at the

352
00:13:46.580 --> 00:13:47.980
minute, you've got to launch in the daylight

353
00:13:47.980 --> 00:13:50.740
hours. So there was this risk

354
00:13:50.740 --> 00:13:53.220
there that if that launch was scrubbed, if

355
00:13:53.220 --> 00:13:54.740
the launch was canceled for some reason or

356
00:13:54.740 --> 00:13:56.910
postponed weather, you know, maintenance,

357
00:13:56.910 --> 00:13:59.670
security, whatever, then suddenly they run

358
00:13:59.670 --> 00:14:02.510
foul of this change to the regulations. Now,

359
00:14:02.510 --> 00:14:05.470
I've just clicked over to Space.com, which

360
00:14:05.470 --> 00:14:07.510
is where, incidentally the information I

361
00:14:07.510 --> 00:14:10.150
quoted earlier on came from. Um, and it looks

362
00:14:10.150 --> 00:14:12.309
like Blue Origin delays launch of New Glenn

363
00:14:12.309 --> 00:14:14.990
rocket carrying NASA Mars probes may seek

364
00:14:14.990 --> 00:14:17.790
exemption from the FAA in order for next try

365
00:14:18.590 --> 00:14:20.790
because this is NASA's first attempt to

366
00:14:20.790 --> 00:14:23.730
launch something to Mars for five years. If

367
00:14:24.210 --> 00:14:26.650
the shutdown lasts longer than the launch

368
00:14:26.650 --> 00:14:29.370
window is open and, um, an exemption is not

369
00:14:29.370 --> 00:14:31.730
granted. This mission will be delayed by 26

370
00:14:31.730 --> 00:14:32.050
months.

371
00:14:34.370 --> 00:14:36.670
Andrew Dunkley: And that'll be expensive too. Um,

372
00:14:37.090 --> 00:14:39.850
you do not want to wait two years to have

373
00:14:39.850 --> 00:14:40.490
another crack.

374
00:14:40.490 --> 00:14:43.170
Jonti Horner: But, uh, if nothing else, you have to keep

375
00:14:43.170 --> 00:14:44.890
all the people who have the expertise on

376
00:14:44.890 --> 00:14:47.850
board keep paying two years While they do

377
00:14:47.850 --> 00:14:50.610
other things, waiting for this to

378
00:14:51.090 --> 00:14:54.050
finally happen. So it's all a little bit of a

379
00:14:54.050 --> 00:14:55.250
car crash, unfortunately.

380
00:14:55.490 --> 00:14:58.470
Andrew Dunkley: It sure is. Uh,

381
00:14:58.610 --> 00:15:00.930
do we have any idea how long this shutdown is

382
00:15:00.930 --> 00:15:01.490
going to last?

383
00:15:01.970 --> 00:15:04.490
Jonti Horner: It's already the longest on record. But what

384
00:15:04.490 --> 00:15:06.090
has shrugged me from the outside looking in,

385
00:15:06.090 --> 00:15:08.370
and I don't know if this is true on US

386
00:15:08.370 --> 00:15:11.290
networks and on US news sessions, but in the

387
00:15:11.290 --> 00:15:13.050
first few days of this it was all over the

388
00:15:13.050 --> 00:15:14.570
news. When I logged on on the morning I

389
00:15:14.570 --> 00:15:17.490
opened up BBC News website, ABC News website,

390
00:15:17.490 --> 00:15:20.130
and it was front page news. Now it's

391
00:15:20.130 --> 00:15:22.610
vanished into the background. Because it's

392
00:15:22.610 --> 00:15:23.250
old news.

393
00:15:23.490 --> 00:15:23.890
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.

394
00:15:23.890 --> 00:15:25.610
Jonti Horner: And so it's not at uh, the front of the news

395
00:15:25.610 --> 00:15:28.410
cycle. So I'm not seeing, I've not been able

396
00:15:28.410 --> 00:15:30.170
to get any indication of. Are they close to

397
00:15:30.170 --> 00:15:32.010
agreeing a deal? Are they as far apart as

398
00:15:32.010 --> 00:15:34.250
ever? What's going on? It's already the

399
00:15:34.250 --> 00:15:37.130
longest one on record. Um, and

400
00:15:37.130 --> 00:15:38.610
certainly there hasn't been anything in the

401
00:15:38.610 --> 00:15:40.930
news about a magical solution coming up. So

402
00:15:41.410 --> 00:15:44.090
it's a case of watch this space, but possibly

403
00:15:44.090 --> 00:15:46.570
a case that if you are in the U.S. maybe you

404
00:15:46.570 --> 00:15:47.970
should be kicking up a fuss about this

405
00:15:47.970 --> 00:15:49.410
because it's just so bizarre and

406
00:15:49.410 --> 00:15:50.210
unconscionable.

407
00:15:51.090 --> 00:15:53.530
Andrew Dunkley: Yes, it is. That's, that's probably the best

408
00:15:53.530 --> 00:15:55.530
way to describe it. But uh, as I mentioned

409
00:15:55.530 --> 00:15:58.010
before, if this were to happen in um, in the

410
00:15:58.010 --> 00:16:00.330
UK or Australia, it just wouldn't be

411
00:16:00.330 --> 00:16:01.970
tolerated. I don't know.

412
00:16:02.130 --> 00:16:04.930
Jonti Horner: I mean people's jobs and livelihoods

413
00:16:05.330 --> 00:16:07.610
are, ah, not reliant on the passing of a

414
00:16:07.610 --> 00:16:09.720
budget immediately. In the same way there's,

415
00:16:09.790 --> 00:16:11.750
I think that's fundamentally what it is. As

416
00:16:11.750 --> 00:16:13.310
soon as this happens and they don't sign the

417
00:16:13.310 --> 00:16:14.670
bull, the money dries up.

418
00:16:14.990 --> 00:16:17.630
Andrew Dunkley: Well, we've got different uh, powers in

419
00:16:18.430 --> 00:16:21.070
the UK and Australia. So if a government did

420
00:16:21.070 --> 00:16:24.030
this, um, the opposition would be able

421
00:16:24.030 --> 00:16:26.670
to go to the

422
00:16:26.670 --> 00:16:28.750
palace. They'd be able to go to the palace,

423
00:16:28.750 --> 00:16:30.590
the Governor General who's the representative

424
00:16:30.590 --> 00:16:33.350
of the King, and it's happened in our

425
00:16:33.350 --> 00:16:35.270
history before. They can just turn around and

426
00:16:35.270 --> 00:16:35.950
sack the government.

427
00:16:36.550 --> 00:16:38.470
Jonti Horner: Yeah. And, and um, false. An election.

428
00:16:38.790 --> 00:16:40.710
Andrew Dunkley: Exactly. That happened in

429
00:16:40.710 --> 00:16:42.870
1977, was it?

430
00:16:43.430 --> 00:16:45.870
Yeah, it was a while back. But uh, yeah, it

431
00:16:45.870 --> 00:16:48.270
could. It's a different constitution, a

432
00:16:48.270 --> 00:16:50.590
different, uh, totally different ball game in

433
00:16:50.590 --> 00:16:53.330
America. Um, and uh,

434
00:16:53.330 --> 00:16:55.270
yes, they've got um, they've got to find

435
00:16:55.270 --> 00:16:56.870
another way of dealing with it, I suppose.

436
00:16:56.870 --> 00:16:59.510
But uh, yeah, very, very sad news indeed. And

437
00:16:59.710 --> 00:17:01.950
uh, a lot of, a lot of jobs on the line and a

438
00:17:01.950 --> 00:17:04.950
lot of Projects that are basically on hold

439
00:17:06.180 --> 00:17:08.900
and we don't know when that

440
00:17:08.900 --> 00:17:09.940
might ease.

441
00:17:10.100 --> 00:17:12.700
Jonti Horner: But, uh, you'll certainly big disruption for

442
00:17:12.700 --> 00:17:13.300
people as well.

443
00:17:13.460 --> 00:17:14.420
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, absolutely.

444
00:17:14.420 --> 00:17:14.660
Yeah.

445
00:17:14.660 --> 00:17:16.140
Jonti Horner: Well, you know, just at our lives.

446
00:17:16.140 --> 00:17:18.580
Andrew Dunkley: Now, just putting bread and butter on the

447
00:17:18.580 --> 00:17:21.579
table. That's the bottom line, isn't it? How

448
00:17:21.579 --> 00:17:22.980
many people are struggling with that? It's

449
00:17:22.980 --> 00:17:25.620
very sad. This is Space Nuts with

450
00:17:25.860 --> 00:17:28.180
Andrew Dunkley and Jonti Horner.

451
00:17:31.950 --> 00:17:34.030
Three, two, one.

452
00:17:34.670 --> 00:17:37.550
Space Nuts. Now, we, we just talked

453
00:17:37.550 --> 00:17:40.190
about, uh, a mission to Mars that, uh, was

454
00:17:40.190 --> 00:17:42.430
supposed to lift off and hasn't because of,

455
00:17:42.990 --> 00:17:44.470
of those government shutdowns.

456
00:17:44.470 --> 00:17:47.470
But, uh, this next story is just as weird

457
00:17:47.470 --> 00:17:49.790
and just as crazy and just as

458
00:17:51.470 --> 00:17:54.030
difficult to accept and very, very

459
00:17:54.030 --> 00:17:56.870
divisive. And that is the plan to send

460
00:17:56.870 --> 00:17:59.380
human remains to Mars?

461
00:17:59.620 --> 00:18:00.180
Jonti Horner: Yes.

462
00:18:00.340 --> 00:18:03.020
Andrew Dunkley: I would not want my human remains after

463
00:18:03.020 --> 00:18:05.580
I'm gone to be sent to another planet. This

464
00:18:05.580 --> 00:18:08.100
is my planet. This is where even when I'm

465
00:18:08.100 --> 00:18:10.460
dead and gone, this is where I want to be. I

466
00:18:10.460 --> 00:18:11.860
don't understand this at all.

467
00:18:12.100 --> 00:18:14.699
Jonti Horner: No, neither do I. And I mean, you know, I'm,

468
00:18:14.699 --> 00:18:17.580
I have no religion to speak of. I have no,

469
00:18:17.580 --> 00:18:20.300
no expectations what happens to me after I'm

470
00:18:20.300 --> 00:18:22.780
gone. But, you know, I'm used to the idea

471
00:18:22.780 --> 00:18:24.540
that people would want their remains

472
00:18:24.540 --> 00:18:26.540
somewhere, that those who remember them can

473
00:18:26.540 --> 00:18:28.300
go there and celebrate their lives. Right?

474
00:18:28.300 --> 00:18:29.940
Andrew Dunkley: That's, that's the bottom line as far.

475
00:18:29.940 --> 00:18:32.520
Jonti Horner: As I' commute to go to Mars to pay your

476
00:18:32.520 --> 00:18:34.400
respects and leave a flower. You know,

477
00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:38.160
this makes my head hurt, huh?

478
00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:41.280
In huge ways. And there's a bit of backstory

479
00:18:41.280 --> 00:18:43.760
to this. There's a company called Celestis

480
00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:46.080
in the US who seem to have this

481
00:18:46.800 --> 00:18:49.600
goal of putting corpses into space

482
00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:51.680
or putting ashes into space. You know,

483
00:18:51.840 --> 00:18:53.640
whether that's your beloved pet or whether

484
00:18:53.640 --> 00:18:56.320
it's your beloved grandma, um, there is a

485
00:18:56.320 --> 00:18:58.480
little bit of a precedent for this. The great

486
00:18:58.640 --> 00:19:00.800
planetary scientist Eugene Shoemaker,

487
00:19:01.610 --> 00:19:03.970
who possibly most famous for discovering

488
00:19:03.970 --> 00:19:06.010
comet Schumacher Levy 9 that hit Jupiter in

489
00:19:06.010 --> 00:19:08.570
the 1990s, um, also

490
00:19:08.810 --> 00:19:10.650
a big, big part of the history and heritage

491
00:19:10.650 --> 00:19:12.770
of Meteor Crater in Arizona, and confirming

492
00:19:12.770 --> 00:19:15.170
that that actually is an impact feature, was

493
00:19:15.170 --> 00:19:16.810
involved to some degree in the discussions of

494
00:19:16.810 --> 00:19:18.810
the Shikta Lub impact that killed the

495
00:19:18.810 --> 00:19:21.250
dinosaurs. Some of his ashes went on the

496
00:19:21.250 --> 00:19:23.450
Lunar Prospector mission and landed on the

497
00:19:23.450 --> 00:19:25.450
moon. So some of his ashes were on the moon.

498
00:19:25.610 --> 00:19:27.170
And that caused a little bit of a ripple.

499
00:19:27.170 --> 00:19:28.940
There was a bit of discontent. But a few

500
00:19:28.940 --> 00:19:31.940
years ago, um, back in 2024,

501
00:19:31.940 --> 00:19:34.940
the same company, um, tried

502
00:19:35.020 --> 00:19:37.740
to send a package as part of one of the

503
00:19:37.740 --> 00:19:40.500
missions to the Moon, um, to put people's

504
00:19:40.500 --> 00:19:43.500
ashes on the surface of the moon. Now,

505
00:19:44.380 --> 00:19:47.220
this caused a lot of upset. And the

506
00:19:47.220 --> 00:19:49.300
reason it did is that it touched on the

507
00:19:49.300 --> 00:19:51.420
cultural sensitivities of different groups

508
00:19:51.420 --> 00:19:53.420
around the planet who have different belief

509
00:19:53.420 --> 00:19:56.400
systems and hold the night sky in very

510
00:19:56.400 --> 00:19:58.200
high regard, who have a very strong cultural

511
00:19:58.200 --> 00:20:00.360
connection to that. And that's true of people

512
00:20:00.440 --> 00:20:03.440
across the globe. And what tends

513
00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:04.880
to happen with these kind of companies is

514
00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:07.760
they don't so much. Um, well, there

515
00:20:07.760 --> 00:20:09.360
is a saying that it's better to ask

516
00:20:09.360 --> 00:20:11.120
forgiveness and permission, but I think these

517
00:20:11.120 --> 00:20:12.840
companies don't even ask forgiveness after

518
00:20:12.840 --> 00:20:15.600
the fact. But there isn't much evidence that

519
00:20:15.600 --> 00:20:17.840
they attempted to contact and communicate

520
00:20:17.840 --> 00:20:20.040
with different people around the world

521
00:20:20.760 --> 00:20:22.920
to see whether this would be problematic or

522
00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:25.400
offensive. Now, it kicked off in early

523
00:20:25.400 --> 00:20:28.120
2024 because the Navajo Nation

524
00:20:28.600 --> 00:20:31.080
in the US hold the moon as an incredibly

525
00:20:31.080 --> 00:20:33.560
sacred place in the sky. And to them,

526
00:20:34.360 --> 00:20:36.200
putting human remains on the moon is

527
00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:39.200
testament to sacrilege. It's desecration. It

528
00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:41.400
is incredibly offensive and hurtful to them.

529
00:20:41.720 --> 00:20:44.200
So they came out very strongly against this.

530
00:20:44.440 --> 00:20:46.560
I think they put protests in. I think they

531
00:20:46.560 --> 00:20:49.460
were even looking at court cases. The

532
00:20:49.780 --> 00:20:52.660
CEO of Celestis,

533
00:20:52.660 --> 00:20:55.060
in response to that, was

534
00:20:55.220 --> 00:20:58.060
quoted, um, in my

535
00:20:58.060 --> 00:21:00.060
eyes, I hear this. I read this as being

536
00:21:00.060 --> 00:21:02.380
incredibly dismissive and incredibly lacking

537
00:21:02.380 --> 00:21:05.260
in cultural competency and awareness. He just

538
00:21:05.260 --> 00:21:06.980
came out and said, we're aware of the

539
00:21:06.980 --> 00:21:09.460
concerns expressed by Mr. Nigren,

540
00:21:09.540 --> 00:21:12.540
who's the, um, leader of the Navajo

541
00:21:12.540 --> 00:21:14.380
Nation, who was raising it. We're aware of

542
00:21:14.380 --> 00:21:16.100
his concerns, but we don't find them

543
00:21:16.100 --> 00:21:18.910
substantive. We reject the

544
00:21:18.910 --> 00:21:21.470
aspiration that our memorial

545
00:21:21.470 --> 00:21:24.030
spaceflight mission desecrates the moon, just

546
00:21:24.030 --> 00:21:25.870
as permanent memorials for deceased are

547
00:21:25.870 --> 00:21:27.390
present all over planet Earth are not

548
00:21:27.390 --> 00:21:29.750
considered desecration. Our memorial on the

549
00:21:29.750 --> 00:21:32.110
moon is handled with care and reverence. It's

550
00:21:32.110 --> 00:21:33.550
a permanent monument that does not

551
00:21:33.550 --> 00:21:35.350
intentionally eject flight capsules to the

552
00:21:35.350 --> 00:21:37.550
moon. So touching and fitting celebration.

553
00:21:37.550 --> 00:21:39.430
The exact opposite of desecration.

554
00:21:40.390 --> 00:21:42.150
Which seems to me like he's not at all

555
00:21:42.150 --> 00:21:44.480
interested in the views of people from other

556
00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:46.720
cultures and with other belief systems. Um,

557
00:21:46.720 --> 00:21:48.920
and I found that, to be honest, a very

558
00:21:48.920 --> 00:21:51.840
offensively worded statement, given that

559
00:21:51.840 --> 00:21:54.360
I know of the problems we have here in

560
00:21:54.360 --> 00:21:57.000
Australia with dealing with the traditional

561
00:21:57.000 --> 00:21:58.600
owners of land here. There's a lot of

562
00:21:58.600 --> 00:22:00.720
problems there. Uh, there's ongoing issues

563
00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:02.920
like sacred sites getting blown up by mining

564
00:22:02.920 --> 00:22:04.360
companies, things like this. This is not

565
00:22:04.360 --> 00:22:05.360
unprecedented.

566
00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:05.920
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.

567
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:08.920
Jonti Horner: But there's this

568
00:22:08.920 --> 00:22:11.520
ongoing struggle to gain awareness

569
00:22:11.600 --> 00:22:14.210
of the best way to manage things, where

570
00:22:14.210 --> 00:22:16.850
different cultures have differing opinions

571
00:22:16.850 --> 00:22:19.210
and to get the Best result for everybody. And

572
00:22:19.210 --> 00:22:21.570
we've seen in the, over the uh, years really

573
00:22:21.570 --> 00:22:23.290
good examples of where this has been managed

574
00:22:23.290 --> 00:22:24.810
well. And the Square Kilometer Array in

575
00:22:24.810 --> 00:22:27.170
Western Australia is held up as like the

576
00:22:27.170 --> 00:22:29.170
shining light of how to manage these kind of

577
00:22:29.170 --> 00:22:31.050
frictions and bring people on board and do it

578
00:22:31.050 --> 00:22:33.290
well. There have been examples that are

579
00:22:33.290 --> 00:22:36.210
equally um, illuminating at the

580
00:22:36.210 --> 00:22:37.570
opposite end of the spectrum. The thirty

581
00:22:37.570 --> 00:22:39.610
Meter Telescope on Hawaii is a good example

582
00:22:39.610 --> 00:22:41.680
of where it's been managed badly. And I think

583
00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:44.480
this from Celestis of yeah,

584
00:22:44.480 --> 00:22:47.440
Solestice is much the same thing.

585
00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:48.960
So that's the background. Here's a company

586
00:22:49.040 --> 00:22:51.720
that wants to go ahead and put wealthy

587
00:22:51.720 --> 00:22:54.080
people's remains on celestial bodies. And

588
00:22:54.080 --> 00:22:55.480
they don't really care what anybody else

589
00:22:55.480 --> 00:22:57.680
thinks because if we're doing it can't be

590
00:22:57.680 --> 00:23:00.640
desecration. Right. Yeah. Now the latest plan

591
00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:03.840
is to send, they are opening up

592
00:23:03.840 --> 00:23:06.800
reservations. You've got to pay 10% upfront,

593
00:23:06.800 --> 00:23:08.720
which is a good way of making a bit of money,

594
00:23:09.270 --> 00:23:11.470
um, to send your ashes to Mars. They've got

595
00:23:11.470 --> 00:23:14.310
their Mars300 project and

596
00:23:14.310 --> 00:23:16.110
that aims to have something that flies as a

597
00:23:16.110 --> 00:23:17.990
secondary payload on one of the future Mars

598
00:23:17.990 --> 00:23:19.950
missions. They've not identified a mission

599
00:23:19.950 --> 00:23:21.870
they're going to bolt their capsule onto yet,

600
00:23:21.950 --> 00:23:24.550
but the goal is to launch this in 2030 as

601
00:23:24.550 --> 00:23:27.150
their first burying people on Mars

602
00:23:27.150 --> 00:23:29.550
attempt. Now they're charging a huge amount

603
00:23:29.550 --> 00:23:32.190
for that. I don't know what a normal burial,

604
00:23:32.190 --> 00:23:33.990
a normal funeral will cost. I'm very

605
00:23:33.990 --> 00:23:35.670
fortunate that I've never had to organize one

606
00:23:35.670 --> 00:23:37.940
myself. But they are charging people

607
00:23:38.340 --> 00:23:41.220
US$24,995

608
00:23:41.620 --> 00:23:43.220
for the privilege of having some of their

609
00:23:43.220 --> 00:23:46.100
ashes put in a capsule and sent to Mars. 10%

610
00:23:46.100 --> 00:23:48.980
of that has to be upfront. Now there's a lot

611
00:23:48.980 --> 00:23:51.220
of aspects to this that are weird beyond

612
00:23:51.860 --> 00:23:54.500
the cultural side of it, which I find very

613
00:23:54.500 --> 00:23:56.460
distasteful. It's a bit different if we've

614
00:23:56.460 --> 00:23:58.580
had those conversations and um, people are on

615
00:23:58.580 --> 00:24:00.820
board and you've confirmed that there is no

616
00:24:00.820 --> 00:24:02.700
culture on Earth that would find Mars sacred

617
00:24:02.700 --> 00:24:05.400
and find this inappropriate.

618
00:24:06.040 --> 00:24:07.640
That doesn't appear to be the case. But even

619
00:24:07.640 --> 00:24:10.560
ignoring that, one of the big costs for

620
00:24:10.560 --> 00:24:13.360
sending missions to Mars and

621
00:24:13.360 --> 00:24:15.800
to Europa and to all these other places that

622
00:24:15.800 --> 00:24:17.880
we think could be potentially habitable is

623
00:24:17.880 --> 00:24:20.520
something called planetary protection. It's

624
00:24:20.520 --> 00:24:22.480
basically the fact that if you're going to

625
00:24:22.480 --> 00:24:24.960
anywhere where there is even a remote

626
00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:27.400
possibility that human or

627
00:24:28.200 --> 00:24:31.050
Earth, um, based life could survive in

628
00:24:31.050 --> 00:24:33.170
those conditions, even if it's a very remote

629
00:24:33.170 --> 00:24:36.010
possibility, then there is an extra burden

630
00:24:36.010 --> 00:24:38.530
of sterilization to

631
00:24:38.770 --> 00:24:41.570
reduce, minimize, or even try to

632
00:24:41.570 --> 00:24:43.530
absolutely prevent any possibility of

633
00:24:43.530 --> 00:24:45.490
contamination of that environment. Now, it's

634
00:24:45.730 --> 00:24:47.770
very important for Mars and Europa and

635
00:24:47.770 --> 00:24:50.050
everywhere, Partially because we don't know

636
00:24:50.050 --> 00:24:53.050
if there's life there, but also because if

637
00:24:53.050 --> 00:24:54.970
we want to find out if there is life there,

638
00:24:54.970 --> 00:24:56.610
the last thing you want to do is get a false

639
00:24:56.610 --> 00:24:58.330
positive because you've detected some Earth

640
00:24:58.330 --> 00:25:00.370
bacteria that have been spilled there. Yes.

641
00:25:00.610 --> 00:25:03.280
Now, I think the planetary protection thing

642
00:25:03.280 --> 00:25:06.040
personally is a little bit overblown Purely

643
00:25:06.040 --> 00:25:08.360
because life from Earth will have been

644
00:25:08.360 --> 00:25:10.400
scattered across the solar system repeatedly

645
00:25:10.400 --> 00:25:13.120
over the years through meteorite impacts on

646
00:25:13.120 --> 00:25:14.440
Earth, uh, knocking bits of the Earth off

647
00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:16.640
into space and things transiting between the

648
00:25:16.640 --> 00:25:19.600
planets. That's a process called panspermy,

649
00:25:19.600 --> 00:25:22.560
which sounds utterly science fiction, sounds

650
00:25:22.560 --> 00:25:24.240
like it couldn't work. But every experiment

651
00:25:24.240 --> 00:25:26.970
anybody does on Earth kind of shows that that

652
00:25:26.970 --> 00:25:29.090
actually would work. And if it would work,

653
00:25:29.090 --> 00:25:31.570
over 4 billion years of the solar system,

654
00:25:32.050 --> 00:25:34.090
the Earth will have sneezed repeatedly on the

655
00:25:34.090 --> 00:25:36.010
other planets and the moons in the solar

656
00:25:36.010 --> 00:25:38.570
system and basically inoculated them with

657
00:25:38.570 --> 00:25:41.530
terrestrial life. So it's already there, if

658
00:25:41.530 --> 00:25:43.330
it is there. But the other thing is, if we

659
00:25:43.330 --> 00:25:45.490
take life to Mars and there is life there,

660
00:25:45.730 --> 00:25:47.890
the life that's on Mars is adapted to those

661
00:25:47.890 --> 00:25:50.810
conditions. Our life will not be. So I

662
00:25:50.810 --> 00:25:52.890
think there's a little bit more spent on

663
00:25:52.890 --> 00:25:55.250
planetary protection than is perhaps needed.

664
00:25:55.330 --> 00:25:57.090
But at the same time, it's better to be safe

665
00:25:57.090 --> 00:25:59.980
than sorry. So I understand why, but it

666
00:25:59.980 --> 00:26:01.900
seems to fly in the face of planetary

667
00:26:01.900 --> 00:26:03.980
protection to just send

668
00:26:04.860 --> 00:26:07.820
human ashes to Mars. I mean,

669
00:26:07.820 --> 00:26:10.700
that feels like a pretty high risk with no

670
00:26:10.700 --> 00:26:12.820
reward. I can understand if you're sending a

671
00:26:12.820 --> 00:26:14.180
scientific mission, you've got the

672
00:26:14.180 --> 00:26:16.740
instruments that get stabilized. There is a

673
00:26:16.740 --> 00:26:19.460
reason to have those instruments there. And

674
00:26:19.460 --> 00:26:22.100
then you weigh the reward and the cost.

675
00:26:22.100 --> 00:26:24.910
Effectively, I don't see

676
00:26:24.910 --> 00:26:27.670
any reason other than vanity for us to

677
00:26:27.670 --> 00:26:30.310
drop human ashes on Mars. I don't see any

678
00:26:30.310 --> 00:26:32.390
benefit to humanity long term, um, or to

679
00:26:32.390 --> 00:26:32.870
science.

680
00:26:33.670 --> 00:26:35.350
So I don't see why you would do something

681
00:26:35.350 --> 00:26:37.710
like that. That brings with it the incredible

682
00:26:37.710 --> 00:26:40.190
risk of something going wrong, of those ashes

683
00:26:40.190 --> 00:26:41.710
actually being scattered on the surface

684
00:26:41.710 --> 00:26:43.590
rather than being contained in a container.

685
00:26:44.230 --> 00:26:46.990
It just seems a bit like the

686
00:26:46.990 --> 00:26:48.550
reflect orbital stuff we talked about the

687
00:26:48.550 --> 00:26:50.470
other. I was about to bring that up. Yeah,

688
00:26:50.930 --> 00:26:53.550
yeah. It's one of these things where, um.

689
00:26:53.650 --> 00:26:55.450
What's that famous quote? It's like people

690
00:26:55.450 --> 00:26:57.290
spent so much time figuring out how to do

691
00:26:57.290 --> 00:26:58.690
something that they never asked whether they

692
00:26:58.690 --> 00:27:00.610
should. It feels like one of those.

693
00:27:00.930 --> 00:27:03.650
Andrew Dunkley: It does, doesn't it? Very much so. Um,

694
00:27:03.890 --> 00:27:06.170
yeah, I must admit it's a. It's a big head

695
00:27:06.170 --> 00:27:09.010
scratcher, and I just don't see any

696
00:27:09.010 --> 00:27:11.410
logic in this whatsoever. And,

697
00:27:12.090 --> 00:27:14.690
uh, and yet I'm sure they will get. They will

698
00:27:14.690 --> 00:27:16.130
get people signing up.

699
00:27:16.360 --> 00:27:16.760
Jonti Horner: That's.

700
00:27:17.160 --> 00:27:17.880
Andrew Dunkley: They will do.

701
00:27:18.040 --> 00:27:20.600
Jonti Horner: And my, my criticism here is not for the

702
00:27:20.600 --> 00:27:23.480
people who sign up. It's a bit like the

703
00:27:23.480 --> 00:27:24.960
many different things you see online where

704
00:27:24.960 --> 00:27:26.880
you can name a star after somebody. And of

705
00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:29.200
course, that is not an official naming of the

706
00:27:29.200 --> 00:27:31.240
star. You might get a certificate with the

707
00:27:31.240 --> 00:27:33.040
name on, but it's not an official

708
00:27:33.040 --> 00:27:34.720
astronomical name. It won't appear in any of

709
00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:37.640
our catalogs. But I'm. Even though I

710
00:27:37.640 --> 00:27:39.920
will criticize very vocally the companies

711
00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:42.360
that run those kind of businesses,

712
00:27:43.000 --> 00:27:44.880
I have strong opinions there. I'll never

713
00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:46.560
criticize someone for signing up to do it.

714
00:27:46.560 --> 00:27:49.080
Because when you're grieving and you want to

715
00:27:49.080 --> 00:27:50.560
do something to commemorate someone, or when

716
00:27:50.560 --> 00:27:52.160
you want to do something nice for someone to

717
00:27:52.160 --> 00:27:54.480
celebrate them, it sounds like such a lovely

718
00:27:54.480 --> 00:27:57.440
idea. And this is a bit like that. I'm not

719
00:27:57.440 --> 00:27:59.120
going to criticize the people who want to

720
00:27:59.120 --> 00:28:01.360
send their puppies ashes to space or who want

721
00:28:01.360 --> 00:28:03.280
to send Grammy's ashes to space. If you think

722
00:28:03.280 --> 00:28:04.880
that's a lovely way to commemorate them on

723
00:28:04.880 --> 00:28:07.400
something special, more power to you. Not at

724
00:28:07.400 --> 00:28:10.170
all offended by that. My problem is with the

725
00:28:10.170 --> 00:28:12.890
people who are capitalizing on people's

726
00:28:12.890 --> 00:28:15.830
grief and riding roughshod, um, over the, uh,

727
00:28:15.930 --> 00:28:17.410
cultural sensitivities of different people

728
00:28:17.410 --> 00:28:19.410
around the planet because they can, because

729
00:28:19.410 --> 00:28:21.330
there's nothing there to stop them. And I

730
00:28:21.330 --> 00:28:23.330
should say I'm trying to be as sensitive

731
00:28:23.330 --> 00:28:25.170
about this as I can. Though I, you know,

732
00:28:25.170 --> 00:28:27.410
quite happily admit that I'm a white British

733
00:28:27.410 --> 00:28:29.250
male, Australian male. Now I've got the

734
00:28:29.250 --> 00:28:31.610
passport. These cultural issues don't

735
00:28:31.610 --> 00:28:34.530
directly impact me, but I work with people

736
00:28:34.610 --> 00:28:36.930
who spend a lot of their time looking into

737
00:28:36.930 --> 00:28:39.630
this, who have, for example, spent a lot of

738
00:28:39.630 --> 00:28:41.230
effort working with the traditional owners

739
00:28:41.230 --> 00:28:42.910
here in Australia to learn more from their

740
00:28:42.910 --> 00:28:45.070
knowledge and to work with them and repair

741
00:28:45.070 --> 00:28:46.550
the damage that's been done in the past. And

742
00:28:46.550 --> 00:28:47.990
there are people actively trying to make the

743
00:28:47.990 --> 00:28:50.310
world a better place. And things like this

744
00:28:50.310 --> 00:28:52.390
just seem to ride roughshod over that.

745
00:28:52.950 --> 00:28:55.430
Andrew Dunkley: Yes, that is exactly what it sounds like, for

746
00:28:55.430 --> 00:28:57.830
sure. We'll, um, certainly hear more about

747
00:28:57.830 --> 00:28:59.890
this, uh, down the track. Hopefully, uh,

748
00:29:00.390 --> 00:29:02.710
common sense will prevail, but I suspect not.

749
00:29:03.110 --> 00:29:05.710
This is Space Nuts with Andrew Dunkley and

750
00:29:05.710 --> 00:29:06.790
John T. Horner.

751
00:29:10.130 --> 00:29:12.010
Jonti Horner: 0G. And I feel fine.

752
00:29:12.010 --> 00:29:14.850
Andrew Dunkley: Space Nuts. This, uh, next story is

753
00:29:14.850 --> 00:29:17.560
a little bit more positive or Is it? Uh,

754
00:29:18.290 --> 00:29:20.610
yeah, I think it is. Um, this is, this is

755
00:29:20.610 --> 00:29:23.410
based on, uh, some evidence that's been dug

756
00:29:23.410 --> 00:29:25.570
up, literally in Western Australia,

757
00:29:26.610 --> 00:29:29.570
and it focuses on new evidence about

758
00:29:29.570 --> 00:29:32.210
the formation of the moon. I, I do like this

759
00:29:32.210 --> 00:29:33.250
story, I must say.

760
00:29:33.730 --> 00:29:35.850
Jonti Horner: It, it's a fabulous one. It's good to get to

761
00:29:35.850 --> 00:29:37.290
something cheerful now that I've got all my

762
00:29:37.290 --> 00:29:39.250
angst about the football out by ranting about

763
00:29:39.250 --> 00:29:41.590
stupidity. We can to some good science and

764
00:29:41.590 --> 00:29:42.390
some good fun stuff.

765
00:29:42.390 --> 00:29:44.390
So, yeah, sorry everybody for the cheerful

766
00:29:44.390 --> 00:29:45.990
episode so far. But now we're getting on to

767
00:29:45.990 --> 00:29:48.870
happier news. This is a really fun story

768
00:29:48.870 --> 00:29:51.510
and it's born from Western Australia. Western

769
00:29:51.510 --> 00:29:54.510
Australia is home to some of the very oldest

770
00:29:54.510 --> 00:29:56.270
rocks that survive on the surface of the

771
00:29:56.270 --> 00:29:58.550
Earth. Yeah, um, I've mentioned before, the

772
00:29:58.550 --> 00:30:00.390
oldest fossils on Earth that are widely

773
00:30:00.390 --> 00:30:02.190
accepted are found out in the Pilbara region,

774
00:30:02.190 --> 00:30:03.790
date back about three and a half thousand

775
00:30:03.790 --> 00:30:06.030
million years. This is actually rocks that

776
00:30:06.030 --> 00:30:08.860
are a bit older than that. This is

777
00:30:09.100 --> 00:30:11.660
feldspar crystals in

778
00:30:12.060 --> 00:30:14.980
some old, old, old volcanic type

779
00:30:14.980 --> 00:30:17.740
rocks called magmatic anorthosite.

780
00:30:18.460 --> 00:30:20.260
Now, I'm not a geologist, I can't tell you

781
00:30:20.260 --> 00:30:23.020
exactly what that is, but these are rocks

782
00:30:23.340 --> 00:30:25.660
that on the surface of the Earth are very,

783
00:30:25.660 --> 00:30:28.540
very rare. Feldspar is one of these minerals.

784
00:30:28.620 --> 00:30:31.140
I'm led to understand that on the surface of

785
00:30:31.140 --> 00:30:33.050
the Earth, it's very rare, but you find most

786
00:30:33.050 --> 00:30:35.490
of the Earth's, uh, feldspar, those kind of

787
00:30:35.490 --> 00:30:36.970
minerals that would form it deep in the

788
00:30:36.970 --> 00:30:38.930
Earth's mantle. So we have very little of

789
00:30:38.930 --> 00:30:41.090
this on the Earth's surface. By contrast,

790
00:30:41.090 --> 00:30:43.010
there's a hell of a lot of feldspar on the

791
00:30:43.010 --> 00:30:45.250
Moon, I think, particularly on the maria

792
00:30:45.250 --> 00:30:47.410
there on the lunar seas.

793
00:30:48.369 --> 00:30:51.210
Now, people like to study the

794
00:30:51.210 --> 00:30:52.890
oldest rocks on the Earth because it gives us

795
00:30:52.890 --> 00:30:54.970
a window into the planet's youth, into things

796
00:30:54.970 --> 00:30:56.970
like when did the continents first start to

797
00:30:56.970 --> 00:30:59.340
form? How did that process happen? You know,

798
00:30:59.340 --> 00:31:01.060
how did we get plate tectonics getting

799
00:31:01.060 --> 00:31:03.410
started on our, uh, young magmatic, uh,

800
00:31:03.410 --> 00:31:06.060
Earth? How did all that happen? We've also

801
00:31:06.060 --> 00:31:08.220
got this whole thing which has been a puzzle

802
00:31:08.220 --> 00:31:10.300
for a very long time about the origin of the

803
00:31:10.300 --> 00:31:12.660
Moon. So you've got the Earth and Moon flying

804
00:31:12.660 --> 00:31:14.740
through space together. The Moon is

805
00:31:14.740 --> 00:31:16.840
sufficiently close and tightly held by the,

806
00:31:16.840 --> 00:31:19.140
uh, Earth. And in the past it was even closer

807
00:31:19.140 --> 00:31:21.660
and more tightly held that it can't be an

808
00:31:21.660 --> 00:31:23.900
object that was gravitationally captured from

809
00:31:23.900 --> 00:31:25.700
elsewhere. That would be incredibly difficult

810
00:31:25.700 --> 00:31:28.200
to happen. Um, from an orbital mechanics

811
00:31:28.200 --> 00:31:30.880
point of view, which is my wheelhouse, that's

812
00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:32.640
not something you could expect so the Moon

813
00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:34.790
has to have formed with the Earth, uh,

814
00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:37.440
which means that you'd expect them to look

815
00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:40.160
the same, have the same composition. But the

816
00:31:40.160 --> 00:31:42.840
Moon is depleted in the heavy elements that

817
00:31:42.840 --> 00:31:44.920
are common near the Earth's core. And it's

818
00:31:44.920 --> 00:31:46.720
enriched in the material that you'd find in

819
00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:49.480
the Earth's mantle and the Earth's crust. But

820
00:31:49.480 --> 00:31:52.120
the isotopic abundances, the things that give

821
00:31:52.120 --> 00:31:54.730
you a very fine tuned position on where in

822
00:31:54.730 --> 00:31:57.010
the protoplanetary disk the thing formed, the

823
00:31:57.010 --> 00:31:58.730
Moon and the Earth are essentially identical.

824
00:31:59.050 --> 00:32:00.930
So the bulk composition is different, but the

825
00:32:00.930 --> 00:32:02.890
makeup of the different elements is the same.

826
00:32:03.930 --> 00:32:06.810
So all these pieces of evidence point

827
00:32:06.810 --> 00:32:09.170
to what is known as the Moon forming impact

828
00:32:09.170 --> 00:32:10.930
theory, which has become really widely

829
00:32:10.930 --> 00:32:13.450
established. A giant impact theory, the idea

830
00:32:13.450 --> 00:32:15.370
that the Earth formed all in its lonesome

831
00:32:15.690 --> 00:32:18.450
poor Earth, all alone. And then it made a

832
00:32:18.450 --> 00:32:20.610
friend. It had a collision with an object

833
00:32:20.610 --> 00:32:22.850
about the size of Mars, which people commonly

834
00:32:22.850 --> 00:32:25.440
call Thea. And this collision was

835
00:32:25.680 --> 00:32:28.680
pretty catastrophic. Um, certainly would have

836
00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:30.840
been life ending for any life that had

837
00:32:30.840 --> 00:32:33.680
already begun to develop on the Earth because

838
00:32:33.680 --> 00:32:35.600
it tore the Earth asunder, It shattered the

839
00:32:35.600 --> 00:32:38.440
Earth and spattered the mantle and the crust,

840
00:32:38.440 --> 00:32:40.720
particularly into the space around the Earth.

841
00:32:40.800 --> 00:32:43.200
The impact wasn't energetic enough to totally

842
00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:44.880
disrupt our planet. So the Earth's core

843
00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:47.880
stayed relatively intact. That's part

844
00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:49.720
of the story. So what happened then was all

845
00:32:49.720 --> 00:32:51.360
this material that had been splashed out,

846
00:32:51.360 --> 00:32:54.330
which was primarily the mantle and the

847
00:32:54.330 --> 00:32:56.970
crust, the light material, a lot of it

848
00:32:56.970 --> 00:32:58.640
agglomerated in orbit around the Earth, uh,

849
00:32:58.690 --> 00:33:00.810
to form the Moon at, uh, a distance just a

850
00:33:00.810 --> 00:33:02.450
little bit further out than the Roche limit.

851
00:33:02.450 --> 00:33:04.770
So the Roche limit, as a reminder, is the

852
00:33:04.770 --> 00:33:07.210
closest distance you can take a solid object

853
00:33:07.210 --> 00:33:09.089
to a planet before that planet's gravity

854
00:33:09.089 --> 00:33:11.610
pulls it apart due to tidal forces. Yep,

855
00:33:11.770 --> 00:33:13.490
Moon formed a little bit further out than

856
00:33:13.490 --> 00:33:15.570
that initially, going around the Earth every

857
00:33:15.570 --> 00:33:17.930
few hours while the Earth was spinning really

858
00:33:17.930 --> 00:33:20.570
quickly. And over billions of years,

859
00:33:20.730 --> 00:33:22.570
the tidal interaction between the Moon and

860
00:33:22.570 --> 00:33:24.330
the Earth has caused the Moon to drift away,

861
00:33:24.890 --> 00:33:27.170
exchanging angular momentum with the surface

862
00:33:27.170 --> 00:33:28.610
of the Earth with the Earth's rotation, which

863
00:33:28.610 --> 00:33:31.250
means our rotation has slowed until today we

864
00:33:31.250 --> 00:33:33.890
get to a 24 hour, well, 23 hours,

865
00:33:33.890 --> 00:33:36.250
56 minutes and 4 seconds rotation for the

866
00:33:36.250 --> 00:33:38.570
Earth, technically, with the distant stars

867
00:33:39.050 --> 00:33:40.930
and the Moon going round, you know, roughly

868
00:33:40.930 --> 00:33:42.890
once a month, and it's still edging away a

869
00:33:42.890 --> 00:33:44.330
little bit. We can measure that incidentally,

870
00:33:44.330 --> 00:33:45.930
with the retroreflectors the Apollo

871
00:33:45.930 --> 00:33:47.290
astronauts dropped on the surface of the

872
00:33:47.290 --> 00:33:49.080
Moon, which is yet more evidence that the

873
00:33:49.080 --> 00:33:51.560
Moon landings definitely happened. Not that I

874
00:33:51.560 --> 00:33:53.320
think Anybody listening to this podcast will

875
00:33:53.560 --> 00:33:55.480
question that they're not in that particular

876
00:33:55.720 --> 00:33:56.760
conspiracy camp.

877
00:33:56.760 --> 00:33:58.640
Andrew Dunkley: Although if I can just jump in there. There

878
00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:01.120
was a post, uh, on Facebook I read this

879
00:34:01.120 --> 00:34:03.959
morning, and it, uh, posed the question,

880
00:34:03.960 --> 00:34:06.160
something you were told at school that proved

881
00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:09.080
to be wrong. And someone's put the answer.

882
00:34:09.080 --> 00:34:09.960
Moon landing.

883
00:34:10.360 --> 00:34:12.680
Jonti Horner: Yes. Yeah, I mean,

884
00:34:13.810 --> 00:34:16.050
I've seen all sorts of memes about that one.

885
00:34:16.530 --> 00:34:18.170
One, um, that always sticks to my mind is

886
00:34:18.170 --> 00:34:19.690
that of course the moon landing was faked,

887
00:34:19.690 --> 00:34:21.810
but they got Stanley Kubrick to do it and he

888
00:34:21.810 --> 00:34:23.410
was such a stickler for detail that he wanted

889
00:34:23.410 --> 00:34:26.290
to film everything on location, you know,

890
00:34:26.360 --> 00:34:28.370
um, but

891
00:34:29.410 --> 00:34:31.810
anyway, we've got this very well established

892
00:34:32.690 --> 00:34:35.090
story of the origin of the Earth Moon system

893
00:34:35.090 --> 00:34:37.170
and how it all worked. And

894
00:34:37.890 --> 00:34:39.970
all the pieces seem to fit. Yeah, there's a

895
00:34:39.970 --> 00:34:41.450
little bit of tuning around the edges going

896
00:34:41.450 --> 00:34:43.050
on. Whenever we get new information, we

897
00:34:43.050 --> 00:34:45.650
refine the story, we get a better model of

898
00:34:45.650 --> 00:34:47.730
what's happening. You sometimes get

899
00:34:47.730 --> 00:34:49.730
additional parts of the story, like trying to

900
00:34:49.730 --> 00:34:51.930
explain why the side of the Moon facing the

901
00:34:51.930 --> 00:34:53.570
Earth and the side of the Moon facing away

902
00:34:53.570 --> 00:34:55.970
from the Earth are so different. That's part

903
00:34:55.970 --> 00:34:58.050
of the ongoing narrative of what happened in

904
00:34:58.050 --> 00:34:59.690
the impact and what happened afterwards.

905
00:35:00.330 --> 00:35:02.610
These new results are, uh, really nice

906
00:35:02.610 --> 00:35:04.610
because they, uh, are essentially an

907
00:35:04.610 --> 00:35:07.090
additional piece of supporting evidence for

908
00:35:07.090 --> 00:35:08.970
this whole big splat type theory.

909
00:35:09.860 --> 00:35:12.620
They're looking at these feldspar crystals in

910
00:35:12.620 --> 00:35:15.140
these magmatic anorthosite rocks.

911
00:35:15.860 --> 00:35:17.460
These are rocks that, ah, are so common on

912
00:35:17.460 --> 00:35:19.100
the Moon that the Apollo astronauts brought

913
00:35:19.100 --> 00:35:21.300
some back. So yet again, shrike one for we've

914
00:35:21.300 --> 00:35:24.260
actually been there, um, on Earth,

915
00:35:24.260 --> 00:35:26.780
they're very, very scarce. But what's really

916
00:35:26.780 --> 00:35:28.540
nice is that the rocks that they've found in

917
00:35:28.540 --> 00:35:31.180
wa with these crystals in, they've been able

918
00:35:31.180 --> 00:35:33.100
to analyze the chemistry of them, and they're

919
00:35:33.100 --> 00:35:35.020
essentially identical to the feldspar found

920
00:35:35.020 --> 00:35:35.510
on the Moon.

921
00:35:35.900 --> 00:35:36.220
Andrew Dunkley: Wow.

922
00:35:36.460 --> 00:35:38.860
Jonti Horner: Really kind of spot on. A really good match.

923
00:35:39.020 --> 00:35:41.500
And that's just a really

924
00:35:41.740 --> 00:35:44.660
additional strong piece of evidence that

925
00:35:44.660 --> 00:35:46.100
we're following the right narrative, that

926
00:35:46.100 --> 00:35:48.100
we're on the right lines, that the Moon and

927
00:35:48.100 --> 00:35:49.900
the Earth were formed in a giant collision.

928
00:35:50.340 --> 00:35:52.100
Um, we've got evidence incidentally that

929
00:35:52.100 --> 00:35:54.900
giant collisions were very much the norm in

930
00:35:54.900 --> 00:35:56.620
the final parts of planet formation. And

931
00:35:56.620 --> 00:35:58.020
there are arguments for every one of the

932
00:35:58.020 --> 00:36:00.420
eight planets to suggest that they may have

933
00:36:00.420 --> 00:36:03.120
fallen victim to at least one possibly more

934
00:36:03.120 --> 00:36:05.240
giant collisions. Not all of those will

935
00:36:05.240 --> 00:36:07.440
necessarily be borne out, but they were just

936
00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:09.920
the norm rather than the exception. And the

937
00:36:09.920 --> 00:36:12.240
Earth Moon system was a prime example. Now

938
00:36:12.320 --> 00:36:14.200
Earth Moon 1 was probably the first giant

939
00:36:14.200 --> 00:36:16.960
collision that was really scientifically

940
00:36:16.960 --> 00:36:18.760
supported. Although you know people have been

941
00:36:18.760 --> 00:36:20.560
suggesting a giant collision for Uranus to

942
00:36:20.560 --> 00:36:22.920
explain its tiptoeveness for a very long

943
00:36:22.920 --> 00:36:25.080
time. Just a natural part of the planet

944
00:36:25.080 --> 00:36:27.760
formation process was probably the planet 9

945
00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:30.650
that did that. Well that's part of where the

946
00:36:30.650 --> 00:36:33.410
planet nine story comes in as well because it

947
00:36:33.410 --> 00:36:35.450
is likely that there were planet mass objects

948
00:36:35.450 --> 00:36:37.210
or bigger that formed in the outer solar

949
00:36:37.210 --> 00:36:39.530
system that were scattered outwards. I had a

950
00:36:39.530 --> 00:36:41.090
very dear friend of mine and good

951
00:36:41.090 --> 00:36:42.690
collaborator visiting for the last couple of

952
00:36:42.690 --> 00:36:45.250
weeks from Japan. That's um, Professor

953
00:36:45.250 --> 00:36:47.850
Patrick Sophia Lukashka. Um, and Patrick was

954
00:36:47.850 --> 00:36:49.850
telling us about his latest work which is

955
00:36:49.850 --> 00:36:52.850
getting submitted to journal soon. Looking at

956
00:36:52.850 --> 00:36:55.210
the structure of the Transept Union region.

957
00:36:55.210 --> 00:36:57.050
So the Edgeworth Kuiper Belt, the scattered

958
00:36:57.050 --> 00:36:58.810
disk, the detached objects, all these things

959
00:36:58.810 --> 00:37:01.770
that are pristine pieces of evidence for

960
00:37:01.770 --> 00:37:03.570
the early formation of the solar system and

961
00:37:03.570 --> 00:37:06.210
how the planets moved and migrated. And what

962
00:37:06.210 --> 00:37:08.010
he's finding that's really interesting is

963
00:37:08.010 --> 00:37:10.450
that Neptune migrating outwards. The models

964
00:37:10.450 --> 00:37:12.890
we currently have do a really good job of

965
00:37:12.890 --> 00:37:15.130
explaining the solar system inside about 50

966
00:37:15.130 --> 00:37:17.370
au. So the Edgeworth Kuiper Belt, the

967
00:37:17.370 --> 00:37:20.250
scattered disk, but they do not fit and

968
00:37:20.250 --> 00:37:22.050
do not match at all the objects that are

969
00:37:22.050 --> 00:37:24.730
further out if you do not have additional

970
00:37:24.730 --> 00:37:27.300
planets further out. So it's yet m more of

971
00:37:27.300 --> 00:37:28.700
this building the narrative a bit like the

972
00:37:28.700 --> 00:37:30.380
moon farming impact. We just keep finding

973
00:37:30.380 --> 00:37:32.620
more and more evidence that

974
00:37:33.180 --> 00:37:35.900
takes further observation. Now that's going

975
00:37:35.900 --> 00:37:37.900
to be interesting. Obviously once Patrick's

976
00:37:37.900 --> 00:37:40.380
work comes out I'd happily hop back on and

977
00:37:40.380 --> 00:37:42.140
fill you all in on it because it is really

978
00:37:42.140 --> 00:37:45.060
cool work. Um, and I think that

979
00:37:45.060 --> 00:37:47.060
kind of stuff deserves more of a profile. I

980
00:37:47.060 --> 00:37:48.620
will be a co author on those papers

981
00:37:48.620 --> 00:37:50.620
incidentally, so I'm very excited about that.

982
00:37:50.700 --> 00:37:51.220
Very good.

983
00:37:51.220 --> 00:37:52.980
I'm coming back to this work. So looking at

984
00:37:52.980 --> 00:37:55.510
these Felspar uh, crystals. Yes

985
00:37:55.670 --> 00:37:57.670
there's another point that's just made as a

986
00:37:57.670 --> 00:38:00.230
byline in this. And again not being a

987
00:38:00.230 --> 00:38:02.190
geologist, I'm not fully across the why of

988
00:38:02.190 --> 00:38:04.510
this but another of the results that comes

989
00:38:04.510 --> 00:38:05.950
out of this study of the chemistry of the

990
00:38:05.950 --> 00:38:07.990
feldspars and where they found them in these

991
00:38:08.390 --> 00:38:11.030
um, what was it? The um,

992
00:38:11.110 --> 00:38:13.820
magmatic anorthosite. And um,

993
00:38:13.910 --> 00:38:15.590
a side result that's come out of this

994
00:38:15.670 --> 00:38:18.630
suggests that we may have to slightly revisit

995
00:38:18.630 --> 00:38:21.420
our clock and our understanding of when

996
00:38:21.420 --> 00:38:23.500
the continents themselves began to form when

997
00:38:23.500 --> 00:38:24.980
you first started getting continent

998
00:38:24.980 --> 00:38:27.580
formation, which I think. And again

999
00:38:27.660 --> 00:38:30.420
please write in if I'm summarizing this badly

1000
00:38:30.420 --> 00:38:33.060
but I think it's due to the nature of the

1001
00:38:33.060 --> 00:38:35.420
rocks that are extruded through the eruptions

1002
00:38:36.140 --> 00:38:39.100
from the mantle and the volcanism that goes

1003
00:38:39.100 --> 00:38:41.380
on, um, as the planet cools, as you get

1004
00:38:41.380 --> 00:38:43.340
different chemistry going on, you get a

1005
00:38:43.340 --> 00:38:45.940
fundamental change in the natural

1006
00:38:45.940 --> 00:38:48.100
material that is being extruded and

1007
00:38:48.100 --> 00:38:49.740
eventually get to a point when you can form

1008
00:38:49.980 --> 00:38:52.780
continental crusts essentially and the nuclei

1009
00:38:52.780 --> 00:38:55.780
of continents. Um, apologies if that's badly

1010
00:38:55.780 --> 00:38:56.940
explained, but like I said, it's not really

1011
00:38:56.940 --> 00:38:59.940
my wheelhouse there. But the side result

1012
00:38:59.940 --> 00:39:01.540
of this work is suggesting that that

1013
00:39:01.540 --> 00:39:03.859
continent construction process, the formation

1014
00:39:03.859 --> 00:39:06.300
of the first continents, didn't start until

1015
00:39:06.300 --> 00:39:08.860
about three and a half billion years ago. So

1016
00:39:08.860 --> 00:39:10.480
that's about a billion years after the Earth,

1017
00:39:10.480 --> 00:39:13.140
uh, formed, probably about a billion years

1018
00:39:13.140 --> 00:39:14.980
after the moon forming impact, which is

1019
00:39:14.980 --> 00:39:17.020
putting a clock on how long it took the Earth

1020
00:39:17.020 --> 00:39:19.100
to cool down enough to start that process.

1021
00:39:19.940 --> 00:39:21.300
But what I found really interesting, it

1022
00:39:21.300 --> 00:39:22.900
wasn't really mentioned in the article, is

1023
00:39:23.300 --> 00:39:25.140
tied back to what I said right at the start

1024
00:39:25.140 --> 00:39:27.540
of this bit. You have

1025
00:39:27.780 --> 00:39:29.820
this idea, you have this evidence from the

1026
00:39:29.820 --> 00:39:32.820
Pilbara region that the oldest fossils

1027
00:39:32.820 --> 00:39:34.860
on the Earth are three and a half billion

1028
00:39:34.860 --> 00:39:37.420
years old. You're now getting suggestions

1029
00:39:37.420 --> 00:39:39.260
here that the start of continent formation on

1030
00:39:39.260 --> 00:39:40.780
the Earth happened three and a half billion

1031
00:39:40.780 --> 00:39:43.340
years ago. Makes you wonder whether there's

1032
00:39:43.340 --> 00:39:45.220
correlation there, whether there's causation

1033
00:39:45.300 --> 00:39:47.790
there. In other words, life

1034
00:39:48.350 --> 00:39:50.270
became established well enough to give us

1035
00:39:50.270 --> 00:39:52.710
fossils at the earliest possible

1036
00:39:52.710 --> 00:39:55.470
opportunity it had. Now that's

1037
00:39:56.110 --> 00:39:58.630
very speculative at this point, but it's an

1038
00:39:58.630 --> 00:40:00.470
important datum when it comes to the search

1039
00:40:00.470 --> 00:40:03.270
for life elsewhere because the faster life

1040
00:40:03.270 --> 00:40:05.230
got started on Earth once the opportunity was

1041
00:40:05.230 --> 00:40:07.550
there, the easier that suggests it is for

1042
00:40:07.550 --> 00:40:10.430
life to get started. And therefore the more

1043
00:40:10.990 --> 00:40:13.330
confident we can be when we start looking for

1044
00:40:13.330 --> 00:40:15.490
life elsewhere, when we, when we do that. So

1045
00:40:15.490 --> 00:40:17.130
that's a nice little angle I think, to finish

1046
00:40:17.130 --> 00:40:19.010
on with this one, but it's a very cool story

1047
00:40:19.010 --> 00:40:21.050
and well worth following up for people who,

1048
00:40:21.050 --> 00:40:22.690
particularly those who are into the geology.

1049
00:40:23.170 --> 00:40:23.570
Yes.

1050
00:40:23.570 --> 00:40:25.570
Andrew Dunkley: And if you'd like to read about it, space.com

1051
00:40:25.570 --> 00:40:27.450
or you can go to the University of Western

1052
00:40:27.450 --> 00:40:30.210
Australia website. There's a, um, a really

1053
00:40:30.210 --> 00:40:33.090
good uh, article on that website about

1054
00:40:33.090 --> 00:40:35.490
the, the discoveries that have been made.

1055
00:40:36.230 --> 00:40:39.170
Uh, one final story. Jonti

1056
00:40:39.330 --> 00:40:42.130
and um, Fred and I have sort of

1057
00:40:42.530 --> 00:40:45.370
talked about this on and off for a

1058
00:40:45.370 --> 00:40:47.850
very long time. And that is, uh, you know,

1059
00:40:47.850 --> 00:40:49.730
what's going to happen to the universe? Uh,

1060
00:40:49.730 --> 00:40:52.090
is it going to continue to expand at an

1061
00:40:52.090 --> 00:40:54.690
accelerating rate and ultimately rip.

1062
00:40:55.170 --> 00:40:57.610
When I was growing up, uh, the opposite was

1063
00:40:57.610 --> 00:40:58.970
going to happen. There was going to be the

1064
00:40:58.970 --> 00:41:01.610
big Crush or the Big Crunch or the gab

1065
00:41:01.610 --> 00:41:04.050
gib, which is the opposite to Big Bang.

1066
00:41:04.620 --> 00:41:06.690
Um, now the,

1067
00:41:08.220 --> 00:41:09.460
the current thinking is that it was

1068
00:41:09.460 --> 00:41:12.300
accelerating, um, outward,

1069
00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:14.460
uh, and getting faster and faster.

1070
00:41:15.500 --> 00:41:18.140
Now we've got evidence that's starting to

1071
00:41:18.140 --> 00:41:20.900
suggest that the original

1072
00:41:20.900 --> 00:41:23.580
theory might actually be where we're

1073
00:41:23.580 --> 00:41:26.400
headed. This one is, um,

1074
00:41:26.620 --> 00:41:29.500
yeah, it's a bit of a tug of war between two

1075
00:41:29.500 --> 00:41:30.540
potential theories.

1076
00:41:30.940 --> 00:41:32.940
Jonti Horner: It is, and it's very much a great

1077
00:41:32.940 --> 00:41:34.660
illustration of how science works at the

1078
00:41:34.660 --> 00:41:36.900
frontier. It's very much a journey of

1079
00:41:36.900 --> 00:41:39.340
discovery that is a really complex interplay

1080
00:41:39.340 --> 00:41:42.300
of observation and theory. Um, astronomy is a

1081
00:41:42.300 --> 00:41:44.020
bit different to the other sciences in that

1082
00:41:44.020 --> 00:41:46.100
in physics and chemistry and biology, you can

1083
00:41:46.100 --> 00:41:48.260
do experiments in the lab, whereas in

1084
00:41:48.260 --> 00:41:50.180
astronomy everything's so far away you have

1085
00:41:50.180 --> 00:41:52.460
to observe. So we're a bit more Sherlock

1086
00:41:52.460 --> 00:41:54.940
Holmes than an experimentalist is.

1087
00:41:55.180 --> 00:41:57.260
He's a detective story gathering clues.

1088
00:41:58.140 --> 00:42:01.020
Now, there was a, uh, massive paradigm shift,

1089
00:42:01.020 --> 00:42:03.500
massive revolution back in the late 1990s

1090
00:42:04.160 --> 00:42:06.000
which led to the awarding of the Nobel Prize.

1091
00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:08.560
That went to a team including Brian Schmidt,

1092
00:42:08.560 --> 00:42:11.320
who is a, you know, famous researcher in

1093
00:42:11.320 --> 00:42:14.120
Australian circles, was briefly the VC of the

1094
00:42:14.120 --> 00:42:16.640
Australian National University. Seems to be

1095
00:42:16.640 --> 00:42:18.400
an all round good guy, but apparently doesn't

1096
00:42:18.400 --> 00:42:19.799
make the best wine on the planet. It's what

1097
00:42:19.799 --> 00:42:22.680
I've been told. Um, and sorry,

1098
00:42:22.680 --> 00:42:24.600
Brian, if you're listening, that's just total

1099
00:42:24.600 --> 00:42:27.560
hearsay. Uh, but there you go. But he's,

1100
00:42:27.560 --> 00:42:29.710
he's an absolutely stand up guy, um,

1101
00:42:30.520 --> 00:42:32.640
and got the Nobel Prize, which, you know,

1102
00:42:32.640 --> 00:42:33.880
doesn't happen to everybody.

1103
00:42:34.040 --> 00:42:34.440
Andrew Dunkley: No.

1104
00:42:34.440 --> 00:42:37.160
Jonti Horner: And that was all around observations of

1105
00:42:37.160 --> 00:42:40.000
distant supernovae right at the outer

1106
00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:42.040
edge of the universe. Now these

1107
00:42:42.200 --> 00:42:44.320
supernovae are one of the things that

1108
00:42:44.320 --> 00:42:46.560
astronomers use as a standard candle. So this

1109
00:42:46.560 --> 00:42:48.560
is how we build the distance ladder to the

1110
00:42:48.560 --> 00:42:51.360
distant universe. We have a number of

1111
00:42:51.360 --> 00:42:52.680
different techniques that allow you to

1112
00:42:52.680 --> 00:42:54.280
measure distance that work at different

1113
00:42:54.280 --> 00:42:56.570
scales. So if you want to get the distance to

1114
00:42:56.570 --> 00:42:59.050
the nearest stars, you use parallax, which is

1115
00:42:59.130 --> 00:43:01.090
Earth goes around the sun. We observe from

1116
00:43:01.090 --> 00:43:02.850
two sides of the Earth and we see the star

1117
00:43:02.850 --> 00:43:04.810
move against the background. And the bigger

1118
00:43:04.810 --> 00:43:07.170
the motion, the closer the star is. And you

1119
00:43:07.170 --> 00:43:08.770
can do this yourself. You can hold a finger

1120
00:43:08.770 --> 00:43:11.169
up in front of your face, close one eye and

1121
00:43:11.169 --> 00:43:12.290
look where the finger is against the

1122
00:43:12.290 --> 00:43:13.890
background, then open the other eye and look

1123
00:43:13.890 --> 00:43:16.090
at where it is. And by the shift you get an

1124
00:43:16.090 --> 00:43:18.410
idea of how far away it is. And I think, you

1125
00:43:18.410 --> 00:43:20.930
know, this is how cricketers and other

1126
00:43:20.930 --> 00:43:23.670
spots catch balls. Your

1127
00:43:23.670 --> 00:43:25.190
brain is Naturally doing this kind of

1128
00:43:25.190 --> 00:43:27.790
triangulation. Um, hopefully that won't be

1129
00:43:27.790 --> 00:43:29.190
working that well for the Aussies in the

1130
00:43:29.190 --> 00:43:30.910
coming Ashes match. That's going to start

1131
00:43:30.910 --> 00:43:32.910
fairly soon. Um, they're all getting a little

1132
00:43:32.910 --> 00:43:35.710
bit old and creaky. So I can speak from

1133
00:43:35.710 --> 00:43:37.310
personal experience. Depth perception is

1134
00:43:37.310 --> 00:43:40.110
challenging then. Um, but

1135
00:43:40.110 --> 00:43:41.830
that's the paddle axe method, and that gives

1136
00:43:41.830 --> 00:43:44.510
you the distance to the nearest starts. But

1137
00:43:44.510 --> 00:43:47.310
eventually, stars are far enough away that

1138
00:43:47.310 --> 00:43:49.970
that wobbling is not measurable

1139
00:43:49.970 --> 00:43:52.370
anymore. So we can't measure their distance

1140
00:43:52.370 --> 00:43:54.970
in that way. But fortunately, there's a class

1141
00:43:54.970 --> 00:43:57.290
of stars that are fairly rare but fairly

1142
00:43:57.290 --> 00:43:59.810
luminous called Cepheid variables. And this

1143
00:43:59.810 --> 00:44:02.210
was great work done, I think, by, um, Henry

1144
00:44:02.210 --> 00:44:04.730
Ever Till Levitt back in the early 1900s,

1145
00:44:04.970 --> 00:44:07.810
who identified by looking at the

1146
00:44:07.810 --> 00:44:09.930
Large Magellanic Cloud, that all the Cepheid

1147
00:44:09.930 --> 00:44:12.250
variables in the Large Magellanic Cloud,

1148
00:44:12.250 --> 00:44:14.130
which are all effectively the same distance

1149
00:44:14.130 --> 00:44:16.920
away, the brighter ones oscillated,

1150
00:44:17.410 --> 00:44:19.000
uh, with a different period than the slower

1151
00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:21.000
ones, and all the ones of the same brightness

1152
00:44:21.000 --> 00:44:23.600
oscillated with the same period. So what that

1153
00:44:23.600 --> 00:44:25.240
tells you is if you can measure the period

1154
00:44:25.240 --> 00:44:28.120
that these variable stars wibble, you can

1155
00:44:28.280 --> 00:44:31.280
infer their total brightness, you can

1156
00:44:31.280 --> 00:44:33.400
measure how bright they are in the sky and

1157
00:44:33.400 --> 00:44:34.880
therefore work out the distance. So that

1158
00:44:34.880 --> 00:44:37.760
gives you a standard candle. The

1159
00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:40.540
most distant leg of the standard candles, uh,

1160
00:44:40.540 --> 00:44:42.330
are supernova 1A, which are stars, uh,

1161
00:44:42.730 --> 00:44:44.130
reaching the end of their life and going

1162
00:44:44.130 --> 00:44:45.930
boom. And, um, there's always been this

1163
00:44:45.930 --> 00:44:48.490
suggestion that all Supernova 1A

1164
00:44:48.650 --> 00:44:51.370
reach about the same maximum brightness.

1165
00:44:51.690 --> 00:44:53.930
So if you can measure how bright a supernova

1166
00:44:53.930 --> 00:44:55.690
appears to you, you can measure its distance,

1167
00:44:55.850 --> 00:44:57.650
and it gives you that standard candle at

1168
00:44:57.650 --> 00:45:00.530
immense cosmological distances. The work

1169
00:45:00.530 --> 00:45:02.850
done in the late 1990s was looking at the

1170
00:45:02.850 --> 00:45:05.530
most distant supernova ever seen

1171
00:45:06.340 --> 00:45:09.300
to put a distance on those galaxies and

1172
00:45:09.300 --> 00:45:11.220
then measuring the redshift of those galaxies

1173
00:45:11.220 --> 00:45:13.060
to find out how fast they're moving away from

1174
00:45:13.060 --> 00:45:15.980
us. In other words, to m map how the

1175
00:45:15.980 --> 00:45:17.540
expansion of the universe changes with

1176
00:45:17.540 --> 00:45:20.380
distance. And what they found was hugely

1177
00:45:20.380 --> 00:45:21.860
surprising to everyone. Their results

1178
00:45:21.860 --> 00:45:23.940
indicated that rather than the expansion of

1179
00:45:23.940 --> 00:45:26.660
the universe slowing down as gravity starts

1180
00:45:26.660 --> 00:45:29.020
to pull back, the expansion of the universe

1181
00:45:29.020 --> 00:45:30.740
has actually been accelerating, getting

1182
00:45:30.740 --> 00:45:33.060
quicker and quicker, which is not what you'd

1183
00:45:33.060 --> 00:45:34.700
expect if you think gravity is the thing

1184
00:45:34.700 --> 00:45:37.300
that's winning. And, um, this was the

1185
00:45:37.300 --> 00:45:40.140
discovery that led to the birth of the idea

1186
00:45:40.140 --> 00:45:42.260
of dark energy, or, you know, the discovery

1187
00:45:42.260 --> 00:45:45.180
of dark energy, which is considered to be 68%

1188
00:45:45.180 --> 00:45:46.820
of everything in the universe. It's a really

1189
00:45:46.820 --> 00:45:49.500
big Contributor all of the evidence for that

1190
00:45:49.500 --> 00:45:51.500
came from this expansion of the universe

1191
00:45:51.500 --> 00:45:53.500
accelerating and getting quicker and quicker

1192
00:45:53.500 --> 00:45:56.300
as time goes on. Now, it's just a couple of

1193
00:45:56.300 --> 00:45:58.020
years ago that there were some new results

1194
00:45:58.020 --> 00:46:00.460
that came in that slightly throttled back on

1195
00:46:00.460 --> 00:46:02.890
that. They did a little bit of a

1196
00:46:02.890 --> 00:46:05.170
recalibration of that distance

1197
00:46:05.570 --> 00:46:08.290
supernova data, um, apparently

1198
00:46:08.290 --> 00:46:11.090
using baryonic acoustic oscillation

1199
00:46:11.090 --> 00:46:13.850
measurements. I'm not a cosmologist. I have

1200
00:46:13.850 --> 00:46:15.490
no clue what that is, to be honest, but

1201
00:46:15.490 --> 00:46:18.250
that's how they did this. And that led to the

1202
00:46:18.250 --> 00:46:20.530
conclusion that, yes, the acceleration

1203
00:46:21.010 --> 00:46:23.370
is there, but it's not as pronounced as we

1204
00:46:23.370 --> 00:46:24.890
think, and it should stop at some point and

1205
00:46:24.890 --> 00:46:26.610
then the universe should start decelerating,

1206
00:46:26.950 --> 00:46:29.390
should start slowing down again. Because it

1207
00:46:29.390 --> 00:46:31.990
turned out that they corrected for the data,

1208
00:46:32.030 --> 00:46:33.510
uh, that had been made in the original

1209
00:46:33.510 --> 00:46:35.270
discovery. They got essentially better

1210
00:46:35.270 --> 00:46:37.150
observations, better data that allowed them

1211
00:46:37.150 --> 00:46:39.590
to refine things. So that suggested that

1212
00:46:39.590 --> 00:46:42.190
instead of the acceleration increasing, the

1213
00:46:42.190 --> 00:46:43.710
acceleration was starting to ramp, um, down

1214
00:46:43.710 --> 00:46:46.470
and would eventually start decelerating. So

1215
00:46:46.470 --> 00:46:49.230
that started throwing things into doubt. The

1216
00:46:49.230 --> 00:46:51.790
new results have brought in an additional

1217
00:46:51.790 --> 00:46:54.240
thing where they are now realizing that the

1218
00:46:54.240 --> 00:46:56.320
brightness of the Supernova 1A

1219
00:46:56.880 --> 00:46:59.840
standard candles may not be as constant as

1220
00:46:59.840 --> 00:47:02.640
people think, that there's actually an edge

1221
00:47:02.640 --> 00:47:05.640
brightness relation where supernova

1222
00:47:05.640 --> 00:47:07.880
in the distant universe and supernova close

1223
00:47:07.880 --> 00:47:10.880
by will reach different maximum brightnesses.

1224
00:47:11.120 --> 00:47:13.440
And that means you then have to recalibrate

1225
00:47:13.440 --> 00:47:15.440
the distances to the things in the very

1226
00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:18.320
distant universe again, which changes

1227
00:47:18.320 --> 00:47:21.140
the lens on whether they

1228
00:47:21.140 --> 00:47:23.500
are accelerating more slowly or more quickly

1229
00:47:23.500 --> 00:47:25.900
than expected, and therefore changes the

1230
00:47:25.900 --> 00:47:28.260
outcome of whether the acceleration, whether

1231
00:47:28.260 --> 00:47:30.540
the expansion of the universe is accelerating

1232
00:47:30.540 --> 00:47:33.540
or slowing down. Now, it's

1233
00:47:33.540 --> 00:47:36.180
stressed in this that these, uh, new results

1234
00:47:36.420 --> 00:47:38.780
still have to be confirmed in that there

1235
00:47:38.780 --> 00:47:40.660
needs to be more data obtained to support

1236
00:47:40.660 --> 00:47:43.220
what their conclusions are. But if

1237
00:47:43.460 --> 00:47:46.370
what they've discovered here is correct, then

1238
00:47:46.520 --> 00:47:48.880
the team involved are arguing that this could

1239
00:47:48.880 --> 00:47:50.880
be the biggest paradigm shift in this area

1240
00:47:50.880 --> 00:47:53.760
for 27 years, since that discovery of dark

1241
00:47:53.760 --> 00:47:55.120
energy, since the discovery of the

1242
00:47:55.120 --> 00:47:57.520
accelerating expansion of the universe. And

1243
00:47:57.520 --> 00:47:59.800
they're even suggesting that the universe's

1244
00:47:59.800 --> 00:48:02.760
expansion may already be decelerating, so

1245
00:48:02.760 --> 00:48:05.450
it may no longer be accelerating. Um,

1246
00:48:06.280 --> 00:48:08.040
there are suggestions, therefore, that dark

1247
00:48:08.040 --> 00:48:10.560
energy is weakening, that the universe is

1248
00:48:10.560 --> 00:48:12.040
going to slow down and eventually turn

1249
00:48:12.040 --> 00:48:14.910
around. I should stress that this is so far

1250
00:48:14.910 --> 00:48:17.230
out of my wheelhouse that, uh, that's about

1251
00:48:17.230 --> 00:48:19.230
the level of the depth that I can go into it.

1252
00:48:19.230 --> 00:48:21.470
If you want to do a deep dive on this. We're

1253
00:48:21.470 --> 00:48:23.150
very fortunate up here in Queensland to have

1254
00:48:23.150 --> 00:48:24.870
one of the world's leading cosmologists at

1255
00:48:24.870 --> 00:48:26.830
the University of Queensland. Um, Professor

1256
00:48:26.830 --> 00:48:29.150
Tamara Davis, who now has the Order of

1257
00:48:29.150 --> 00:48:31.910
Australia Medal, um, oam. She's a

1258
00:48:31.910 --> 00:48:33.790
fabulous science communicator and she is one

1259
00:48:33.790 --> 00:48:36.590
of the world's real leading experts.

1260
00:48:36.590 --> 00:48:37.990
She's one of the leading lights in the Dark

1261
00:48:37.990 --> 00:48:40.400
Energy survey. So if you were ever in a

1262
00:48:40.400 --> 00:48:42.720
position to get somebody on as a guest to

1263
00:48:42.720 --> 00:48:44.120
talk through all this, because I know the

1264
00:48:44.120 --> 00:48:46.560
audience loves it, she will be an ideal

1265
00:48:46.560 --> 00:48:48.840
person if she was free. Tam's brilliant, but

1266
00:48:48.840 --> 00:48:51.760
in terms of building on this, I talk

1267
00:48:51.760 --> 00:48:53.760
a lot about Vera Rubin Observatory coming

1268
00:48:53.760 --> 00:48:55.520
online because I'm excited about the solar

1269
00:48:55.520 --> 00:48:57.280
system side of it. It's going to find more of

1270
00:48:57.280 --> 00:48:59.600
everything. Part of finding more of

1271
00:48:59.600 --> 00:49:01.840
everything, though, is that Vera Rubin will

1272
00:49:01.840 --> 00:49:03.480
discover and observe

1273
00:49:04.440 --> 00:49:06.690
somewhat more than 20,000 thousand

1274
00:49:07.250 --> 00:49:09.970
new supernovae in very distant galaxies,

1275
00:49:10.790 --> 00:49:13.410
um, over the next five years, allowing

1276
00:49:13.490 --> 00:49:15.410
more precise age and distance, um,

1277
00:49:15.410 --> 00:49:17.490
measurements that have ever been made before,

1278
00:49:18.210 --> 00:49:21.050
which should actually allow people to

1279
00:49:21.050 --> 00:49:23.010
work out whether what this team is finding

1280
00:49:23.010 --> 00:49:25.890
holds water, whether the original ideas

1281
00:49:25.890 --> 00:49:28.130
were right, what the story is.

1282
00:49:28.690 --> 00:49:30.530
So I think this is a very moving story and

1283
00:49:30.530 --> 00:49:32.010
we've certainly not reached the end of the

1284
00:49:32.010 --> 00:49:34.010
debate over the exact nature of the expansion

1285
00:49:34.010 --> 00:49:36.550
of the universe and by extension dark energy.

1286
00:49:37.270 --> 00:49:40.270
But this is pointing at the fact that there

1287
00:49:40.270 --> 00:49:42.110
is more to learn. And I guess this must be

1288
00:49:42.110 --> 00:49:44.950
how people feel when you start getting close

1289
00:49:44.950 --> 00:49:47.310
to those scientific paradigm shifts that are

1290
00:49:47.310 --> 00:49:50.030
huge, like when relativity and quantum

1291
00:49:50.030 --> 00:49:52.630
mechanics were developed in the early 1900s.

1292
00:49:52.950 --> 00:49:55.030
For a couple of decades before then, results

1293
00:49:55.030 --> 00:49:56.830
had not been quite what you expected. And

1294
00:49:56.830 --> 00:49:59.230
there was this growing feeling that there was

1295
00:49:59.230 --> 00:50:00.790
something more to come, but they weren't

1296
00:50:00.790 --> 00:50:03.110
quite there yet. Um, and this has that feel

1297
00:50:03.110 --> 00:50:05.470
that the next big discovery is just around

1298
00:50:05.470 --> 00:50:06.870
the line and we're starting to get stronger

1299
00:50:06.870 --> 00:50:09.190
and stronger evidence that there's something

1300
00:50:09.190 --> 00:50:10.830
really awesome to learn in the next few

1301
00:50:10.830 --> 00:50:13.470
years. Yeah, it's very, very exciting,

1302
00:50:13.710 --> 00:50:16.430
but also very much out of my comfort zone.

1303
00:50:16.590 --> 00:50:19.230
Andrew Dunkley: Yes, but it's also one of those topics that

1304
00:50:19.230 --> 00:50:22.030
people latch onto and we get so many

1305
00:50:22.030 --> 00:50:24.910
questions about. And I think we actually got

1306
00:50:24.910 --> 00:50:26.990
a question of this ilk for our next episode,

1307
00:50:26.990 --> 00:50:29.750
which is the Q and A episode. So, uh, we'll

1308
00:50:29.750 --> 00:50:31.710
be tackling that again. But, uh, yeah,

1309
00:50:31.710 --> 00:50:34.370
fascinating story. And if like to read all

1310
00:50:34.370 --> 00:50:36.890
about it, you can do that, uh, by looking up

1311
00:50:36.890 --> 00:50:39.890
the paper, uh, on the monthly notices of the

1312
00:50:39.890 --> 00:50:42.700
Royal Astronomical Society, uh,

1313
00:50:42.810 --> 00:50:45.130
and I think it's titled, uh, Strong

1314
00:50:45.610 --> 00:50:48.450
Progenitor Age Bias in Supernova

1315
00:50:48.450 --> 00:50:51.410
Cosmology. There you are. Um, hope you

1316
00:50:51.410 --> 00:50:54.330
wrote that down. Um, that's it. Thank you,

1317
00:50:54.330 --> 00:50:57.130
Jonti. Uh, entertaining and informative

1318
00:50:57.210 --> 00:50:57.930
as always.

1319
00:50:59.140 --> 00:51:00.420
Jonti Horner: It's an absolute pleasure. Thank you for

1320
00:51:00.420 --> 00:51:01.390
having me. And sorry for the runtiness. Um,

1321
00:51:01.820 --> 00:51:03.540
it's been a runty week, so I feel that we

1322
00:51:03.540 --> 00:51:05.140
should have at some point.

1323
00:51:05.940 --> 00:51:08.180
Andrew Dunkley: We'll get around to it. Uh, John D. Horner,

1324
00:51:08.180 --> 00:51:09.860
professor of astrophysics at the University

1325
00:51:09.940 --> 00:51:12.260
of Southern Queensland, joining us this week,

1326
00:51:12.520 --> 00:51:15.380
uh, while Fred Gallivant's around Edinburgh.

1327
00:51:16.020 --> 00:51:18.500
Uh, and don't forget, uh, oh, and,

1328
00:51:18.500 --> 00:51:21.140
um, Huw in the studio. We have to thank him.

1329
00:51:21.300 --> 00:51:23.460
He couldn't be with us today. He got himself

1330
00:51:23.700 --> 00:51:26.620
300th in the queue to have his, um, mortal

1331
00:51:26.620 --> 00:51:27.780
remains sent to Mars.

1332
00:51:27.780 --> 00:51:28.020
Jonti Horner: And.

1333
00:51:28.090 --> 00:51:30.610
Andrew Dunkley: And, uh, yeah, he's just, um, waiting for his

1334
00:51:30.610 --> 00:51:33.370
chance to pay the deposit. Who's going to

1335
00:51:33.370 --> 00:51:35.890
tell him? Uh, and from me, Andrew Dunkley.

1336
00:51:35.890 --> 00:51:37.210
Thanks for your company. We'll catch you on

1337
00:51:37.210 --> 00:51:39.530
the next episode of Space Nuts. Until then,

1338
00:51:39.770 --> 00:51:40.410
bye Bye.

1339
00:51:41.690 --> 00:51:43.890
Jonti Horner: You'll be listening to the Space Nuts

1340
00:51:43.890 --> 00:51:46.890
podcast, available at

1341
00:51:46.890 --> 00:51:48.890
Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

1342
00:51:49.050 --> 00:51:51.770
iHeartRadio or your favorite podcast

1343
00:51:51.770 --> 00:51:53.900
player. You can also stream on Twitter demand

1344
00:51:53.900 --> 00:51:54.920
at bytes. Com.

1345
00:51:54.920 --> 00:51:57.620
Andrew Dunkley: Um, this has been another quality podcast

1346
00:51:57.620 --> 00:51:59.220
production from bytes.

1347
00:51:59.300 --> 00:51:59.710
Jonti Horner: Com. Um.