Challenger's Legacy, Cosmic Moons & the Mystery of Rapid Black Hole Growth

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Professor Fred Watson: Hi there.

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Andrew Dunkley: Thanks for joining us on Space Nuts, where we

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talk astronomy and space science, uh, twice

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a week in fact, and I'm glad you could join

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us yet again. Uh, today's

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episode has some great, uh,

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news, but also, uh, a bit of a sad

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reflection. It's 40 years since

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the Challenger space shuttle disaster.

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Can you believe that? 40 years. Of course,

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some of you listening to us won't

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remember it because you're 40. Uh, but, uh,

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for those of us who are a few years older,

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uh, it is, um, a very, very strong

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memory. We'll, uh, talk about that. On a

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happier note, we will reveal the Australian

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of the Year. I think most Australians will

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know who that is. Uh, how do you

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define a moon? That question has come up

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because of a potential discovery and

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they think they know why black holes are

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getting bigger fast. We'll

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talk about all of that on this episode of

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Space Nuts.

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Generic: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal.

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10, 9. Ignition

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sequence start.

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Professor Fred Watson: Space Nuts.

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Generic: 5, 4, 3. 2. 1. 2, 3, 4,

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5, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Space

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Nuts astronauts report it feels good.

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Andrew Dunkley: Joining us as always, is his good self,

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Professor Fred Watson, astronomer at large.

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Hello, Fred.

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Professor Fred Watson: Hello. It's good to be good.

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Andrew Dunkley: It is good to be good. It's good to see you.

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It's good to be in a cool room because it's

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not cool in our part of the world at the

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moment. We're right in the middle of a week

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long, uh, run of 40 plus

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Celsius temperatures. Uh,

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we've, uh, broken our uh, record

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in Dubbo for the hottest day in January

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and that was

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46.21 I think

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we had, uh, on Monday on Australia

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Day, which, um, yeah, it was dreadful.

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I mean it was just horrific. Um, so,

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yeah, it's, it's been a pretty rough week.

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Um, my plants are suffering. There's nothing

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I can do about it. And I, uh, think we're

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going to lose a few. So unfortunately, that's

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the way it goes. Um, I suppose that's what

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happens when they plant plants in an

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environment like this that um, don't come

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from here. They struggle. But,

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uh, yes, all, all is well with you?

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Professor Fred Watson: Uh, yeah, our plants, uh, pretty well are all

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natives, uh, in Marnie's garden. So they,

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they don't seem to mind.

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But we've got much more modest temperatures

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than you have here on the coast.

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Andrew Dunkley: Probably about 10 degrees cooler.

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Professor Fred Watson: I imagine it's not quite that, but

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not far off. Yeah, yeah, actually, no, it's

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more like 20 at the moment. 20

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degrees? Yeah, we're down at, um. But it's

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forecast to be 29 today, so.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yes, well, we're going to get to 41 I think

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today, so I think we're already pushing

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towards 30 as I speak. And it's only what,

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9:30 in the morning local time. So,

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um, we've got a lot to talk about, so we

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better get stuck into it.

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Uh, the first thing is, uh, something

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that, um, I don't think anyone who

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was around at the time will ever forget.

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I'm talking about the Challenger space

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shuttle launch, uh, in

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1986. And this is

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basically what happened.

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Generic: T minus 15 seconds.

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T minus 10, 9,

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8, 7, 6. We

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have main engine start. 4,

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3, 2, 1.

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And liftoff.

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Andrew Dunkley: Liftoff.

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Generic: Uh, of the 25th space shuttle mission and it

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has cleared the tower.

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Challenger

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good roll program confirmed.

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Challenger now heading downrange.

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Engines beginning throttling down now at

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94%. Normal throttles

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for most of the flight. 104%.

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Throttle down to 65% shortly.

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Engines at 65%. Three engines running

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normally. Three good fuel cells. Three good

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APUs.

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Velocity 2257ft per second.

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Altitude 4.3 nautical miles downrange.

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Distance 3 nautical

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miles.

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Engines throttling up. Three engines now at

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104%. Challenger go at throttle up.

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1 minute 15 seconds. Velocity 2900ft per

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second. Altitude 9 nautical miles downrange.

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Distance 7 nautical miles.

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Professor Fred Watson: It.

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M.

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Generic: Flight controllers here looking very

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carefully at the situation.

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Obviously a major malfunction.

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We have no downlink.

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We have a report from the flight dynamics

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officer that the vehicle has exploded. Flight

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director confirms that we are looking at,

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uh, checking with the recovery forces to see,

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uh, what can be done at this point.

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Andrew Dunkley: And there it is. That was the launch of

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challenger in 1986, uh,

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in real time. Uh, and

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we heard the final words of, uh, the

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commander, Dick Scobie, when he said, roger,

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going with throttle up. And that was

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basically where it all went horribly wrong.

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Fred. Uh, the, um,

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cause of the accident was ultimately

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blamed on the O rings. The O rings

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joined each section of the solid

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rocket boosters and

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there were several of them, but one of them

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had a catastrophic failure and the, um,

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uh, the vehicle exploded as a consequence of

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that failure. And we all saw it,

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we all watched, um,

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was horrifying.

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Professor Fred Watson: Uh, indeed it was. I remember it very well

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too, of course. Um, so, yeah, it was

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um, nothing to do with the throttling up.

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That was just, that was just to get it going.

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Yeah, and

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they throttle back for the, um, maximum

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dynamic pressure, uh, region. When you've

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got the biggest aerodynamic forces, you

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Throttle back for that and then throttle up

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again. Um, and so it was

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eventually determined that, uh,

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what had happened was that the temperature on

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one side of the shuttle, uh, it was a cold

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morning, it was a winter morning, 28th of

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January, 2 degrees, I think it was 2 degrees

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above zero ambient when they launched. But

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one of the one side of the

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throttle, sorry, the shuttle and its boosters

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were still at minus two. And uh, those

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temperatures, um, those O

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rings become effectively, uh, non

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pliable. They, they don't, you know, they're

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not flexible. Uh, and so that's what

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allowed the fact that it was not behaving

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properly allowed gas to escape from that

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joint as exactly as you've said. There are

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four sections to the shuttle booster, each

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sealed by O rings. And it was the lower one,

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um, where combustion was at its extreme.

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Uh, it uh, meant the gases came through. And

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in fact, uh, there is footage that shows

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exactly that, uh, with these hot gases

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playing on the main fuel tank, um,

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the external fuel tank of the shuttle. So it

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was, uh, very much their fate was

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sealed even before launch, basically. And

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there were people at the company who built

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the boosters. Morton FIRE call who knew that.

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And they were overridden in their

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warnings that this was likely to be

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dangerous.

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Andrew Dunkley: They raised concerns a long time before this

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happened. In fact, uh, they'd discovered

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damage in the O rings from previous missions.

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And even the night before

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the launch they held a meeting to say,

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we don't think you've got to scrub the

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launch. It's not safe,

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something dreadful could happen. And I

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think, uh, the factor that

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made the difference, as you said, was the

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temperature that morning. Um, because

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previous flights were warmer.

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It was warmer, Yeah.

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Professor Fred Watson: I think 12 degrees was the lowest they'd ever

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launched at. And it was two that morning, as

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you said. Um, and one of the

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reasons for the

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reluctance to scrub the mission may have

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been the fact that we did have

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this teacher, uh, on board,

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Christina McAuliffe, that's her name, I

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think. Um, she was, uh,

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a schoolteacher, not an astronaut. Uh,

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she'd engaged many, many schools

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across the country. So

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huge numbers of people were watching. And

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NASA had done that purposely, I think, to

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sort of inject some more interest into the

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shuttle program. Because they'd had 25

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successful launches and it was becoming

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basically routine. Um, you know,

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very. People were blase about it. Uh,

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but just to also confirm

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that there were a further 87 successful

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shuttle launches after that. So the problems

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were fixed and, uh, the lessons were learned.

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Um, it was a tragedy, of course,

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a human tragedy. With the loss of life.

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Uh, I noticed something yesterday that

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blew me away, Andrew. Um,

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there are 17 astronauts

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were lost, uh, in NASA

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programs. The three, um,

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Apollo 1 astronauts who died in

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the fire on the ground, uh, of the Apollo 1

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uh, capsule. That was on the

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uh, 27th of January

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1967. Yes, the uh,

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Columbia disaster, uh, when

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re. Um entry was um, basically turned

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into a uh, you know, a disintegration because

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of damage uh, to the, to the shuttle wing.

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Andrew Dunkley: That wasn't it.

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Professor Fred Watson: That's correct. That was on the 1st of

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February 2003. So these

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losses of life, we're all within a

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week of each other in anniversary times.

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It's quite amazing. So, yes, the

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Challenger disaster, uh, 59

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years before, uh, the day before we'd lost

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the Apollo 1 crew. And uh,

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um. It's a coincidence, but it's a spooky

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one.

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Andrew Dunkley: It is very spooky. I remember where I was

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when the news broke. I just got in my car

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and um, I naturally

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had the radio on being someone who worked in

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the industry. And uh, the news came on

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as I was backing the car out and I just

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stopped in my tracks and I just shook. I

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couldn't believe it. Um,

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and, and what really haunts me is that only a

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week before I'd been talking to my

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future sister in law who was still in high

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school at the time. And she brought it up

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with me about the space shuttle program. And

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I said what worries me is something

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horribly wrong is going to happen.

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Yeah, uh, I, I think, I think they're

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actually being too gung ho. Those. That's

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what I said to her. And I couldn't believe

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less. You know, about a week later this

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happened.

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Professor Fred Watson: Uh, well, you were right in, in a way that's

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sort of what, what led to it.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, yeah. Uh, but the same thing,

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uh, as you mentioned with the, the loss of

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interest in the space shuttle program from

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the public perspect, uh, happened with

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Apollo like they supposed to, they were

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supposed to have more missions but they just

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went no, no one's interested anymore. So they

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stopped at 17 and. Quite

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right. And, and I, I suppose these

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days space travel has just become

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routine. There are missions going up and down

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all the time we never hear about because

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it's just it, it's so very regular

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now. And, and when you bring in the private

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sector on top of that there's launches every

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other day. It's, it's just happening.

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And was always going to go that way, I

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suppose. Uh, but

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um, you've got to spare a thought for

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the pioneers that uh, sacrificed their lives

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to make all this possible. Because without

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them it just would never have got to the

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point it is now. And I think

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we've said it before. You go back to the

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history of flight and we got to the moon in

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less than 100 years of the first flight by

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a human being in a, in a um, purpose

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built uh, aircraft. It's just

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extraordinary to think that we,

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we could have leapt so far so fast. And I

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suppose when you do that there is a price.

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And this was one of the, one of the costs

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of uh, of space travel and aeronautics and

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yeah, it was very sad day and um, one I will

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never forget. Red.

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Uh, we will leave Challenger there um,

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to some happier news and of course

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uh, the other celebrated Australia

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Day in this country. 26th of January

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and every year we uh,

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have the announcement of the Australian of

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the Year. Now quite often it's a sports star.

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That usually, usually happens. Uh, although

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in recent years they've been focusing more on

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the academic side of things or the medical

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side of things. Which is, which is good. This

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00:14:27.380 --> 00:14:29.700
year though, uh, you must be really pleased.

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It is an Australian astronaut,

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uh, absolutely.

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Professor Fred Watson: Delighted, yeah really thrilled about that.

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Um, she's an astronaut

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who uh, has been qualified under

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ESA's Program Astronaut Program, uh, the

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European Space Agency. She hasn't flown yet.

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Uh, there's every chance that she will, that

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she will fly to the space station, uh, and

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fulfill a mission. Catherine bennelpegg

321
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is her name. I discovered um, yesterday,

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looking at dates yesterday obviously um, she

323
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is one day short of 40 years younger

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than me but her birthday is the day

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after mine. So

326
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that's a non coincidence. But um, not

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only an astronaut, but she is also Director

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of Space Technology at the Australian Space

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Agency which was um, very much um,

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close to my heart in the work that I did for

331
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the government, the Australian Space Agency,

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uh, a sister organization within the

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Department of the Industry, Science and

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Resources where I worked. So uh, a lot of

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friends there. Um, and Catherine uh,

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is uh, absolutely

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well deserved recipient of the

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00:15:39.510 --> 00:15:41.790
annual Australian of the Year award and

339
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she'll do great things with it. She wants to

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be um, very much a STEM

341
00:15:46.790 --> 00:15:49.510
ambassador as well for public ed,

342
00:15:49.510 --> 00:15:51.830
for education, uh, for science, technology,

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education. She'll do a great job. She's a

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lovely person.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yes, um, she comes across that way and

346
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I think the interest in space science is

347
00:16:02.520 --> 00:16:05.360
starting to really uh, grow from strength

348
00:16:05.360 --> 00:16:08.320
to strength and uh, she will do

349
00:16:08.640 --> 00:16:11.119
a wonderful job in that regard and

350
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maybe inspire other Australians to follow in

351
00:16:13.800 --> 00:16:16.760
her footsteps. And now that we have our own

352
00:16:16.760 --> 00:16:18.880
space agency. We certainly want that, don't

353
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we?

354
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Professor Fred Watson: Very much so, yes. The Australian Space

355
00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:24.480
Agency was formed in 2018.

356
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It's um, still going strong.

357
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A lot of its, uh, functions are regulatory.

358
00:16:30.500 --> 00:16:32.420
It's all about regulating launches and things

359
00:16:32.420 --> 00:16:35.220
of that sort, um, but also promoting

360
00:16:35.220 --> 00:16:38.140
startups and things of that sort to encourage

361
00:16:38.140 --> 00:16:40.300
the space industry here in Australia, which

362
00:16:40.300 --> 00:16:42.140
was why it was set up in the first place.

363
00:16:42.300 --> 00:16:42.779
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.

364
00:16:42.779 --> 00:16:44.820
Professor Fred Watson: Catherine. Catherine's a great, you know, a

365
00:16:44.820 --> 00:16:46.700
great cheerleader for that. It's brilliant.

366
00:16:46.700 --> 00:16:48.580
Andrew Dunkley: She's got a busy year ahead of her now

367
00:16:48.580 --> 00:16:51.580
because her Australian of the Year duties

368
00:16:51.580 --> 00:16:53.900
will be on top of what she has to do for her

369
00:16:53.900 --> 00:16:56.860
regular gig. So she'll be doing a lot more

370
00:16:56.860 --> 00:16:58.530
travel, a lot more speaking, a lot more

371
00:16:58.680 --> 00:17:01.040
engagements. Uh, it, it's a big job when

372
00:17:01.040 --> 00:17:03.440
you're named Australian of the Year, so I'm

373
00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:03.720
told.

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Professor Fred Watson: Well, you never know. Andrew. One day. One

375
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day. Ah.

376
00:17:09.390 --> 00:17:12.240
Andrew Dunkley: Uh, look, I'd be, I'd be lucky to

377
00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:15.120
be named, you know, my street Member of

378
00:17:15.120 --> 00:17:18.040
the year. Not a

379
00:17:18.040 --> 00:17:20.960
big street either, but uh, no, good luck

380
00:17:20.960 --> 00:17:23.120
to her. And uh, congratulations to Catherine

381
00:17:23.120 --> 00:17:25.720
Bennell Pegg. This is Space

382
00:17:25.720 --> 00:17:28.280
Nuts with Andrew Dunkley and Professor

383
00:17:28.280 --> 00:17:28.760
Fred.

384
00:17:32.020 --> 00:17:34.020
Generic: Okay, we've had a problem here. This is

385
00:17:34.020 --> 00:17:35.140
Houston. Say again please.

386
00:17:35.620 --> 00:17:36.660
Andrew Dunkley: Houston, we've had a problem.

387
00:17:36.660 --> 00:17:39.020
Generic: We've had a main D bus. Roger made the

388
00:17:39.020 --> 00:17:41.220
interval. Okay, standby 13. We're looking at

389
00:17:41.220 --> 00:17:41.460
it.

390
00:17:42.980 --> 00:17:44.420
Andrew Dunkley: Do you like that, Fred? We've got some new

391
00:17:44.420 --> 00:17:47.380
links. I had a bit of time up my sleeve so

392
00:17:47.380 --> 00:17:48.700
I um, created some.

393
00:17:48.700 --> 00:17:51.340
Professor Fred Watson: New stuff that's a very appropriate one as

394
00:17:51.340 --> 00:17:51.620
well.

395
00:17:51.620 --> 00:17:53.780
Andrew Dunkley: Yes, I thought so too. Yeah.

396
00:17:53.780 --> 00:17:56.340
Uh, now our next story is

397
00:17:56.580 --> 00:17:59.390
about defining what is a moon.

398
00:17:59.470 --> 00:18:01.150
This has come about after

399
00:18:02.350 --> 00:18:04.990
a study been published, um, which

400
00:18:05.710 --> 00:18:08.710
is a, um, peer reviewed paper

401
00:18:08.710 --> 00:18:10.480
in the archive. Um,

402
00:18:11.790 --> 00:18:14.790
it's looking at a really big gas giant, but

403
00:18:14.790 --> 00:18:17.710
they think it's got a moon that could force

404
00:18:17.710 --> 00:18:19.710
us to redefine what a moon is.

405
00:18:20.510 --> 00:18:21.710
Is that the way it goes?

406
00:18:22.030 --> 00:18:24.790
Professor Fred Watson: Well, yeah, because it's big. That's

407
00:18:24.790 --> 00:18:25.070
right.

408
00:18:25.070 --> 00:18:26.190
Andrew Dunkley: I got that impression.

409
00:18:27.030 --> 00:18:29.830
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. So, um, this is

410
00:18:30.080 --> 00:18:32.790
uh, work, uh, that's been done,

411
00:18:33.150 --> 00:18:35.390
uh, uh, actually led from the University of

412
00:18:35.390 --> 00:18:38.390
Cambridge using uh, a uh, thing called

413
00:18:38.390 --> 00:18:40.910
an interferometer, which is one of these

414
00:18:40.910 --> 00:18:43.350
things that brings light waves together and

415
00:18:43.430 --> 00:18:46.420
watches them cancel out. And by, um,

416
00:18:46.630 --> 00:18:49.350
doing that carefully enough, you can uh,

417
00:18:49.350 --> 00:18:51.110
learn a lot more than you otherwise could.

418
00:18:51.450 --> 00:18:53.660
Uh, and there is an interferometer which is

419
00:18:53.660 --> 00:18:56.260
called gravity. Uh, good name for it because,

420
00:18:56.510 --> 00:18:58.750
uh, that's one of its tasks was to um,

421
00:18:59.700 --> 00:19:01.670
kind of look at the. Look at the um,

422
00:19:01.780 --> 00:19:03.740
gravitational forces around black holes,

423
00:19:03.740 --> 00:19:05.780
which is done very successfully around the

424
00:19:05.780 --> 00:19:07.540
black hole at the center of our galaxy. It's

425
00:19:07.540 --> 00:19:09.740
on the Very Large Telescope in Chile. And

426
00:19:09.740 --> 00:19:12.740
it's a way of, you will know and some

427
00:19:12.740 --> 00:19:14.460
of your listeners, sorry, some of our

428
00:19:14.460 --> 00:19:16.860
listeners will remember, uh, that the Very

429
00:19:16.860 --> 00:19:19.860
Large telescope is actually 4 8.2 meter

430
00:19:20.080 --> 00:19:22.320
uh, telescopes which can be used together,

431
00:19:22.760 --> 00:19:25.480
uh, along with um, some auxiliary telescopes

432
00:19:25.480 --> 00:19:28.480
as well. And that's uh, they're used together

433
00:19:29.040 --> 00:19:31.160
in the science of

434
00:19:31.160 --> 00:19:33.810
interferometry, which lets you uh,

435
00:19:33.840 --> 00:19:36.720
look at um, objects in space

436
00:19:36.800 --> 00:19:39.520
in very great detail. And in particular,

437
00:19:40.280 --> 00:19:42.480
uh, the scientists have been watching the

438
00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:45.170
orbit of a gas giant, uh,

439
00:19:46.080 --> 00:19:48.700
uh, exoplanet, which

440
00:19:49.020 --> 00:19:50.700
has the Lovely name of HD

441
00:19:50.700 --> 00:19:53.060
206893B. It's

442
00:19:53.060 --> 00:19:56.060
133 light years from our uh, solar system

443
00:19:56.060 --> 00:19:58.820
as the crow flies. Um, but what they've done

444
00:19:58.820 --> 00:20:01.820
is they've watched the motion of this gas

445
00:20:01.820 --> 00:20:04.620
giant, uh, uh, as it

446
00:20:04.660 --> 00:20:06.900
uh, orbits around its parent star, which is

447
00:20:06.900 --> 00:20:09.860
HD 206893 itself. The

448
00:20:09.860 --> 00:20:12.220
B refers at the end of that refers to the gas

449
00:20:12.220 --> 00:20:15.070
giant planet itself. But what they've seen is

450
00:20:15.070 --> 00:20:17.830
that the orbit of this giant planet

451
00:20:17.990 --> 00:20:20.790
is wobbling slightly as it goes around

452
00:20:21.830 --> 00:20:24.790
little, um, you know, deviations, uh, from

453
00:20:24.790 --> 00:20:27.030
a perfect ellipse which are

454
00:20:27.030 --> 00:20:29.670
interpreted uh, as being due

455
00:20:29.990 --> 00:20:32.710
to a moon. And

456
00:20:32.950 --> 00:20:35.870
by knowing the, knowing the mass of

457
00:20:35.870 --> 00:20:38.230
the, or estimating the mass of the planet

458
00:20:38.230 --> 00:20:41.110
itself, um, you can estimate the

459
00:20:41.110 --> 00:20:43.870
mass of this moon and it's, it's

460
00:20:43.870 --> 00:20:46.550
enormous. Uh, it's um, many

461
00:20:46.930 --> 00:20:49.490
times the mass. If, uh, I remember rightly,

462
00:20:49.600 --> 00:20:51.850
uh, something like nine times the mass of

463
00:20:51.850 --> 00:20:54.490
Neptune, 40% of the mass of

464
00:20:54.490 --> 00:20:57.450
Jupiter. Uh, and you

465
00:20:57.450 --> 00:20:59.090
know, when you compare that with the moons in

466
00:20:59.090 --> 00:21:01.930
our solar system, it's much, much heavier

467
00:21:01.930 --> 00:21:04.810
than anything or much, much more massive

468
00:21:04.810 --> 00:21:07.410
than anything we've got. Uh, so

469
00:21:07.810 --> 00:21:10.690
that leads to the question, well,

470
00:21:10.770 --> 00:21:12.610
you know, if you've got something that's nine

471
00:21:12.610 --> 00:21:14.690
times the mass of Neptune, could you ever

472
00:21:14.690 --> 00:21:17.370
call it a moon? Uh, but the normal definition

473
00:21:17.370 --> 00:21:19.870
of a moon or satellite is

474
00:21:20.030 --> 00:21:22.830
something that is in orbit around an object

475
00:21:22.830 --> 00:21:25.350
that is in orbit around a star. In other

476
00:21:25.350 --> 00:21:28.110
words, a planet. Um, so do we want to

477
00:21:28.110 --> 00:21:30.670
bend that definition or are we just content

478
00:21:30.750 --> 00:21:33.550
for this thing to be the most massive moon

479
00:21:33.550 --> 00:21:33.870
known?

480
00:21:34.750 --> 00:21:36.190
Andrew Dunkley: Well, where do you draw the line?

481
00:21:37.950 --> 00:21:40.310
You know, if the definition is a satellite

482
00:21:40.310 --> 00:21:43.070
orbiting at a, an object orbiting a

483
00:21:43.070 --> 00:21:45.760
star, then that's. It shouldn't matter how

484
00:21:45.760 --> 00:21:46.680
big it is, should it?

485
00:21:48.130 --> 00:21:50.360
Professor Fred Watson: Uh, no, that's right, that would be my view,

486
00:21:50.450 --> 00:21:53.280
uh, that um, you

487
00:21:53.280 --> 00:21:56.050
keep the Basically keep the definition, uh,

488
00:21:56.680 --> 00:21:59.640
as it stands, uh, what you do is you just

489
00:21:59.720 --> 00:22:02.620
extend your range of uh,

490
00:22:04.040 --> 00:22:06.680
expectancy in terms of

491
00:22:07.310 --> 00:22:09.920
uh, the size of these objects. Um,

492
00:22:10.740 --> 00:22:13.540
there's a, in fact there's a lovely comment.

493
00:22:13.540 --> 00:22:14.980
There's several comments from the lead

494
00:22:14.980 --> 00:22:17.300
author. Uh, I'm looking just to say where

495
00:22:17.300 --> 00:22:18.940
we're looking. We're looking at Daily Galaxy

496
00:22:18.940 --> 00:22:21.340
for this report, but it's a paper, uh, that's

497
00:22:21.340 --> 00:22:23.020
been published I uh, think in Monthly

498
00:22:23.020 --> 00:22:25.300
Notices, again, uh, one of the leading

499
00:22:25.300 --> 00:22:27.780
journals anyway, um, and

500
00:22:28.340 --> 00:22:30.780
the uh, you know, the, the

501
00:22:30.780 --> 00:22:33.380
quotation from Quentin Crowell, who's one of

502
00:22:33.380 --> 00:22:36.110
the authors, I think the lead author of this

503
00:22:36.110 --> 00:22:38.870
paper. Um, uh, some

504
00:22:38.870 --> 00:22:40.790
nice quotes. What we found is that

505
00:22:40.790 --> 00:22:43.590
HD20683B doesn't just

506
00:22:43.590 --> 00:22:46.070
follow a smooth orbit around its star. On top

507
00:22:46.070 --> 00:22:47.830
of that motion, it shows a small but

508
00:22:47.830 --> 00:22:50.430
measurable back and forth wobble. Wobble has

509
00:22:50.430 --> 00:22:53.270
a period of nine months and a size comparable

510
00:22:53.270 --> 00:22:55.750
to the Earth Moon distance. This kind of

511
00:22:55.750 --> 00:22:57.670
signal is exactly what you'd expect if the

512
00:22:57.670 --> 00:22:59.550
object were being tugged by an unseen

513
00:22:59.550 --> 00:23:02.350
companion such as a large moon, making this

514
00:23:02.350 --> 00:23:04.830
system a particularly intriguing

515
00:23:04.830 --> 00:23:07.020
candidate for hosting an

516
00:23:07.020 --> 00:23:09.820
exomoon. Um, and goes on

517
00:23:09.820 --> 00:23:12.300
to say um, uh,

518
00:23:13.180 --> 00:23:15.540
uh, this raises the question because of the

519
00:23:15.540 --> 00:23:17.460
mass of this moon, this naturally raises the

520
00:23:17.460 --> 00:23:19.180
question of whether such an object should

521
00:23:19.180 --> 00:23:21.700
even be called a moon. These masses, the

522
00:23:21.700 --> 00:23:24.060
distinction between a massive moon and a very

523
00:23:24.060 --> 00:23:26.940
low mass companion becomes blurred.

524
00:23:27.340 --> 00:23:29.780
However, there is currently no definition of

525
00:23:29.780 --> 00:23:32.420
an exomoon and in practice astronomers

526
00:23:32.420 --> 00:23:35.180
generally for generally refer to any object

527
00:23:35.180 --> 00:23:38.180
orbiting a planet or substellar companion

528
00:23:38.420 --> 00:23:41.140
as a moon. So that's the bottom line.

529
00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:44.220
Um, uh, there are not many known and that's

530
00:23:44.220 --> 00:23:46.980
because moons naturally are generally small

531
00:23:47.220 --> 00:23:50.140
and so their effect on their, on

532
00:23:50.140 --> 00:23:52.820
the planet around which they're orbiting is

533
00:23:53.140 --> 00:23:55.860
too small to uh, discover.

534
00:23:56.260 --> 00:23:59.140
Whereas uh, this thing is so big that its

535
00:23:59.140 --> 00:24:01.640
signal is really quite, uh,

536
00:24:01.640 --> 00:24:04.360
quite impressive. It's uh,

537
00:24:04.360 --> 00:24:06.750
sufficient for this team to

538
00:24:07.230 --> 00:24:09.710
give us the paper that we're talking about.

539
00:24:09.950 --> 00:24:12.220
Just one final quote, uh, from Kral. Uh,

540
00:24:12.990 --> 00:24:15.110
it's important to keep in mind that we're

541
00:24:15.110 --> 00:24:17.310
likely only seeing the tip of the iceberg,

542
00:24:17.470 --> 00:24:19.830
just as the first exoplanets discovered were

543
00:24:19.830 --> 00:24:21.990
the most massive ones orbiting very close to

544
00:24:21.990 --> 00:24:23.990
their stars simply because they were the

545
00:24:23.990 --> 00:24:26.630
easiest to detect. The first exomoons we

546
00:24:26.630 --> 00:24:29.390
identify are expected to be the most massive

547
00:24:29.390 --> 00:24:31.430
and extreme examples. It's a really good

548
00:24:31.430 --> 00:24:31.750
point.

549
00:24:31.830 --> 00:24:34.310
Andrew Dunkley: And there it is. And, and yet again we

550
00:24:34.470 --> 00:24:37.430
find in a potential new discovery

551
00:24:37.510 --> 00:24:40.310
that it's not what

552
00:24:40.310 --> 00:24:43.110
we would expect to be the norm. This, this is

553
00:24:43.830 --> 00:24:46.629
Another thing that we may not have

554
00:24:46.629 --> 00:24:47.430
anticipated.

555
00:24:48.560 --> 00:24:51.350
Professor Fred Watson: Uh, that's. That's right. Um, so.

556
00:24:51.830 --> 00:24:54.710
Yes. So, I mean, the point is well made.

557
00:24:54.950 --> 00:24:57.930
Quentin's point is well made that the, uh,

558
00:24:58.310 --> 00:25:00.970
the. The. That you're going to find the.

559
00:25:01.370 --> 00:25:03.650
The real outliers first because they're the

560
00:25:03.650 --> 00:25:06.600
easiest ones to find. Uh, but at, uh,

561
00:25:06.690 --> 00:25:09.140
the same time, what you've said is true. Uh,

562
00:25:09.140 --> 00:25:11.810
the outliers are sometimes so surprising that

563
00:25:11.810 --> 00:25:14.210
they're difficult to believe. Uh, but we've

564
00:25:14.210 --> 00:25:16.250
got a, um. Yeah, we've got an outlier here

565
00:25:16.250 --> 00:25:18.770
that might well be the first of a new breed

566
00:25:18.770 --> 00:25:21.490
of, uh. Or a whole new regime of

567
00:25:21.490 --> 00:25:23.130
exomoon discoveries.

568
00:25:23.290 --> 00:25:26.090
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, I didn't even think about exomoons.

569
00:25:26.090 --> 00:25:28.620
Like, we've discovered so many exoplanets

570
00:25:28.620 --> 00:25:31.540
now, and we continue to do so, but we haven't

571
00:25:31.540 --> 00:25:34.380
actually laid our eyes on an exomoon yet.

572
00:25:35.820 --> 00:25:37.860
Professor Fred Watson: No. Um, and m. In fact, we've not laid our

573
00:25:37.860 --> 00:25:39.860
eyes on most of the exoplanets. We've

574
00:25:39.860 --> 00:25:42.580
inferred their presence, uh, by indirect

575
00:25:42.580 --> 00:25:45.340
means. There are one or two, uh, that we can

576
00:25:45.340 --> 00:25:47.780
observe directly. Uh, but when you think,

577
00:25:47.780 --> 00:25:49.460
yes, moons are always going to be smaller

578
00:25:49.460 --> 00:25:51.740
than their parent planets, um,

579
00:25:52.310 --> 00:25:54.680
that means that, uh,

580
00:25:56.070 --> 00:25:58.550
we're still pushing the limits of what is

581
00:25:58.550 --> 00:26:00.550
technically possible to detect.

582
00:26:01.270 --> 00:26:04.150
Andrew Dunkley: Could we maybe redefine this discovery

583
00:26:04.150 --> 00:26:05.990
as, uh, like a dual planet?

584
00:26:07.749 --> 00:26:09.990
Professor Fred Watson: So there is a definition of a dual planet,

585
00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:12.790
um, what we call a binary planet,

586
00:26:13.260 --> 00:26:15.270
uh, which is, uh. If you have

587
00:26:15.990 --> 00:26:18.230
two objects, one orbiting the other,

588
00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:21.080
if their center of gravity, or what we call

589
00:26:21.080 --> 00:26:24.080
the barycenter, is outside the body of either

590
00:26:24.080 --> 00:26:26.800
of them, then it's a binary planet

591
00:26:26.800 --> 00:26:28.720
rather than a planet and a moon.

592
00:26:29.450 --> 00:26:31.840
Uh, and in fact,

593
00:26:32.190 --> 00:26:35.080
uh, Jupiter, sorry, Pluto and

594
00:26:35.080 --> 00:26:38.000
its moon Charon fit that bill. Pluto, of

595
00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:40.040
course, is a dwarf planet, but Pluto and

596
00:26:40.040 --> 00:26:42.680
Charon are probably a binary dwarf planet for

597
00:26:42.680 --> 00:26:43.200
that reason.

598
00:26:43.600 --> 00:26:44.950
Andrew Dunkley: Okay. Interesting.

599
00:26:44.950 --> 00:26:45.510
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.

600
00:26:45.990 --> 00:26:48.710
Andrew Dunkley: So, um, there'll be more work

601
00:26:49.430 --> 00:26:52.310
to find out exactly what the situation

602
00:26:52.390 --> 00:26:55.070
is here, because it's only suspicion at the

603
00:26:55.070 --> 00:26:55.750
moment, isn't it?

604
00:26:56.630 --> 00:26:58.870
Professor Fred Watson: That's right. There will be more observations

605
00:26:59.270 --> 00:27:01.780
to confirm that, uh, uh,

606
00:27:02.630 --> 00:27:04.990
the planet itself behaves in a way that is

607
00:27:04.990 --> 00:27:06.870
consistent with this large

608
00:27:07.750 --> 00:27:10.670
hypothesized moon. We haven't seen it

609
00:27:10.670 --> 00:27:12.070
yet. In fact, we haven't seen the planet

610
00:27:12.070 --> 00:27:15.030
either. But, uh, we can deduce

611
00:27:15.030 --> 00:27:17.050
things from, uh, know, from the way the

612
00:27:17.050 --> 00:27:17.890
orbits behave.

613
00:27:18.130 --> 00:27:20.210
Andrew Dunkley: Yes, indeed. If you'd like to read about

614
00:27:20.210 --> 00:27:22.370
that, the, uh, study's been published on the

615
00:27:22.370 --> 00:27:24.570
archive, and it has been accepted for

616
00:27:24.570 --> 00:27:27.330
publication in Astronomy and Astrophysics.

617
00:27:27.730 --> 00:27:29.570
You can also read about it on the

618
00:27:29.570 --> 00:27:32.210
dailygalaxy.com uh, website.

619
00:27:32.530 --> 00:27:35.450
This is Space Nuts with Andrew Dunkley and

620
00:27:35.450 --> 00:27:37.090
Professor Fred Watson.

621
00:27:41.330 --> 00:27:44.250
Generic: Tranquility Base here. The Eagle has landed.

622
00:27:44.250 --> 00:27:45.250
Professor Fred Watson: Space nets.

623
00:27:45.890 --> 00:27:48.770
Andrew Dunkley: Speaking of, um, big planets with big

624
00:27:48.770 --> 00:27:51.490
moons, what about big black holes,

625
00:27:51.730 --> 00:27:54.450
uh, and the fact that they get big fast. We

626
00:27:54.450 --> 00:27:56.610
have always been mystified by this

627
00:27:56.850 --> 00:27:59.730
phenomenon. Uh, uh, have they

628
00:27:59.730 --> 00:28:00.690
solved it, Fred?

629
00:28:01.730 --> 00:28:03.930
Professor Fred Watson: Uh, certainly some work that looks as though

630
00:28:03.930 --> 00:28:05.530
it's pointing in the right direction. Yeah,

631
00:28:05.530 --> 00:28:08.010
this comes about really. And it's uh, an

632
00:28:08.010 --> 00:28:10.970
issue that has uh, only arisen in the era of

633
00:28:10.970 --> 00:28:13.190
the James Webb Space Telescope when, uh,

634
00:28:13.190 --> 00:28:15.910
which has detected um,

635
00:28:15.930 --> 00:28:18.530
the evidence for supermassive black

636
00:28:18.530 --> 00:28:21.390
holes very, very early in the universe. Uh,

637
00:28:21.390 --> 00:28:23.330
until the Webb came along, we all thought

638
00:28:23.330 --> 00:28:26.250
that supermassive black holes evolved

639
00:28:26.250 --> 00:28:28.570
over timescales comparable with the age of

640
00:28:28.570 --> 00:28:30.290
the universe, that you started off with small

641
00:28:30.290 --> 00:28:33.130
black holes. And as time went on, you

642
00:28:33.130 --> 00:28:35.810
know, billions of years passing until we get

643
00:28:35.810 --> 00:28:38.610
to the universe's current age of 13.8 billion

644
00:28:38.610 --> 00:28:41.400
years, uh, that they gradually grew

645
00:28:41.400 --> 00:28:44.320
bigger to form the supermassive black holes

646
00:28:44.320 --> 00:28:46.240
that we see in today's universe. But when you

647
00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:48.560
look further back, further out into space, as

648
00:28:48.560 --> 00:28:50.360
the Webb has done, you're looking further

649
00:28:50.360 --> 00:28:52.240
back in time. We're now seeing within a few

650
00:28:52.240 --> 00:28:54.640
hundred million years of the Big Bang itself.

651
00:28:54.640 --> 00:28:57.080
And we find these supermassive black holes

652
00:28:57.320 --> 00:29:00.000
already there. Um, and that's the

653
00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:01.840
puzzle. That's the conundrum. How did they

654
00:29:01.840 --> 00:29:03.960
get so big so rapidly?

655
00:29:04.680 --> 00:29:06.050
And the.

656
00:29:06.530 --> 00:29:09.010
Andrew Dunkley: So, so they, they went to McDonald's. That's

657
00:29:09.010 --> 00:29:09.490
what they did.

658
00:29:12.110 --> 00:29:14.690
Professor Fred Watson: Uh, the McDonald's of the early universe.

659
00:29:14.690 --> 00:29:16.890
Yes. There must be a, must be a name for

660
00:29:16.890 --> 00:29:17.170
that.

661
00:29:17.350 --> 00:29:17.530
Generic: Um.

662
00:29:19.250 --> 00:29:21.570
Professor Fred Watson: Fast food. That's what it's not. It's fast

663
00:29:21.570 --> 00:29:23.890
food. Yeah, I was going to work on drive

664
00:29:23.890 --> 00:29:25.810
through somehow, but that doesn't scan quite

665
00:29:25.810 --> 00:29:28.770
the same way as fast food does. It is

666
00:29:28.770 --> 00:29:31.290
fast food. That's exactly. In fact, that sums

667
00:29:31.290 --> 00:29:33.930
up the, the research paper by this team of

668
00:29:33.930 --> 00:29:35.810
scientists who are actually based in Ireland,

669
00:29:37.470 --> 00:29:40.350
uh, sums up their work very, very succinctly.

670
00:29:40.590 --> 00:29:43.070
So the issue is, uh, that

671
00:29:43.590 --> 00:29:46.550
uh, as we, as the, you know, so

672
00:29:46.550 --> 00:29:49.510
what we've got is this observations, set

673
00:29:49.510 --> 00:29:52.110
of observations tells us that black holes

674
00:29:52.190 --> 00:29:55.070
got supermassive very quickly. And

675
00:29:55.470 --> 00:29:58.150
that's a puzzle for the theoretical

676
00:29:58.150 --> 00:30:01.070
astronomers who work out how

677
00:30:01.310 --> 00:30:04.030
galaxies work, how galaxies form, how black

678
00:30:04.030 --> 00:30:06.670
holes form, uh, and all of that

679
00:30:06.830 --> 00:30:09.590
great stuff in the early universe. And

680
00:30:09.830 --> 00:30:12.630
what um, has been the point

681
00:30:12.790 --> 00:30:15.790
that they've struggled with is that if

682
00:30:15.790 --> 00:30:18.310
a black hole starts eating

683
00:30:19.750 --> 00:30:22.190
the surrounding material, which is how they

684
00:30:22.190 --> 00:30:24.950
grow the gas and Dust that surrounds them.

685
00:30:25.029 --> 00:30:27.830
If they start eating that too quickly,

686
00:30:28.150 --> 00:30:30.630
in other words, quickly enough to grow into a

687
00:30:30.630 --> 00:30:32.990
supermassive black hole very quickly. What

688
00:30:32.990 --> 00:30:35.590
happens is um, the radiation

689
00:30:35.670 --> 00:30:38.630
generated by this swirling mass of stuff

690
00:30:38.870 --> 00:30:41.690
getting sucked in actually stops

691
00:30:41.930 --> 00:30:44.810
the process. It quenches the process

692
00:30:44.810 --> 00:30:47.530
of uh, accretion and the black

693
00:30:47.530 --> 00:30:50.410
holes growing. That's the way the

694
00:30:50.410 --> 00:30:53.370
theory has uh, appeared so far.

695
00:30:53.930 --> 00:30:56.730
But what the Irish astronomers have done

696
00:30:57.210 --> 00:30:59.530
is um, they've

697
00:30:59.690 --> 00:31:02.650
looked at the sort of general

698
00:31:02.810 --> 00:31:05.530
turbulence of the gas in the

699
00:31:05.530 --> 00:31:08.480
early universe, uh, as a background

700
00:31:08.720 --> 00:31:10.320
to the

701
00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:14.200
feeding black hole. And it turns

702
00:31:14.200 --> 00:31:17.200
out that if the universe

703
00:31:17.280 --> 00:31:20.160
is um, a lot more

704
00:31:20.650 --> 00:31:23.400
uh, chaotic, turbulent, very

705
00:31:23.400 --> 00:31:26.080
violent motions in the background gas, if

706
00:31:26.080 --> 00:31:28.920
you've got a black hole in an

707
00:31:28.920 --> 00:31:31.680
environment like that, um, it

708
00:31:31.680 --> 00:31:34.160
turns out that they can actually uh,

709
00:31:34.520 --> 00:31:37.400
absorb huge amounts of gas and

710
00:31:37.400 --> 00:31:40.200
so they can grow much faster than we

711
00:31:40.200 --> 00:31:43.200
originally thought. Uh, so, um, one

712
00:31:43.200 --> 00:31:46.040
of the authors, uh, of this paper,

713
00:31:46.470 --> 00:31:49.399
uh, there's a quote here, um, this is

714
00:31:49.399 --> 00:31:51.320
scitech Daily that uh, is carrying this

715
00:31:51.320 --> 00:31:54.200
story. But uh, the, the research is in one of

716
00:31:54.200 --> 00:31:55.600
the research papers, this is one of the

717
00:31:55.600 --> 00:31:58.120
authors saying we found that the chaotic

718
00:31:58.120 --> 00:32:01.040
conditions that existed in the early universe

719
00:32:01.040 --> 00:32:03.800
triggered early smaller black holes

720
00:32:03.800 --> 00:32:05.900
to grow into the supermarket. Massive black

721
00:32:05.900 --> 00:32:08.580
holes we see later. Following a feeding

722
00:32:08.580 --> 00:32:11.580
frenzy which devoured all the material

723
00:32:11.580 --> 00:32:14.380
around them, we revealed using state of the

724
00:32:14.380 --> 00:32:16.700
art computer simulations that the first

725
00:32:16.700 --> 00:32:18.980
generation of black holes, those born just a

726
00:32:18.980 --> 00:32:20.820
few hundred million years after the Big Bang,

727
00:32:20.980 --> 00:32:23.860
grew incredibly fast into tens

728
00:32:23.860 --> 00:32:26.580
of thousands of times the size of our Sun.

729
00:32:27.260 --> 00:32:28.660
Uh, and another comment,

730
00:32:30.160 --> 00:32:32.100
uh, from one of the other team members. This

731
00:32:32.100 --> 00:32:34.340
breakthrough unlocks one of astronomy's big

732
00:32:34.340 --> 00:32:37.210
puzzles, that being how black holes born in

733
00:32:37.360 --> 00:32:39.320
early universe are observed by the James Webb

734
00:32:39.320 --> 00:32:42.080
Space Telescope, uh, as observed by the James

735
00:32:42.080 --> 00:32:44.800
Webb Space Telescope, managed to reach such

736
00:32:45.040 --> 00:32:47.960
supermassive sizes so quickly. So

737
00:32:47.960 --> 00:32:49.600
maybe that's the answer to the puzzle,

738
00:32:49.600 --> 00:32:50.160
Andrew.

739
00:32:50.320 --> 00:32:52.560
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, they ate too much too fast.

740
00:32:54.160 --> 00:32:55.600
Professor Fred Watson: That's right. Fast food.

741
00:32:56.240 --> 00:32:58.280
Andrew Dunkley: And then they get indigestion and then they

742
00:32:58.280 --> 00:32:59.760
have those, you know.

743
00:32:59.760 --> 00:33:01.520
Professor Fred Watson: Well, I think that was the problem before,

744
00:33:01.760 --> 00:33:04.280
uh, that you know, they got indigestion and

745
00:33:04.280 --> 00:33:07.120
so they stopped the process. But what these,

746
00:33:07.410 --> 00:33:09.810
these authors are saying is that if you put

747
00:33:09.810 --> 00:33:12.250
them in a really turbulent um,

748
00:33:12.930 --> 00:33:15.930
you know, field of gas, which

749
00:33:15.930 --> 00:33:18.210
we think was in the early universe, then

750
00:33:18.290 --> 00:33:21.050
things change. They don't get indigestion,

751
00:33:21.050 --> 00:33:22.290
they just go for it.

752
00:33:22.370 --> 00:33:25.090
Andrew Dunkley: They just eat and eat. They don't, don't

753
00:33:25.090 --> 00:33:26.130
notice that they're full.

754
00:33:27.090 --> 00:33:27.810
Professor Fred Watson: That's right.

755
00:33:27.810 --> 00:33:29.570
Andrew Dunkley: And keep eating like a goldfish.

756
00:33:29.730 --> 00:33:30.290
Professor Fred Watson: That's.

757
00:33:30.290 --> 00:33:32.490
Andrew Dunkley: Goldfish have that problem. That's what they

758
00:33:32.490 --> 00:33:34.210
say. Um, that's why they're so blobby

759
00:33:34.210 --> 00:33:34.490
looking.

760
00:33:34.730 --> 00:33:36.410
Professor Fred Watson: No, they don't want to stop eating.

761
00:33:36.490 --> 00:33:37.530
Andrew Dunkley: No, they don't. No.

762
00:33:37.770 --> 00:33:39.890
Professor Fred Watson: Apparently because they can't remember when

763
00:33:39.890 --> 00:33:40.650
they started eating.

764
00:33:42.810 --> 00:33:45.490
Andrew Dunkley: I don't believe that theory that goldfish

765
00:33:45.490 --> 00:33:47.210
only have a three minute memory because I

766
00:33:47.210 --> 00:33:50.010
used to keep goldfish and they knew who

767
00:33:50.010 --> 00:33:52.530
fed them because they always reacted when you

768
00:33:52.530 --> 00:33:55.330
went near the tank. Uh, the time to be. Time

769
00:33:55.330 --> 00:33:57.450
for food. Time for food. They're like dogs,

770
00:33:57.690 --> 00:34:00.240
except you can't take them for a walk. They

771
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:01.080
tend to buy.

772
00:34:01.080 --> 00:34:01.720
Professor Fred Watson: Not yet.

773
00:34:04.200 --> 00:34:06.920
Got to take their bowl with them as well. If

774
00:34:06.920 --> 00:34:08.320
you try. Exactly.

775
00:34:08.320 --> 00:34:09.720
Andrew Dunkley: You put them in a dog bowl.

776
00:34:10.040 --> 00:34:10.920
Professor Fred Watson: Fill it with water.

777
00:34:11.160 --> 00:34:13.920
Andrew Dunkley: No, uh, let's not go there. Uh, but that's a

778
00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:16.560
fascinating story and, uh, another one that

779
00:34:16.560 --> 00:34:19.190
will probably be subject to future analysis.

780
00:34:19.190 --> 00:34:20.560
Uh, I imagine.

781
00:34:20.560 --> 00:34:21.800
Professor Fred Watson: Yep, that's right.

782
00:34:21.960 --> 00:34:23.840
Andrew Dunkley: If you'd like to read about it, as Fred said,

783
00:34:23.840 --> 00:34:26.400
it's in scitechdaily.com or you can read the

784
00:34:26.400 --> 00:34:28.600
entire paper, start to finish, if you're

785
00:34:28.600 --> 00:34:31.030
having trouble falling asleep. And that's in

786
00:34:31.030 --> 00:34:34.030
nature astronomy. Oh, dear. Um,

787
00:34:34.230 --> 00:34:36.070
we're just about done, Fred. Thank you very

788
00:34:36.070 --> 00:34:36.390
much.

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00:34:36.790 --> 00:34:39.110
Professor Fred Watson: Oh, a pleasure, Andrew. Always good to talk.

790
00:34:39.190 --> 00:34:41.190
And, um, we'll see you next time.

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00:34:41.350 --> 00:34:43.630
Andrew Dunkley: We will. Professor Fred Watson, Astronomer at

792
00:34:43.630 --> 00:34:45.990
large. Don't forget to visit us online in the

793
00:34:45.990 --> 00:34:48.990
meantime@spacenutspodcast.com or

794
00:34:48.990 --> 00:34:51.910
spacenuts IO you can have a

795
00:34:51.910 --> 00:34:53.670
look around. You can visit the shop, you can

796
00:34:53.670 --> 00:34:56.430
sign up for the daily news feed. Uh,

797
00:34:56.630 --> 00:34:58.790
if you hit the supporter page. There are ways

798
00:34:58.790 --> 00:35:01.430
to support us if you so desire. We will never

799
00:35:01.730 --> 00:35:04.730
make you do it. It's voluntary. And plenty of

800
00:35:04.730 --> 00:35:06.530
other things to see and do. And don't forget

801
00:35:06.530 --> 00:35:08.250
our social media while you're at it, the

802
00:35:08.250 --> 00:35:10.850
Space Nuts Facebook page or the

803
00:35:10.930 --> 00:35:13.730
podcast group on, uh, Facebook.

804
00:35:13.730 --> 00:35:15.610
They're very active. Always new members

805
00:35:15.610 --> 00:35:18.050
joining there. We're on Instagram as well.

806
00:35:18.530 --> 00:35:20.810
And I was going to say something else. Oh,

807
00:35:20.810 --> 00:35:23.490
no, I can't remember. Anyway, um, that's just

808
00:35:23.490 --> 00:35:25.330
about it. Um, also thanks to Huw in the

809
00:35:25.330 --> 00:35:27.950
studio who couldn't be with us today. He's,

810
00:35:27.950 --> 00:35:30.910
um, gone out to uh, the back to uh, to

811
00:35:30.910 --> 00:35:33.270
brood for not being named Australian of the

812
00:35:33.270 --> 00:35:35.750
Year. And from me, Andrew Dunkley. Thanks for

813
00:35:35.750 --> 00:35:37.550
your company. See you on the next episode of

814
00:35:37.550 --> 00:35:38.870
SpaceNuts. Bye bye.

815
00:35:40.230 --> 00:35:42.430
You've been listening to the Space Nuts

816
00:35:42.430 --> 00:35:45.390
podcast available at

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player. You can also stream on

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demand@bytes.com. this has been another

821
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quality podcast production from

822
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bytes.um.com.