Black Holes, Dark Matter Mysteries & Cosmic Questions from the Netherlands

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Andrew Dunkley: Hello again. Thanks for joining us. This is Space

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Nuts, where we talk astronomy and space

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science. And it's good to have your company on this

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Q and A edition. And what are we

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talking about today? Oh, uh, something completely different, new

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and unchallenged in the annals of

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Space Nuts and the wider world of astronomy.

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Uh, somebody's got a black hole question,

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and the next question is a dark matter question.

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These, they, they just dovetail beautifully, those two.

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And then we, uh, we've got a bit of a Dutch treat for you.

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Uh, Robert from the Netherlands is asking about the

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Fermi paradox, and Angela from the Netherlands

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has a, um, an idea to send bugs into

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space on purpose. We'll talk about all

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of that on this edition of space nuts.

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15 seconds.

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Voice Over Guy: Guidance is internal. 10,

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9. Ignition sequence time.

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Space nuts. 5, 4, 3. 2. 1,

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2, 3, 4, 5. Very good one.

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Space nuts. Astronauts report it feels

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good.

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Andrew Dunkley: And joining us again to solve all of those little riddles

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is Professor Fred Watson Watson, astronomer at large, still wearing

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the same shirt as he was last. Hello, Fred Watson.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, I only. I only change my shirts

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once a week, apparently.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, well, I do that on holidays because,

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uh.

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Although, although on our, on our cruise we, um,

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we did all our own washing because. Well, they

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charge you to do washing on a, on a cruise ship if you, if you

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want them to do it. But, uh, they had laundries on this ship, so we

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did our own, which turned out to be a very good thing.

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So, um, it sort of, uh, were.

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Professor Fred Watson: Well on. You're on board for 13 weeks, weren't you? 13

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weeks is a little bit long to keep the same shirt.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. Basically it's pretty tough wearing the same

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pair of undies for 13 weeks and

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expecting people to actually sit down and have dinner with you.

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It's, it's not.

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Not, uh, not advised. Not advised.

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Professor Fred Watson: No, this helps. We've tried it, actually.

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Andrew Dunkley: No, I haven't. No, I haven't.

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Professor Fred Watson: Your wife wouldn't let you do that?

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Andrew Dunkley: No, uh, no. Uh, definitely not.

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Um, now, uh, we've got a bunch of questions to get

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through, and we.

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Professor Fred Watson: Might as well get the ball rolling.

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Andrew Dunkley: With Dave, who has a question

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related to black holes.

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Speaker C: Hey, Professor Fred Watson Watson, Andrew

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and. Or Heidi, whoever this may be.

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Um, got a question about black holes, like all

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my other questions. I've been watching a lot

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of documentaries and something

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that still questions me is

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black holes, do they move or are they stationary?

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And if they do move,

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do they move through space and time

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or space time, like the fabric of space?

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And if so, are they eating the Fabric of space? Or

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is it just going around the black hole and then back into

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place? How come we don't see trails

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behind the black holes where they've just eaten away fabric of

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space? Um,

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not quite sure how that works or anything like that.

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Professor Fred Watson: And if.

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Speaker C: If they all do rotate, which we think they do,

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do they rotationally

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pull on the fabric of space?

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Professor Fred Watson: Thank you.

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Andrew Dunkley: Okay, great, uh, question. Thank you, Dave.

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And, uh, we'll get a great answer. Now,

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although it's an interesting question. We, um,

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from my perspective, and I think we have

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touched on this before, everything moves

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in space. Nothing is standing still, is it?

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Professor Fred Watson: No, you're right, Andrew. That's exactly the. That's exactly the answer

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I was about to give.

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Andrew Dunkley: Oh, okay. Thanks, Dave.

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Next question comes from.

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Professor Fred Watson: Um, let's just, um, cover

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Dave's last part of that question first, which is

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trials. Do they. It was where

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if black holes are rotating, do they. The

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space time kind of. Do they drag it round? And

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indeed they do. It's a process called frame dragging.

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Um, the Earth does it actually. So any rotating object,

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dragon, drags the framework of space time around

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with it. And I think the same happens with black holes. I think

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we covered a story, um,

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probably a couple of years ago, maybe, Andrew,

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which was about a demonstration that

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black holes, rotating black holes do,

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um, exhibit frame dragging, that

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space time does sort of get dragged around with them.

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Uh, so having said

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that, um, then the

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idea of black holes moving through

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space is not, I guess, that difficult.

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Uh, and indeed they do exactly as you've said, Andrew. Everything

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moves, uh, and it's twofold. One is

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that they're being carried along by space itself,

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what we call the Hubble flow, which is due to the expansion

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of the universe. And I think Dave touched on that by

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talking about, you know, the fabric of space time.

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Yes, the fabric of space time itself is moving and

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takes stuff along with it. Um,

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but, uh, uh, galaxies

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we know, have what we call peculiar velocities.

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Uh, they actually move around, um,

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within the moving fabric of space.

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Excuse me. The analogue that we often give

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is, uh, to liken the expansion of the universe to a

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river flowing. And the galaxies being like people

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zooming around the river on, um, boats, they're being carried along by

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the river flow, but they still move around with their own

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peculiar motion. And galaxies do that too.

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Not perhaps zipping around quite like boats do.

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Uh, but, uh, they're drawn to one another by their own

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gravity. Uh, so they do move through space. And

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yes, um, a black hole will move

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through the space time that it's in, but it

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won't leave a trail behind it. Um,

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the space time bends around it just as Dave

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suggested. There. Uh, as it goes through

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it's distorting the space time. But you, uh, know,

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the space time sort of recovers as it's gone past.

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So it's not like there'll be a wake that we could look

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for trailing behind supermassive, uh, black

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holes. Interesting idea though.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yes. Yeah, it'd be. It'd be so easy to find them if they

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left trails.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, that's right, it would.

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Andrew Dunkley: That's how you chase snails, you know, if

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you're a snail hunter.

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Professor Fred Watson: Well, I'm sure you do. Yeah. We get, um,

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on damp days, uh, we occasionally get invaded by

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slugs in our, in our laundry and bay leaf

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trams as well, which are based.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.

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Professor Fred Watson: Where were we the other day?

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Andrew Dunkley: Um, and walked outside because it had been raining and

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there were slugs the size of sausage dogs,

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uh, that were, they were enormous.

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Was in the United States somewhere up in, uh, up around

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Buffalo, I think, somewhere.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. Um, big boogers.

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Andrew Dunkley: Oh, no. Was it Niagara Falls? There's Niagara

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Falls. They were like this, like, you

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know, you could wrap them around your head if you were so inclined, get

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a.

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Professor Fred Watson: Decent meal out of one of them.

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Andrew Dunkley: Oh yeah.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yes.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yum. M. Um, although that reminds me,

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while we were overseas, I think it was when we were in Spain.

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Listen to me. Name dropping. Um, the,

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um, um. One of the staff on the

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ship was doing a presentation about our next stop and she said, while

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you're there, go and get some of this stuff. And it was, it was like a skin

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cream and that had snail slime in it.

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My wife bought some and is still using it.

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Uh, she thinks it's fabulous. So there you are.

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There's something to that. Go and rub snails on your face.

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Uh, and by the way, that, uh, that store, that

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story you referred to from a couple of years ago,

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uh, was, uh, about frame dragging,

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uh, of supermassive black holes. Was uh.

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May 2024. There you are.

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Professor Fred Watson: Okay. Hm. There you go. The memory's not quite

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gone yet, but it will eventually.

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Andrew Dunkley: I do recall us talking about it. Uh,

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thanks, David, for your question.

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Our next question comes from Jared in

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Melbourne. Hi, Fred Watson, Heidi, Huw, Dave. Just kidding,

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Andrew. Thank you. They haven't gotten the Dave thing, have they?

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They haven't let that one go three months away. That one

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would die its natural death. But no, it's just

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popped itself up again. Um, we

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talk about galaxies having halos of dark

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matter gravitationally bound to them, thus

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affecting their rotational rate as

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compared to the predicted rotation rates.

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Uh, centre edge. Yeah.

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Okay. Uh,

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so then, while wondering if the sun

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has a portion of dark matter gravitationally bound

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to it, I read that people think it's m.

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Not much of a halo at all for something like

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the sun. As dark matter particles are moving

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too fast to be captured by the sun. I'm very interested

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to know why people, uh, might expect

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dark matter to be moving too fast to be captured

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by the sun when we have so few insights

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about what it is at all. How do they conclude

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it's whizzing around faster than escape

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velocity. Uh, keen to get your thoughts. Keep up

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the great work. Jared from

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Melbourne.

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Professor Fred Watson: And a great question which doesn't um,

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really have an answer. Uh, okay.

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Um, and that's because we know so little about

250
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dark matter. M It's

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certainly the

252
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thinking a few years ago was

253
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that dark matter halos

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have a minimum size or blobs of dark matter have a

255
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minimum size. And as Gerard suggests, that would

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be related to the, the velocity of the dark

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matter particles. Um, you know what that

258
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minimum size would be, uh, if the,

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the faster the particles are moving, the bigger the blob of dark matter.

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I seem to remember a number being

261
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touted around which was about 100 parsecs and a

262
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parsec is, was it 3.23

263
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light years? I can never get the exact number. It's about three light

264
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years. So roughly 300 light years.

265
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However, I think there have been more recent

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observations that suggest that it might be

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clumpier than that it might clump together on smaller

268
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scales. Um, however, having said

269
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that, I think it is probably unlikely

270
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though that the sun itself would have

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uh, its own lump of dark matter. I think the, you

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know, the sun's neighbourhood and the spiral

273
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arms that were embedded in

274
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might, might have higher

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density chunks, uh, of dark matter

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than perhaps the outer halo of the

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galaxy. Uh, but if it's,

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you know, if those early measurements are anything like realistic, then

279
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it would be on a scale of hundreds of light years

280
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rather than um, hundreds of millions of

281
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kilometres, which is what you'd need for it to be

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within bound to the solar system. So

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uh, we don't really know the answer to your question,

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Gerard, but um, people do think about it.

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It's one of the big issues and

286
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uh, one of the challenges is how do you plot, how do you

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map the biggest or smallest chunk of dark

288
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matter? Um, when

289
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the best way to see it is

290
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um, to look at the

291
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distortion effect of say a cluster of

292
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galaxies in the foreground and look at how that distorts the

293
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images of Galax is in the background because the

294
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distortion is due to all the mass in the cluster, not

295
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just the mass you can see that allows you to map the

296
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dark matter in a cluster. Um, but

297
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it doesn't really, unless you've got some very

298
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special circumstances, it doesn't really make

299
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it easy to say just how big

300
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or small the biggest lump of dark matter the

301
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characteristic lump size of dark

302
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matter might be. So we're still working on

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it, uh, and maybe we'll get back to you when we know the answer.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, well you never know a parsec

305
00:14:25.180 --> 00:14:27.500
is equal to 3.26 light years.

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Professor Fred Watson: I think I said 3.23 didn't I? And that's wrong.

307
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Well it's close. 3.3. It's close. Yeah. I can never

308
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remember the last number in that. 3.26 should

309
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really, it's easy to remember because three times two

310
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is six. So that should tell you, shouldn't it.

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Andrew Dunkley: On there, you know.

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Professor Fred Watson: Uh, well all I've got to do.

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Andrew Dunkley: Is remember that test you next week.

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Professor Fred Watson: Thanks. That's Dave. Thanks

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00:14:52.820 --> 00:14:55.620
Dave. I always appreciate your tests.

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Andrew Dunkley: Okay, uh, thanks Jared for your question.

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This is Space Nuts Andrew Dunkley here with Professor Fred Watson

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00:15:03.580 --> 00:15:04.180
Watson.

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Space Nuts. Uh, now uh, welcome

320
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to the Dutch part of our show where

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uh, all the questions come from the Netherlands and the first one

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is from Robert.

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Professor Fred Watson: Hey Professor.

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Andrew Dunkley: No it's not. This one is.

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Professor Fred Watson: Hello Fred Watson, Andrew and Heidi. This is Robert

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from the Netherlands. I have a question

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about the resolution to the Fermi paradox.

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What could be the most credible answer to this

329
00:15:29.720 --> 00:15:32.720
conundrum? Is it because the rare earth

330
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theory that their civilizations of aliens are very

331
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very rare? Are they very hostile and there's a destroy

332
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everything around us? Are they simply too far away

333
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and they stop expanding after a couple of planets

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or are we alone in the universe? I would love to hear the

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professor's opinion. Thank you so much.

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00:15:52.030 --> 00:15:54.580
Andrew Dunkley: Thank you Robert. Um,

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00:15:54.750 --> 00:15:57.709
it brings up that age old question which I'm sure

338
00:15:57.790 --> 00:16:00.190
you were going to ask question,

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00:16:00.510 --> 00:16:01.710
where is everybody?

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00:16:02.750 --> 00:16:05.510
Professor Fred Watson: Well that's right, that was the um, that's the basis of the

341
00:16:05.510 --> 00:16:08.510
Fermi paradox. Yeah, passed in 1950. And

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the logic, uh, Enrico Fermi's logic was

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if you have space

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faring civilizations um,

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which uh, evolved you know, maybe a few

346
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billion years ago, um, then there should be

347
00:16:24.020 --> 00:16:26.980
evidence for them everywhere. And

348
00:16:27.620 --> 00:16:30.500
we don't see it, uh, we don't see any evidence.

349
00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:32.820
Uh, that evidence might be in the form of

350
00:16:33.780 --> 00:16:36.540
artefacts. If they've sent things into

351
00:16:36.540 --> 00:16:39.470
orbit around, you know, the solar systems and there's at

352
00:16:39.470 --> 00:16:42.270
least one person on our planet who thinks that's happened already.

353
00:16:43.230 --> 00:16:45.160
Avi Loeb with some of these um,

354
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extraterrestrial asteroids and comet comets,

355
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probably all three of them anyway. Ah

356
00:16:51.150 --> 00:16:54.150
so but we don't have any real evidence that that's the

357
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case. And I think I would lump

358
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together Robert's first and last

359
00:16:59.310 --> 00:17:01.790
options there where he

360
00:17:02.030 --> 00:17:04.760
spoke about the Earth being in incredibly or

361
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Earth like conditions being incredibly rare

362
00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:10.520
so that intelligent life might be incredibly

363
00:17:10.520 --> 00:17:13.400
rare or his Last option. That it's

364
00:17:13.400 --> 00:17:15.960
unique, that we are unique in the universe.

365
00:17:16.540 --> 00:17:19.479
Um, those two are not that different from one

366
00:17:19.479 --> 00:17:22.400
another. Um, because either way, you know,

367
00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:25.000
if, if you've only got one civilization,

368
00:17:25.480 --> 00:17:28.200
communicable civilization per galaxy,

369
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um, um, and then you might as well forget it.

370
00:17:31.880 --> 00:17:33.640
You're alone in the universe, basically.

371
00:17:35.240 --> 00:17:38.040
Which, um, I think is. I uh, think

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that is disturbing because it

373
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means, you know, if we wipe ourselves out

374
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or if we become extinct through whatever process,

375
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uh, we are, we are how the

376
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universe thinks about itself. That's, I think that's a quote

377
00:17:52.840 --> 00:17:55.740
from Brian Cox. Life is what lets

378
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the universe understand itself. Um,

379
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and um, if we, if

380
00:18:01.580 --> 00:18:04.380
we're gone and uh. Well, and we're the only species

381
00:18:04.380 --> 00:18:07.300
in the universe that can understand it, what's the rest of it for?

382
00:18:08.020 --> 00:18:10.580
Well, a bit of a, bit of a pain.

383
00:18:11.060 --> 00:18:13.780
Andrew Dunkley: Well, yeah, but it brings about,

384
00:18:14.060 --> 00:18:17.060
um, you know, you can get into areas of

385
00:18:17.060 --> 00:18:18.260
theology then. And um,

386
00:18:20.340 --> 00:18:21.380
then that's one

387
00:18:23.780 --> 00:18:26.610
um, idea that uh, is well documented and

388
00:18:26.610 --> 00:18:28.570
well supported. Uh, creationism.

389
00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:32.090
Uh, we could just be

390
00:18:32.090 --> 00:18:34.170
one freak accident that.

391
00:18:35.370 --> 00:18:36.650
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, that's fair.

392
00:18:37.370 --> 00:18:40.370
Andrew Dunkley: And the universe existing in

393
00:18:40.370 --> 00:18:42.930
itself is the greatest mystery. How is their

394
00:18:42.930 --> 00:18:45.930
existence? I think I've asked that question before and no one's

395
00:18:45.930 --> 00:18:46.730
ever told me the answer.

396
00:18:46.970 --> 00:18:49.930
Professor Fred Watson: It's a philosophical question. It is, yeah.

397
00:18:50.580 --> 00:18:53.350
Um, I mean it's uh, you know, there's um,

398
00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:56.160
there's a quantum physics answer to that as well.

399
00:18:56.160 --> 00:18:59.040
If, if um, if we

400
00:18:59.040 --> 00:19:01.920
weren't there to perceive the universe, would the

401
00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:04.310
universe still exist? Because, um,

402
00:19:04.800 --> 00:19:07.720
in quantum mechanics it looks as though the

403
00:19:07.720 --> 00:19:10.520
observer plays a significant role in the nature of

404
00:19:10.520 --> 00:19:13.160
reality. And that's why scientists are

405
00:19:13.160 --> 00:19:16.040
constantly looking for a theory that underpins both quantum

406
00:19:16.040 --> 00:19:17.730
physics, quantum mechanics and

407
00:19:18.530 --> 00:19:19.900
relativity. Uh,

408
00:19:21.410 --> 00:19:24.370
the grand unifying theory, which we haven't got yet,

409
00:19:24.760 --> 00:19:27.410
uh, that might tell us whether the observer is

410
00:19:27.410 --> 00:19:30.330
necessary, uh, in terms of the

411
00:19:30.330 --> 00:19:32.970
well being of the universe. This raises

412
00:19:32.970 --> 00:19:35.690
extraordinary questions. Uh, but I think

413
00:19:35.690 --> 00:19:38.490
it's certainly my thinking, and this comes from talking to

414
00:19:38.490 --> 00:19:41.210
astrobiologists who think, you know, that step

415
00:19:41.210 --> 00:19:43.720
from um, from single celled

416
00:19:43.720 --> 00:19:46.400
organisms to multi celled organisms could be a

417
00:19:46.960 --> 00:19:49.800
really rare step. Uh, then perhaps

418
00:19:49.800 --> 00:19:52.680
we are very rare. Perhaps we are a freak of

419
00:19:52.680 --> 00:19:55.220
nature. Um, it's uh.

420
00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:58.319
I would lean towards that rather than the idea that life is

421
00:19:58.319 --> 00:20:01.240
everywhere, uh, and think that the answer to

422
00:20:01.240 --> 00:20:04.080
the Fermi paradox. Where is everybody? Well, they're just not there,

423
00:20:04.080 --> 00:20:06.320
most of them. Yeah, yeah, they're not there.

424
00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:09.520
Andrew Dunkley: Well, there may not be peoples, but there may be

425
00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:12.240
bacterial life of some kind or.

426
00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:15.180
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, that's right. But. And that might turn out

427
00:20:15.180 --> 00:20:18.060
to be quite common, but it needn't necessarily evolve

428
00:20:18.060 --> 00:20:20.180
into anything more substantial.

429
00:20:20.500 --> 00:20:23.380
Andrew Dunkley: No, no, definitely not. And if you're looking

430
00:20:23.380 --> 00:20:26.300
for aliens, as you said, if they've been around long enough, we

431
00:20:26.300 --> 00:20:29.059
should see the evidence, uh, whether it be a,

432
00:20:29.300 --> 00:20:32.060
um, passing spacecraft or a, uh,

433
00:20:32.060 --> 00:20:34.340
megastructure of some kind that we

434
00:20:34.900 --> 00:20:37.700
might see around a planet or a star or

435
00:20:37.700 --> 00:20:39.410
a, um, uh,

436
00:20:40.900 --> 00:20:43.570
conspicuous gas in their atmosphere. That

437
00:20:43.880 --> 00:20:46.840
couldn't be natural, things like that. But we haven't found any

438
00:20:46.840 --> 00:20:47.240
of that.

439
00:20:47.800 --> 00:20:50.400
Professor Fred Watson: Airport radar. Uh, airport

440
00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:53.120
radar, yes. Square kilometre array able to

441
00:20:53.120 --> 00:20:55.720
detect airport radar at 50 light years. So

442
00:20:56.040 --> 00:20:59.040
once it comes on stream, we might

443
00:20:59.040 --> 00:21:00.840
know we're alone within 50 light years.

444
00:21:01.160 --> 00:21:03.640
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, well, that is it exactly.

445
00:21:04.460 --> 00:21:06.840
Uh, so, Robert. No, um, yes,

446
00:21:07.320 --> 00:21:09.880
we're still alone at this point in time. And,

447
00:21:09.900 --> 00:21:12.850
um. Yes, and we're feeling it. We really are.

448
00:21:14.360 --> 00:21:17.330
Um, but I, I sort

449
00:21:17.330 --> 00:21:20.330
of err on the side of caution when it comes to revealing

450
00:21:20.330 --> 00:21:20.850
our presence.

451
00:21:20.850 --> 00:21:21.210
Professor Fred Watson: I'm.

452
00:21:21.210 --> 00:21:22.610
Andrew Dunkley: I'm a little bit with, um,

453
00:21:23.970 --> 00:21:26.890
Stephen. Stephen Hawking. Uh, yeah, you

454
00:21:26.890 --> 00:21:29.810
don't want to make too big a noise just in case they go,

455
00:21:29.810 --> 00:21:31.970
oh, that's a lovely place. We'll have that.

456
00:21:32.770 --> 00:21:35.570
So the British and the Portuguese did so.

457
00:21:35.890 --> 00:21:38.870
And the Dutch. And the Dutch. Our last two

458
00:21:38.870 --> 00:21:41.790
people are Dutch, my wife's Dutch, so I can get away with

459
00:21:41.790 --> 00:21:42.510
things like that.

460
00:21:43.230 --> 00:21:45.150
Professor Fred Watson: The, um, yeah, the.

461
00:21:45.630 --> 00:21:47.950
Andrew Dunkley: And, uh, the French. I mean, the French did it too.

462
00:21:48.750 --> 00:21:51.750
Professor Fred Watson: We, we, um, we're already, you

463
00:21:51.750 --> 00:21:54.670
know, we've already given it away because we've got airport

464
00:21:54.670 --> 00:21:55.610
radar. Uh.

465
00:21:57.390 --> 00:22:00.390
Andrew Dunkley: Yes, we have. Yes, we have. Thanks, Robert. Great

466
00:22:00.390 --> 00:22:01.070
to hear from you.

467
00:22:02.990 --> 00:22:05.560
Time to take a break from the show to tell you about our story

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504
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505
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506
00:23:48.610 --> 00:23:49.650
Now back to the show.

507
00:23:50.530 --> 00:23:52.770
Speaker C: Three, two, one.

508
00:23:53.330 --> 00:23:56.160
Andrew Dunkley: Spacenut Nuts. And our, uh, final question

509
00:23:56.160 --> 00:23:58.720
comes from the Netherlands. And

510
00:23:59.030 --> 00:24:01.760
uh, it's a text question from Angela. I learned from

511
00:24:01.760 --> 00:24:04.560
earlier episodes that any item sent to space

512
00:24:04.640 --> 00:24:07.120
must be sterile, free of bugs.

513
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:10.080
This is to prevent contamination of the celestial

514
00:24:10.080 --> 00:24:12.600
bodies. However, could we consider the

515
00:24:12.600 --> 00:24:15.280
opposite? Send bugs, seeds, bacteria,

516
00:24:15.280 --> 00:24:18.280
etc, out into space on purpose. This

517
00:24:18.280 --> 00:24:21.280
will give life a small chance to evolve

518
00:24:21.280 --> 00:24:23.880
somewhere else and escape the

519
00:24:23.880 --> 00:24:26.560
potential one and only planet in our Milky Way that

520
00:24:26.560 --> 00:24:29.400
contains life. Kind regards, Angela from

521
00:24:29.400 --> 00:24:32.120
Amsterdam. She's sort of going on from

522
00:24:32.200 --> 00:24:34.680
what, um, Robert was talking about.

523
00:24:35.300 --> 00:24:37.960
Um, you know, we've got evidence of life on one

524
00:24:37.960 --> 00:24:40.520
planet, but she's saying, well, why don't we go

525
00:24:40.520 --> 00:24:43.200
seeding the other planets? Let's, you know, let's not

526
00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:46.040
keep uh, space, uh, craft

527
00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:49.080
clean. Let's just line people up. You can all hawk on the

528
00:24:49.080 --> 00:24:52.000
spacecraft and off

529
00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:54.880
it goes and we see the

530
00:24:54.880 --> 00:24:57.520
universe. Um, look, it worked

531
00:24:57.840 --> 00:25:00.280
in South America. The Spanish took all their

532
00:25:00.280 --> 00:25:02.640
nasties over there and nearly wiped the people out.

533
00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:03.360
So.

534
00:25:03.360 --> 00:25:06.240
Professor Fred Watson: Okay, yes, that's right, yeah.

535
00:25:07.720 --> 00:25:10.720
Uh, so, uh, I mean

536
00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:13.700
to some extent this has already happened, uh,

537
00:25:13.700 --> 00:25:16.520
because, uh, the, I think it was the

538
00:25:16.520 --> 00:25:19.320
Beersheba spacecraft, which was a

539
00:25:19.320 --> 00:25:22.160
private Israeli venture,

540
00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:24.880
which crashed on the moon, carried

541
00:25:25.040 --> 00:25:27.760
fruit flies, it carried tardigrades,

542
00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:30.920
carried a few other things. Um, they

543
00:25:30.920 --> 00:25:33.840
presumably perished in the accident. But

544
00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:37.360
the question I would have for Angela, I mean. Yes,

545
00:25:37.600 --> 00:25:40.280
okay, you fill a spacecraft full of earthly

546
00:25:40.280 --> 00:25:43.280
creatures. It's a bit like Noah's Ark really. Yeah, two

547
00:25:43.280 --> 00:25:45.440
by two, um, you

548
00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:48.880
seal it so that it's

549
00:25:49.360 --> 00:25:52.240
not gonna destroy

550
00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:55.160
another planet, uh, or

551
00:25:55.160 --> 00:25:57.880
seed another planet if it crashes. So you make it crash

552
00:25:57.880 --> 00:26:00.720
proof. But then you've got to sustain these

553
00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:03.600
organisms to keep them alive. And

554
00:26:03.600 --> 00:26:06.000
that's A, uh, tricky mission,

555
00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:08.880
you know, how do you. If you're talking about,

556
00:26:09.760 --> 00:26:12.180
um, lengths of time measured perhaps in

557
00:26:12.580 --> 00:26:15.500
millions or billions of years, which is how

558
00:26:15.500 --> 00:26:18.420
long it might take to land on another

559
00:26:18.420 --> 00:26:21.380
world, in another solar system. Uh,

560
00:26:21.380 --> 00:26:23.300
how do you keep things alive for that long?

561
00:26:23.460 --> 00:26:24.580
Andrew Dunkley: I've got the answer.

562
00:26:25.220 --> 00:26:25.740
Professor Fred Watson: You're good.

563
00:26:25.740 --> 00:26:27.700
Andrew Dunkley: I've got the answer. When I was growing up,

564
00:26:28.660 --> 00:26:30.500
they were selling sea monkeys

565
00:26:31.620 --> 00:26:33.500
at toys stores. Yeah.

566
00:26:33.500 --> 00:26:33.820
Professor Fred Watson: Yep.

567
00:26:33.820 --> 00:26:35.200
Andrew Dunkley: You bought. You bought the packet.

568
00:26:35.990 --> 00:26:36.750
Professor Fred Watson: Yep. You filled.

569
00:26:36.750 --> 00:26:39.750
Andrew Dunkley: You filled a, um, jar full of water, you tipped the

570
00:26:39.750 --> 00:26:41.990
packet in, and then all these things came to life.

571
00:26:43.780 --> 00:26:45.030
Uh, or sea monkeys.

572
00:26:45.430 --> 00:26:46.310
Professor Fred Watson: What were they?

573
00:26:46.550 --> 00:26:47.750
Andrew Dunkley: Don't know. Krill

574
00:26:49.430 --> 00:26:52.350
probably, something like that. There was some kind

575
00:26:52.350 --> 00:26:55.190
of little crustacean. Hang on, I'm going to look it up. I

576
00:26:55.190 --> 00:26:56.870
honestly can't remember what they mean.

577
00:26:56.870 --> 00:26:59.830
Professor Fred Watson: Tardigrades are a bit like that because tardigrades can

578
00:26:59.830 --> 00:27:02.390
dehydrate themselves completely. That's how they.

579
00:27:02.620 --> 00:27:05.180
They've survived on the outside of the space station.

580
00:27:06.140 --> 00:27:08.300
Um, but once you.

581
00:27:08.460 --> 00:27:11.420
Andrew Dunkley: Brian, I was right. They're shrimp. Brine shrimp. We're

582
00:27:11.420 --> 00:27:14.260
seeing monkeys. Yeah. Uh, they were developed in the

583
00:27:14.260 --> 00:27:16.300
United States in 1957,

584
00:27:17.080 --> 00:27:19.500
uh, by Harold Von Braunhutt,

585
00:27:19.880 --> 00:27:22.820
uh, and sold as eggs intended to be added to

586
00:27:22.820 --> 00:27:25.700
water. Um, and you used to buy them and

587
00:27:25.700 --> 00:27:28.540
take them home, put them in the water, and they'd hatch and you'd have

588
00:27:28.540 --> 00:27:29.820
sea monkeys. There you are.

589
00:27:32.650 --> 00:27:33.530
There's the solution.

590
00:27:34.090 --> 00:27:36.810
Professor Fred Watson: Now, how long did they last once you put them in water?

591
00:27:37.050 --> 00:27:38.970
Andrew Dunkley: Five minutes, usually. They did not.

592
00:27:41.770 --> 00:27:43.850
Professor Fred Watson: They didn't last long. Yeah. So it does.

593
00:27:45.050 --> 00:27:47.970
Okay. Yes. So it doesn't really give

594
00:27:47.970 --> 00:27:50.330
you much time to start a new population of

595
00:27:50.570 --> 00:27:53.530
species from planet Earth. Probably not if you

596
00:27:53.530 --> 00:27:56.160
find water on another world. Yeah. I mean, it's,

597
00:27:56.160 --> 00:27:58.970
uh. And of course, there's an ethical side to this as well.

598
00:27:59.420 --> 00:28:02.300
Um, my answer to. Well, it's the

599
00:28:02.300 --> 00:28:05.260
answer to, um, why we. Why

600
00:28:05.260 --> 00:28:08.100
we sterilise spacecraft going to Mars. Because we don't want to

601
00:28:08.340 --> 00:28:11.260
contaminate Mars with earthly microbes. If there are

602
00:28:11.260 --> 00:28:13.940
microbes there of Martian origin already,

603
00:28:14.740 --> 00:28:16.420
you don't want to intermix them.

604
00:28:17.140 --> 00:28:20.060
Andrew Dunkley: M. So, Angela, he had to do that. He just had to

605
00:28:20.060 --> 00:28:22.340
do the, um, the ethical thing.

606
00:28:23.380 --> 00:28:25.780
You and I are on a different page, but. Yeah,

607
00:28:26.020 --> 00:28:27.860
well, coming from Angela.

608
00:28:28.260 --> 00:28:28.740
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.

609
00:28:30.350 --> 00:28:32.910
Andrew Dunkley: But, you know, if. If the Thermi paradox,

610
00:28:32.910 --> 00:28:35.910
Fermi paradox is what it is, then why are we

611
00:28:35.910 --> 00:28:36.590
worried? Anyway?

612
00:28:36.590 --> 00:28:39.550
Professor Fred Watson: It doesn't matter. That's right. Just doesn't matter. Yes.

613
00:28:40.350 --> 00:28:43.270
Can send anything anywhere. Well, that might be the way it

614
00:28:43.270 --> 00:28:46.190
ends up. If we never find any existence, any evidence

615
00:28:46.190 --> 00:28:48.190
of life somewhere else. But I think we're.

616
00:28:48.270 --> 00:28:50.870
This is a study that's still in its infancy.

617
00:28:50.870 --> 00:28:53.470
Astrobiology has only been around for 30 years or something,

618
00:28:54.270 --> 00:28:56.290
so we've still got a long way to go.

619
00:28:56.450 --> 00:28:57.730
Andrew Dunkley: We have, yes.

620
00:28:57.790 --> 00:28:57.990
Professor Fred Watson: Um.

621
00:28:58.470 --> 00:29:01.330
Andrew Dunkley: Uh, yes, at this stage, we're playing

622
00:29:01.330 --> 00:29:04.170
it safe. I think the day will

623
00:29:04.170 --> 00:29:06.690
come, Angela, where we'll. We'll load up an ARC

624
00:29:06.690 --> 00:29:09.170
spacecraft and we will send them

625
00:29:09.490 --> 00:29:12.450
hither and thither and

626
00:29:12.450 --> 00:29:14.130
try to populate another planet.

627
00:29:15.890 --> 00:29:18.770
Who knows? Could happen. Uh, thanks, Angela.

628
00:29:18.770 --> 00:29:21.530
Great question, though. Really enjoyed mincing that one

629
00:29:21.530 --> 00:29:21.810
up.

630
00:29:22.360 --> 00:29:25.210
Uh, and, uh, that brings us to the end of the

631
00:29:25.210 --> 00:29:26.290
show, Fred Watson. Thank you.

632
00:29:27.320 --> 00:29:30.130
Professor Fred Watson: Um, thank you, Andrew. Thanks for your tolerance

633
00:29:30.130 --> 00:29:31.170
and patience and.

634
00:29:31.490 --> 00:29:33.010
Andrew Dunkley: I, um, think it's the other way around, Fred Watson.

635
00:29:33.010 --> 00:29:36.010
Professor Fred Watson: But anyway, thanks for not dropping

636
00:29:36.010 --> 00:29:36.690
out on me.

637
00:29:37.480 --> 00:29:39.890
Andrew Dunkley: Uh, yes, we've had a golden run today.

638
00:29:40.050 --> 00:29:42.330
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, yeah, it's been good after the.

639
00:29:42.330 --> 00:29:45.170
Andrew Dunkley: The massive full start, but, yes, we're all good.

640
00:29:45.730 --> 00:29:47.330
Thanks, Fred Watson. We'll catch you next time.

641
00:29:48.200 --> 00:29:49.480
Professor Fred Watson: Sounds great. Thanks, Andrew.

642
00:29:49.880 --> 00:29:52.680
Andrew Dunkley: Professor Fred Watson Watson, Astronomer Large, with us every

643
00:29:52.680 --> 00:29:55.680
week, uh, twice on Space Nuts. And thanks to

644
00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:58.600
Huw in the studio, who couldn't be with us today because he's just putting his

645
00:29:58.600 --> 00:30:01.480
Dutch nationality application in. He's

646
00:30:01.480 --> 00:30:04.480
sick of being a Kiwi. He wants to be Dutch because, you

647
00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:07.440
know, they're so cool. Well, I married

648
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:10.440
one, so they must be. And from me, Andrew Dunkley. Thanks for

649
00:30:10.440 --> 00:30:13.240
your company. Catch you on the next episode of Space Nuts. Bye.

650
00:30:13.240 --> 00:30:13.560
Bye.

651
00:30:14.680 --> 00:30:17.480
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652
00:30:19.330 --> 00:30:21.890
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653
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654
00:30:24.810 --> 00:30:26.530
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655
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