Black Hole Temperatures, Cosmic Mapping & the Mystery of Dark Matter| Q&A

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Andrew Dunkley: Hi there. Thanks for joining us again. This

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is a Q and A, uh, edition of Space

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Nuts, where we, uh, take audience questions

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and we pretend that we know what we're

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talking about in attempting to answer them.

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Or we get it right sometimes, too. Uh,

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today we're going to be answering a

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question about, uh, the temperature of black

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holes. I'm not sure we've been

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there before. It may have come up, but, um, I

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can't remember when. Uh, and a question,

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uh, asking with the James Webb Space Text

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Telescope and the Vera Rubin Telescope, how

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much of the universe has been mapped?

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I can tell you this much.

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Uh, and the emptiness of space is being

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questioned. And what difference will it

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make to humanity, uh, if we

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find dark matter and dark energy?

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That's, um, a really interesting question.

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And Fred knows the answer. We'll ask him

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shortly on this edition of SpaceNuts.

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Voice Over Guy: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal.

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10, 9. Ignition.

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Sequence time. Um, space nuts. 5, 4, 3,

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2. 1. 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 4,

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3, 2, 1. Space nuts.

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Astronauts report. It feels good.

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Professor Fred Watson: And he's back.

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Andrew Dunkley: And he has all the answers to all the

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questions of life, the universe, and

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everything. Professor Fred Watson, astronomer

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at large. Hello, Fred.

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Professor Fred Watson: No pressure there, Andrew.

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Andrew Dunkley: None at all. None at all.

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Professor Fred Watson: That's right.

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Andrew Dunkley: Uh, let's get straight into it, shall we?

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Um, uh, one of our regular contributors

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is Casey, who has a very interesting

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question about a subject we never discuss,

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black holes.

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Professor Fred Watson: Hi, guys, this is Casey from Colorado, and I

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was thinking about the temperature of black

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holes. I know that the accretion disk would

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be very hot, but I was wondering, once you

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get past the event horizon, if it would

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be hot or, uh, cold. Why do we think this.

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Thanks for the podcast, and I hope you're

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both well. Thanks.

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Andrew Dunkley: Thank you, Casey. She's got me thinking about

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the temperature in Colorado because, like,

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we're facing some horrific temperatures

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around here at the moment, but I'd imagine

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it'd be quite the opposite in Colorado this

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time of the year.

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Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, I think that's. That's absolutely

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right, yes. Chilly part of the world in

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winter.

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Andrew Dunkley: Absolutely. Um, now,

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temperature of black holes. This, this

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one's interesting because I suppose it varies

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on several factors. Um,

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where you are, what you're doing.

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I don't know what I would

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like. It's not like the temperature of the

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sun, is it?

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Professor Fred Watson: No, it's not. Um,

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I'm so glad Casey asked this

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question because it sent me down a rabbit

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hole that I haven't been down before. Oh,

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wow. And it leads you straight to quantum

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theory. Uh, uh, and

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um, it's, you know, it's a

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really, uh, in a sense it's quite

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unexpected, uh, what's

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happening. Uh, so

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the bottom line is, whilst

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as Cayce, exactly as Cayce says, the

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accretion disk of the black hole is extremely

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hot, uh, and you know, we're talking millions

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of degrees there because that's where you get

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X ray radiation from. It's the stuff

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charging around the accretion disk, uh,

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that's uh, swirl whirling around the black

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hole itself. But the black hole

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itself is the

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opposite. It's really, really cold.

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Um, and basically, uh,

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it's because the

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amount of radiation,

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uh, that they release is

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at a level, uh, which means its

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temperature is measured in

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gazillionths of a degree. It's

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virtually absolute zero. Um,

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they, they

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basically, they're, it says,

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quite a nice way of putting it, um,

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which, which I've summarized, uh,

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uh, I think this comes from Wikipedia.

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It may come from AI actually. Uh, but the

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bottom line is even though black holes pull

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in matter and energy, their temperature is

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incredibly low because their large mass

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makes their event horizons

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effectively cold thermal emitters

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absorbing energy faster than they radiate it

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at these scales. So that's the key to

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what's happening that like everything

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else, black holes sucks stuff. It sucks stuff

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in, uh, and that stuff

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is matter, which is equivalent to energy.

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Uh, and because it's stuff that's going in

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and not radiating outwards, uh,

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even though there is what we call Hawking

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radiation, which I'll get to in a second. But

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that, um, uh, you know,

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what it means is that the fact that there's

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an energy input into the black hole,

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it means that to the outside observer they

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look cold. They look very, very cold.

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There is a relationship, as you said, uh,

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it might vary with some things. And what it

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varies with, uh, is actually the mass of the

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black hole. Uh, it's

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roughly, uh, an inverse

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proportionality proportionality. The

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temperature is inversely proportional

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to the mass. Um, and what that

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means is for supermassive black holes, they

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are extremely cold. And

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that sort of figures because they're sucking

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in more energy. And so the surface to an

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outside observer would look colder. Uh,

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they're talking about 10 to the minus 14

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degrees kelvin. Um,

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something with the mass of the sun,

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um, is a

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balmy 10 to the minus 7 degrees

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Kelvin. It's still virtually zero,

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but it's more, uh, more than the

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supermassive black holes. So something the

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mass of the sun, so it's inversely

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proportional to the mass, uh, that inverse

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relationship. Uh, and

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so that's kind of what.

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It's the Hawking radiation that

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gives the black hole

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a temperature. Essentially it's because

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it's emitting radiation. Um, and

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we've talked about Hawking radiation before.

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Even though everything gets sucked into a

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black hole, there's this quantum situation

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where you can get, um, two

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virtual particles being created from nothing

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in empty space. One gets trapped by the black

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hole, the other doesn't. And so we see that

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as Hawking radiation, uh,

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suggested by Stephen hawking in the 1970s.

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Now very well established. But

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yeah, to summarize, the bottom line is

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Cayce's, uh, question is a good one. Uh,

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because it turns out that black holes are

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very, very cold indeed, despite the intense

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heat of the accretion disk. Work that one

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out. It's a really hard thing to put your

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imagination around.

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Andrew Dunkley: I suppose you compare it to the heat on the.

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It's got nothing to do with it at all. But,

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uh, by example, the heat on the, uh, sunward

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side of Mercury versus the cool on the

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shadow side. They're so extreme.

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Professor Fred Watson: Um. Yes. Yeah, that's right.

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Andrew Dunkley: The reason for the m. Same reason.

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Professor Fred Watson: Well, it's similar because the dark side of

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Mercury is cold, uh, because it's

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radiating energy into space.

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Um, uh, whereas, uh.

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And that. That energy loss reduces the

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temperature. Whereas with a black hole, it's

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the other way around. The thing is, the thing

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is sucking energy in at a greater rate than

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it's emitting energy. Uh,

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so Mercury would. Mercury's dark side would

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lose heat by infrared radiation. Um,

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that radiation, in the case of a black hole

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is, Is much smaller than the radiation that

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it's sucking in, which is why it looks

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extremely cold. So I'm trying to. I'm

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trying. Sense of the parallel that you drew.

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And I think it's. I think it holds water,

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Andrew. I think. I think it's a good, good

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answer. Actually.

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Andrew Dunkley: The water probably evaporate or freeze. But

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anyway, freezing.

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I just thought of a question. Um, so if a

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black hole sort of,

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you know, runs out of food, would that

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cause an alteration in its temperature?

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Professor Fred Watson: Um, I don't think so, because I think

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once the. I get what you're saying,

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and certainly in the argument that we've just

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been talking about, you'd think that if

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it's not sucking in energy anymore, uh,

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or sucking in matter anymore, uh, it

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would actually, uh, change its temperature.

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Um, the reason why I think that might not

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happen is because the only thing that,

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uh, the temperature seems to be related to is

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the Mass itself. So, um, there must be

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a mechanism, and I'm sorry, it's eluding me

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at the moment, uh, but there must be a

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mechanism that sort of locks. Once you've,

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once you've got a black hole of

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sufficient mass, um, then, uh,

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its temperature is sort of locked in.

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Uh, it must still be taking in

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energy in the form of radiation. So perhaps

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that's what's happening. You know,

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light certainly gets sucked into a black

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hole, even if it's not got an

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accretion disk of stuff to feed on.

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Uh, the light's certainly going in and

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perhaps that's uh, enough to keep the

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temperature as low as we've described.

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Andrew Dunkley: Indeed.

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Professor Fred Watson: All right, thanks.

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Andrew Dunkley: Uh, Casey, lovely to hear from you. Hope

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you're coping with the, uh, minus 10 to the

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15 degrees kelvin in Colorado.

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Uh, our next question comes from

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Eli.

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Hello spacefarers. I'm writing from the

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Coachella Valley Desert here in Southern

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California. Uh, I've often thought, thought

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some of the Google Earth like software would

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be amazing to take into other galaxies

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throughout the universe. Intriguingly, I

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imagine you could take them back in time

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according to estimates of cosmic inflation,

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etc, all the way to the Big Bang in theory.

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Um, to his question with James Webb and the

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Vera Rubin coming online. How much of the

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visible universe have we basically

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mapped and how much are we projected to map

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in say, the next decade? I think we've

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actually talked about how much that they're

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going to look at and how long it's going to

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take. And I think Eli's going to be quite

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surprised by the answer.

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Professor Fred Watson: Uh, well, yes, that's right. I mean the key

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words here are, uh, the Vera Rubin

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Observatory, uh, because that will

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map the entire sky down

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to quite a significant depth. Not as

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deep as the web will. Um,

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although it is an eight meter telescope, the

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web is only six and a half meters, so it's

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probably not far short of it. Uh, the web, of

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course, looking in infrared and the Vera

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Rubin Telescope looking invisible light. But

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it's going to photograph the whole sky,

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Southern sky, uh, in,

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uh, every three, three nights or so.

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So that will build up over the years a

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map of the things that don't change. I mean,

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what it's looking for is things that do

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change. But, um, as you

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integrate for all that time, and by that I

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mean you, you know, expose the detector to

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the sky so that you build up the image, uh,

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and you can add all those images together,

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we'll have, we'll have a, almost a

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complete map of the universe in the

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Southern hemisphere. Because, uh, all the

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visible galaxies will show up.

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Andrew Dunkley: Uh.

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Professor Fred Watson: We won't see the first galaxies. I don't

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think it's going to be powerful enough to see

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those. Uh, and we're not sure even that

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the Webb has seen the first galaxies. Uh,

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it's certainly seen some galaxies that we

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think are uh, very early in the history of

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the universe. And I think the Vera C.

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Rubin Observatory will do the same thing.

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Uh, but, um, you know, so we're not in

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any sense getting a complete sense

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of the consensus, sorry, a

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complete census of the universe. Uh,

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but it's not going to be far off.

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Uh, and that's quite astonishing when you

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think of where we were, you know, well, just

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a few years ago. Certainly when I was a young

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working astronomer in the 1970s, I would have

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had somebody, it would have blown my mind to

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think that we could map all the galaxies

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uh, in one hemisphere of the

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universe. Yeah.

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Andrew Dunkley: Uh, what about the Northern Hemisphere? Is

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there any work?

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Professor Fred Watson: There's no equivalent. Uh,

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the, the, there is. Uh, I mean the Nancy

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Roman Space Telescope will look,

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it's also a wide angle telescope like the

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Vera Rubin Observatory instrument is.

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But um, it's not as big.

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Um, it is a 2.3 meter telescope.

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It's basically a Hubble telescope but with a

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wide field of view. Uh, so we'll

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certainly see uh, pretty deep into the

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Northern Hemisphere. Whether it will go as

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deep as the Rubin Observatory, it's a

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different matter. I don't think it will

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because it's a much smaller telescope, but it

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is in space and that gives it, excuse me,

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that gives it advantages. There's no

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atmosphere to, to get in the way. So

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that's perhaps the best bet. Um,

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the, excuse me, the other

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big uh, instruments. I mean there's a number

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of things going on. Um,

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in terms of the two Keck telescopes which are

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in the Northern hemisphere In Hawaii, they're

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8 meter class telescopes, but they're not

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wide angle. These are telescopes that are

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built to uh, home in, in detail on um,

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individual objects rather than to do wide

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angle surveys. You need a specially designed

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telescope for that. And Rubin is exactly

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that. Um, there

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isn't really an equivalent. Uh,

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there is a wide angle telescope in La

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Palma which is um, basically the same

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as our UK Schmidt telescope here in

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Australia. It's called the Ocean Schmidt

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telescope. It's much older than our Schmidt.

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In fact our Schmidt was modeled on it. And

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that's a wide angle telescope that's

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surveying the sky, but that's looking for

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things like near Earth asteroids and things

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of that sort, rather than penetrating deep

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into the universe because it's only got a 1.2

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meter aperture diameter, much, uh,

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smaller than the 8 meters that the Rubin

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telescope will have.

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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. Still,

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um, what we'll know in 10 years time

347
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will be extraordinary, uh,

348
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through these two telescopes alone. James

349
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Webb and Vera Rubin. Um, yeah,

350
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who knows what they're going to un. Unveil.

351
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Uh, and what, what about, you

352
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know, Vera Rubin's first photograph was a

353
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revelation. Uh, and what James

354
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Webb is, um, is shelling

355
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out is, is extraordinary. It,

356
00:15:21.350 --> 00:15:24.310
it's, it's like, um, I don't know, Taylor

357
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Swift. It's a hit record. Every time that,

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every time they release a picture that's,

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uh, it's incredible. So, Eli, the next

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decade will be extraordinary. Um, so

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just, you know, keep an eye on it would be

362
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my advice. And thanks for the question. This

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is Space Nuts with Andrew Dunkley

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and Professor Fred Watson.

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Three, two, one.

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Space Nuts. I think we have

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an audio question now. This one comes from

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one of our regulars as well.

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Professor Fred Watson: Hello, uh, Fred, Andrew, Jonti and Heidi,

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this is Robert from the Netherlands.

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I have a question for you guys about the

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emptiness of space. Now,

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every is always saying that space

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is totally empty, right? One proton per

375
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square meter, something like that.

376
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However, not that long ago,

377
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scientists did discover the Higgs boson

378
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particle, the God particle, if you will.

379
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So apparently everything is on this

380
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grid of Higgs bosons, but

381
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I'm not exactly an expert here. I'm just

382
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curious if you guys could shed some lights on

383
00:16:39.790 --> 00:16:42.470
this concept for me. So is it

384
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just an enormous field of these very

385
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regular Higbotons everywhere, and that's what

386
00:16:47.910 --> 00:16:50.790
space is, or are they more numerous or

387
00:16:50.790 --> 00:16:53.600
less dense in certain parts? Is

388
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the void between galaxies actually a void,

389
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or is it an empty field of God

390
00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:02.400
particles? I really hope you can

391
00:17:02.400 --> 00:17:05.200
shed some light. Thank you guys so much for

392
00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:05.760
answering.

393
00:17:06.800 --> 00:17:09.330
Andrew Dunkley: Thank you, Robert. Good to hear from you. Uh,

394
00:17:09.520 --> 00:17:11.600
the emptiness of space.

395
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So he said one proton per square meter.

396
00:17:15.520 --> 00:17:17.280
Is that a, um, reasonable?

397
00:17:18.980 --> 00:17:21.610
Professor Fred Watson: Uh, yeah, it's per cubic meter, something

398
00:17:21.930 --> 00:17:24.050
like that. Um, yeah. Um,

399
00:17:25.540 --> 00:17:27.930
uh, it's of that order, I think, in

400
00:17:28.010 --> 00:17:30.520
intergalactic space. Um,

401
00:17:31.880 --> 00:17:34.410
uh, but, uh, Robert's

402
00:17:34.569 --> 00:17:36.890
right in the sense that

403
00:17:37.690 --> 00:17:39.530
the Higgs field,

404
00:17:40.410 --> 00:17:43.330
which is the other way of looking at

405
00:17:43.330 --> 00:17:45.790
the Higgs boson, uh,

406
00:17:46.060 --> 00:17:48.540
permeates, basically permeates

407
00:17:48.700 --> 00:17:50.920
empty space. Um,

408
00:17:52.060 --> 00:17:54.940
so, uh, this is

409
00:17:54.940 --> 00:17:57.820
all about the duality of particles,

410
00:17:58.890 --> 00:18:01.580
uh, with waves and with

411
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what we call fields. Um, and we, I

412
00:18:04.660 --> 00:18:06.740
mean, we imagine fields when we think of

413
00:18:06.740 --> 00:18:09.140
gravitation because we think of a

414
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Gravitational field as a. As a,

415
00:18:12.410 --> 00:18:15.340
um. Um, sort of a.

416
00:18:15.340 --> 00:18:17.660
Well, if I can put it that way, in a. In a

417
00:18:17.660 --> 00:18:20.220
trampoline. Uh, the trampoline is the field.

418
00:18:20.220 --> 00:18:22.380
You put something in it and it distorts it.

419
00:18:23.010 --> 00:18:25.340
Uh, so with the Higgs,

420
00:18:26.170 --> 00:18:29.100
uh, boson, the Higgs field, uh, is

421
00:18:29.500 --> 00:18:32.140
this sort of invisible. It's been

422
00:18:32.140 --> 00:18:34.980
described as a. Something like molasses or

423
00:18:34.980 --> 00:18:37.010
syrup, uh, that

424
00:18:37.890 --> 00:18:40.370
what, actually give particles their mass

425
00:18:40.370 --> 00:18:42.890
because, um, they move slowly through it

426
00:18:42.890 --> 00:18:45.690
because they get sticky. Uh, that's one way

427
00:18:45.690 --> 00:18:48.530
of looking at it. Um, but, uh, the Higgs

428
00:18:48.530 --> 00:18:51.470
boson is essentially, ah, um,

429
00:18:51.970 --> 00:18:54.850
in a sense, a, uh, ripple in

430
00:18:54.850 --> 00:18:57.770
the Higgs field. The Higgs field fills

431
00:18:57.770 --> 00:19:00.220
space, and the Higgs bosons, uh,

432
00:19:00.530 --> 00:19:03.530
are ripples in it. That's one way to look

433
00:19:03.530 --> 00:19:06.460
at it. Um, it's.

434
00:19:06.860 --> 00:19:09.660
It's, um. The. The.

435
00:19:09.660 --> 00:19:12.260
The. I think what Robert's interested in is

436
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the density of these

437
00:19:14.540 --> 00:19:17.300
bosons, uh, whether

438
00:19:17.300 --> 00:19:19.790
they are uniformly, uh,

439
00:19:19.820 --> 00:19:22.380
distributed through space or whether

440
00:19:22.460 --> 00:19:24.490
we're talking about, um,

441
00:19:25.580 --> 00:19:28.130
you know, uh, bosons, uh,

442
00:19:28.460 --> 00:19:29.100
that are, uh,

443
00:19:32.470 --> 00:19:34.790
more dense in some places than others.

444
00:19:35.430 --> 00:19:38.230
Uh, and I guess the.

445
00:19:38.470 --> 00:19:40.110
The bottom line is that you would expect

446
00:19:40.110 --> 00:19:42.470
there to be more bosons where there is

447
00:19:43.190 --> 00:19:45.270
more, uh, more,

448
00:19:46.150 --> 00:19:48.710
uh, what you might call normal matter, the.

449
00:19:48.710 --> 00:19:51.630
The quarks and normal particles. Uh, but

450
00:19:51.630 --> 00:19:53.630
that might not be the case. Uh, I need to

451
00:19:53.630 --> 00:19:55.350
look at that a little bit more carefully,

452
00:19:55.350 --> 00:19:58.150
Andrew, as you can probably tell, uh, to find

453
00:19:58.150 --> 00:20:00.950
out what the distribution of Higgs bosons,

454
00:20:00.950 --> 00:20:03.690
uh, are. If you assume the field is uniform

455
00:20:03.690 --> 00:20:05.490
throughout space, which I think it might be.

456
00:20:06.450 --> 00:20:08.130
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, I suppose so. I mean, it's a

457
00:20:08.130 --> 00:20:09.810
complicated area. You're talking about

458
00:20:09.810 --> 00:20:11.250
particle physics, aren't you?

459
00:20:11.250 --> 00:20:11.570
Professor Fred Watson: Really?

460
00:20:11.730 --> 00:20:13.050
Andrew Dunkley: It's, um. Not.

461
00:20:13.050 --> 00:20:14.130
Professor Fred Watson: I believe so, yes.

462
00:20:15.090 --> 00:20:17.810
Andrew Dunkley: It's not basic maths, so,

463
00:20:17.830 --> 00:20:18.410
um.

464
00:20:18.410 --> 00:20:19.930
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, it's particle physics we're talking

465
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about. And, um, as I've said before, the

466
00:20:22.330 --> 00:20:24.370
disclaimer is I'm not a particle physicist.

467
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I've been to. Been to CERN a

468
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few times and had my mind blown by what they

469
00:20:30.490 --> 00:20:32.770
do there at the Large Hadron Collider. Uh, in

470
00:20:32.770 --> 00:20:34.090
fact, I've been underground in the Large

471
00:20:34.090 --> 00:20:36.070
Hadron Collider. Collider, but I'm still not

472
00:20:36.070 --> 00:20:38.190
a physicist. A particle physicist. I,

473
00:20:38.690 --> 00:20:41.310
uh, learn what the. They tell me

474
00:20:41.390 --> 00:20:43.230
and kind of hope for the best.

475
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Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. Aren't they making a larger hadron

476
00:20:45.990 --> 00:20:46.430
collider?

477
00:20:48.910 --> 00:20:51.150
Professor Fred Watson: They are planning, ah, one,

478
00:20:51.430 --> 00:20:52.830
um, something called.

479
00:20:55.870 --> 00:20:57.790
I can't remember. It's something like the

480
00:20:57.790 --> 00:21:00.110
large, you know, the future Large Collider, I

481
00:21:00.110 --> 00:21:02.790
think something like that, uh, which wears

482
00:21:02.790 --> 00:21:05.460
the large Hadron Collider has a diameter or a

483
00:21:05.460 --> 00:21:08.380
circumference of 27 kilometers. This is

484
00:21:08.380 --> 00:21:11.220
100 kilometers. Um, if they

485
00:21:11.300 --> 00:21:13.420
ever get the money for it, they are planning

486
00:21:13.420 --> 00:21:15.820
an opening ceremony for it in

487
00:21:15.820 --> 00:21:16.500
2017.

488
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Andrew Dunkley: It's called the, uh, Future Circular

489
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Collider.

490
00:21:21.220 --> 00:21:22.910
Professor Fred Watson: Future Circular Collider. That's it.

491
00:21:22.910 --> 00:21:25.900
Andrew Dunkley: Um, 91 centimeter ring, successor to the

492
00:21:25.900 --> 00:21:28.780
Large Hadron Collider. And

493
00:21:28.780 --> 00:21:31.220
they expect it to be Approved

494
00:21:33.040 --> 00:21:36.040
in the 2728 financial year, by the look

495
00:21:36.040 --> 00:21:37.720
of it. Construction starting in the 2000 and

496
00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:38.040
30s.

497
00:21:38.040 --> 00:21:40.920
Professor Fred Watson: So it's a little way off completion

498
00:21:40.920 --> 00:21:42.114
in 2070.

499
00:21:42.326 --> 00:21:43.280
Andrew Dunkley: 2070.

500
00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:47.040
Professor Fred Watson: Yep. That's way. Well,

501
00:21:47.519 --> 00:21:50.120
the last. Let's not hold out bread is what I

502
00:21:50.120 --> 00:21:52.720
saw. Yeah. So I don't think,

503
00:21:52.770 --> 00:21:55.200
um, you know, even with the best will in the

504
00:21:55.200 --> 00:21:57.800
world, space nuts will probably have

505
00:21:57.800 --> 00:22:00.040
dwindled to an audience measured in single

506
00:22:00.040 --> 00:22:01.360
digits by then, so.

507
00:22:01.850 --> 00:22:04.250
Andrew Dunkley: Possibly, possibly m. So. Yes,

508
00:22:04.730 --> 00:22:06.530
well, we could pick up new listeners along

509
00:22:06.530 --> 00:22:07.930
the way, but we won't know about it.

510
00:22:08.330 --> 00:22:10.850
But, um, I suppose the other side to this

511
00:22:10.850 --> 00:22:12.730
question, though, is that we do see

512
00:22:12.730 --> 00:22:14.650
concentrations of

513
00:22:15.530 --> 00:22:18.330
particles in some parts of the universe. Uh,

514
00:22:18.330 --> 00:22:20.970
like dark matter seems to concentrate around

515
00:22:21.210 --> 00:22:23.450
galaxies kind of thing.

516
00:22:23.450 --> 00:22:24.250
Professor Fred Watson: Is that. Yeah.

517
00:22:24.570 --> 00:22:26.250
Andrew Dunkley: That a different kettle of fish?

518
00:22:27.290 --> 00:22:29.130
Professor Fred Watson: I think so. Because we're talking about

519
00:22:29.540 --> 00:22:32.460
something that is, um, a property of the

520
00:22:32.460 --> 00:22:35.310
universe itself, almost, um,

521
00:22:37.300 --> 00:22:39.700
so that the Higgs field is everywhere.

522
00:22:41.540 --> 00:22:44.180
Andrew Dunkley: Okay, gotcha. I understand. No, I get it. I

523
00:22:44.180 --> 00:22:44.900
get it. Yeah.

524
00:22:44.900 --> 00:22:45.860
Professor Fred Watson: All right. Yeah.

525
00:22:46.180 --> 00:22:48.580
Andrew Dunkley: So, Robert, the answer is maybe, um,

526
00:22:49.060 --> 00:22:51.500
possibly could be we, uh, need to do a bit

527
00:22:51.500 --> 00:22:54.220
more homework. By the sound of it, we might

528
00:22:54.220 --> 00:22:55.480
be able to get back to you on that.

529
00:22:57.070 --> 00:22:59.430
Just Fred's writing a note so he doesn't

530
00:22:59.430 --> 00:23:01.750
forget. Except you'll forget where the note

531
00:23:01.750 --> 00:23:01.990
is.

532
00:23:01.990 --> 00:23:04.870
Professor Fred Watson: Shh. All right. It's

533
00:23:04.870 --> 00:23:05.550
in this book.

534
00:23:06.910 --> 00:23:07.870
Andrew Dunkley: Thanks, Robert.

535
00:23:10.110 --> 00:23:12.030
Okay, we checked all four systems,

536
00:23:12.990 --> 00:23:15.710
space nets. And our final question

537
00:23:15.790 --> 00:23:18.210
comes from Rennie. Um,

538
00:23:19.070 --> 00:23:20.830
this is a really interesting question because

539
00:23:20.830 --> 00:23:23.270
he says, I'm going to play devil's advocate

540
00:23:23.270 --> 00:23:26.240
with this question. How will finding

541
00:23:26.320 --> 00:23:29.200
out what dark matter and dark energy really

542
00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:31.920
are, uh, help the Earth and all,

543
00:23:32.430 --> 00:23:34.960
uh, of its life now and in the future?

544
00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:37.920
Rennie from California. We've had a few US

545
00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:40.560
Questions this week. That's nice. Two from

546
00:23:40.560 --> 00:23:43.000
Kelly. Uh, so, yeah, what difference will it

547
00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:45.760
make if we find this stuff to Earth and

548
00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:48.480
life as it is now and in the future?

549
00:23:51.170 --> 00:23:54.170
Professor Fred Watson: Um, so, um, yeah, if we magically

550
00:23:54.490 --> 00:23:57.410
did find the answer to these things, and

551
00:23:57.410 --> 00:24:00.370
we will eventually, uh, over a

552
00:24:00.370 --> 00:24:03.090
period of time, I hope it's not. I Hope it's

553
00:24:03.090 --> 00:24:05.980
before 2070, because I want to know, um,

554
00:24:07.050 --> 00:24:09.130
what it will do will be complete our

555
00:24:09.450 --> 00:24:12.330
understanding of the universe in a way

556
00:24:12.490 --> 00:24:15.450
that is not the case at the moment.

557
00:24:16.170 --> 00:24:18.330
So, um, it

558
00:24:18.890 --> 00:24:21.530
basically refines our, uh, understanding,

559
00:24:22.230 --> 00:24:25.130
uh, if I can put it this way, in a way

560
00:24:25.850 --> 00:24:27.850
that's similar to the way

561
00:24:28.490 --> 00:24:31.290
general relativity refined

562
00:24:31.290 --> 00:24:33.930
it back in 1915.

563
00:24:35.410 --> 00:24:38.130
Um, so the fact that we

564
00:24:38.130 --> 00:24:40.730
suddenly understood gravity, the way

565
00:24:40.730 --> 00:24:43.460
gravity works in a new light,

566
00:24:43.700 --> 00:24:46.100
which is what general relativity did,

567
00:24:46.870 --> 00:24:49.370
um, meant that, uh,

568
00:24:50.340 --> 00:24:52.100
yes, the physicists could go away

569
00:24:52.820 --> 00:24:55.460
happy because they solved a problem.

570
00:24:55.830 --> 00:24:57.460
Uh, there were a number of problems that

571
00:24:57.620 --> 00:25:00.620
Newtonian gravity couldn't, Couldn't help

572
00:25:00.620 --> 00:25:03.170
with, which was solved by, uh,

573
00:25:03.170 --> 00:25:05.860
Einsteinian gravity. So,

574
00:25:06.050 --> 00:25:08.810
um, but that didn't seem to offer

575
00:25:08.890 --> 00:25:10.890
any future benefits for

576
00:25:11.050 --> 00:25:14.050
humankind. But here we are rather

577
00:25:14.050 --> 00:25:16.490
more than 100 years later, 110 years later,

578
00:25:17.130 --> 00:25:19.340
and we have, um,

579
00:25:20.010 --> 00:25:22.250
tools which rely

580
00:25:22.650 --> 00:25:25.450
absolutely on general relativity. And the one

581
00:25:25.450 --> 00:25:28.020
I'm thinking of most commonly is, uh,

582
00:25:28.170 --> 00:25:30.730
gps, uh, because our

583
00:25:30.970 --> 00:25:33.290
position finding software, um,

584
00:25:34.420 --> 00:25:36.420
simply would not work without general

585
00:25:36.420 --> 00:25:38.860
relativity. You'd have errors in the region

586
00:25:38.860 --> 00:25:41.740
of 10 kilometers, which is not kind of what

587
00:25:41.740 --> 00:25:44.580
you want with GPS, but that took

588
00:25:44.580 --> 00:25:47.520
100 years. And so Rennie, uh,

589
00:25:47.520 --> 00:25:50.380
that's the sort of timescale, I think, on

590
00:25:50.380 --> 00:25:52.340
which you have to be optimistic about the way

591
00:25:52.340 --> 00:25:55.220
it might help humankind or life on Earth

592
00:25:55.220 --> 00:25:57.700
generally. Because if we become

593
00:25:57.940 --> 00:26:00.900
responsible, um, a responsible species

594
00:26:00.900 --> 00:26:02.460
on our planet, we're going to help the whole

595
00:26:02.460 --> 00:26:05.140
planet if we, if we live sustainably and

596
00:26:06.020 --> 00:26:08.260
live, um, alongside, uh, all our

597
00:26:08.260 --> 00:26:10.900
companion organisms on this

598
00:26:10.900 --> 00:26:13.380
planet. So, uh, yeah, so I think,

599
00:26:13.640 --> 00:26:16.100
um, what you can't say is that it won't help

600
00:26:16.100 --> 00:26:19.100
them. That's the thing. You can't say that it

601
00:26:19.100 --> 00:26:22.020
will either. Uh, but there's a good

602
00:26:22.020 --> 00:26:24.690
chance that in the same way that, um,

603
00:26:24.980 --> 00:26:27.220
something as abstruse as general

604
00:26:27.220 --> 00:26:30.020
relativity actually comes into everybody's

605
00:26:30.020 --> 00:26:32.500
everyday life odd years later.

606
00:26:33.210 --> 00:26:35.770
I think that's the model. And it's one reason

607
00:26:35.770 --> 00:26:38.490
why deep research

608
00:26:38.570 --> 00:26:40.890
like this is funded. It's why fundamental

609
00:26:40.890 --> 00:26:43.260
research that is just knowledge for its own m

610
00:26:43.290 --> 00:26:45.770
sake at the moment, why it's funded. Because

611
00:26:45.770 --> 00:26:47.610
you never know what the spinoffs might be.

612
00:26:48.170 --> 00:26:50.530
Andrew Dunkley: Absolutely. Uh, and you can look back in

613
00:26:50.530 --> 00:26:52.490
history at some of the great discoveries and

614
00:26:52.490 --> 00:26:55.290
how they've changed things

615
00:26:55.370 --> 00:26:58.010
on Earth and have changed human life.

616
00:26:58.180 --> 00:27:00.960
Um, I'm just trying to think of one.

617
00:27:01.840 --> 00:27:04.000
Professor Fred Watson: Well, electricity for a start. Well, they.

618
00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:06.200
Yeah, you know, it was just, um, physicists

619
00:27:06.200 --> 00:27:09.160
playing around in the early 19th century. Oh,

620
00:27:09.160 --> 00:27:11.960
this is really interesting. Um, nobody ever

621
00:27:11.960 --> 00:27:14.320
thought we'd use it like we do today.

622
00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:17.600
Andrew Dunkley: I suppose one of The. This is probably a

623
00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:21.160
fundamental example. Um, as we learn

624
00:27:21.160 --> 00:27:23.520
things, we learn things, so

625
00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:26.840
it expands our minds, expands our

626
00:27:26.840 --> 00:27:29.400
inquisitiveness, it expands our intelligence,

627
00:27:30.700 --> 00:27:32.780
enables humanity to understand

628
00:27:33.820 --> 00:27:36.260
more about itself and its place in the

629
00:27:36.260 --> 00:27:39.180
universe. You go back to 1543,

630
00:27:39.900 --> 00:27:42.820
when Copernicus found that the Earth was

631
00:27:42.820 --> 00:27:44.700
not the center of the universe.

632
00:27:45.580 --> 00:27:47.340
I think he got shouted down pretty heavily

633
00:27:47.340 --> 00:27:50.180
for that, but that's the truth. We know that

634
00:27:50.180 --> 00:27:53.100
now. Uh, I can't remember who it was, but,

635
00:27:53.580 --> 00:27:56.100
um, another thing that goes back quite a way,

636
00:27:56.100 --> 00:27:59.100
when, uh, the discovery was made that our

637
00:27:59.100 --> 00:28:01.460
sun is actually a star. I mean, for a long

638
00:28:01.460 --> 00:28:04.220
time we didn't know that. You know,

639
00:28:04.220 --> 00:28:06.060
it's. It's about knowledge as much as

640
00:28:06.060 --> 00:28:07.260
anything, I think.

641
00:28:07.580 --> 00:28:08.620
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. Yep.

642
00:28:09.020 --> 00:28:10.020
Andrew Dunkley: I love that one, though.

643
00:28:10.020 --> 00:28:11.260
Professor Fred Watson: That's right. Yeah.

644
00:28:11.260 --> 00:28:11.700
Andrew Dunkley: It's about.

645
00:28:11.700 --> 00:28:12.620
Professor Fred Watson: The sun's Great.

646
00:28:12.860 --> 00:28:15.340
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. I think you can look it up. It's online

647
00:28:15.340 --> 00:28:17.180
somewhere. I did it as a quiz question once

648
00:28:17.180 --> 00:28:19.940
on the radio, and, um, got a great response

649
00:28:19.940 --> 00:28:22.100
to that, because people just, in the modern

650
00:28:22.100 --> 00:28:24.420
era never thought that there would have been

651
00:28:24.420 --> 00:28:26.660
a time where people look at this, this hot

652
00:28:26.660 --> 00:28:28.140
ball in the sky and go,

653
00:28:29.780 --> 00:28:32.780
what is that? Um, and, you know, looking at

654
00:28:32.780 --> 00:28:34.300
all the other stars, not making the

655
00:28:34.300 --> 00:28:36.900
correlation. They just didn't know. It's, um.

656
00:28:37.460 --> 00:28:39.740
It was incredible. So I suppose, Rennie,

657
00:28:39.740 --> 00:28:42.060
it's, it's, it's about knowledge. It's about

658
00:28:42.060 --> 00:28:44.620
expanding our understanding of life, the

659
00:28:44.620 --> 00:28:47.140
universe and everything and not stopping at

660
00:28:47.140 --> 00:28:50.060
42. Um, that's the way

661
00:28:50.060 --> 00:28:50.820
I look at it.

662
00:28:52.260 --> 00:28:54.460
Professor Fred Watson: I think you're. And I think you're absolutely

663
00:28:54.460 --> 00:28:56.700
right. I think, um, you know, both. That's

664
00:28:56.700 --> 00:28:58.540
two sides of the same thing. We're, we're.

665
00:28:59.410 --> 00:29:01.370
But it's why we, why we do this sort of

666
00:29:01.370 --> 00:29:03.650
thing. It's why is. We're a curious species

667
00:29:03.650 --> 00:29:04.050
and.

668
00:29:04.050 --> 00:29:04.690
Andrew Dunkley: Absolutely.

669
00:29:04.690 --> 00:29:05.650
Professor Fred Watson: Knowledge is power.

670
00:29:05.730 --> 00:29:08.370
Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's another thing. Yeah,

671
00:29:08.370 --> 00:29:10.930
absolutely true, Rennie. Great question. Good

672
00:29:10.930 --> 00:29:12.970
one for discussion and debate and keep, uh,

673
00:29:13.250 --> 00:29:15.050
them coming. If you'd like to send questions

674
00:29:15.050 --> 00:29:18.050
into us, um, you can do so through our

675
00:29:18.050 --> 00:29:20.890
website, spacenutspodcast.com

676
00:29:20.890 --> 00:29:23.690
spacenuts IO. They're the two URLs.

677
00:29:23.690 --> 00:29:25.370
And, uh, while you're there, have a look

678
00:29:25.370 --> 00:29:28.140
around. Uh, the AMA button at the top, Ask

679
00:29:28.140 --> 00:29:30.700
me Anything is where you send your questions.

680
00:29:30.700 --> 00:29:33.460
Ask me anything, text or audio. Don't forget

681
00:29:33.460 --> 00:29:35.100
to tell us who you are and where you're from.

682
00:29:35.660 --> 00:29:37.980
And, uh, you might want to click on the

683
00:29:37.980 --> 00:29:40.940
Support our podcast button, uh, and

684
00:29:41.100 --> 00:29:43.819
help us out if you so desire. Never,

685
00:29:43.900 --> 00:29:46.310
ever going to make it mandatory. But, uh,

686
00:29:46.310 --> 00:29:48.140
there are advantages to becoming

687
00:29:49.100 --> 00:29:51.980
a supporter, uh, of the podcast, so

688
00:29:52.060 --> 00:29:54.340
check that out as well and visit the shop

689
00:29:54.340 --> 00:29:56.640
while you're there. That also helps us buy a

690
00:29:56.640 --> 00:29:59.280
sticker, buy a cap, buy a shirt, buy

691
00:29:59.920 --> 00:30:02.680
whatever. We should have Space Nut sunscreen.

692
00:30:02.680 --> 00:30:05.520
You know, it would make sense. Anyway,

693
00:30:05.790 --> 00:30:07.920
uh, you can do it all on our website. Fred,

694
00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:09.600
thank you so much. Always a pleasure.

695
00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:13.240
Professor Fred Watson: Good to talk, Andrew. And, um, I'm sure we'll

696
00:30:13.240 --> 00:30:14.000
do it again soon.

697
00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:17.480
Andrew Dunkley: Yes, I'm sure we will. It, uh, could be a few

698
00:30:17.480 --> 00:30:19.640
minutes, could be a week, who knows? Uh, and

699
00:30:19.640 --> 00:30:21.760
Huw in the studio, thanks to him for doing

700
00:30:21.760 --> 00:30:23.200
everything he does. We don't know what that

701
00:30:23.200 --> 00:30:25.760
is, but we appreciate it. And from me, Andrew

702
00:30:25.760 --> 00:30:28.000
Dunkley, thanks for your company. See you on

703
00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:29.600
the next episode of Space Nuts.

704
00:30:29.600 --> 00:30:30.200
Professor Fred Watson: Bye. Bye.

705
00:30:31.480 --> 00:30:33.720
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706
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