#441: The Return of Phosphine & Space Debris Dilemmas

Andrew Dunkley welcomes Professor Fred Watson to space nuts

Andrew Dunkley: Hi there. Thanks for joining us yet again on yet another episode of the yet to be heard SpaceTime Nuts. Uh, my name is Andrew Dunkley, your host. And it's good to have your company coming. Uh, up on this episode, uh, we talked about it before it was rebuked. Debunked. And the door was shut on it. And that was life in the atmosphere of Venus And we only spoke about it the other day. And yet again, it has made the news. Uh, we'll tell you all about it. Uh, we're also going to look at, uh, some movement on the issue of SpaceTime debris. You might remember there were a couple, couple of incidents recently with houses hit and people thumped and all sorts of because of SpaceTime junk. Well, it, uh, looks like they're going to literally move on that issue. And we're going to talk about a, uh, man that, uh, Fred Watson has, uh, worked with in the past. A man who, uh, had, um, a wonderful astronomy career, uh, has recently passed. But a real advocate, uh, for dark skies, David L. Crawford. That's all coming up on this edition of SpaceTime Nuts.

Generic: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal. Ten, nine. Ignition sequence start. Uh, SpaceTime Nuts 5432 123-455-4321 SpaceTime Nuts. Astronauts report it feels good. Good.

Generic: And making his moves in this episode will be Professor Fred Watson Watson. Hello.

Professor Fred Watson: Uh, yes, everything in the universe moves, so I might as well move as well, which is great. Good to see you.

Andrew Dunkley: You too. You too. Uh, I just got back from Sydney. I didn't have time to rush over to your, uh, side of the city. Would have taken way too long.

Professor Fred Watson: Hope you do some, um, time.

Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, we'd love to, but, uh, we were moving our son into a new apartment. And, um. Yeah, it was, uh. Yeah, he's very happy. It's a lovely place. It's in a very nice suburb. It's off a main road. In fact, it's nowhere near a main road, so it's really quiet.

Professor Fred Watson: Um.

Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, he's done well. I'm very proud of him and, uh, we both are. And, uh, it all went well until I stubbed my toe on a concrete step and, um, I just hit it at the perfect angle to cause mayhem and destruction. So, ended, um, up in, uh, a doctor's surgery and had to have, um. Yes, the pressure relieved by drilling a needle through the top of the nail. I don't recommend it.

Professor Fred Watson: No. Did you get any kind of local anaesthetic for that or did you?

Andrew Dunkley: No, he just, uh. We actually. It was funny because we were having a really long conversation while he was doing it. I think was more for me to keep his mind off it than mine because I didn't really care. Um, I've had so many needles stuck in me over my life.

Professor Fred Watson: Well, I suppose that's true.

Andrew Dunkley: Just another one. Uh, I must say he was very good. It didn't, um, didn't hurt at all. There was already a lot of pain there, so maybe it did notice, but. Yeah, um. Yeah, just completely. Yeah. Just have been the perfect angle to cause the damage because I hadn't. I had shoes on. But, um, still, um. I won't show it to you. You don't? Thank you.

Professor Fred Watson: It's very kind of you.

Andrew Dunkley: It's that colour.

Professor Fred Watson: Oh, gosh, yes. I can imagine.

Andrew Dunkley: Black and blue.

Professor Fred Watson: A freak accident, though. And one that you could have done well, done without, uh, probably. Was that before or after you, uh, moved all the furniture?

Andrew Dunkley: Uh, it was in the middle of all that. We didn't have to move the big stuff, but lots and lots of boxes full of, you know, bits and pieces. So it was very difficult. But anyway, it's done. He's happy. We're all happy. I'm home and on the mend. Um, I hope you haven't had any incidents of.

Professor Fred Watson: So far. So far, it's all been smooth sailing and let's hope it continues that way.

Andrew Dunkley: Yes. All right, we better get down to business now.

Scientists say they've detected phosphine in Venus' atmosphere again

We, uh, did only a week or two ago, talk about this, um, supposed discovery of phosphine in the atmosphere of Venus which the discoverers suggested could mean signs of life. But then that was debunked and it's sort of been going backwards and forwards for the last, uh, as it turns out, four years. Four years since that discovery.

Professor Fred Watson: It's amazing, isn't it?

Andrew Dunkley: And now it's back to theory number one, because the people who made that discovery have gone back, uh, to their original concept with, uh, a new sort of element to add to the argument. So they're again saying it is phosphine and we, you know, we are going to stand by this discovery.

Professor Fred Watson: That's correct. And, um, I think that, uh, this one, this time it might stink. Andrew, I think it might be, uh, one that is much harder to refute, uh, by the, uh, not the naysayers, just the sceptics, the people who, as we all do in the world of science, think. Well, is that really correct? Uh, so, yes, that discovery made back in 2020, um, the same Tim, basically. And actually that Tim includes a really good friend of mine on, um, the island of Hawaii in Hilo, uh, uh, uh, in fact, that's where the telescope is and that's why he's there. Um, the telescope is called the James Clark Maxwell telescope. It's, uh, not at Hilo, it's on the summit of Mauna Kea, which is the mountain, uh, that really makes up, along with Mauna Loa, the, uh, bulk of, uh, the big island of Hawaii. Uh, as you know, one of the, um, best observing sites in the world for northern hemisphere astronomy. Um, the, uh, James Clark Maxwell telescope itself quite a well established and old facility. And unlike some of the other ones which sit right on top of the mountain, uh, where you can see them from all over the island. And that causes all kinds of grief, which is quite understandable. Uh, the JCMT is nestled in a valley on top of the summit. There are valleys up there. It's quite an interesting geography. And, uh, that's to keep it away from terrestrial microwave radiation because the James Clark Wexwell telescope is a microwave telescope. So once again, this Tim has, uh, pointed their telescope, uh, at the planet Venus But this time they have, um, a new receiver on, um, the telescope. And that apparently is the game changer in this, uh, work. Uh, it's certainly giving them a good deal more confidence in the results that are coming out of it, uh, and much more of the data themselves. Uh, so, um, basically, uh, and the bottom line is that, um, in each of the three observing campaigns they've done with the James Clerk Maxwell telescope, they've got 140 times more data than they did with the original detection. So that's why they are much more confident in their results. Uh, uh, this is a quote from Dave Clements, who's a reader in astrophysics at Imperial College in London. And, uh, one of the Tim members, uh, um, what we've got so far indicates that we once again have phosphine detections. Uh, and so that's, you know, it's a bold thing to do to go back to your original target knowing perhaps that you've got a better instrument, uh, and have another look. And, uh, it looks as though they are much more confident. But, uh, there's also, um. You know, it's a, uh. But wait, there's more story because there is more to this. There is another observing Tim, uh, which is, ah, working on a different part of the microwave spectrum and they think they've detected the gas ammonia. Uh, and that apparently, um, is basically.

Andrew Dunkley: Um.

Professor Fred Watson: An even bigger puzzle. So, quoting Dave clements again, he said that is arguably more significant than the discovery of phosphine. We're a long way from saying this, but he's saying it anyway. We're a long way from saying this, but if there is life on been listening producing phosphine, have no idea why it's producing it. However, if there is life on been listening producing ammonia, we do have an idea why it might want to breathe ammonia. And that is, uh, the interesting part of this. And just to elaborate again, another comment from Dave Clements. Phosphine has been discovered in the atmosphere of Saturn, but that's not unexpected because Saturn is a gas giant, and there's an awful lot of hydrogen in its atmosphere. So any hydrogen based compounds like phosphine or ammonia are what dominate there. But the same is not true of, uh, rocky planets, uh, like our own, and, uh, been listening and Mars. Uh, and that's why, um, you know, the possible detection of these hydrogen based compounds, phosphine and ammonia, are, uh, so unexpected on Venus

Andrew Dunkley: Well, it does open up a can of worms, and it could be worms, I'm not sure. But what are the odds of it being life? I know, I know. They say they're a long way from saying it is, but it could be. Or. Well, I suppose the alternative question what else could be causing the existence of phosphine and ammonia?

Professor Fred Watson: That's the right way to look at it. Um, well, it's very. Dave Clements, um, is certainly talking the talk and giving us some very good, uh, quotes here. Uh, phosphine and ammonia have both been suggested as biomarkers, including on exoplanets. So finding them in the atmosphere of been listening is interesting on that basis as well. When we published the phosphine findings in 2020, quite understandably, that was a surprise. Um, and so he makes the point that, uh, other instruments have not actually made that detection. And they include, uh, the been listening express spacecraft, which is, uh, an ESA spacecraft in orbit around Venus They include, uh, something called the IRTF, which is a NASA facility, again, on Hawaii, not actually very far from the James Clark Maxwell telescope, NASA infrared telescope facility. Uh, and observations made, uh, with, uh, actually an observatory that another of my friends has worked on, uh, Sofia, which was the airborne NASA observatory on that, uh, 747 sp in the back of it, uh, that's now no longer flying, uh, but that, uh, when it was and also obviously observed Venus and they didn't find these phosphine findings. So there's a number of different, uh, uh, investigations that have not turned up, uh, uh, the gas phosphine. And I am getting to the answer to your question in a minute, Andrew. I'm working around to it. Um, but they've ruled out. One of the things that was suggested as being a contaminant, uh, when that first lot of phosphine observations were released, and that was sulphur dioxide. Uh, and that, um, is basically ruled out now by, uh, the atacama large millimetre, sub millimetre array. Uh, alma, but the key thing here, and again, I'm going to quote, uh, Dave clements, it turns out that all our observations that detected phosphine were taken as the atmosphere of been listening moved from night into day. And all the observations that didn't. Fine. Phosphine were taken as the atmosphere moved from day to night. Um, and the suggestion is that, uh, the ultraviolet light from the sun actually breaks up these molecules as it moves, uh, um, from day to night. Um, so if you take them, at the end of the day, the molecules have all gone, uh, because the sun's basically baked it out, as Dave Clements puts it, all phosphine is baked out, and that's why you don't see it.

Andrew Dunkley: Okay.

Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. So, um, that suggests that the phosphine observations might be real and they might be, um, sort of being replenished, if I can put it that way. Because if you've got phosphine, that at the end of the day isn't there, uh, it's been baked out, but at the beginning of the day, it is there, uh, um, it suggests that something is forming phosphine. And maybe that is an indicator of life.

Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, you got to wonder what kind of life that could be. And it would be residing in the upper atmosphere because it's too hot for anything down on the planet.

Professor Fred Watson: That's correct. And there's nasty things as well. There's all the sulfuric acid at lower levels, um, down in the, uh, droplets. Cloud. Sorry, the clouds of been listening further down. Yeah. So, look, it's. They're suggesting what they're suggesting, and this now is a quote from, uh. Uh, actually, once again from Dave Clements. I thought we're going to get another voice, but, um. Um, ammonia, uh, actually, let me quote. Jade Greaves is professor of astronomy at Cardiff University.

Scientists say Venus ammonia may be caused by living organisms

And actually, I think she's the leader of, uh, the Tim. Uh, she says the exciting thing behind this will be if it's some kind of microbial life making the ammonia, because that would be a neat way for it to regulate its own environment. Uh, it's really interesting that they, you know, that they are so confident with these observations. They're actually trying to look at what mechanisms living organisms might. Might be using, uh, to create the phosphine or the ammonia so I think they'd put it at 50 50. I'm just reading between the lines here myself. I'd put it lower. I think that maybe, you know, it's. We've barked up this tree so many times, Andrew, uh, looking for um, rock solid biomarkers and they're very, very difficult to find. Even if you find something that you think is only caused by living organisms there's probably always going to be another chemical way, purely uh, chemical way that you might form it and that might not have been found yet.

Andrew Dunkley: Right. So it could just be some kind of chemical reaction you need to Venus

Professor Fred Watson: Maybe so. Caused by just the unusual conditions in the upper atmosphere.

Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, well they certainly are unusual. Although we're really working hard to get there ourselves, aren't we? It's um. Yes, um. It's a great story.

Professor Fred Watson: Hopefully uh.

Andrew Dunkley: They're right about the phosphine and the ammonia and hopefully, uh. And they're not absolutely saying that it's caused by life but uh. Let's hope it's true. It would be wonderful to discover life beyond earth as we. And our focus is on Mars and Enceladus and um, you know, ice moons in general. But Venus been listening certainly sounds like it's a candidate worthy of further investigation. This is SpaceTime Nuts Andrew Dunkley here with Professor Fred Watson Watson there. Three, two, one. Space nuts.

There have been several incidents of space debris hitting the ground recently

Uh, now to uh, another um thing in astronomy and SpaceTime science that keeps popping up in the news. Space debris. And there's been plenty of uh, debris hitting the ground in recent times and uh, it's starting to become a real concern. There have been incidents around Florida, there's been incidents in Australia. Um, it's happening in several places.

Professor Fred Watson: Um.

Andrew Dunkley: And this is because we're seeing so very many launches around the world and Florida's been a bit of a hotbed of uh, uh, SpaceTime launches in recent times. But uh, that incident we talked about a few weeks ago has um. It sounds like it's sort of become the straw that's broken the camel's back in certain respects, Fred Watson?

Professor Fred Watson: I think that's correct, yes. The um, bit of debris that came through somebody's roof in Florida. Um, because no SpaceTime launch organisation wants to be responsible for something coming back and injuring or killing somebody. Now that's not happened yet but uh, there were worried that it will. Uh. But this is a little bit more specific than just the very large numbers of spacecraft that are being launched. It's to do entirely with the dragon SpaceTime, um, capsules which are a product of SpaceX. Uh, they are flown on SpaceX, uh, rockets. They're falcon nine rockets. Uh, and the dragon capsules come in two flavours. Uh, one is crew dragon, which has humans on board and the other is the dragon, which doesn't, uh, which is a cargo spacecraft. Um, so there are two different kinds and they've both, um, been significant numbers of both actually, uh, which have flown. In fact, if I can, I'll uh, find it. Uh, there have been uh. I can't remember how many of the uh, crew dragon missions have been, uh, um, several. But there have been more than 2020 of the cargo dragon missions. So you see, you know, the crew dragon missions tend to make big news because they're carrying astronauts, the cargo dragon ones don't and there are far more of them. Uh, they're the ones that dock remotely with or um, autonomously with the international Space Station and sure enough they unload cargo. Uh, and um, that's great. So the dragons, um, there are more of them than we tend to hear about is what I'm getting at. Uh, but, but um, both of them, both the crew dragon and the cargo dragon capsules have uh, uh, what is called the trunk, um, and that is uh, basically it's what we used to call the service module in the Apollo era. And in fact, I think Boeing still call it the service module for their starliner, uh, spacecraft. But uh, the trunk component, uh, so it's a cylindrical, uh, SpaceTime vehicle, uh, which uh, sits between the capsule itself carrying either crew or cargo and the launch vehicle. Um, and I think it probably is the second stage of the launch vehicle that it sits on top of. So that trunk is the bit that is the culprit here because it's bits of those trunks, uh, that have fallen in various different places including Australia, not very far from Canberra, including the one that went through the roof in Florida, including North Carolina and Saskatchewan in Canada. All of these places have had bits of uh, SpaceX, uh, dragon trunks falling on them. And so uh, SpaceX have gone back to the drawing board, uh, to look at why this is happening, uh, and to try and understand how it can be prevented. Uh, and there are two things I think that have changed. Uh, one is that they have changed the landings of the, the dragon spacecraft, um, from the east coast, uh, off Florida to the west coast of uh, the United States, uh, so that they will start landing the dragon capsules themselves in the Pacific rather than the Atlantic. In fact, they're basing their operations, uh, out of Long beach, uh, California for um, what's called post flight processing. In other words, going and recovering, uh, the dragon capsules and then they will be transported across country, back to Florida for the next launch. Uh, so that's one thing that they've done. And the other is that that's a big thing, though.

Andrew Dunkley: That's not going to be a cheap move.

Professor Fred Watson: Huge. That's right. It's going to cost them because they're not just pulling these things, uh, out of the water, uh, right next door to where they're going to launch it the next time. Um, it's got to go across country. So, yes, it will cost them, but, uh, the other thing is that they'll shift, um, the time that, uh, the reentry burn, uh, starts. Because I think, if I'm remembering this correctly, uh, uh, uh, the situation has been that they have separated the crew dragon capsule from the trunk before they have fired the trunk burn to bring it back. And I think they're going to do that afterwards. Now, I hope I've got that the right way around. But the bottom line, you know, we're not flying the spacecraft, so it doesn't really matter. But it's, it's, it's a change in the way that they will actually initiate the reentry of the, of the trunk. Uh, and the hope there is that they, that it will achieve high enough velocities to burn up completely. But if it doesn't, it will fall in a much more safe zone. It's much likelier to fall over ocean than over land. That's the bottom line.

Andrew Dunkley: Right. Well, it's good that they've taken notice of the problem and they're making moves to reduce the potential impact. So, uh, that'll come as a relief to a lot of people and probably insurance companies, too. I mean, it sounds funny, but they've been talking about it, um, becoming a thing for homeowners and business owners in certain parts of the world that have a lot of these potential, uh, problems. Um, and yeah, that could jack up premiums. And, uh, it also, um, reduces the risk to human life, which is the most important thing. So, uh, it does sound like they're making a, some positive moves, Fred Watson.

Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's right. I think it's a good outcome. And let's see what happens. Let's see.

Andrew Dunkley: Yes, if you'd like to read up on that story, it's available on phys p dash y s.org dot.

Professor Fred Watson says David Crawford warned the world about light pollution

This is SpaceTime Nuts. Andrew Dunkley here with Professor Fred Watson Watson.

Professor Fred Watson: Okay, we checked all four systems and here we go. Space nets.

Andrew Dunkley: One more thing before we wrap it up, Fred Watson. And a uh little bit of sad news. Uh, David Crawford. David L. Crawford passed away uh, just uh, in the last couple of weeks at the age of 93. This is a fellow who uh, has worked for, had a very long and wonderful career in astronomy. And I believe you've um, crossed paths with uh, David in your career as well.

Professor Fred Watson: Yes indeed, that's right. So actually um. There's a very nice tribute uh to David Crawford on Skye telescope website. Uh. Just the first paragraph of that says it all. With the peaceful passing of David L. Crawford on July 22 at the age of 93, we've lost the person who taught the world about light pollution and warned us all of the threat it poses not just to astronomy but to the entire nocturnal environment. Um. So uh. He basically spent time um at major observatories in the United States. He was an astronomer exactly as you've said. He got his doctorate from the University of Chicago, uh, spent time at Yerkes Observatory um and uh, uh. Basically wound up in Tucson, Arizona at the Kitt Peak National Observatory which is the equivalent of siding spring in the United States. And put it in context of uh. Our national observatory here in uh, northwestern New South Wales, Kitt Peak, uh, not very far from Tucson. And um. Basically he was really interested in uh. The structure of an evolution of. Of star clusters and galaxies. Absolutely uh. Front rank, uh, uh, astronomy problems back in 1960 when he joined the stuff at Kit Peak. Um. And in fact he uh. Basically morphed from those studies into uh the two great four metre telescopes that were being built in the 1960s uh and early seventies. Um. And in fact our anglo australian telescope which was commissioned exactly 50 years ago in uh 1974. Uh. That telescope was a copy uh of at some level a copy and a general copy in design of the two four metres that Dave Crawford was responsible for. Uh one at Kitt Peak that's called the mail telescope and the other at the Cerro Talolo Inter American Observatory in Chile which is down not far, far from La Sirena if I remember rightly. Um. So uh. These two big telescopes focused his mind and attention on what could stop observatories and he very quickly realised that 100 kilometres from Kitt Peak uh there was Tucson with half a million people at that time uh. And that it was a city that was getting brighter and brighter and that was a threat to the environment of the telescopes.

Andrew Dunkley: Uh.

Professor Fred Watson: But he um. Basically went uh. On a mission to encourage the city to think about this. Uh. And they very quickly enacted legislation uh, uh, to protect the darkness of Kitt Peak. And that's where it all started. So, uh, along with a gentleman called Tim Hunter, who was an amateur astronomer who'd also been concerned with that. Uh, so that was the start of the dark sky movement, uh, in the world during the 1980s in particular. Now, I met Dave, uh, when he came here for a dark sky conference to Australia. It would have been probably 20 years ago. Um. Um, I met him through, uh, another really good friend, a colleague, sadly, who also is no longer with us, Reg Wilson. He was mister dark skies in Australia. He used to carry around with him a newspaper cutting from 1973, which said, now it's light pollution. Uh, and it was quoting him, uh, uh, you know, uh, who, uh, having. Having worked with Dave Crawford, knew what light pollution was all about and that it was not just bad for astronomers, but bad in general.

Andrew Dunkley: Uh, yes, it is, because it's bad for human health, exposure to light. We need darkness to get a decent night's sleep, basically.

Professor Fred Watson: That's correct. That's absolutely right. So it's all about circadian rhythms. And, uh, my other half, Marnie, as you know, she's talked about this on spacenotes. She's, uh, um, getting to be a world authority on this, uh, as we speak. In fact, she's doing a lot of radio interviews because National Science Week here in Australia, uh, next week, as we speak today, that will feature ducts like, uh, pollution, uh, as its focus. Uh, so, uh, it's become much more widely understood than it was before. We now know as well that nocturnal animals and even some, uh, you know, non nocturnal species, uh, are badly affected by light pollution. So we know much more about it. The International Dark Sky association was formed in 1988. Um, and uh, actually there's a quote from, uh, uh, the 1988, May 1988 issue of sky and Telescope, uh, that reported on that, uh, formation. Uh, it's now called dark sky International. But it was then the International Dark Sky association. Uh, Crawford said lack of awareness rather than resistance to change is generally the biggest problem in controlling light pollution. And I think that remains the case today. I think it's just people are ignorant of what it's all about.

Andrew Dunkley: Yes, yes. And they need to be educated. And, uh, the torch continues to be held by, uh, your good wife, Marnie and many other people around the world. But it all started with, uh, this great man and, uh, David L. Crawford, uh, who has, uh, passed away.

Andrew Dunkley: Thank you for listening to Space Nuts podcast

Uh, Fred Watson, we're going to end on that note. Thank you very much.

Professor Fred Watson: Always a pleasure, Andrew. And, uh, we'll talk again soon, I hope.

Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, like could be a few minutes. Has that joke run out of puff yet? I don't know, but, um, I keep.

Professor Fred Watson: Telling it, I didn't think it was a joke. I just thought it was what we do next.

Andrew Dunkley: Absolute reality. Yes. All right, we'll see you soon. And I, uh, forget, by the way, uh, if you are, uh, um, on social media, you can watch us on YouTube. And don't forget to subscribe. You can talk to other SpaceTime Nuts listeners via our, uh, Space Nuts podcast group favourite page or our other favourite page, which is the genuine article. But, um, yeah, they both get plenty of traffic. Uh, we're on Instagram. We're everywhere. And we'll be back here, uh, very, very soon with another episode. Oh, and thanks to Huw in the studio, for reasons I'm still to glean. But, uh, thank you, Huw, and from me, Andrew Dunkley. Thanks for your company. See you on the next episode of Space Nuts. Bye bye,

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