Why Venus May Have Lost Its Moon Forever | Space Nuts: Astronomy Insights & Cosmic Discoveries

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Language: en

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Hi there. Thanks for joining us. This is


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Space Nuts, where we talk astronomy and


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space science and dogs and cats living


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together and just about anything really.


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There's there's no topic that is uh ever


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um ignored. Even when you don't want us


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to talk about it, we'll talk about it.


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Actually, we've got one of those stories


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in this episode. Uh not the first one,


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though, because uh we we're going to


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discuss Venus. Now, in many ways, Venus


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is just like Earth, except for one


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striking difference. Aside from the


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weather, it doesn't have a moon. Why


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not? Well, um yeah, there's probably a


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very dark reason for that. Uh satellite


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pollution. Uh we're not talking about


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satellites in orbit uh polluting our


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skies and making life for astronomers


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very difficult. We're talking about when


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they come back into the atmosphere and


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literally pollute our uh our atmosphere.


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We'll see what's going on there. And the


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United States Space Force uniforms have


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been unveiled. At least one concept. And


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it's got some tongues wagging, some


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chins wiggling, and some people


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scratching their heads. We'll talk about


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all of that on this episode of Space


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Nuts.


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>> 15 seconds. Guidance is internal. 10 9


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Ignition sequence start.


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>> Space nuts.


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>> 5 4 3 2 1 2 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1


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>> Space Nuts. Astronauts report. It feels


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good.


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>> And he's back once again. It's Professor


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Fred Watson, astronomer at large. Hello,


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Fred.


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>> Uh, hello, Andrew.


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>> You mean we're not going to cover


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migraines again this week or


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>> Why not? We can do that if you like.


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We've talked about that before. Um,


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>> yeah. Yeah, we did. Yeah, I mean we've


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reached that age where the first topic


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because I I'm the captain of the the


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veteran golfers at our local club


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>> and um the the first topic whenever you


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sit down is um your health and and what


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have you had done this week?


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>> Well, yes, I'm sure that's right. Um


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because I'm a little bit older than you,


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my topics are even more interesting. So,


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I was at a presentation last night where


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they were talking about


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>> uh coffins made out of mushroom fiber.


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>> Oh my goodness.


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>> Yeah.


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>> Okay. That is different.


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>> It's different. Yeah. Different. But


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apparently it works.


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>> Well, it' be a lot cheaper, wouldn't it?


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>> Yeah. They don't last very long. Two


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days, I think, is the time it takes to


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decay.


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>> Wow.


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>> No, I think actually I think it might be


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a bit longer than that. Uh very


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interesting presentation though on um


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the from the symbiosene institute uh


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which is looking at the ways that


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humankind can live more comfortably with


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its home planet rather than being the


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terrible colonial


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um species that we've been to date.


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>> Yeah. The problem with that is you've


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got to get everyone to agree.


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>> Uh exactly. And that was about going to


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be my point which I never really got to


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to raise. But that's all right.


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>> I mean people come up with all these


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wonderful ideas about how we can do


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things right. But um you know some


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countries will go well you know we don't


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want to do that.


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>> So we're not.


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>> So I think um just as as an idea though


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and as a concept I think this has much


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to much to uh um approve of. Uh, and and


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the reason what took me there was um


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Manne was part of a panel discussion


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yesterday.


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Excuse me. I'm sorry. Sorry, man. I


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sneezed in the middle of your promo


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there. Uh, she was part of a panel


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discussion at which one of the other


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guests was was a a an advocate. In fact,


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the founder of the Symbiosene Institute.


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Well, I think if you're going to um try


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to make those kinds of changes in in the


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psyche of humanity, it's going to be a


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multigenerational


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>> approach. It's not going to be something


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we all just go to do, you know, the next


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day. Okay, we're now doing this.


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>> Yeah.


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>> Yeah. It just wouldn't happen.


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>> No, you're right. Humans don't work that


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way. But uh


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>> hopefully with enough panic from climate


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change.


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>> Yeah.


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>> Some things will change.


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>> Yes.


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>> Yes. Uh certainly needs to happen that


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way. Um


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>> indeed.


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>> Should we get down to business?


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>> Well, well, why not?


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>> All right.


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>> Our very first question uh is um


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focusing on our twin planet. Um when we


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say twin, we're the good twin. It's the


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evil twin. We're talking about Venus. I


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mean, size-wise, it's similar to Earth.


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In fact, everything about it is similar


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to Earth. Size, mass, gravity, that kind


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of thing. Except it's got a god-awful


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weather pattern


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>> and it doesn't have a moon. And that's


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the subject of this particular story


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because they're trying to figure out


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why.


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>> Indeed, that's right. Uh, yes. often


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referred to as Earth's ugly sister


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because because of all the things that


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you've mentioned, the similarities and


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and um as we're recording, it's very


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prominent in our evening skies at the


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moment. Really can't fail to see the


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planet Venus as it approaches its


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greatest distance from the sun, greatest


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angular distance from the sun.


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>> In fact, it may even have passed it.


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I've kind of lost track with my


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confinement to hospitals and things of


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that sort recently. Uh but it is still


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very spectacular in the evening sky.


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Anyway, a planet about the size of ours


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uh of of which we know a lot um thanks


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to orbiting spacecraft which have


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carried with them radar uh equipment in


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order to be able to map the surface


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because the atmosphere of course is


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largely opaque. Uh you can penetrate the


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atmosphere down to surface in infrared.


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That was done actually by one of my


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former colleagues at the Anglo


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Australian telescope, David Allen, back


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in the 1990s I think or maybe 1980s


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using infrared uh radiation managed to


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see the surface of Venus which is quite


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a spectacular outcome. Yeah.


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>> Um but the best way to do it is with


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radar and from that we can see the


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topography. This jury I think is still


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out on whether uh Venus has plate


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tectonics because we see conflicting uh


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results. But the one thing that we do


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know for absolute certain uh is that it


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doesn't have a moon. Um uh Mercury and


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Venus the only two planets in the solar


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system that do not have satellites is do


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not have natural satellites. So um so


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that the the question that you would ask


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as a scientist is is that significant?


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Is that um you know is it is it just


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happened just the fact that the the


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planet happens not to have a moon or


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whether it is a situation where Venus


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once did have a moon and given that


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moons are pretty common throughout the


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solar system


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>> perhaps there was a similar formation


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event to the event that formed our moon


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when the object size of Mars clouded the


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earth in the early history of the solar


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system and eventually that coalesed to


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form the moon. Uh which by the way I I


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read a headline not very long ago that


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looks as though that formation of the


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moon from that debris cloud might have


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happened very very quickly and I can't


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remember how quickly it was but it was


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surprisingly quickly.


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>> You might have seen that too.


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>> I think uh Jonty and I did actually do


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that story about


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yeah um so yeah we I was trying to find


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it actually through my notes. M


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>> see my notes. This is these are all past


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episodes. All my notes,


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>> but I couldn't find.


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>> Yeah. Well, it's just a neat pile. It's


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not file,


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but um I couldn't find it, but I Yeah, I


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was trying to remember what we did about


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Venus previously and that was it.


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>> Yes.


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>> Okay.


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>> Anyway, um so yes, so Venus may have had


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the same experience. uh what uh would


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have happened though if uh Venus had had


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a moon? Why isn't it there now? And so


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this is the uh thesis of uh a group of


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scientists um led by um Steven Kaine


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who's at the University of California,


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Riverside. Uh he uh and his colleagues


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have looked to see you know what might


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have happened had Venus had a moon. So


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it's all done by modeling of course. Um


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they they their comments uh more or less


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as we've just related. Uh this is this


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is a comment from Steven. Venus


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undoubtedly experienced large impacts


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just as Earth has and so has had as much


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if not more opportunity to form a moon


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similar to what we see in our own skies.


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>> Uh so all right put a moon there in your


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modeling um and see what happens. And


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this is the interesting bit because


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um there is a really very neat


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explanation for why Venus doesn't have a


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moon that comes almost straight out of


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the out of the modeling. Uh and it's all


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about the what they describe as the


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gravitational tugofwar between Venus, a


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hypothetical moon, and the sun. And if


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you track this over billions of years,


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what you get is a situation


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opposite to what we've got on planet


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Earth. And that is that the the laws of


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physics dictate uh that because the um


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there is a basically an impulse given to


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the moon from the earth's rotation


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slowing down uh it means the moon is


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drifting away from earth. And that's


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something we've talked about. It's well


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known, well established. Uh one of those


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phenomena that we recognize as being


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scientific fact. But uh what they what


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they found what these researchers found


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when they put the same sort of analysis


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into Venus and a moon uh the moon would


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go the other way. uh it would basically


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eventually um it would start to drift


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inwards towards Venus and spiral into


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towards the planet eventually passing


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within the ro limit which is where you


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can't have something uh staying together


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because of the competing gravitational


00:10:33.040 --> 00:10:35.110
pull on one side and the other what we


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call the tidal effect. Um so it would


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break up um and uh if you know even a


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even a big moon uh would not necessarily


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survive. Uh in fact one of the comments


00:10:49.920 --> 00:10:51.670
that Steven Kaine makes is an


00:10:51.680 --> 00:10:53.750
interesting aspect is that a heavier


00:10:53.760 --> 00:10:56.790
moon is destroyed faster since a massive


00:10:56.800 --> 00:10:58.870
moon would drain Venus's spin so


00:10:58.880 --> 00:11:01.190
efficiently that it hastens its


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destruction.


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uh and so um that is the basic outcome


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of this work. Um I think uh in fact I'm


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sure that they they looked at a whole


00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:18.870
variety these researchers of different


00:11:18.880 --> 00:11:20.389
scenarios


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uh and one of the questions they


00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:23.990
addressed was are there any


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circumstances under which a venian moon


00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:29.350
could actually survive


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>> and the comments that Steven Kane made


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on this uh survival came down to two


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main things. Venus had to be spinning


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fast when the moon formed with a day


00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:43.750
shorter than about 12 hours. And the


00:11:43.760 --> 00:11:45.670
moon couldn't be too massive up to


00:11:45.680 --> 00:11:48.230
roughly the mass of our own moon. In


00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:50.150
that narrow window, the moon migrates


00:11:50.160 --> 00:11:52.069
outwards and stabilizes much as the


00:11:52.079 --> 00:11:55.190
Earth's did. Outside that range, the


00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:57.509
moon is unfortunately doomed to be


00:11:57.519 --> 00:12:01.030
consumed by Venus. So, a surviving moon


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would have to be modest in size,


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orbiting a rapidly spinning early Venus,


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which are conditions that don't match


00:12:07.760 --> 00:12:10.150
what we think the early Venus was


00:12:10.160 --> 00:12:13.590
actually like. Uh, and so, you know, the


00:12:13.600 --> 00:12:19.030
the upshot of this is uh maybe indeed


00:12:19.040 --> 00:12:21.829
Venus did have a moon which eventually


00:12:21.839 --> 00:12:25.190
was essentially gobbled up by Venus. was


00:12:25.200 --> 00:12:27.829
vifted inwards was torn apart and the


00:12:27.839 --> 00:12:30.389
debris essentially rained down on on the


00:12:30.399 --> 00:12:33.190
planet. Um


00:12:33.200 --> 00:12:37.750
the the next step would be essentially


00:12:37.760 --> 00:12:41.430
to to look for any what you might call


00:12:41.440 --> 00:12:44.230
geological evidence


00:12:44.240 --> 00:12:49.430
uh on Venus that would give you some in


00:12:49.440 --> 00:12:52.470
some hints that this is what happened.


00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:53.750
Uh, forgive me, Andrew, because I think


00:12:53.760 --> 00:12:55.190
I'm about to sneeze.


00:12:55.200 --> 00:12:57.030
>> Yeah, I've been fighting one for the


00:12:57.040 --> 00:12:58.949
last few minutes, too.


00:12:58.959 --> 00:13:01.190
>> Why are we both sneezing? It's the time


00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:03.030
of year. That's right.


00:13:03.040 --> 00:13:05.829
>> Let me um quote again, uh, Stephen


00:13:05.839 --> 00:13:08.550
Kaine. Uh, finding direct observational


00:13:08.560 --> 00:13:11.910
evidence is pretty tough. A moon lost


00:13:11.920 --> 00:13:13.750
billions of years ago would leave little


00:13:13.760 --> 00:13:15.829
to no direct trace we can point a


00:13:15.839 --> 00:13:17.590
telescope at today.


00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:20.310
>> So, we can't observe the event itself.


00:13:20.320 --> 00:13:22.550
However, there are indirect avenues. For


00:13:22.560 --> 00:13:25.990
example, if a moon was destroyed and its


00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:28.470
debris rained down on Venus, it could


00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:30.310
have left a chemical fingerprint in the


00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:32.949
planet planet surface or atmosphere. And


00:13:32.959 --> 00:13:35.269
upcoming missions to Venus, including


00:13:35.279 --> 00:13:37.269
NASA's Dainci,


00:13:37.279 --> 00:13:39.269
uh will measure the atmospheric


00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:41.509
composition in detail. So, it is


00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:45.030
possible uh that we might eventually um


00:13:45.040 --> 00:13:47.590
find something. Uh, one other comment


00:13:47.600 --> 00:13:49.590
from Steven Kaine is there's a broader


00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:52.069
test beyond our solar system because our


00:13:52.079 --> 00:13:54.470
results predict that slowly rotating


00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:57.030
Venus-like planets around other stars


00:13:57.040 --> 00:14:00.069
should generically lack large moons. So,


00:14:00.079 --> 00:14:02.230
as astronomers begin searching for moons


00:14:02.240 --> 00:14:04.949
around exoplanets, that's a prediction


00:14:04.959 --> 00:14:06.790
that can eventually be checked against


00:14:06.800 --> 00:14:07.990
real data.


00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:09.990
>> Uh, so yeah, it's very very nice piece


00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:12.389
of work. I think a very interesting


00:14:12.399 --> 00:14:14.790
outcome as well. Yeah, and it sort of


00:14:14.800 --> 00:14:17.509
hops back to a story from a few weeks


00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:20.710
ago about uh how they do think they have


00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:25.670
found continental size um anomalies but


00:14:25.680 --> 00:14:29.430
deep in our crust that suggests parts of


00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:30.310
thea exist


00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:32.870
>> might be parts of the right yes indeed.


00:14:32.880 --> 00:14:33.189
Yeah.


00:14:33.199 --> 00:14:35.750
>> So yeah then you can draw a similarity


00:14:35.760 --> 00:14:37.509
there and so yeah there probably is


00:14:37.519 --> 00:14:39.990
evidence if that's indeed what happened


00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:43.590
but yeah how do you find it?


00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:46.710
Well, um we're very uh resourceful in


00:14:46.720 --> 00:14:48.389
that regard. I think I think um


00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:49.829
scientists particularly astronomers


00:14:49.839 --> 00:14:52.870
because they, you know, they've got


00:14:52.880 --> 00:14:54.949
all they've got is what comes in usually


00:14:54.959 --> 00:14:57.030
on electromagnetic radiation apart from


00:14:57.040 --> 00:14:59.829
a few satellites going here and there.


00:14:59.839 --> 00:15:03.990
>> Uh but yes, it's um it it's uh uh I I


00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:07.269
think we we might well get some hints as


00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:09.350
to whether this has happened in the past


00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:10.069
or not.


00:15:10.079 --> 00:15:12.790
>> Yeah. Okay. Uh if you'd like to read up


00:15:12.800 --> 00:15:14.629
on that story, great article at


00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:17.990
space.com or you can uh see the


00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:20.710
pre-perviewed paper on the repository


00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:23.670
site archive. This is Space Nuts with


00:15:23.680 --> 00:15:27.670
Andrew Dunley and Professor Fred Watson.


00:15:27.680 --> 00:15:29.189
Time to take a short break from the show


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00:16:46.639 --> 00:16:48.389
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00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:50.230
>> Roger. You're here also.


00:16:50.240 --> 00:16:51.590
>> Spacenuts.


00:16:51.600 --> 00:16:55.189
>> Okay. Uh let's uh get close to home. In


00:16:55.199 --> 00:16:57.269
fact, uh we're getting right down and


00:16:57.279 --> 00:16:59.430
dirty into our own atmosphere with this


00:16:59.440 --> 00:17:01.509
story. and it's got to do with satellite


00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:03.829
pollution. Now, the number of satellites


00:17:03.839 --> 00:17:05.990
that are starting to appear in our sky


00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:09.510
is um somewhat disturbing when it comes


00:17:09.520 --> 00:17:13.270
to um optical astronomy. In fact, I saw


00:17:13.280 --> 00:17:15.590
a photo the other day where this problem


00:17:15.600 --> 00:17:18.230
was exhibited uh where they' done a


00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:20.150
little bit of time lapse


00:17:20.160 --> 00:17:23.270
>> and the satellite tracks across that


00:17:23.280 --> 00:17:25.829
image were horrifying.


00:17:25.839 --> 00:17:27.350
uh if you're an astronomer, they were


00:17:27.360 --> 00:17:30.230
probably really interesting for other


00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:32.390
people, but uh it it it looked the same


00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:35.669
as um you know, the contrails that you


00:17:35.679 --> 00:17:39.029
see airliners leave in the sky. Um and


00:17:39.039 --> 00:17:41.350
but it was it was actually the the light


00:17:41.360 --> 00:17:44.390
reflection images of of the satellites.


00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:45.990
But the other problem with them is when


00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:49.029
they come back down, uh they burn up.


00:17:49.039 --> 00:17:51.590
And what happens to all that stuff? And


00:17:51.600 --> 00:17:54.390
that's the nuts and bolts of this story


00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:56.230
because they've chased a couple down to


00:17:56.240 --> 00:17:58.789
try and figure out what happens to, you


00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:02.230
know, everything that burns off them.


00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:06.950
Exactly. So, and it's it is a um this uh


00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:08.950
essentially experiment is very well


00:18:08.960 --> 00:18:11.350
timed because at the moment we're um


00:18:11.360 --> 00:18:13.669
with the Starlink constellation which I


00:18:13.679 --> 00:18:16.789
think is kind of already past 12,000 uh


00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:19.510
spacecraft uh not all of them


00:18:19.520 --> 00:18:21.830
functioning. um they are those are


00:18:21.840 --> 00:18:24.549
re-entering at about one a day. That's


00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:27.110
the current rate. And every time one of


00:18:27.120 --> 00:18:29.270
those uh re-enters the atmosphere, it


00:18:29.280 --> 00:18:31.430
burns up at about 90 kilometers or


00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:33.430
thereabouts above the above the earth's


00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:37.590
surface. And its contents, its metallic


00:18:37.600 --> 00:18:39.190
contents become part of the upper


00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:40.710
atmosphere.


00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:43.510
uh and we already are seeing um higher


00:18:43.520 --> 00:18:45.669
levels of certain oxides of aluminium


00:18:45.679 --> 00:18:48.070
and things of that sort that are uh that


00:18:48.080 --> 00:18:50.710
are probably the result of these uh


00:18:50.720 --> 00:18:54.549
re-entering satellites. So uh the


00:18:54.559 --> 00:18:57.590
European Space Agency


00:18:57.600 --> 00:19:02.390
uh has uh I think uh in collaboration


00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:05.830
with a number of other organizations. Uh


00:19:05.840 --> 00:19:08.549
what they've done is they have decided


00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:09.909
that they're going to check this out


00:19:09.919 --> 00:19:12.630
directly and the way they've done that


00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:16.230
is by hiring a private jet as you do.


00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:21.029
Um, and it's uh using that uh private


00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:23.990
jet, they've basically chased a pair of


00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:26.150
re-entering satellites which um both


00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:29.270
were due due to re-enter uh at about the


00:19:29.280 --> 00:19:33.110
same u place I think a day apart. Um and


00:19:33.120 --> 00:19:36.150
so what they've done is um actually


00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:39.029
basically followed these in a jet which


00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:43.590
is foned with uh spectrometers uh images


00:19:43.600 --> 00:19:46.470
and all of the equipment that we use to


00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:49.430
try and learn about what's happening uh


00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:52.950
when things burn up in space. Uh and so


00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:55.909
uh the um essentially the uh the


00:19:55.919 --> 00:19:59.430
satellites were were tracked in detail.


00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:03.590
Uh I I like the um the the the


00:20:03.600 --> 00:20:05.430
spacecraft that they chose because there


00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:07.430
was there was a constellation called


00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:09.430
cluster which I think we might have


00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:11.270
talked about many years ago European


00:20:11.280 --> 00:20:13.750
Space Agency constellation which had


00:20:13.760 --> 00:20:16.789
four individual spacecraft


00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:19.990
uh which were named after well-known


00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:23.590
dances Tango, Sambber, Rumba and Salsa


00:20:23.600 --> 00:20:26.470
uh were the quartet of uh of the cluster


00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:28.789
spacecraft and they they actually were


00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:30.549
studying being the the way the earth's


00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:33.510
magnetic field uh interacts with the


00:20:33.520 --> 00:20:35.830
solar wind. So, and they were launched


00:20:35.840 --> 00:20:38.149
back in I think back in the '9s. It's a


00:20:38.159 --> 00:20:42.310
long long time ago, but their orbits um


00:20:42.320 --> 00:20:45.510
were decaying and in fact Rumba and


00:20:45.520 --> 00:20:47.830
Salsa I think decayed quite some time


00:20:47.840 --> 00:20:52.070
ago. So what uh was in question here was


00:20:52.080 --> 00:20:54.149
since they you know these spacecraft are


00:20:54.159 --> 00:20:55.990
still sending telemetry back so you you


00:20:56.000 --> 00:20:58.070
know what their velocity is you know


00:20:58.080 --> 00:20:59.909
when and where these things are going to


00:20:59.919 --> 00:21:02.149
reenter the atmosphere uh and it was


00:21:02.159 --> 00:21:06.950
tango and sambar uh which were basically


00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:10.310
uh um they had controlled re-entry and


00:21:10.320 --> 00:21:12.230
there it was basically that re-entry


00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:15.669
that was uh observed by this mission


00:21:15.679 --> 00:21:18.549
using uh a chaser jet if you can put it


00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:19.190
that way.


00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:19.909
>> Yeah.


00:21:19.919 --> 00:21:23.029
>> Uh over the South Pacific Ocean. So, uh


00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:25.350
what we've seen, I think, is that this


00:21:25.360 --> 00:21:29.430
was successful. There's been a um a bit


00:21:29.440 --> 00:21:32.630
of a report saying that, um that the


00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:34.789
outcome of the experiment was successful


00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:36.149
and that they got the data that they


00:21:36.159 --> 00:21:38.549
wanted. uh I'm not sure whether we yet


00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:42.470
have the details of what that analysis


00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:45.110
was, you know, in terms of what the


00:21:45.120 --> 00:21:49.110
exact effects on the atmosphere and the


00:21:49.120 --> 00:21:51.510
byproducts that came from uh the


00:21:51.520 --> 00:21:53.350
re-entry of these two spacecraft. So I


00:21:53.360 --> 00:21:55.270
think those those results are still yet


00:21:55.280 --> 00:21:58.230
to be uh to be described, but at least


00:21:58.240 --> 00:22:00.549
the experiment worked. Apparently there


00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:02.870
there were eight scientists on board uh


00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:06.870
this aircraft and um they observed this


00:22:06.880 --> 00:22:09.830
the satellites from about 90 kilometers


00:22:09.840 --> 00:22:12.950
down to something like 65 to 70


00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:14.950
kilometers when they stopped basically


00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:18.470
stopped burning up. Uh so they they were


00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:21.190
then completely vaporized. uh so these


00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:23.909
details uh as I said we we hope we will


00:22:23.919 --> 00:22:26.950
find a little bit more uh as the results


00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:30.870
come from that group of scientists when


00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:34.070
they've finished analyzing the data and


00:22:34.080 --> 00:22:37.029
start uh publishing uh it could turn


00:22:37.039 --> 00:22:38.630
into something quite controversial


00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:41.190
because if if they reveal that there's


00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:43.750
some really nasty stuff coming out of


00:22:43.760 --> 00:22:44.710
all of this


00:22:44.720 --> 00:22:46.310
>> you know a handful of satellites doing


00:22:46.320 --> 00:22:48.789
this probably no big deal but we we're


00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:51.510
going to be talking over decades to


00:22:51.520 --> 00:22:54.630
come, tens of thousands


00:22:54.640 --> 00:22:55.110
>> burning up.


00:22:55.120 --> 00:22:56.870
>> Exactly. Probably more.


00:22:56.880 --> 00:22:57.669
>> Yeah.


00:22:57.679 --> 00:22:59.669
>> When when it's one a day, which it is


00:22:59.679 --> 00:23:01.750
now, then you're you're potentially in


00:23:01.760 --> 00:23:02.950
trouble. And you're you're absolutely


00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:04.789
right, Andrew, because you know, one of


00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:07.909
the possibilities is something we we


00:23:07.919 --> 00:23:10.230
thought we'd licked back in the 1980s,


00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:11.909
and that's ozone depletion.


00:23:11.919 --> 00:23:14.149
>> Yeah. Um that's one of the possible


00:23:14.159 --> 00:23:16.870
outcomes of this and that would then


00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:20.470
become a really hot political hot hot


00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:23.669
potato politically uh given that you've


00:23:23.679 --> 00:23:25.270
now got people saying well we've got all


00:23:25.280 --> 00:23:26.870
these pollutants that are actually


00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:28.390
starting to affect the behavior of the


00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:30.230
upper atmosphere and on the other side


00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:31.510
of the coin you've got people saying


00:23:31.520 --> 00:23:33.029
well we need Starink because it's


00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:35.909
actually a vital uh service it's vital


00:23:35.919 --> 00:23:38.149
infrastructure now on so many fronts


00:23:38.159 --> 00:23:40.070
>> you've got a really quite interesting


00:23:40.080 --> 00:23:42.710
situation emerging I think. sure have


00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:44.950
and


00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:48.070
yeah where do you


00:23:48.080 --> 00:23:49.909
where do you point the finger if if you


00:23:49.919 --> 00:23:53.510
want to put it that way uh how do you um


00:23:53.520 --> 00:23:55.350
curtail these effects and whose


00:23:55.360 --> 00:23:58.070
responsibility does it become


00:23:58.080 --> 00:24:00.310
>> yeah you start looking I think at uh


00:24:00.320 --> 00:24:02.149
what you make your spacecraft out of the


00:24:02.159 --> 00:24:03.830
Japanese have demonstrated that you can


00:24:03.840 --> 00:24:05.830
make wooden spacecraft and and operate


00:24:05.840 --> 00:24:07.510
them successfully


00:24:07.520 --> 00:24:09.669
>> uh and I think wood is one of the more


00:24:09.679 --> 00:24:11.510
benign


00:24:11.520 --> 00:24:14.390
materials that um that would burn up. Of


00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:15.909
course, you still got soot and carbon


00:24:15.919 --> 00:24:18.549
coming off that, but um it might not be


00:24:18.559 --> 00:24:22.070
the aluminium that um is certainly the


00:24:22.080 --> 00:24:24.070
the biggest constituent of what what


00:24:24.080 --> 00:24:25.590
come what is coming from present


00:24:25.600 --> 00:24:27.590
satellite re-entries.


00:24:27.600 --> 00:24:30.310
>> Yes, indeed. Um so, yeah, it's a case of


00:24:30.320 --> 00:24:33.029
watch this space. Uh we will probably


00:24:33.039 --> 00:24:35.350
learn more about this and and uh we'll


00:24:35.360 --> 00:24:37.190
we'll tell you all about it when uh when


00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:39.110
that day comes. Um, but they'll be


00:24:39.120 --> 00:24:42.549
analyzing the data at the moment and we


00:24:42.559 --> 00:24:44.310
uh we hope it's good news, but I've got


00:24:44.320 --> 00:24:46.390
a feeling it won't be Fred.


00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:48.950
>> Yeah, I think you're right.


00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:51.669
>> Okay. Uh, that is a story you can also


00:24:51.679 --> 00:24:53.990
read at space.com.


00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:55.909
This is Space Nuts. Andrew Dunley here


00:24:55.919 --> 00:25:02.310
with Fred Watson


00:25:02.320 --> 00:25:04.470
base here. The angle has landed.


00:25:04.480 --> 00:25:08.870
>> Space Nuts. Our final story, uh, Fred,


00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:10.630
takes us into the realm of science


00:25:10.640 --> 00:25:13.669
fiction, at least in part. Uh, they have


00:25:13.679 --> 00:25:17.750
just unveiled what might be the new


00:25:17.760 --> 00:25:20.789
United States States Space Force


00:25:20.799 --> 00:25:24.710
uniforms, and they've got tongues


00:25:24.720 --> 00:25:26.630
wagging because they've they've drawn


00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:29.029
some similarities between the uniforms.


00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:31.590
And and when I first saw them, I my mind


00:25:31.600 --> 00:25:34.870
immediately went to um SS uniforms of


00:25:34.880 --> 00:25:35.990
World War II.


00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:37.029
>> Exactly.


00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:39.430
>> And uh that is the controversy because


00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:42.310
they do not sort of I mean it's the


00:25:42.320 --> 00:25:44.230
first thing that comes to mind when you


00:25:44.240 --> 00:25:45.909
when you look at these designs which


00:25:45.919 --> 00:25:48.310
have just been unveiled.


00:25:48.320 --> 00:25:50.630
>> Um and just to clarify where this has


00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:52.470
come from, it's come from Truth Social.


00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:56.390
Uh it's uh one of uh President Trump's


00:25:56.400 --> 00:25:59.190
>> uh basically one of his uh one of his


00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:02.310
posts on Truth Social. The UNC as yet


00:26:02.320 --> 00:26:04.310
unconfirmed design is how it's being


00:26:04.320 --> 00:26:07.190
described. But yes, um that was my


00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:09.350
thought too. When I looked at this, I


00:26:09.360 --> 00:26:11.190
thought, wait a minute, I've seen that


00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:13.830
sort of thing before. Um but you are


00:26:13.840 --> 00:26:16.149
probably aware as well of the sort of


00:26:16.159 --> 00:26:17.990
science science fiction links that there


00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:21.350
are with uh with this where this uniform


00:26:21.360 --> 00:26:22.870
is said to have come from.


00:26:22.880 --> 00:26:26.149
>> Yes. This uh back in the '9s the late


00:26:26.159 --> 00:26:28.950
'90s 1997 there was a movie released


00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:31.190
based on a book called Starship


00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:32.870
Troopers.


00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:34.710
And anybody who's watched that film and


00:26:34.720 --> 00:26:36.870
I've watched it multiple times it's it's


00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:40.310
it's a bit tongue andcheek. Um there's a


00:26:40.320 --> 00:26:43.029
lot of um to use the Australian


00:26:43.039 --> 00:26:46.230
vernacular, jingo is a minute. Um but it


00:26:46.240 --> 00:26:49.750
portrays a a human society that is very


00:26:49.760 --> 00:26:53.669
very authoritarian, very


00:26:53.679 --> 00:26:56.230
very super aggressive. um very


00:26:56.240 --> 00:26:59.990
competitive uh lots of it would be a


00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:04.230
very tense place to live. If Earth as we


00:27:04.240 --> 00:27:07.350
know it um was you know was was the way


00:27:07.360 --> 00:27:10.310
Starship Troopers portrays human life


00:27:10.320 --> 00:27:13.830
and they're at war against the bugs um


00:27:13.840 --> 00:27:16.310
who live on a planet called Clandathu.


00:27:16.320 --> 00:27:17.669
Like you know what's sad about this


00:27:17.679 --> 00:27:20.230
Fred? I'm doing it all from memory. and


00:27:20.240 --> 00:27:22.149
they have been shooting asteroids at


00:27:22.159 --> 00:27:25.110
Earth and um in the movie they destroy


00:27:25.120 --> 00:27:27.750
the city of Buenazaris and that's sort


00:27:27.760 --> 00:27:31.590
of um causes the the humans to up the


00:27:31.600 --> 00:27:33.909
ante in terms of trying to eliminate the


00:27:33.919 --> 00:27:37.110
bugs. Uh and so it goes on. But what's


00:27:37.120 --> 00:27:39.830
striking about it, not only the author


00:27:39.840 --> 00:27:43.269
authoritarian um nature of of of the


00:27:43.279 --> 00:27:48.149
military in this film, is the uniforms.


00:27:48.159 --> 00:27:51.669
They are they are dead set. Um just like


00:27:51.679 --> 00:27:54.710
the uniforms that have been suggested as


00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:57.830
the new US Space Force uniforms. I did a


00:27:57.840 --> 00:28:01.029
bit of research on this Fred. Um uh the


00:28:01.039 --> 00:28:05.909
uniforms in um the 1997 film Starship


00:28:05.919 --> 00:28:08.710
Troopers were deliberately designed by a


00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:12.870
costume designer Ellen Mirro Jin uh to


00:28:12.880 --> 00:28:15.750
evoke fascist aesthetics.


00:28:15.760 --> 00:28:18.070
>> Yeah. So,


00:28:18.080 --> 00:28:19.990
they're basically designed around the


00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:23.029
Nazi military uniform. That was that was


00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:24.710
deliberate. That was done on purpose.


00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:28.389
And now we're seeing these new uniforms


00:28:28.399 --> 00:28:30.070
2026


00:28:30.080 --> 00:28:33.269
um being unveiled uh based on the


00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:37.430
uniforms from Starship Troopers and um


00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:40.230
uh and Star Wars. If you remember, the


00:28:40.240 --> 00:28:42.870
um the Empire uniforms were of a similar


00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:46.149
ilk. They are, look, don't get me wrong,


00:28:46.159 --> 00:28:48.630
they're quite striking. Quite striking,


00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:53.029
but they they immediately put you in a


00:28:53.039 --> 00:28:58.630
um in a mindset of going, "Whoa, what?"


00:28:58.640 --> 00:29:01.430
You're not you're not impressed. You're


00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:03.590
just going,


00:29:03.600 --> 00:29:05.590
"Hello, what what are we thinking here?


00:29:05.600 --> 00:29:07.269
What are we why are we doing it this


00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:09.590
way?" That's that's kind of the reaction


00:29:09.600 --> 00:29:11.830
I had.


00:29:11.840 --> 00:29:14.950
>> And me, too. Um when when I saw it was


00:29:14.960 --> 00:29:16.630
the boots I noticed first I thought wait


00:29:16.640 --> 00:29:17.830
a minute I've seen that sort of thing


00:29:17.840 --> 00:29:18.230
before.


00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:19.430
>> Yeah. Jack boots.


00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:20.070
>> Yeah. Exactly.


00:29:20.080 --> 00:29:20.789
>> More or less.


00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:21.510
>> Yeah.


00:29:21.520 --> 00:29:25.430
>> Yeah. They're quite um I mean I I think


00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:28.149
uniforms are an amazing thing. Uh I I


00:29:28.159 --> 00:29:30.470
don't know where they originated. I I


00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:32.789
did look it up once and I I I think it


00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:34.870
was the British or no the Romans. The


00:29:34.880 --> 00:29:39.669
Romans um that invented uniforms. But um


00:29:39.679 --> 00:29:41.590
everybody has them now and and some of


00:29:41.600 --> 00:29:43.430
them are incredible. I mean, uniforms,


00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:46.310
for some reason, make human beings look


00:29:46.320 --> 00:29:51.510
better somehow. Um, and


00:29:51.520 --> 00:29:53.510
these ones, I don't know if you're going


00:29:53.520 --> 00:29:56.149
to get the right kind of psychological


00:29:56.159 --> 00:29:58.630
reaction


00:29:58.640 --> 00:30:00.549
if they go down this road. And that's a


00:30:00.559 --> 00:30:03.510
that's a big if, I guess.


00:30:03.520 --> 00:30:05.190
>> I


00:30:05.200 --> 00:30:06.470
don't know where this story is going


00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:08.870
really, Andrew. and um you know what


00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:11.750
what we are likely to see coming out of


00:30:11.760 --> 00:30:14.149
the space force itself rather than just


00:30:14.159 --> 00:30:16.870
coming from the president's fertile


00:30:16.880 --> 00:30:20.870
mind. Uh but um yes I I didn't find it


00:30:20.880 --> 00:30:22.549
something that cheered me up


00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:26.230
particularly. I uh I thought it was very


00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:27.430
much along the lines that you've


00:30:27.440 --> 00:30:28.950
described, something that we could


00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:31.669
probably well do without uniformly. So,


00:30:31.679 --> 00:30:32.149
>> yeah.


00:30:32.159 --> 00:30:34.630
>> But, uh what I would say to uh Space


00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:36.549
Nuts listeners is have a look for


00:30:36.559 --> 00:30:38.870
yourself and but you know, be your own


00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:40.630
judge, don't you don't have to believe


00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:43.990
what we think. Um we're just uh as soon


00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:45.750
as I opened the story that Fred sent me,


00:30:45.760 --> 00:30:47.430
I went


00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:50.470
this what what I before I read a thing,


00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:52.870
I saw the picture and went, "What? What


00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:54.470
are we looking at here? And then I read


00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:59.029
the caption and went, "No,


00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:01.990
seriously." Uh, anyway, have a look. Uh,


00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:03.669
you can see it at


00:31:03.679 --> 00:31:06.310
spaceconnectline.com.au.


00:31:06.320 --> 00:31:10.549
It's um, yeah, or or just do a a search


00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:12.149
through your favorite search engine of


00:31:12.159 --> 00:31:15.430
United States Space Force Service Dress


00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:17.830
Uniform, I think is what it's called.


00:31:17.840 --> 00:31:22.310
Um, and yeah, well, we'll we'll leave it


00:31:22.320 --> 00:31:25.190
to you to decide what you think.


00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:27.430
Uh, it's a it's a difficult one because


00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:31.590
it it's so divisive. Just just that look


00:31:31.600 --> 00:31:34.549
in itself without saying anything um


00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:37.350
would be instantly divisive. I I venture


00:31:37.360 --> 00:31:38.389
to say.


00:31:38.399 --> 00:31:41.430
>> Yeah, you're probably right. Um, yep. It


00:31:41.440 --> 00:31:43.430
um,


00:31:43.440 --> 00:31:45.509
>> yeah, for to me it just it portrays


00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:48.149
arrogance of a kind that um, we we could


00:31:48.159 --> 00:31:48.870
do without.


00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:50.549
>> Yeah, possibly. So,


00:31:50.559 --> 00:31:52.549
>> all right. Uh, yeah, as I said,


00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:54.389
spaceconnectline.com.au


00:31:54.399 --> 00:31:56.710
if you want to check that out. And I


00:31:56.720 --> 00:31:58.549
think we are just about done. Fred,


00:31:58.559 --> 00:31:59.830
thank you so much.


00:31:59.840 --> 00:32:01.269
>> It's a pleasure, Andrew. Always


00:32:01.279 --> 00:32:02.950
interesting to chew the fat over these


00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:04.789
issues, no matter what they are. We did


00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:07.590
get um, away from our normal stocking


00:32:07.600 --> 00:32:09.590
trade there with the uniforms. It's not


00:32:09.600 --> 00:32:12.630
often we talk about uh fashion in terms


00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:14.630
of, you know, space fashion, if I can


00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:15.509
put it that way.


00:32:15.519 --> 00:32:16.789
>> Well, that's what it is, isn't it?


00:32:16.799 --> 00:32:19.350
Really, space fashion. Yeah. Well, we've


00:32:19.360 --> 00:32:21.990
talked about the flight suits.


00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:22.950
>> Certainly. Yes.


00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:24.389
>> Yeah. When they've done major upgrades


00:32:24.399 --> 00:32:26.870
on those and and their incompatibility


00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:29.909
between space agencies, so, you know,


00:32:29.919 --> 00:32:31.669
>> there's always controversy somewhere,


00:32:31.679 --> 00:32:33.750
even in fashion.


00:32:33.760 --> 00:32:35.269
>> Uh, thanks, Fred. We'll catch you on the


00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:35.990
next episode.


00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:38.070
>> Sounds great. Thank you. Professor Fred


00:32:38.080 --> 00:32:40.070
Watson, astronomer at large. And don't


00:32:40.080 --> 00:32:41.669
forget to visit us online between


00:32:41.679 --> 00:32:43.909
episodes at spacenuts.io


00:32:43.919 --> 00:32:46.789
or spacenutspodcast.com.


00:32:46.799 --> 00:32:48.789
And you can send us messages there


00:32:48.799 --> 00:32:50.389
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00:32:50.399 --> 00:32:52.470
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00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:56.310
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00:32:56.320 --> 00:32:57.909
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00:32:57.919 --> 00:32:59.350
want to become a supporter, you can hit


00:32:59.360 --> 00:33:01.190
the supporter button and see how you can


00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:02.789
do that too. And thanks to all our


00:33:02.799 --> 00:33:05.509
supporters uh for getting behind us with


00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:09.029
a a cup of coffee and a and a cream bun.


00:33:09.039 --> 00:33:11.430
Uh and thanks to Hugh in the studio uh


00:33:11.440 --> 00:33:13.430
who couldn't be with us today. He wanted


00:33:13.440 --> 00:33:15.830
be wanted to be the first in line for a


00:33:15.840 --> 00:33:18.630
Space Force uniform and he's still


00:33:18.640 --> 00:33:21.190
waiting. And from me, Andrew Dunley,


00:33:21.200 --> 00:33:22.470
we'll catch you on the next episode of


00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:24.710
Space Nuts. Until then, bye-bye.


00:33:24.720 --> 00:33:27.029
>> Space Nuts. You'll be listening to the


00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:30.070
Space Nuts podcast


00:33:30.080 --> 00:33:33.029
>> available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify,


00:33:33.039 --> 00:33:35.669
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00:33:35.679 --> 00:33:38.070
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