The Dark Matter Hint That Could Rewrite Physics | Space Nuts: Astronomy Insights & Cosmic...

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Hello again. Thanks for joining us on


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Space Nuts, where we talk astronomy and


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space science. My name is Andrew Dunley.


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Thanks for joining us. We've got a


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jam-packed program today. Lots of things


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happening. Uh Casey from Colorado, one


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of our regular Q&A contributors, uh put


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a post on Facebook and I I believe sent


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through an email to us saying, "Have we


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found dark matter?" Well, according to


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uh the Lux Zeppelin uh scientists,


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there's a tiny weeny small chance we


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might have. Let's Yeah, I think that's


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the best way to describe it. Uh there's


00:00:37.520 --> 00:00:40.389
a wonderful story uh involving outback


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astronomy and there's been a new Saturn


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decagon discovered. We'll tell you all


00:00:45.600 --> 00:00:47.750
about that. And a couple of upcoming


00:00:47.760 --> 00:00:50.790
missions. China is uh planning a sample


00:00:50.800 --> 00:00:53.270
return mission to Mars and they've


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whittleled down their 84 potential


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landing zones to 12 and I think they're


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going to get it down to less than that


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perhaps and another similar mission


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headed for Titan. We'll talk about all


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of that on this episode of Space Nuts.


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>> 15 seconds guidance is internal. 10 9


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ignition sequence start. Space Nuts.


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>> 5 4 3 2


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>> 1 2 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1


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>> Space Nuts.


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>> Astronauts reported feels good.


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>> And joining us again is Professor Fred


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Watson, astronomer at large. Hello,


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Fred.


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>> Hi, Andrew. How are you doing?


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>> I am well. How are you?


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um still nursing a new knee. But uh the


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great thing of course always when you've


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had um a replacement knee is that day by


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day it gets better whereas before the


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operation day by day it gets worse.


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>> Yeah. Well, that makes a lot of sense.


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You wouldn't want it the other way


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around.


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>> No, you wouldn't. That's right.


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>> Well, if it was the other way around,


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you wouldn't need a knee operation.


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There you are.


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>> Okay. Uh we should get straight into it


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because we got a lot of topics to


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discuss. And our first story,


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uh, I know I know you've done a bit of


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radio on this one, uh, but, uh, Casey in


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Colorado sent this one through. And


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physicists at the Lux Zeppelin detector


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in the United States think they may have


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may have


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uncovered dark matter. This would be


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extraordinary if they have. Now, the


00:02:23.520 --> 00:02:27.750
odds are pretty low, but they haven't


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said it's definitely not dark matter.


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Would that be a fair assessment? Yeah,


00:02:32.319 --> 00:02:34.229
that's right. Um, actually, I'm looking


00:02:34.239 --> 00:02:37.750
at the wrong um uh the wrong script on


00:02:37.760 --> 00:02:39.350
this at the moment. And in fact, I'm


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struggling to see anything because I've


00:02:40.800 --> 00:02:42.710
got a migraine going on here at the


00:02:42.720 --> 00:02:43.030
moment.


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>> No.


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>> Do you get those where you just get this


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lovely zigzag pattern and cross your


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face? No, I'm very lucky. But my brother


00:02:49.599 --> 00:02:52.390
and sister both get those kinds of


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headaches. And


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>> well, there's no headache. There's no


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headache with it. It's just it's just


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this extraordinary pattern that has uh


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takes about half an hour to to mature.


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Starts off in the middle of your field


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of view when you can't see anything and


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then it broadens out. And it's um


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something I've observed since


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>> I think the first time I remember it, I


00:03:12.239 --> 00:03:14.149
was about 16. The first time I remember


00:03:14.159 --> 00:03:15.509
noticing it. I thought, "Wow,


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>> you know what? I used to have that.


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>> There you go.


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>> And I couldn't explain. I never got it


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checked out. I just thought it was my


00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:23.509
eyes doing stupid things. But I used to


00:03:23.519 --> 00:03:25.350
have a zigzag in


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>> in my vision. And


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>> it happened only a few months ago and


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hasn't happened again since, but it used


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to be quite regular and now it's very


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rare. Well, there you go.


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>> Yeah.


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>> Wow.


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>> That's a it's it's a a basically a spasm


00:03:40.799 --> 00:03:44.229
in a in a nerve in your brain. And and


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the reason you know it's something going


00:03:45.920 --> 00:03:47.670
on in your brain is that it's in both


00:03:47.680 --> 00:03:49.910
eyes. It's not, you know, you can't you


00:03:49.920 --> 00:03:51.750
can't distinguish between the two.


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>> I'm so sorry to have diverted.


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>> No, I know. It's fasc Well, you you've


00:03:55.519 --> 00:03:57.750
actually alerted me to something that I


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didn't even know existed.


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>> There you go. That's a it's a


00:04:01.280 --> 00:04:04.710
headacheless migraine. And um it's Yeah,


00:04:04.720 --> 00:04:06.869
it they sometimes come with quite


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striking colors as well. This one's


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fairly benign, the one I'm looking at at


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the moment,


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>> but it can disrupt what you're trying to


00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:14.630
do. And


00:04:14.640 --> 00:04:15.750
>> yeah, it's not not good if you're


00:04:15.760 --> 00:04:16.390
driving.


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>> No, definitely not.


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>> Yeah. Yeah. So, um, sorry about that.


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The


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>> No, I'm I'm gobsmacked cuz I never knew


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it was a thing.


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>> It is a thing. It is a thing. And you


00:04:26.720 --> 00:04:28.070
had it, you see, and you didn't know.


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You need me to tell you what your what


00:04:29.919 --> 00:04:31.270
your ailments are.


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>> Yeah.


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>> Um, but back to dark matter, maybe.


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>> Yes. um migraines are caused by a dark


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matter interaction. So um as I think


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probably all our listeners know because


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we go on about this stuff interminably


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the evidence for dark matter pime


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primarily has come from the astronomy


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world because we see evidence that uh


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there is material in the universe which


00:05:00.880 --> 00:05:03.909
we cannot detect. Uh and that evidence


00:05:03.919 --> 00:05:06.150
ranges from galaxies spinning faster


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than they ought to if if all that's


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there is dark m is normal matter uh to


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the what we call gravitational micro


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lensing where um objects uh galaxies or


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gravitational lensing rather


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microlensing galaxies in in deep space


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uh their dark matter halos act as a lens


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and you can see its effect on the stars


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behind and that lets you plot out where


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the dark matter lies and we know dark


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matter is where normal matter is. So um


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it's some stuff that is real. Uh but the


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conjecture has always been that if it


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interacts with normal matter at all, it


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is extremely rarely. In other words, you


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know, you need gazillions of collisions


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uh between matter and dark matter for


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one of them to produce a measurable


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signal. Um and so that is the basis of


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some of the detectors that have been


00:06:03.440 --> 00:06:05.670
built around the world to try and detect


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dark matter um directly. Um and in fact


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there's one here in Australia. Um it's


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at a place called Stoil uh in Victoria.


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It's down a gold mine I think. Uh you


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bury these things deep in the earth so


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that you you're minimizing terrestrial


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effects. You minimize anything that


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could be happening uh near the surface.


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Um, and what you do is you typically,


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and the one that we're I should just go


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straight to the one that we're talking


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about, it's an experiment uh at the


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Sanford underground research facility


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uh in South Dakota. Uh, and that is an


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experiment called Lux Zeppelin. Uh,


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usually abbreviated to LZ, I guess it


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would be rather than LZ. LZ uh that uh


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is uh an an experiment that if I


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remember rightly I don't have the my


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notes in front of me on this um it's got


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uh something like about I think it's 10


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tons of liquid zenon uh a something


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that's norm gaseous at normal


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temperature and pressure but is


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liquefied. So 10 tons of this stuff deep


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underground. And what you do is you you


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have a tank which is foned with photo


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detectors. So if anything flashed in the


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uh in the tank of Zenon uh you could


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identify it and more especially uh


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because you've got lots of detectors you


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could uh track a particle if that's you


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know the the way it goes because you've


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got multiple detectors which are all


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active all the time.


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So, uh, that is where it's got to in


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terms of the experiment, but, uh, what's


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happened is they've detected a flash.


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>> Yeah.


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>> Uh, which, um, is a result, uh, I think


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it was announced, um, only a few days


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ago, 1st of September.


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>> Um, the, uh, the, uh, in many ways it's


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it's the first hint, certainly the first


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hint that's come from the USA. uh that


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maybe one of these collisions has been


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observed. Now, um I'm not a particle


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physicist, Andrew, as you know. I'm


00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:22.150
supposed to be an astronomer. Probably


00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:27.029
am actually in some ways. um and uh the


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uh so I'm not sure of the exact nature


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of the observation whether they observe


00:08:34.560 --> 00:08:37.110
uh this flash in different wavelengths


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in other words using different filters


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uh and can analyze what the spectrum of


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that flash looks like or whether it's


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something more subtle than that uh but


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uh that is what is currently going on


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now and I think uh the surprise


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is that this thing has a relatively low


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energy. Uh it's a slow particle. Uh and


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um they're talking about energies of I


00:09:02.720 --> 00:09:06.710
think it's in the region of 200 250 uh


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kilo kilo electron volts KV 248 KV of


00:09:10.560 --> 00:09:12.790
energy in in the detector.


00:09:12.800 --> 00:09:16.230
>> Um now the large collider collides


00:09:16.240 --> 00:09:21.190
particles up to uh terra volt um terra


00:09:21.200 --> 00:09:24.630
volt energies. Uh so a killer volt and a


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terra volt are very wide apart but


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that's uh an interesting aspect of this.


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So I I think it's one of these stories


00:09:31.680 --> 00:09:36.470
that um um will will evolve. Um I I


00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:38.070
mentioned a minute ago that this was the


00:09:38.080 --> 00:09:39.990
first time it's been detected or there's


00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:42.870
any kind of detection in the US and


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that's because there's an experiment at


00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:49.190
uh a facility called Grand Saso National


00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:52.710
Laboratories which is in in Italy uh and


00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:55.990
there's one in China too um which I


00:09:56.000 --> 00:10:01.269
think uh these uh certainly the the


00:10:01.279 --> 00:10:04.389
Italian one has picked up things before


00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:05.670
and there's evidence


00:10:05.680 --> 00:10:07.990
from the Italian operators that they


00:10:08.000 --> 00:10:09.670
thought they'd found a and I think we


00:10:09.680 --> 00:10:11.190
talked about this on space not they


00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:12.389
thought they'd found a seasonal


00:10:12.399 --> 00:10:16.470
variation in the flux of what might be


00:10:16.480 --> 00:10:19.190
dark matter but that's not been


00:10:19.200 --> 00:10:21.430
replicated anywhere else I think that


00:10:21.440 --> 00:10:22.870
was one of the reasons why the stall


00:10:22.880 --> 00:10:25.590
facility uh was initiated down in


00:10:25.600 --> 00:10:28.630
Victoria um in order to to to check


00:10:28.640 --> 00:10:31.030
whether this is real the story that's


00:10:31.040 --> 00:10:34.069
coming from Italy um unfortunately I


00:10:34.079 --> 00:10:35.990
can't read anymore or in Mart has got


00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:38.389
these zigzags across the across the


00:10:38.399 --> 00:10:40.150
field of view which are interesting in


00:10:40.160 --> 00:10:42.389
interesting in their own right but I


00:10:42.399 --> 00:10:44.230
think that's the bottom line there.


00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:46.870
>> Yeah, I think they're saying look it


00:10:46.880 --> 00:10:50.069
could be uh the odds of it being a dark


00:10:50.079 --> 00:10:52.949
matter discovery are.5%


00:10:52.959 --> 00:10:53.910
I think they're quoting


00:10:53.920 --> 00:10:57.910
>> yes that that's right. Um uh it isn't


00:10:57.920 --> 00:11:00.630
that the odds that it's not real? I


00:11:00.640 --> 00:11:01.750
can't remember which way.


00:11:01.760 --> 00:11:03.110
>> Is that what they're saying? Well, I


00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:05.430
might need to just look at that again.


00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:07.190
>> Yeah, I'm trying to find it now.


00:11:07.200 --> 00:11:10.310
>> It's a you know, we think in terms of


00:11:10.320 --> 00:11:11.990
sigma, the number of standard


00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:14.870
deviations. Uh, and this doesn't I think


00:11:14.880 --> 00:11:17.430
five sigma is the normal acceptance for


00:11:17.440 --> 00:11:19.190
a fact. This I don't think is anywhere


00:11:19.200 --> 00:11:21.190
near that, but it's still I think it's


00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:22.949
still got quite a high level of


00:11:22.959 --> 00:11:25.509
probability attached to it. Uh and and


00:11:25.519 --> 00:11:28.310
just to clarify, I'm sorry. Um uh what I


00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:31.030
said was just a bit misleading. That's


00:11:31.040 --> 00:11:35.030
248 kilo kilo electron electron volts is


00:11:35.040 --> 00:11:38.389
actually a recoil. That's a recoil of a


00:11:38.399 --> 00:11:41.030
particle. Um and so they can deduce from


00:11:41.040 --> 00:11:45.430
that that it would be uh at least 200


00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:47.910
gig electron volts that your dark matter


00:11:47.920 --> 00:11:51.030
particle uh would have to would have to


00:11:51.040 --> 00:11:52.949
work out. That's quite an interesting.


00:11:52.959 --> 00:11:54.870
found it. Uh the team reached what is


00:11:54.880 --> 00:11:59.030
known as 2.6 sigma, a.5%


00:11:59.040 --> 00:12:01.030
chance that the event could be explained


00:12:01.040 --> 00:12:02.870
by known backgrounds.


00:12:02.880 --> 00:12:03.430
>> Mhm.


00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:05.670
>> And that is still below a five sigma


00:12:05.680 --> 00:12:08.150
threshold needed to confirm a discovery.


00:12:08.160 --> 00:12:09.910
So there you go.


00:12:09.920 --> 00:12:11.670
>> Bit more complicated than what I


00:12:11.680 --> 00:12:12.629
thought.


00:12:12.639 --> 00:12:15.269
>> Yeah. But it but it's uh intriguing.


00:12:15.279 --> 00:12:17.430
It's, you know, this could just be the


00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:20.550
first in new physics that we've


00:12:20.560 --> 00:12:23.030
been looking for that might give us an


00:12:23.040 --> 00:12:25.750
explanation for what dark matter is.


00:12:25.760 --> 00:12:27.670
Indeed. Uh, they've published their


00:12:27.680 --> 00:12:31.750
findings in the archive. It is yet to be


00:12:31.760 --> 00:12:34.150
uh peer reviewed, but I'm sure it will


00:12:34.160 --> 00:12:35.269
be.


00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:37.110
>> It'll be re reviewed to death. You can


00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:37.509
believe it.


00:12:37.519 --> 00:12:39.750
>> Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Uh, you can also


00:12:39.760 --> 00:12:42.389
read about it on the ABC Science


00:12:42.399 --> 00:12:43.190
website.


00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:45.750
>> Yes. This is Space Nuts. Andrew Dunley


00:12:45.760 --> 00:12:52.310
here with Professor Fred Watson


00:12:52.320 --> 00:12:54.470
base here. The angle has landed.


00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:55.590
>> Space Nuts.


00:12:55.600 --> 00:12:58.629
>> This story, Fred, I love uh because it


00:12:58.639 --> 00:13:02.150
involves an outback astronomer. Uh it is


00:13:02.160 --> 00:13:05.190
a new decagon that's been discovered on


00:13:05.200 --> 00:13:08.150
Saturn uh around its south pole. And


00:13:08.160 --> 00:13:10.710
Trevor Barry has made the news uh out of


00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:13.110
Broken Hill in Outback New South Wales


00:13:13.120 --> 00:13:16.150
because uh he was a part of this find.


00:13:16.160 --> 00:13:18.230
>> Absolutely. Trevor's an old friend.


00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:20.389
Trevor and I go back to the mid 1990s


00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:22.069
when he first visited me at Siding


00:13:22.079 --> 00:13:24.550
Spring Observatory and we hit it off and


00:13:24.560 --> 00:13:28.150
we've been in touch ever since. Um he uh


00:13:28.160 --> 00:13:29.990
let's just do the the Trevor bit of the


00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:32.470
story. Um because this is certainly, you


00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:35.350
know, a doublebarreled story here. Yeah.


00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:39.430
uh he um discovered uh astronomy when he


00:13:39.440 --> 00:13:41.509
was a he wasn't a minor he was a mine


00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:43.030
worker in the I think he was a fitter


00:13:43.040 --> 00:13:44.790
actually in the in the mines in Broken


00:13:44.800 --> 00:13:48.310
Hill uh and um one of his colleagues


00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:51.110
built a telescope and had a look through


00:13:51.120 --> 00:13:53.430
it at the planet Saturn and has been


00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:55.990
hooked ever since um and built a


00:13:56.000 --> 00:13:57.430
succession of telescopes which are


00:13:57.440 --> 00:13:59.509
impressive I've seen uh the one that he


00:13:59.519 --> 00:14:01.829
uses currently it's a 400 mm telescope


00:14:01.839 --> 00:14:03.829
homemade some of its components came


00:14:03.839 --> 00:14:05.750
from an old washing machine. It's great


00:14:05.760 --> 00:14:07.829
stuff. It's kind of, you know, the the


00:14:07.839 --> 00:14:12.069
absolute um uh essence in a way of good


00:14:12.079 --> 00:14:14.389
amateur astronomy. But but with that


00:14:14.399 --> 00:14:17.269
telescope, he observes Saturn. Uh I


00:14:17.279 --> 00:14:18.870
think actually it's not just Saturn. He


00:14:18.880 --> 00:14:20.949
he checks out other giant planets as


00:14:20.959 --> 00:14:23.750
well, but Saturn is certainly his uh


00:14:23.760 --> 00:14:26.150
area of specialtity. And he and he


00:14:26.160 --> 00:14:28.949
checks it out um every clear night. And


00:14:28.959 --> 00:14:31.590
that was why he got co-opted onto the


00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:35.030
Cassini team back in the early 2000s


00:14:35.040 --> 00:14:37.990
with Caroline Porco, the the image uh


00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:41.590
scientist of Cassini. Um uh Trevor was


00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:44.230
the one that said uh there's a storm in,


00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:45.750
you know, Saturn's northern hemisphere.


00:14:45.760 --> 00:14:47.670
You might want to take a look at it with


00:14:47.680 --> 00:14:49.829
Cassini because of course the Cassini


00:14:49.839 --> 00:14:52.069
spacecraft didn't have the global view


00:14:52.079 --> 00:14:53.829
of Saturn. It just had its instruments


00:14:53.839 --> 00:14:56.310
that could be pointed in any direction.


00:14:56.320 --> 00:14:58.389
uh whereas Trevor with his telescope


00:14:58.399 --> 00:15:01.509
could see where the activity was and he


00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:04.230
was their guide. Uh so of course he


00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:06.710
received lots of honors from that. Um I


00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:09.990
know he has spent a lot of time uh


00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:13.030
studying the north polear hexagon of


00:15:13.040 --> 00:15:16.470
Saturn and that's a feature that uh was


00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:18.790
discovered actually by the Voyager


00:15:18.800 --> 00:15:22.949
spacecraft back in the 1980s but was uh


00:15:22.959 --> 00:15:26.069
analyzed deeply by the Cassini mission.


00:15:26.079 --> 00:15:29.990
So this is a it's a jetream. Uh it is a


00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:34.550
a very very regular hexagon. Uh it


00:15:34.560 --> 00:15:36.150
almost looks as though there should be a


00:15:36.160 --> 00:15:37.910
spanner somewhere nearby because it's


00:15:37.920 --> 00:15:38.949
that shape.


00:15:38.959 --> 00:15:39.269
>> Yeah.


00:15:39.279 --> 00:15:42.230
>> Um and it's it's formed by it's


00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:44.470
basically a six peaked wave that's


00:15:44.480 --> 00:15:47.030
formed in a circle. Uh but it it looks


00:15:47.040 --> 00:15:48.949
like a hexagon. You wouldn't be able to


00:15:48.959 --> 00:15:50.710
take a spanner to it because each side


00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:52.870
of the hexagon is 2,000 kilometers


00:15:52.880 --> 00:15:55.269
bigger than the diameter of the Earth.


00:15:55.279 --> 00:15:58.150
So this is large. Now Trevor has studied


00:15:58.160 --> 00:16:00.310
the hexagon in great detail. But of


00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:01.990
course, one of the and he and he's got


00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:03.670
papers with his colleagues from NASA and


00:16:03.680 --> 00:16:06.389
elsewhere with that. One of the um


00:16:06.399 --> 00:16:09.350
things that has puzzled astronomer,


00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:13.030
excuse me, astronomers is um why isn't


00:16:13.040 --> 00:16:14.949
the one in the South Pole? Why isn't


00:16:14.959 --> 00:16:17.430
there a hexagon or something like it


00:16:17.440 --> 00:16:19.749
near the the southern polar region? And


00:16:19.759 --> 00:16:22.310
so that is something Trevor has long


00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:24.389
kept an eye on working with his


00:16:24.399 --> 00:16:26.310
colleagues. Um one of whom is actually


00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:28.550
in Spain. In fact, we were very close to


00:16:28.560 --> 00:16:31.269
where his colleague Augustine works. Uh


00:16:31.279 --> 00:16:34.470
we were very close to where it is about


00:16:34.480 --> 00:16:36.470
a month ago when we were there for the


00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:40.629
eclipse. Um the the bottom line is that


00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:43.749
within the last 3 years they've started


00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:46.150
seeing evidence of something fishy going


00:16:46.160 --> 00:16:48.870
on which has now been followed up by the


00:16:48.880 --> 00:16:50.629
Hubble telescope. And what has been


00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:53.910
revealed is not a hexagon, but a


00:16:53.920 --> 00:16:56.550
decagon, a 10-sided


00:16:56.560 --> 00:17:00.069
uh figure around the south pole of


00:17:00.079 --> 00:17:03.110
Saturn. And the big difference between


00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:05.029
that and the hexagon, we don't know how


00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:06.710
old the hexagon is. We don't know how


00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:08.870
long it's been there, but we do know


00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:10.630
that this decagon has only been there


00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:13.029
since 2023. It's probably still in the


00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:16.870
process of formation. Um, and so this is


00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:19.750
the result of the or the um announcement


00:17:19.760 --> 00:17:21.270
that's been made in this paper within


00:17:21.280 --> 00:17:22.870
the last couple of weeks in Science


00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:26.390
Advances. Trevor is absolutely over the


00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:28.789
moon. Uh, he sent me an email when the


00:17:28.799 --> 00:17:31.590
paper was released and you could tell it


00:17:31.600 --> 00:17:33.350
was bursting with delight as to what's


00:17:33.360 --> 00:17:35.430
happened. He's had um, as always when


00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:37.029
Trevor makes a discovery because he's


00:17:37.039 --> 00:17:39.190
the, you know, the astronomer of Broken


00:17:39.200 --> 00:17:41.510
Hill, he gets a lot of media coverage


00:17:41.520 --> 00:17:44.310
and quite rightly too. uh this year saw


00:17:44.320 --> 00:17:45.750
the publication of a book on his life,


00:17:45.760 --> 00:17:47.909
Outback astronomer, which is a very nice


00:17:47.919 --> 00:17:49.909
book. Uh I was privileged to write the


00:17:49.919 --> 00:17:52.549
forward for it. Um so it's one to look


00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:53.909
out for if you're interested in


00:17:53.919 --> 00:17:56.310
following Trevor's career. More


00:17:56.320 --> 00:17:57.830
especially though, if you're interested


00:17:57.840 --> 00:18:00.310
in following the decagon, there's really


00:18:00.320 --> 00:18:03.190
good news. And that is that at the


00:18:03.200 --> 00:18:06.390
moment Saturn, where it is in its orbit,


00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:11.029
it's moving towards the southern summer


00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:13.510
solstice, which means that the south


00:18:13.520 --> 00:18:18.710
pole region of um of Saturn is tilted


00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:20.789
towards the inner solar system. In other


00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:24.549
words, towards us. Y and so the solstice


00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:28.070
is I think it's April 20 2032. So


00:18:28.080 --> 00:18:29.909
between now and then we'll get better


00:18:29.919 --> 00:18:32.630
and better views of this decagon


00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:34.630
assuming it lasts. I mean it could be


00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:36.390
something that is so temporary it just


00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:38.710
collapses but it's definitely there. Uh


00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:41.510
it's easy to find um pictures of it for


00:18:41.520 --> 00:18:43.190
our listeners who might want to chase it


00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:45.909
up on the web. Um it's um yeah so a


00:18:45.919 --> 00:18:47.750
great discovery with a lovely backstory


00:18:47.760 --> 00:18:50.390
as well concerning somebody who's uh I


00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:51.669
think very special in the world of


00:18:51.679 --> 00:18:52.549
astronomy.


00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:55.110
>> Uh even right down to his corrugated


00:18:55.120 --> 00:18:57.350
ironclad observatory.


00:18:57.360 --> 00:19:00.230
>> Yeah, that's right. Absolutely. It's got


00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:02.470
all the bells and whistles. I I've got


00:19:02.480 --> 00:19:05.029
to I think I remember um I need to check


00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:06.870
it in outback astronomer. One of his


00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:10.710
telescopes is called Fred. Um and um he


00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:12.789
he's made it into an acronym, but um


00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:15.669
he's he's um he's done me the honor of


00:19:15.679 --> 00:19:17.990
naming his telescope after me.


00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:21.510
>> Yeah. Yeah. There's a fabulous story on


00:19:21.520 --> 00:19:23.990
the ABC about him. Uh if you want to


00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:25.909
look it up, uh should be easy to find.


00:19:25.919 --> 00:19:29.750
Just do a search for Trevor Barry uh ABC


00:19:29.760 --> 00:19:33.350
and uh it'll pop up. Um you can read the


00:19:33.360 --> 00:19:36.710
published paper in the journal Science


00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:39.110
Advances. But uh yeah, great story,


00:19:39.120 --> 00:19:40.470
great local connection, and


00:19:40.480 --> 00:19:42.710
congratulations to Trevor and everybody


00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:45.029
involved. And I forgot to say thank you


00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:48.310
to Casey for u um sending us that uh


00:19:48.320 --> 00:19:50.470
that first story about Lux Zeppelin.


00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:53.110
This is Space Nuts, the podcast and the


00:19:53.120 --> 00:19:56.230
radio show on uh community radio across


00:19:56.240 --> 00:19:58.070
Australia with Andrew Dunley and Fred


00:19:58.080 --> 00:20:02.150
Watson


00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:03.350
and I feel


00:20:03.360 --> 00:20:05.270
>> space nuts. Now, we've got a double


00:20:05.280 --> 00:20:07.510
bunger story here because they're of a


00:20:07.520 --> 00:20:09.909
similar ilk in very different parts of


00:20:09.919 --> 00:20:12.070
the solar system. And the first part of


00:20:12.080 --> 00:20:16.470
this story involves China. And they're


00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:18.549
um getting right down to the nuts and


00:20:18.559 --> 00:20:22.150
bolts, nothing to do with Saturn's


00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:23.750
South Pole, but right down to the nuts


00:20:23.760 --> 00:20:25.909
and bolts of finding somewhere to land


00:20:25.919 --> 00:20:31.029
on Mars for a sample return mission


00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:33.510
looking for ancient life. This is very


00:20:33.520 --> 00:20:35.110
exciting.


00:20:35.120 --> 00:20:38.070
>> It is. Um, and I think this is going to


00:20:38.080 --> 00:20:40.070
um I think it's something that's going


00:20:40.080 --> 00:20:41.669
to


00:20:41.679 --> 00:20:44.070
not go unnoticed in the in the halls of


00:20:44.080 --> 00:20:47.350
NASA. Uh, because of course NASA has


00:20:47.360 --> 00:20:49.190
Perseverance on the surface of Mars at


00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:51.270
the moment, which has gathered up all


00:20:51.280 --> 00:20:54.789
these samples of soil and uh dirt from


00:20:54.799 --> 00:20:58.070
the surface of Mars. I it's more than 20


00:20:58.080 --> 00:20:59.590
samples I think they've got now which


00:20:59.600 --> 00:21:02.390
have been left in little containers with


00:21:02.400 --> 00:21:04.149
the idea of picking them up to bring


00:21:04.159 --> 00:21:07.750
them back to Earth for um analysis on


00:21:07.760 --> 00:21:09.590
our planet. But at the moment there's no


00:21:09.600 --> 00:21:11.270
mission planned to do that.


00:21:11.280 --> 00:21:13.110
>> No, they've just left them lying around


00:21:13.120 --> 00:21:15.029
like just like a dog would do.


00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:17.270
>> Yeah, exactly.


00:21:17.280 --> 00:21:20.870
Whereas China um uh they've they're


00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:24.070
planning a mission that will actually do


00:21:24.080 --> 00:21:27.909
it all. Basically, it'll it'll um have a


00:21:27.919 --> 00:21:30.310
a lander on the surface with a rover


00:21:30.320 --> 00:21:32.149
which will


00:21:32.159 --> 00:21:33.669
scout around. I've got a feeling there's


00:21:33.679 --> 00:21:37.430
a drone involved as well. Um it's uh


00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:41.830
it's going to check out good sites.


00:21:41.840 --> 00:21:44.230
It'll drill and I think the drill goes


00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:47.270
is the idea is to go down up to 2 mters


00:21:47.280 --> 00:21:50.870
which is actually what is exoms


00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:54.549
rover is planning to do. uh grab samples


00:21:54.559 --> 00:21:57.830
and then send them back to Earth uh more


00:21:57.840 --> 00:22:01.590
or less immediately. And so this is uh


00:22:01.600 --> 00:22:04.789
it's you know if that happens before we


00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:06.950
get the perseverance samples back I


00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:07.990
think a lot of people are going to be


00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:10.710
miffed about that um what will be even


00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:12.710
more spectacular will be if there were


00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:15.990
signs of past life among the Tanwen 3


00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:18.950
Mars sample returns. So um it's an


00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:23.270
exciting uh uh pro project. I think 2028


00:22:23.280 --> 00:22:28.470
is when uh the launch is going to take


00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:30.870
place. Two spacecraft will actually be


00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:31.909
launched. There'll be two launch


00:22:31.919 --> 00:22:35.110
vehicles. Um one I think for the lander


00:22:35.120 --> 00:22:37.430
and rover, one for the orbiter and and


00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:40.630
the return spacecraft. Uh so as you said


00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:43.029
quite right they had 86 candidate sites


00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:45.510
originally. They've narrowed it down uh


00:22:45.520 --> 00:22:48.310
to uh a dozen. Is that right?


00:22:48.320 --> 00:22:49.830
>> I think it was 12. Yeah.


00:22:49.840 --> 00:22:52.950
>> Yeah. Yeah. And they're all in I think a


00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:55.430
similar part of Mars's equatorial


00:22:55.440 --> 00:22:57.990
region. Places where we know that there


00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:01.510
are clays and of course clays are


00:23:01.520 --> 00:23:03.990
minerals that were formed in water. um


00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:06.070
and they are good at preserving organic


00:23:06.080 --> 00:23:10.149
molecules and maybe uh give us um more


00:23:10.159 --> 00:23:12.710
um more of a chance of finding evidence


00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:14.549
of past life there, you know, DNA


00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:16.310
evidence or something of that sort.


00:23:16.320 --> 00:23:16.710
>> Yeah.


00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:19.750
>> So, um that this is exciting news and I


00:23:19.760 --> 00:23:23.190
um I think it's um you know, it's it's


00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:26.149
hats off to the China National Space


00:23:26.159 --> 00:23:29.350
Administration um for for the plans that


00:23:29.360 --> 00:23:30.710
they're carrying out.


00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:34.390
>> Yes, indeed. It's the Tanwen 3 mission


00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:37.029
cuz they've already done it twice in the


00:23:37.039 --> 00:23:39.430
past. Um, landing things on Mars. But,


00:23:39.440 --> 00:23:41.909
um, I I do believe there is a copter


00:23:41.919 --> 00:23:44.630
involved. I can see that in the


00:23:44.640 --> 00:23:45.750
>> That's right.


00:23:45.760 --> 00:23:47.270
>> in the story there. I just can't find


00:23:47.280 --> 00:23:48.870
any reference to it, but I think they've


00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:50.230
got a


00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:52.630
>> uh Yeah, it looks like it um does ground


00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:56.149
tracking from from the sky, but uh


00:23:56.159 --> 00:23:57.350
>> a little drone.


00:23:57.360 --> 00:23:59.510
>> Now, we know drones work on Mars.


00:23:59.520 --> 00:24:03.430
>> They do. Yeah. Fantastic. And they will


00:24:03.440 --> 00:24:08.390
um be launching this probably in 2028.


00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:09.750
Is that right?


00:24:09.760 --> 00:24:12.630
>> Late 2028. Yes. Uh two separate Long


00:24:12.640 --> 00:24:14.870
March 5 rockets.


00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:18.070
>> And so we we may have answers in the not


00:24:18.080 --> 00:24:19.590
too distant future. All things being


00:24:19.600 --> 00:24:22.149
equal, which um is fantastic. We wish


00:24:22.159 --> 00:24:24.390
them well with the mission. There is a


00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:27.430
similar mission, speaking of NASA, uh


00:24:27.440 --> 00:24:30.390
which is headed to Titan. uh they're


00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:35.350
looking at a 2028 uh launch as well. Um


00:24:35.360 --> 00:24:38.230
and they're off to Titan and they should


00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:41.190
get there in 2034 if they don't forget


00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:43.830
to pay their tolls along the way. Uh


00:24:43.840 --> 00:24:47.029
this this mission is uh the Dragonfly


00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:48.549
mission. I think we have mentioned it


00:24:48.559 --> 00:24:50.870
before, but it's it's getting ever


00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:53.909
closer and they're um they're really


00:24:53.919 --> 00:24:55.430
getting to the pointy end by the sound


00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:57.110
of it.


00:24:57.120 --> 00:24:59.590
>> That's right. So um and you the the the


00:24:59.600 --> 00:25:01.669
announcement is very similar. We've you


00:25:01.679 --> 00:25:03.590
know coming from the Dragonfly team


00:25:03.600 --> 00:25:06.950
they've basically decided where they are


00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:12.549
going to land on Titan. It is uh a an


00:25:12.559 --> 00:25:17.510
area called uh Amakundai


00:25:17.520 --> 00:25:20.789
uh which is a region of dunes. Um, and


00:25:20.799 --> 00:25:24.230
dunes are these are probably dunes of


00:25:24.240 --> 00:25:27.430
ice, actually, ice particles rather than


00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:29.909
sand. Uh, but there's a crater called


00:25:29.919 --> 00:25:32.870
the Selk Crater, which this dune region


00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:36.710
is to the south of. Uh, they think it is


00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:39.830
a really interesting geologically


00:25:39.840 --> 00:25:45.590
uh productive region. Uh and the idea is


00:25:45.600 --> 00:25:49.190
to give the drone uh you know as much of


00:25:49.200 --> 00:25:52.950
a variety of landscape uh as possible to


00:25:52.960 --> 00:25:55.830
to check out. Um this is the the


00:25:55.840 --> 00:25:57.990
Dragonfly drone. Uh I think it's an


00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:01.110
octacopter if I remember rightly. It's


00:26:01.120 --> 00:26:03.590
so I think there's there's a sort of


00:26:03.600 --> 00:26:05.669
range of hills or mountains at the edge


00:26:05.679 --> 00:26:08.870
of this region. And so, um, that's the


00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:12.070
plan to go there with a 3.3year primary


00:26:12.080 --> 00:26:15.990
mission. Uh, and and as I'm I'm reading


00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:18.630
a little blog post here about, uh, about


00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:22.390
what's, uh, what is going to, uh, be


00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:23.909
done with Dragonfly comes from Leonard


00:26:23.919 --> 00:26:26.870
David. Uh it's um once Dragonfly reaches


00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:29.029
Titan, the rocraft will conduct a three


00:26:29.039 --> 00:26:32.310
year 3.3 year primary mission exploring


00:26:32.320 --> 00:26:34.630
diverse environments from organic dunes


00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:37.430
to deposits associated with Silk Crater,


00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:39.590
a place where liquid water and complex


00:26:39.600 --> 00:26:42.549
organic materials key to life once


00:26:42.559 --> 00:26:43.990
existed together.


00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:45.430
>> Remembering of course that the surface


00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:49.269
of Titan is at about minus 190° C.


00:26:49.279 --> 00:26:52.710
>> Yeah. How how is something made on Earth


00:26:52.720 --> 00:26:55.190
like like the Dragonfly spacecraft and


00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:57.190
more particularly the the equipment


00:26:57.200 --> 00:26:59.750
they're going to put down at Selk Crater


00:26:59.760 --> 00:27:01.909
or that area are going to survive that


00:27:01.919 --> 00:27:04.070
long in such a hostile environment? It's


00:27:04.080 --> 00:27:06.950
not a nice place. No, not really. No. Uh


00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:08.630
it's got quite high atmospheric


00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:10.710
pressure, so that'll make the drone


00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:13.110
easier to to fly. That was one of the


00:27:13.120 --> 00:27:14.789
challenges with Mars of course flying


00:27:14.799 --> 00:27:15.750
the


00:27:15.760 --> 00:27:18.950
>> um the helicopter um on Mars was the


00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:21.669
fact that it uh Mars has a atmospheric


00:27:21.679 --> 00:27:23.990
pressure less than 1% of the Earth. So


00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:26.630
ingenuity the helicopter had to had to


00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:29.029
have big wings. Uh perhaps the drone uh


00:27:29.039 --> 00:27:30.950
the Dragonfly drone won't need quite as


00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:33.350
much. But really interesting uh project


00:27:33.360 --> 00:27:36.230
though and one that we and we will


00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:37.990
continue to watch with interest. Andrew,


00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:40.070
>> we will. Yeah. and both those um


00:27:40.080 --> 00:27:42.390
missions coming up very very soon. So,


00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:44.149
uh we're um


00:27:44.159 --> 00:27:47.110
>> yeah, only a few years away from getting


00:27:47.120 --> 00:27:49.110
maybe potential answers to some of those


00:27:49.120 --> 00:27:52.070
great questions that we've been asking


00:27:52.080 --> 00:27:53.269
for


00:27:53.279 --> 00:27:55.909
>> decades and decades. Yes, indeed.


00:27:55.919 --> 00:27:59.750
>> Uh you can um read that story on the


00:27:59.760 --> 00:28:02.389
website leonarddavid.com.


00:28:02.399 --> 00:28:04.149
Uh before we finish up, Fred, I just


00:28:04.159 --> 00:28:05.909
wanted to sort of do some shouting out.


00:28:05.919 --> 00:28:08.230
Um, we've got a a listener that refers


00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:10.710
to him or herself as the web pro in


00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:13.350
Chile listening to us or watching us on


00:28:13.360 --> 00:28:17.190
YouTube live today. And hello to Emily.


00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:20.230
This is She says watching us is cool. I


00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:21.669
think it's very cool. She's listening


00:28:21.679 --> 00:28:25.590
from an offshore oil rig uh oil and gas


00:28:25.600 --> 00:28:27.590
rig in the Indian Ocean off the coast of


00:28:27.600 --> 00:28:31.750
Western Australia. So, um, hi Emily. U,


00:28:31.760 --> 00:28:34.389
we were on a ship crossing that area a


00:28:34.399 --> 00:28:37.750
bit over a year ago. So um yeah uh it's


00:28:37.760 --> 00:28:40.070
um lovely to have you listening along


00:28:40.080 --> 00:28:42.149
and everybody who's uh watching actually


00:28:42.159 --> 00:28:45.430
on on our YouTube channel. We are done


00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:47.750
Fred. Thank you uh so much.


00:28:47.760 --> 00:28:49.830
>> It's a pleasure. Always good. And um


00:28:49.840 --> 00:28:52.789
thanks Andrew for putting up with my


00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:54.710
discussions about me. Great.


00:28:54.720 --> 00:28:56.310
>> Oh no. I'm glad you brought it up


00:28:56.320 --> 00:28:58.470
because I actually learned something.


00:28:58.480 --> 00:28:59.909
>> I'm delighted to tell you it's now


00:28:59.919 --> 00:29:01.190
cleared completely as


00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:03.190
>> it does. That's that's exactly how I


00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:04.389
remember them. They just sort of go


00:29:04.399 --> 00:29:06.950
away. It's It's weird.


00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:08.630
>> All right, see you soon, Fred. Thank


00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:09.269
you,


00:29:09.279 --> 00:29:10.789
>> Professor Fred Watson, astronomer at


00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:13.269
large. Don't forget to visit us uh


00:29:13.279 --> 00:29:14.789
online at our website,


00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:18.230
spacenutspodcast.com or spacenuts.io.


00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:19.590
Have a look around while you're there.


00:29:19.600 --> 00:29:21.430
Maybe leave some reviews wherever you


00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:23.190
listen to us. Uh reviews are very


00:29:23.200 --> 00:29:26.070
helpful to to get our numbers up. Um I


00:29:26.080 --> 00:29:27.990
don't know what the numbers are for or


00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:29.909
what they do, but it's pretty pretty


00:29:29.919 --> 00:29:31.909
important apparently according to Hugh.


00:29:31.919 --> 00:29:33.830
And uh thanks to Hugh in the studio who


00:29:33.840 --> 00:29:35.190
couldn't be with us today because he did


00:29:35.200 --> 00:29:37.750
a sample return


00:29:37.760 --> 00:29:39.590
and they put him in hospital. Uh and


00:29:39.600 --> 00:29:41.750
from me, Andrew Dunley, thank thanks for


00:29:41.760 --> 00:29:43.990
your company. We'll see you on the next


00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:46.310
episode of Space Nuts. Bye-bye.


00:29:46.320 --> 00:29:47.269
>> Space Nuts.


00:29:47.279 --> 00:29:49.350
>> You'll be listening to the Space Nuts


00:29:49.360 --> 00:29:51.669
podcast


00:29:51.679 --> 00:29:54.630
>> available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify,


00:29:54.640 --> 00:29:57.269
iHeart Radio, or your favorite podcast


00:29:57.279 --> 00:29:59.590
player. You can also stream on demand at


00:29:59.600 --> 00:30:02.549
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00:30:02.559 --> 00:30:07.080
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