Space-Time Dragging, Martian Rovers & Stellar Discoveries | Space Nuts: Astronomy Insights &...

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Language: en

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Space Nuts is taking a bit of a break at


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the moment. Uh Fred and I will be back


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uh in the not too distant future with


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fresh episodes. In the meantime, enjoy


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some of uh the key episodes that we have


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presented over the years. Major events


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in astronomy and space science and we'll


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see you real soon.


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>> 15 seconds. Guidance is internal. 10 9


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ignition sequence start.


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>> Space nets. 5 4 3 2


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>> 1 2 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1


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>> Space Nuts.


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>> Astronauts Report. It feels good.


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>> Hello once again and thank you for


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joining us on this edition of the Space


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Nuts podcast and my name's Andrew


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Duckley, your host. And with me for


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episode 193 is astronomer in charge,


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Professor Fred Watson. Hello Fred.


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>> Hello Andrew. I did used to be the


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astronomer in charge. That was my


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>> I thought I said astronomer at large.


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>> Well, it's quite all right. No, it's


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Freudian Freudian slip.


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>> It's And of course, um uh that's why I


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became the astronomer at large because


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you only had to change four letters on


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the office door to make it come numb to


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you.


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>> Yes. Yes. Um the organ and and that sort


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of harps on something we talked about a


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while ago where your organization has


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changed names about two or three times,


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but didn't change the lettering. So,


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didn't change the logo.


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>> Exactly. same logo since 1991.


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>> Okay, that's I think that's amazing. Oh


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dear. Very good. Now, um Fred, have you


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got enough toilet paper at your place?


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Is my big question.


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>> Well, it's very kind of you to ask. Um


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we haven't yet started tearing pages up


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the Astrophysical Journal to use in the


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bathroom.


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>> Did you Did you hear about the Northern


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Territory News, uh the newspaper in


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Darwin? They they published an they


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published an addition last week with


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several blank pages for people.


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>> This whole thing is just insanity at the


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highest level. There's so many people


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panicking over nothing. It's


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>> you might want to explain


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>> You might want to explain the toilet


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paper issue though. I think most people


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are aware, but if you're not aware, I


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don't know where you've been, but uh


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there's been a panic buy up of toilet


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paper in Australia and there all the


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supermarket shelves are empty. Every


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supermarket where I live has got no


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toilet paper because people have been


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panic buying because the prime minister


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said, "Stock up because you might have


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to be isolated for a couple of weeks


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because of the Corona virus." And


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everyone's freaking out about it. Well,


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not everyone. I mean, we don't care, but


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a lot of people are freaking out about


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it. But I I I'm going to bring some


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astronomy into this, Fred.


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>> Oh, good. I wondered where it was going.


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>> I think this is the 2020 version of a


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caveman seeing an eclipse and thinking


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the world's going to end.


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>> Oh, probably.


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>> That's what this is.


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>> Yeah.


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>> So, I think people need to take a long


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hard look at themselves and give


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themselves an uppercut, to use an


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Australian term, and just get on with


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it. This is this is this is ridiculous.


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Totally ridiculous. the the the the good


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news is that um people those particular


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people will you know they'll never need


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to go and buy another toilet roll again.


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Not for eternity.


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>> They'll get like they'll get buried with


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the stuff.


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>> Yeah, that's right.


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>> I I'm suggesting that if they're going


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to, you know, panic buy toilet paper,


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get some baked beans and some long life


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milk so that when you eat it, it will


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taste a bit better.


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>> Now, let's get down to business. Today


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on Space Nuts, we're going to look at


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something that scientists have


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discovered for the first time, and that


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is that spaceime is dragging. Not


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everywhere, but they've found that it is


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dragging in one particular place, which


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sounds unusual. And what does what does


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dragging actually mean? Uh we're also


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going to look at a couple of uh clever


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students um uh in terms of a name for


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the next Martian rover. This follows on


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from Sojourer, which I think is a great


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name. Spirit, opportunity, curiosity.


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So, what are they calling the next one?


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We will tell you. And a 17-year-old


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intern at NASA, day three on the job,


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has found a planet six times uh or


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nearly seven times larger than Earth. I


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mean, how lucky is that? Uh those are


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some of the things we'll look at today


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on Space Nuts with Fred Watson. Let's uh


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start off, Fred, with um the fact that


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spaceime is dragging. What What is it


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dragging and why?


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uh it it's a phenomenon to do with the


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theory of general relativity or rather


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the general theory of relativity which


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of course was produced by Albert


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Einstein in 1915 uh not long after that


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I think about three years later uh well


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let me just step back a minute that


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theory of course says that as soon as


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you put matter into spaceime and


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spacetime is really just space but with


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a fancy name as soon as you put matter


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into it because of course time is part


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of it as well. Um as soon as you put


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matter into spaceime it is distorted and


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that distortion is what we feel as


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gravity. Uh and that in itself is pretty


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hard to get your head around that


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spaceime bends because matter's there.


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But it was about uh I think three years


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later that two Austrian scientists


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uh by the name of Ysef Lenser Hans


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Taring um they worked out that uh you


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would get a phenomenon


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um if you have a an a massive object


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rotating you get a phenomenon which is


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almost a swirling of the spacetime


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around the object. It's called frame


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dragging. Um, and so as the the Earth


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does it, as the Earth turns, it's not


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only distorting the space that's hold


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and holding us on with the the force of


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gravity, but to a much less a much


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lesser degree. It's also dragging the


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the surrounding spaceime with it. Now,


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you're looking baffled, Andrew. It's


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just a lack of sleep because I'm worried


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about where I'm going to get a roll of


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toilet paper.


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Well, just watch out. Don't drag your


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spacetime with it when you when you find


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it. Um, we usually anglicize uh uh Ysef


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and Hans's names to the lens theorying


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procession or lens theoring effect.


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>> Okay.


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>> Um that's um how most people speak of it


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even though they wouldn't have called


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themselves that. Uh so uh okay, it has


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been tested this theory. It was um as I


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said I think it was 1918 when it was uh


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when it was produced. Um but the uh the


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the first test of it was done in the


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early 2000s. A spacecraft called Gravity


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Probe B was launched into orbit around


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the Earth by NASA in collaboration I


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think with Stanford University. Um which


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carried on board very very sensitive


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gyroscopes and by using those uh the


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physicists running this the experiment


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could detect the frame dragging of the


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earth itself. So, it's all about subtle


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motions in the in the the satellite. And


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that tells you that yes, you have proved


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because there's nothing else that would


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give rise to those subtle motions.


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You've proved that frame dragging is


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true. Uh and but it's only been detected


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around the earth. So, now cut to the


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chase. Uh because uh for the first time,


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uh it has now been detected in an


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astronomical object. Uh and this is a


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really nice story because it it pulls


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together uh you know the the the


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fundamental physics of fa frame dragging


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with some of the the big adventures that


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here here in Australia we are taking


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part in particularly in terms of radio


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astronomy. The story goes back 20 years


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actually Andrew


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>> uh to the parks radio observatory uh in


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New South Wales the very same state that


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we are both in at the moment.


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1 hour drive from that telescope.


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>> Yeah. Yeah, that's right. You are


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indeed. Exactly. It's just down the road


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for you. Very very well-known uh


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telescope. The Big Dish it's usually


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called


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>> and very distracting when you're driving


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along the highway because you you just


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want to look at it. But


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>> you can't stop looking at it. I know.


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>> Can't help myself.


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>> I don't have that problem because


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usually when I go down there, that's


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where I'm going.


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>> So, I just watch it getting bigger as


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you get nearer to it. Um 20 years ago,


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uh the Parks radio telescope discovered


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uh a a white dwarf pulsar binary system.


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Um I'll tell you its name and then we


00:08:59.839 --> 00:09:01.430
can get that out of the way. It is


00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:03.030
actually I've got to magnify the screen


00:09:03.040 --> 00:09:06.230
so I can read it.


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>> You should now you're showing


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>> PSRJ141US


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6545. There you are. Put that in your


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diary. It's that's


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>> it already


00:09:18.399 --> 00:09:21.190
>> as have I. It is a white dwarf pulsar


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binary system. What does that mean? It


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means you got a white dwarf star which


00:09:24.640 --> 00:09:27.590
is um an object the size of the earth


00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:29.990
but with the mass of a star in it made


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of electrons all crushed together or the


00:09:32.800 --> 00:09:34.389
electrons are are the only thing that


00:09:34.399 --> 00:09:36.150
hold that hold the thing that stop the


00:09:36.160 --> 00:09:38.870
thing from collapsing. So um that is a


00:09:38.880 --> 00:09:41.910
massive object. uh around it is this


00:09:41.920 --> 00:09:44.230
pulsar which is another massive object a


00:09:44.240 --> 00:09:46.790
neutron star. Uh the the two are in


00:09:46.800 --> 00:09:51.910
mutual orbits and the uh the so the


00:09:51.920 --> 00:09:55.190
telescope discovered that phenomenon


00:09:55.200 --> 00:09:57.350
that the the binary system. So the


00:09:57.360 --> 00:09:59.350
pulsar itself is beaming out radiation


00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:01.670
from its poles. Pulsars as you know


00:10:01.680 --> 00:10:03.190
because you and I have spoken about this


00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:05.990
before uh effectively are extremely


00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:09.269
accurate clocks. They they basically be


00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:12.710
blip out radio radiation as they rotate.


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That's what the parks dish detected


00:10:15.519 --> 00:10:18.310
and um that they're the precision with


00:10:18.320 --> 00:10:20.389
which they do that is better than atomic


00:10:20.399 --> 00:10:23.990
clocks. They they are so regular. Um the


00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:26.550
just as one smaller piece of information


00:10:26.560 --> 00:10:29.670
in this the pulsar itself orbits the


00:10:29.680 --> 00:10:33.829
white dwarf every 4.8 hours. So it's,


00:10:33.839 --> 00:10:35.509
you know, it's a


00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:38.550
>> it's whizzing round. That's right. Um,


00:10:38.560 --> 00:10:41.110
now what has happened over the last 20


00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:43.750
years is that astronomers have been able


00:10:43.760 --> 00:10:47.590
to use this timing phenomenon,


00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:51.190
the regular timing of the pulsar to


00:10:51.200 --> 00:10:55.110
measure the pulsar's position in respect


00:10:55.120 --> 00:10:57.430
to the white dwarf.


00:10:57.440 --> 00:11:00.389
uh because essentially time accurate


00:11:00.399 --> 00:11:02.870
time means accurate distance in terms of


00:11:02.880 --> 00:11:04.470
uh measuring you know the where where


00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:07.430
the pulsar is and it's that measured


00:11:07.440 --> 00:11:10.949
over 20 years that has demonstrated that


00:11:10.959 --> 00:11:13.430
this frame dragging phenomenon is taking


00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:16.870
place out there uh at PSR whatever it


00:11:16.880 --> 00:11:21.030
was uh J 1141 - 6545


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um so what what what the scientists and


00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:27.110
there's a group of scientists from many


00:11:27.120 --> 00:11:29.110
different institutions including


00:11:29.120 --> 00:11:31.829
institutions in Germany. The square


00:11:31.839 --> 00:11:35.269
kilometer array organization that is uh


00:11:35.279 --> 00:11:37.269
the headquarters of this great new


00:11:37.279 --> 00:11:39.110
telescope that we're planning the square


00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:41.750
kilometer array in western Australia and


00:11:41.760 --> 00:11:44.550
in South Africa. Uh the headquarters are


00:11:44.560 --> 00:11:46.790
in Manchester uh or near Manchester at


00:11:46.800 --> 00:11:49.190
the Jodro Bank radio observatory. One of


00:11:49.200 --> 00:11:51.269
the scientists involved with this work


00:11:51.279 --> 00:11:54.230
uh comes from that organization. Uh so


00:11:54.240 --> 00:11:57.190
that means uh he is relatively closely


00:11:57.200 --> 00:11:59.030
connected with Australia because


00:11:59.040 --> 00:12:01.990
Australia is one of the host nations. uh


00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:03.829
so and and I should just mentioned that


00:12:03.839 --> 00:12:06.710
the parks dish uh plus another telescope


00:12:06.720 --> 00:12:08.550
called the Malonglow observatory


00:12:08.560 --> 00:12:10.310
synthesis telescope again here in


00:12:10.320 --> 00:12:12.710
Australia uh which has been involved


00:12:12.720 --> 00:12:14.790
with this work they are both uh


00:12:14.800 --> 00:12:16.629
pathfinder telescopes for the square


00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:19.829
kilometer array. So very important in in


00:12:19.839 --> 00:12:21.829
you know this this large scale project


00:12:21.839 --> 00:12:24.470
that is currently uh under construction


00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:27.269
or uh soon will be under construction.


00:12:27.279 --> 00:12:30.069
Um that's getting in the plug for SKA


00:12:30.079 --> 00:12:32.550
but the research itself as I said


00:12:32.560 --> 00:12:34.389
involves scientists from Germany,


00:12:34.399 --> 00:12:36.230
Australia, New Zealand and actually


00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:39.190
Denmark too. Um and what they've done is


00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:41.910
they've um looked at the way these


00:12:41.920 --> 00:12:44.310
pulsar signals have changed over the 20


00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:48.069
years and they find a change in the


00:12:48.079 --> 00:12:52.790
pulsar's orbit which amounts to


00:12:52.800 --> 00:12:55.910
150 kilometers. Uh and we're now talking


00:12:55.920 --> 00:12:57.509
about something that's 10,000 light


00:12:57.519 --> 00:12:59.910
years away. Andrews, being able to


00:12:59.920 --> 00:13:03.110
measure a change in orbit of 150


00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:05.590
kilometers uh at that distance is an


00:13:05.600 --> 00:13:08.230
astonishing accomplishment. But it turns


00:13:08.240 --> 00:13:10.949
out that that change is exactly what you


00:13:10.959 --> 00:13:14.150
would expect from frame dragging by the


00:13:14.160 --> 00:13:15.910
white dwarf itself. And that's the only


00:13:15.920 --> 00:13:18.150
thing that can account for it. So it is


00:13:18.160 --> 00:13:20.389
the first time that we've demonstrated


00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:22.710
this swirling of space actually beyond


00:13:22.720 --> 00:13:24.230
the earth uh beyond the earth's


00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:26.629
vicinity. And it's an important um you


00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:28.550
know a really important result which is


00:13:28.560 --> 00:13:30.790
rightly being celebrated all over the


00:13:30.800 --> 00:13:33.269
science media. Um astronomers detect


00:13:33.279 --> 00:13:35.269
distant space-time dragging for the


00:13:35.279 --> 00:13:36.230
first time.


00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:39.269
>> So the the I guess the the point of this


00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:42.710
is the massive um or the mass of this


00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:44.629
this event rather than you know you were


00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:46.550
talking about how earth does it but


00:13:46.560 --> 00:13:48.470
we're talking about something on a much


00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:49.990
larger scale.


00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:51.910
>> That's right. Yes. Well, the white dwarf


00:13:51.920 --> 00:13:53.670
itself, whilst it's probably not much


00:13:53.680 --> 00:13:55.430
bigger than the earth, it's it's its


00:13:55.440 --> 00:13:56.629
mass is much larger.


00:13:56.639 --> 00:13:57.189
>> Yeah.


00:13:57.199 --> 00:13:59.670
>> Uh and yeah, you're talking about um you


00:13:59.680 --> 00:14:00.870
know, you are talking about something


00:14:00.880 --> 00:14:03.670
happening on a on a larger scale. Um I


00:14:03.680 --> 00:14:06.870
confess that um I am not an expert on


00:14:06.880 --> 00:14:09.750
the lens searing effect. Uh but it is


00:14:09.760 --> 00:14:12.230
very interesting stuff. Uh, and when you


00:14:12.240 --> 00:14:14.310
read up about it, it's quite inspiring


00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:16.389
that, you know, all those years ago,


00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:18.790
these guys worked out that spaceime is


00:14:18.800 --> 00:14:20.710
being dragged around by the Earth.


00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:22.949
>> And if you like me and you don't want to


00:14:22.959 --> 00:14:24.389
read anything about it, there's a


00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:27.509
fabulous animation on the skat


00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:31.509
telescope.org website where you can see


00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:33.269
um, in about 1 minute and 20 seconds


00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:35.110
what they've learned over 20 years. It


00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:37.670
shows you how the uh, effect works. It's


00:14:37.680 --> 00:14:40.470
very, very good. I might give a I might


00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:42.389
give a call out to the the person who


00:14:42.399 --> 00:14:44.310
put that uh animation together, Mark


00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:47.110
Meyers, who's at Swinburn University, uh


00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:48.310
because I was in touch with him


00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:50.790
yesterday. I'm using one of his um


00:14:50.800 --> 00:14:52.710
graphics in a newsletter that I prepare


00:14:52.720 --> 00:14:55.110
and I asked him if that was all right.


00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:58.230
He said uh he was delighted to let us


00:14:58.240 --> 00:15:01.350
use it. And uh I I absolutely agree with


00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:03.670
you, Andrew. His animation, which is on


00:15:03.680 --> 00:15:06.069
that website, the skaters.org website,


00:15:06.079 --> 00:15:06.870
is terrific.


00:15:06.880 --> 00:15:09.189
>> Yes, indeed. All right, you're listening


00:15:09.199 --> 00:15:11.829
to the Space Nuts podcast. Andrew Dunley


00:15:11.839 --> 00:15:16.069
here with Fred Watson.


00:15:16.079 --> 00:15:17.910
>> Roger, you're here also.


00:15:17.920 --> 00:15:19.110
>> Space Nuts.


00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:21.829
>> Now, Fred, uh just another shout out to


00:15:21.839 --> 00:15:24.550
our patrons who support our podcast with


00:15:24.560 --> 00:15:27.350
dollars and cents. We uh thank you again


00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:28.790
for doing that. If you would like to


00:15:28.800 --> 00:15:30.949
become a patron or just look into the


00:15:30.959 --> 00:15:32.870
possibility, uh you can go to our


00:15:32.880 --> 00:15:35.990
Patreon website, patreon.com/spacenuts.


00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:37.509
All the information is there. If you


00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:39.509
would like to contribute to the program,


00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:43.110
you can set your own limit. Uh but it's


00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:45.110
not mandatory. We're not asking you to


00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:47.670
do it um as as a condition of listening


00:15:47.680 --> 00:15:49.749
to the podcast. If you want to go on


00:15:49.759 --> 00:15:52.389
listening to it uh as you are, that is


00:15:52.399 --> 00:15:54.069
fine, too. But uh anybody who


00:15:54.079 --> 00:15:56.150
contributes uh does get the benefit of


00:15:56.160 --> 00:15:59.030
bonus content on the Patreon website. Uh


00:15:59.040 --> 00:16:01.110
they also get the commercial free


00:16:01.120 --> 00:16:04.790
edition of the podcast uh ahead of time.


00:16:04.800 --> 00:16:08.150
So um something to consider. Anyway, um


00:16:08.160 --> 00:16:11.430
now, oh, by the way, Fred, um my uh new


00:16:11.440 --> 00:16:13.269
book,


00:16:13.279 --> 00:16:16.069
um shameless plug coming up, uh is now


00:16:16.079 --> 00:16:19.910
available for pre-order as an ebook.


00:16:19.920 --> 00:16:22.230
>> So, um have a look for that on the


00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:25.269
Amazon website. So, um that's that's


00:16:25.279 --> 00:16:26.949
pretty exciting. I


00:16:26.959 --> 00:16:28.710
>> very very pleased with how it's all


00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:30.710
turned out. Uh someone actually messaged


00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:31.990
me the other day and said, "I've ordered


00:16:32.000 --> 00:16:34.949
it. Better be good."


00:16:34.959 --> 00:16:36.389
Uh, you've got to remind us of the


00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:37.110
title, Andrew.


00:16:37.120 --> 00:16:39.990
>> It's called uh the Tyrannian Enigma. The


00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:42.389
Tyrannian Enigma. I'm starting First


00:16:42.399 --> 00:16:44.790
time I wrote that down and read it out.


00:16:44.800 --> 00:16:46.150
My tongue tripped over it and I thought,


00:16:46.160 --> 00:16:48.710
"No, this is this is too hard." But I'm


00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:50.389
getting used to it now.


00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:50.949
>> Very good.


00:16:50.959 --> 00:16:52.710
>> I've developed a couple of signapses in


00:16:52.720 --> 00:16:54.389
my brain that have got my mouth around


00:16:54.399 --> 00:16:56.949
the Tyrann in No, no, I tripped over it.


00:16:56.959 --> 00:16:59.269
But, um, yeah, have a look for it. Uh


00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:02.069
the official release date of the ebook


00:17:02.079 --> 00:17:06.949
and the paperback will be April 15


00:17:06.959 --> 00:17:10.630
and um yeah a few people have asked if I


00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:12.150
could turn it into an audio book as


00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:14.870
well. So I'll look into that. I I it's


00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:16.630
just so time consuming to create an


00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:18.230
audio book.


00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:19.990
>> Not so much the the reading and


00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:22.069
recording of but the editing. Oh my


00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:24.870
gosh, that's a nightmare. Uh having


00:17:24.880 --> 00:17:28.230
>> Well, you did that for um as mud. Yeah.


00:17:28.240 --> 00:17:28.950
>> Yeah. Yeah.


00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:30.549
>> Which was a World War I story about my


00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:33.190
grandfather in the Great War. But that


00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:36.230
that started as an audio book. So that


00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:39.190
was I sort of flipped the egg on that. I


00:17:39.200 --> 00:17:40.950
did the audio book and then wrote uh


00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:43.669
then made the paperback. But these last


00:17:43.679 --> 00:17:45.270
two I've done the other way round or


00:17:45.280 --> 00:17:47.029
haven't done the other way around. But


00:17:47.039 --> 00:17:48.950
um I'll I'll look into it. I'll just


00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:52.390
it's got to be feasible and that that


00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:55.110
sort of becomes the question. But um


00:17:55.120 --> 00:17:57.350
we'll see how the demand goes. But yeah,


00:17:57.360 --> 00:17:59.430
have a look for it. Um Hugh tells me


00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:01.270
he's going to put it on our um


00:18:01.280 --> 00:18:03.350
byes.com/spacenuts


00:18:03.360 --> 00:18:05.350
page, so you might be able to pre-order


00:18:05.360 --> 00:18:07.750
through there. I haven't checked. Uh


00:18:07.760 --> 00:18:09.430
now, let's get down to a couple of


00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:11.909
things involving students, Fred. These


00:18:11.919 --> 00:18:14.470
are um exciting stories. I particularly


00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:16.789
like this one, which involves the naming


00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:19.750
of the next Mars rover. Now, we've heard


00:18:19.760 --> 00:18:22.310
of Sojourer and Spirit and Opportunity


00:18:22.320 --> 00:18:24.150
and Curiosity.


00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:26.950
uh some of which have gone above and


00:18:26.960 --> 00:18:30.549
beyond the call of duty. Uh but um that


00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:32.230
they aren't the last rovers. There will


00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:34.470
be future rovers and u it looks like


00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:36.150
some students have got involved in the


00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:38.870
naming of the next one. Well, that's


00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:42.789
right. It was um uh uh you know I think


00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:45.029
this is what NASA does normally with its


00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:48.310
rovers. Uh it it puts out um a


00:18:48.320 --> 00:18:53.190
competition uh to uh actually to school


00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:57.430
students uh and says suggest names for


00:18:57.440 --> 00:18:59.510
our next rover. And of course the next


00:18:59.520 --> 00:19:02.230
rover is what's been called until now


00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:05.430
Mars 2020. Um it will be launched uh


00:19:05.440 --> 00:19:07.990
July or August this year. I think it's


00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:10.950
uh landing date on Mars is the 18th of


00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:14.630
February next year. So um just uh just


00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:16.310
under a year away


00:19:16.320 --> 00:19:19.830
>> um until now called Mars 2020. So during


00:19:19.840 --> 00:19:22.789
the closing months of last year, NA NASA


00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:26.150
put out the invitation uh to school


00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:28.470
students. I think it was uh school


00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:31.430
students of all ages from kindi to year


00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:35.909
12 uh and uh invited


00:19:35.919 --> 00:19:41.590
them to submit suggestions for the uh


00:19:41.600 --> 00:19:44.789
for the um uh name of the of the rover


00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:47.029
and they received


00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:50.150
uh two thou 28,000 submissions.


00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:51.990
>> I know that's amazing.


00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:54.870
>> It's not bad, is it? That was uh back in


00:19:54.880 --> 00:19:56.310
August at the end of August last year


00:19:56.320 --> 00:19:59.510
when they put the invitation out. And uh


00:19:59.520 --> 00:20:01.830
but fortunately uh it wasn't just one


00:20:01.840 --> 00:20:03.590
person who had to read all 28,000


00:20:03.600 --> 00:20:05.669
because these were essays uh saying why


00:20:05.679 --> 00:20:07.510
it should be a particular name. They had


00:20:07.520 --> 00:20:09.909
4,700 volunteer judges. They were


00:20:09.919 --> 00:20:13.110
educators uh professionals in the space


00:20:13.120 --> 00:20:15.350
field and space enthusiasts. And they


00:20:15.360 --> 00:20:19.029
eventually got down to 155


00:20:19.039 --> 00:20:21.190
semi-finalists and then nine finalists.


00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:23.029
And I think I can't remember but I think


00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:25.669
you and I talked about this last year.


00:20:25.679 --> 00:20:28.230
Yes. Because there was a list of uh of


00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:30.310
very elegant they were all great names


00:20:30.320 --> 00:20:32.789
actually for for a rover.


00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:35.990
>> Um so and then they put that out for


00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:38.070
public voting and in fact it was


00:20:38.080 --> 00:20:39.990
worldwide and there were many


00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:42.390
submissions came from Australia. They


00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:45.750
received a total of 770,000


00:20:45.760 --> 00:20:49.190
votes. Wow. uh to to to you know to chew


00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:51.830
through to work out what uh the final


00:20:51.840 --> 00:20:56.230
name should be and eventually uh they


00:20:56.240 --> 00:20:58.710
got one answer and it came


00:20:58.720 --> 00:21:00.549
>> Hang on. Drum roll.


00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:05.350
>> Drum roll. Uh it it came from uh a


00:21:05.360 --> 00:21:09.430
youngster by the name of Alex Mather uh


00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:11.190
who's at a school I've forgotten. I


00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:13.190
think he's in Virginia. I can check that


00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:16.070
in a minute. Uh but he and here's the


00:21:16.080 --> 00:21:17.909
drum roll. He was the person who


00:21:17.919 --> 00:21:21.590
suggested the name Perseverance


00:21:21.600 --> 00:21:22.470
name


00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:24.470
>> of the new spacecraft.


00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:26.710
>> Yeah. Yeah. That is a fabulous name for


00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:29.669
it because it it does actually


00:21:29.679 --> 00:21:31.750
tell a story behind all the missions to


00:21:31.760 --> 00:21:33.350
Mars over the years and all the work


00:21:33.360 --> 00:21:34.950
that's gone into it. They just, you


00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:37.590
know, all the successes and the failures


00:21:37.600 --> 00:21:40.070
and the and the near misses. It is


00:21:40.080 --> 00:21:42.789
perseverance that that going.


00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:44.630
>> That's right. Um I mean this this


00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:47.510
spacecraft as well could be uh it could


00:21:47.520 --> 00:21:49.750
be the one that discovers life on Mars.


00:21:49.760 --> 00:21:50.149
>> Yes.


00:21:50.159 --> 00:21:52.870
>> Uh because that's what it's you know


00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:55.350
what the aim is. It's um unlike


00:21:55.360 --> 00:21:57.270
Curiosity whose mission was to discover


00:21:57.280 --> 00:21:59.830
whether Mars was ever habitable which it


00:21:59.840 --> 00:22:01.590
did within about the first fortnite of


00:22:01.600 --> 00:22:04.470
its presence on the planet. Um uh


00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:06.950
Perseverance is looking for evidence of


00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:09.590
past or present life um with many


00:22:09.600 --> 00:22:12.070
different instruments that will uh will


00:22:12.080 --> 00:22:14.310
do that. Uh, and I I suspect


00:22:14.320 --> 00:22:16.870
Perseverance might be the characteristic


00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:18.549
that it needs more than anything else.


00:22:18.559 --> 00:22:20.149
It will probably be quite a long


00:22:20.159 --> 00:22:22.149
mission. Uh, it's unlikely that, you


00:22:22.159 --> 00:22:23.669
know, as soon as it drops down, it's


00:22:23.679 --> 00:22:26.310
going to find evidence of


00:22:26.320 --> 00:22:28.470
Martian microbes. One would expect that


00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:29.830
it might have to move around on the


00:22:29.840 --> 00:22:31.590
surface a bit, but it will do that.


00:22:31.600 --> 00:22:33.510
>> Yeah,


00:22:33.520 --> 00:22:36.549
only slightly pipped uh the number two,


00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:40.710
which was, do I have to go to Mars?


00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:42.070
Yeah,


00:22:42.080 --> 00:22:44.950
>> that's the one. Yeah. Um, I'm fascinated


00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:47.510
by the fact that uh they got 28,000


00:22:47.520 --> 00:22:49.270
submissions for the name. It reminds me


00:22:49.280 --> 00:22:51.110
of an author, a children's author in Sri


00:22:51.120 --> 00:22:53.029
Lanka last week who got 20,000


00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:55.110
submissions for the ending of her latest


00:22:55.120 --> 00:22:55.750
book.


00:22:55.760 --> 00:22:56.470
>> Okay.


00:22:56.480 --> 00:22:58.549
>> And they came out and and they published


00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:00.870
they're going to publish it with 1,250


00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:04.149
endings, which is a which is a Guinness


00:23:04.159 --> 00:23:06.390
World Record. And I I think those sorts


00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:08.470
of responses really show where you stand


00:23:08.480 --> 00:23:10.549
in the world. So when I asked for a


00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:12.390
title for my book, I got five.


00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:14.230
>> Yeah, you did. I think that's pretty


00:23:14.240 --> 00:23:15.909
good.


00:23:15.919 --> 00:23:17.350
>> More than more than the number of people


00:23:17.360 --> 00:23:21.110
who read my book. Um that um that the


00:23:21.120 --> 00:23:23.029
bottom line here is congratulations to


00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:27.750
young Al Alexander Ma. Um he is uh a


00:23:27.760 --> 00:23:30.310
year sorry a grade seven student. Now I


00:23:30.320 --> 00:23:32.470
I'm guessing that that means he's about


00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:33.669
13. Yeah.


00:23:33.679 --> 00:23:37.750
>> Uh or thereabouts. Um and he's uh he put


00:23:37.760 --> 00:23:41.990
in put together a really uh remarkable


00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:44.390
um you know remarkable


00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:50.310
uh uh entry. Um he said some very very


00:23:50.320 --> 00:23:53.270
uh very nice comments about the the


00:23:53.280 --> 00:23:57.510
competition and his his uh his um entry


00:23:57.520 --> 00:24:00.470
to it. He says um this is actually in


00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:01.909
the NASA press release. He says, "This


00:24:01.919 --> 00:24:03.909
was a chance to help the agency that put


00:24:03.919 --> 00:24:05.669
humans on the moon and will soon do it


00:24:05.679 --> 00:24:07.990
again. This Mars rover will help pave


00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:10.230
the way for human presence there, and I


00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:12.230
wanted to try and help in any way I


00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:14.710
could. Refusal of the challenge was not


00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:16.149
an option."


00:24:16.159 --> 00:24:17.830
>> Lovely. That is great.


00:24:17.840 --> 00:24:18.710
>> Great stuff, isn't it?


00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:21.590
>> Good on him. Okay, so watch out for


00:24:21.600 --> 00:24:23.110
perseverance


00:24:23.120 --> 00:24:25.669
uh which should hit the Martian surface


00:24:25.679 --> 00:24:28.870
uh in a little under a year. Uh still on


00:24:28.880 --> 00:24:31.269
students doing great things. Uh this is


00:24:31.279 --> 00:24:32.950
this is a fabulous story about a


00:24:32.960 --> 00:24:35.350
17-year-old who's doing an internship at


00:24:35.360 --> 00:24:39.269
NASA and has found a planet on day


00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:40.070
three.


00:24:40.080 --> 00:24:42.390
>> Day three. That's right.


00:24:42.400 --> 00:24:45.590
>> It is. It's great stuff. Um so, uh this


00:24:45.600 --> 00:24:48.630
is a young man called uh Wolf Cookier. I


00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:50.630
hope I'm pronouncing his name correctly.


00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:54.070
Uh he scored a two-month internship with


00:24:54.080 --> 00:24:56.870
NASA. Uh so during last northern summer


00:24:56.880 --> 00:24:58.710
he was at the Godard Space Flight Center


00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:01.909
in Green Belt in Maryland and um what


00:25:01.919 --> 00:25:04.630
what he was doing uh on day three I


00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:06.630
think he probably started off doing this


00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:09.990
he was trolling through data from TESS


00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:13.510
uh so TESS is a NASA spacecraft is


00:25:13.520 --> 00:25:15.909
currently operational doing a great job


00:25:15.919 --> 00:25:18.789
the name is an acronym for transiting


00:25:18.799 --> 00:25:21.350
exoplanet survey satellite so it's


00:25:21.360 --> 00:25:24.149
actually looking for the dimming of the


00:25:24.159 --> 00:25:26.789
light of of stars as planets pass in


00:25:26.799 --> 00:25:29.269
front of them. Uh and unlike Kepler


00:25:29.279 --> 00:25:32.789
which only looked at a small uh area of


00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:36.149
the sky to do the same job, um Kepler


00:25:36.159 --> 00:25:39.190
now now effectively defunct. Uh TESS


00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:41.590
actually looks at the whole sky. Uh so


00:25:41.600 --> 00:25:44.710
it's a it's a the word survey in its


00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:46.070
name is very important because it


00:25:46.080 --> 00:25:47.750
actually has a chance to look at the


00:25:47.760 --> 00:25:51.350
entire sky. So he was looking through


00:25:51.360 --> 00:25:53.190
the data. Actually, there's a a nice


00:25:53.200 --> 00:25:56.230
quote again from um from Wolf. He says,


00:25:56.240 --> 00:25:58.070
"I was looking through the data for


00:25:58.080 --> 00:25:59.830
everything the volunteers had flagged as


00:25:59.840 --> 00:26:03.269
an eclipsing binary. That means uh two


00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:05.029
stars orbiting around their common


00:26:05.039 --> 00:26:07.590
center of mass, one passes in front of


00:26:07.600 --> 00:26:09.430
the other as seen from the Earth. And


00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:11.750
so, you get what we call an eclipse.


00:26:11.760 --> 00:26:13.590
>> So, they're well-known stars. They've


00:26:13.600 --> 00:26:16.230
been well known for for a more than a


00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:18.630
century. He was looking uh through


00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:20.710
everything volunteers had flagged as an


00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:22.630
eclipsing binary, a system where two


00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:24.710
stars circle around each other and from


00:26:24.720 --> 00:26:27.510
our view eclipse each other every orbit.


00:26:27.520 --> 00:26:30.310
About 3 days into my internship, I saw a


00:26:30.320 --> 00:26:34.549
signal from a system called TOI 1338. At


00:26:34.559 --> 00:26:36.070
first, I thought it was a stellar


00:26:36.080 --> 00:26:39.510
eclipse, but the timing was wrong. It


00:26:39.520 --> 00:26:41.990
turned out to be a planet. uh I noticed


00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:44.870
a dip or a transit from the TOI 1338


00:26:44.880 --> 00:26:46.549
system and that was the first signal of


00:26:46.559 --> 00:26:48.549
the planet. First saw the initial dip


00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:51.110
and thought oh that looked cool but when


00:26:51.120 --> 00:26:52.870
I then when I looked at the full data


00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:55.510
from the telescope at that star I and my


00:26:55.520 --> 00:26:57.750
mentor also noticed three different dips


00:26:57.760 --> 00:26:59.990
in the system. So great stuff and very


00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:01.830
well very well spotted


00:27:01.840 --> 00:27:03.990
>> and it's a big one too in


00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:05.029
>> Yeah, that's right.


00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:05.909
>> planets I suppose


00:27:05.919 --> 00:27:08.710
>> it's it's between the um you know it's


00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:10.710
somewhere between the size of Neptune


00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:15.430
and Saturn uh rather larger than Uranus


00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:17.830
about seven times larger than the Earth.


00:27:17.840 --> 00:27:19.669
It's in the constellation of Pictor and


00:27:19.679 --> 00:27:23.430
it's about 1300 light years away. Um the


00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:25.350
>> Is it a gas giant or a rocky planet?


00:27:25.360 --> 00:27:27.430
>> Probably. Probably a gas giant.


00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:32.390
>> Yeah. the the the name uh TOI


00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:37.110
1338. TOUI is an acronym for TESS object


00:27:37.120 --> 00:27:40.549
of interest. Uh and uh it's um it's one


00:27:40.559 --> 00:27:42.310
that's floating around a lot these days


00:27:42.320 --> 00:27:44.870
with the with a number attached to it.


00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:46.950
So of course um because of the


00:27:46.960 --> 00:27:50.470
convention uh that planet that Wolf has


00:27:50.480 --> 00:27:53.669
discovered is now called TOI 1338b


00:27:53.679 --> 00:27:56.149
because the B signifies it is the first


00:27:56.159 --> 00:27:58.710
discovered planet around the star.


00:27:58.720 --> 00:28:00.389
>> Excellent. All right.


00:28:00.399 --> 00:28:01.029
>> Great stuff.


00:28:01.039 --> 00:28:02.950
>> Yeah, good good stuff with involving


00:28:02.960 --> 00:28:05.590
students um doing wonderful things.


00:28:05.600 --> 00:28:07.590
You're listening to Space Nuts with


00:28:07.600 --> 00:28:12.710
Andrew Dunley and Professor Fred Watson.


00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:14.230
G and I feel fine.


00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:15.350
>> Space nuts.


00:28:15.360 --> 00:28:17.669
>> And a big hello to all our social media


00:28:17.679 --> 00:28:20.789
followers that um contribute via our


00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:22.310
Facebook page. If you're not following


00:28:22.320 --> 00:28:24.389
us on Facebook, uh maybe have a look if


00:28:24.399 --> 00:28:26.549
you're a Facebook user, of course. Uh


00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:29.029
you can also join the Space Nuts podcast


00:28:29.039 --> 00:28:30.710
group on Facebook. That's a chance for


00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:32.870
you to talk to each other and help each


00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:34.470
other out with astronomy questions. And


00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:36.310
it's going gang busters. people are


00:28:36.320 --> 00:28:39.350
really uh enjoying finding each other


00:28:39.360 --> 00:28:42.070
and um that you know the similarity and


00:28:42.080 --> 00:28:44.710
interest is is rather fascinating. So uh


00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:46.310
I occasionally poke my head in there,


00:28:46.320 --> 00:28:48.070
but it's it's actually for you the Space


00:28:48.080 --> 00:28:50.149
Nuts podcast group. So uh you might want


00:28:50.159 --> 00:28:52.230
to take advantage of that. Uh and of


00:28:52.240 --> 00:28:54.149
course YouTube uh the numbers continue


00:28:54.159 --> 00:28:55.830
to grow. So if you'd like to subscribe


00:28:55.840 --> 00:28:59.430
to the Space Nuts YouTube channel, you


00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:03.110
can do that, too. Now, uh Fred, we have


00:29:03.120 --> 00:29:04.630
a couple of questions. I didn't uh


00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:06.549
preview these because I forgot. But uh


00:29:06.559 --> 00:29:08.310
we we are going to tackle a couple of


00:29:08.320 --> 00:29:09.830
questions and then we're going to do um


00:29:09.840 --> 00:29:11.590
a little bit of homework or go back to


00:29:11.600 --> 00:29:12.789
something we talked about a couple of


00:29:12.799 --> 00:29:15.029
weeks ago just to finish it off which


00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:16.950
was the ro limit which which actually


00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:19.029
came about as a result of a question.


00:29:19.039 --> 00:29:20.870
But our first question today comes from


00:29:20.880 --> 00:29:22.789
Andrew Mitchell. I think Andrew's been


00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:24.470
in touch with us before. Dear Fred and


00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:26.389
Andrew, all this recent talk about black


00:29:26.399 --> 00:29:29.190
holes has been fascinating and the last


00:29:29.200 --> 00:29:31.190
installment got me thinking. According


00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:33.590
to Einstein's equations, black holes are


00:29:33.600 --> 00:29:36.630
supposed to have uh infin uh supposed to


00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:39.350
be infinitely small, infinitely dense


00:29:39.360 --> 00:29:41.909
singularities at their center. If that's


00:29:41.919 --> 00:29:44.870
the case, then how do uh two actually


00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:46.710
merge into one black hole? Shouldn't


00:29:46.720 --> 00:29:48.310
they just keep orbiting each other


00:29:48.320 --> 00:29:50.870
getting closer forever? Or is the fact


00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:52.630
that black holes do merge actually


00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:55.110
evidence that singularities have size?


00:29:55.120 --> 00:29:57.990
Perhaps a sphere with a diameter of one


00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:00.950
plank length. Uh, your regular plugs on


00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:03.269
YouTube channel have been paying off. I


00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:05.830
just became subscriber number 993, so it


00:30:05.840 --> 00:30:07.350
would, you know, we're a bit overdue


00:30:07.360 --> 00:30:08.549
getting your question done. Andrew,


00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:09.669
thanks for joining us on YouTube,


00:30:09.679 --> 00:30:11.909
though. Still loving the show. Um,


00:30:11.919 --> 00:30:14.789
please keep up the mind-blowing stories.


00:30:14.799 --> 00:30:17.190
Thank you, Andrew. Um, black holes. Gee,


00:30:17.200 --> 00:30:20.789
we don't talk about them very often. Um


00:30:20.799 --> 00:30:22.470
but yeah, it's an interesting question


00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:25.029
because we talk about how the the black


00:30:25.039 --> 00:30:28.070
hole itself is quite small when you


00:30:28.080 --> 00:30:30.389
compare it to the event horizon or the


00:30:30.399 --> 00:30:32.470
or the you know what's going on around


00:30:32.480 --> 00:30:35.750
it. Um but yeah,


00:30:35.760 --> 00:30:37.750
two merging black holes, do they


00:30:37.760 --> 00:30:42.710
actually merge and how is it? So


00:30:42.720 --> 00:30:46.710
it's a really good question. Um, it's


00:30:46.720 --> 00:30:48.630
uh,


00:30:48.640 --> 00:30:52.389
you know, the the the whole black hole


00:30:52.399 --> 00:30:54.389
thing is hard to get your head around.


00:30:54.399 --> 00:30:54.950
>> Yeah.


00:30:54.960 --> 00:30:56.389
>> Whether you're a physicist or an


00:30:56.399 --> 00:30:59.430
astronomer or somebody fighting over


00:30:59.440 --> 00:31:01.830
toilet rolls in the in the aisle of the


00:31:01.840 --> 00:31:03.750
suit involves a black hole, too, doesn't


00:31:03.760 --> 00:31:03.990
it?


00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:05.909
>> I'm sure it does. Yeah. There there they


00:31:05.919 --> 00:31:08.310
are very very hard uh objects to


00:31:08.320 --> 00:31:11.029
understand. Uh, and Andrew's question is


00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:15.269
is really well made. Um, how do two


00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:19.430
black holes merge into one? Um, I I


00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:24.549
don't think there is any need for them


00:31:24.559 --> 00:31:27.750
to keep orbiting around each other if


00:31:27.760 --> 00:31:30.710
they are of infinitely small size. But I


00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:32.149
do get his point that if you've got


00:31:32.159 --> 00:31:34.950
something that's infinitely small uh and


00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:36.549
you put something else that's infinitely


00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:38.389
small next to it, they're never going to


00:31:38.399 --> 00:31:40.470
they're never going to touch because


00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:42.630
they're uh because the dimensions are


00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:45.669
infinitely small. But in fact, as as


00:31:45.679 --> 00:31:47.909
Andrew says, they do merge. We have


00:31:47.919 --> 00:31:50.070
evidence of that uh from the


00:31:50.080 --> 00:31:52.310
gravitational wave observations that


00:31:52.320 --> 00:31:54.950
have been made um over the past two


00:31:54.960 --> 00:31:59.029
three years. Um and there is uh there is


00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:02.630
this phenomenon um called the ringdown


00:32:02.640 --> 00:32:05.350
which is the the sort of aftermath of


00:32:05.360 --> 00:32:06.950
the merging. Now I don't know enough


00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:09.830
about black hole physics to understand


00:32:09.840 --> 00:32:12.070
specifically what the mechanism of the


00:32:12.080 --> 00:32:14.710
ring down is but I suspect that is where


00:32:14.720 --> 00:32:17.590
the evidence comes that you actually


00:32:17.600 --> 00:32:20.310
have now merged black holes. In fact, we


00:32:20.320 --> 00:32:23.110
know we know the evidence is there um


00:32:23.120 --> 00:32:25.669
because you wind up with a black hole


00:32:25.679 --> 00:32:29.190
whose mass is actually usually slightly


00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:30.710
less than the sum of the masses of the


00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:32.950
two black holes that have merged and the


00:32:32.960 --> 00:32:35.029
and the excess has gone into creating


00:32:35.039 --> 00:32:37.430
the gravitational waves. It's mass into


00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:41.190
energy. Uh but um Andrew goes on to make


00:32:41.200 --> 00:32:43.830
an interesting point. He says, "Or do


00:32:43.840 --> 00:32:46.230
the sing or is the fact that black holes


00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:47.990
do merge actually evidence that


00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:50.310
singularities have a size? Perhaps a


00:32:50.320 --> 00:32:52.870
sphere with a diameter of one plank


00:32:52.880 --> 00:32:54.230
length."


00:32:54.240 --> 00:32:57.350
>> Now, um, introducing the plank length is


00:32:57.360 --> 00:33:00.549
a really neat way of sidest stepping the


00:33:00.559 --> 00:33:03.269
idea of an infinite decimately small


00:33:03.279 --> 00:33:06.149
object because the the plank length is


00:33:06.159 --> 00:33:10.549
defined as being the smallest distance


00:33:10.559 --> 00:33:13.029
and it is got a It does have a proper


00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:14.950
physical definition. In fact, it's


00:33:14.960 --> 00:33:17.269
actually the distance that light travels


00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:20.549
in one unit of plank time. Uh so that


00:33:20.559 --> 00:33:22.149
raises the question, well, what's plank


00:33:22.159 --> 00:33:25.750
time? Um let me just summarize though,


00:33:25.760 --> 00:33:27.190
and this is coming directly off


00:33:27.200 --> 00:33:29.509
Wikipedia. The plank length can be


00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:32.630
defined uh sorry uh from yeah, let me


00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:34.310
read it. The plank length can be defined


00:33:34.320 --> 00:33:35.669
from three fundamental physical


00:33:35.679 --> 00:33:37.110
constants. the speed of light in a


00:33:37.120 --> 00:33:39.029
vacuum, the plank constant, that's


00:33:39.039 --> 00:33:41.350
something um which physicists are very


00:33:41.360 --> 00:33:43.350
familiar with, and the gravitational


00:33:43.360 --> 00:33:46.070
constant. It's the smallest distance


00:33:46.080 --> 00:33:49.430
about which current experimentally


00:33:49.440 --> 00:33:52.630
corroborated models of physics can make


00:33:52.640 --> 00:33:56.070
meaningful statements. So what it says


00:33:56.080 --> 00:33:58.070
is and I'll go on at such small


00:33:58.080 --> 00:34:00.549
distances the conventional laws of macro


00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:03.350
physics no longer apply and even


00:34:03.360 --> 00:34:05.350
relativistic physics require special


00:34:05.360 --> 00:34:07.509
treatment and the bottom line is that a


00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:09.669
plank length below that all bets are


00:34:09.679 --> 00:34:10.389
off. Okay,


00:34:10.399 --> 00:34:12.470
>> we really don't understand what is


00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:14.389
happening to the physics and maybe


00:34:14.399 --> 00:34:16.950
Andrew's point is well made that uh you


00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:20.310
know a plank length black hole is


00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:23.510
actually what you have at the center of


00:34:23.520 --> 00:34:26.629
or constituting a black hole system. Um


00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:29.510
I need to talk to my uh expert friends


00:34:29.520 --> 00:34:32.629
about this because um at this level of


00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:35.909
technicality uh my knowledge is not


00:34:35.919 --> 00:34:38.550
specialist but I do know people whose


00:34:38.560 --> 00:34:41.190
knowledge is far better than mine and


00:34:41.200 --> 00:34:43.909
next time I run into them uh I'm going


00:34:43.919 --> 00:34:45.750
to ask them exactly about these


00:34:45.760 --> 00:34:47.829
questions and hopefully feedback to


00:34:47.839 --> 00:34:50.710
Space Nuts and to Andrew and his fellow


00:34:50.720 --> 00:34:51.430
listeners.


00:34:51.440 --> 00:34:53.750
>> Okay. So the question remains open,


00:34:53.760 --> 00:34:54.950
Andrew, but


00:34:54.960 --> 00:34:56.710
>> yeah, I think we'll give you a definite


00:34:56.720 --> 00:34:58.069
maybe.


00:34:58.079 --> 00:34:59.109
>> Maybe.


00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:00.950
>> Yes. All right. Thanks, Andrew. Thanks


00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:02.230
for the question. Let's move on to a


00:35:02.240 --> 00:35:04.710
question from Alf Peterson in Sweden.


00:35:04.720 --> 00:35:07.349
Yeah. Uh Alf, I've got some news from


00:35:07.359 --> 00:35:08.950
you which you may or may not be aware


00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:11.270
of, but uh a young lady named Julia


00:35:11.280 --> 00:35:13.670
Angstrom, a professional golfer from


00:35:13.680 --> 00:35:17.030
Sweden, just won the New South Wales


00:35:17.040 --> 00:35:19.510
Women's Open, which we hosted here in DO


00:35:19.520 --> 00:35:20.790
a couple of weeks ago.


00:35:20.800 --> 00:35:23.349
>> Great. I because our course was closed


00:35:23.359 --> 00:35:25.829
to play for members, we um we uh we we


00:35:25.839 --> 00:35:27.109
got to go out there and watch these


00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:28.470
young ladies go around. It was a


00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:31.829
European tour event. Uh she won not only


00:35:31.839 --> 00:35:33.349
her share of the prize money, but a


00:35:33.359 --> 00:35:35.190
2-year exemption on the European tour.


00:35:35.200 --> 00:35:38.390
She's 18 years old and she swings it


00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:40.550
like a champion. I mean, she was hitting


00:35:40.560 --> 00:35:44.390
at 260 to 280 m, whailing it past me,


00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:47.270
and she's just a slip of a kid, but uh


00:35:47.280 --> 00:35:49.109
remarkable player and someone to watch


00:35:49.119 --> 00:35:50.390
out for in the future if you're a


00:35:50.400 --> 00:35:52.550
golfer. Julia Angstrom is her name. So,


00:35:52.560 --> 00:35:54.870
there you go, Al. A little bit of I can


00:35:54.880 --> 00:35:58.390
feel his pride swelling now. Um, now he


00:35:58.400 --> 00:36:00.630
says, "Hello, Andrew and Fred. What a


00:36:00.640 --> 00:36:02.470
fantastic community you've started, and


00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:04.069
it's a global one, too. I've been a


00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:06.069
faithful listener of your pods now for a


00:36:06.079 --> 00:36:07.670
year and enjoy them very much. Never


00:36:07.680 --> 00:36:09.270
imagined Thursdays could be that


00:36:09.280 --> 00:36:11.430
exciting. I'd usually say something


00:36:11.440 --> 00:36:13.589
derogatory, but I'm feeling good today.


00:36:13.599 --> 00:36:16.230
Uh, don't know if this question might be


00:36:16.240 --> 00:36:18.390
of interest to the show. Is there any


00:36:18.400 --> 00:36:19.829
chance that a It's a black hole


00:36:19.839 --> 00:36:21.510
question, by the way, Fred. Is there any


00:36:21.520 --> 00:36:23.750
chance that a black hole might not exist


00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:26.470
in its uh inside its event horizon?


00:36:26.480 --> 00:36:28.069
After all, black holes are claimed to be


00:36:28.079 --> 00:36:30.790
singularities, i.e. infantessimal in


00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:33.270
size. In practical terms, nothing,


00:36:33.280 --> 00:36:36.390
right? Uh, if so, could an event horizon


00:36:36.400 --> 00:36:38.710
act as a sort of a delayed postal


00:36:38.720 --> 00:36:41.829
service, never informing anyone outside


00:36:41.839 --> 00:36:44.230
what has happened? Like Australia Post,


00:36:44.240 --> 00:36:47.030
really? Um, no, they're great. Actually,


00:36:47.040 --> 00:36:49.190
uh, there's another piece of news. Do


00:36:49.200 --> 00:36:52.790
Post Office here in town got Post Office


00:36:52.800 --> 00:36:53.910
of the Year.


00:36:53.920 --> 00:36:55.670
>> Oh, fabulous. That's great news.


00:36:55.680 --> 00:36:57.990
>> About a month ago, so we're doing all


00:36:58.000 --> 00:36:58.950
right here, aren't we?


00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:00.470
>> Yeah, you're doing well in double.


00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:02.870
>> Back to questions. Would physics allow


00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:05.430
matter still to be pulled into the vent


00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:08.150
event uh into the horizon even if the


00:37:08.160 --> 00:37:10.710
black hole was gone?


00:37:10.720 --> 00:37:14.790
Uh great question, Ol. And um in in a


00:37:14.800 --> 00:37:17.430
sense the um the he's right about the


00:37:17.440 --> 00:37:20.150
event horizon acting as a delayed postal


00:37:20.160 --> 00:37:22.870
service because


00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:25.109
um it it it stops the transfer of


00:37:25.119 --> 00:37:27.430
information. We do know that uh black


00:37:27.440 --> 00:37:29.750
holes can evaporate courtesy of of


00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:33.349
Hawking radiation but uh basically and


00:37:33.359 --> 00:37:35.430
and that involves the transfer of


00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:36.950
information. We know that but it's very


00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:40.310
very slow. So the the the event horizon


00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:42.790
does shield the black hole from the


00:37:42.800 --> 00:37:45.109
outside world if I can put it that way.


00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:48.069
But um in terms of whether the black


00:37:48.079 --> 00:37:50.870
hole itself exists, it it's kind of the


00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:53.030
other way around. The only way the event


00:37:53.040 --> 00:37:55.109
horizon can exist is is if there is a


00:37:55.119 --> 00:37:58.390
black hole at the center. Uh in other


00:37:58.400 --> 00:38:00.390
words, this infinite decimally small


00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:01.910
singularity


00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:04.390
essentially distorting spaceime to the


00:38:04.400 --> 00:38:06.150
extent that you've got this shield


00:38:06.160 --> 00:38:07.910
around it. This black hole the black


00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:10.710
hole uh sorry the the black hole event


00:38:10.720 --> 00:38:13.109
horizon. The event horizon in some ways


00:38:13.119 --> 00:38:15.990
is an illusion, Andrew, because it's um


00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:18.230
it's just the point of no return. It's


00:38:18.240 --> 00:38:20.390
the the thing that won't let light out.


00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:22.150
And it certainly is black. We've seen


00:38:22.160 --> 00:38:25.349
that from the the event horizon image uh


00:38:25.359 --> 00:38:28.150
that was released last year. But uh


00:38:28.160 --> 00:38:29.910
without the black hole, the event


00:38:29.920 --> 00:38:33.430
horizon doesn't exist. So uh it it has


00:38:33.440 --> 00:38:35.670
to there has to be this singularity at


00:38:35.680 --> 00:38:38.870
the middle with all its complicated uh


00:38:38.880 --> 00:38:41.109
infiniteesimally small planklength


00:38:41.119 --> 00:38:42.950
dimensions that we've just been discover


00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:45.670
discussing. Um yeah, great question


00:38:45.680 --> 00:38:47.510
though and thank you very much. And yes,


00:38:47.520 --> 00:38:49.270
Sweden rocks. I was there not very long


00:38:49.280 --> 00:38:49.750
ago.


00:38:49.760 --> 00:38:51.510
>> And as Montipython says, nothing can


00:38:51.520 --> 00:38:53.910
come from nothing.


00:38:53.920 --> 00:38:55.910
>> Can't be nothing.


00:38:55.920 --> 00:38:57.190
>> Yes. Yes.


00:38:57.200 --> 00:38:59.349
>> Thanks, Al. Appreciate the question. Uh,


00:38:59.359 --> 00:39:01.190
one more thing before we finish up,


00:39:01.200 --> 00:39:03.589
Fred, and this is um a little bit of um


00:39:03.599 --> 00:39:05.670
an add-on from a question about the Ro


00:39:05.680 --> 00:39:07.109
limit. A couple of weeks ago, we were


00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:08.390
trying to figure out


00:39:08.400 --> 00:39:11.349
>> the Ro limit between the Earth and the


00:39:11.359 --> 00:39:13.349
Moon. And as you explained, the ro limit


00:39:13.359 --> 00:39:15.990
is the point where uh gravity will


00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:19.109
destroy one of the objects involved in


00:39:19.119 --> 00:39:23.109
the um uh in the uh situation. So um you


00:39:23.119 --> 00:39:24.470
could probably explain it better than I


00:39:24.480 --> 00:39:27.589
just did, but um uh basically we were


00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:29.589
trying to figure out how close the moon


00:39:29.599 --> 00:39:31.030
could get to the earth before it was


00:39:31.040 --> 00:39:32.230
obliterated.


00:39:32.240 --> 00:39:33.910
>> Yeah. And you know, life on Earth would


00:39:33.920 --> 00:39:35.430
probably be obliterated, too.


00:39:35.440 --> 00:39:37.190
>> Well, that's right. It would be a tricky


00:39:37.200 --> 00:39:39.430
situation for all of us, but it is. It's


00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:41.510
much less than I thought it would be,


00:39:41.520 --> 00:39:43.990
Andrew. It's um the ro limit for the


00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:46.390
moon is 9,492


00:39:46.400 --> 00:39:48.790
km, and I think that's from the center


00:39:48.800 --> 00:39:51.750
of the Earth. So, it's actually 3,14


00:39:51.760 --> 00:39:54.470
uh 1114 kilometers above the surface.


00:39:54.480 --> 00:39:56.870
Imagine the moon 3,000 km above the


00:39:56.880 --> 00:39:57.829
surface. Whoa.


00:39:57.839 --> 00:39:59.190
>> Wouldn't it look amazing?


00:39:59.200 --> 00:40:00.630
>> It would look pretty amazing. That's


00:40:00.640 --> 00:40:00.950
right.


00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:03.109
>> Just for a few moments until we all die


00:40:03.119 --> 00:40:06.310
far away. Die. Yes, that's right.


00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:06.630
>> Yeah.


00:40:06.640 --> 00:40:08.069
>> But that's okay. But we'd have plenty of


00:40:08.079 --> 00:40:09.190
toilet paper.


00:40:09.200 --> 00:40:10.790
>> No, we would. We'd be all right.


00:40:10.800 --> 00:40:15.190
>> Yes. So, three So, 9,000


00:40:15.200 --> 00:40:17.349
>> Yeah. 9,492


00:40:17.359 --> 00:40:19.349
kilometers from the center of the Earth.


00:40:19.359 --> 00:40:21.030
>> Close as it could get before it was


00:40:21.040 --> 00:40:23.750
destroyed by our gravity and we would go


00:40:23.760 --> 00:40:25.670
down with the ship.


00:40:25.680 --> 00:40:26.550
>> Absolutely.


00:40:26.560 --> 00:40:28.069
>> Yeah. In a nutshell. All right. Now,


00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:29.990
we've got that sorted out. Uh, thank


00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:31.589
you, Fred, so much. It's always a


00:40:31.599 --> 00:40:32.870
pleasure.


00:40:32.880 --> 00:40:34.230
>> It's always a pleasure talking to you,


00:40:34.240 --> 00:40:36.230
too, Andrew. And we'll speak again soon.


00:40:36.240 --> 00:40:38.390
We will indeed. And and thank you for uh


00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:39.430
listening. Thank you for your


00:40:39.440 --> 00:40:41.190
contributions. Keep them coming. We love


00:40:41.200 --> 00:40:42.870
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00:40:42.880 --> 00:40:44.870
media or via our website where you can


00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:47.030
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00:40:47.040 --> 00:40:48.870
contact form there so you can send us


00:40:48.880 --> 00:40:51.750
questions. And uh to the patrons,


00:40:51.760 --> 00:40:53.589
there'll be some bonus material coming


00:40:53.599 --> 00:40:56.150
up real soon. Uh other than that, thank


00:40:56.160 --> 00:40:58.470
you and we'll see you again next time on


00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:00.790
another edition of the Space Nuts


00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:01.750
podcast.


00:41:01.760 --> 00:41:03.990
>> Space Nuts. You've been listening to the


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00:41:07.040 --> 00:41:09.990
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