Relativistic Beaming, Martian Waters & Cosmic Trash: The Space Nuts Q&A | Space Nuts: Astronomy...

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Language: en

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Hi there. Thanks for joining us. This is


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a Q&A edition of Space Nuts, where we


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talk astronomy and space science and we


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answer audience questions or we just say


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a lot of words that sound like answers,


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but then they'll check it later on the


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internet and realize we were just giving


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them an absolute load of CODs. Wallop.


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Uh, coming up today, uh, relativist.


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>> You're not supposed to be talking yet.


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Relativistic


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relativistic Doppler beaming. What on


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earth is that? We're about to find out.


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Uh, Sunny has sent us an audio question


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about Mars water. Is it water? Was it


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water? Could it have been something


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else? Uh, Halt is asking how much stuff


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we can send off the planet before the


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planet sort of, you know, starts to fall


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off itself and fusion reaction in the


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sun. We will dispel that confusion very,


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very soon on this episode of Space Nuts.


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>> 15 seconds. Guidance is internal. 10 9


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ignition sequence start.


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>> Space nuts.


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>> 5 4 3 2


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>> 1 2 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1


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>> Space nuts.


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>> Astronauts report. It feels good.


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>> Professor Fred Watson, astronomer at


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large, is here. You've already heard his


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voice. Hello, Fred.


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>> Nice to see you, Andrew. I'm always


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reminded of um and you might know about


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this as well, even though our listeners


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are all too young to remember, but on


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the Goon Show, there was once an episode


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where Eckles came on before he was


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supposed to. Uh and had to make the


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comment, "I'm not here yet."


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>> I remember that. Yes.


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>> I'm not here yet. Uh, which reminds me


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of a famous incident on ABC radio where


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I worked for 22 years, uh, where a, um,


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news reader was trying to do the


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bulletin,


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uh, but they were halfway through a live


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interview with Spike Milligan.


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Spike kept interrupting at the end of


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every sentence with and Spike Milligan.


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And Spike Milligan. And so when the


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story finished, the news reader said da


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da da da and Spike Milligan. He got He


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got fired for that.


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>> Yeah,


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>> he got fired for that.


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>> It's one of the funniest pieces of radio


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you will ever hear. Look it up online,


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but he got canned


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>> probably. Yeah. Um,


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>> yeah,


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>> that was in the old BBC days, probably.


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>> Oh, well, yeah, probably. Well, yeah,


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the times have changed.


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>> Yes, rather.


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>> Uh, let's uh get into some questions,


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Fred. And I've got our first one here


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from Ron who is in upstate New York. Uh


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he says, "Spring's just around the


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corner." He says, "Hope all is well down


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under." Well, if you like wind. Yeah, it


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is. It's going great. It's been pretty


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windy here lately. Uh I have a question


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about relativistic Doppler beaming that


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we see on a black hole's accretion disc,


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which causes the side moving towards us


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to be brighter than the side moving away


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from us. Why are we not seeing blue and


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red Doppler shifts in the color of the


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light in those respective regions? Uh


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there's so much uh and thanks so much


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for the great podcast. It is our


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pleasure. It is our pleasure. Thanks for


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the question, Ron.


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>> It's a good question. Um and um there's


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the answer. Uh Jordy. Jordy. Yeah. Uh so


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we do we do see the Doppler shift. Um


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but the the the reason why we don't talk


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about that is because this radiation


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that's being beamed out is a continuum


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radiation. By that I mean it's at all


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wavelengths.


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Uh so to to make Doppler work just the


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backstory here if you've got something


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coming towards you it's light is shifted


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to the blue. If it's moving away from


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you, its light is shifted to the red.


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Um, but you need a feature in order to


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detect that. Uh, and some sources of


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light, for example, um, it actually even


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works with LEDs does this. But if you


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think of the old, um, orange sodium


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lights, which we used to see, the low


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pressure sodium lights, they emit all


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their light at one wavelength, uh, which


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is called the sodium D line for


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historical reasons. And so if you if you


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had a sodium lamp coming towards you,


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then that peak of wavelength would be


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moved to the blue end of the spectrum.


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If it was going away from you, it'd be


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moved to the red end of the spectrum,


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the sodium line. But in order to so so


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that happens for all moving objects, but


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in order for you to be able to detect


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that it's moving, you need a discrete uh


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peak of light or radiation. Uh, and in


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in the case of a moving sodium lamp,


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that's it. The peak of the sodium sodium


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emission line. If you've got a


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continuum, a spectrum that goes all the


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way from blue to red or violet to red.


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Yes, it can be moved uh by the Doppler


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shift, but you you don't see it. You


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don't detect it. Uh and so in the case


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of the material uh swirling around a


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black hole uh in the accretion disc


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exactly as Ron says it u it actually


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under go something called relativistic


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Doppler beaming and that's that because


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this stuff is moving so fast it's really


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not far short of the speed of light the


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path of the photons is altered and they


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tend to cluster around the direction in


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which the movement is taken. place and


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that's why uh an accretion disc is


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brighter on one side than it is on the


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other. It's brighter in the side that's


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coming toward you because of this


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relativistic Doppler beaming. It's quite


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an esoteric topic. I'm quite amazed that


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we're covering this on Space Nuts, but


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it's uh it's really good stuff.


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>> Thank you, Ron, because you're clearly


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ve very well verssed in this stuff as


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well. I mean, when you look at the


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images of black holes that we now have,


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you you're looking at a an orange


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frosted donut basically, uh, that that's


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that's the primary color, the the


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orange, but it is brighter on one side.


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>> Yeah.


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>> Yes. There there are bite spots in it.


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That's correct. Yeah. And some of that


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will be due to relativistic beaming.


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Yeah.


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>> Okay. And, uh, how many have they taken


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now? I think there's there's been maybe


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three. Three or four.


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>> Yes. Uh so we've got uh M52 was the


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first is that right Messier 52 uh the


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center of our galaxy uh Sagittarius A


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star but also M52 done again with


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polarization so we could see the the


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magnetism in it. I think that's the way


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it worked.


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>> Okay. Um


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>> these were with the event horizon


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telescope


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>> because I've got another one here that's


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uh of M87.


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>> Okay. So there is another object here


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>> that's yeah that's the third one I was


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thinking of I didn't know they done M52


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again but yeah the technologies reached


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a point now where we can actually image


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these things they're not photos though


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are they these are um gathered through


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radio spectrometry of


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>> yeah they are there it's a basically a


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planetized array of radio telescopes


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that um conspire together uh in very


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cunning ways um to make these images to


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synthesize the


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Fantastic stuff. Yeah, Ron, thanks so


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much for the question. Really enjoyed


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that one and uh hopefully hopefully


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we'll hear from you again. Our next


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question comes from Sunny. What a great


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name for somebody who listens to an


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astronomy podcast.


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>> Hello, Space Nuts. This is Sunny Skies


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from Southern California,


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Long Beach. In fact, my question for you


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today is regarding geological formations


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on Mars which indicate there was large


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quantities of water for a long period of


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time


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similar to something we'd see on Earth.


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Is there any other corroborative


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information or data to support that it


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actually was water and not some other


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crazy liquid that we don't have here


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possibly on Earth? Love the podcast.


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Stay sunny.


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>> We're trying to. It's coming into winter


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here, so um yeah, it won't be sunny for


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long. Uh Sunny, lovely to hear from you.


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That's a good question. Uh because we


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we've got a lot of evidence that shows


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there was water, rivers, oceans,


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streams, um you know, um ces pits,


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whatever you want to call them on Mars,


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but that's all gone. Um but we are, you


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know, the telltale signs are there. Um,


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Sunny's question is, was it really water


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or could it have been something else? We


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do know there are other liquid oceans in


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in our solar system that are not water.


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>> Yes, we do. That's right.


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>> Um, and there's more than one kind of


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water, which is also a a factor to


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consider. So, um, yeah. Could he be on


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to something or are we absolutely dead


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set certain that Mars had water?


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>> I think water perhaps. Yes, that's that


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and that's why uh for that reason we


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still we can still see it. So um and


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I'll explain that in a second. Yes. Uh I


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I guess excuse me Sunonny's point is


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>> um we see evidence of liquid. Uh could


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it have been something peculiar that we


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don't know about? And in a way it is um


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because uh we have seen evidence on Mars


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from principally from the Phoenix uh


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lander which was on the which is near


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the northern polar regions the northern


00:09:50.160 --> 00:09:53.110
Arctic of Mars um which actually


00:09:53.120 --> 00:09:55.350
analyzed chemically some of these


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materials. So you might remember Andrew


00:09:57.600 --> 00:09:59.509
Phoenix had a little backhoe. It was


00:09:59.519 --> 00:10:00.790
didn't have any wheels. It was


00:10:00.800 --> 00:10:02.870
stationary, but it had a backhoe with


00:10:02.880 --> 00:10:05.190
which it could scrape away the top


00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:07.590
surface of the soil of Mars. And it


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didn't have to scrape much before it got


00:10:09.839 --> 00:10:13.750
to solid ice. Um, and the first hint


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that this was ice uh was in the color.


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It was white. The second hint was that


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some scraps of this material that had


00:10:21.519 --> 00:10:25.350
been dug up by the backhoe um basically


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disappeared after a few days. they had


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turned directly into vapor. Uh they'


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sublimed and that's exactly what you'd


00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:36.949
expect for water ice to do. But more


00:10:36.959 --> 00:10:39.269
especially that backhoe wasn't just


00:10:39.279 --> 00:10:41.670
there to scrape things. It was to pour


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the things it had dug up into a chemical


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analysis. And that's the smoking gun. uh


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because the chemical analysis


00:10:50.640 --> 00:10:53.829
demonstrated that yes this was water uh


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water ice solid ice and that's there in


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large quantities under the surface of


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the Arctic regions of Mars uh and we


00:11:01.360 --> 00:11:03.350
know it's there in the on the surface


00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:04.949
actually in the polar caps of Mars and


00:11:04.959 --> 00:11:06.310
we know it's water ice from there


00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:08.389
because it's got the spectral signature


00:11:08.399 --> 00:11:11.509
of water ice um but the reason why I say


00:11:11.519 --> 00:11:14.069
it could be a bit different is that we


00:11:14.079 --> 00:11:17.829
believe that um this water is very


00:11:17.839 --> 00:11:18.790
briney


00:11:18.800 --> 00:11:20.389
that it's rich in what are called


00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:23.030
pchlorates which actually lower the the


00:11:23.040 --> 00:11:25.670
freezing point. Um and there there's


00:11:25.680 --> 00:11:27.910
evidence that for a short time there


00:11:27.920 --> 00:11:30.630
were droplets of water actually on the


00:11:30.640 --> 00:11:33.430
legs of the Phoenix lander probably made


00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:36.310
of ice that had been melted during uh


00:11:36.320 --> 00:11:39.350
the descent uh vaporized condensed out


00:11:39.360 --> 00:11:41.910
onto the onto the legs of the lander and


00:11:41.920 --> 00:11:44.310
stayed liquid for a little time uh while


00:11:44.320 --> 00:11:46.069
the heat was while the temperature was


00:11:46.079 --> 00:11:49.509
high enough. So um all the all the


00:11:49.519 --> 00:11:51.829
evidence points to those oceans having


00:11:51.839 --> 00:11:53.829
been made of water. Although it might be


00:11:53.839 --> 00:11:56.310
very briny, it might be chemically


00:11:56.320 --> 00:11:58.790
different uh from from what we


00:11:58.800 --> 00:12:00.389
experience on Earth. But you you've only


00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:02.069
to look at the different forms that


00:12:02.079 --> 00:12:03.750
water comes in on Earth when you've got


00:12:03.760 --> 00:12:05.590
some of them where you've got cyanide


00:12:05.600 --> 00:12:08.230
dissolved in it in some of these pools,


00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:11.110
you know, in in Yeuseite and places like


00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:14.150
that. So, I think uh I think it's a good


00:12:14.160 --> 00:12:17.350
question, but I think basically H2O is


00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:19.350
what makes up the contents of those


00:12:19.360 --> 00:12:20.790
former oceans.


00:12:20.800 --> 00:12:22.790
>> I think what's interesting about Mars


00:12:22.800 --> 00:12:27.350
water is that um it's it's heavier than


00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:30.470
Earth water. It's got a a much higher


00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:34.069
ratio of isotopes um heavy isotopes of


00:12:34.079 --> 00:12:37.590
hydrogen I think is which is which is um


00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:39.829
you know heavy water not the stuff out


00:12:39.839 --> 00:12:42.230
of the nuclear reactors but um


00:12:42.240 --> 00:12:44.629
>> you natural water.


00:12:44.639 --> 00:12:46.150
>> Yes, that's right. It's it's it's


00:12:46.160 --> 00:12:47.590
similar to to what was used in the


00:12:47.600 --> 00:12:50.870
nuclear reactors. So it's it's um


00:12:50.880 --> 00:12:54.069
hydrogen with an extra neutron I guess.


00:12:54.079 --> 00:12:57.430
Is that right? To make dutyium. Uh and


00:12:57.440 --> 00:13:00.710
um and yes, you're right that the ratio


00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:02.949
of uh and once again this comes from


00:13:02.959 --> 00:13:05.430
analysis by machines like Phoenix on the


00:13:05.440 --> 00:13:07.910
surface of Mars. Um there's a higher


00:13:07.920 --> 00:13:10.230
ratio of I think that's the way around


00:13:10.240 --> 00:13:12.629
it is a higher ratio of heavy water to


00:13:12.639 --> 00:13:15.670
normal water on Mars than there is on


00:13:15.680 --> 00:13:17.430
Earth. I think that's the case.


00:13:17.440 --> 00:13:20.389
>> Yeah. And the other thing um Sunny is


00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:22.150
you couldn't drink it in its current


00:13:22.160 --> 00:13:25.030
state. It's It would need to be cleaned


00:13:25.040 --> 00:13:26.230
up a bit.


00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:29.430
>> Yeah. Do you remember we once uh we once


00:13:29.440 --> 00:13:31.190
talked about how much heavy water you


00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:33.030
could drink and still survive? And it's


00:13:33.040 --> 00:13:35.030
I can't it's a fair bit actually. It was


00:13:35.040 --> 00:13:36.310
a few percent.


00:13:36.320 --> 00:13:37.350
>> Yes. But


00:13:37.360 --> 00:13:40.230
>> but if you drank it for long enough, it


00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:43.829
would start you'd start to basically


00:13:43.839 --> 00:13:47.110
>> fall apart. literally fall apart


00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:49.990
>> because the the the dutyium wouldn't you


00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:52.470
know your body's we're not built for it


00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:53.030
basically.


00:13:53.040 --> 00:13:54.069
>> Yes. Exactly.


00:13:54.079 --> 00:13:55.910
>> If if you if we were to find a water


00:13:55.920 --> 00:14:00.470
world that was 100% D2O rather than H2O


00:14:00.480 --> 00:14:02.710
or we couldn't live there.


00:14:02.720 --> 00:14:04.550
>> It would kill us.


00:14:04.560 --> 00:14:05.030
>> Yeah.


00:14:05.040 --> 00:14:08.150
>> Even though it's water just not


00:14:08.160 --> 00:14:09.990
water heavy heavy water. Yes.


00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:12.310
>> Yes. So your point is very very good


00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:14.389
Sunny. there there there's a bit more to


00:14:14.399 --> 00:14:17.189
it than meets the eye. And uh yes, it is


00:14:17.199 --> 00:14:19.189
water on Mars, but it's not the same as


00:14:19.199 --> 00:14:22.710
our water. It's close, but it's not


00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:25.990
quite the same. Thanks for the question.


00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:28.310
And uh hopefully hopefully we'll hear


00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:29.829
from you again, Sunny. Great question,


00:14:29.839 --> 00:14:32.150
that one. This is Space Nuts with Andrew


00:14:32.160 --> 00:14:36.629
Dunley and Professor Fred Watson.


00:14:36.639 --> 00:14:38.150
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00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:12.069
Roger, you're here. Also,


00:16:12.079 --> 00:16:13.350
>> Space Nuts.


00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:15.430
>> I like this next question from Halt


00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:19.590
because it's it's it's so simple and yet


00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:21.829
it's it's something that that people


00:16:21.839 --> 00:16:25.030
wonder about. uh because we have reached


00:16:25.040 --> 00:16:26.790
a point where we've been going, you


00:16:26.800 --> 00:16:29.509
know, sending stuff into space for for


00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:32.790
decades now. And he goes on to say,


00:16:32.800 --> 00:16:34.949
"We've sent several objects beyond


00:16:34.959 --> 00:16:36.949
Earth's gravitational field. How much


00:16:36.959 --> 00:16:39.269
can we send before it affects Earth's


00:16:39.279 --> 00:16:41.590
orbit?" That comes from Halt. I don't


00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:43.110
know where you're from, but uh great


00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:45.269
question, Halt. Love this one. Uh yeah,


00:16:45.279 --> 00:16:46.949
we we're bas basically filling the


00:16:46.959 --> 00:16:50.870
universe with our own junk. Um, but all


00:16:50.880 --> 00:16:52.310
of that stuff that we're sending out


00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:55.189
there comes off planet in one way or


00:16:55.199 --> 00:16:57.990
another. Um, so yeah, what could be the


00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:00.870
long-term effect?


00:17:00.880 --> 00:17:03.670
Yeah, great question. So, um, the


00:17:03.680 --> 00:17:05.829
figures are, and I'm pulling this from


00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:08.309
my memory, but I think this is right. In


00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:10.630
orbit, we have something like I think


00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:14.150
it's about 11,000 tons of stuff.


00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:14.870
>> Is that all?


00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:18.309
>> Um, yeah, something like that. Uh that's


00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:21.029
with uh all of the spacecraft that have


00:17:21.039 --> 00:17:23.429
been launched. Remember these spacecraft


00:17:23.439 --> 00:17:25.510
are made of very light materials because


00:17:25.520 --> 00:17:27.669
you can't you don't want heavy stuff


00:17:27.679 --> 00:17:29.830
being sent into orbit because you're


00:17:29.840 --> 00:17:31.909
wasting fuel. The lighter you can make


00:17:31.919 --> 00:17:34.230
your spacecraft, the less fuel you need.


00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:36.230
Uh so it's all about economics. But I


00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:39.029
think it's about 11,000 tons in orbit.


00:17:39.039 --> 00:17:41.350
Um and when you look at spacecraft that


00:17:41.360 --> 00:17:44.070
have gone beyond that, it's vanishingly


00:17:44.080 --> 00:17:46.950
small. um you know it's probably less


00:17:46.960 --> 00:17:48.870
than 100 tons. It might be about 100


00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:51.110
tons for stuff that's gone out beyond


00:17:51.120 --> 00:17:56.070
Earth orbit. So uh that when you compare


00:17:56.080 --> 00:17:59.350
it with the mass of the Earth, which I


00:17:59.360 --> 00:18:01.669
can't remember off hand, but it's a lot.


00:18:01.679 --> 00:18:04.310
It's one Earth mass actually in units.


00:18:04.320 --> 00:18:06.630
Uh and um you know, but it's it's


00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:08.710
gazillions of tons compared with what


00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:12.230
we've put into space. So um it's not


00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:14.630
going to affect the Earth's orbit. And


00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:17.430
actually the orbit itself, even if we


00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:19.990
put, you know, a significant fraction of


00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:22.470
the Earth's mass into orbit around the


00:18:22.480 --> 00:18:24.789
Earth, it wouldn't necessarily affect


00:18:24.799 --> 00:18:26.789
the Earth's orbit because it tends to


00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:29.590
need an interaction between two objects


00:18:29.600 --> 00:18:31.990
to change the orbit of something, a


00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:34.470
cloud from another planet or something


00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:36.470
like that, that would change the orbit.


00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:38.070
All right?


00:18:38.080 --> 00:18:40.150
Whereas whereas just doing something


00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:42.710
that has the same center of mass as the


00:18:42.720 --> 00:18:44.630
Earth does, if I can put it that way,


00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:46.390
doesn't necessarily change the orbit at


00:18:46.400 --> 00:18:48.950
all. But even notwithstanding that,


00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:50.870
we're no we're nowhere near anything


00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:52.630
that would actually affect the Earth's


00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:53.990
well-being.


00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:58.710
>> The mass of the Earth is 5.97219*


00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:02.390
10 24th power kilogram.


00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:04.230
>> Yep.


00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:07.750
10^ the 24th power kilogram. That sounds


00:19:07.760 --> 00:19:08.630
right.


00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:10.310
>> It's a lot.


00:19:10.320 --> 00:19:13.510
>> I seem to remember that the sun is


00:19:13.520 --> 00:19:16.230
something it's about 10^ the 27 kg I


00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:18.789
think or it could be tons. I can't


00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:20.390
remember but it's


00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:21.909
>> I can look that up too.


00:19:21.919 --> 00:19:24.390
>> Yeah. See mass of the sun. I think it's


00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:26.150
>> 1.989


00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:29.029
10 times 10^ the 30th power kilograms.


00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:31.590
>> Okay. That's that's kilograms. Okay. So


00:19:31.600 --> 00:19:33.830
it's 10 27 tons.


00:19:33.840 --> 00:19:36.630
Yeah, because this Yeah, that's what it


00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:40.870
means. One more one more thing that Halt


00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:43.510
might be interested to know is that um


00:19:43.520 --> 00:19:44.870
you know you've you've given us the


00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:47.830
numbers of how much material


00:19:47.840 --> 00:19:49.750
>> in terms of weight has has left the


00:19:49.760 --> 00:19:53.430
planet which is a negligible amount but


00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:55.430
scientists estimate that roughly 100


00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:58.390
metric tons of cosmic dust like


00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:00.470
micrometeorites enters the earth's


00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:01.270
atmosphere


00:20:01.280 --> 00:20:01.830
>> y


00:20:01.840 --> 00:20:02.950
>> every day.


00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:03.990
>> Every day. That's right.


00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:05.430
>> Every day.


00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:07.029
>> Yeah. So, we're actually getting


00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:09.029
heavier.


00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:10.630
>> Yeah, we are. Yes.


00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:12.390
>> Or more massive, depending on which way


00:20:12.400 --> 00:20:14.789
you want to look at it.


00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:16.870
>> It's it more massive is the correct


00:20:16.880 --> 00:20:19.110
term. You're quite right. To be heavier,


00:20:19.120 --> 00:20:20.630
you need to be in the gravitational


00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:22.870
field of something.


00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:24.549
We are in the sun's gravitational field,


00:20:24.559 --> 00:20:26.230
but we wouldn't think of it that way.


00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:29.029
>> No. No. So


00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:30.549
when you when you think about it, what


00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:33.830
we're what we're kicking out of our


00:20:33.840 --> 00:20:35.909
planet, our gravitational field


00:20:35.919 --> 00:20:38.070
>> is being replaced like


00:20:38.080 --> 00:20:38.870
>> Yes.




00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:40.870
>> by much more.


00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:43.590
>> Yeah. Exactly. So thank you for pointing


00:20:43.600 --> 00:20:45.029
that out.


00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:47.110
>> It's been very useful today.


00:20:47.120 --> 00:20:51.270
>> It's about 100 um 100 tons uh or


00:20:51.280 --> 00:20:53.029
thereabouts. It's a and it's just


00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:54.390
meteoritic material.


00:20:54.400 --> 00:20:56.310
>> Yes. that really usually contributes to


00:20:56.320 --> 00:20:57.750
the Earth's atmosphere because it gets


00:20:57.760 --> 00:20:59.430
vaporized most of it.


00:20:59.440 --> 00:21:02.070
>> To to um quote a famous Scottish


00:21:02.080 --> 00:21:04.630
astronomer, it's space clap


00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:07.029
>> is what it is.


00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:08.870
>> I don't know who that is. I think he


00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:10.789
used to be on my staff at the


00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:12.710
observatory.


00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:14.870
>> Oh dear. All right, Halt, great


00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:16.710
question. Um made made for some


00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:18.390
interesting discussion and and made me


00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:20.789
sound useful for a brief second. Thanks


00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:23.029
for sending it in. Our final question


00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:26.149
comes from Ken. Hi Andrew and Fred. Ken


00:21:26.159 --> 00:21:28.630
from Maruchidor. Longtime listener and


00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:30.870
fan and love the way you make complex


00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:33.830
issues sound so simple.


00:21:33.840 --> 00:21:35.669
I'm trying to understand the basic


00:21:35.679 --> 00:21:37.990
fusion reaction that both me and my


00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:40.710
accountant are struggling with.


00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:43.350
The basic fusion reaction in our sun and


00:21:43.360 --> 00:21:45.830
all main sequence stars converts


00:21:45.840 --> 00:21:49.830
hydrogen to helium to create energy.


00:21:49.840 --> 00:21:52.070
To summarize the reaction for hydrogen


00:21:52.080 --> 00:21:55.110
nuclei that is four protons go through


00:21:55.120 --> 00:21:58.149
two steps to create one helium nucleus


00:21:58.159 --> 00:22:01.830
containing two neutrons and two protons.


00:22:01.840 --> 00:22:04.470
Additionally gamma rays neutrinos and


00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:07.510
posetrons are released.


00:22:07.520 --> 00:22:09.510
My astronomy textbooks say that about


00:22:09.520 --> 00:22:12.149
600 million tons of hydrogen are


00:22:12.159 --> 00:22:15.830
converted to 596 million tons of helium


00:22:15.840 --> 00:22:18.470
every second in our sun.


00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:20.630
The 4 million tons is converted to


00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:25.510
energy as per E= MC².


00:22:25.520 --> 00:22:27.830
If neutrons had a lower mass than


00:22:27.840 --> 00:22:30.870
protons, it would make all perfect


00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:33.669
sense. But they don't. They have a


00:22:33.679 --> 00:22:36.549
higher mass. So the mass of the helium


00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:38.710
nucleus is higher than the mass of the


00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:41.270
four protons.


00:22:41.280 --> 00:22:43.830
All the explanations I've read sound


00:22:43.840 --> 00:22:46.070
pretty dodgy. And my accountant says he


00:22:46.080 --> 00:22:47.669
could never get away with such


00:22:47.679 --> 00:22:50.390
explanations with the tax department.


00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:52.390
Could you please explain the devil in


00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:55.190
the detail that I'm missing?


00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:57.350
>> Thank you, Kenji. He did his homework on


00:22:57.360 --> 00:22:58.390
that one, didn't he?


00:22:58.400 --> 00:22:58.710
>> Wow.


00:22:58.720 --> 00:23:02.149
>> He did. He's absolutely right, too.


00:23:02.159 --> 00:23:04.390
>> And and was in such a terrible part of


00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:07.190
the world there up in Maruchi door. What


00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:10.470
a what a hole.


00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:15.830
Um, I don't think I I think uh I think


00:23:15.840 --> 00:23:18.230
Ken's going to find this answer that I'm


00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:21.750
going to give him pretty dodgy as well.


00:23:21.760 --> 00:23:25.830
Uh because but it is the correct answer.


00:23:25.840 --> 00:23:29.590
Um because it turns out that unlike uh


00:23:29.600 --> 00:23:32.710
Ken's accountant who can do sort of


00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:36.390
arithmetic because dollars don't change


00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:38.950
their mass you know randomly.


00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:39.510
>> Yeah.


00:23:39.520 --> 00:23:42.310
>> You can't do the same with subatomic


00:23:42.320 --> 00:23:43.990
particles.


00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:47.190
um because you have to look at other


00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:49.750
factors and the factor that comes into


00:23:49.760 --> 00:23:51.510
being in this case and I'm sure this is


00:23:51.520 --> 00:23:53.990
what uh what Ken was referring to when


00:23:54.000 --> 00:23:56.549
he talked about dodgy answers is


00:23:56.559 --> 00:24:00.710
something called the binding energy. Um,


00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:04.230
so he's right that the helium 4 that's


00:24:04.240 --> 00:24:08.870
formed by the four hydrogen atoms should


00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:12.230
have slightly more in mass. Uh, should


00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:16.149
have slightly more mass than uh than uh


00:24:16.159 --> 00:24:19.510
the four hydrogen atoms. Um,


00:24:19.520 --> 00:24:23.590
that's because you're uh you're doing


00:24:23.600 --> 00:24:24.870
doing the calculation. I beg you,


00:24:24.880 --> 00:24:26.470
pardon. Um, it's the other way around.


00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:28.549
it should should have slightly less mass


00:24:28.559 --> 00:24:30.549
in order to give you the energy that


00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:32.870
makes the sun shine. But it actually


00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:35.190
turns out to be the other way round. And


00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:37.510
the difference is what I've just called


00:24:37.520 --> 00:24:39.750
it's something called binding energy. Uh


00:24:39.760 --> 00:24:41.669
the difference is the binding energy in


00:24:41.679 --> 00:24:43.990
the helium nucleus which is called a


00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:47.269
mass defect which lowers the actual mass


00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:51.430
of the helium nucleus slightly. So what


00:24:51.440 --> 00:24:53.510
what what Ken's saying is that when you


00:24:53.520 --> 00:24:55.190
add up the masses of all these


00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:58.149
particles, you get something that's more


00:24:58.159 --> 00:25:00.870
massive than what you started. And it


00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:02.710
and you should expect it to be less


00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:04.390
massive than what you started because of


00:25:04.400 --> 00:25:07.909
that the fact that you've got this um uh


00:25:07.919 --> 00:25:09.669
large amount of mass being turned into


00:25:09.679 --> 00:25:13.029
radiation. That's how the sun shines. Uh


00:25:13.039 --> 00:25:15.750
but in fact, it is less than what you


00:25:15.760 --> 00:25:17.430
started with because of this mass


00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:19.430
defect, the binding energy. there's an


00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:22.630
energy that holds uh nuclei together


00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:25.590
which actually effectively contributes


00:25:25.600 --> 00:25:27.510
to their mass because of exactly what


00:25:27.520 --> 00:25:30.789
Ken said, E= MC². And I hope you don't


00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:32.549
think that sounds too dodgy, Ken, but


00:25:32.559 --> 00:25:34.390
that's the answer.


00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:36.390
>> Yeah, Ken and you and your accountant


00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:38.710
can relax now. The numbers do add up.


00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:40.870
They're just a bit weird,


00:25:40.880 --> 00:25:43.350
>> as my grand would say.


00:25:43.360 --> 00:25:45.590
>> I'm sure she would. Uh and she probably


00:25:45.600 --> 00:25:47.110
does the same calculation that I had,


00:25:47.120 --> 00:25:50.149
too. It's um it's just that atoms don't


00:25:50.159 --> 00:25:52.310
behave like dollars do. They they change


00:25:52.320 --> 00:25:54.149
depending on what they're doing.


00:25:54.159 --> 00:25:58.789
>> Yeah. Yeah. My um


00:25:58.799 --> 00:26:02.070
my money acts like atoms that sort of


00:26:02.080 --> 00:26:05.510
implode on each other. They just Yeah.


00:26:05.520 --> 00:26:08.310
That's pretty well what happens. Um


00:26:08.320 --> 00:26:09.909
>> that's called that's called nuclear


00:26:09.919 --> 00:26:12.310
nuclear fishing where it leaks away.


00:26:12.320 --> 00:26:14.950
>> Yes, that's what it is. Yep. Yep.


00:26:14.960 --> 00:26:17.830
Indeed. Um, so yeah, well done, Fred. I


00:26:17.840 --> 00:26:19.830
I


00:26:19.840 --> 00:26:21.590
you might have noticed my eyes glazed


00:26:21.600 --> 00:26:24.710
over when you tried to explain that, but


00:26:24.720 --> 00:26:27.110
um I'm sure Ken understands because the


00:26:27.120 --> 00:26:28.789
the homework you put into that question


00:26:28.799 --> 00:26:31.669
was uh spectacular. Thanks, Ken. Lovely


00:26:31.679 --> 00:26:33.750
to hear from you. Hope all is well in


00:26:33.760 --> 00:26:35.750
that um hideous place called Maruchi


00:26:35.760 --> 00:26:37.269
Door on one of the most beautiful parts


00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:39.750
of the east coast of Australia. It's a


00:26:39.760 --> 00:26:41.510
lovely area. Absolutely beautiful. I'm


00:26:41.520 --> 00:26:43.669
so jealous. Uh I'm going to we got a bit


00:26:43.679 --> 00:26:45.510
of time up our sleeve. Quick one, Fred.


00:26:45.520 --> 00:26:47.830
Um, just a question without notice,


00:26:47.840 --> 00:26:49.269
actually. This comes from Sandy in


00:26:49.279 --> 00:26:50.149
Melbourne.


00:26:50.159 --> 00:26:51.750
>> Good day, Fred and Andrew. I was


00:26:51.760 --> 00:26:53.669
recently watching the live views of the


00:26:53.679 --> 00:26:56.310
Arteimus 2 spacecraft, and there was


00:26:56.320 --> 00:26:59.430
what appears to be dust going past the


00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:03.510
spacecraft. What on earth is it? Uh, is


00:27:03.520 --> 00:27:05.830
it rocks, dust, debris, or exhaust


00:27:05.840 --> 00:27:07.669
material from the ship's maneuvering


00:27:07.679 --> 00:27:10.549
engines? Uh, and he did send a link to


00:27:10.559 --> 00:27:12.789
um a YouTube video of it and and it's


00:27:12.799 --> 00:27:15.430
just really bright pieces of material


00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:19.350
just zipping past the um spacecraft. Uh,


00:27:19.360 --> 00:27:22.310
I would think exhaust maybe. Have you


00:27:22.320 --> 00:27:23.590
>> um come across?


00:27:23.600 --> 00:27:25.750
>> No, I need to look at that. Uh, which


00:27:25.760 --> 00:27:27.750
I'm just going to try and do because um


00:27:27.760 --> 00:27:29.590
I I didn't have a chat. I've been flat


00:27:29.600 --> 00:27:32.470
out all day talking about alum all over


00:27:32.480 --> 00:27:34.070
the place. Wait a minute. Where are we?


00:27:34.080 --> 00:27:38.149
Uh, it's an email that I received. Uh,


00:27:38.159 --> 00:27:40.549
>> just sent it to you again. This is like


00:27:40.559 --> 00:27:42.870
live radio, Fred. We're just like


00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:45.029
>> just doing it on the hop.


00:27:45.039 --> 00:27:46.710
>> Uh,


00:27:46.720 --> 00:27:46.950
yes.


00:27:46.960 --> 00:27:49.190
>> But it's it's a fascinating video. I'm


00:27:49.200 --> 00:27:51.990
just looking at it now and um it's only


00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:53.830
about 15 seconds, but yes, you can see


00:27:53.840 --> 00:27:56.870
all these bright flashes just zipping


00:27:56.880 --> 00:27:59.029
past the spacecraft.


00:27:59.039 --> 00:27:59.830
>> Um


00:27:59.840 --> 00:28:00.710
>> um


00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:03.269
>> it could be exhaust material.


00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:06.230
I'm not able to see your incoming email.


00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:09.430
What's Who is the


00:28:09.440 --> 00:28:12.789
>> It's from um Sandy. Sandy


00:28:12.799 --> 00:28:13.510
>> that um


00:28:13.520 --> 00:28:15.510
>> No, it must have come via Hang on. Here


00:28:15.520 --> 00:28:17.029
we are. Space Nuts.


00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:17.430
>> Yeah.


00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:19.029
>> Is this Yeah. Okay. All right. I've got


00:28:19.039 --> 00:28:19.909
the link.


00:28:19.919 --> 00:28:20.310
>> Okay.


00:28:20.320 --> 00:28:24.950
>> Let me open that up and look at it.


00:28:24.960 --> 00:28:29.590
>> Okay. Uh it could be could be ice.


00:28:29.600 --> 00:28:32.870
>> Oh, I didn't think of that.


00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:36.549
A little bit of stuff going past. Um, it


00:28:36.559 --> 00:28:38.710
could be ice because they have had


00:28:38.720 --> 00:28:41.590
problems with the toilets. Oh.


00:28:41.600 --> 00:28:44.070
>> Uh, which, uh, have frozen up. The


00:28:44.080 --> 00:28:47.750
toilets frozen up. Uh, the exhaust vent


00:28:47.760 --> 00:28:51.190
for the liquid waste has frozen. Uh, and


00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:53.430
they've tried to unblock it. That might


00:28:53.440 --> 00:28:55.029
be what that is.


00:28:55.039 --> 00:28:56.149
>> Okay.


00:28:56.159 --> 00:28:58.389
>> Uh, that's the best guess I can give,


00:28:58.399 --> 00:29:00.630
but I guess well be it. Yeah,


00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:03.110
>> I think it's a good guess and Sandy is


00:29:03.120 --> 00:29:04.870
so glad he asked. We only just talked


00:29:04.880 --> 00:29:06.630
about the toilets the other day. All


00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:09.990
this innovation and and new tech and


00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:12.630
>> yes, the hygiene facility or whatever it


00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:12.950
was.


00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:15.029
>> That's right. It's given all kinds of


00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:17.190
problems, but it's because of the the


00:29:17.200 --> 00:29:19.830
the venting pipe has been freezing up.


00:29:19.840 --> 00:29:21.350
So, they've turned a couple of times


00:29:21.360 --> 00:29:22.630
they've turned the spacecraft towards


00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:24.470
the sun. It's also got heaters in it,


00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:26.389
which might be faulty or something like


00:29:26.399 --> 00:29:30.789
that. But um I believe uh Victor Glover


00:29:30.799 --> 00:29:33.350
who uh is one of the crew members I


00:29:33.360 --> 00:29:36.149
think he's the plumbing expert.


00:29:36.159 --> 00:29:39.110
>> What a great job.


00:29:39.120 --> 00:29:40.389
>> What's your job? I'm a plumber on


00:29:40.399 --> 00:29:40.870
Optimist.


00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:43.350
>> He charges 75 bucks an hour too by the


00:29:43.360 --> 00:29:43.990
way. So


00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:46.950
>> with $150 call out fee as well.


00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:48.710
>> That's right.


00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:50.070
That that happened to me once. I called


00:29:50.080 --> 00:29:51.350
a plumber and he said, "Oh yeah, that's


00:29:51.360 --> 00:29:53.350
a council problem." And then build me 40


00:29:53.360 --> 00:29:55.990
bucks.


00:29:56.000 --> 00:29:57.669
It's true story.


00:29:57.679 --> 00:29:59.269
>> Uh there you go, Sandy. It was It was


00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:02.789
the toilet. It was the toilet. Uh maybe.


00:30:02.799 --> 00:30:04.470
Thanks for the question. I love doing


00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:05.990
questions without notice. You just never


00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:07.350
know what's going to get thrown up.


00:30:07.360 --> 00:30:10.149
Boom. Boom. Um thank you, Fred. We're


00:30:10.159 --> 00:30:11.750
all done.


00:30:11.760 --> 00:30:14.870
>> Um thank goodness for that.


00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:16.389
>> Maybe so. Maybe so.


00:30:16.399 --> 00:30:18.230
>> Yeah, we'll talk again soon, Andrew.


00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:19.830
Thank you.


00:30:19.840 --> 00:30:21.590
>> Professor Fred Watson, astronomer at


00:30:21.600 --> 00:30:23.510
large. And uh don't forget to visit us


00:30:23.520 --> 00:30:26.230
online, especially our website um where


00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:28.870
you can send us your questions, text and


00:30:28.880 --> 00:30:31.350
audio. Spacenuts.io


00:30:31.360 --> 00:30:33.590
is one of the URLs you can use or just


00:30:33.600 --> 00:30:36.310
do Spacenuts podcast as a search in your


00:30:36.320 --> 00:30:38.149
favorite search engine and click on the


00:30:38.159 --> 00:30:40.470
AMA link at the top uh where you can


00:30:40.480 --> 00:30:42.310
send us text and audio questions. So


00:30:42.320 --> 00:30:45.269
don't forget to tell us who you are and


00:30:45.279 --> 00:30:47.590
where you're from. And thanks to Hugh in


00:30:47.600 --> 00:30:49.510
the studio who actually was with us


00:30:49.520 --> 00:30:51.590
today, but he's had to leave because he


00:30:51.600 --> 00:30:53.430
had to go and see his accountant uh


00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:55.669
because uh apparently the tax department


00:30:55.679 --> 00:30:57.750
says there are confusion reactions that


00:30:57.760 --> 00:31:00.470
they want to discuss with him.


00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:01.990
And from me, Andrew Dunley, thanks for


00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:03.430
your company. We'll see you on the next


00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:05.830
episode of Space Nuts. Bye-bye.


00:31:05.840 --> 00:31:08.149
>> Space Nuts. You've been listening to the


00:31:08.159 --> 00:31:11.190
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00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:14.149
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