Origins of Life, Mars Missions & Cosmic Measurements: #490 - Q&A Edition | Space Nuts

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hi there thanks for joining us this is a


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Q&A edition of Space Nuts my name is


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Andrew Dunley so good to have your


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company coming up we are going to answer


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a question from Christian about the


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origins of life we talked about that


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sort of in the last episode well uh


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there's a question on the table from the


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audience renie wants to know about the


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pitfalls of traveling to Mars aside from


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being you know next to Ill on mask uh


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there are other things to consider uh


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Lawrence is asking how we judge


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distances in space and Lee wants to know


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about whether or not there's a


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possibility in the future of James web


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space telescopes two and three that's


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all coming up on this edition of Space


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Nuts 15 seconds guidance is internal 10


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9 ignition sequence start Space Nuts 5 4


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3 2 2 5 4 3 2 Space Nuts as nuts


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reported feels good and in the stead of


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Professor Fred Watson we are again


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joined by johy Horner professor of


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astrophysics hi johy hey how are you


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going I am well good to see you again uh


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we have got plenty of questions to


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answer they're all text questions today


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I I didn't get the audio questions in


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time but we'll save them up for future


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episodes um and we might as well get


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straight into it shall we yeah all right


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happy New Year I've been listening to


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your podcast regularly for over five


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years now


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well you know some people go to prison


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you did that and it's been a source of


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inspiration for me in fact uh it partly


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motivated the work I currently do which


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is why I wanted to share some exciting


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news with you uh We've finally published


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our findings in the proceedings of the


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National Academy of Sciences uh our


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study explores the origins of life and


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argues for its significant implications


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not only for Earth but for other


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planetary bodies Across the Universe uh


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I'd be thrilled to hear your thoughts on


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it uh Fred's mentioned my colleague Juan


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Manuel Garcia ru's earlier work a few


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times on the podcast recently we


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embarked on an exciting new project


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collaborating with the exomars science


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team at the Euro European Space Agency


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uh it's an incredibly stimulating area


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of research and I hope it pequs your


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interest and that comes from Christian


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and forgive me if I mispronounced your


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name Christian uh Jean wine or Jean


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Wayne I hope you know I'm close but uh


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I'm I'm kind of Gob smacked that um


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listening to us kind of partially


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inspired this work that that's I never


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thought I would see the day where um


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something we did could lead to something


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like that not directly but obviously you


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know a few things we've said has um got


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somebody thinking which is what we hope


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to to achieve well absolutely it's


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fabulous and yeah congratulations to


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yourself and Fred by proy for motivating


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and inspiring I think that's fabulous


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and that's one of the real values of


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this kind of what before we dive into


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the awesome paper here one of the


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important things with podcasts like this


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with TV shows with astronomy Outreach in


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general or astrobiology Outreach is you


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don't know where it's going to end but


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people get inspired and I wouldn't be


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here if it wasn't for Patrick Mo doing


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the sky at night back when I was a kid


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yeah and it's fabulous to see that


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impact and that you know just yeah


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genuinely huge cudos to you and Fred for


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having such fabulous podcast and clearly


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going out and inspiring people so that's


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fabulous and it's lovely to hear this


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story now the article itself is on um


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pnas which is as it says the proceedings


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of the National Academy of


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Sciences the challenge with that and


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certainly I'd quite happily recommend


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people have a look at the paper but one


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of the challenges when you publish in a


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journal as prestigious as that is that


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papers have to be very short and concise


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which sometimes makes them harder to


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dive into and I think the authors here


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have done a very good job of dealing


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with that but it is a slightly


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challenging read if you're not banging


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the discipline but I've had read through


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it and it's a fabulous piece of work and


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really really interesting so what


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they've done is building on a really


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fabulous history called the MRI


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experiments this was the idea that


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people are fascinated with how life gots


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started and way back in time there was


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this experiment done which essentially


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attempted to bottle the atmosphere that


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the early Earth had and then pass


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electricity through it essentially


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simulating lightning and UV exposure on


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that early atmosphere and it showed that


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you could get some kind of Prebiotic


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chemicals forming from a very simple


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atmosphere in those kind of conditions


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so it became very much a touchstone of


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early


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astrobiology went out of fashion for a


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while because people argued that the


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early Earth was like that but recent


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Studies have shown that those kind of


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conditions probably were around were


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important this work then kind of Builds


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on that they've done a similar


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experiment with a much more modern and


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much more nuanced setup and looked at


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the results in a lot more detail than


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could have been done all that time ago


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and what's really interesting is again


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with a really simple setup they get


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quite a complex stew of different


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ingredients forming you get this layer


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of stuff floating on top of the water


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essentially but they've dug into that


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and what they found that is that in that


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watery layer there is this what they


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almost describ as protoc celes globules


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that are quite small that are spheres


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with a membrane that are possibly hollow


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inside that could be you know Prebiotic


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chemical factories essentially the


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places where chemistry can happen in


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really interesting


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ways that's really interesting and


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they're talking about these biomorphic


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Proto cells now there's positives and


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negatives to this so one of the


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negatives from this research is that


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when people look for evidence of the


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earliest life on Earth or in future when


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they're looking for evidence in the


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earliest Life on Mars what are the


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things they'd look for of these kind of


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protocells things that are a precursor


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to the cells of life we know and the


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argument has always been that these are


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separate to the formation of the


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compounds and therefore they could be


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seen as a discret bit of evidence of the


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start of the origin of life and what


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this work is saying is that these can


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should be something that forms concomly


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that's the phrase is in the title forms


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at the same time as those Prebiotic


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chemicals so finding these globules is


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not necessarily evidence that life has


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begun but rather that the conditions


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needed for life were there so it's maybe


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saying when you look back at the


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historical record this is not a


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definitive sign of Life necessarily but


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maystead be a sign that of the


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conditions for life to been develop in


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the future so that's a little bit sad


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but on the flip side


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what it's showing is that these


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conditions where you can start to get


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the conditions needed for life to start


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could be quite widely distributed


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because this was is fairly simple these


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are the kind of conditions you could get


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on planets across the cosmos with


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similar conditions to the Earth so the


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other outcome from this is that this


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thing that sets the scene for the


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emergence of life could be more common


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than people think that places where


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you've got oceans and atmospheres like


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this could get these protocells these


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globules that act as accelerators


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incubators for advanced


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chemistry that could be more common


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through the cosmos and therefore the


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scope for finding life out there could


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be greater than we thought so it's a


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really interesting piece of work and I


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think the way that the balance the


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positive and negative outcomes is really


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quite cool now it is quite a complex


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paper to read because of the nature of


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having to be condensed for this very


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prestigious Journal but the results are


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fabulous and if you do get on to it and


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have a look at it the entire


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presentation is available online and


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some of the figures are beautiful some


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of the images that they've got showing


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the globules and the microscopic


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structures they've got a really


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beautiful and it's the kind of thing


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that you almost wish that back when Yuri


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and Miller were doing their experiment


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originally we could have had that same


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quality of imagery and results to go


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back and look at so I think it's an


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absolutely fabulous piece of work and


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I'm really interested to see where it


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goes next and how people react and


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interact with it in other words what


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research does it spawn next are we


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actually going to get to the point where


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we get a distinct idea of where life


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began and also what the difference


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between life and not life is there's


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still not really a hard and fast


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definition of when something is life and


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when it isn't yeah which always makes my


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head hurt I'm an astronomer I'm not a


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biologist and I remember at one of the


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early astrobiology conferences I went to


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talking about life and Sly mentioned


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viruses and all the biologists said oh


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no viruses aren't alive and that's


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totally contrary to my understanding as


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a lay person


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you know as a generalist as an


00:09:01.240 --> 00:09:03.630
astronomer I was Gob smacked but


00:09:03.640 --> 00:09:05.750
apparently by most biological


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definitions a virus is not alive and I


00:09:08.519 --> 00:09:10.269
don't understand how that works now it's


00:09:10.279 --> 00:09:11.990
again back to that old carot about


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you've actually got a spectrum from


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definitely not life to definitely is


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life and we have to put the dividing


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line somewhere but I don't know that


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there's a consensus on that yet and that


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kind of feeds into this as well in that


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this kind of work might help people


00:09:24.680 --> 00:09:27.030
figure out that process and therefore


00:09:27.040 --> 00:09:29.509
help them put a line on this is where


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consider it to be alive versus not


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essentially so yeah fabulous work and


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even better I guess even more


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inspirational given the links to the


00:09:36.600 --> 00:09:37.910
podcast in the past I think that's


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fabulous yeah I I'm chuffed I'm really I


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mean Fred does most of the talking I but


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I have always argued that the recipe for


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Life exists everywhere you've just got


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to have it um you know all put together


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properly and have the right oven to make


00:09:53.079 --> 00:09:57.509
it happen and um I I've always believed


00:09:57.519 --> 00:09:59.389
that when when you look at how life


00:09:59.399 --> 00:10:02.670
flourishes on Earth how a weed can find


00:10:02.680 --> 00:10:06.910
the the slightest crack and grow yeah I


00:10:06.920 --> 00:10:08.670
mean it stands to reason that life could


00:10:08.680 --> 00:10:11.110
flourish anywhere in the universe if the


00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:14.110
conditions are right because we have


00:10:14.120 --> 00:10:17.470
learned that the the the building blocks


00:10:17.480 --> 00:10:19.269
of life all the bits and Bobs that we


00:10:19.279 --> 00:10:22.750
need to to to to establish life exist


00:10:22.760 --> 00:10:25.030
they're flying around the universe as we


00:10:25.040 --> 00:10:28.190
speak um so it's not a giant


00:10:28.200 --> 00:10:31.670
leap uh um to consider that you know if


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if it hits something that's exactly


00:10:34.639 --> 00:10:38.430
right boom you've got life somewhere


00:10:38.440 --> 00:10:41.710
else uh I I don't doubt it exists now it


00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:45.910
might not be Life as we know it um um


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and as you said what is life anyway that


00:10:48.680 --> 00:10:50.069
uh the same question that the great


00:10:50.079 --> 00:10:53.829
George Harrison asked and um we yeah


00:10:53.839 --> 00:10:55.670
there is no real definition of what


00:10:55.680 --> 00:10:58.629
constitutes life how do how do you uh


00:10:58.639 --> 00:11:01.430
you know when was a kid I had a pet rock


00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:03.550
could have been alive you don't


00:11:03.560 --> 00:11:06.350
yeah uh where do you draw the


00:11:06.360 --> 00:11:08.910
line real EST set out there as well so


00:11:08.920 --> 00:11:10.670
it's not like you're limited in space


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we've got an incredible volume of space


00:11:12.839 --> 00:11:14.990
an incredible depth of time and what's


00:11:15.000 --> 00:11:16.670
always sh me is interesting is the


00:11:16.680 --> 00:11:18.430
division between those who believe that


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life won't be out there and those who


00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:23.790
will and I saw this when I'm one of the


00:11:23.800 --> 00:11:24.790
members of the committee of the


00:11:24.800 --> 00:11:26.509
astrobiology Society of Great Britain


00:11:26.519 --> 00:11:28.269
even though I left the country 15 years


00:11:28.279 --> 00:11:30.030
ago now but there's an active


00:11:30.040 --> 00:11:31.629
astrobiology Community there and I first


00:11:31.639 --> 00:11:34.030
started going to conferences with them


00:11:34.040 --> 00:11:36.470
more than 20 years ago now and


00:11:36.480 --> 00:11:38.150
astrobiology conferences are wonderful


00:11:38.160 --> 00:11:39.470
things because they're so


00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:41.629
multidisciplinary so you've got learning


00:11:41.639 --> 00:11:43.069
in areas that you wouldn't normally


00:11:43.079 --> 00:11:44.509
encounter where you learn something new


00:11:44.519 --> 00:11:46.590
you've also got kind of sociological


00:11:46.600 --> 00:11:47.910
learning of the way that different


00:11:47.920 --> 00:11:50.110
disciplines present you know different


00:11:50.120 --> 00:11:52.030
disciplines have different color schemes


00:11:52.040 --> 00:11:53.750
which I'd never thought of you know I've


00:11:53.760 --> 00:11:55.389
been to Talks by geologists that were


00:11:55.399 --> 00:11:57.069
pink texts on a pale blue background


00:11:57.079 --> 00:11:59.310
which made my eyes bleed but you know


00:11:59.320 --> 00:12:00.870
you get these differences there but one


00:12:00.880 --> 00:12:02.389
of the things that struck me early on


00:12:02.399 --> 00:12:04.110
was that the people involved in


00:12:04.120 --> 00:12:06.030
astrobiology from the biology side were


00:12:06.040 --> 00:12:09.269
nearly all very young researchers really


00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:10.949
passionate and excited but because the


00:12:10.959 --> 00:12:13.230
senior biologists were convinced that


00:12:13.240 --> 00:12:14.550
life was impossible and they thought


00:12:14.560 --> 00:12:15.949
that the search life elsewhere was a


00:12:15.959 --> 00:12:18.509
Fool's errand that you just couldn't


00:12:18.519 --> 00:12:19.470
have


00:12:19.480 --> 00:12:23.189
life now if you think that the Earth is


00:12:23.199 --> 00:12:24.949
the only place in the universe with life


00:12:24.959 --> 00:12:27.230
which you know we've got a sample of one


00:12:27.240 --> 00:12:29.470
so that is still possible but you have


00:12:29.480 --> 00:12:31.269
to assume that life is so incredibly


00:12:31.279 --> 00:12:34.230
impo impossible that we a flick if you


00:12:34.240 --> 00:12:36.430
make life even slightly more probable


00:12:36.440 --> 00:12:38.870
than that even if it is not impossible


00:12:38.880 --> 00:12:41.829
just but just vanishingly improbable


00:12:41.839 --> 00:12:43.230
because there is so much real estate


00:12:43.240 --> 00:12:44.750
because there are so many planets around


00:12:44.760 --> 00:12:47.509
so many stars in so many galaxies even


00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:49.629
if life is vanishingly improbable it


00:12:49.639 --> 00:12:51.110
must be everywhere it just might not be


00:12:51.120 --> 00:12:53.150
close enough for us to find and that


00:12:53.160 --> 00:12:55.350
divide is really Stark and it's a


00:12:55.360 --> 00:12:57.790
philosophical one because we have no


00:12:57.800 --> 00:12:59.949
evidence either way it becomes almost a


00:12:59.959 --> 00:13:01.509
belief structure people believe that we


00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:03.069
must be alone or people are convinced


00:13:03.079 --> 00:13:04.949
that we're not and the only way we'll


00:13:04.959 --> 00:13:06.949
find out is by looking and by doing this


00:13:06.959 --> 00:13:08.910
kind of work and I would love to think


00:13:08.920 --> 00:13:10.790
that within our lifetimes we'll know the


00:13:10.800 --> 00:13:14.230
answer one one can only hope yes uh if


00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:18.150
you would like to find that paper um


00:13:18.160 --> 00:13:22.870
it's at um pnas.org pen.org oh that


00:13:22.880 --> 00:13:27.230
didn't sound good uh and uh yeah it's um


00:13:27.240 --> 00:13:30.150
it it's uh


00:13:30.160 --> 00:13:33.030
this it's a long title but um it it


00:13:33.040 --> 00:13:35.389
isant concomittant formation of


00:13:35.399 --> 00:13:38.030
protocells and Prebiotic compounds on


00:13:38.040 --> 00:13:40.750
rep plausible early Earth atmosphere


00:13:40.760 --> 00:13:43.150
there you are uh and and yeah it's not a


00:13:43.160 --> 00:13:45.430
long raate but it is uh yeah it can make


00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:48.750
your brain hurt but uh most scientific


00:13:48.760 --> 00:13:51.269
papers tend to do that but uh yeah and


00:13:51.279 --> 00:13:53.509
and thanks Christian for letting us know


00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:55.870
and and telling us that we had a a tiny


00:13:55.880 --> 00:13:58.189
part to play in the development of your


00:13:58.199 --> 00:14:00.790
work that that really excites me and um


00:14:00.800 --> 00:14:02.710
I'll I'll make sure Fred's aware and he


00:14:02.720 --> 00:14:03.990
might want to talk about that when he


00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:07.990
gets back uh to our next question uh


00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:10.790
this one comes from uh who is it it's


00:14:10.800 --> 00:14:14.269
from reny who is in um Southern uh Sunny


00:14:14.279 --> 00:14:16.230
West Hills


00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:18.870
California um renie tends to ask very


00:14:18.880 --> 00:14:20.629
short sharp questions on a mission to


00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:22.670
Mars would a spaceship Traverse through


00:14:22.680 --> 00:14:25.230
the asteroid belt or would it travel


00:14:25.240 --> 00:14:29.189
above or below the belt yes really good


00:14:29.199 --> 00:14:32.150
question now the asro belt as everybody


00:14:32.160 --> 00:14:34.230
imagines it is between the orbits of


00:14:34.240 --> 00:14:35.870
Mars and Jupiter so when we're going to


00:14:35.880 --> 00:14:38.389
Mars we're still closer to the Sun than


00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:40.550
the asro belt is so you're not really


00:14:40.560 --> 00:14:42.829
going to be traversing the belt anyway


00:14:42.839 --> 00:14:46.550
however Mars is such a tiny puny planet


00:14:46.560 --> 00:14:48.550
with fairly weak gravity and sorry Mars


00:14:48.560 --> 00:14:50.509
but it's true that the in edge of the


00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:52.910
Astro belt basically almost overlaps


00:14:52.920 --> 00:14:54.910
with Mars's orbit and asteroids do cross


00:14:54.920 --> 00:14:57.670
Mars's orbit all the time Ms therefore


00:14:57.680 --> 00:14:59.949
gets hit more often than we do


00:14:59.959 --> 00:15:01.790
fortunately Space is really really


00:15:01.800 --> 00:15:04.949
really big and there's a experiment you


00:15:04.959 --> 00:15:06.430
can do that demonstrates this so if


00:15:06.440 --> 00:15:08.910
you've watched great movies like Star


00:15:08.920 --> 00:15:11.509
Wars you've got asro belts in there as a


00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:14.590
refuge for the brave heroic enemies of


00:15:14.600 --> 00:15:16.949
society and you know being chased by the


00:15:16.959 --> 00:15:18.550
baddies they fly into the astroid belt


00:15:18.560 --> 00:15:19.949
and they have to dodge and weave to get


00:15:19.959 --> 00:15:22.430
through and of course the baddies fail


00:15:22.440 --> 00:15:24.269
terribly crash into things and we chair


00:15:24.279 --> 00:15:25.670
because at heart we're all horrible


00:15:25.680 --> 00:15:28.509
individuals but that's what happens so


00:15:28.519 --> 00:15:30.230
they kind a cultural tick from that is


00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:31.829
that we imagine Astro belts has been


00:15:31.839 --> 00:15:34.629
incredibly densely packed with material


00:15:34.639 --> 00:15:36.790
now if the Astro belt was like that you


00:15:36.800 --> 00:15:38.790
could go out tonight or any night of the


00:15:38.800 --> 00:15:40.870
year and look up and the plane of the


00:15:40.880 --> 00:15:45.350
Sol system would have a band quite broad


00:15:45.360 --> 00:15:48.710
of the sky from Horizon to Horizon where


00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:50.990
you see no stars where you cannot see


00:15:51.000 --> 00:15:53.069
Jupiter when you cannot see Saturn


00:15:53.079 --> 00:15:54.309
because there's an asteroid in the way


00:15:54.319 --> 00:15:55.670
because every line of sight would hit an


00:15:55.680 --> 00:15:57.430
asteroid and that would be glowing


00:15:57.440 --> 00:15:58.990
grayish because it'd be reflecting


00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:00.350
sunlight back to


00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:02.910
us that would be how the sky looks the


00:16:02.920 --> 00:16:05.389
reality is that you don't see the


00:16:05.399 --> 00:16:08.910
asteroid belt you need a telescope or


00:16:08.920 --> 00:16:11.269
binocular to see individual asteroids


00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:13.309
but to have an asteroid pass in front of


00:16:13.319 --> 00:16:15.550
a star and block its light to have an


00:16:15.560 --> 00:16:18.069
occultation is a sufficiently unusual


00:16:18.079 --> 00:16:19.509
event that astronomers will travel


00:16:19.519 --> 00:16:21.910
across the world to set up in the shadow


00:16:21.920 --> 00:16:24.269
of the asteroid to get data that tells


00:16:24.279 --> 00:16:25.990
you how big it is what its shape is by


00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:27.430
the shape of that shadow as it moves


00:16:27.440 --> 00:16:30.350
across the Earth what that tells you is


00:16:30.360 --> 00:16:33.389
that space is mostly empty the fact that


00:16:33.399 --> 00:16:34.949
it is so rare that one of these Ash


00:16:34.959 --> 00:16:37.110
roads lines up with a star is telling


00:16:37.120 --> 00:16:38.870
you that essentially you're going to be


00:16:38.880 --> 00:16:40.509
fairly safe traveling through the ashro


00:16:40.519 --> 00:16:42.509
belt when you talk about there being


00:16:42.519 --> 00:16:43.949
more than a million objects bigger than


00:16:43.959 --> 00:16:46.389
a kilometer across you think space must


00:16:46.399 --> 00:16:48.990
be papped but in actuality that belt is


00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:51.509
so sparsely populated these days that if


00:16:51.519 --> 00:16:52.990
you were ever to be stood on the surface


00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:55.110
of an asteroid and you weren't having to


00:16:55.120 --> 00:16:56.550
worry about how you get home or what


00:16:56.560 --> 00:16:57.990
you're going to breathe if you're stood


00:16:58.000 --> 00:16:59.629
on the surface of that as


00:16:59.639 --> 00:17:01.309
very few other asteroids will be near


00:17:01.319 --> 00:17:03.350
enough to see with your un eded eye


00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:06.549
space is that big the way that you can


00:17:06.559 --> 00:17:08.189
evidence that I guess is the fact we


00:17:08.199 --> 00:17:09.549
sent all these missions to the outer


00:17:09.559 --> 00:17:11.829
planets and not one US Comm AC Cropper


00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:13.630
but also when those missions want to


00:17:13.640 --> 00:17:15.150
visit an asteroid for a bit of added


00:17:15.160 --> 00:17:17.350
value they've got to be very careful in


00:17:17.360 --> 00:17:18.829
picking their trajectory to get near


00:17:18.839 --> 00:17:21.029
enough to see something because space is


00:17:21.039 --> 00:17:23.150
pretty big so in terms of this question


00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:25.630
for Mission to Mars there is debris in


00:17:25.640 --> 00:17:27.029
the inner Sol system that you'd want to


00:17:27.039 --> 00:17:28.950
be aware of but you can basically just


00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:31.070
pick your path and go the odds of you


00:17:31.080 --> 00:17:33.510
intersecting an asteroid are pretty much


00:17:33.520 --> 00:17:35.669
non-existent very very small smaller


00:17:35.679 --> 00:17:37.830
debris may be but the bigger you get the


00:17:37.840 --> 00:17:40.510
less stuff there is even going to the


00:17:40.520 --> 00:17:42.990
outer solar system you just go through


00:17:43.000 --> 00:17:45.150
you don't need to go above or below


00:17:45.160 --> 00:17:46.430
which is fortunate because the orbits of


00:17:46.440 --> 00:17:48.430
the asteroids are quite puffed up you'll


00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:50.750
get up to 30 or even 45 degree tilts


00:17:50.760 --> 00:17:53.510
before the asteroid belt starts to wear


00:17:53.520 --> 00:17:55.070
and so that means you'd have to go very


00:17:55.080 --> 00:17:56.590
very high to get up and then get back


00:17:56.600 --> 00:17:58.430
down again a lot easier to go straight


00:17:58.440 --> 00:18:01.870
through yeah yeah uh and as you said um


00:18:01.880 --> 00:18:04.149
nothing's hit one yet that we've set out


00:18:04.159 --> 00:18:06.669
there so yeah there's plenty of room to


00:18:06.679 --> 00:18:09.070
move through and as you said uh space is


00:18:09.080 --> 00:18:10.510
Big you might think it's a long way down


00:18:10.520 --> 00:18:13.270
the street to the chemist to quite a a


00:18:13.280 --> 00:18:16.950
famous book but um yes space is huge uh


00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:18.909
thanks renie great to hear from you this


00:18:18.919 --> 00:18:21.390
is Space Nuts with Andrew Dunley and


00:18:21.400 --> 00:18:23.630
John de


00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:26.310
Horner time to take a short break to


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00:20:29.919 --> 00:20:32.669
and I feel fine Space Nuts well it's not


00:20:32.679 --> 00:20:34.230
Professor Fred Watson at the moment it's


00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:37.190
Professor jonty Horner Fred's away and


00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:39.270
that means the mice can play


00:20:39.280 --> 00:20:42.310
jonty uh let's go to our next question


00:20:42.320 --> 00:20:44.430
hi your chaps Lawrence from London


00:20:44.440 --> 00:20:47.190
England here I have a question about how


00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:49.510
we map the night sky and judge distances


00:20:49.520 --> 00:20:52.190
accurately specifically how can we make


00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:54.390
any kind of objective claim regarding


00:20:54.400 --> 00:20:56.350
the distance and positions of particular


00:20:56.360 --> 00:20:59.510
stars or planets uh when we know effects


00:20:59.520 --> 00:21:02.190
like gravitational lensing can actively


00:21:02.200 --> 00:21:04.789
disconnect what we see with what is


00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:07.350
actually out there it seems that without


00:21:07.360 --> 00:21:09.750
any sort of unaffected control against


00:21:09.760 --> 00:21:12.510
which we make these judgments it's not


00:21:12.520 --> 00:21:15.870
all U some giant if not educated uh


00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:18.870
guessing game apologies if I've missed


00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:20.669
something incredibly obvious here love


00:21:20.679 --> 00:21:23.789
the Pod uh listen to it every day and uh


00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:25.549
to and from work and congratulations


00:21:25.559 --> 00:21:27.950
Fred on the big step in your career


00:21:27.960 --> 00:21:30.470
you're an INSP ation to all jez chaps


00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:31.830
all the best that's another one I'll


00:21:31.840 --> 00:21:36.390
have to send to Fred uh but um yes um


00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:38.149
yeah measuring things in space how do we


00:21:38.159 --> 00:21:41.230
get it right how do we uh compensate for


00:21:41.240 --> 00:21:42.789
gravitational


00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:44.950
lensing um I think we've had similar


00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:46.230
questions in the past but it's always


00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:48.510
good to revisit these things absolutely


00:21:48.520 --> 00:21:50.070
and it's a good question and we actually


00:21:50.080 --> 00:21:51.870
cover a lot of this when we teach


00:21:51.880 --> 00:21:53.590
astronomy so I've taught this I've gone


00:21:53.600 --> 00:21:55.669
through it and it is true that the


00:21:55.679 --> 00:21:59.789
distances you get are not per perfectly


00:21:59.799 --> 00:22:04.269
precise so we can't say that an object 4


00:22:04.279 --> 00:22:06.789
million light years away is exactly 4


00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:08.470
million there'll be an uncertainty with


00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:10.549
that but the way that we've got the


00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:14.350
distances worked out is a series of


00:22:14.360 --> 00:22:16.029
different runs on a ladder that's how


00:22:16.039 --> 00:22:18.789
it's often described the distance ladder


00:22:18.799 --> 00:22:20.070
and there are different techniques we


00:22:20.080 --> 00:22:23.029
can use that find objects that are more


00:22:23.039 --> 00:22:26.230
easy to spot but are rarer So within our


00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:29.070
solar system it's it took a long time


00:22:29.080 --> 00:22:31.029
but people got the distances worked out


00:22:31.039 --> 00:22:33.669
there were clever experiments that went


00:22:33.679 --> 00:22:35.909
on all the way back to the 1600s and


00:22:35.919 --> 00:22:37.310
even earlier trying to estimate the


00:22:37.320 --> 00:22:40.350
scale of the solar system famously o


00:22:40.360 --> 00:22:43.950
Roma back in the 1670s I believe it was


00:22:43.960 --> 00:22:46.230
did some cool experiments trying to


00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:49.350
measure the speed of light looking at


00:22:49.360 --> 00:22:51.430
the eclipses of the moons of Jupiter and


00:22:51.440 --> 00:22:53.029
in order to measure the speed of light


00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:55.470
he had to have an implicit understanding


00:22:55.480 --> 00:22:57.630
of the scale of the universe or at least


00:22:57.640 --> 00:23:00.510
a scale Loc in the solar system in order


00:23:00.520 --> 00:23:03.549
to make that happen and that scale the


00:23:03.559 --> 00:23:05.830
distance of the planets from the Sun had


00:23:05.840 --> 00:23:08.110
got relatively well established by them


00:23:08.120 --> 00:23:10.590
than to clever observations using


00:23:10.600 --> 00:23:12.669
trigonometry and using little bits of


00:23:12.679 --> 00:23:14.750
things like trigonometric Parallax now


00:23:14.760 --> 00:23:16.070
parala is going to become quite


00:23:16.080 --> 00:23:18.909
important so within the solar system


00:23:18.919 --> 00:23:21.630
once you've got your ruler worked out if


00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:24.110
you know the orbital period of an object


00:23:24.120 --> 00:23:26.590
you know it's semi- major axis which is


00:23:26.600 --> 00:23:29.789
the scale of its orbit we also by


00:23:29.799 --> 00:23:31.510
observing from different locations can


00:23:31.520 --> 00:23:33.669
get quite a good immediate measurement


00:23:33.679 --> 00:23:34.990
of the distance even to things we've


00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:37.390
only just discovered If You observe from


00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:38.710
two different sides of the planet you'll


00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:40.070
see the thing move a little bit against


00:23:40.080 --> 00:23:41.669
the background stars and that gives you


00:23:41.679 --> 00:23:44.590
a distance now that technique that idea


00:23:44.600 --> 00:23:46.590
of pamps comes in really important to


00:23:46.600 --> 00:23:48.149
measure the distance to the nearest


00:23:48.159 --> 00:23:50.430
stars and this is what people were doing


00:23:50.440 --> 00:23:52.909
by the early 1800s you've got people


00:23:52.919 --> 00:23:54.990
like Johan Friedrich Bessel were doing


00:23:55.000 --> 00:23:57.390
this way before the days of optical


00:23:57.400 --> 00:24:00.230
obser of photographic observing should I


00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:02.510
say this is all Optical with the eye but


00:24:02.520 --> 00:24:04.029
they were taking very precise


00:24:04.039 --> 00:24:06.390
measurements of stars against a


00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:07.789
background stars using the biggest


00:24:07.799 --> 00:24:09.269
telescopes of the


00:24:09.279 --> 00:24:11.430
day and they use this technique called


00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:13.630
trigonometric paralax now if you're


00:24:13.640 --> 00:24:15.070
driving while listening to the podcast


00:24:15.080 --> 00:24:16.510
don't do this but if you sat somewhere


00:24:16.520 --> 00:24:18.230
safe you can do this as an experiment


00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:20.230
actually see how it works so if you put


00:24:20.240 --> 00:24:22.390
your finger up in front of your face and


00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:23.870
close your right eye and look where your


00:24:23.880 --> 00:24:25.789
finger is against the background then


00:24:25.799 --> 00:24:27.230
open your right eye and close the left


00:24:27.240 --> 00:24:28.789
you'll see your finger move against the


00:24:28.799 --> 00:24:31.029
background y the closer your finger to


00:24:31.039 --> 00:24:32.870
your face the bigger the


00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:34.990
movement so that's trigonometric


00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:37.110
Parallax and it's part of how our brains


00:24:37.120 --> 00:24:38.750
help us do things like catch a ball that


00:24:38.760 --> 00:24:41.269
surround to us we get a sense of depth


00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:43.029
perception now what I want you to


00:24:43.039 --> 00:24:45.029
imagine is that without killing you or


00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:46.710
causing you pain I'm able to separate


00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:48.190
your eyes and instead of them being a


00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:50.710
couple of inches apart make them 300


00:24:50.720 --> 00:24:53.110
million kilometers apart so I'm putting


00:24:53.120 --> 00:24:54.630
them on one side of the Earth around the


00:24:54.640 --> 00:24:56.470
Sun and then the other that gives you a


00:24:56.480 --> 00:24:58.149
much bigger Baseline and that Baseline


00:24:58.159 --> 00:25:00.950
is enough that nearby Stars when you


00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:02.830
look at them through a telescope will


00:25:02.840 --> 00:25:04.310
appear to move against the background


00:25:04.320 --> 00:25:05.710
stars in just the same way that your


00:25:05.720 --> 00:25:07.230
finger does when you look from the left


00:25:07.240 --> 00:25:09.430
eye and the right eye so that gives us a


00:25:09.440 --> 00:25:11.549
way to measure the distance to those


00:25:11.559 --> 00:25:13.230
Stars so long as we know the distance


00:25:13.240 --> 00:25:15.190
that the Earth has moved that's the


00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:16.549
distance of the Earth from the Sun so if


00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:18.789
we know the size of the Baseline we know


00:25:18.799 --> 00:25:21.310
the angle that the Stars moving through


00:25:21.320 --> 00:25:23.230
fairly simple trigonometry allows you to


00:25:23.240 --> 00:25:25.950
calculate the distance and that gives us


00:25:25.960 --> 00:25:27.590
the distance to the nearest stars and


00:25:27.600 --> 00:25:29.110
the better your tell up the better your


00:25:29.120 --> 00:25:31.269
facility the more accurately you can


00:25:31.279 --> 00:25:32.950
measure that which is why the guia


00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:35.190
mission at the minute is so incredible


00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:36.789
the guia mission is a spacecraft


00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:38.389
floating around out there in space with


00:25:38.399 --> 00:25:41.269
an incredibly precise camera that is


00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:43.110
among many other things measuring the


00:25:43.120 --> 00:25:45.710
parats and the proper motion of about


00:25:45.720 --> 00:25:49.470
two billion with a B two billion stars


00:25:49.480 --> 00:25:51.669
that's depend depending on the number


00:25:51.679 --> 00:25:54.070
you estimate a half a percent to 1% of


00:25:54.080 --> 00:25:56.789
all stars in our galaxy will be able to


00:25:56.799 --> 00:25:59.070
have their distance measured by this


00:25:59.080 --> 00:26:01.389
spacecraft but eventually things get so


00:26:01.399 --> 00:26:03.830
far away that you can't use paradilla


00:26:03.840 --> 00:26:05.269
anymore they just move too little for


00:26:05.279 --> 00:26:07.950
you to measure it how then do you get


00:26:07.960 --> 00:26:09.990
the distance to the next subject well


00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:12.070
you go back to the early


00:26:12.080 --> 00:26:14.590
1900s and you had a great astronomer I


00:26:14.600 --> 00:26:17.470
think it was henrieta levit who did this


00:26:17.480 --> 00:26:20.870
fabulous fabulous work as one of the


00:26:20.880 --> 00:26:22.669
calculators one of the astronomers at a


00:26:22.679 --> 00:26:25.070
great American Observatory and she was


00:26:25.080 --> 00:26:26.990
looking at photographic plates of the


00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:29.029
large melanic cloud which is one of our


00:26:29.039 --> 00:26:31.950
satellite galaxies and studying them and


00:26:31.960 --> 00:26:33.630
what she realized was that there was a


00:26:33.640 --> 00:26:36.269
group of variable Stars which we call


00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:38.590
the seid variables after Delta sephi


00:26:38.600 --> 00:26:40.909
which is the brightest one in the sky


00:26:40.919 --> 00:26:43.110
that were all varying periodically they


00:26:43.120 --> 00:26:46.149
were getting brighter and fainter but


00:26:46.159 --> 00:26:48.190
the stars that were the same brightness


00:26:48.200 --> 00:26:49.870
that were varying this way also varied


00:26:49.880 --> 00:26:51.389
with the same period now because all


00:26:51.399 --> 00:26:53.389
these stars were in the same galaxy a


00:26:53.399 --> 00:26:55.510
long way away they were essentially at


00:26:55.520 --> 00:26:57.630
the same distance the size of that


00:26:57.640 --> 00:26:59.149
Galaxy comp compared to its distance is


00:26:59.159 --> 00:27:00.549
quite small so all the starsu was


00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:02.750
studying in that field of view in that


00:27:02.760 --> 00:27:04.909
Galaxy were effectively the same


00:27:04.919 --> 00:27:07.149
distance ah so the stars that looked


00:27:07.159 --> 00:27:09.750
fenter actually were fenter and the


00:27:09.760 --> 00:27:11.350
stars that looked brighter actually were


00:27:11.360 --> 00:27:13.630
intrinsically brighter and what she


00:27:13.640 --> 00:27:15.430
found was that there was a relationship


00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:17.350
between the period of these oscillations


00:27:17.360 --> 00:27:18.350
and the


00:27:18.360 --> 00:27:20.470
brightness which is brilliant what that


00:27:20.480 --> 00:27:22.789
means is if you see a star oscillating


00:27:22.799 --> 00:27:25.549
in this way and you measure its period


00:27:25.559 --> 00:27:29.470
you know intrinsically how bright it is


00:27:29.480 --> 00:27:31.669
and you know how bright it is in the sky


00:27:31.679 --> 00:27:33.149
so that allows you to work out its


00:27:33.159 --> 00:27:35.430
distance there's an equation we can use


00:27:35.440 --> 00:27:36.909
which allows you to compare the true


00:27:36.919 --> 00:27:39.269
brightness and The observed brightness


00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:41.310
so that gives you an independent measure


00:27:41.320 --> 00:27:42.710
of distance that tells you which of


00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:44.389
these stars are closer or further away


00:27:44.399 --> 00:27:46.909
across the sky but you need to calibrate


00:27:46.919 --> 00:27:49.389
that you can say that one star is closer


00:27:49.399 --> 00:27:50.830
than another but until you know the


00:27:50.840 --> 00:27:53.029
distance of one of the Stars that's not


00:27:53.039 --> 00:27:55.710
really useful but fortunately the very


00:27:55.720 --> 00:27:58.190
closest of these seped variable Stars


00:27:58.200 --> 00:27:59.630
are close enough to also measure the


00:27:59.640 --> 00:28:02.350
distance with padal apps so that gives


00:28:02.360 --> 00:28:05.509
you a way to quantify the scale now


00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:06.909
these are quite Bright Stars so you can


00:28:06.919 --> 00:28:09.310
even see them nearby galaxies so that


00:28:09.320 --> 00:28:10.990
gives you another rung on the distance


00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:13.350
ladder and you can see these Stars you


00:28:13.360 --> 00:28:14.830
can spot them you can measure their


00:28:14.840 --> 00:28:17.029
variability which tells you how luminous


00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:18.470
they are how intrinsically bright they


00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:20.149
are and you can measure how bright they


00:28:20.159 --> 00:28:22.789
appear and use that to get the distance


00:28:22.799 --> 00:28:25.509
and that gets you out a bit further but


00:28:25.519 --> 00:28:27.149
then again they get too faint you can't


00:28:27.159 --> 00:28:29.149
see them but there are some types of


00:28:29.159 --> 00:28:32.110
supernova explosion that it turns out


00:28:32.120 --> 00:28:34.470
are very very regular in their Peak


00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:36.950
Luminosity how much light they give off


00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:39.029
so if you see a supernova behav in a


00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:40.669
certain way can identify it's one of


00:28:40.679 --> 00:28:43.470
these kind of supern noi then that tells


00:28:43.480 --> 00:28:45.509
you you know exactly how luminous it got


00:28:45.519 --> 00:28:46.710
and once again you can measure the


00:28:46.720 --> 00:28:49.590
brightness as we see it put the two


00:28:49.600 --> 00:28:52.070
together to get the distance with those


00:28:52.080 --> 00:28:54.350
we can use a seid variables to set the


00:28:54.360 --> 00:28:56.909
standard these standard candles you can


00:28:56.919 --> 00:28:58.909
get the distance of supern noi and that


00:28:58.919 --> 00:29:01.909
gives you your distance scale so there


00:29:01.919 --> 00:29:04.630
are other ladders other rungs on this


00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:06.149
ladder but that's the essential way it


00:29:06.159 --> 00:29:09.389
works now it's not perfect there are


00:29:09.399 --> 00:29:11.470
uncertainties that accumulate as you go


00:29:11.480 --> 00:29:13.909
further and further away so the more


00:29:13.919 --> 00:29:16.310
distant something is from us the larger


00:29:16.320 --> 00:29:19.070
the uncertainty on its distance will be


00:29:19.080 --> 00:29:20.750
so for objects in the solar system we


00:29:20.760 --> 00:29:22.389
know the distances with Incredible


00:29:22.399 --> 00:29:23.750
accuracy nowaday particularly for the


00:29:23.760 --> 00:29:26.149
objects we've studied really well the


00:29:26.159 --> 00:29:28.310
nearest Stars again we know that very


00:29:28.320 --> 00:29:31.470
very accurately but not as precisely as


00:29:31.480 --> 00:29:32.830
we know the distance to the objects in


00:29:32.840 --> 00:29:35.630
the solar system and the further you go


00:29:35.640 --> 00:29:37.070
the bigger the uncertainty the bigger


00:29:37.080 --> 00:29:38.549
the error gets on the measurement


00:29:38.559 --> 00:29:40.830
compared to the measurement itself now


00:29:40.840 --> 00:29:42.789
all of these things like gravitational


00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:45.350
lensing and stuff like that interfere


00:29:45.360 --> 00:29:47.789
for some objects in some


00:29:47.799 --> 00:29:49.830
locations but they're not the end of the


00:29:49.840 --> 00:29:51.350
world because they're a small subset of


00:29:51.360 --> 00:29:53.070
the objects and there are small effect


00:29:53.080 --> 00:29:55.750
on the total of it so if you've got and


00:29:55.760 --> 00:29:57.269
this is getting a bit further from my


00:29:57.279 --> 00:29:58.630
personal area that's expertise but if


00:29:58.640 --> 00:30:00.149
you've got a distant Galaxy that is


00:30:00.159 --> 00:30:01.950
lensed by a foreground


00:30:01.960 --> 00:30:04.190
object the distance along the different


00:30:04.200 --> 00:30:05.630
light paths is still going to be very


00:30:05.640 --> 00:30:07.909
similar to it coming direct you're only


00:30:07.919 --> 00:30:09.710
deviating by a couple of degrees off


00:30:09.720 --> 00:30:12.029
that line and then getting bent back so


00:30:12.039 --> 00:30:13.389
even if that lights had to travel a


00:30:13.399 --> 00:30:15.630
little bit further the uncertainty is


00:30:15.640 --> 00:30:17.509
still within all the other uncertainties


00:30:17.519 --> 00:30:20.110
there so that's a part of the story as


00:30:20.120 --> 00:30:22.630
well and we can observe these things now


00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:24.029
one of the nice things is for some of


00:30:24.039 --> 00:30:26.110
the really extremely distant things that


00:30:26.120 --> 00:30:28.830
are lensed that lensing gives us A


00:30:28.840 --> 00:30:30.430
Brighter Image than we would get if the


00:30:30.440 --> 00:30:32.630
thing in the forground wasn't there


00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:34.190
which has allowed people to observe


00:30:34.200 --> 00:30:36.870
these Supernova and them to help give an


00:30:36.880 --> 00:30:38.230
independent confirmation of their


00:30:38.240 --> 00:30:40.549
extreme distances you've also had a


00:30:40.559 --> 00:30:42.630
couple of qu occasion I believe where


00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:44.230
you've got these fragmented lensed


00:30:44.240 --> 00:30:46.630
images these beautiful things you see in


00:30:46.640 --> 00:30:48.230
some of the asro photos from things like


00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:50.830
Hubble we've got a distant Galaxy with a


00:30:50.840 --> 00:30:52.110
lens in the foreground and you've got


00:30:52.120 --> 00:30:55.389
multiple images of the same galaxy and I


00:30:55.399 --> 00:30:57.389
believe that s to be corrected on this


00:30:57.399 --> 00:30:59.509
that there has been a case at least once


00:30:59.519 --> 00:31:01.669
where a supernova has been seen in the


00:31:01.679 --> 00:31:03.149
different fragments of the lens coming


00:31:03.159 --> 00:31:04.669
at slightly different times because the


00:31:04.679 --> 00:31:06.990
light paths are different lenss so we


00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:09.269
can even see the differences in the


00:31:09.279 --> 00:31:11.669
distance for the different images


00:31:11.679 --> 00:31:14.070
because of the asymmetry in the lens


00:31:14.080 --> 00:31:15.470
fact that it's not perfectly centered


00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:17.470
essentially so there's a lot we can dig


00:31:17.480 --> 00:31:19.509
into there and if you want to know more


00:31:19.519 --> 00:31:21.590
about it searching you know the kind of


00:31:21.600 --> 00:31:23.750
Galactic distance scale the you know the


00:31:23.760 --> 00:31:25.950
distance ladder looking up SEF with


00:31:25.960 --> 00:31:28.629
variables and the story of the um


00:31:28.639 --> 00:31:30.870
incredible scientists in the early 1900s


00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:33.310
the women who worked there under this


00:31:33.320 --> 00:31:34.990
remarkable science is well worth looking


00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:36.350
into as well you've got people like


00:31:36.360 --> 00:31:39.070
Henry to levit Annie Jump camon who did


00:31:39.080 --> 00:31:40.509
similar work at the same Institute at


00:31:40.519 --> 00:31:42.669
the time these kind of overlooked Heroes


00:31:42.679 --> 00:31:44.950
of astronomy that did absolutely


00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:47.710
astonishing work and led to this


00:31:47.720 --> 00:31:49.350
knowledge that we have


00:31:49.360 --> 00:31:52.909
now wow um there go Lawrence I bet you


00:31:52.919 --> 00:31:54.710
didn't expect that answer but uh you've


00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:57.389
got plenty to work with so uh off you go


00:31:57.399 --> 00:31:59.310
do your home work and get back to us


00:31:59.320 --> 00:32:01.070
when you've got when you've got another


00:32:01.080 --> 00:32:05.190
follow-up question but yeah uh it


00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:08.070
um yeah I mean it's a great explanation


00:32:08.080 --> 00:32:10.990
and there's a lot more to it than meets


00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:15.830
the eye bom


00:32:15.840 --> 00:32:21.029
bom Space Nuts um one final question and


00:32:21.039 --> 00:32:25.029
this one comes from Lee I'm listening to


00:32:25.039 --> 00:32:26.830
the episode discussing the 9 to1


00:32:26.840 --> 00:32:29.230
subscription rate the James web space


00:32:29.240 --> 00:32:33.470
telescopes time I understand that jwst


00:32:33.480 --> 00:32:36.830
costs a few dollars but um surely most


00:32:36.840 --> 00:32:39.950
of the cost was in uh tooling


00:32:39.960 --> 00:32:42.549
Contracting Etc wouldn't NASA have


00:32:42.559 --> 00:32:44.269
contract options to build additional


00:32:44.279 --> 00:32:47.029
systems such as in the event of a launch


00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:49.470
failure since the tooling and such is


00:32:49.480 --> 00:32:52.070
already made and the science value is so


00:32:52.080 --> 00:32:55.350
high would they ever consider consider


00:32:55.360 --> 00:32:57.629
building James web space telescopes to


00:32:57.639 --> 00:33:01.110
and three just seems logical to buy in B


00:33:01.120 --> 00:33:03.990
keep up the good work she's Lee uh I


00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:05.590
think when Fred and I were first talking


00:33:05.600 --> 00:33:09.389
about James web um we we talked about


00:33:09.399 --> 00:33:10.669
the fact that they had to get this


00:33:10.679 --> 00:33:12.430
absolutely right first go because there


00:33:12.440 --> 00:33:15.149
was no going back if they made a mistake


00:33:15.159 --> 00:33:17.669
so that may well help answer the


00:33:17.679 --> 00:33:20.509
question from Lee but uh your thoughts


00:33:20.519 --> 00:33:23.110
jonty there aren't any plans at the


00:33:23.120 --> 00:33:26.789
minute for jwsc Mark I Mark II um it's


00:33:26.799 --> 00:33:29.430
interesting when you go back to Hubble


00:33:29.440 --> 00:33:32.789
but the US military has spare hubbles


00:33:32.799 --> 00:33:34.789
lying around so there's great great


00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:36.470
Observatory coming online in a few years


00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:38.830
time when it gets launched um Nancy


00:33:38.840 --> 00:33:41.590
Grace Roman telescope I think it is that


00:33:41.600 --> 00:33:44.029
has its origin in the fact that Hub


00:33:44.039 --> 00:33:45.710
space telescopes are now all technology


00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:47.710
for the military so NASA got approached


00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:49.950
apparently and told oh by the way we've


00:33:49.960 --> 00:33:51.310
got three or four spare hubbles lying


00:33:51.320 --> 00:33:54.350
around could you use them um and the


00:33:54.360 --> 00:33:55.470
ones that the military were using


00:33:55.480 --> 00:33:56.990
obviously point in a different direction


00:33:57.000 --> 00:33:58.149
because they look down rather than


00:33:58.159 --> 00:34:01.149
looking up I don't think that's the same


00:34:01.159 --> 00:34:04.310
story with jwst and part of the issue


00:34:04.320 --> 00:34:06.789
here as well is a development time um


00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:09.270
jwsc famously launched about 20 years


00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:11.589
after it was initially scheduled to and


00:34:11.599 --> 00:34:13.230
the first discussions the first planning


00:34:13.240 --> 00:34:16.149
for jwsd was actually in the 1980s and


00:34:16.159 --> 00:34:18.470
it took until 2021 for it to get


00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:20.710
launched that's really challenging and


00:34:20.720 --> 00:34:22.230
there is nothing in the pipeline to do


00:34:22.240 --> 00:34:25.190
it now the idea of having the production


00:34:25.200 --> 00:34:28.149
line is something that's become Rel for


00:34:28.159 --> 00:34:31.109
smaller telescopes we at unq have this


00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:32.510
fabulous Observatory Mount Kent


00:34:32.520 --> 00:34:34.310
Observatory where we've got a dedicated


00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:36.790
facility for finding and characterizing


00:34:36.800 --> 00:34:39.230
planets around the stars and we're able


00:34:39.240 --> 00:34:41.669
to do that on a university scale budget


00:34:41.679 --> 00:34:43.790
with our collaborators because for


00:34:43.800 --> 00:34:45.430
smaller telescopes there are now


00:34:45.440 --> 00:34:47.069
companies who produce these things on a


00:34:47.079 --> 00:34:48.310
production line and we're having


00:34:48.320 --> 00:34:50.109
essentially the Model T Ford revolution


00:34:50.119 --> 00:34:53.589
in telescopes where for small telescopes


00:34:53.599 --> 00:34:55.510
people and not and by small telescopes


00:34:55.520 --> 00:34:57.030
here I'm talking telescopes with mirrors


00:34:57.040 --> 00:34:59.230
that are 7 ctim or a meter across so


00:34:59.240 --> 00:35:00.829
they're still a lot bigger than your


00:35:00.839 --> 00:35:03.349
typical backyard scale but they're small


00:35:03.359 --> 00:35:05.870
compared to jwsc or compared to the ver


00:35:05.880 --> 00:35:08.589
ruin Observatory things like that yeah


00:35:08.599 --> 00:35:10.790
and there is sufficient demand from the


00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:12.750
military from commercial interests from


00:35:12.760 --> 00:35:15.150
astronomers and from amateur astronomers


00:35:15.160 --> 00:35:17.270
that it's now sufficiently profitable


00:35:17.280 --> 00:35:18.710
for companies to do these things on a


00:35:18.720 --> 00:35:21.349
production line and what that's led to


00:35:21.359 --> 00:35:22.510
is a dropping the cost of these


00:35:22.520 --> 00:35:24.870
telescopes of an order of magnitude


00:35:24.880 --> 00:35:28.190
which lets us build these bespoke observ


00:35:28.200 --> 00:35:30.349
that are tasked with a single task to do


00:35:30.359 --> 00:35:33.829
a single thing the problem is that that


00:35:33.839 --> 00:35:36.390
production line thing is okay for


00:35:36.400 --> 00:35:39.630
telescopes at a 7 cm or a meter across


00:35:39.640 --> 00:35:41.390
it's not telescopes at The Cutting Edge


00:35:41.400 --> 00:35:44.349
of the biggest in the world the most


00:35:44.359 --> 00:35:45.550
complex in the world these are


00:35:45.560 --> 00:35:46.990
relatively simple


00:35:47.000 --> 00:35:50.630
telescopes there is no motivation as far


00:35:50.640 --> 00:35:53.030
as I can tell it's not a good Financial


00:35:53.040 --> 00:35:54.190
thing to say we're going to build a


00:35:54.200 --> 00:35:56.390
production line for jwss because it's


00:35:56.400 --> 00:35:58.510
just not the market for that them the


00:35:58.520 --> 00:36:00.510
cost is so high the use case is so small


00:36:00.520 --> 00:36:01.950
I'd love there to be nine out there but


00:36:01.960 --> 00:36:03.270
I would lay odds that if there were nine


00:36:03.280 --> 00:36:05.670
JW SDS they would still be over


00:36:05.680 --> 00:36:07.309
subscribed by 9 to1 because there's just


00:36:07.319 --> 00:36:09.950
so much science that we want to get done


00:36:09.960 --> 00:36:12.150
the focus is on the next generation of


00:36:12.160 --> 00:36:13.670
telescopes there a Vera Rubin


00:36:13.680 --> 00:36:15.470
Observatory coming online in the next


00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:17.589
year or two that'll see first light that


00:36:17.599 --> 00:36:19.510
will revolutionize astronomy I'm really


00:36:19.520 --> 00:36:21.150
excited about that and that's


00:36:21.160 --> 00:36:24.230
groundbased but that's an 8.3 M diameter


00:36:24.240 --> 00:36:27.069
primary mirror but a a incredibly


00:36:27.079 --> 00:36:29.190
incredible fast photographic lens so


00:36:29.200 --> 00:36:31.309
it'll have it's like having a really


00:36:31.319 --> 00:36:33.390
fast lens on your camera but it been 8.3


00:36:33.400 --> 00:36:36.230
me across that will let people survey


00:36:36.240 --> 00:36:39.109
the entire Sky once a week down to


00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:41.270
magnitude 20 which is about a billion


00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:43.270
times fenter than the human eye can see


00:36:43.280 --> 00:36:45.829
every single week and that's predicted


00:36:45.839 --> 00:36:47.230
to increase the number of objects we


00:36:47.240 --> 00:36:48.910
know in the solar system by factor of 10


00:36:48.920 --> 00:36:51.630
to 100 times within a year to do similar


00:36:51.640 --> 00:36:54.270
things for the rest of astronomy and


00:36:54.280 --> 00:36:56.109
things like that things like the James


00:36:56.119 --> 00:36:58.870
web which are really at The Cutting Edge


00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:01.190
of what we can do tend to be one-offs


00:37:01.200 --> 00:37:02.710
because they're incredibly expensive


00:37:02.720 --> 00:37:04.710
they require huge amounts of Technology


00:37:04.720 --> 00:37:07.349
Innovation to make happen but they're


00:37:07.359 --> 00:37:09.309
also such an incredibly long lead time


00:37:09.319 --> 00:37:10.589
that by the time it's up there people


00:37:10.599 --> 00:37:12.390
are planning the next big things yeah


00:37:12.400 --> 00:37:13.470
and we're talking for space


00:37:13.480 --> 00:37:15.309
observatories about telescopes that want


00:37:15.319 --> 00:37:17.750
launch until the late 2030s early 2040s


00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:19.990
now nothing that I'm aware of is a


00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:22.309
direct analog for James web it's


00:37:22.319 --> 00:37:24.309
probably worth having aside here I like


00:37:24.319 --> 00:37:26.550
to talk about this you sometimes get


00:37:26.560 --> 00:37:28.109
people saying why do we spend so much


00:37:28.119 --> 00:37:30.670
money on this why do the US governments


00:37:30.680 --> 00:37:33.430
continue to give billions to NASA and


00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:34.829
trly spend that money on things like


00:37:34.839 --> 00:37:38.710
curing cancer you know really you


00:37:38.720 --> 00:37:42.950
question semi- regularly and for


00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:46.309
me what we as scientists always Overlook


00:37:46.319 --> 00:37:48.069
is the fact that the motivations of


00:37:48.079 --> 00:37:49.550
governments to fund these things are not


00:37:49.560 --> 00:37:51.790
really the science we always when we get


00:37:51.800 --> 00:37:53.190
asked that question so but it's awesome


00:37:53.200 --> 00:37:55.030
and we want to learn stuff and we're so


00:37:55.040 --> 00:37:57.230
passionate and that's a really valid


00:37:57.240 --> 00:37:58.910
answer if you share that passion but if


00:37:58.920 --> 00:38:01.630
you don't it's meaningless what's


00:38:01.640 --> 00:38:04.109
actually going on with NASA and with


00:38:04.119 --> 00:38:05.270
other governments around the world that


00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:06.750
are pumping huge amounts of money into


00:38:06.760 --> 00:38:08.150
this is that they're aware of the return


00:38:08.160 --> 00:38:10.230
that they'll got on their investment to


00:38:10.240 --> 00:38:12.630
build James web was ridiculously


00:38:12.640 --> 00:38:14.430
expensive I think it's approaching 10


00:38:14.440 --> 00:38:16.309
billion US Dollars that's billion with a


00:38:16.319 --> 00:38:19.630
B again that's a lot for a CO government


00:38:19.640 --> 00:38:21.230
to invest especially when you think yeah


00:38:21.240 --> 00:38:22.910
should we be investing in curing cancer


00:38:22.920 --> 00:38:25.510
but to do that you're looking at solving


00:38:25.520 --> 00:38:27.030
technology problems that have never been


00:38:27.040 --> 00:38:28.670
solved building cameras to make


00:38:28.680 --> 00:38:30.190
measurements with a Precision that's


00:38:30.200 --> 00:38:31.349
never been


00:38:31.359 --> 00:38:33.829
achieved and that drives a huge amount


00:38:33.839 --> 00:38:35.950
of technological


00:38:35.960 --> 00:38:38.309
innovation for the government funding


00:38:38.319 --> 00:38:39.910
NASA the great majority of the people


00:38:39.920 --> 00:38:42.270
aren't at all interested in the science


00:38:42.280 --> 00:38:43.910
but what they're aware of is that


00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:45.670
historically since it Formed without


00:38:45.680 --> 00:38:48.390
fail year on year NASA has had return on


00:38:48.400 --> 00:38:50.829
investment of at least 10 to one so for


00:38:50.839 --> 00:38:53.270
every dollar that is invested the return


00:38:53.280 --> 00:38:55.870
to the economy is more than $10 and


00:38:55.880 --> 00:38:57.109
there is no other business that I'm


00:38:57.119 --> 00:38:58.589
aware of of that has that return on


00:38:58.599 --> 00:39:00.190
investment so commercially it makes a


00:39:00.200 --> 00:39:03.349
lot of sense but also for things like


00:39:03.359 --> 00:39:05.870
curing cancer if you're a doctor who


00:39:05.880 --> 00:39:09.750
wants to cure cancer and you want to be


00:39:09.760 --> 00:39:11.390
able to study the human body you're


00:39:11.400 --> 00:39:12.870
going to need better cameras better


00:39:12.880 --> 00:39:15.750
detection tools better software but


00:39:15.760 --> 00:39:17.829
you're a doctor you're saving lives you


00:39:17.839 --> 00:39:19.270
can't say I'm going to let my patients


00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:20.589
die because I'm going to go spend five


00:39:20.599 --> 00:39:22.990
years developing new tool that's not


00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:25.270
going to happen but the tools that are


00:39:25.280 --> 00:39:28.230
developed for these astronomical things


00:39:28.240 --> 00:39:30.750
for instruments for facilities for space


00:39:30.760 --> 00:39:32.910
observatories then find use in other


00:39:32.920 --> 00:39:34.870
areas you know I've got you know my


00:39:34.880 --> 00:39:37.589
pocket based fruit-based device my phone


00:39:37.599 --> 00:39:39.309
um other other brands are obviously


00:39:39.319 --> 00:39:41.710
available has a camera in it that when


00:39:41.720 --> 00:39:43.550
you take photos they're awesome and all


00:39:43.560 --> 00:39:45.510
the phone brands like this but the


00:39:45.520 --> 00:39:46.950
camera itself's terrible you know you


00:39:46.960 --> 00:39:49.030
look at the phone side on and you've got


00:39:49.040 --> 00:39:50.829
a tiny little light path to a sensor


00:39:50.839 --> 00:39:52.829
with mass-produced


00:39:52.839 --> 00:39:55.510
lenses the images that these phones make


00:39:55.520 --> 00:39:58.710
are actually absolutely got awful


00:39:58.720 --> 00:40:00.309
they're terrible images because the


00:40:00.319 --> 00:40:02.710
Optics is terrible because it's cheap


00:40:02.720 --> 00:40:06.349
reproducible very small but they're God


00:40:06.359 --> 00:40:09.030
awful in a very predictable way all the


00:40:09.040 --> 00:40:10.550
Optics have the same flaws from one


00:40:10.560 --> 00:40:12.750
front to the next which means in the


00:40:12.760 --> 00:40:15.630
camera software all of those flaws can


00:40:15.640 --> 00:40:18.270
be reverse managed out so you go from a


00:40:18.280 --> 00:40:21.510
blurry kind of you know hole of mirrors


00:40:21.520 --> 00:40:23.550
type experience to a beautiful image


00:40:23.560 --> 00:40:26.430
because it's reproducibly bad the


00:40:26.440 --> 00:40:28.069
detector in that pH on the software


00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:29.950
that's used for that image processing


00:40:29.960 --> 00:40:31.470
all of that stuff that we take so for


00:40:31.480 --> 00:40:33.430
granted in our pocket has come from


00:40:33.440 --> 00:40:35.510
astronomy research from the image


00:40:35.520 --> 00:40:36.910
processing and the Imaging that's done


00:40:36.920 --> 00:40:39.270
by astronomers and that's really why


00:40:39.280 --> 00:40:41.030
governments invested this for you and I


00:40:41.040 --> 00:40:43.470
and for bulk of the audience we just


00:40:43.480 --> 00:40:45.150
want we're just in it for the research


00:40:45.160 --> 00:40:47.710
and the excitement and the discoveries


00:40:47.720 --> 00:40:49.710
but for the people in power they see the


00:40:49.720 --> 00:40:51.670
benefits that this brings that are


00:40:51.680 --> 00:40:53.630
clearly very different to the scientific


00:40:53.640 --> 00:40:56.309
outcomes and that's why it gets funded


00:40:56.319 --> 00:40:57.829
and when you're passionate about


00:40:57.839 --> 00:40:59.190
something when you care you don't think


00:40:59.200 --> 00:41:01.510
about that narrative you just talk about


00:41:01.520 --> 00:41:03.829
the excitement and the wonder which is


00:41:03.839 --> 00:41:06.109
preaching to the converted but the


00:41:06.119 --> 00:41:07.910
skeptical person down the pub who wants


00:41:07.920 --> 00:41:09.510
to know where the tax dollars are going


00:41:09.520 --> 00:41:10.990
in a time when we've got a cost of


00:41:11.000 --> 00:41:13.309
living crisis telling them about the


00:41:13.319 --> 00:41:14.750
Wonder of science isn't going to win


00:41:14.760 --> 00:41:16.870
them over no telling them about the


00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:19.069
other benefits they'll understand and I


00:41:19.079 --> 00:41:20.230
think it's really important to have


00:41:20.240 --> 00:41:21.030
those


00:41:21.040 --> 00:41:22.870
discussions even if they're not the


00:41:22.880 --> 00:41:25.030
wonder that we all want to espouse and


00:41:25.040 --> 00:41:26.349
it's good to have the reality of the


00:41:26.359 --> 00:41:27.870
other benefits as well


00:41:27.880 --> 00:41:30.589
indeed yeah well said um there you go


00:41:30.599 --> 00:41:32.990
Lee uh probably not a James web Space


00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:36.430
Telescope 2 and three but I can tell you


00:41:36.440 --> 00:41:39.309
um for sure and jonty hinted at this


00:41:39.319 --> 00:41:43.510
over the next uh gosh well between now


00:41:43.520 --> 00:41:48.510
in 2051 and uh Beyond there are plans to


00:41:48.520 --> 00:41:54.270
launch 22 23 space telescopes so um they


00:41:54.280 --> 00:41:56.390
won't be James web they'll all have


00:41:56.400 --> 00:41:58.270
different tasks one of them will be


00:41:58.280 --> 00:42:01.069
studying gravitational waves um others


00:42:01.079 --> 00:42:04.150
will be looking at gamma rays um that


00:42:04.160 --> 00:42:06.910
the LI gos on but they are sorry oh


00:42:06.920 --> 00:42:08.390
there's exoplanets as well and there


00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:11.069
there's old yes and it's Jes web is a


00:42:11.079 --> 00:42:13.589
very um multi-use tool so it's good for


00:42:13.599 --> 00:42:15.390
everything but you quite often get more


00:42:15.400 --> 00:42:17.349
mileage by making a cheaper tool that's


00:42:17.359 --> 00:42:19.390
good for one thing yeah and a lot of


00:42:19.400 --> 00:42:20.750
these facilities are designed for a


00:42:20.760 --> 00:42:24.030
specific task yeah so in the coming few


00:42:24.040 --> 00:42:27.790
decades yeah 22 23 at least space


00:42:27.800 --> 00:42:29.750
telescopes are going to be launched so


00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:32.030
um it's it's not something that stopped


00:42:32.040 --> 00:42:34.829
at James web by any means what I make


00:42:34.839 --> 00:42:36.829
quickly on that topic is actually hop


00:42:36.839 --> 00:42:38.670
off one sot box and climb up on another


00:42:38.680 --> 00:42:42.990
one okay which is the challenge involved


00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:44.470
in this so you say you know next 20


00:42:44.480 --> 00:42:45.790
years we're talking about maybe another


00:42:45.800 --> 00:42:47.829
20 or 30 space telescopes Spar and we


00:42:47.839 --> 00:42:49.630
might get a bit more than that in


00:42:49.640 --> 00:42:52.589
actuality but one of the things uh


00:42:52.599 --> 00:42:54.589
silink proponents will often argue to


00:42:54.599 --> 00:42:56.069
astronomers when astronomers say oh no


00:42:56.079 --> 00:42:57.430
the sky is getting ruined and going to


00:42:57.440 --> 00:42:58.829
be damaging from Grand based Optical


00:42:58.839 --> 00:43:01.109
observatories it's just oh while Grand


00:43:01.119 --> 00:43:03.390
Bas observatories are obsolete anyway


00:43:03.400 --> 00:43:04.829
Elon Musk can just launch all your


00:43:04.839 --> 00:43:06.670
telescopes to space and that's a problem


00:43:06.680 --> 00:43:08.750
solved and it just doesn't work quite


00:43:08.760 --> 00:43:10.150
way I mean I did some reading around


00:43:10.160 --> 00:43:12.430
when this debate kicked up again there


00:43:12.440 --> 00:43:14.230
are more than


00:43:14.240 --> 00:43:16.390
10,000 professional groundbased


00:43:16.400 --> 00:43:18.910
astronomical telescopes on Earth that


00:43:18.920 --> 00:43:20.829
are doing research that roll over


00:43:20.839 --> 00:43:22.630
subscribed the smallest of them are


00:43:22.640 --> 00:43:23.950
things like up at our Observatory at


00:43:23.960 --> 00:43:25.950
Mount Kent at Mount Kent we've got more


00:43:25.960 --> 00:43:28.109
than a dozen telescopes all actively on


00:43:28.119 --> 00:43:30.030
Sky every night doing really good


00:43:30.040 --> 00:43:32.589
research and the smallest of them are


00:43:32.599 --> 00:43:35.069
are 70 CM telescopes we're involved in a


00:43:35.079 --> 00:43:37.589
space mission called twinkle twinkle is


00:43:37.599 --> 00:43:39.710
looking at putting a 70 CM telescope in


00:43:39.720 --> 00:43:41.990
orbit to do infrared observing and it's


00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:43.630
kind of crowd crowd sourcing it and


00:43:43.640 --> 00:43:45.030
building it off the shelf it's a new


00:43:45.040 --> 00:43:47.190
model of telescopes which makes it


00:43:47.200 --> 00:43:51.910
hugely cheaper that will cost 70


00:43:51.920 --> 00:43:55.150
million our 70 CM telescope on the


00:43:55.160 --> 00:43:56.750
ground cost us a quarter of a million


00:43:56.760 --> 00:43:58.390
dollar


00:43:58.400 --> 00:44:00.309
there is just not the money to reproduce


00:44:00.319 --> 00:44:02.829
what we've got on the ground in space


00:44:02.839 --> 00:44:04.470
there is also not the capacity to launch


00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:06.910
a really top end stuff you know the very


00:44:06.920 --> 00:44:09.309
Rubin Observatory is going to be an 8.3


00:44:09.319 --> 00:44:12.390
meter mirror with a 5.3 meter secondary


00:44:12.400 --> 00:44:15.030
crazy huge thing the biggest telescopes


00:44:15.040 --> 00:44:17.190
in building at the minute have nearly 40


00:44:17.200 --> 00:44:18.870
meter diameter mirrors there's just no


00:44:18.880 --> 00:44:21.150
way you could launch them though


00:44:21.160 --> 00:44:23.309
unfortunately it's a bit specious to


00:44:23.319 --> 00:44:24.950
come back and say we don't need to


00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:26.190
protect the night sky because you can


00:44:26.200 --> 00:44:27.990
just launch all the big up spair we


00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:30.150
can't afford to unfortunately though we


00:44:30.160 --> 00:44:31.630
need the grand B stuff as well and the


00:44:31.640 --> 00:44:34.190
grand B stuff does amazing work indeed


00:44:34.200 --> 00:44:38.390
it does yes um very well said again and


00:44:38.400 --> 00:44:40.670
Lee thanks for the question it certainly


00:44:40.680 --> 00:44:43.309
um sparked jonty into


00:44:43.319 --> 00:44:46.069
action um but uh yeah thanks uh for


00:44:46.079 --> 00:44:47.829
getting in touch with us Lee Lawrence


00:44:47.839 --> 00:44:50.589
renie and Christian who made up our


00:44:50.599 --> 00:44:54.109
panel today uh with our text questions


00:44:54.119 --> 00:44:56.589
uh thanks as always to you and if you've


00:44:56.599 --> 00:44:58.829
got questions for us uh don't forget to


00:44:58.839 --> 00:45:01.349
send them in Via our website because um


00:45:01.359 --> 00:45:02.589
that's the best way to get them through


00:45:02.599 --> 00:45:04.589
to us whether they're text or audio we


00:45:04.599 --> 00:45:06.990
take them all if you want to put a


00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:08.870
question on a paper airplane and just


00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:10.990
throw it it might get to us you never


00:45:11.000 --> 00:45:14.270
know uh and jonty as always thanks so


00:45:14.280 --> 00:45:16.790
much we'll catch up with you again next


00:45:16.800 --> 00:45:18.549
time looking forward to it thanks for


00:45:18.559 --> 00:45:20.109
having me and you know clear skies to


00:45:20.119 --> 00:45:22.870
everyone uh johy Horner professor of


00:45:22.880 --> 00:45:26.510
astrophysics uh sitting in for Fred on


00:45:26.520 --> 00:45:28.990
space nuts at the moment and thanks to H


00:45:29.000 --> 00:45:30.349
in the studio although he couldn't be


00:45:30.359 --> 00:45:32.750
with us today because uh he's actually


00:45:32.760 --> 00:45:34.950
waiting in line for his turn to use the


00:45:34.960 --> 00:45:37.470
James webp Space Telescope and from me


00:45:37.480 --> 00:45:39.230
Andrew Dunley thanks for your company


00:45:39.240 --> 00:45:40.430
we'll catch you on the next episode of


00:45:40.440 --> 00:45:43.670
Space Nuts bye-bye Space Nuts you'll be


00:45:43.680 --> 00:45:46.510
listening to the Space Nuts


00:45:46.520 --> 00:45:49.589
podcast available at Apple podcasts


00:45:49.599 --> 00:45:52.589
Spotify ihart radio or your favorite


00:45:52.599 --> 00:45:54.829
podcast player you can also stream on


00:45:54.839 --> 00:45:57.030
demand at bites.com


00:45:57.040 --> 00:45:58.950
this has been another quality podcast


00:45:58.960 --> 00:46:02.760
production from bts.com