Moon Mysteries, Hubble Tension & the Kuiper Belt’s Triple Surprise | Space Nuts: Astronomy...

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Kind: captions
Language: en

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Hello again, Andrew Dunley here from


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Space Nuts, where we talk astronomy and


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space science. Good to have your


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company. Coming up on this episode, we


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are going to talk about the moon. It's


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got a near side, it's got a far side,


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but we're going to talk about the


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inside. Uh, it's the discovery of the


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Grail mission. Uh, which means what


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we're talking about is a flesh wound.


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Uh, another Hubble tension, think about


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it, another Hubble tension theory, and


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we're talking evolution this time. And a


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triple system in the Kyper belt. So,


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buckle up for this episode of Space


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Nuts. 15 seconds. Guidance is internal.


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10 9 Ignition sequence start. Space


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Nuts. 5 4 3 2 1 2 3 4 5 2 1 Space Nuts.


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Astronauts report. It feels good. And


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back with us again is Professor Fred


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Watson, astronomer at large. Hello,


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Fred. Hello, Andrew. Hello. It took me a


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couple couple of seconds, but I did get


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the to get the um flesh flesh wound.


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Flesh wound the grail mission. It's only


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a flesh wound. It's only a flesh wound.


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That's right. Oh dear. No arms, no legs,


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but nothing flesh wound. That's a flesh


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wound. Um so yes, that I I can't help


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dad jokes and and and that I I when I do


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the presentations at golf on Fridays,


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which has become my job somehow, um I


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always have to finish on a dad joke.


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It's just become a thing. Yes. So, yes,


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I'm sure it has. The reputation


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continues to spread. Uh we'll be talking


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dad jokes in our next episode, our Q&A


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episode as well. Uh we should begin with


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this um Grail mission and the findings


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of the moon's unusual interior. This uh


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might come as a surprise to some


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people. Well, I think it does. Excuse


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me. I think it did come as a surprise


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when the discovery was made as well.


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These are um scientists from NASA and


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other


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institutions. Um yeah, let's do the dad


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joke first. The uh it's not Montipython


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and the Holy Grail.


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Uh GRA stands for gravity recovery and


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interior laboratory. Uh and it was a


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mission uh which I guess it was more


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than it's probably a decade ago. Um uh


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it's a very very neat uh piece of


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research and NASA you know the clever


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stuff that they do is just unbelievable.


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Uh so what do you do if you want to


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sense the gravity of um a planet that


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you're flying over? you want to map out


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the gravitational details and by doing


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that you can work out what's underneath


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the surface uh because that's usually


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what affects the gravity above the


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surface of a of a of a planet and I'm


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talking now about you know really minor


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minor um um differences and


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discrepancies in in gravity uh how the


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Grail mission worked uh and I'm kind of


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casting my memory back now um two


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spacecraft uh in orbit around the moon


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separate in the same they're both in the


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same orbit. They were separated I think


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by about 200 kilometers one in front of


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the other but the distance between them


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could be detected by microwave


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transmission to well under a millimeter.


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I can't remember what it was. It was a


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few microns I think. Uh but this tiny


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tiny difference between the position of


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the two spacecraft, you can measure it


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uh by these microwave signals. And so as


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the two spacecraft go around the moon,


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their separation changes slightly as a


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result of the gravitational


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gravitational pull of the terrain


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beneath them. Uh and it actually is uh


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uh a really very sensitive way. I love


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the fact that they rediscovered uh


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something that we talked about in the


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very earliest uh history of moon


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exploration back in the uh Geminy and


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Apollo era back in the 19 uh60s uh


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masscons which were mass concentrations


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concentrations of mass that were


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unexpected underneath the moon's


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surface. They were actually measured


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just by spacecraft that were orbiting


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single spacecraft orbiting uh the moon.


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Uh but uh Gra actually mapped them out


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in much more detail. We know a lot more


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about these maskons now than we did


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before. Uh but what has happened uh uh


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and by the way I should just mention one


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uh I should have put this in as a as a


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quirky factoid, shouldn't I? Philippant


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factoid that the two uh spacecraft, the


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two components of Grail, do you remember


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what they were called?


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Oh no. Eb and flow. Uh, and it ca I


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think it was school kids who did that.


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If I remember rightly, NASA sent out a


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competition saying we've got two


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spacecraft in orbit around the moon.


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What do you want to call them? And they


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were called eb and flow. Uh, which is


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very very nice indeed. Anyway, eb and


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flow uh in combination uh measured uh


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virtually the gravitational map of the


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whole moon. But what has come to light


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is something a little bit more subtle.


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uh these uh researchers who've now used


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these NASA data to deduce that there's a


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2 to


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3% difference in the ability of the


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lunar mantle. Now that's the layer below


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the crust. That's the layer that


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surrounds the core of the moon. The


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ability of the mantle to deform. So what


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you're saying is there's a difference in


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sort of flexibility from one side of the


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moon to the other. And remember as we


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know the moon always faces the same side


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to earth. Uh and so that's you know


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there's a different gravitational pull


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on one side from what there is on the


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other. Um but what they've interpreted


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this difference as being they say it's


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symptomatic. the fact that there's this


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difference in the moon's mantle's


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ability to to deform, to change its


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shape. Uh they say that is best


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explained by the temperature inside the


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mantle on the near side being as much as


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170° C hotter than what it is on the


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other side. Wow. The side facing us.


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Yeah, it is. It's not a small amount.


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It's not a few degrees. It's a lot. Um,


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and and it's enough to change the


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viscosity of the mantle. Uh, how


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flexible it is. Uh, and so that's the


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new finding that's come from Eb and


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flow. And I think what they're saying is


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that the spacecraft was in orbit for


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long enough that it could detect


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differences in the gravitational pull.


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As it flew over the same part of the


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moon more than once, it could see a


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difference in the gravitational pull


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from one trip to another. So there's a


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time dependent thing on it and that's


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how they know about the moon's ability


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to deform. I'm actually interpreting


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that in my own way. This there's a a


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nice paper in Nature magazine perhaps


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the one of the two leading journals for


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science in the world which has the title


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of thermal asymmetry in the moon's


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mantle inferred from monthly tidal


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response. Okay. So my question straight


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up is could that explain or does that


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explain why the near side and the far


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side of the moon are so very different


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uh when you're talking topography? Yeah,


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I I think it's the other way around. I


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suspect the difference in topography is


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uh what causes the difference. Although


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they're probably all mish mish mashed up


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um


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into the same sort of thing, but the the


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moon's near side um I think you probably


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the way you've put it actually Andrew is


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probably more correct. The moon's near


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side uh has had much more volcanic


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activity than the far side. This is


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between three and four billion years


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ago. It was highly volcanically active,


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which is why we've got all these lava


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flows on the near side, which we see as


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the maria, the gray the gray patches on


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the moon. Um, but the the details of


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what these researchers think con


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contributes to the the difference in


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temperature. Uh, they suggest I might


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actually I think this is nature's press


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release, so I might just read straight


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from it. Um uh they hypothesize that


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this thermal difference could be


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sustained by radioactive decay of


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thorium and titanium within the moon's


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near side which could be a remnant of


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the volcanic activity that formed the


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near side surface 3 to four billion


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years ago.


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That is really interesting. Yeah, it's I


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I'm fascinated fascinated by a couple of


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things that we're using old data to make


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new discoveries. We've talked about that


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in other uh studies that have or papers


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that have been released in recent years.


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Uh also the fact that um there's effects


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on the moon that we see in other parts


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of the solar system um with with


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variations in uh the way the moons uh


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interact with their host planet for


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example. I suppose it's a similar


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situation is it not? Yes, that's right.


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So you've got um and in fact most of


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these moons around the certainly the


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giant planets are uh which is where most


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of the moons in the solar system are u


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there's only three on the in the inner


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solar system ours and Mars is two little


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little satellites but places like


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Enceladus Ganymede perhaps Kalisto uh


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Europa around Jupiter perhaps Titan as


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well um they they


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uh could do use this technology ology to


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actually interpret what's going on


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inside these worlds without having to


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land a spacecraft on the surface. That's


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the that's the the great thing because


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putting something into orbit around


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Enceladus for example um would be much


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more straightforward, much less energy


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hungry than putting a spacecraft down


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onto the surface where you've got all


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the risks of collisions and tipping over


00:10:37.519 --> 00:10:39.590
like several of the Luna probes have


00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:41.990
done. They've fallen over. Yeah. Uh all


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of that is the hazard when you're


00:10:44.640 --> 00:10:46.310
landing something on the surface. So


00:10:46.320 --> 00:10:48.630
yeah, I um I think it's a it's got a


00:10:48.640 --> 00:10:52.230
future now. Um you can as I kind of


00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:53.990
mentioned earlier, you can do some of


00:10:54.000 --> 00:10:56.310
this kind of work with a single


00:10:56.320 --> 00:10:58.470
spacecraft, but if you can launch two


00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:00.710
with this microwave microwave bridge


00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:02.710
between them, then you can do much much


00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:06.069
more as as the the Grail spacecraft


00:11:06.079 --> 00:11:09.269
demonstrated. Okay. So um yeah, the moon


00:11:09.279 --> 00:11:11.829
is not as it seems, at least on not on


00:11:11.839 --> 00:11:14.870
the inside. Well, no, that's right. Or


00:11:14.880 --> 00:11:17.190
maybe maybe it is as it seems because


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the two sides are so different when you


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look at them. As you said, the top the


00:11:21.680 --> 00:11:23.670
topography is quite different from one


00:11:23.680 --> 00:11:25.350
side to the other. Yeah, it's a great


00:11:25.360 --> 00:11:27.670
story. If you'd like to read up on that,


00:11:27.680 --> 00:11:29.430
uh you can well you can go find the


00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:30.870
paper if you can remember the title of


00:11:30.880 --> 00:11:32.310
it cuz it's got more more than three


00:11:32.320 --> 00:11:34.790
words in it. So I'm stuffed. But uh


00:11:34.800 --> 00:11:37.910
yeah, daily galaxy.com is the website.


00:11:37.920 --> 00:11:39.150
daily


00:11:39.160 --> 00:11:41.509
galaxy.com. This is Space Nuts with


00:11:41.519 --> 00:11:47.110
Andrew Dunley and Professor Fred Watson.


00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:52.949
Three, two, one. Space Nuts. Um, Fred, I


00:11:52.959 --> 00:11:55.269
neglected to mention my office


00:11:55.279 --> 00:11:57.509
background at the beginning. Uh, if I


00:11:57.519 --> 00:11:59.269
just put my thumb over the camera,


00:11:59.279 --> 00:12:02.310
people on YouTube will see a massive


00:12:02.320 --> 00:12:04.470
mountain there. That's the Fugo volcano


00:12:04.480 --> 00:12:06.710
in Guatemala. I took that photo on the


00:12:06.720 --> 00:12:10.389
7th of April. And uh Judy and I have a


00:12:10.399 --> 00:12:12.150
history of visiting volcanoes, getting


00:12:12.160 --> 00:12:13.750
home, and then finding out they started


00:12:13.760 --> 00:12:15.430
erupting. And that's exactly what's


00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:17.670
happened with Fugo. So if you're on


00:12:17.680 --> 00:12:19.350
YouTube and you're watching us when


00:12:19.360 --> 00:12:21.190
we're finished, go and have a look at


00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:23.350
some of the eruption footage from the


00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:25.829
Fugo volcano in Guatemala at the moment.


00:12:25.839 --> 00:12:28.389
It is spectacular. We had to drive


00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:31.910
between three volcanoes to get to the


00:12:31.920 --> 00:12:34.870
township of Antigua. And you could see


00:12:34.880 --> 00:12:37.350
these things for miles. I mean, they're


00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:39.949
strata volcanoes. They are absolutely


00:12:39.959 --> 00:12:43.430
enormous. They're around 12, 13,000 ft


00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:47.269
at the peak above sea level. Um, and


00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:49.590
they are spectacular. And we literally


00:12:49.600 --> 00:12:51.670
had to drive between two of them to get


00:12:51.680 --> 00:12:54.470
to the town. That one was on our left


00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:57.829
and the Awa volcano was on our right.


00:12:57.839 --> 00:12:59.750
Uh, and the town is in the foothills of


00:12:59.760 --> 00:13:03.590
the um the two nearest volcanoes. And


00:13:03.600 --> 00:13:06.230
it's just an awe inspiring site. But um


00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:08.069
I just thought it was funny that um well


00:13:08.079 --> 00:13:10.470
maybe not funny haha but funny that we


00:13:10.480 --> 00:13:13.430
went to Hawaii got home and Kilawea


00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:15.910
erupted. Happens a lot. Uh went to


00:13:15.920 --> 00:13:18.949
Vanuatu Mount Yasa got home it erupted


00:13:18.959 --> 00:13:20.790
and stopped air traffic for a couple of


00:13:20.800 --> 00:13:22.870
weeks and now this one's erupting a


00:13:22.880 --> 00:13:25.030
month after we were there. So we're not


00:13:25.040 --> 00:13:26.949
going to be invited back I don't think.


00:13:26.959 --> 00:13:30.150
But uh Fugo's got a history though. It


00:13:30.160 --> 00:13:32.150
erupts quite often. But I just thought


00:13:32.160 --> 00:13:33.750
people would be interested to see a


00:13:33.760 --> 00:13:35.990
photo of it. Uh, as you know, I'm a


00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:38.230
volcano junkie.


00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:40.150
So, when we were in Iceland earlier in


00:13:40.160 --> 00:13:43.670
the year, uh, the Rakenis Peninsula had


00:13:43.680 --> 00:13:46.470
just erupted as well. Yeah. Well, here


00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:48.230
there was a lot of steam coming up from


00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:49.990
uh from the, you know, the fishes in the


00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:52.150
ground. Yeah. In the next few months,


00:13:52.160 --> 00:13:55.030
we'll be v visiting the Canary Islands.


00:13:55.040 --> 00:13:58.470
Ah, so yeah. So, that one's got an


00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:00.230
active volcano. And we're visiting


00:14:00.240 --> 00:14:04.470
Iceland as well. Um, yeah. could could


00:14:04.480 --> 00:14:07.750
have some stories to tell. Yeah, could.


00:14:07.760 --> 00:14:09.430
Okay, Fred, let's move on to our next


00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:13.509
story. And this one is about yet again


00:14:13.519 --> 00:14:17.509
uh the Hubble tension, the the quirk of


00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:20.790
uh space that we can't quite get our


00:14:20.800 --> 00:14:22.550
heads around. We can't solve the


00:14:22.560 --> 00:14:24.949
differentials or the problems. Many are


00:14:24.959 --> 00:14:27.910
saying, look, it's it's natural, but uh


00:14:27.920 --> 00:14:30.870
now another another Hubble tension


00:14:30.880 --> 00:14:33.829
theory. G, that's hard to say. um is uh


00:14:33.839 --> 00:14:36.310
is making its way into various papers.


00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:38.870
Uh one in particular, I suspect because


00:14:38.880 --> 00:14:42.590
um now they're talking about um


00:14:42.600 --> 00:14:46.150
evolution in dark matter. This sounds


00:14:46.160 --> 00:14:49.990
like pie in the sky type stuff, but um


00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:51.590
we've got to we've got to come up with


00:14:51.600 --> 00:14:53.910
answers. The only way is is to publish


00:14:53.920 --> 00:14:57.509
papers with theories and, you know, toss


00:14:57.519 --> 00:14:59.590
it around.


00:14:59.600 --> 00:15:02.550
Indeed. That's right. like like a salad.


00:15:02.560 --> 00:15:04.110
A space


00:15:04.120 --> 00:15:05.790
salad.


00:15:05.800 --> 00:15:08.710
Um yeah, I've just um I'm I'm hesitating


00:15:08.720 --> 00:15:10.150
because I've just seen who one of the


00:15:10.160 --> 00:15:13.750
authors of this paper is.


00:15:13.760 --> 00:15:16.870
Uh it's a scientist who's known for


00:15:16.880 --> 00:15:20.629
provocative papers. He's Avi Lurb and


00:15:20.639 --> 00:15:23.590
he's at Harvard Smithsonian


00:15:23.600 --> 00:15:27.670
uh um center for astrophysics. So, uh,


00:15:27.680 --> 00:15:29.269
the the paper that we're talking about


00:15:29.279 --> 00:15:31.670
is called evolving dark energy or


00:15:31.680 --> 00:15:33.230
evolving dark


00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:36.870
matter. Um, and, uh, it is, this is


00:15:36.880 --> 00:15:39.509
really esoteric stuff, Andrew. We're


00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:40.870
always when we're talking about this


00:15:40.880 --> 00:15:44.870
stuff, we're we're just glossing over uh


00:15:44.880 --> 00:15:48.230
a lot of really detailed


00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:51.670
uh science that uh it goes into realms


00:15:51.680 --> 00:15:54.629
that um even I struggle with and I'm not


00:15:54.639 --> 00:15:57.110
actually a cosmologist, which is why,


00:15:57.120 --> 00:15:58.949
but I'm supposed to know my way around


00:15:58.959 --> 00:16:01.670
some of these topics uh better than


00:16:01.680 --> 00:16:05.990
perhaps the person in the street is. Um


00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:09.509
and it's uh it's this comes down to


00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:11.030
something called the equation of state


00:16:11.040 --> 00:16:13.350
which you and I haven't talked about but


00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:16.389
the equation of state is a parameter in


00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:18.230
the universe or it's a parameter


00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:21.030
generally it comes from thermodynamics


00:16:21.040 --> 00:16:25.389
uh where which essentially um


00:16:25.399 --> 00:16:28.470
characterizes as the name almost implies


00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:31.189
it characterizes the overall behavior of


00:16:31.199 --> 00:16:33.749
the universe the equation of state okay


00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:36.430
symbolized by the the character


00:16:36.440 --> 00:16:37.949
W.


00:16:37.959 --> 00:16:42.150
Um, so, uh, the the the work that's


00:16:42.160 --> 00:16:45.189
being reported here, uh, and as I've


00:16:45.199 --> 00:16:49.030
said, it's on a on a there's a there's a


00:16:49.040 --> 00:16:52.069
basically a a pre-print, as we used to


00:16:52.079 --> 00:16:55.030
call them. Uh this is a a paper that's


00:16:55.040 --> 00:16:59.269
not yet been refereed uh which is going


00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:02.790
to go into I can't see what journal it's


00:17:02.800 --> 00:17:08.630
aiming for but uh it is called uh


00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:10.549
essentially the the title of the paper


00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:12.309
evolving dark energy or evolving dark


00:17:12.319 --> 00:17:14.390
matter. I'm going to read you the the


00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:18.150
abstract. Okay. um because that kind of


00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:20.870
tells the story even if you don't know


00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:24.470
what the details are. We show that the


00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:26.949
latest empirical constraints on


00:17:26.959 --> 00:17:30.070
cosmology and by that they mean measured


00:17:30.080 --> 00:17:32.310
uh from a combination of DESI that's the


00:17:32.320 --> 00:17:35.430
dark energy survey instrument CMBB


00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:37.270
that's the cosmic microwave background


00:17:37.280 --> 00:17:40.310
and supernova data that's exploding


00:17:40.320 --> 00:17:42.190
stars they've taken all this data


00:17:42.200 --> 00:17:44.950
together the empirical constraints on


00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:47.350
cosmology from that combination can be


00:17:47.360 --> 00:17:50.710
accounted for if a small component of


00:17:50.720 --> 00:17:54.510
dark matter has an evolving and


00:17:54.520 --> 00:17:57.590
oscillating equation of state within the


00:17:57.600 --> 00:17:59.990
range minus one is greater than less


00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:02.549
than w which is less than one. That's


00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:05.190
the range minus1 to 1 is somewhere where


00:18:05.200 --> 00:18:08.310
this equation of state parameter w lies.


00:18:08.320 --> 00:18:10.390
From a fundamental physics perspective,


00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:13.029
this interpretation is more appealing


00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:15.669
than an evolving phantom dark energy


00:18:15.679 --> 00:18:18.789
with w less than minus one which


00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:22.230
violates the null energy condition. So


00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:25.870
the in a sense this paper is kind of in


00:18:25.880 --> 00:18:28.549
response to what we're seeing from the


00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:31.190
latest data actually from DESI the dark


00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:36.070
energy survey um which suggests that


00:18:36.080 --> 00:18:40.549
dark energy is uh getting less or at


00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:41.990
least what it suggests is the


00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:44.710
acceleration of the universe's expansion


00:18:44.720 --> 00:18:47.029
is getting less. In other words, the


00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:49.110
expansion, which we know is accelerating


00:18:49.120 --> 00:18:51.190
because that's been well measured, but


00:18:51.200 --> 00:18:54.150
the suggestion is that that acceleration


00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:57.190
is slowing down. So, as time goes on, it


00:18:57.200 --> 00:19:00.150
will be accelerating at a lower rate.


00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:02.950
What they're saying is uh when you look


00:19:02.960 --> 00:19:05.830
at the sort of theory that doesn't make


00:19:05.840 --> 00:19:08.870
sense, but it makes more sense if


00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:12.470
something is going on with dark matter.


00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:16.350
that dark matter is um is it self


00:19:16.360 --> 00:19:20.630
evolving. Now that suggests and they


00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:22.310
apparently explore this in the paper. I


00:19:22.320 --> 00:19:24.150
haven't read the paper but they they


00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:26.630
explore this that suggests that dark


00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:29.190
matter is something different from what


00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:31.270
we think it is because we imagine dark


00:19:31.280 --> 00:19:34.870
matter as being some subatomic particle


00:19:34.880 --> 00:19:37.190
uh which is as yet unknown which does


00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:39.270
not interact with normal matter at all


00:19:39.280 --> 00:19:42.470
which is why we can't see it. uh and all


00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:44.870
it reveals itself by is its gravity.


00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:46.950
That's that's the parameters that we


00:19:46.960 --> 00:19:48.950
understand dark matter to be. But what


00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:52.150
they're suggestion suggesting is that


00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:55.350
this is something even more exotic than


00:19:55.360 --> 00:19:57.750
we have been imagining


00:19:57.760 --> 00:20:01.669
uh because its parameters change its


00:20:01.679 --> 00:20:04.630
phenomena change uh and that leads to a


00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:07.830
changed equation of state the the W


00:20:07.840 --> 00:20:09.950
parameter.


00:20:09.960 --> 00:20:14.070
So, and and they they actually uh


00:20:14.080 --> 00:20:16.549
suggest that actually there's there's


00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:18.630
some sort of oscillation going on in it


00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:20.789
as well, not just dark matter. Uh


00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:22.470
there's a very nice article on


00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:24.630
physicsf.org


00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:28.149
uh by Brian Kerbaline. Uh I'm going to


00:20:28.159 --> 00:20:32.190
read a par a paragraph for it.


00:20:32.200 --> 00:20:34.950
Um in fact, I'm going to read a couple.


00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:37.990
Let me just uh let me just read from


00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:39.270
this because I think that's going to


00:20:39.280 --> 00:20:42.230
explain it better than me waffling on.


00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:44.310
Uh in work published on the archive


00:20:44.320 --> 00:20:46.070
preprint server, the authors look at


00:20:46.080 --> 00:20:48.230
both evolving dark energy and evolving


00:20:48.240 --> 00:20:51.029
dark matter and argue that the latter is


00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:52.870
a much better fit to the observational


00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:54.470
data. The first thing they note is that


00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:56.070
the two models are somewhat related


00:20:56.080 --> 00:20:58.549
since the evolution of the cosmos


00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:00.549
depends in part on the ratio of dark


00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:03.430
energy to matter density. A model with


00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:05.350
constant dark matter, which is what we


00:21:05.360 --> 00:21:07.590
have at the moment, an evolving dark


00:21:07.600 --> 00:21:10.710
energy, uh, will always appear similar


00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:13.029
to a model with evolving dark matter and


00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:15.110
a constant dark energy. It's a good


00:21:15.120 --> 00:21:17.270
point. They then go on to explore the


00:21:17.280 --> 00:21:19.430
idea of some kind of exotic dark matter,


00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:21.270
one that has a changeable equation of


00:21:21.280 --> 00:21:23.430
state. To match observation, the dark


00:21:23.440 --> 00:21:26.230
matter equation of state must oscillate


00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:29.270
in time. This isn't an outlandish


00:21:29.280 --> 00:21:31.190
notion.


00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:32.390
I think they're trying to convince us


00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:35.669
here in space.org. Yeah. Neutrinos have


00:21:35.679 --> 00:21:37.909
mass and don't interact strongly with


00:21:37.919 --> 00:21:39.669
light. While they can't account for all


00:21:39.679 --> 00:21:41.510
the dark matter in the universe, they


00:21:41.520 --> 00:21:43.669
are a form of hot dark matter and


00:21:43.679 --> 00:21:47.110
neutrinos undergo mass oscillation.


00:21:47.120 --> 00:21:49.510
Perhaps cold and dark matter particles


00:21:49.520 --> 00:21:51.750
undergo sorry perhaps cold dark matter


00:21:51.760 --> 00:21:54.430
particles undergo a similar


00:21:54.440 --> 00:21:58.310
oilitary effect. The authors find that


00:21:58.320 --> 00:22:00.470
the best fit to observational data is a


00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:02.789
universe where about 15% of the cold


00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:05.830
dark matter is oscillatory and the


00:22:05.840 --> 00:22:09.590
remaining 85% is standard dark matter.


00:22:09.600 --> 00:22:11.830
This would allow for the Hubble tension


00:22:11.840 --> 00:22:14.390
to be covered while still matching the


00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:17.510
dark matter observations we have. And I


00:22:17.520 --> 00:22:19.669
love the last paragraph. Yeah, I do too.


00:22:19.679 --> 00:22:21.669
I was just reading it. It should be


00:22:21.679 --> 00:22:24.310
stressed that this work presents a toy


00:22:24.320 --> 00:22:26.710
model. As the authors themselves note,


00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:28.310
the work is a broad concept that does


00:22:28.320 --> 00:22:30.070
not pin down specific constraints for


00:22:30.080 --> 00:22:31.669
dark matter particles, but the work does


00:22:31.679 --> 00:22:33.430
open the door to a broader range of dark


00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:35.990
matter models. At this point, evolving


00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:37.669
dark matter is worth considering. Well,


00:22:37.679 --> 00:22:39.590
I agree with that. I think everything's


00:22:39.600 --> 00:22:41.270
worth calling. I was going to ask you


00:22:41.280 --> 00:22:43.350
where you stand on this, and if it's


00:22:43.360 --> 00:22:45.750
worth considering, then obviously it is.


00:22:45.760 --> 00:22:49.549
But uh it just adds another


00:22:49.559 --> 00:22:52.310
potential explanation of something we


00:22:52.320 --> 00:22:55.909
know very little about and Yep. And we


00:22:55.919 --> 00:22:58.390
worry about a lot especially on space


00:22:58.400 --> 00:23:00.630
nuts. Yes. Yes. And we get a lot of


00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:02.870
questions about it and so a lot of


00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:05.669
people thinking about this stuff if it's


00:23:05.679 --> 00:23:08.390
if it's in fact stuff. Yes. Well, yes,


00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:09.430
that's right. It could could be


00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:11.830
something other than stuff. Yes. Yes. So


00:23:11.840 --> 00:23:14.630
um yeah, it's a a really interesting


00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:17.669
idea and well I suppose uh it'll get


00:23:17.679 --> 00:23:19.190
tossed around and people will come up


00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:21.350
with other explanations. But the thing


00:23:21.360 --> 00:23:24.789
is a paper like this even if it's wrong


00:23:24.799 --> 00:23:27.510
may spawn a level of thinking that might


00:23:27.520 --> 00:23:28.950
send us down a path where we might


00:23:28.960 --> 00:23:30.630
eventually figure it out. I mean that's


00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:33.510
another possibility. Uh that's that's


00:23:33.520 --> 00:23:36.390
true. That's correct. Uh that's and and


00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:38.070
that's the way science works as well.


00:23:38.080 --> 00:23:40.070
Exactly as you said. Yes indeed. All


00:23:40.080 --> 00:23:43.029
right. Uh, as Fred said, you can read


00:23:43.039 --> 00:23:45.750
all about it at the fizz.org website.


00:23:45.760 --> 00:23:47.149
That's


00:23:47.159 --> 00:23:49.590
phys.org. Or you can read the published


00:23:49.600 --> 00:23:52.230
paper on the archive reprint server if


00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:54.470
you like. This is Space Nuts. Andrew


00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:58.710
Dunley here, Fred Watson there.


00:23:58.720 --> 00:24:00.870
Okay, we checked all four systems and


00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:03.830
being with the Space Nuts. Our final


00:24:03.840 --> 00:24:07.190
topic today, Fred, uh is a really


00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:10.149
interesting one and it is going to take


00:24:10.159 --> 00:24:13.110
us to the Kyper belt. So, uh tighten up


00:24:13.120 --> 00:24:15.590
your buckle and get ready for this one


00:24:15.600 --> 00:24:18.390
because we think there has been


00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:21.029
discovered a triple system in the Kyper


00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:23.909
belt. Now, when we talk about the Kyper


00:24:23.919 --> 00:24:26.230
belt, we don't really we've we've only


00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:29.269
been there a couple of times, um, fairly


00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:31.190
recent missions in the last decade or


00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:34.390
so, but we've only had, uh, close-up


00:24:34.400 --> 00:24:37.190
observations of two objects in the Kyper


00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:40.950
belt. So, this discovery was actually


00:24:40.960 --> 00:24:44.230
made not by either of those probes, but


00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:47.750
or or the probe in question. Um, it was


00:24:47.760 --> 00:24:50.390
made from Earth. Am I correct? Yes,


00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:53.510
that's right. uh using the Hubble Space


00:24:53.520 --> 00:24:58.149
Telescope. Yeah. Which is um you know


00:24:58.159 --> 00:25:01.830
still going strong and um still a


00:25:01.840 --> 00:25:04.029
fantastic resource


00:25:04.039 --> 00:25:08.310
uh given that it's now 35 years in


00:25:08.320 --> 00:25:11.669
space. Yes, it is amazing. That's right.


00:25:11.679 --> 00:25:14.549
Uh so um and again this is a team of


00:25:14.559 --> 00:25:16.630
researchers from NASA. Um what they've


00:25:16.640 --> 00:25:19.269
been doing is looking through uh Hubble


00:25:19.279 --> 00:25:22.470
telescope data at this very distant


00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:26.310
object uh which is uh it's a an


00:25:26.320 --> 00:25:28.750
asteroid. So it's got a number


00:25:28.760 --> 00:25:32.149
148780. Uh and it's known as Aljira. Uh


00:25:32.159 --> 00:25:38.070
that's its name. Uh and they they they


00:25:38.080 --> 00:25:41.350
haven't seen the three bodies that they


00:25:41.360 --> 00:25:43.430
now think make it up, but they've seen


00:25:43.440 --> 00:25:45.909
two. Wait for it. Dad joke coming. Oh,


00:25:45.919 --> 00:25:48.549
good. Okay. They've seen two of them. I


00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:49.830
was going So, they haven't seen the


00:25:49.840 --> 00:25:52.230
three bodies. That's a problem. Oh,


00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:57.350
there we go. Gosh. Love it. Love it.


00:25:57.360 --> 00:25:59.430
I I don't understand. You must rehearse


00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:01.350
our conversations weeks in advance,


00:26:01.360 --> 00:26:04.070
Andrew, to get No, this the scary part


00:26:04.080 --> 00:26:07.909
is this garbage just pops in there. Yes.


00:26:07.919 --> 00:26:10.630
At random moments. It used to happen


00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:12.470
when I was on the radio. I'd just be


00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:14.710
talking about something in this in a


00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:16.230
little voice and go, "Hey, tell this


00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:18.630
joke." Yeah. And then at the end of it,


00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:20.230
you think, "God, I wish I hadn't told


00:26:20.240 --> 00:26:22.950
God, I wish I hadn't said that." Yeah.


00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:28.230
Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, um uh so it's uh it


00:26:28.240 --> 00:26:31.909
it basically is uh new research and so


00:26:31.919 --> 00:26:34.470
so they can see two they can detect that


00:26:34.480 --> 00:26:35.870
there are two


00:26:35.880 --> 00:26:38.950
objects orbiting one another. I see the


00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:40.310
butt.


00:26:40.320 --> 00:26:44.149
The the butt is Yes. Yes. Um the butt is


00:26:44.159 --> 00:26:46.230
that it looks as though one of them is


00:26:46.240 --> 00:26:48.390
actually a pair of objects. That's the


00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:52.310
trick. So we've got two things that have


00:26:52.320 --> 00:26:55.909
been seen, but one of them is probably a


00:26:55.919 --> 00:27:00.149
double. And they've had to use the very


00:27:00.159 --> 00:27:04.950
detailed uh measurements of the way the


00:27:04.960 --> 00:27:07.029
object that they can see orbits the


00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:09.430
other one. the way that that orbit


00:27:09.440 --> 00:27:12.590
changes uh that is what tells you that


00:27:12.600 --> 00:27:15.269
the central object if I can put it that


00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:18.950
way might actually be two um and so it's


00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:22.070
the the outer object uh its orbit


00:27:22.080 --> 00:27:25.750
changes over time and it's that change


00:27:25.760 --> 00:27:28.710
uh that allows the deduction that the


00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:32.350
central object if I put it that way


00:27:32.360 --> 00:27:35.830
is it well they say it's either


00:27:35.840 --> 00:27:38.630
extremely elongated or it's two separate


00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:41.909
objects and that um you know the odds


00:27:41.919 --> 00:27:44.950
are that it is actually probably two. Uh


00:27:44.960 --> 00:27:47.750
often though we've got this situation


00:27:47.760 --> 00:27:51.230
especially with these um distant


00:27:51.240 --> 00:27:54.310
asteroids where you have clearly


00:27:54.320 --> 00:27:56.870
something that has been a binary two


00:27:56.880 --> 00:27:58.710
objects in orbit around one another but


00:27:58.720 --> 00:28:02.149
they've gradually uh collapsed together


00:28:02.159 --> 00:28:04.870
not in a violent way and wound up in


00:28:04.880 --> 00:28:06.789
contact which is something we call


00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:09.350
believe it or not a contact binary and


00:28:09.360 --> 00:28:12.149
Aricoth uh it's one of the Kyper belt


00:28:12.159 --> 00:28:14.230
objects that you actually just refer


00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:15.990
referred to. It's beyond the orbit of


00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:18.470
Pluto. It was visited by New Horizons.


00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:20.149
Uh when we saw it, it looked like a


00:28:20.159 --> 00:28:22.070
snowman and that was very seasonal


00:28:22.080 --> 00:28:23.669
because I think it was Christmas time


00:28:23.679 --> 00:28:26.149
when it was uh when it was discovered.


00:28:26.159 --> 00:28:29.269
But the analysis of New Horizon's data


00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:31.909
as it flew past Aracoth showed that it


00:28:31.919 --> 00:28:33.430
wasn't actually two balls joined


00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:34.950
together. It was two pancakes joined


00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:37.750
together uh rimto- rim. Uh so that it


00:28:37.760 --> 00:28:39.350
actually looked like a snowman, but from


00:28:39.360 --> 00:28:40.950
the edge on it, it looked a lot more


00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:43.669
like two pancakes stuck together. Uh but


00:28:43.679 --> 00:28:45.830
that's a common phenomenon. Two objects,


00:28:45.840 --> 00:28:47.909
whatever their shape is, coming together


00:28:47.919 --> 00:28:51.269
gently and actually um basically


00:28:51.279 --> 00:28:52.950
cementing themselves together just by


00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:54.630
gravity, but then the sort of gap


00:28:54.640 --> 00:28:56.549
between them fills in and you end up


00:28:56.559 --> 00:28:58.630
with something that looks like a peanut.


00:28:58.640 --> 00:29:02.230
Uh, so I think it's still possible that


00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:05.430
Algeria could have that sort of shape,


00:29:05.440 --> 00:29:08.470
but they actually say the the research


00:29:08.480 --> 00:29:11.190
team who's done this, they say that the


00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:13.630
triple system actually fits the data


00:29:13.640 --> 00:29:17.430
best. Um, it fits it better than a


00:29:17.440 --> 00:29:20.070
contact binary or a really elongated


00:29:20.080 --> 00:29:22.789
central object. So triple system is what


00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:26.149
we believe it is. Uh it's a very nice


00:29:26.159 --> 00:29:28.549
target for a future mission to the outer


00:29:28.559 --> 00:29:30.070
solar system, but that's not going to


00:29:30.080 --> 00:29:32.870
happen anytime soon. No. Uh but yeah, so


00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:35.029
um very nice discovery. Triple systems


00:29:35.039 --> 00:29:37.909
are rare. That's why that's why it's uh


00:29:37.919 --> 00:29:39.590
you know, it's making the headlines.


00:29:39.600 --> 00:29:42.230
These are rare phenomena. Binaries are


00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:44.310
very common. In fact, probably most


00:29:44.320 --> 00:29:46.310
objects out there in this outer solar


00:29:46.320 --> 00:29:48.070
system might be binaries, but triple


00:29:48.080 --> 00:29:51.750
systems are rare. Uh interestingly this


00:29:51.760 --> 00:29:54.149
um rock if you want to call it that or


00:29:54.159 --> 00:29:57.269
or it system Algera is much much bigger


00:29:57.279 --> 00:30:01.350
than Araoth. It's uh about 124 miles


00:30:01.360 --> 00:30:03.590
wide or 200 kilometers. That that's a


00:30:03.600 --> 00:30:06.070
big chunk. Yes it is. Yeah it's a lot a


00:30:06.080 --> 00:30:08.149
lot more substantial than Aricoth which


00:30:08.159 --> 00:30:09.590
was only if I remember right it was less


00:30:09.600 --> 00:30:11.990
than a kilometer I think. Uh it's


00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:14.070
amazing that they found it at all to to


00:30:14.080 --> 00:30:16.149
give it give New Horizons a target


00:30:16.159 --> 00:30:18.389
beyond Pluto.


00:30:18.399 --> 00:30:21.029
Yeah. Um, yeah, as you say, we're


00:30:21.039 --> 00:30:22.149
probably not going to go back out there


00:30:22.159 --> 00:30:25.110
in a hurry. These missions are very


00:30:25.120 --> 00:30:27.669
long- winded because of the distances


00:30:27.679 --> 00:30:32.230
involved. We're talking what um 30 or 30


00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:34.630
AU or something. Yeah, I think this is


00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:37.590
more I think it's more like 45 AU. Wow.


00:30:37.600 --> 00:30:40.190
So, it's Yeah, AU is an astronomical


00:30:40.200 --> 00:30:43.029
unit. 150 million kilometers. Yeah,


00:30:43.039 --> 00:30:47.029
that's a long way away. Um but yeah,


00:30:47.039 --> 00:30:49.750
it's it's probably an area of our solar


00:30:49.760 --> 00:30:51.430
system, even though it's so remote, that


00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:54.470
we need to learn more about because um


00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:55.389
you


00:30:55.399 --> 00:30:57.990
know, some of these rocks get bumped and


00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:00.950
end up heading our way. Uh yes, that's


00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:03.190
right. In the in the Yeah, they do. Or


00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:04.710
um you know, gravitationally interact


00:31:04.720 --> 00:31:06.630
with other objects. Uh but you're right,


00:31:06.640 --> 00:31:09.190
it it's it's um in some ways it's the


00:31:09.200 --> 00:31:11.750
last frontier. is completing the the


00:31:11.760 --> 00:31:14.549
evidence for the way we think our solar


00:31:14.559 --> 00:31:18.710
system formed by this icy uh dust and


00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:21.190
gas cloud that collapsed. And a lot of


00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:23.590
this stuff is the last vestigages, the


00:31:23.600 --> 00:31:26.710
outer the outer vestigages of those um


00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:28.950
you know those uh objects that


00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:30.710
eventually went up to make the inner


00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:32.230
planets. These are these are worlds that


00:31:32.240 --> 00:31:34.630
have never been heated. And that's the,


00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:36.789
you know, the planets have been they've


00:31:36.799 --> 00:31:39.269
been bombarded by gravitational


00:31:39.279 --> 00:31:41.990
interactions by collisions and and


00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:43.750
impacts and things of that sort. So they


00:31:43.760 --> 00:31:46.230
they're hot. Uh these worlds have always


00:31:46.240 --> 00:31:48.310
been cold and that's why they're so


00:31:48.320 --> 00:31:49.909
interesting because they're sort of the


00:31:49.919 --> 00:31:51.750
fossil of the solar systems earliest


00:31:51.760 --> 00:31:53.750
history. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess


00:31:53.760 --> 00:31:55.590
the time will come where we do extensive


00:31:55.600 --> 00:31:57.269
studies, but uh I think we'll have to


00:31:57.279 --> 00:32:00.070
get better spacecraft and maybe use


00:32:00.080 --> 00:32:02.870
those um those um super highways you


00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:04.389
were talking about. Yeah. Yeah, that's


00:32:04.399 --> 00:32:06.470
right. Get out there and have a look.


00:32:06.480 --> 00:32:08.070
Yes. Uh if you'd like to read up on


00:32:08.080 --> 00:32:09.990
that, you can do that at the NASA


00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:12.710
science website or you can go uh to the


00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:14.630
study itself which was published in the


00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:17.830
planetary science journal. Uh that


00:32:17.840 --> 00:32:20.230
brings us to the end. Fred, thank you so


00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:23.190
much. Uh it's a pleasure, Andrew. Um, a


00:32:23.200 --> 00:32:25.269
nice surprise to see you and um, always


00:32:25.279 --> 00:32:27.830
a pleasure to talk. Good to see you,


00:32:27.840 --> 00:32:29.990
too. And we'll catch you on the very


00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:31.509
next episode. Don't forget to visit us


00:32:31.519 --> 00:32:33.430
online. In the meantime, we've got


00:32:33.440 --> 00:32:35.430
plenty of platforms. We're on Instagram.


00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:37.830
We're on YouTube. We're on Facebook.


00:32:37.840 --> 00:32:40.430
We're on our own website,


00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:42.630
spacenutsodcast.com. Spacenuts.io.


00:32:42.640 --> 00:32:44.470
Either URL will take you to the same


00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:46.630
place and have a look around while


00:32:46.640 --> 00:32:49.590
you're there. and uh Hugh in the studio.


00:32:49.600 --> 00:32:51.830
He did actually turn up briefly today,


00:32:51.840 --> 00:32:54.070
but he forgot to put on his Kyper belt


00:32:54.080 --> 00:32:55.750
and his pants fell fell down, so he had


00:32:55.760 --> 00:32:56.990
to make a run for


00:32:57.000 --> 00:32:59.669
it. From me, Andrew Dunley. Oh, it's


00:32:59.679 --> 00:33:01.669
terrible. Uh, thanks for your company.


00:33:01.679 --> 00:33:03.029
We'll see you on the next episode of


00:33:03.039 --> 00:33:05.990
Space Nuts. Bye-bye. Space Nuts, you'll


00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:09.990
be listening to the Space Nuts podcast,


00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:13.029
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