Martian Timekeeping: Synchronizing Clocks, Eccentric Orbits & Space Gum Discoveries | Space...

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Kind: captions
Language: en

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Hello there. Thanks for joining us on


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Space Nuts, where we talk astronomy and


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space science and sometimes canines. And


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coming up, coming up in this episode,


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uh, does anybody really know what time


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it is on Mars? Well, apparently they've


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worked out a way and it's really


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fascinating and there's a good reason


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for it, too. Uh, we're also going to


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talk about the weird orbit of TOI 3884b.


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I was only there last week. And chewing


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gum on asteroids, it's a thing. That's


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all coming up on this episode of Space


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Nuts.


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>> 15 seconds. Guidance is internal. 10 9


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Ignition sequence start.


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>> Space Nuts.


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>> 5 4 3 2


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>> 1 2 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1


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>> Space Nuts.


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>> Astronauts report. It feels good.


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>> And he's back again for more. Here is


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Professor Fred Watson, an astronomer at


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large. Hello, Fred.


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>> Hello, Andrew. Complete with a dog.


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>> Yes. Yes. Um, good old Jordy. He's uh


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he's great value. I I still laugh at the


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the way he greeted us when we went to


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your place a month or so back and


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>> Yeah.


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>> came tearing down the stairs.


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>> That's right. That's


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>> But that's his um


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>> modus operandi.


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>> Yes, it is. And it's not it's not


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aggressive. It's just um excit how are


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you? But it's he just goes beside


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himself when


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Yeah. Anyway, he's already had a session


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this morning standing at the bottom of


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our stairs yelling at something and I'


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have no idea what it was. Probably a


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blade of grass that got blown in the


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weed.


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>> Yeah. Yeah. That's that's the level at


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which he gets excited. Absolutely. Oh,


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blade of grass. Well,


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>> yeah.


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>> Yeah. I love it. Okay. Uh we have got uh


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some really interesting topics today.


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We've always got interesting topics, but


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this is a really great combination. Uh


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we're talking time, weird orbits, and


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chewing gum. Let's uh let's start on


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Mars. Uh and to quote the famous song,


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does anybody really know what time it


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is? Uh Mars is a bit bit of a problem


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when it comes to time and and so is the


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moon to a certain degree because time


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doesn't run the same way in those places


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as it does on Earth. And going forward


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that could become an issue because we're


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going to ultimately spend time on Mars


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uh wandering around growing potatoes.


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But um we need to be able to get the


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time right.


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We do. Um and I mean there are some s


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sort of basic facts before you get into


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the nitty-gritty which is which include


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the fact that the a day on Mars is 40


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minutes longer than a day on Earth. is


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uh 24 about 24 hours and 40 minutes. And


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of course the year on Mars is longer


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too. It's uh 600 and something days of


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our days. 687


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uh is the length of time a Martian year


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takes. So those those are they're the


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easy bits. They're the the givens. But


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if you're trying to synchronize your


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clocks uh between Earth and Mars and


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this is kind of already happening with


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you know with the rovers uh the fact


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that the the rovers are actually


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controlled from Earth but uh because of


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the time delay for signals to get to


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Mars they they they actually there's a


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degree of autonomy in all the rovers


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that are roving on Mars. That's not the


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issue at the moment. The issue is how


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you make your clocks on Earth uh agree


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with clocks on Mars. And there's two uh


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subtleties that come into this. And I


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should um credit the organization that's


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done the work on this, which is the


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United States National Institute of


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Standards and Technology or NIST. Uh


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they've um actually done detailed


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calculations uh about uh exactly how


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time varies on Mars. And so you've got


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two things, Andrew, when you're trying


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to synchronize with clocks on Earth,


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apart from the the time, you know, the


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time delay with signals going to Mars.


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Um, the two things that come into being


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both are to do with Einstein's theories


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of relativity. Uh, and we've talked


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about these infinitum. We've gone on


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about them a lot for a long time. uh and


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you from that will know that uh when you


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put a clock into a gravitational field


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it runs slower uh and that's the time


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dilation effect of general relativity.


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So we know that uh clocks on the surface


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of the earth run slightly slower than


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clocks either in space or even in the


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air. We've now got clocks that are so


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accurate, you can tell the difference


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between time ticking away on a jet plane


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at 10 kilometers high and time ticking


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away on the surface of the Earth. But


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Mars of course also has a gravitational


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field. It's got a gravitational pull,


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but it's only a sixth or thereabouts of


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what we have here on our planet. So that


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means because the gravity is lower, the


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clock runs faster on the surface of


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Mars.


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uh if you're on Mars, your clock is


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ticking away at the same rate. But to an


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outside observer, it runs it runs uh


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slower and to an observer on the Earth


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whose clocks are running even slower, it


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seems to be running faster. And the


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calculation has been that from the NIST,


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the National Institute of Standards and


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Technology, a clock on Mars would run


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477


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microsconds faster per day compared with


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a clock on the Earth. So 477 millionth


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of a second doesn't actually sound much


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except that when you've got


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communications


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uh like the 5G network, you're working


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to, you know, the internal clocks work


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to better than a millionth of a second.


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Um and so 477 of those millionth of a


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second is is yeah


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messy indeed. But it actually gets


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messier because um as you know, we've


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talked about this too. Uh the special


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theory of relativity says that um if you


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have a clock on a moving object and you


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observe it from not a moving object, uh


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then you will also get time dilation.


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That clock will look as though it's


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going slower. Even though it's ticking


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away at the same rate to the person


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who's on the moving object, to an


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outside observer who's stationary, it


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looks as though it's going slower. And


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so we've got an effect because of the


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motion of Mars relative to the motion of


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Earth. Now, Mars is in an orbit around


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the sun just like we are, but it's


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actually quite uh an eccentric orbit. In


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other words, it's rather elongated, more


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so than Earth's orbit is. And so that


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means it's it's it's always got a motion


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towards or away from the earth. And that


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adds another uncertainty. Uh and which


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can go either way because if it's coming


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towards us then you get a different


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effect. Um uh it's 226 microsconds


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uh the daily offset uh in the course of


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a Martian year. uh the difference


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between us and uh and there and um that


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uh I just said something that I want to


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correct there because um it's the thing


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is always the same sign. It doesn't


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matter whether it's going towards us or


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away from us. Uh you've still got the


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the offset in terms of the gravit the um


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relativistic time dilation. Uh which is


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not what I said so I'm correcting that


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now. Uh the um but yeah so you've got


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this additional 226 microsconds. So 477


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microsconds


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uh with up to 226 microsconds added to


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that it means you've got actually quite


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a messy difference in uh in time. It's


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almost a thousandth of a second.


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>> Yeah. This this relates to a time where


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we've got long-term uh human presence on


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Mars and we need to and the technology


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doesn't exist exist yet but we need to


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be able to communicate with Earth in


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real time. Technically, they they're


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going to um uh probably develop ways of


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setting up communication systems so that


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the the the radio signal issue doesn't


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um impinge on that communication because


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at the moment it's like


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>> what 24 minutes to send in.


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>> I think at maximum it can be. Yeah. And


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it's you're not going to be able to get


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away from that. But you can build that


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in because you know Mars's distance very


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precisely. Yeah.


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>> So you can build in a time delay. So


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this is more about working out a a a


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time system that is in sync with earth.


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It's not does that mean we have to


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invent a new kind of clock to use on


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Mars so that it's


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>> I think I think what it mean it's it's


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really about the you know the internal


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consistency of time signals on Mars. So,


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um, you you've got, uh, you're


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absolutely right. You know, the


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synchronization with Earth comes into


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into play here, but you also want to


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make sure that your communications


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actually on Mars, which will be vital,


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uh, are all right. And that's in a way


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okay because the relativistic effects


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don't come in there because you're all


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in the same gravity and you're all


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basically moving uh on a planet at the


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same speed. It's like it's like we don't


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have to take these effects into


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consideration when we're talking between


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ourselves on the surface of the earth.


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But only when you're talking up to


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satellites above the earth uh which we


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do through GPS and through


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communications then you need to take


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those minute time differences into


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account and in a sense that's what this


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is all about. So you know you've got the


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basic property that you can't get away


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from the speed of light 300,000


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kilometers/s. That's the speed at which


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radio signals go to and from Mars that


00:10:05.920 --> 00:10:07.829
you can deal with because we know the


00:10:07.839 --> 00:10:09.750
distance. But then on top of that,


00:10:09.760 --> 00:10:12.870
you've got this added tweak in in terms


00:10:12.880 --> 00:10:14.710
of synchronizing our clocks with the


00:10:14.720 --> 00:10:17.509
clocks on Mars, which makes for a very


00:10:17.519 --> 00:10:19.269
interesting, you know, a very


00:10:19.279 --> 00:10:20.790
interesting uh scenario.


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>> Yeah. Well, here's a dumb question. Why


00:10:22.720 --> 00:10:25.829
can't we just do what we do on Earth


00:10:25.839 --> 00:10:29.110
across the entire solar system and use


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Zulu time? Would Would that not work?


00:10:33.519 --> 00:10:36.949
Um um


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>> it's it's it just Zulu time on Earth


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basically means it's the same time


00:10:42.399 --> 00:10:43.750
everywhere on the planet.


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>> That's an expression I haven't heard


00:10:45.040 --> 00:10:45.670
before actually.


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>> Oh, it's it's a real thing.


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>> Is it


00:10:47.680 --> 00:10:49.990
>> Zulu time? Yeah, it's used by the


00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:51.350
military specifically. But


00:10:51.360 --> 00:10:52.949
>> yeah, that might be why um why I haven't


00:10:52.959 --> 00:10:53.829
heard of it.


00:10:53.839 --> 00:10:55.910
>> I'll look it up. Um cuz right now it


00:10:55.920 --> 00:10:58.630
it's set on Greenwich Men time, but um


00:10:58.640 --> 00:11:01.269
you know, Zulu time applies across the


00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:03.990
entire planet. So, but that's what we


00:11:04.000 --> 00:11:05.990
would call universal time in the world


00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:06.790
of astronomy.


00:11:06.800 --> 00:11:07.829
>> Yeah.


00:11:07.839 --> 00:11:09.910
>> So, why why can't we do that?


00:11:09.920 --> 00:11:12.310
>> Uh, well, we do. I mean, you know, we do


00:11:12.320 --> 00:11:15.430
in space, but but you that's fine. That


00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:17.590
gives you a a time base, but you've got


00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:20.310
to you've got to tweak it for all these


00:11:20.320 --> 00:11:21.829
relativistic differences.


00:11:21.839 --> 00:11:23.430
>> So, you got the time slip problem


00:11:23.440 --> 00:11:25.110
regardless of how you run the clock.


00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:26.389
>> It doesn't matter how you run the clock.


00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:28.389
Yeah. So, so on, you know, if you if


00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:31.670
you're on a one of the moons of Uranus,


00:11:31.680 --> 00:11:34.150
then you you'd have you probably still


00:11:34.160 --> 00:11:37.430
work on universal time or Zulu time. Um,


00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:40.310
and um but you but it when you


00:11:40.320 --> 00:11:41.590
synchronize that with Earth, you've got


00:11:41.600 --> 00:11:42.710
to take all these things into


00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:44.790
consideration. That's the bottom line.


00:11:44.800 --> 00:11:46.470
>> Okay, I get it. Gosh, it's so


00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:49.350
complicated. And yet, you know, Mars is


00:11:49.360 --> 00:11:51.110
as close to Earth as you're probably


00:11:51.120 --> 00:11:53.190
going to find in another planet. the uh


00:11:53.200 --> 00:11:56.389
the the daytime difference is only 40


00:11:56.399 --> 00:12:01.190
minutes. But when we actually set up uh


00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:04.310
long-term stays on Mars, that in itself


00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:05.910
is going to be a problem for humans


00:12:05.920 --> 00:12:08.710
because we are tuned to our own


00:12:08.720 --> 00:12:09.829
environment.


00:12:09.839 --> 00:12:11.990
>> Having an extra 40 minutes a day is


00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:13.990
going to throw everything into a


00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:15.829
>> into a sphere. And I think we talked


00:12:15.839 --> 00:12:17.590
about this some time ago and then the


00:12:17.600 --> 00:12:20.949
only way around it would be um you'd


00:12:20.959 --> 00:12:23.670
have to have a daytime snooze.


00:12:23.680 --> 00:12:26.150
Well, we we kind of know about this


00:12:26.160 --> 00:12:28.150
already because uh and again, we've


00:12:28.160 --> 00:12:29.829
talked about this before that the the


00:12:29.839 --> 00:12:31.829
people who actually operate Perseverance


00:12:31.839 --> 00:12:34.550
and Curiosity and all the other rovers


00:12:34.560 --> 00:12:37.670
that are on Mars um the the ones that


00:12:37.680 --> 00:12:39.509
the only other one that's operational is


00:12:39.519 --> 00:12:42.790
the Chinese one that uh they the people


00:12:42.800 --> 00:12:45.590
who operate those actually change onto a


00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:48.230
24 hours and 40minut schedule. M


00:12:48.240 --> 00:12:51.590
>> so they they're isolated in a sense from


00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:53.829
their from their community and I think


00:12:53.839 --> 00:12:55.670
they quickly quite quickly adapt. I


00:12:55.680 --> 00:12:57.190
think it's a bit rough for the first few


00:12:57.200 --> 00:13:00.230
days. It's a bit like jet lag. Um but


00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:01.910
they I think they quite quickly adapt to


00:13:01.920 --> 00:13:03.990
that longer day Martian day.


00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:06.069
>> So if you start work at 9:00 on a


00:13:06.079 --> 00:13:08.389
Monday, you start at 9:40 on Tuesday. Is


00:13:08.399 --> 00:13:08.949
that


00:13:08.959 --> 00:13:10.310
>> Yeah, that's right.


00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:12.389
>> Follow me. By by the end of the week,


00:13:12.399 --> 00:13:13.350
you


00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:15.269
>> Yeah. So um actually it's the other way


00:13:15.279 --> 00:13:16.949
around, isn't it? You'd


00:13:16.959 --> 00:13:18.629
>> Yeah. Would it be? Yeah, you'd have to


00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:19.269
start earlier


00:13:19.279 --> 00:13:21.430
>> by by the by Monday. Well,


00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:23.110
>> see, it's the same as trying to figure


00:13:23.120 --> 00:13:25.509
out daylight saving, isn't it? Just am I


00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:28.389
going to be early or late?


00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:30.389
>> Oh, imagine trying to do that every day.


00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:33.430
Gosh. No, it's fascinating. And uh so


00:13:33.440 --> 00:13:35.190
yeah, the and the bottom line is that


00:13:35.200 --> 00:13:39.030
this this team has um has more or less


00:13:39.040 --> 00:13:41.350
figured it all out and worked out what


00:13:41.360 --> 00:13:43.030
we have to do to make the time right


00:13:43.040 --> 00:13:45.190
when we get to Mars.


00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:46.870
>> You're right. And you you were right


00:13:46.880 --> 00:13:49.590
actually you would start so to everybody


00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:52.550
else your day you'd be starting 40


00:13:52.560 --> 00:13:54.870
minutes late Tuesday.


00:13:54.880 --> 00:13:58.470
>> Um uh but you're still starting at


00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:00.949
midnight or you know whatever time you


00:14:00.959 --> 00:14:04.550
you you started 9:00 in fact


00:14:04.560 --> 00:14:06.150
>> 9:00 Martian time.


00:14:06.160 --> 00:14:08.069
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's just a bit crazy isn't


00:14:08.079 --> 00:14:10.150
it? But um yeah it's a fascinating


00:14:10.160 --> 00:14:11.269
story. Or if you'd like to read about


00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:14.310
it, it's on the website Scitec Daily, or


00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:16.230
you can read the paper that's been


00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:19.110
published in the Astronomical Journal.


00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:21.350
This is Space Nuts with Andrew Dunley


00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:25.030
and Professor Fred Watson.


00:14:25.040 --> 00:14:26.629
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notes.


00:16:01.519 --> 00:16:02.710
>> And I feel


00:16:02.720 --> 00:16:03.910
>> space nuts.


00:16:03.920 --> 00:16:06.949
>> All right, we're um going to uh focus on


00:16:06.959 --> 00:16:09.430
a target of interest. Now, I only just


00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:13.749
figured out what that means. TOI 3884b.


00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:16.790
This is a planet orbiting a star. And at


00:16:16.800 --> 00:16:18.310
this point in time, they've only found


00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:21.509
this one planet. But the weird thing is


00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:24.550
its orbit is just so out of kilter with


00:16:24.560 --> 00:16:27.030
what we would consider normal and they


00:16:27.040 --> 00:16:28.629
don't know why.


00:16:28.639 --> 00:16:31.189
>> They don't. So you're absolutely right.


00:16:31.199 --> 00:16:33.110
We're talking about an object by the


00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:36.550
name of TI384B.


00:16:36.560 --> 00:16:38.150
Um


00:16:38.160 --> 00:16:40.790
I was just talking to uh a radio


00:16:40.800 --> 00:16:43.990
presenter uh in uh actually in Coffs


00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:47.670
Harour in uh uh northern uh what's it


00:16:47.680 --> 00:16:48.470
called? The Mid North Coast.


00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:49.509
>> Mid North Coast. Yeah.


00:16:49.519 --> 00:16:52.230
>> New South Wales. Um about this very


00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:55.189
topic. Uh and he wants to rename it the


00:16:55.199 --> 00:16:56.470
hula hoop.


00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:57.590
>> That's a good idea.


00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:01.189
>> Yeah. Because um as he said um with hula


00:17:01.199 --> 00:17:03.509
hoops, the problem is always keeping the


00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:05.110
hula hoop at the same angle to your


00:17:05.120 --> 00:17:06.630
waistline.


00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:08.549
Uh he said it tends to wander off and


00:17:08.559 --> 00:17:10.069
that's exactly what's happened with this


00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:12.789
planet. So um Luke Ryan, this is one for


00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:13.909
you.


00:17:13.919 --> 00:17:14.470
>> Cool.


00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:17.110
>> It's the hula hoop the hula hoop planet.


00:17:17.120 --> 00:17:19.909
Um so what's the story? Well, this is a


00:17:19.919 --> 00:17:21.990
planet going around a red dwarf star.


00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:24.870
Uh, it's one of the is it 7,000 odd now?


00:17:24.880 --> 00:17:27.829
Um, exoplanets that we know about. Uh,


00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:31.190
it's at a distance of something like


00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:35.590
130 light years from Earth. Uh, this red


00:17:35.600 --> 00:17:40.070
dwarf is pretty un um, you know, un


00:17:40.080 --> 00:17:41.830
unspectacular


00:17:41.840 --> 00:17:44.070
in that it's just a typical red dwarf


00:17:44.080 --> 00:17:48.150
star, but it's got uh, spots on it. Now,


00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:50.470
a lot of stars we know have spots on it.


00:17:50.480 --> 00:17:51.909
And actually here in Australia, we've


00:17:51.919 --> 00:17:54.470
got a group who I work with quite often


00:17:54.480 --> 00:17:56.070
up in the University of Southern


00:17:56.080 --> 00:17:58.470
Queensland whose specialtity is star


00:17:58.480 --> 00:18:00.950
spots and understanding how we can learn


00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:03.590
about them. And they do they they some


00:18:03.600 --> 00:18:04.950
you know I've seen some of the papers


00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:06.789
that they've written and sometimes these


00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:09.350
star spots uh you know they're almost a


00:18:09.360 --> 00:18:11.590
a quarter of the size of the disc of the


00:18:11.600 --> 00:18:14.070
star itself unlike the sunspots that we


00:18:14.080 --> 00:18:16.549
see which are yes bigger than earth many


00:18:16.559 --> 00:18:18.230
of them but the earth's 100 times


00:18:18.240 --> 00:18:20.710
smaller than the sun. So our sunspots


00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:23.110
are quite tiny compared with some of the


00:18:23.120 --> 00:18:25.669
star spots that we know exist on other


00:18:25.679 --> 00:18:28.549
stars. And this particular uh red dwarf


00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:31.909
has at least one big spot uh which are


00:18:31.919 --> 00:18:34.070
cool. They're cooler than uh the rest of


00:18:34.080 --> 00:18:35.669
the atmosphere. They're cool spots and


00:18:35.679 --> 00:18:38.549
that's why they look darker. Uh and it's


00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:40.789
because of that even though you can't


00:18:40.799 --> 00:18:42.789
see the spot directly, what you can see


00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:45.430
is the way the light from that star


00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:49.270
changes as the star rotates. Uh bringing


00:18:49.280 --> 00:18:51.270
the spot towards us and then on the


00:18:51.280 --> 00:18:53.430
other side of the star. Uh and when the


00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:54.870
spot's towards us, it's a little bit


00:18:54.880 --> 00:18:57.990
dimmer. And so what they've done is um


00:18:58.000 --> 00:18:59.990
uh these scientists uh and I should


00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:02.870
acknowledge uh where they are. I'll come


00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:06.390
to that in a minute. Uh they they have


00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:10.310
uh figured out uh first of all from that


00:19:10.320 --> 00:19:13.350
spot uh rotation uh they figured out


00:19:13.360 --> 00:19:17.190
that this planet sorry this star itself


00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:21.990
rotates every 11 days uh which is uh of


00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:25.029
course um shorter than the sun. is kind


00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:27.830
of half the the sun's rotation. But that


00:19:27.840 --> 00:19:31.830
11 days is the key uh to understanding


00:19:31.840 --> 00:19:34.630
how the star itself rotates. Now enter


00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:37.990
the planet into this. The planet itself


00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:41.110
goes round in something like 4 days. Uh


00:19:41.120 --> 00:19:43.510
so it sort of whizzes around the parent


00:19:43.520 --> 00:19:47.190
star. Um but what the the scientists


00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:51.430
have done is used some very very careful


00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:54.150
measurements and a phenomenon which is


00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:57.830
called the Rosita McGloin effect uh


00:19:57.840 --> 00:20:02.549
which is to do with the way um the uh


00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:05.909
appearance of a stars spectrum changes


00:20:05.919 --> 00:20:09.350
as a planet rotates around the star or


00:20:09.360 --> 00:20:12.070
evolves around the star and using that


00:20:12.080 --> 00:20:17.669
effect they have um basically discovered


00:20:17.679 --> 00:20:21.590
that this planet orbits the star at an


00:20:21.600 --> 00:20:25.270
angle of 62°


00:20:25.280 --> 00:20:28.149
to the stars equator.


00:20:28.159 --> 00:20:30.390
Um and and contrast that with the solar


00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:32.710
system where the planets all orbit more


00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:34.549
or less in the same plane. Mercury is


00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:38.470
the outlier in that it's tilted. Uh but


00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:41.510
uh the that plane is more or less the


00:20:41.520 --> 00:20:44.630
same as the as the equator of the sun.


00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:47.110
>> Yeah. If you if you compare it to Earth,


00:20:47.120 --> 00:20:50.470
uh that that planet's 40° off. We're


00:20:50.480 --> 00:20:53.590
23.44 and they're 60 whatever you said.


00:20:53.600 --> 00:20:55.909
Uh that's a heck of a tilt.


00:20:55.919 --> 00:20:57.430
>> No, it's a different tilt you're talking


00:20:57.440 --> 00:20:59.029
about there.


00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:00.710
>> Uh that's the tilt of the Earth's


00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:01.909
>> Oh, that's the axis.


00:21:01.919 --> 00:21:03.110
>> Rotation axis. Yeah.


00:21:03.120 --> 00:21:05.110
>> Right. Right. But the tilt of the


00:21:05.120 --> 00:21:08.149
earth's orbit to the sun uh to the sun's


00:21:08.159 --> 00:21:10.549
equator is effectively zero.


00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:11.430
>> Right. Gotcha.


00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:13.510
>> As as most of the planets are with the


00:21:13.520 --> 00:21:14.070
exception.


00:21:14.080 --> 00:21:15.590
>> So it's not the tilt. It's the actual


00:21:15.600 --> 00:21:16.950
orbit itself is


00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:18.149
>> Yep. That's right. It's the orbit


00:21:18.159 --> 00:21:18.549
itself.


00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:20.470
>> That's even we not not the rotation of


00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:22.230
the planet. That's right. Good to good


00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:25.350
to clarify that. Thanks Andrew. Um so


00:21:25.360 --> 00:21:27.590
yeah and that's peculiar because you


00:21:27.600 --> 00:21:29.590
know we we conventionally understand


00:21:29.600 --> 00:21:33.510
that the way planets form is in a in a


00:21:33.520 --> 00:21:36.310
um what we call a a protolanetary disc


00:21:36.320 --> 00:21:39.270
which surrounds the infant star and


00:21:39.280 --> 00:21:41.750
because this that both the star and the


00:21:41.760 --> 00:21:43.430
planets have come from a collapsing


00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:46.149
cloud of dust and gas which is itself


00:21:46.159 --> 00:21:47.669
rotating and it's that sort of


00:21:47.679 --> 00:21:50.230
fossilized rotation that we've uh that


00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:52.390
we see in the rotation of the planets or


00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:54.470
the revolution of the planets around the


00:21:54.480 --> 00:21:56.549
sun and the rotation of the sun and


00:21:56.559 --> 00:21:58.549
they're all in the same plane. This


00:21:58.559 --> 00:22:01.830
one's not. So, how has that happened?


00:22:01.840 --> 00:22:04.549
>> And the the the suggestion is


00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:06.870
>> Oh, I know. I know.


00:22:06.880 --> 00:22:08.549
>> Theo did it.


00:22:08.559 --> 00:22:11.270
>> Well, yeah, that's it could be a the


00:22:11.280 --> 00:22:13.750
effect, something that's actually


00:22:13.760 --> 00:22:15.190
collided


00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:17.830
>> with this object. But there's apparently


00:22:17.840 --> 00:22:19.510
um as you pointed out right at the


00:22:19.520 --> 00:22:21.190
beginning, there's no there there isn't


00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:24.470
another there isn't another there's no


00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:27.029
other objects known to be in orbit


00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:29.350
around this star. It seems to be a


00:22:29.360 --> 00:22:31.590
single planet. That's not to say that


00:22:31.600 --> 00:22:32.950
there wasn't something that collided


00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:35.830
with it and moved its orbit. But but


00:22:35.840 --> 00:22:37.350
even, you know, something like Thea


00:22:37.360 --> 00:22:38.789
hitting the Earth, which is how we think


00:22:38.799 --> 00:22:40.310
the moon was formed, that didn't push


00:22:40.320 --> 00:22:42.149
the Earth out of its orbit and tilt the


00:22:42.159 --> 00:22:45.270
orbit. It's a very peculiar effect. I


00:22:45.280 --> 00:22:47.990
mean, it may be that this star has had


00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:50.470
an interaction gravitationally at some


00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:53.350
time in the past and shifted shifted the


00:22:53.360 --> 00:22:56.470
orbit of the planet by the gravitational


00:22:56.480 --> 00:22:58.230
inter interference of something else


00:22:58.240 --> 00:23:01.430
going past. But that's, you know, that's


00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:03.990
just conjecture. Uh, and the bottom line


00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:06.870
is for a a single planet going around a


00:23:06.880 --> 00:23:09.029
star, this is the most peculiar one


00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:11.029
we've ever found. It's because of this


00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:13.669
tilt in its orbit. And that's that's


00:23:13.679 --> 00:23:15.669
what we keep seeing. Every time we find


00:23:15.679 --> 00:23:18.310
something new in another solar system,


00:23:18.320 --> 00:23:21.750
we find not every time, but we are


00:23:21.760 --> 00:23:23.909
starting to find something new and


00:23:23.919 --> 00:23:27.350
different and unexplainable and um yeah,


00:23:27.360 --> 00:23:29.350
nothing's normal really when it comes to


00:23:29.360 --> 00:23:31.430
all these new discoveries.


00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:33.990
>> That's correct. That's right. Uh it's,


00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:37.590
you know, it's just a it's a it's a


00:23:37.600 --> 00:23:39.270
universe out there that's full of


00:23:39.280 --> 00:23:41.270
diversity. That's probably the best way


00:23:41.280 --> 00:23:42.230
to put it.


00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:45.510
>> Yeah. Um and quite a strange place. Do


00:23:45.520 --> 00:23:48.230
we know what kind of planet it is?


00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:50.710
>> Uh yeah, it's a it's a super Earth. I


00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:52.789
think it's got a mass of 39 Earths. So


00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:56.070
it's um something less than Jupiter. Uh


00:23:56.080 --> 00:23:58.630
but it but I think it's um not as big


00:23:58.640 --> 00:24:00.789
not as big in diameter as Jupiter is. I


00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:02.549
think that's right. But you know, it


00:24:02.559 --> 00:24:03.990
probably means it's a hot Jupiter


00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:05.750
basically or a hot subjupiter. Perhaps


00:24:05.760 --> 00:24:07.110
that's the best way to put it.


00:24:07.120 --> 00:24:09.750
>> Right. Okay. Well, uh, it's another


00:24:09.760 --> 00:24:12.950
interesting find. Um, I'm sure they'll


00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:14.630
keep looking at it to try and figure out


00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:18.230
how it ended up where it is and why. Um,


00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:21.029
but yeah, it sounds log logic. If you


00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:23.350
tear it all down, you go with the most


00:24:23.360 --> 00:24:26.070
obvious answer, it's probably been hit


00:24:26.080 --> 00:24:28.549
by something. Probably Steve Smith's


00:24:28.559 --> 00:24:32.230
cricket bat would be my theory.


00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:34.470
>> I think you've probably just baffled uh


00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:36.549
twothirds of our listeners. is probably


00:24:36.559 --> 00:24:39.029
look up Steve Smith cricketer and you'll


00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:41.750
know what I'm talking about. Um, been


00:24:41.760 --> 00:24:44.390
having a great season. Absolutely


00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:46.710
wonderful season. But I I won't gloat


00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:48.070
because I know we're heard in England


00:24:48.080 --> 00:24:50.230
and I I don't want to, you know, it's


00:24:50.240 --> 00:24:53.190
not over yet. Um, so if you would like


00:24:53.200 --> 00:24:55.510
to read up on that story, uh, you can do


00:24:55.520 --> 00:24:58.470
so at the daily galaxy.com website or


00:24:58.480 --> 00:25:01.510
you can read the paper in the


00:25:01.520 --> 00:25:03.510
astronomical journal, I think it is. Let


00:25:03.520 --> 00:25:05.190
me just double check that. Yes,


00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:06.549
>> the astronomical journal.


00:25:06.559 --> 00:25:07.029
>> Yeah,


00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:09.190
>> this is Space Nuts with Andrew Dunley


00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:12.789
and Professor Fred Watson.


00:25:12.799 --> 00:25:14.230
>> Now, let's take a break from the show to


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00:26:37.679 --> 00:26:39.110
>> You're sir here.


00:26:39.120 --> 00:26:43.350
>> Spacenuts. Our last story is about one


00:26:43.360 --> 00:26:45.110
of my favorite things and that is


00:26:45.120 --> 00:26:47.190
chewing gum. Uh, I grew up on that


00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:48.950
stuff. I didn't eat food. I just chewed


00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:50.470
gum


00:26:50.480 --> 00:26:53.990
at infin item. I I I used to stick it on


00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:56.070
the bed post when I went to sleep and


00:26:56.080 --> 00:26:58.470
start again as soon as I woke up. I just


00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:00.950
I was addicted to the stuff, especially


00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:02.870
the stuff we had called Big Charlie. I


00:27:02.880 --> 00:27:04.149
don't know if anyone remembers Big


00:27:04.159 --> 00:27:06.310
Charlie, but it came in a stick about


00:27:06.320 --> 00:27:08.470
one foot long


00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:09.830
and good.


00:27:09.840 --> 00:27:12.470
>> It was amazing. Anyway, can't find that


00:27:12.480 --> 00:27:15.510
anymore. Um, the point I'm trying to


00:27:15.520 --> 00:27:17.750
make is that this is all about a


00:27:17.760 --> 00:27:19.669
discovery that's been made on the


00:27:19.679 --> 00:27:22.789
samples of the Beno Bennu asteroid that


00:27:22.799 --> 00:27:25.430
were returned to Earth in the deserts of


00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:27.110
Utah a couple of years ago and they've


00:27:27.120 --> 00:27:29.029
been sort of looking at it ever since


00:27:29.039 --> 00:27:33.190
and they have found something unusual.


00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:34.870
It's not chewing gum, but it is like


00:27:34.880 --> 00:27:38.070
chewing gum because it's um it's a it's


00:27:38.080 --> 00:27:41.110
a kind of a polymer.


00:27:41.120 --> 00:27:43.350
Yeah, I'm still grappling with you and


00:27:43.360 --> 00:27:46.070
your um your chewing gum on the on the


00:27:46.080 --> 00:27:48.870
bed post. Um if I remember rightly, it


00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:52.870
was Lonnie Donnigan who in the 1950s had


00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:54.789
a big hit with does your chewing gum


00:27:54.799 --> 00:27:56.470
lose its flavor in the bed post


00:27:56.480 --> 00:27:57.190
overnight?


00:27:57.200 --> 00:28:00.230
>> The answer is yes. Um


00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:01.430
>> yeah.


00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:06.630
>> So straight from there to Asteroid Benu.


00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:09.029
Um I think it was Lonnie Donigan anyway.


00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:11.029
Uh yeah, I can't remember, but I know


00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:14.630
>> great skiffl artist of the 1950s.


00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:16.230
Um he


00:28:16.240 --> 00:28:19.029
>> there's a photo of Big Charlie. I don't


00:28:19.039 --> 00:28:20.549
know if you can see that. No, you can't.


00:28:20.559 --> 00:28:22.310
>> I can't. No, it's just disappearing cuz


00:28:22.320 --> 00:28:24.149
you all I can see now is the moon.


00:28:24.159 --> 00:28:25.750
>> Yeah.


00:28:25.760 --> 00:28:26.230
>> Anyway,


00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:31.669
>> a big Charlie.


00:28:31.679 --> 00:28:34.149
>> Yeah, it was a monster packeted like you


00:28:34.159 --> 00:28:36.470
know, you couldn't put it in your


00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:42.470
pocket. you poking my ear.


00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:45.830
>> Well, I have to say uh it's something


00:28:45.840 --> 00:28:48.070
not at all like that that we're talking


00:28:48.080 --> 00:28:50.789
about with asteroid Bennu because all


00:28:50.799 --> 00:28:52.549
these observations have made been made


00:28:52.559 --> 00:28:54.870
with an electron microscope which you


00:28:54.880 --> 00:28:57.190
probably didn't need for a big Charlie.


00:28:57.200 --> 00:29:00.230
Um but the what what's it all about?


00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:06.070
It's uh what's been found in the dust uh


00:29:06.080 --> 00:29:08.710
which was returned by the Osiris Rex


00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:12.310
spacecraft uh I think in 2023 if I


00:29:12.320 --> 00:29:14.310
remember rightly samples from asteroid


00:29:14.320 --> 00:29:17.669
Bennu. It's a NASA project. Um what has


00:29:17.679 --> 00:29:19.590
been found in there is what the


00:29:19.600 --> 00:29:22.549
scientists call nitrogenrich polymer


00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:24.149
sheets.


00:29:24.159 --> 00:29:27.269
Uh which you and I would call gum. Uh


00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:30.549
it's a polymer basically. Uh, and


00:29:30.559 --> 00:29:33.590
polymers are are materials where you've


00:29:33.600 --> 00:29:36.470
got these long chains of molecules that


00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:38.389
give them that sort of flexible and


00:29:38.399 --> 00:29:42.230
sticky sticky flavor or not flavor but


00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:45.190
uh demeanor, let me put it that way. Uh,


00:29:45.200 --> 00:29:49.430
so it's yeah, it's got um it's got uh


00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:52.070
these longchain molecules on it and so


00:29:52.080 --> 00:29:54.470
the the scientists are calling it space


00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:57.269
gum. Uh it's not gum as we would know


00:29:57.279 --> 00:29:59.750
it, but what they've done is they've um


00:29:59.760 --> 00:30:02.870
they've found uh sort of almost like


00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:05.269
shards of this stuff within the dust


00:30:05.279 --> 00:30:09.190
samples from Bennu. And in order to


00:30:09.200 --> 00:30:11.830
analyze it, they've actually had to coat


00:30:11.840 --> 00:30:15.669
it with a a layer of uh I think it's


00:30:15.679 --> 00:30:19.669
platinum um uh that they've they've


00:30:19.679 --> 00:30:21.750
reinforced it with so that they can take


00:30:21.760 --> 00:30:25.269
samples from it uh with a tungsten micro


00:30:25.279 --> 00:30:27.590
needle. Uh and you see pictures of all


00:30:27.600 --> 00:30:29.590
this stuff going on on the web. Universe


00:30:29.600 --> 00:30:32.630
Today's got a nice story about it. Um


00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:36.549
and uh then with the micro needle then


00:30:36.559 --> 00:30:38.149
you can take the samples and you know


00:30:38.159 --> 00:30:40.149
analyze them with all the various pieces


00:30:40.159 --> 00:30:43.269
of kit that we we use to make these


00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:46.149
analyses. Uh and it turns out yeah


00:30:46.159 --> 00:30:48.789
there's um there's gum there. Uh I think


00:30:48.799 --> 00:30:52.870
the puzzle is how it got there. uh


00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:56.389
because well in let me just um since


00:30:56.399 --> 00:30:59.350
we're mentioning universe today and the


00:30:59.360 --> 00:31:02.310
lovely article uh by Andy Thomas Stwick


00:31:02.320 --> 00:31:04.310
I think is his name might not be how you


00:31:04.320 --> 00:31:07.669
pronounce it but uh what uh he says is


00:31:07.679 --> 00:31:09.830
one question remains one question


00:31:09.840 --> 00:31:12.070
remains how exactly did the space gum


00:31:12.080 --> 00:31:14.470
survive on Bennu for so long we know


00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:16.470
that Bennu was part of a larger asteroid


00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:19.350
that had hydrothermal vents


00:31:19.360 --> 00:31:20.950
meaning the asteroid itself was


00:31:20.960 --> 00:31:23.190
subjected to water. Complex organic


00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:26.070
molecules like the space gum usually


00:31:26.080 --> 00:31:28.149
either dissolve or break up when


00:31:28.159 --> 00:31:31.029
subjected to hot water. So, how had this


00:31:31.039 --> 00:31:34.789
particular sample uh avoided that fate?


00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:37.590
And what they're saying then is that


00:31:37.600 --> 00:31:42.070
perhaps the sample might have formed uh


00:31:42.080 --> 00:31:46.149
basically during a phase when Bennu was


00:31:46.159 --> 00:31:48.230
cold before it actually got hot enough


00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:51.669
for nuclear processes to heat it up. Um


00:31:51.679 --> 00:31:53.269
and they're saying that that these


00:31:53.279 --> 00:31:56.149
samples actually date from that time. Uh


00:31:56.159 --> 00:31:59.830
and that basically um uh what they say


00:31:59.840 --> 00:32:02.950
is uh by the time radioactive elements


00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:05.269
inside the asteroid and this again is


00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:07.669
quoted from Universe Today. By the time


00:32:07.679 --> 00:32:09.269
the radioactive elements inside the


00:32:09.279 --> 00:32:11.029
asteroid had heated up enough to create


00:32:11.039 --> 00:32:13.269
the water, the plastic in inverted


00:32:13.279 --> 00:32:15.669
commas, sheets of polymer were already


00:32:15.679 --> 00:32:18.389
formed and were in fact water resistant,


00:32:18.399 --> 00:32:20.149
thereby getting trapped by the rocks on


00:32:20.159 --> 00:32:22.149
the asteroid surface where they were


00:32:22.159 --> 00:32:24.470
eventually picked up by an intrepid


00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:28.149
space probe, namely uh a Sirius Rex. So


00:32:28.159 --> 00:32:30.070
yeah, and and here's the really


00:32:30.080 --> 00:32:32.710
interesting bit. Um we've got other


00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:35.669
asteroid samples, as you know, Andrew,


00:32:35.679 --> 00:32:36.070
from


00:32:36.080 --> 00:32:38.789
>> Yes. uh the two Japanese spacecraft that


00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:41.909
have brought back asteroid samples. Um


00:32:41.919 --> 00:32:44.789
and neither of those have polymers in


00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:45.669
them.


00:32:45.679 --> 00:32:48.549
>> Uh so uh Bennu is different. It's a


00:32:48.559 --> 00:32:51.669
different uh body. It's still a rubble


00:32:51.679 --> 00:32:54.070
pile asteroid as far as we know, but


00:32:54.080 --> 00:32:55.750
different in its chemical makeup.


00:32:55.760 --> 00:32:57.830
>> So I suppose that throws up questions


00:32:57.840 --> 00:33:01.830
about asteroid formation and why this is


00:33:01.840 --> 00:33:03.830
different or is it is it normal and the


00:33:03.840 --> 00:33:05.350
other two were different? You don't


00:33:05.360 --> 00:33:06.710
know, do you? Yeah, that's right. That's


00:33:06.720 --> 00:33:08.070
the thing. Yes.


00:33:08.080 --> 00:33:10.230
>> Yeah. Very interesting indeed. If you'd


00:33:10.240 --> 00:33:13.029
like to read about it, universetoday.com


00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:15.750
has that great article that uh Fred was


00:33:15.760 --> 00:33:18.070
talking about and uh yeah, we'll we'll


00:33:18.080 --> 00:33:19.750
probably learn more and more as they


00:33:19.760 --> 00:33:21.509
keep going through those samples from


00:33:21.519 --> 00:33:25.669
Benu. Um Fred, we're uh we're all done.


00:33:25.679 --> 00:33:27.750
Thank you so much. That was quick.


00:33:27.760 --> 00:33:30.710
>> It was, wasn't it? Um and they were they


00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:33.029
were quite complex stories as well.


00:33:33.039 --> 00:33:34.710
>> Yeah. probably why we didn't spend much


00:33:34.720 --> 00:33:36.310
time on them.


00:33:36.320 --> 00:33:37.990
>> Our brains neither of us understands


00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:40.310
them either.


00:33:40.320 --> 00:33:42.149
>> Yeah. All right. Thanks, Fred. We'll


00:33:42.159 --> 00:33:45.669
catch you shortly um for our final


00:33:45.679 --> 00:33:47.990
program of the year officially. So,


00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:49.990
we'll we'll see you then. Thanks, Fred.


00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:51.990
>> Sounds great. Well done, Andrew.


00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:54.789
>> And um thanks to Hugh in the studio who


00:33:54.799 --> 00:33:56.310
couldn't be with us today because of a


00:33:56.320 --> 00:33:59.430
weird uh object that uh he's gone to see


00:33:59.440 --> 00:34:01.350
the doctor about. Uh, and don't forget


00:34:01.360 --> 00:34:04.149
to visit us online and uh, you can do


00:34:04.159 --> 00:34:06.870
that at spacenutspodcast.com or


00:34:06.880 --> 00:34:09.270
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00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:11.589
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00:34:11.599 --> 00:34:14.470
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00:34:22.720 --> 00:34:24.710
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00:34:32.720 --> 00:34:34.470
And from me, Andrew Dunley, thanks for


00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:36.710
your company. We will see you again on


00:34:36.720 --> 00:34:38.389
the next episode real soon.


00:34:38.399 --> 00:34:40.710
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00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:46.710
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