Mars’ Hidden Oceans, Sweat Shields & The Universe’s Sudden End | Space Nuts: Astronomy Insights...

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Hi there. This is Space Nuts, where we


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talk astronomy and space science. And my


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name is Andrew Dunley, your host. It's


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good to have your company. On this


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episode, we're going to Mars, uh, where


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we're going to talk about water. Now,


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water is a very common Martian topic.


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Uh, but this story is going to throw a


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completely different light on Mars


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water, and we'll tell you why. Uh


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there's also a a a great idea that's


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being put forward to help aircraft


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spacecraft re-enter Earth's atmosphere


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cuz up until now we've used heat shields


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and tiles. Now they think they've come


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up with something completely different.


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It's called sweat and the universe.


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RIP. Yep. We're going to see it all end


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much sooner than we expected. We'll talk


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about all of that on this episode of


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Space Nuts. 15 seconds. Guidance is


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internal. 10 9 Ignition sequence start.


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Space nuts. 5 4 3 2 1 2 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1


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Space Nuts. Astronauts reported feels


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good. And he's back again for more. It


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is Professor Fred Watson, astronomer at


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large. Hello, Fred. Uh Andrew, how you


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doing? I'm doing quite well, thank you


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very much. Are you What a surprise to


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see. Yeah, I'm very well, thank you.


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Yeah. It is a surprise to see you. No


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doubt. I mean,


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do you like my new background? I'm going


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to change the background every week on


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my studio. I I think that's a good idea.


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Uh and um I do like it actually. It's uh


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it's a place that's close to my heart as


00:01:35.360 --> 00:01:37.350
well as yours. It's a great place that


00:01:37.360 --> 00:01:40.310
you Well, isn't Isn't that the saying? I


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left my heart in San Francisco. Yeah,


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you probably did. Yeah. So, I left my


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that's that's a photo I took after we


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crossed the Golden Gate Bridge looking


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back to San Francisco. So, thought I'd


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use that as my backdrop today. The um


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second line of that song is a good one


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as well. I I I left my knees in Old


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Peru,


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courtesy of the courtesy of the Goons.


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Yes, of course. Yeah. Uh beautiful city.


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Really beautiful city. I think I told


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you about the driverless taxis they've


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got, but there's so much more going for


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it. Those uh cable cars are fantastic.


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Um we we obviously did the tourist thing


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and did a ride on one of those and then


00:02:22.560 --> 00:02:24.790
you know did the walk down Lombard


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Street that zigzaggy street that um it's


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become quite famous and I don't know how


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many movies and TV shows it's been in


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but um and it's like all of these things


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that that when you see them on TV you


00:02:37.680 --> 00:02:39.589
think oh wow got to go see that and then


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you get there and go oh it's it's a lot


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smaller than I


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thought but yeah Um I I don't know what


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the price of a house is on Lombard


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Street, but uh it's beautiful homes


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there. Yes. Um but overall a beautiful


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city. Beautiful city. I'd go back there


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tomorrow. Uh we better get into it,


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Fred. And our first topic uh today is


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the water on Mars or in this case


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according to a new theory inside Mars.


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And we're talking about massive amounts


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of water.


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Indeed. That's right. We are. It's not


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just a few drips or drops. Uh so the


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story uh the the star of the story,


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Andrew, is NASA's Insight spacecraft,


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which um it's almost it's more than a


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decade ago now, I think, that Insight


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landed. Uh you might remember it landed


00:03:32.640 --> 00:03:36.270
in the Arctic region of Mars and uh


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basically did one summer's worth of work


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because we knew that once it got into


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winter on Mars, the spacecraft would


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freeze and all the electronics would die


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and it would pass away, which it did. Uh


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it's still there, of course, but it's


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inactive. Um so a great a great uh m


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mission. Uh it had one um little hiccup


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in that the thermometer that they were


00:03:59.519 --> 00:04:01.190
trying to dig into the ground didn't get


00:04:01.200 --> 00:04:03.030
dug in. You might remember we covered


00:04:03.040 --> 00:04:04.789
that on Space Nuts. But what worked to


00:04:04.799 --> 00:04:08.550
treat was the seismometer because it had


00:04:08.560 --> 00:04:12.309
a very sensitive seismometer uh able to


00:04:12.319 --> 00:04:16.870
listen to Mars quakes. Uh and um Mars


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quakes are caused by a number of things.


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uh impacting uh meteorites actually


00:04:23.199 --> 00:04:25.830
cause a little quake. And they also


00:04:25.840 --> 00:04:28.710
think there's some residual not exactly


00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:30.790
plate tectonics but just slips and


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slides of fault lines and things of that


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sort which also create seismic data.


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Yeah. And so this is uh where the story


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really starts because


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um we know uh from other evidence that


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Mars uh probably between about 4.1 and 3


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billion years ago was warm and wet. Uh


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the evidence is in your face in many


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ways. You can see evidence of beaches


00:04:57.120 --> 00:05:00.150
and river channels and you know the


00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:01.670
northern hemisphere of Mars is much


00:05:01.680 --> 00:05:03.430
smoother and flatter than than the


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southern hemisphere which we think is


00:05:04.880 --> 00:05:06.070
because there was possibly an ocean


00:05:06.080 --> 00:05:09.110
there. So all the evidence uh is that


00:05:09.120 --> 00:05:10.950
during that early period in Mars's


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history and just remember that all the


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planets are 4.6 billion years old or


00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:18.469
thereabouts 4.7 something like that. Uh


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4.1 billion years is only half a billion


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years after the origin of Mars. But uh


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we think that that was more or less the


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start of when it would be was a warm and


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wet world and that lasted for nearly a


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billion years, a little bit more


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perhaps. So um the atmosphere uh uh


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sorry the the water on Mars is now no


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longer on the surface and uh that's


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pretty evident because it's as dry as


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dust and in fact it's got a humidity


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effectively not quite but effectively of


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zero very very low humidity. Um so the


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questions have always been where did the


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surface water go? We know that uh


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because Mars does not have a strong


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magnetic field, it's bombarded intensely


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by the solar wind and that tends to


00:06:03.759 --> 00:06:08.550
separate any water uh vapor uh into its


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component atoms hydrogen and oxygen and


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that they then basically waft off into


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space. And we know that's happening


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because there's a spacecraft called


00:06:16.720 --> 00:06:19.590
Marvin or Maven uh which is still active


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in orbit around Mars and that can see


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this this stuff all leaking away. So we


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know that was part of the story. But um


00:06:26.639 --> 00:06:28.230
the planetary scientists who look at


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Mars in detail say that's not enough. We


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can't actually account for all the water


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that must have been there by it just


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disappearing into space. Um we know some


00:06:39.039 --> 00:06:41.670
of it's frozen in the polar caps uh of


00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:45.110
Mars. Um, and probably, you know,


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hydrayzeed minerals that they they've


00:06:47.280 --> 00:06:49.270
been minerals on Mars's surface have


00:06:49.280 --> 00:06:52.390
been affected by water. Uh, that's still


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the case. However, uh, there must be


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more. And there was a calculation done


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um I think by the research group that's


00:07:01.840 --> 00:07:04.589
uh done this work with the insights um


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lander which estimates that the the the


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water that's gone missing uh was enough


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to cover the planet in an ocean between


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700 and 900 m deep. So that just blowed


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me away. Yeah. It's uh it's gone. um


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where and and that's not an


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insignificant amount of water. Remember,


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Mars is only half the diameter of Earth.


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So, it's not like uh an earthly amount,


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but it's a lot of water. 700 to 900 m


00:07:36.400 --> 00:07:39.749
deep across the whole planet. So, uh


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where's it gone? Uh and you know, if we


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can find it, what what might it be like?


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So, uh now enter uh Insight. Uh and


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actually, I was wrong. It's not a decade


00:07:51.919 --> 00:07:55.270
ago. It was 2018 when Insight landed uh


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and did all that super work with its


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sensitive seismometer. They looked uh


00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:05.350
these scientists looked at the the


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vibrations that come from um any sort of


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Mars quake caused by yeah as as I


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mentioned before either slippage in the


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rock or a or a meteorite. uh but you can


00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:20.710
look very accurately at the um


00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:22.550
essentially the types of waves that


00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:24.869
you're getting because the uh there


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there are pressure waves and shear waves


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I think they're called S waves and P


00:08:27.919 --> 00:08:31.110
waves in the in the um uh in the jargon


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of seismometry but these these waves


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seism seismographic waves tell you


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something about the material that they


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are passing through and that is where


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this this uh story has gone because


00:08:44.159 --> 00:08:46.790
these scientists estimate


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uh what they call a significant


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underground anomaly exists uh in a layer


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between 5 and a half and 8 kilometers


00:08:56.160 --> 00:08:58.790
below the surface because they find that


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these sheer waves move more slowly uh in


00:09:01.519 --> 00:09:04.389
that region. And the most likely


00:09:04.399 --> 00:09:06.790
explanation and remember that's that's a


00:09:06.800 --> 00:09:08.910
layer that's you know it's 2 and a half


00:09:08.920 --> 00:09:11.430
kilometers 2 and a half kilometers


00:09:11.440 --> 00:09:16.389
thick. Um that layer they think is


00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:20.389
likely to be porous rock like we've got


00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:22.790
here on planet Earth uh filled with


00:09:22.800 --> 00:09:25.030
liquid water just a little bit like the


00:09:25.040 --> 00:09:27.110
aquifers and we've got a great one here


00:09:27.120 --> 00:09:30.070
in Australia the Great Artisian Basin uh


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which is I'm sitting on it right now.


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You're sitting on it. That's right. You


00:09:32.880 --> 00:09:35.269
are. Are your feet wet, Andrew? Or no?


00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:38.150
No. Look, we do we do have, as you know,


00:09:38.160 --> 00:09:41.110
several BS all over the city here


00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:44.550
because uh we can tap the Great Artisian


00:09:44.560 --> 00:09:47.110
Basin and and get that water for


00:09:47.120 --> 00:09:50.790
domestic use. So, we we kind of um take


00:09:50.800 --> 00:09:52.870
water from that source as well as from


00:09:52.880 --> 00:09:55.670
the local river. The river is fed by a a


00:09:55.680 --> 00:09:57.750
huge dam upstream which is bigger than


00:09:57.760 --> 00:10:01.110
Sydney Harour. Uh and yes, that's right,


00:10:01.120 --> 00:10:03.910
Baron Dam. So uh yeah we we uh


00:10:03.920 --> 00:10:07.269
definitely use the aquifer water from


00:10:07.279 --> 00:10:09.670
the great artisian basin to supplement


00:10:09.680 --> 00:10:12.070
the the city supply. We are actually


00:10:12.080 --> 00:10:13.990
drought proof as a consequence of that.


00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:17.110
We will never run out of water because


00:10:17.120 --> 00:10:19.350
we sit on the great artisian basin.


00:10:19.360 --> 00:10:21.750
Yeah. Which basically stretches north to


00:10:21.760 --> 00:10:23.990
south across the entire continent down


00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:27.110
um this sort of central eastern section.


00:10:27.120 --> 00:10:28.630
That's correct. Yeah. Yeah. It's


00:10:28.640 --> 00:10:31.269
massive. It is. It's like it's like an


00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:32.949
underground ocean basically and that's


00:10:32.959 --> 00:10:35.030
what we're talking about with Mars.


00:10:35.040 --> 00:10:37.269
That's exactly right. And so is it's a


00:10:37.279 --> 00:10:39.350
really nice um you know connection that


00:10:39.360 --> 00:10:41.030
we have here in Eastern Australia with


00:10:41.040 --> 00:10:44.550
Mars. uh this sort of you know um it's


00:10:44.560 --> 00:10:47.190
almost the rock itself is is spongelike


00:10:47.200 --> 00:10:49.190
in the sense that it holds the water the


00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:52.550
liquid water and the thinking is uh that


00:10:52.560 --> 00:10:56.550
because it's at a depth as I said a few


00:10:56.560 --> 00:10:58.470
kilometers between 5 and a half and 8


00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:01.990
kilometers um the temperature there is


00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:03.750
warmer than it is on the surface by


00:11:03.760 --> 00:11:05.350
quite a long way because of just the


00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:07.990
internal heat of the planet uh and so


00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:10.550
they think it is actually liquid uh and


00:11:10.560 --> 00:11:13.670
that fits the bill in terms of the


00:11:13.680 --> 00:11:16.150
seismic waves that they've detected. Uh


00:11:16.160 --> 00:11:17.590
that that you've actually got this


00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:22.310
liquid water in porous rock. Um and


00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:25.350
what's really nice about this story is


00:11:25.360 --> 00:11:29.509
uh that if that is um a a global uh


00:11:29.519 --> 00:11:32.550
layer of rock, and it may well be, um


00:11:32.560 --> 00:11:36.389
they calculate how much water is in it.


00:11:36.399 --> 00:11:38.790
Uh, and sure enough, it's enough to


00:11:38.800 --> 00:11:41.350
cover Mars in a global ocean between,


00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:43.110
well, the figures they quote is between


00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:47.509
520 and 780 m deep. Just about the same


00:11:47.519 --> 00:11:49.750
as what they think is the missing water


00:11:49.760 --> 00:11:52.150
mass on Mars. So, this makes sense.


00:11:52.160 --> 00:11:55.350
Yeah. I mean, this is still a maybe, not


00:11:55.360 --> 00:11:57.829
a definite, but the the numbers


00:11:57.839 --> 00:12:00.069
certainly support it. That's that's


00:12:00.079 --> 00:12:01.509
what's really interesting about this


00:12:01.519 --> 00:12:06.310
story. Excuse me. And uh yeah, the


00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:09.069
question is if we go to Mars


00:12:09.079 --> 00:12:11.590
and I know you don't like this, but they


00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:13.670
will probably establish colonies there


00:12:13.680 --> 00:12:17.269
if one man has his way. Um will they be


00:12:17.279 --> 00:12:19.829
able to access it? Could it could it


00:12:19.839 --> 00:12:22.710
actually hold microbial life? And could


00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:25.750
you drink it? Uh yes, that's right. I


00:12:25.760 --> 00:12:27.990
mean, the middle question there, the


00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:29.509
fact that there might be life in it,


00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:32.150
that's the one that's so intriguing. Uh


00:12:32.160 --> 00:12:34.710
I think I suspect at that depth you'd


00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:37.110
struggle to get it. But we do know and


00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:40.629
again this comes from Insight. Um uh no


00:12:40.639 --> 00:12:42.069
it wasn't Insight, was it? It was


00:12:42.079 --> 00:12:44.790
Phoenix. Yes, Phoenix was a spacecraft


00:12:44.800 --> 00:12:49.190
like Insight uh which was uh actually


00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:50.629
the one that was in the Arctic. I'm


00:12:50.639 --> 00:12:52.389
sorry I beg you pardon. I said something


00:12:52.399 --> 00:12:54.310
incorrect before that Insight was in the


00:12:54.320 --> 00:12:55.990
Arctic, Martian Arctic, but it wasn't.


00:12:56.000 --> 00:12:58.069
It was Phoenix. Two spacecraft which was


00:12:58.079 --> 00:13:00.150
very similar. Uh, one was for


00:13:00.160 --> 00:13:02.550
seismometry. Insight was basically


00:13:02.560 --> 00:13:04.870
giving us sight sight of the inside of


00:13:04.880 --> 00:13:09.110
Mars. And Phoenix was all about uh


00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:12.550
basically um sampling the surface rock.


00:13:12.560 --> 00:13:16.150
Uh and we you remember those classic


00:13:16.160 --> 00:13:18.150
pictures. They scraped away the top


00:13:18.160 --> 00:13:20.389
layer of soil and there was ice and


00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:22.550
there's ice underneath it. Yeah. Yeah.


00:13:22.560 --> 00:13:24.710
Yeah. It was it was like a um it was


00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:27.110
like a a kid had been up there with his


00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:29.750
tonker tractor and he scraped the top of


00:13:29.760 --> 00:13:32.949
the the dirt and it turned white. It


00:13:32.959 --> 00:13:35.030
turned white. That's right. So that's


00:13:35.040 --> 00:13:37.030
that is in the Arctic region, but that's


00:13:37.040 --> 00:13:39.269
telling you there's a perafrost of water


00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:42.150
and and there is a huge amount there as


00:13:42.160 --> 00:13:44.470
well. uh but you know to find liquid


00:13:44.480 --> 00:13:48.150
water now um whether that's drinkable


00:13:48.160 --> 00:13:49.829
probably if you purify it might have


00:13:49.839 --> 00:13:51.190
minerals in it that you'd like to get


00:13:51.200 --> 00:13:53.590
rid of but uh I think it will be


00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:56.069
drinkable um but yes the intriguing


00:13:56.079 --> 00:13:58.350
thing is as you said is whether it could


00:13:58.360 --> 00:14:01.750
harbor Martian biology that's uh really


00:14:01.760 --> 00:14:04.069
really interesting uh and and in that


00:14:04.079 --> 00:14:06.470
regard um you know we've talked about


00:14:06.480 --> 00:14:08.470
the planetary protection rules before


00:14:08.480 --> 00:14:12.389
and uh planet um how how much of


00:14:12.399 --> 00:14:14.150
spacecraft has to be sterilized before


00:14:14.160 --> 00:14:15.750
it's sent to Mars if it's going anywhere


00:14:15.760 --> 00:14:18.550
where liquid water could exist. What it


00:14:18.560 --> 00:14:20.150
would do, this would mean that we would


00:14:20.160 --> 00:14:22.550
have to be doubly careful so that no


00:14:22.560 --> 00:14:24.150
matter where you're going on Mars, cuz


00:14:24.160 --> 00:14:25.829
deep under the surface, there might well


00:14:25.839 --> 00:14:27.509
be Martian microbes that wouldn't like


00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:29.829
earthly microbes if they found their way


00:14:29.839 --> 00:14:32.870
down through the rocks. So, absolutely.


00:14:32.880 --> 00:14:34.790
And and we've got evidence on earth of


00:14:34.800 --> 00:14:37.350
that kind of contamination when like the


00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:39.509
Spanish went to South America and the


00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:42.710
the South American people um were


00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:45.269
exposed to diseases that just didn't


00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:47.430
exist in there. Wiped them out. Wiped


00:14:47.440 --> 00:14:49.670
them out almost completely. Similar


00:14:49.680 --> 00:14:51.269
things happened in our own country,


00:14:51.279 --> 00:14:53.750
Andrew, as well. Absolutely. Smallox and


00:14:53.760 --> 00:14:55.030
things like that. And I should just


00:14:55.040 --> 00:14:56.389
talking about our country, I should


00:14:56.399 --> 00:14:57.910
mention that some of this work has been


00:14:57.920 --> 00:14:59.829
carried out by Australian investigators


00:14:59.839 --> 00:15:02.150
at the Australian National University as


00:15:02.160 --> 00:15:04.870
well as um uh scientists at the Chinese


00:15:04.880 --> 00:15:07.509
Academy of Sciences. Well, hopefully


00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:09.990
there'll be some followup to um maybe


00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:13.829
confirm what they think. U as I said,


00:15:13.839 --> 00:15:15.509
the numbers are stacking up in that


00:15:15.519 --> 00:15:18.629
favor and it will mean that if that's


00:15:18.639 --> 00:15:22.949
true, um Mars is not a dry dead planet.


00:15:22.959 --> 00:15:24.949
It's probably a water world, but a


00:15:24.959 --> 00:15:26.710
different kind of water. And then and we


00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:28.230
we're seeing more and more of that


00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:30.550
throughout the solar system. We are


00:15:30.560 --> 00:15:32.949
indeed. That's right. Very exciting


00:15:32.959 --> 00:15:34.550
indeed. All right. If you'd like to read


00:15:34.560 --> 00:15:38.269
up on that, you can uh see that at the


00:15:38.279 --> 00:15:41.269
conversation.com website. This is Space


00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:44.509
Nuts. Andrew Dunley with Professor Fred


00:15:44.519 --> 00:15:46.629
Watson. Let's take a little break from


00:15:46.639 --> 00:15:48.710
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00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:20.909
spaceenuts. Now back to the


00:18:20.919 --> 00:18:24.230
show here also. Space nuts. Speaking of


00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:28.230
water, well, not quite, but uh we we've


00:18:28.240 --> 00:18:33.029
seen uh over the entire uh space race to


00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:35.830
date um which began way back in the


00:18:35.840 --> 00:18:38.150
middle of the last century uh that if


00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:40.789
you wanted to get a spacecraft back into


00:18:40.799 --> 00:18:43.190
the atmosphere, you had to be prepared


00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:46.070
for it to potentially burn up. uh unless


00:18:46.080 --> 00:18:49.029
you put a heat shield on it and later


00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:51.510
those heat absorbent tiles that were


00:18:51.520 --> 00:18:54.230
made famous by the space shuttle. And my


00:18:54.240 --> 00:18:55.990
son has actually got one of those tiles


00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:58.549
at his place because he got it as a


00:18:58.559 --> 00:19:00.710
secret Santa through um one of the


00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:02.470
social media websites when they used to


00:19:02.480 --> 00:19:05.270
do that. Um and the warning came, do not


00:19:05.280 --> 00:19:07.350
lick the tile. Apparently, it's very


00:19:07.360 --> 00:19:11.830
toxic. Um, so, um, that's how it's been


00:19:11.840 --> 00:19:13.669
done to date, but now they've come up


00:19:13.679 --> 00:19:17.950
with a new idea that basically involves


00:19:17.960 --> 00:19:21.029
spacecraft sweating to stay cool as they


00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:23.350
come back into the atmosphere. This is


00:19:23.360 --> 00:19:24.510
really


00:19:24.520 --> 00:19:26.789
fascinating. Uh, it it it's


00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:28.310
extraordinary. Yeah. And and what you've


00:19:28.320 --> 00:19:31.830
said is absolutely right. the um the uh


00:19:31.840 --> 00:19:34.950
the traditional uh heat shield is called


00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:37.029
an ablative shield because it ablates


00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:39.909
the heat takes it away. Uh and that


00:19:39.919 --> 00:19:43.990
means that you only use them once. So um


00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:46.310
that's an issue for example with the


00:19:46.320 --> 00:19:48.549
Orion capsule which is um going to be


00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:50.630
reused. This is the one that will take


00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:54.070
astronauts to the moon. Um uh and um


00:19:54.080 --> 00:19:56.950
it's a pretty large piece of kit and


00:19:56.960 --> 00:19:58.710
every time you reuse it, you've got to


00:19:58.720 --> 00:20:00.470
replace that ablative shield that's on


00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:02.390
the or ablative shield, how however you


00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:03.909
pronounce it, it's on the back of the


00:20:03.919 --> 00:20:05.430
spacecraft. That's the bit that burns


00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:09.430
away as the spacecraft re-enters. Uh so


00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:12.630
um could you find a way of doing this uh


00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:15.990
which was essentially reusable uh


00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:19.350
something else that would uh that would


00:20:19.360 --> 00:20:21.110
actually protect the spacecraft from the


00:20:21.120 --> 00:20:23.990
intense heat of re-entry and it's a team


00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:27.270
at Texas&M University uh partnering with


00:20:27.280 --> 00:20:30.430
a a private concern called Canopy


00:20:30.440 --> 00:20:34.390
Aerospace and they've basically uh


00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:38.070
developed a 3D printed substance


00:20:38.080 --> 00:20:42.390
um that releases gas uh when you've got


00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:47.110
the heat of re-entry. Uh and the reason


00:20:47.120 --> 00:20:49.549
that's interesting is that


00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:54.070
gas has a very low conductivity of heat.


00:20:54.080 --> 00:20:56.950
Uh unlike, you know, a piece of metal or


00:20:56.960 --> 00:20:58.470
something like that which conducts heat


00:20:58.480 --> 00:21:00.870
very very well, gas is pretty poor at


00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:03.750
conducting heat. Uh and it's actually


00:21:03.760 --> 00:21:07.430
why you know you've got um a lot of uh


00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:09.590
you know why putting putting putting air


00:21:09.600 --> 00:21:11.510
in the space between your in inner and


00:21:11.520 --> 00:21:13.350
outside walls provides a bit of heat


00:21:13.360 --> 00:21:15.430
insulation and things of that sort. It's


00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:19.669
uh it's it's um a good heat insulator.


00:21:19.679 --> 00:21:22.549
So, if you can make something that will


00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:27.350
release gas as it enters the space as it


00:21:27.360 --> 00:21:29.510
as the spacecraft enters the atmosphere,


00:21:29.520 --> 00:21:31.350
then you might well find that you've got


00:21:31.360 --> 00:21:34.549
a situation where you you've got


00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:36.470
something that's effectively reusable


00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:38.870
and that you don't have to replace every


00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:41.430
time. And it and the material itself is


00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:45.909
a it's a 3D printed silicon carbide. uh


00:21:45.919 --> 00:21:49.510
and it is strong and I'm quoting here


00:21:49.520 --> 00:21:50.510
from the


00:21:50.520 --> 00:21:53.430
um space.com article about this which is


00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:56.070
a very nice description uh written by


00:21:56.080 --> 00:21:59.270
Samantha Matthew a few days ago or a day


00:21:59.280 --> 00:22:03.510
or so ago. Uh it's uh it's designed to


00:22:03.520 --> 00:22:05.590
be strong enough to withstand extreme


00:22:05.600 --> 00:22:07.990
atmospheric pressures yet poor enough


00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:11.590
for the coolant to sweat through. Uh and


00:22:11.600 --> 00:22:13.430
uh she says prototypes are being tested


00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:14.950
at the university to evaluate the


00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:17.430
material's ability to sweat and how well


00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:20.029
the gas that is released insulates a


00:22:20.039 --> 00:22:23.830
spacecraft. Uh so it is yeah it's um


00:22:23.840 --> 00:22:25.350
it's a really interesting step. You


00:22:25.360 --> 00:22:28.350
know, it's um what struck me about this


00:22:28.360 --> 00:22:31.029
is we've been using these ablative


00:22:31.039 --> 00:22:34.549
shields since well the Mercury capsule


00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:39.070
back in 1960 whenever it was 62 I think


00:22:39.080 --> 00:22:44.070
Mercury maybe 63. Um and they're still


00:22:44.080 --> 00:22:45.990
being used. They're still on the Orion


00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:48.070
capsule which is just a giant version of


00:22:48.080 --> 00:22:50.950
Mercury in some ways. Uh, and it's great


00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:52.630
to see people thinking outside the box


00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:54.630
as to whether we can find better ways to


00:22:54.640 --> 00:22:57.110
do this and actually create um, you


00:22:57.120 --> 00:23:00.149
know, create new materials given where


00:23:00.159 --> 00:23:02.070
we've got to today in things like 3D


00:23:02.080 --> 00:23:04.310
printing. Uh, create new materials that


00:23:04.320 --> 00:23:06.630
can do the job better. Yeah. I suppose


00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:08.549
the only way to really test this would


00:23:08.559 --> 00:23:11.990
be to create this this new form of


00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:14.230
shielding and send one up and bring it


00:23:14.240 --> 00:23:16.470
back and see if it survives basically.


00:23:16.480 --> 00:23:19.110
And that's um you wouldn't want to sort


00:23:19.120 --> 00:23:21.510
of um go up there unchecked and go,


00:23:21.520 --> 00:23:23.830
"Okay, we're going to test this new


00:23:23.840 --> 00:23:25.750
Yeah.


00:23:25.760 --> 00:23:27.190
No, you wouldn't you wouldn't want that.


00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:29.669
Um they there's a they've used hyper


00:23:29.679 --> 00:23:33.029
hypersonic uh wind tunnels to test it.


00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:34.630
So, and these are things that blow the


00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:36.870
wind along at several times the speed of


00:23:36.880 --> 00:23:38.230
sound. And so, they've they've got a


00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:39.750
good idea that this is going to work, I


00:23:39.760 --> 00:23:41.990
think. Yeah. As we've seen though with


00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:43.830
the space shuttle, all it takes is a


00:23:43.840 --> 00:23:48.149
tiny little crack in a tile to cause a a


00:23:48.159 --> 00:23:50.630
major catastrophe. Yeah, I'll never


00:23:50.640 --> 00:23:54.549
forget that. Um but um I I would imagine


00:23:54.559 --> 00:23:56.630
with a a heat shield type of approach


00:23:56.640 --> 00:23:59.830
like this, the gas that too could be


00:23:59.840 --> 00:24:02.070
exposed if if one of the vents or


00:24:02.080 --> 00:24:03.669
whatever it is they use to release the


00:24:03.679 --> 00:24:05.510
gas fails.


00:24:05.520 --> 00:24:08.630
Yes, I I I guess that's right. there'll


00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:10.549
always be um you know some sort of


00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:13.190
failure uh possibility


00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:15.750
uh and the trick is to reduce those as


00:24:15.760 --> 00:24:19.190
much as possible. Indeed. Uh well uh it


00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:20.630
will be really interesting to see how


00:24:20.640 --> 00:24:23.830
this develops. It it could be one of the


00:24:23.840 --> 00:24:27.029
um the big leaps forward in terms of


00:24:27.039 --> 00:24:28.870
getting spacecraft back into Earth


00:24:28.880 --> 00:24:32.549
without having to constantly regenerate


00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:34.789
um shields because uh that's what


00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:36.310
happens at the moment once a heat shield


00:24:36.320 --> 00:24:38.470
is has been used. you can't use it


00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:40.470
again. It's the same with the tiles on


00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:42.630
the space shuttle. You you have to


00:24:42.640 --> 00:24:44.230
replace them after every mission


00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:47.669
apparently. Uh this could be a renewable


00:24:47.679 --> 00:24:49.669
resource, a renewable approach to the


00:24:49.679 --> 00:24:51.990
the whole thing, which obviously would


00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:54.630
reduce costs ultimately and it's still


00:24:54.640 --> 00:24:56.669
very expensive to get up


00:24:56.679 --> 00:24:58.870
there, send out your payload or


00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:01.510
whatever, and then get the the hardware


00:25:01.520 --> 00:25:05.029
back to Earth. So, um it's uh it's been


00:25:05.039 --> 00:25:07.750
a long time coming. I mean, we're coming


00:25:07.760 --> 00:25:09.909
up on a 100 years of space flight and


00:25:09.919 --> 00:25:13.350
it's it's taken 3/4 of that time to come


00:25:13.360 --> 00:25:15.750
up with a new idea. So, fingers crossed


00:25:15.760 --> 00:25:17.909
that this is actually the answer and who


00:25:17.919 --> 00:25:19.510
knows what else they might figure out


00:25:19.520 --> 00:25:21.350
down the track that could do the job.


00:25:21.360 --> 00:25:24.470
So, um I I suppose a question that pops


00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:26.470
to mind, and this is this is sort of a a


00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:29.430
very dumb question, I suppose. Um why


00:25:29.440 --> 00:25:31.669
can't they just re-enter slowly to avoid


00:25:31.679 --> 00:25:33.830
the heat? I'm guessing I'm guessing you


00:25:33.840 --> 00:25:37.350
wouldn't get back in. Um, you're limited


00:25:37.360 --> 00:25:39.990
by, you know, the the mechanics of space


00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:43.029
flight. So, um, anything in space


00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:44.950
that's, you know, that's not coming back


00:25:44.960 --> 00:25:49.070
to Earth is orbiting at nearly 8


00:25:49.080 --> 00:25:52.470
kilometers/s. And uh that's why you need


00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:54.310
such a big rocket to put things into


00:25:54.320 --> 00:25:56.230
orbit because you've got to not only get


00:25:56.240 --> 00:25:59.430
the height uh to two or 300 kilometers,


00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:01.710
but also to push it into this high


00:26:01.720 --> 00:26:03.830
velocity with respect to the Earth's


00:26:03.840 --> 00:26:06.549
surface. And when you come back, you


00:26:06.559 --> 00:26:08.070
you've somehow got to dump that


00:26:08.080 --> 00:26:10.070
velocity. You've got to kill it somehow.


00:26:10.080 --> 00:26:13.110
Now, you know, I do remember when I used


00:26:13.120 --> 00:26:15.669
to read Dandere, the uh pilot of the


00:26:15.679 --> 00:26:18.870
future in the Eagle. They they used um


00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:20.789
what they called reactor rockets. So,


00:26:20.799 --> 00:26:24.070
you had the spacecraft was in in orbit


00:26:24.080 --> 00:26:26.710
and then they uh the command that


00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:29.590
Captain Dandere said was blow reactors


00:26:29.600 --> 00:26:32.230
and that was forwardfiring rockets that


00:26:32.240 --> 00:26:34.230
slowed the spacecraft down. And that's


00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:37.350
what they still do. They fire forward


00:26:37.360 --> 00:26:39.750
firing rockets to slow the spacecraft


00:26:39.760 --> 00:26:42.549
down. But unless you've got the same


00:26:42.559 --> 00:26:44.310
amount of fuel as you used to put it up


00:26:44.320 --> 00:26:47.430
there, you can't use that forward firing


00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:49.909
rocket to gently land it on the planet's


00:26:49.919 --> 00:26:51.510
surface. You've got to have something


00:26:51.520 --> 00:26:53.190
else. And that something else is a


00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:55.350
braing, which is using the atmosphere to


00:26:55.360 --> 00:26:57.430
slow the spacecraft down. And that's


00:26:57.440 --> 00:26:59.269
traditionally what what has been used.


00:26:59.279 --> 00:27:00.950
It's the only way we have available at


00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:02.390
the moment until somebody invents


00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:04.549
something that doesn't need as much fuel


00:27:04.559 --> 00:27:06.630
to slow you down as as it takes you up


00:27:06.640 --> 00:27:09.350
there. Well, that time will probably


00:27:09.360 --> 00:27:12.310
come. But uh now, for now, making your


00:27:12.320 --> 00:27:15.269
spacecraft sweat could be uh the new


00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:17.430
approach. And if you uh are interested


00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:19.669
in that story, uh as Fred said, it's at


00:27:19.679 --> 00:27:23.830
space.com.


00:27:23.840 --> 00:27:26.310
Okay, we checked all four systems with


00:27:26.320 --> 00:27:29.909
the space nets. Okay, Fred, our final


00:27:29.919 --> 00:27:33.430
story today is a very scary one because


00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:35.590
um we might not be here next week or


00:27:35.600 --> 00:27:38.710
maybe it's a billion years. I always get


00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:42.149
the two mixed up. Uh but um on a serious


00:27:42.159 --> 00:27:44.549
note, uh some Dutch scientists have come


00:27:44.559 --> 00:27:47.190
up with a a new theory as to when the


00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:50.950
universe will end, and it is a heck of a


00:27:50.960 --> 00:27:53.190
lot sooner than we than we originally


00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:58.549
thought. If they are right,


00:27:58.559 --> 00:28:00.470
Indeed it is. Uh so here are the


00:28:00.480 --> 00:28:03.669
numbers. Okay. Uh because we might as


00:28:03.679 --> 00:28:07.590
well start with that. We used to think


00:28:07.600 --> 00:28:12.590
that the universe would die in 10 to the


00:28:12.600 --> 00:28:16.149
power years. So that is a one with 1100


00:28:16.159 --> 00:28:18.470
zeros after it. That's how long we


00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:22.870
thought it would take to die. The new uh


00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:27.070
calculation is only it's a mere 10 ^ 78


00:28:27.080 --> 00:28:31.029
years and that's 10 followed by sorry a


00:28:31.039 --> 00:28:34.950
one followed by 78 zeros. Uh look that's


00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:37.669
a one heck of a difference isn't it?


00:28:37.679 --> 00:28:40.149
It's it's factor of more than 10


00:28:40.159 --> 00:28:41.669
different


00:28:41.679 --> 00:28:43.750
uh it's a factor of more than 10 in


00:28:43.760 --> 00:28:46.149
exponent which means that it's very much


00:28:46.159 --> 00:28:49.029
different. It's um so yes, the universe


00:28:49.039 --> 00:28:51.029
has only got really a brief period of 10


00:28:51.039 --> 00:28:54.230
to the 78 years to last. Um but let's


00:28:54.240 --> 00:28:56.789
cut to the reason why these scientists


00:28:56.799 --> 00:29:00.710
are uh making these calculations.


00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:02.830
They're scientists actually in the


00:29:02.840 --> 00:29:05.990
Netherlands. Uh and what they've done is


00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:10.070
they've looked at Hawking radiation. Uh


00:29:10.080 --> 00:29:13.510
and that is the the trick to this this


00:29:13.520 --> 00:29:16.710
whole calculation. Hawking radiation is


00:29:16.720 --> 00:29:19.110
uh as we know the radiation that leaks


00:29:19.120 --> 00:29:22.710
from a black hole uh which is a quantum


00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:25.430
physics effect because relativity says


00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:27.110
nothing can come out of a black hole but


00:29:27.120 --> 00:29:28.710
quantum mechanics says well they can


00:29:28.720 --> 00:29:30.510
evaporate very very


00:29:30.520 --> 00:29:34.149
slowly and they do uh there's all the


00:29:34.159 --> 00:29:35.909
evidence suggests that Hawking radiation


00:29:35.919 --> 00:29:37.990
is a real thing and so what these


00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:39.990
calculations are about is how long it


00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:42.389
takes everything in the universe to come


00:29:42.399 --> 00:29:44.630
to an end by Hawking radi


00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:46.470
Um, and they don't just cover black


00:29:46.480 --> 00:29:50.310
holes, they cover everything. They cover


00:29:50.320 --> 00:29:52.710
um neutron stars, which are kind of


00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:54.389
failed black holes. They cover white


00:29:54.399 --> 00:29:55.909
dwarf stars, which are kind of failed


00:29:55.919 --> 00:29:59.350
neutron stars. Um, and these all have,


00:29:59.360 --> 00:30:03.110
um, a Hawking age. And I think actually,


00:30:03.120 --> 00:30:05.630
um, the original calculation of 10 to


00:30:05.640 --> 00:30:09.830
the,00 years um, was, uh, basically


00:30:09.840 --> 00:30:11.909
coming from just the lifetime of white


00:30:11.919 --> 00:30:13.909
dwarf stars.


00:30:13.919 --> 00:30:19.630
But uh the new calculation have uh have


00:30:19.640 --> 00:30:24.789
um essentially said uh the the decay


00:30:24.799 --> 00:30:30.149
time for white dwarfs is uh sooner than


00:30:30.159 --> 00:30:32.470
we thought. Uh I think actually the


00:30:32.480 --> 00:30:34.630
white dwarf decay time originally didn't


00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:36.389
include Hawking radiation. I think it


00:30:36.399 --> 00:30:38.389
was just how long it takes to cool down


00:30:38.399 --> 00:30:41.430
to a completely inert object. So um the


00:30:41.440 --> 00:30:44.430
new calculation takes into account uh


00:30:44.440 --> 00:30:48.710
the basics of Hawking radiation. Um


00:30:48.720 --> 00:30:52.389
they've they've got um some nice other


00:30:52.399 --> 00:30:55.909
figures as well because uh they can they


00:30:55.919 --> 00:30:59.830
can work out how long neutron stars take


00:30:59.840 --> 00:31:04.470
to decay. That's 10 ^ 67 years. um they


00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:07.909
can work out how long the moon will take


00:31:07.919 --> 00:31:11.909
to evaporate by human uh sorry by


00:31:11.919 --> 00:31:14.070
hawking radiation and how long it will


00:31:14.080 --> 00:31:16.549
take a human to evaporate


00:31:16.559 --> 00:31:18.789
and those figures are respectively well


00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:21.909
they're the same 10 ^ 90 so you and I as


00:31:21.919 --> 00:31:24.549
we sit here Andrew


00:31:24.559 --> 00:31:27.990
uh we will evaporate in 10 the^ 90 years


00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:29.870
which means we actually outlast the


00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:32.149
universe because the universe is going


00:31:32.159 --> 00:31:35.909
to evaporate in 10 to the 78 years. Uh


00:31:35.919 --> 00:31:38.470
so we're we're doing well there. How can


00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:40.310
we outlast the universe? I'm not sure


00:31:40.320 --> 00:31:43.509
what the answer to that is.


00:31:43.519 --> 00:31:46.149
Yeah. Well, um nothing could if the


00:31:46.159 --> 00:31:47.990
universe comes to a grinding halt,


00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:49.710
that's the end of everything, isn't it?


00:31:49.720 --> 00:31:52.070
Although to qualify this, you've got to


00:31:52.080 --> 00:31:53.909
accept that um they're talking about the


00:31:53.919 --> 00:31:56.710
the fading out of everything. That's


00:31:56.720 --> 00:31:58.549
correct. But the universe will still be


00:31:58.559 --> 00:32:00.549
there. It'll just be dead in unless


00:32:00.559 --> 00:32:03.830
unless uh the you know, the accelerated


00:32:03.840 --> 00:32:05.509
expansion of the universe results in the


00:32:05.519 --> 00:32:07.750
big rip, which could come a lot sooner


00:32:07.760 --> 00:32:10.470
than those evaporation times. So, you're


00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:12.230
quite right. This is assuming nothing


00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:13.590
else happens in the universe. The


00:32:13.600 --> 00:32:15.750
universe is as boring as anything. Uh,


00:32:15.760 --> 00:32:19.029
and things just uh evaporate by Hawking


00:32:19.039 --> 00:32:20.950
radiation. That's the the numbers that


00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:22.950
you get. Yeah. And and there was one


00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:24.470
other thing we left out of that and that


00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:27.029
was the um the um evaporation of brown


00:32:27.039 --> 00:32:29.669
dwarfs um because they're failed Disney


00:32:29.679 --> 00:32:32.710
actors. So, got to take that into


00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:35.350
account, too. And that only takes 88


00:32:35.360 --> 00:32:38.549
years. Okay. I point that out. Very,


00:32:38.559 --> 00:32:40.549
very good. That's a neat calculation. I


00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:42.149
think you should write that's up to the


00:32:42.159 --> 00:32:45.110
conver conversation, Andrew.


00:32:45.120 --> 00:32:47.990
Oh, it's terrible joke. Horrible. Yeah.


00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:50.389
Um, no, but it is uh rather fascinating.


00:32:50.399 --> 00:32:52.470
Um, so do we know I don't know if you


00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:54.549
said it in number of years what 10 to


00:32:54.559 --> 00:32:58.750
the 78 actually means for the universe?


00:32:58.760 --> 00:33:01.830
Uh, yeah. Well, yes. Uh, it just means


00:33:01.840 --> 00:33:04.630
one followed by 78 zeros. It's a long


00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:07.750
time. Still a long time. Yeah. And, um,


00:33:07.760 --> 00:33:09.669
we should be right to pay the the water


00:33:09.679 --> 00:33:11.750
rates next week then. That's right. I


00:33:11.760 --> 00:33:14.149
mean, you know, put it in perspective.


00:33:14.159 --> 00:33:16.029
Uh, the Earth is probably going to get


00:33:16.039 --> 00:33:19.830
melted within maybe four billion years.


00:33:19.840 --> 00:33:23.830
What's that? 4 * 10 9 years. So uh yeah


00:33:23.840 --> 00:33:27.350
that's uh that's that's going to be a


00:33:27.360 --> 00:33:29.590
much more immediate uh problem for us


00:33:29.600 --> 00:33:31.590
than the evaporation of everything by


00:33:31.600 --> 00:33:33.830
hawking radius. That's assuming humanity


00:33:33.840 --> 00:33:36.389
has actually survived that long which is


00:33:36.399 --> 00:33:38.470
a totally different Yes we might


00:33:38.480 --> 00:33:40.870
argument theory whatever you like. Yeah.


00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:43.350
All right. Uh that story available


00:33:43.360 --> 00:33:46.269
through fizz.org


00:33:46.279 --> 00:33:48.470
phys.org if you want to read up on it.


00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:50.789
It's really really interesting. Uh, and


00:33:50.799 --> 00:33:52.950
that brings us to the end. Fred, thank


00:33:52.960 --> 00:33:55.110
you very much. Pleasure, Andrew, as


00:33:55.120 --> 00:33:56.950
always. And we'll speak again soon. I'm


00:33:56.960 --> 00:33:59.590
sure we will. And, uh, looking forward


00:33:59.600 --> 00:34:01.269
to it. And don't forget to visit us


00:34:01.279 --> 00:34:04.070
online at our website and visit the shop


00:34:04.080 --> 00:34:05.430
while you're there or just have a look


00:34:05.440 --> 00:34:08.109
around. And that's at


00:34:08.119 --> 00:34:10.510
spacenutpodcast.com or


00:34:10.520 --> 00:34:12.550
spacenuts.io. Uh, I would have said


00:34:12.560 --> 00:34:14.389
thanks to Hugh in the studio, but he


00:34:14.399 --> 00:34:16.149
couldn't be with us today because he he


00:34:16.159 --> 00:34:19.190
reached the age of 10 to the 78. And


00:34:19.200 --> 00:34:22.310
that was the end of that from me, Andrew


00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:23.750
Dunley. Thanks for your company. We'll


00:34:23.760 --> 00:34:25.349
see you on the next episode of Space


00:34:25.359 --> 00:34:28.230
Nuts. Bye-bye. Space Nuts. You'll be


00:34:28.240 --> 00:34:32.069
listening to the Space Nuts podcast,


00:34:32.079 --> 00:34:35.030
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00:34:35.040 --> 00:34:37.669
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00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:40.589
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00:34:40.599 --> 00:34:43.030
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