K2 18b, Life’s Potential & the Mysteries of the Hycean World | Space Nuts: Astronomy Insights &...

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Kind: captions
Language: en

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Welcome back to another exciting episode


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of Space Nuts. I am your temporary host


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and this will be my last week here


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before you get your beloved Andrew


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Dunley back. But my name is Heidi Compo


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and I am here with the wonderful,


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delightful, brilliant Professor Fred


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Watson, astronomer at large.


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Oh, Heidi, you can you can come again.


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It's very, very generous introduction


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there. Thank you very much. Oh, well,


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we're just excited to have you here,


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Fred. And yes, you are all listening to


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another episode of Space Nuts. 15


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seconds. Guidance is internal. 10 9


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Ignition sequence start. Space Nuts. 5 4


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3 2 1 2 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1 Space Nuts.


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Astronauts report. It feels good. And


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today on this episode of Space Nuts, we


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are going to be first and foremost


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talking about the conversation that is


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on everybody's mind. It's been the hot


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topic in space science lately. And no,


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it is not what you're thinking. It is


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actually talking about K2


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18b, the planet. And we are going to be


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talking about all of the news that's


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real versus what's kind of fake. There's


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probably a lot of misinformation out


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there. So, Fred, let's start with just


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breaking down what's the big news about


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this planet. Uh, yeah, it's big news


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that's been, I guess, a fairly long time


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coming because this planet has uh


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captured the interest of astronomers and


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astrobiologists in particular, and


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they're the scientists who study the


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origin of life and whether there is life


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elsewhere in the universe. Um, because


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uh first of all, its uh orbits in its in


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its uh home star. The planet orbits in


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its its stars Goldilock zone. Uh the


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Goldilock zone where it's not too hot


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and it's not too cold, but it's just


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right for liquid water to exist. Uh the


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star itself, K28, is uh a red dwarf


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star, which means it's much cooler than


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our sun. And so this planet orbits


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closer to its to its parent star than we


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do. But it still has the right


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temperature for liquid water to exist.


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And in fact, it's been hypothesized that


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this was what's called a hyen world, uh,


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which is a world, uh, which is covered


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with a liquid water ocean, uh, and


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probably a, um, a hydrogen atmosphere.


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We we we don't know for certain that


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these worlds exist, but they fit the


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modeling. And so, um, the evidence seems


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to be coming from


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K28b, uh, that it's a world like this.


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And partly that's due to earlier


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observations which showed uh


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concentrations of both carbon dioxide


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and methane in its atmosphere. Uh so


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that has sort of put this planet on the


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um kind of hit list of astrobiologists.


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Uh you know it's made them aware of the


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fact that it's a planet that could just


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possibly harbor life. And so, uh, the


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group of scientists who have kind of hit


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the headlines with this story, uh, have


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used the, uh, they've been using the


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James Webb Space Telescope, uh, our kind


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of currently best tool for doing this


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kind of thing, uh, in order to probe


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more deeply into the atmosphere of K28b.


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And by more deeply, I mean in more


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detail uh, and with greater sensitivity.


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The James Webb telescope's a 6 and a


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half meter diameter telescope. So it's


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got good light p gathering power. Uh but


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it has to be said and this is the caveat


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at the beginning of all all discussions


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of this kind that the observations that


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these scientists are making are very


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very difficult ones. Uh because what you


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have to do is look at the light from the


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star since you don't see the planet


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itself. All you can see is the combined


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light of the star and the planet. You


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look at the light from the star. you uh


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examine it with the spectrograph. That's


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the device that breaks the light up into


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its rainbow of colors and gives us this


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barcode of information about what's in


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the atmosphere of the star. And then uh


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when the planet passes in front of the


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star, you've got a tiny additional


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component that comes from starlight


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which is passing through the atmosphere


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of the planet itself. So there's this


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tiny little ring of atmosphere that is


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superimposed on the disc of the star. We


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don't see any of that, but we know


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that's what's happening. And in that um


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in the atmosphere,


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uh the that basically uh puts an extra


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dimension into the spectrum. It gives


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you a little bit more information in the


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spectrum and you can deduce what is


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coming from the atmosphere of the planet


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and what's coming from the star itself.


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And so uh to cut to the chase, the new


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observations uh seem to confirm at a


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confidence level they say of 99.7%


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uh which is pretty confident uh but they


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seem to confirm earlier observations


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that hinted at two chemicals in the


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atmosphere of the planet K28b


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uh which are usually and certainly


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always on earth uh they are generated by


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living organisms. Uh the two chemicals


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are dime dimethile sulfide and dimethile


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dulfide. Two with very similar names. Uh


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organic chemicals, carbon containing


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chemicals. As I said on earth they come


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from living organisms. And so uh that is


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the story as we know it to date. And of


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course the excitement comes from the


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fact that if those chemicals are only


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you know generated by living organisms


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on earth maybe the same is true on this


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so-called or possible highan world. Now


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to to to put a sober touch on it. Um uh


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it's really difficult uh first of all


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it's really difficult to make the


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observations and there are still some


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people who think that might go away that


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the dimethile sulfide and dimethile dul


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sulfide aren't really there and what


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will happen on that front is more


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observations will be made certainly with


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the James Webb telescope and in a few


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years time we hope with the extremely


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large telescope that European monster


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that's being built in the northern


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Andes. Uh so that's the first thing. The


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second thing is, can these chemicals


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only be produced by life? Are there


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other explanations? And a number of


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scientists have raised that as a


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possibility. They're saying, well, it's


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so hard to pick a biomarker, something


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that is an absolutely dead certain uh


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piece of evidence about biology. Uh it's


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very hard to pick things like, you know,


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that that are that are um give you a a


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rock solid case that you've got living


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organisms. And so what they're saying is


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maybe there are other natural processes


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that don't involve life, abiotic as we


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call them, abiotic processes that uh co


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cause these chemicals to exist but don't


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come from life. And one suggestion is


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volcanic activity of a kind that we're


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not yet familiar with. Uh and so uh I


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loved one of the comments in one of the


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news articles. You might have seen it


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too, Heidi. Uh that this might uh not be


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Vulcans but might be vulcanism. Uh which


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I thought was quite


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neat. Uh so so that's the story so far.


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Um and it's one of these stories that I


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think will evolve over time as it has


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done already and maybe we'll cover it on


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Space Nots when the news breaks if it


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does.


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So tell me what the timeline of this


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evolution could look like. Uh we we are


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building satellites that can give us


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more information, but we're really kind


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of just holding here. We're sitting here


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um on the edge of our seats waiting for


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this information. So the satellites will


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tell us more, but with how far away this


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planet is, and I I forget how far away


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you said it was, how long would it take


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for us to get a probe there to even


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collect soil samples? That's a really


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good question. Um its distance


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is 124 light years. So, with the best


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available, the fastest available


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spacecraft we have at present, we'd be


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looking at more than a million years to


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get there. Um, I did the calculation. I


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did it in my head actually, so it might


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be wrong, but it is at least a million


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years. It probably So, remember that


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part earlier when I said the brilliant,


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wonderful, that's that's what we're


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talking about right here.


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Well, yeah, it's um I'm thinking of, you


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know, it would take about 60,000 years


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to with a with a spacecraft like New


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Horizons, which for a while was the


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fastest uh man humanmade object


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traveling through the solar system. Um


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it would take about 60,000 years to get


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to Alpha Centuri, the nearest of the


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stars, and that's four light years away.


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So, you can do the kind of do the


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calculation. Yeah. So, that's you know,


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that's not happening anytime soon. But,


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you know, with a lot of the new


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technologies coming out, maybe we will


00:08:55.279 --> 00:08:59.030
see the possibility of soil sampling um


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in our lifetime. I know I was just at


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the um Texas Space Grant Consortium


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design showcase this past weekend and


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there were some really really cool


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engineering ideas being presented with


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um nuclear um propulsion and lots of


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other really cool things that were


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really kind of just on the fringe of


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that may may we may have those


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breakthroughs very soon.


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You're right. And I mean um in fact


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breakthrough is the word because um the


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breakthrough funding body uh has set up


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it's a foundation uh founded by um


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gentleman if I remember rightly his name


00:09:33.839 --> 00:09:36.230
is Yuri Milner Yuri Milner who is a


00:09:36.240 --> 00:09:38.870
Russian billionaire who set up these


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foundations one of which is called


00:09:40.800 --> 00:09:42.790
breakthrough starshot which looks at the


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possibility of using light sails to


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accelerate a spacecraft to something


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like half the speed of light. Uh and if


00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:52.070
you could do that then you can get to


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the nearest star in well eight years


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rather than four years. Four years it


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takes light to come here. Eight years


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would do it. Uh then you've got to wait


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four years for the signals to come back


00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:04.870
to show us what we've found there. Uh


00:10:04.880 --> 00:10:06.389
but yeah as you say a lot of


00:10:06.399 --> 00:10:09.350
technologies are are in the mix. Very


00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:11.670
briefly though, um what will happen I


00:10:11.680 --> 00:10:14.230
think on the nearer time scale uh more


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James Web telescope observations I'm


00:10:16.640 --> 00:10:20.790
sure of K 218b and as I said the when


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the uh extremely large telescope is with


00:10:23.279 --> 00:10:26.150
it 39.3 meter diameter mirror comes


00:10:26.160 --> 00:10:28.630
online in 2028 you can bet your life


00:10:28.640 --> 00:10:30.790
this will be one of the first targets uh


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that they'll turn their spectrographs on


00:10:32.320 --> 00:10:34.949
to just to see what else is there.


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That's all really really exciting. Fred,


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I am wondering if you could tell tell me


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and some of our other listeners who are


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just maybe curious a little bit about


00:10:44.000 --> 00:10:46.550
the operational side of these things.


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When we get some cool breakthroughs with


00:10:49.440 --> 00:10:52.470
this, do the researchers have to apply


00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:54.949
for grants with telescope time or


00:10:54.959 --> 00:10:56.710
satellite time to be able to look at


00:10:56.720 --> 00:10:58.630
these planets?


00:10:58.640 --> 00:11:01.670
Yep, that's how it works. uh and those


00:11:01.680 --> 00:11:05.190
those applications uh are generally


00:11:05.200 --> 00:11:07.509
speaking uh you know that there will be


00:11:07.519 --> 00:11:10.670
a facility like the James Web and an


00:11:10.680 --> 00:11:13.350
independent entity which will look at


00:11:13.360 --> 00:11:15.430
the merits of the scientific proposals


00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:18.310
that have been put forward for


00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:20.550
observation on the James Web and they'll


00:11:20.560 --> 00:11:23.030
they'll basically give them their uh


00:11:23.040 --> 00:11:25.509
their time based on merit. It's quite


00:11:25.519 --> 00:11:27.190
it's almost a cutthroat process. It's


00:11:27.200 --> 00:11:29.670
very uh if you're a researcher and I


00:11:29.680 --> 00:11:31.910
used to do this myself years and years


00:11:31.920 --> 00:11:35.110
ago uh you you have to you kind of got


00:11:35.120 --> 00:11:36.790
you're holding your breath when when you


00:11:36.800 --> 00:11:38.630
know this committee is meeting and


00:11:38.640 --> 00:11:39.910
you're holding your breath for what the


00:11:39.920 --> 00:11:41.269
outcome is as to whether you're going to


00:11:41.279 --> 00:11:43.509
get your nights of time as it used to be


00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:45.110
on groundbased telescopes. I think they


00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:48.630
have uh hours of time on on JWST. You


00:11:48.640 --> 00:11:50.230
get two or three hours and you've done


00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:54.150
very well. Um uh yeah. So, so it is it's


00:11:54.160 --> 00:11:57.430
a a pretty egalitarian process. It's um


00:11:57.440 --> 00:11:59.829
really just based on merit uh generally


00:11:59.839 --> 00:12:01.910
speaking rather than who can pay or


00:12:01.920 --> 00:12:04.550
anything like that. Yeah. I always I


00:12:04.560 --> 00:12:06.310
always think of the movie Contact and I


00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:07.829
think it's every scientist's dream to


00:12:07.839 --> 00:12:10.470
just have this uh wealthy benefactor


00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:12.629
with unlimited resources show up out of


00:12:12.639 --> 00:12:14.629
nowhere and give you unlimited telescope


00:12:14.639 --> 00:12:18.550
time. Yeah. Yeah.


00:12:18.560 --> 00:12:21.750
Roger. You're here also. space nuts.


00:12:21.760 --> 00:12:23.990
Well, you know, that is something that


00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:27.190
is very, very exciting. But as our next


00:12:27.200 --> 00:12:28.949
article says, you know, there are other


00:12:28.959 --> 00:12:31.190
big surprises out there. And this is not


00:12:31.200 --> 00:12:33.110
the only exciting thing happening in


00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:35.430
space. So, I wanted to kind of pivot to


00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:37.190
the next article that you had on the


00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:39.350
deck for today, which is talking about


00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:42.629
the perpendicular orbit around these


00:12:42.639 --> 00:12:44.550
pairs of stars. I mean, this kind of


00:12:44.560 --> 00:12:45.990
sounds almost like there's some black


00:12:46.000 --> 00:12:48.870
hole stuff going on here. Maybe there


00:12:48.880 --> 00:12:51.910
is. Uh yeah that's right. It's uh some


00:12:51.920 --> 00:12:54.230
results that have come from the European


00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:56.069
Southern Observatory which we've in


00:12:56.079 --> 00:12:57.670
indirectly just mentioned because


00:12:57.680 --> 00:12:59.829
they're they're the organization uh


00:12:59.839 --> 00:13:01.509
which is putting together the extremely


00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:03.990
large telescope at Sarah Amazon in


00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:06.550
northern Chile. uh about 10 kilometers


00:13:06.560 --> 00:13:09.430
from that site is the site of actually


00:13:09.440 --> 00:13:11.190
no it's about 20 kilometers from that


00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:13.269
site let me get it right uh is a


00:13:13.279 --> 00:13:15.030
mountain called Sarah Pararinal which


00:13:15.040 --> 00:13:17.590
has got what is currently the sort of


00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:20.949
largest set of telescopes uh and


00:13:20.959 --> 00:13:22.949
certainly the the most effective set of


00:13:22.959 --> 00:13:25.190
telescopes in the southern hemisphere uh


00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:28.150
the four telescopes of the VT the very


00:13:28.160 --> 00:13:30.949
large telescope and that is a very


00:13:30.959 --> 00:13:34.069
powerful facility and some results that


00:13:34.079 --> 00:13:37.269
have come from that uh actually uh


00:13:37.279 --> 00:13:40.069
carried out by researchers uh based uh


00:13:40.079 --> 00:13:41.590
at the University of Birmingham in the


00:13:41.600 --> 00:13:43.750
UK and they would have had to apply for


00:13:43.760 --> 00:13:46.069
time on these telescopes as as we've


00:13:46.079 --> 00:13:47.670
just been talking about and I know it's


00:13:47.680 --> 00:13:50.150
a very rigorous process. It's a quite a


00:13:50.160 --> 00:13:52.230
difficult thing to go through. Anyway,


00:13:52.240 --> 00:13:56.069
uh they have been looking at uh an


00:13:56.079 --> 00:13:58.710
object oh gosh, aren't we good at giving


00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:01.230
names to things? an object called


00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:05.310
2M151 0 open brackets A B close brackets


00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:09.189
B that's the name of this planet but it


00:14:09.199 --> 00:14:12.870
sounds like Elon Musk's kid oh yeah


00:14:12.880 --> 00:14:15.590
don't go there Heidi


00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:18.389
um it it's it's a planet that is in


00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:22.230
orbit around not one star but a pair of


00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:25.590
stars and that I'm sure would be


00:14:25.600 --> 00:14:27.990
familiar to you as a science fiction aic


00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:29.269
afficionado


00:14:29.279 --> 00:14:30.790
I never know how to pronounce that. Is


00:14:30.800 --> 00:14:34.389
it Tatooine? Tatooine. Tatooini.


00:14:34.399 --> 00:14:36.069
I think. Yeah, we think we've got it.


00:14:36.079 --> 00:14:38.870
Yes. Star Wars. The sand the sand desert


00:14:38.880 --> 00:14:42.790
planet. Yeah. So, a a planet orbiting a


00:14:42.800 --> 00:14:44.790
pair of stars. Well, that's exactly what


00:14:44.800 --> 00:14:46.550
2M1510


00:14:46.560 --> 00:14:50.069
etc. is doing. But the surprise that has


00:14:50.079 --> 00:14:53.990
come from this is uh the way in which it


00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:56.389
orbits is exactly as he said in the


00:14:56.399 --> 00:14:59.670
intro. We've got two stars which are in


00:14:59.680 --> 00:15:01.189
orbit around one another. It's what we


00:15:01.199 --> 00:15:04.069
call a binary system and these are very


00:15:04.079 --> 00:15:06.949
very common throughout our galaxy. Um in


00:15:06.959 --> 00:15:09.910
this case it's two brown dwarf stars.


00:15:09.920 --> 00:15:14.710
Again the um the stars that are cool and


00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:16.870
a bit like the ones we've one we've just


00:15:16.880 --> 00:15:18.550
been talking about with that other


00:15:18.560 --> 00:15:20.310
planet orbiting around it. So we're


00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:22.629
doing two planet stories this this week.


00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:26.949
Uh but this is curious um because uh the


00:15:26.959 --> 00:15:29.910
planet orbits the pair of stars in a


00:15:29.920 --> 00:15:32.870
plane perpendicular to the plane in


00:15:32.880 --> 00:15:34.949
which they orbit. If I can that might


00:15:34.959 --> 00:15:37.509
not be very clear but uh the the two


00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:39.670
stars orbit one another that defines a


00:15:39.680 --> 00:15:41.910
plane at right angles to that is the


00:15:41.920 --> 00:15:44.710
plane in which the planet orbits. It's


00:15:44.720 --> 00:15:48.670
what we call a polar orbit. Uh it's um


00:15:48.680 --> 00:15:50.949
it's something that's very hard to


00:15:50.959 --> 00:15:53.430
understand. And the reason why is that


00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:55.910
we think that when planets form around a


00:15:55.920 --> 00:16:00.629
star um they they form in a single plane


00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:03.910
which is usually the same plane as the


00:16:03.920 --> 00:16:05.829
as which the star is rotating in. In


00:16:05.839 --> 00:16:08.069
other words, the equatorial plane of the


00:16:08.079 --> 00:16:09.749
star and that's just because of the


00:16:09.759 --> 00:16:13.110
mechanism uh in which stars form. And


00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:15.269
now if you've got a binary pair of stars


00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:17.110
which are orbiting one another that


00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:19.509
defines a plane which probably had what


00:16:19.519 --> 00:16:21.749
we call a protolanetary disc in it where


00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:25.030
planets are being formed. Uh but somehow


00:16:25.040 --> 00:16:28.629
this planet is not part of that disc.


00:16:28.639 --> 00:16:32.629
And it it raises questions like um has


00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:35.350
it been captured from another solar


00:16:35.360 --> 00:16:38.150
system that passed by this pair of stars


00:16:38.160 --> 00:16:40.870
too close and their gravity grabbed uh


00:16:40.880 --> 00:16:42.870
hold of this planet put it into this


00:16:42.880 --> 00:16:46.230
weird weird orbit uh and and there it is


00:16:46.240 --> 00:16:50.389
as we find it today. Um I I just one


00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:54.550
quote from uh one of the authors. Uh I


00:16:54.560 --> 00:16:57.269
said um we reviewed all possible


00:16:57.279 --> 00:16:59.509
scenarios and the only one consistent


00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:01.350
with the data is a planet on a polar


00:17:01.360 --> 00:17:03.749
orbit about this binary. The discovery


00:17:03.759 --> 00:17:05.750
was serendipitous in the sense that our


00:17:05.760 --> 00:17:08.230
observations were not collected to seek


00:17:08.240 --> 00:17:10.710
such a planet or orbital configuration


00:17:10.720 --> 00:17:12.870
and as such it's a big surprise.


00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:14.390
Overall, I think this shows to us


00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:16.309
astronomers, but also to the public at


00:17:16.319 --> 00:17:18.470
large what is possible in the


00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:20.789
fascinating universe we inhabit. Quite


00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:23.029
poetic. I like what they've said there.


00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:25.990
Um, they'll be working on mechanisms for


00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:28.470
which this has occurred just to try and


00:17:28.480 --> 00:17:30.230
work out what the history of this


00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:33.029
unusual system is.


00:17:33.039 --> 00:17:34.789
Well, it does look pretty spectacular


00:17:34.799 --> 00:17:37.430
based off of the um I guess the artist


00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:39.270
renderings of what these orbital


00:17:39.280 --> 00:17:41.669
patterns would look like. And I guess,


00:17:41.679 --> 00:17:43.110
you know, this is another one of those


00:17:43.120 --> 00:17:45.190
things we'll see. And it's uh, you know,


00:17:45.200 --> 00:17:47.510
and it really makes me hope that we can


00:17:47.520 --> 00:17:49.270
continue to get plenty of funding for


00:17:49.280 --> 00:17:51.750
all the research that's going on because


00:17:51.760 --> 00:17:53.350
while what's going on, what's really


00:17:53.360 --> 00:17:56.750
exciting with um, uh,


00:17:56.760 --> 00:17:58.950
K218b, that's that's going to take away


00:17:58.960 --> 00:18:00.789
from telescope time going on with this


00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:05.750
orbit pattern, right? Yes. Yeah. I just


00:18:05.760 --> 00:18:08.870
extra. So, go ahead. No, sorry, Heidi.


00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:10.230
That is a really good point. you know


00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:13.270
that these resources are a limited uh


00:18:13.280 --> 00:18:16.230
they're a limited quantity. So typically


00:18:16.240 --> 00:18:17.830
uh on the telescope I used to work on


00:18:17.840 --> 00:18:19.590
the Anglo Australian telescope, the


00:18:19.600 --> 00:18:22.630
biggest one in Australia. Uh we were for


00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:24.950
every night on the telescope there were


00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:26.789
three or four different research groups


00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:29.830
wanting to use it. Uh so telescope time


00:18:29.840 --> 00:18:33.190
is a limited resource and if like I was


00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:35.669
several times you get washed out by bad


00:18:35.679 --> 00:18:38.310
weather uh then you've just got to start


00:18:38.320 --> 00:18:40.470
again from scratch uh and you know


00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:43.830
compete with uh with other other


00:18:43.840 --> 00:18:46.870
sometimes perhaps better um experiments


00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:48.630
that people want to do measurements that


00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:51.190
they want to make. So yes a limited a


00:18:51.200 --> 00:18:53.909
limited um commodity. uh the more


00:18:53.919 --> 00:18:56.710
telescopes we have, the better we can


00:18:56.720 --> 00:18:58.470
fulfill those requirements. But of


00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:00.070
course, the more expensive it becomes.


00:19:00.080 --> 00:19:02.070
And governments who tend to fund these


00:19:02.080 --> 00:19:04.390
things are not that generous when it


00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:07.270
comes to astronomical uh facilities


00:19:07.280 --> 00:19:08.789
compared with some of the more pressing


00:19:08.799 --> 00:19:11.669
demands on their public purses.


00:19:11.679 --> 00:19:13.270
Yeah. And that's all, you know, that's


00:19:13.280 --> 00:19:15.270
all something to consider what, you


00:19:15.280 --> 00:19:16.710
know, depending on every nation that


00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:18.230
you're a part of. But I mean, space is


00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:20.470
really becoming such a global economy


00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:22.150
and I know we have listeners from all


00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:24.310
over the world. So, you know, make sure


00:19:24.320 --> 00:19:25.909
that you're paying attention to what's


00:19:25.919 --> 00:19:28.789
going on in your country and how you can


00:19:28.799 --> 00:19:33.830
support the space industry as it grows.


00:19:33.840 --> 00:19:35.909
Okay, we checked all four systems and


00:19:35.919 --> 00:19:38.549
being with the go space nets. Um, and so


00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:39.750
it's kind of funny. I'm looking at our


00:19:39.760 --> 00:19:43.190
our our last article for today and um


00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:45.669
it's Easter Sunday for me and it is


00:19:45.679 --> 00:19:48.630
Monday morning for you. I always I still


00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:50.310
I don't I don't know if I will be able


00:19:50.320 --> 00:19:51.669
to live my whole life and still be able


00:19:51.679 --> 00:19:53.990
to wrap my head around the the time


00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:57.270
difference of Australians, but um my


00:19:57.280 --> 00:20:00.310
article for today and your article for


00:20:00.320 --> 00:20:02.870
yesterday, I guess it was the Lucy pro


00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:07.590
Lucy probe flew around um an asteroid


00:20:07.600 --> 00:20:10.150
and it looks like its name is Donald


00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:12.470
Johnson is the name of the asteroid.


00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:14.950
Yeah, Donald Johansson. Yeah, that's


00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:18.070
right. And it is a I really like this


00:20:18.080 --> 00:20:19.669
story actually because it touches lots


00:20:19.679 --> 00:20:22.390
of little quirky things. NASA is so


00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:26.230
great at picking names for the projects


00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:30.549
that they do. Um so what Lucy is about


00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:32.230
uh and this is a spacecraft. It was


00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:36.230
launched back in uh oh can't remember it


00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:40.470
was um 2021 I think or thereabouts. uh


00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:44.350
it's uh was launched uh in order to


00:20:44.360 --> 00:20:47.110
probe the what we call the Trojan


00:20:47.120 --> 00:20:49.590
asteroids and these are two clusters of


00:20:49.600 --> 00:20:52.950
asteroids uh which are in the same orbit


00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:57.669
as Jupiter but uh bunch 60° ahead of


00:20:57.679 --> 00:21:00.789
Jupiter in its orbit and 60° behind


00:21:00.799 --> 00:21:03.669
Jupiter in its orbit. So two lumps of


00:21:03.679 --> 00:21:05.510
asteroids and they come about because of


00:21:05.520 --> 00:21:08.630
these stable gravitational points that


00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:10.390
uh are beloved actually of space nuts


00:21:10.400 --> 00:21:12.070
listeners. We get so many questions on


00:21:12.080 --> 00:21:13.990
these. They're called the Lrange points


00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:16.070
named after the mathematician who who


00:21:16.080 --> 00:21:17.750
discovered them in the actually in the


00:21:17.760 --> 00:21:19.750
18th century discovered that they they


00:21:19.760 --> 00:21:22.070
should exist. Um and they collect


00:21:22.080 --> 00:21:24.870
debris. And so Jupiter has I think it's


00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:27.830
7,000 in one of those two points and


00:21:27.840 --> 00:21:29.750
9,000 in the other. It's a huge number


00:21:29.760 --> 00:21:32.950
of asteroids. Um there are the


00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:36.070
equivalent on uh objects in in around


00:21:36.080 --> 00:21:38.149
other planets or orbiting uh


00:21:38.159 --> 00:21:40.070
co-orbiterally with other planets but


00:21:40.080 --> 00:21:43.190
Jupiter's is the richest of the Trojan


00:21:43.200 --> 00:21:44.549
asteroids and of course that's because


00:21:44.559 --> 00:21:46.710
it's the biggest and most massive planet


00:21:46.720 --> 00:21:48.149
more massive than all the other planets


00:21:48.159 --> 00:21:50.950
put together. Um, now we've never


00:21:50.960 --> 00:21:54.230
visited a Trojan asteroid and it may be


00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:56.070
that they have a different sort of


00:21:56.080 --> 00:21:59.669
structure from the uh the normal


00:21:59.679 --> 00:22:01.590
asteroids that we find in the main


00:22:01.600 --> 00:22:03.190
asteroid belt. They might have different


00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:06.350
composition uh different


00:22:06.360 --> 00:22:08.630
uh different origins, different


00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:10.470
histories that we can interpret from


00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:11.990
measurements of their surfaces and


00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:14.070
things of that sort. And so the Lucy


00:22:14.080 --> 00:22:16.789
mission is going to visit uh Trojan


00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:20.470
asteroids, not just one but seven of


00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:22.870
them. Um so it's going to do a kind of


00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:25.029
grand tour and in fact I think it's six


00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:28.070
in one of the clouds of Trojans and one


00:22:28.080 --> 00:22:29.350
in the in the other one. I can't


00:22:29.360 --> 00:22:30.789
remember which way around it is. Quite


00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:33.270
the road trip. Yeah, it's a an absolute


00:22:33.280 --> 00:22:36.070
road trip. That's right. Um, but on the


00:22:36.080 --> 00:22:41.110
way they are flying by a a main belt


00:22:41.120 --> 00:22:42.789
asteroid, and that's the one that we're


00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:45.390
talking about, Donald Johansson. Number


00:22:45.400 --> 00:22:50.470
5246 is its number. Uh, now um the the


00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:54.950
backstory here is that Lucy got its name


00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:58.270
from that 3.2 million year old fossil


00:22:58.280 --> 00:23:01.230
skeleton of I wonder if I could say


00:23:01.240 --> 00:23:05.390
Oralopic Oralopithecus.


00:23:05.400 --> 00:23:08.590
Apharensis Lucy, you probably won't


00:23:08.600 --> 00:23:10.549
recall. Well, you definitely won't


00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:12.470
recall because you weren't born then,


00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:16.070
but back in 1974, this little homminid


00:23:16.080 --> 00:23:18.710
fossil was discovered in Africa, in


00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:22.750
Ethiopia, in fact. um and given the name


00:23:22.760 --> 00:23:26.430
Lucy by the the


00:23:26.440 --> 00:23:29.510
um basically the anthropologists


00:23:29.520 --> 00:23:31.990
uh and in fact paleo anthropologists who


00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:34.070
who dug up the skeleton and found it.


00:23:34.080 --> 00:23:36.070
They called it Lucy. And the reason they


00:23:36.080 --> 00:23:38.310
called it Lucy is because the whole time


00:23:38.320 --> 00:23:40.310
that they were doing the dig and uh


00:23:40.320 --> 00:23:42.390
talking about this wonderful fossil that


00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:44.789
they discovered that's only it's it's a


00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:47.029
a female fossil. It's only a few feet


00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:49.909
tall. Um, they were playing the Beatles


00:23:49.919 --> 00:23:52.070
Lucy in the Sky with diamonds the whole


00:23:52.080 --> 00:23:54.950
time that they were digging it up. And


00:23:54.960 --> 00:23:58.710
so, uh, they basically, so NASA picked


00:23:58.720 --> 00:24:03.110
up on this. They had a little nod to one


00:24:03.120 --> 00:24:04.950
of the in instruments that the


00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:08.310
spacecraft carries which uh has a


00:24:08.320 --> 00:24:10.950
fundamental part which is a disc of lab


00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:14.470
grown diamonds. So the spacecraft itself


00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:17.909
is carrying diamonds. Uh, so what else


00:24:17.919 --> 00:24:20.470
but to call it Lucy in the sky with


00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:23.990
diamonds. So that's a really nice touch.


00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:26.470
But the I thought the clincher was that


00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:27.909
the asteroid that they're visiting on


00:24:27.919 --> 00:24:29.510
the way, as you've said, is called


00:24:29.520 --> 00:24:32.230
Donald Johansson. Donald Johansson was


00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:35.590
the lead paleoanthro anthropologist on


00:24:35.600 --> 00:24:39.590
that uh on that dig to find Lucy. He's


00:24:39.600 --> 00:24:42.070
the person whose name is forever


00:24:42.080 --> 00:24:45.710
attached to the Lucy homminid and is his


00:24:45.720 --> 00:24:48.549
asteroid is sitting out there in space


00:24:48.559 --> 00:24:50.390
waiting for a visit by the Lucy


00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:51.669
spacecraft. I think it might have


00:24:51.679 --> 00:24:52.950
already happened actually as we're


00:24:52.960 --> 00:24:56.549
speaking. It was due uh on Sunday uh I


00:24:56.559 --> 00:24:59.269
think probably Houston time.


00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:02.070
So Donald finds Lucy and then Lucy finds


00:25:02.080 --> 00:25:04.470
Donald.


00:25:04.480 --> 00:25:07.190
That's a lovely Yeah. Yeah. cute uh cute


00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:09.590
little roundabout uh thing of just you


00:25:09.600 --> 00:25:11.430
know rocks and diamonds and all these


00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:14.149
fun little things in space. And what a


00:25:14.159 --> 00:25:16.230
what a fun backstory. Thank you so much


00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:18.310
for sharing that with us, Fred. So what


00:25:18.320 --> 00:25:20.070
do you what do you think that they're


00:25:20.080 --> 00:25:23.830
kind of expecting to or really hoping to


00:25:23.840 --> 00:25:28.470
find? So it will be a flyby. Uh so what


00:25:28.480 --> 00:25:31.510
will happen is we'll see lots of images.


00:25:31.520 --> 00:25:33.149
Uh we will


00:25:33.159 --> 00:25:37.510
see the um the surface of the the


00:25:37.520 --> 00:25:39.590
asteroid. I think I think Lucy flies by


00:25:39.600 --> 00:25:44.390
at something like 500 uh 500 kilometers


00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:46.870
from the asteroid. So it's a close


00:25:46.880 --> 00:25:50.630
approach. Uh we'll start to see uh


00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:52.070
details of its surface. As I said,


00:25:52.080 --> 00:25:54.390
there's a spectrometer attached to the


00:25:54.400 --> 00:25:56.590
spacecraft. It's been characterized as a


00:25:56.600 --> 00:25:58.950
carbonatous asteroid, a sea type


00:25:58.960 --> 00:26:02.390
asteroid, uh, which is a, you know, one


00:26:02.400 --> 00:26:04.710
of of interest, uh, because it's got


00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:09.029
high carbon content. Um, what I was just


00:26:09.039 --> 00:26:11.830
wanting to check, uh, and I think that's


00:26:11.840 --> 00:26:17.230
not the case is, uh, yep, uh, Donald


00:26:17.240 --> 00:26:21.990
Johansson is 81 years old, uh, in he was


00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:24.310
born in Chicago, so he's still around.


00:26:24.320 --> 00:26:26.630
and hopefully cheering the spacecraft on


00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:28.870
to the asteroid that is named after him.


00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:33.669
That's wonderful. What a fun story.


00:26:33.679 --> 00:26:35.510
Do you have any planets or asteroids


00:26:35.520 --> 00:26:39.750
named after you? Uh, I do. Really?


00:26:39.760 --> 00:26:42.390
Asteroid 5691 is called Fred Watson.


00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:44.789
Yes, it's all one word. Fred Watson.


00:26:44.799 --> 00:26:46.669
That was named in


00:26:46.679 --> 00:26:50.149
2003, I think. Um, must be quite the


00:26:50.159 --> 00:26:52.909
quite the Hansen asteroid. Uh, I think


00:26:52.919 --> 00:26:55.430
it's, do you know, um, I could tell you


00:26:55.440 --> 00:26:57.269
what its main characteristic is. It's


00:26:57.279 --> 00:27:00.230
totally boring. Um, because it's just a


00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:02.310
main belt asteroid that orbits between


00:27:02.320 --> 00:27:05.029
the orbits of Mars and Jupiter. When,


00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:07.909
um, when we had news that that asteroid


00:27:07.919 --> 00:27:09.269
had been named after me, which I


00:27:09.279 --> 00:27:11.830
honestly I was blown away by. My two


00:27:11.840 --> 00:27:14.470
boys were quite young then. Uh, and I


00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:16.470
came home and told them they've they've


00:27:16.480 --> 00:27:17.909
named an asteroid after me. They said,


00:27:17.919 --> 00:27:19.909
"Dad, that's terrible. If it hits the


00:27:19.919 --> 00:27:22.630
earth, it'll be your fault. Um, and so


00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:24.630
so they were quite, you know, they were


00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:26.549
only young then, but it's a good point,


00:27:26.559 --> 00:27:28.470
but it never will. It's so boring. It'll


00:27:28.480 --> 00:27:30.950
never hit the Earth. That's the Well,


00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:32.070
that's going to be that's going to be


00:27:32.080 --> 00:27:33.830
the asteroid that we find some weird


00:27:33.840 --> 00:27:35.750
alien spacecraft on. That's where


00:27:35.760 --> 00:27:37.830
they've been hiding out this whole time.


00:27:37.840 --> 00:27:39.990
Then you'll go down in history. That's


00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:41.990
right. That would that would indeed be


00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:44.310
the case. Yes.


00:27:44.320 --> 00:27:46.950
Well, excellent, Fred. This has been a


00:27:46.960 --> 00:27:49.430
really fun conversation just talking


00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:53.269
about the most exciting discoveries and


00:27:53.279 --> 00:27:55.430
we really got to talk today about, you


00:27:55.440 --> 00:27:57.669
know, how these discoveries happened and


00:27:57.679 --> 00:27:59.590
a little bit of the drama behind, you


00:27:59.600 --> 00:28:01.590
know, the the competition of getting


00:28:01.600 --> 00:28:03.350
that satellite time and that telescope


00:28:03.360 --> 00:28:05.110
time and then, you know, the fun


00:28:05.120 --> 00:28:07.029
exciting um I think just kind of the


00:28:07.039 --> 00:28:09.110
tender personable moments of this whole


00:28:09.120 --> 00:28:10.950
industry. you know, people making


00:28:10.960 --> 00:28:12.710
discoveries and having things named


00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:15.110
after them and just the tribute to


00:28:15.120 --> 00:28:17.669
people's hard work.


00:28:17.679 --> 00:28:20.310
That's right. It it's a a global


00:28:20.320 --> 00:28:22.389
endeavor. Um, you know, all of this


00:28:22.399 --> 00:28:24.350
research in both space science and in


00:28:24.360 --> 00:28:27.669
astronomy, and it's a fairly, I guess, a


00:28:27.679 --> 00:28:29.990
fairly close-knit bunch of people, and


00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:31.830
certainly there are only 10,000


00:28:31.840 --> 00:28:33.990
astronomers in the world, professional


00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:35.990
astronomers, which is not that many when


00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:38.549
you consider how many people there are.


00:28:38.559 --> 00:28:40.230
uh it's might be a bit more than that


00:28:40.240 --> 00:28:42.230
now. It's probably more like 15,000 but


00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:44.389
it's still a relatively small number. Uh


00:28:44.399 --> 00:28:46.070
the space industry of course is a


00:28:46.080 --> 00:28:47.510
commercial industry has much bigger


00:28:47.520 --> 00:28:50.230
numbers and uh ultimately more money but


00:28:50.240 --> 00:28:52.269
nevertheless the things that we do


00:28:52.279 --> 00:28:54.870
entwine so closely that we learn from


00:28:54.880 --> 00:28:56.389
each other. Each community learns from


00:28:56.399 --> 00:28:57.909
the other one. So yeah, it's nice to be


00:28:57.919 --> 00:28:59.590
able to talk about the way these things


00:28:59.600 --> 00:29:02.389
happen on a on an episode of Space


00:29:02.399 --> 00:29:06.310
Ducks. Yeah, it's a kind of a a space


00:29:06.320 --> 00:29:08.549
community, a space family, and we're al


00:29:08.559 --> 00:29:11.029
kind of just a big global family. I


00:29:11.039 --> 00:29:13.990
heard a fun comment the uh over the last


00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:16.070
week, somebody said that um Houston,


00:29:16.080 --> 00:29:19.590
Texas is the gateway to the galaxy. And


00:29:19.600 --> 00:29:21.269
it made me think it's like, wow, you


00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:22.470
know, we think of like, you know,


00:29:22.480 --> 00:29:24.630
Houston, Texas is big space city, but


00:29:24.640 --> 00:29:26.470
it's like this is really going to end up


00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:28.870
just being a pit stop onto the bigger


00:29:28.880 --> 00:29:31.590
bigger things that we go on to discover


00:29:31.600 --> 00:29:33.909
in the future. So Fred, did you have


00:29:33.919 --> 00:29:35.590
anything else you wanted to add or


00:29:35.600 --> 00:29:37.590
commentate on the articles we talked


00:29:37.600 --> 00:29:39.830
about today? Not really. Uh I think


00:29:39.840 --> 00:29:41.669
we've covered them pretty well, but I


00:29:41.679 --> 00:29:44.630
would like to say uh I think this is


00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:46.230
probably our last get together for a


00:29:46.240 --> 00:29:48.870
while. Uh it's been great talking to


00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:50.230
you. Actually, it's not quite the last


00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:52.149
because we've got a Q&A session to do as


00:29:52.159 --> 00:29:53.909
well. But in the main sessions, thank


00:29:53.919 --> 00:29:56.870
you very much, Heidi, for your uh expert


00:29:56.880 --> 00:30:00.149
um handling of all our topics and the


00:30:00.159 --> 00:30:02.149
lovely questions that you've asked. Oh,


00:30:02.159 --> 00:30:03.430
well, thank you so much, Fred. I


00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:04.789
appreciate that. And thank you to all


00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:07.029
the listeners who wrote in and um said


00:30:07.039 --> 00:30:08.549
thank you that I'm doing a good job.


00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:10.230
That certainly made me feel really nice.


00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:11.669
So, thank you to the listeners. Thank


00:30:11.679 --> 00:30:14.149
you, Fred. And you will all have um


00:30:14.159 --> 00:30:15.990
Andrew back next week. You get me for


00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:18.470
one more Q&A, but then you get Andrew


00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:21.110
back after that. So, thank you so much.


00:30:21.120 --> 00:30:23.430
Um until next time, everybody, this has


00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:26.389
been another wonderful out of this world


00:30:26.399 --> 00:30:29.990
episode of Space Nuts. Space Nuts.


00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:32.070
You'll be listening to the Space Nuts


00:30:32.080 --> 00:30:34.389
podcast


00:30:34.399 --> 00:30:37.350
available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify,


00:30:37.360 --> 00:30:39.990
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00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:42.830
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00:30:42.840 --> 00:30:45.269
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