K2-18b, Gravitons & The Comet Conundrum: A Cosmic Q&A | Space Nuts: Astronomy Insights & Cosmic...

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Language: en

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Hi there, Andrew Dunley again, the host


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of the Space Nuts podcast, and we are


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happy to bring you yet another episode.


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Uh, this is a Q&A episode where we'll be


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answering questions about the life that


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they think they may have found possibly


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could be done on


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K218B. Uh, gravity and gravitons, the


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Swan comet, and hopefully not the


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Swanong comet. Boom boom. And fake news.


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That's all coming up in this episode of


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Space Nuts. 15 seconds. Guidance is


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internal. 10 9 Ignition sequence start.


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Space Nuts. 5 4 3 2 1 2 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1


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Space Nuts. Astronauts reported. Sure


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does. And with me as always is Professor


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Fred. What's an astronomer at large?


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Hello, Fred. Hello, Andrew. Nice to see


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you again. Nice to see you, too. Yes.


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Um, still sort of getting back down to


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earth because only two minutes since we


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did the last separate prank. So, um,


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still getting over the jet lag, but


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that'll um, that'll pass. Um, didn't get


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seasick. I didn't mention that before in


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the last didn't get seasick at all.


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There were I think we only had one day


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where we hit some big swells and the


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captain came on and said, uh, as you can


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see, uh, the seas are rather u busy


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today. those waves are 14 ft uh 14 ft


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high. I thought 14 foot waves.


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Uh board with me at the time. So, um not


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that you need one where I live. But


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yeah, it was um it was it was a good


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ship. U very nice ship, very good staff.


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Had a great time. And um uh yeah, I I I


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won't go through all the the things we


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did. Um but I I will point out one


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thing. nothing to do with astronomy, but


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we we'd been to Las Vegas before 15


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years ago. And we were, you know, it's a


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sensory overload. Beend a couple of days


00:02:04.799 --> 00:02:06.149
there and you just can't wait to get


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out. It's just that it's just so in your


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face. We went back this time and I we


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didn't say it to each other until after


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we left, but we both felt the same that


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it it it's lost some of its mystique.


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And I put that down to the fact that a


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lot of the casinos had all sorts of


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things to try and get people in, like uh


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the Magic Garden and dolphin pools and


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white lions and um MGM Casino had lions


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in the casino living in in um I don't


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know, habitats that were built into the


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structure of the casino complex. It was


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really quite impressive. And um uh


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notwithstanding what the animal rights


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activists probably thought,


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that's all gone.


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Oh, most of that's gone. You know what


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they put in their place?


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Sports bars. Okay. Sports. You walk into


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a giant room that has teen televisions


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covering the space of a of a theater


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screen and just lists and lists of odds


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and a bar with 10,000 different kinds of


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drinks and people just sitting there


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betting on the whatever any sport you


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can think of. Ice hockey I think was the


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flavor of the month while we were there.


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Um yeah and we just walked away and went


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gee that's sad. That's it's sad. It's


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just um and and the um one of the big


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casinos there called the Mirage is gone.


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It's just gone. It's just flat ground


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there. They they've completely


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demolished it and they're going to


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replace it with a Hard Rock um you've


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heard of Hard Rock Cafe. They're going


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to have a hard rock, you know, day.


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Unbelievable.


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But uh yeah, anyway, that's beside the


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point. We've got some questions to get


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to,


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Fred, and we might as well get stuck


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straight into it. I'm going to read them


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all today because I've been away and I I


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cleared the deck. So, if you've got


00:04:07.760 --> 00:04:09.509
questions, send them in because I have


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absolutely wiped the slate clean. If you


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had a question in and we didn't answer


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it, that's on me. Send me your hate mail


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because um I I'm starting from scratch.


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Fresh material from next Q&A episode


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onwards. So, um send them in via our


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website. So, first one from Martin


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Burman Gorvine of PTOAC, Maryland.


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Hello, Space Nuts. That's what I won't


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do it. Uh, author and writer


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extraordinaire. He asks about the recent


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buzz surrounding the possible detection


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of life on exoplanet


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K218b, specifically dimemental sulfide.


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Did I say that right? Uh, which could be


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a bio signature. And while acknowledging


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it's too early to draw any big


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conclusions, but that hasn't stopped the


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popular press. I threw that in. Not


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Martin. Martin playfully wonders, "If


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life is found there, might they grant


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asylum to a struggling American sci-fi


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writer disillusioned with Earth?"


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Away with words. He does. He does. Um,


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now I know I know you covered K28B


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um the other day with with Heidi. Uh,


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but there there's been has there been


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any more information about it? I I think


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what's happened is um it's it it's


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basically caused a lot of serious


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reflection


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uh among the science community and the


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philosophy community as well uh who have


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muscled into this um with quite quite


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you know understandably


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um as to what we're really doing here


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what we're looking for when we when


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we're looking for evidence of alien life


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uh and I I think there are two aspects


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of this. One is first of all there is


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still some doubt about the uh the actual


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detection of these um these compounds


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these molecules um there are two of them


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that have been found they so the authors


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claim there the authors come from the US


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and the UK uh um dimethile sulfide and


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dimethile dulfide those are the two


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which on earth are products of the


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environment caused by phytolantum, those


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little microbes that live in water. Uh,


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and the the authors of the paper have


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drawn a few strings here. This this is a


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world that's actually bigger than Earth.


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It's uh about um 8.6 times the mass of


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the Earth, about 2.6 times the diameter


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of Earth. Yeah. uh and the authors


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believe that this is something called a


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haishen world and a haishen world it's a


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great word actually uh is an


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amalgamation of hydrogen and ocean


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basically an ocean world with a hydrogen


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atmosphere so it's been called a hyishen


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world uh we think they exist um and the


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authors of this paper think that they've


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got evidence to suggest that uh K28b is


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actually a hyishen world Now, there are


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other authors who've stepped in and


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said, "Wait a minute. We think it's too


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hot for that. We think it's, you know,


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it's got volcanic activity and it's not


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it's not a worldrence ocean at all." So,


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that's a moot point. But the the


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detection of these uh of these


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chemicals, the the DMS as it's called,


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and DMDS, uh the abbreviations for them


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because it's too hard to say


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dethile sulfide.


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uh they are um


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uh those detections themselves are in


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some doubt because they're at a


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confidence level. Yes, it's


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99.7% certain but that's not the pretty


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well 100% that science demands. No. Um


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and so there's still uncertainty about


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that. So that's one aspect that maybe


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this is a


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misidentification of features in the


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spectrum of the atmosphere of of K28b.


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But the other side of it is um one or


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two people have pointed out that these


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chemicals have been detected in the uh


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gaseous envelopes of comets. Uh now on


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Earth, yes, they only come from


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biological activity, but where they're


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going to come from on a comet uh whose


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temperature is -200° C. Uh it's a so


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there's got to be chemical reactions


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that are independent of life that that


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will um that will actually generate


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these what have been called biomarkers.


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And so the question is are they


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biomarkers at all? Uh, or is it are we


00:08:59.600 --> 00:09:03.590
just clutching at at straws? Um, do you


00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:04.949
know that one of the one of the articles


00:09:04.959 --> 00:09:07.590
I read, I really like the the term. It


00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:09.590
was um something to the effect that


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we've been hunting for uh needles in a


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hay stack. And is this just a


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particularly sharp piece of hay that


00:09:16.720 --> 00:09:19.910
they found? And that could be the the


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case is very nicely put.


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So, and so that's where the philosophers


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have come in and said, you know, we


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really we've no idea what alien life


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might look like. Um, and to to sort of


00:09:33.760 --> 00:09:37.350
in many ways, um, u blinker ourselves so


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that we're only looking for things that


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are found on Earth that are markers of


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bi biological activity. Uh, maybe we


00:09:45.040 --> 00:09:48.070
have to be looking much broader in a


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much broader sense. Now people have said


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this for a long time but I think this


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particular discovery has really


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heightened uh the concentration of


00:09:57.680 --> 00:09:59.750
philosophers coming in on this and


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there's a very interesting article on


00:10:02.720 --> 00:10:05.030
the conversation uh and its title is


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scientists claim to have found evidence


00:10:06.720 --> 00:10:09.590
of alien life but bio signatures might


00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:11.750
hide more than they reveal and that


00:10:11.760 --> 00:10:14.630
comes from a scientist who is actually


00:10:14.640 --> 00:10:17.990
um a a PhD candidate in the philosophy


00:10:18.000 --> 00:10:20.949
of biology. ology at Sydney University.


00:10:20.959 --> 00:10:22.949
So this this is philosophy rather than


00:10:22.959 --> 00:10:25.350
science, but um it's a scientific


00:10:25.360 --> 00:10:27.990
article and it makes the point that


00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:29.670
maybe what we should be looking for is


00:10:29.680 --> 00:10:31.750
not life as we know it, but life as we


00:10:31.760 --> 00:10:34.069
don't know it because it could be


00:10:34.079 --> 00:10:36.069
different. Yes, we've talked about that


00:10:36.079 --> 00:10:39.750
before that we we make I suppose


00:10:39.760 --> 00:10:41.910
logically make assumptions that life


00:10:41.920 --> 00:10:43.670
elsewhere might just be like it is on


00:10:43.680 --> 00:10:47.030
Earth, but it it might be so alien to us


00:10:47.040 --> 00:10:50.389
we probably wouldn't even notice it. Y


00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:53.030
don't know what we're looking for. So on


00:10:53.040 --> 00:10:54.550
the other hand, you know, the other side


00:10:54.560 --> 00:10:56.550
of this coin is all we can look for is


00:10:56.560 --> 00:10:58.790
bio signatures as we think we interpret


00:10:58.800 --> 00:11:01.829
them from Earth. So we've got a few


00:11:01.839 --> 00:11:04.790
interesting steps to take here. So I


00:11:04.800 --> 00:11:08.790
think that the um K218B story has yet to


00:11:08.800 --> 00:11:10.550
run quite a long way. I think there'll


00:11:10.560 --> 00:11:13.030
be more observations of it. Uh maybe


00:11:13.040 --> 00:11:14.790
with the James Web, but certainly with


00:11:14.800 --> 00:11:18.310
the uh the ESO ELT when that comes on


00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:21.430
stream, the 39 m optical telescope. Uh


00:11:21.440 --> 00:11:24.550
that will probably give us a much firmer


00:11:24.560 --> 00:11:27.190
view of whether DMS and DMDS are are


00:11:27.200 --> 00:11:28.949
actually in the atmosphere. But the


00:11:28.959 --> 00:11:30.470
philosophy of what we're looking for, I


00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:31.910
think, is perhaps almost the more


00:11:31.920 --> 00:11:34.230
interesting aspect of this. It kind of


00:11:34.240 --> 00:11:37.030
reminds me of the recent discovery that


00:11:37.040 --> 00:11:39.190
they announced about the atmosphere of


00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:41.509
Venus. Venus. Yes. And that was


00:11:41.519 --> 00:11:43.190
ultimately debunked, but I think it's


00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:43.949
been


00:11:43.959 --> 00:11:46.310
undebunked again. Yeah. Yes, it has.


00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:48.150
Yeah, that's right. But it's still very


00:11:48.160 --> 00:11:50.389
very controversial. Yes. Yes. Yes,


00:11:50.399 --> 00:11:52.710
indeed. But um again, that was


00:11:52.720 --> 00:11:55.350
phosphine, wasn't it? It was. Uh but


00:11:55.360 --> 00:11:58.389
once again phosphine is only a biioarker


00:11:58.399 --> 00:12:02.470
under certain circumstances and you know


00:12:02.480 --> 00:12:04.949
that's the thing it may just there may


00:12:04.959 --> 00:12:08.069
be natural causes of it in the um in the


00:12:08.079 --> 00:12:09.750
atmosphere of Venus. It's the same


00:12:09.760 --> 00:12:14.069
situation. It was first of all a very um


00:12:14.079 --> 00:12:17.430
uh perhaps um adventurous identification


00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:19.430
of a chemical that you found because the


00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:23.430
data really don't match up to it yet. uh


00:12:23.440 --> 00:12:25.030
that coupled with the fact that there


00:12:25.040 --> 00:12:26.790
may be other ways that this this


00:12:26.800 --> 00:12:29.750
compound can be can be formed. No, it is


00:12:29.760 --> 00:12:31.030
fascinating. I was just reading some of


00:12:31.040 --> 00:12:32.949
the headlines of the of the major


00:12:32.959 --> 00:12:35.190
outlets that have have latched onto this


00:12:35.200 --> 00:12:37.750
story and it goes to what Fenton is


00:12:37.760 --> 00:12:40.389
asking us about it. There's that one


00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:42.150
till last because it's my favorite topic


00:12:42.160 --> 00:12:44.949
at the moment. So, um we'll we'll get


00:12:44.959 --> 00:12:46.949
into that. But uh and and that Venus


00:12:46.959 --> 00:12:49.350
story pops up in in the list of fake


00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:52.389
news stories, but it it fake news is a


00:12:52.399 --> 00:12:54.949
terrible way to describe it. These were


00:12:54.959 --> 00:12:57.190
probably genuine attempts to to come up


00:12:57.200 --> 00:13:00.069
with theories and ideas and um um some


00:13:00.079 --> 00:13:02.470
of them missed the mark. So yeah, fake


00:13:02.480 --> 00:13:04.310
news is I don't know who popularized


00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:07.190
that, but anyway, we'll carry on. Martin


00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:09.030
knows who it was. Thank you, Martin.


00:13:09.040 --> 00:13:11.590
Great to hear from you. Uh different,


00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:16.069
unusual, um but always welcome.


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install.insta360.com. Now back to the


00:17:02.600 --> 00:17:06.630
show here. Space nuts. Uh next question


00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:08.710
comes from James. Uh we're not sure


00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:10.309
where James is, but I'm sure he knows


00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:12.390
where he is. Uh this is about gravity


00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:14.710
and gravitons. The Higs particle


00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:16.549
generates the field that gives other


00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:19.270
particles mass. Gravity is a property of


00:17:19.280 --> 00:17:21.909
mass directly proportional to the mass


00:17:21.919 --> 00:17:24.470
of an object. In other words, why do we


00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:27.750
need another particle as in a graviton


00:17:27.760 --> 00:17:30.950
to provide gravity? That's a good one.


00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:33.029
It is. Yes, it is a good one. And


00:17:33.039 --> 00:17:36.150
certainly um the uh the particle


00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:38.870
physicists do see uh these as two


00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:42.870
completely separate things. Um the Higs


00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:44.390
particle


00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:48.390
uh was proposed as as being something


00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:51.190
that the other particles needed back in


00:17:51.200 --> 00:17:54.150
I think it was 1966 or 1967 by Peter


00:17:54.160 --> 00:17:56.630
Higs at the University of Edinburgh who


00:17:56.640 --> 00:17:58.470
I think he died only a couple of years


00:17:58.480 --> 00:18:02.230
ago if I remember rightly. Um, and I


00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:05.830
mean the graviton has is still a is


00:18:05.840 --> 00:18:09.590
still a hypothetical particle. Um, but


00:18:09.600 --> 00:18:11.590
it and it but it's different from what


00:18:11.600 --> 00:18:15.270
the Higs does. Uh, the way to interpret


00:18:15.280 --> 00:18:19.270
the Higs is very much as the particle


00:18:19.280 --> 00:18:22.390
that uh, as exactly as James says, it


00:18:22.400 --> 00:18:24.310
generates the field that gives particles


00:18:24.320 --> 00:18:27.669
mass. Um, and the field is it's like a


00:18:27.679 --> 00:18:31.669
force field. Um the the the way um I


00:18:31.679 --> 00:18:34.710
read a lovely interpretation of of uh of


00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:38.950
this that um if you imagine a some you


00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:40.470
know something like a marble moving


00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:44.150
around uh in space then it's it's moving


00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:48.390
freely and uh you you don't really have


00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:50.310
anything to sense its mass. But if you


00:18:50.320 --> 00:18:54.630
put it in a jar of tle or honey uh then


00:18:54.640 --> 00:18:57.110
the the trile or the honey actually


00:18:57.120 --> 00:19:00.789
mimics the Higs field and it it provides


00:19:00.799 --> 00:19:03.029
a resistance which is proportional to


00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:05.909
the mass of the particle. And so the


00:19:05.919 --> 00:19:06.909
Higs


00:19:06.919 --> 00:19:09.270
particle you know this is my


00:19:09.280 --> 00:19:10.789
understanding of it. I'm not a particle


00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:11.990
physicist and I don't think I'm


00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:13.990
explaining this particularly well, but


00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:16.070
it has a different function from what


00:19:16.080 --> 00:19:19.510
the hypothetical graviton has, which


00:19:19.520 --> 00:19:22.789
would be um transmitting another field,


00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:25.029
the field of gravity, that's a field as


00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:29.750
well. Uh but um but would have different


00:19:29.760 --> 00:19:32.310
characteristics from the Higs particle


00:19:32.320 --> 00:19:34.870
uh providing the the gravitation. I I


00:19:34.880 --> 00:19:36.150
suspect James is not going to be


00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:38.710
convinced by my explanation here. Uh


00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:40.230
because his question, why do we need


00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:42.549
another particle to provide gravity? Um


00:19:42.559 --> 00:19:44.630
all I'm saying is that gravity is a


00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:47.909
different thing from the Higs field. Um


00:19:47.919 --> 00:19:50.630
and so we need another particle for it.


00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:53.350
Uh but um I hope you'll take that uh and


00:19:53.360 --> 00:19:55.510
perhaps uh James, you know, follow up on


00:19:55.520 --> 00:19:57.510
some of the uh on some of the stuff you


00:19:57.520 --> 00:19:59.190
can find online that really talks about


00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:01.270
the difference between these particles.


00:20:01.280 --> 00:20:05.669
L. Yeah. Go on. I was just going to say


00:20:05.679 --> 00:20:07.430
the first thing I'd Google would be


00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:08.870
what's the difference between a Higs


00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:11.110
particle and a graviton.


00:20:11.120 --> 00:20:12.390
Done that because I haven't had time,


00:20:12.400 --> 00:20:15.230
but that's right. And


00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:19.830
um Peter Higs died last year, was it?


00:20:19.840 --> 00:20:21.990
Last year. Yeah. Yeah. April the 10th.


00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:24.630
So just over a year. Yes. Yes. Much


00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:26.950
missed. He was a great man. Yes, indeed


00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:30.070
he was. Uh thank you, James. This is


00:20:30.080 --> 00:20:32.070
Space Nuts. You're with Andrew Dunley


00:20:32.080 --> 00:20:35.070
and Professor Fred


00:20:35.080 --> 00:20:38.590
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nordvpn.com/spacenuts. Now back to the


00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:17.430
show. Okay, we checked all four systems


00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:20.630
and with Space Nuts. Next question comes


00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:24.830
from Ted. No known location, no known


00:23:24.840 --> 00:23:27.190
abode. It reminds me though, Fred, when


00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:30.950
we um No, I hope this this is not a


00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:32.870
reflection on on Ted at all, but when we


00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:35.029
were in Las Vegas, I was walking across


00:23:35.039 --> 00:23:37.110
the street and there was a homeless guy


00:23:37.120 --> 00:23:39.430
in a wheelchair on the opposite side.


00:23:39.440 --> 00:23:40.789
And I was walking straight towards him


00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:43.190
and he had a sign and next to it a


00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:45.510
bottle for people to put in tips. And


00:23:45.520 --> 00:23:48.630
you read the sign and it it it honestly


00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:51.350
it I can't say it because it is it it's


00:23:51.360 --> 00:23:55.029
got a nasty word in it, but it was


00:23:55.039 --> 00:23:58.470
something word Trump and you can figure


00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:00.310
it out for yourself. But if you agreed


00:24:00.320 --> 00:24:02.070
with him, you gave him a tip. If you


00:24:02.080 --> 00:24:05.029
didn't, you just kept walking.


00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:08.310
So each man well he had quite a few


00:24:08.320 --> 00:24:11.110
quite a few um handfuls of change when I


00:24:11.120 --> 00:24:14.950
went past. But um yeah um that's beside


00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:17.430
the point. But uh Ted Ted wants to know,


00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:19.350
"I've been observing the Swan Comet


00:24:19.360 --> 00:24:21.830
every morning for the last few days.


00:24:21.840 --> 00:24:23.590
Please discuss this if you have not


00:24:23.600 --> 00:24:25.510
already done so." Well, I'm going to ask


00:24:25.520 --> 00:24:26.789
you anyway, Fred, because I was


00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:30.310
interested in it. Um what's the latest?


00:24:30.320 --> 00:24:32.149
Yeah, it's um we haven't discussed it


00:24:32.159 --> 00:24:35.269
already. Um, so, uh, it's it's a it's a


00:24:35.279 --> 00:24:38.470
timely, uh, a timely question from TED


00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:40.630
and great to hear, Ted, that you've been


00:24:40.640 --> 00:24:42.950
observing it, uh, because it's not an


00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:45.590
easy object to observe. It's, um, it's


00:24:45.600 --> 00:24:47.190
quite faint. It's certainly below a


00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:50.029
naked eye visibility. It full name is C


00:24:50.039 --> 00:24:55.590
2025 F2 swan. Uh, and it's, uh, a


00:24:55.600 --> 00:24:59.350
morning object at the moment. Um, I


00:24:59.360 --> 00:25:03.350
haven't observed it. Uh I not a morning


00:25:03.360 --> 00:25:05.190
person because astronomers aren't


00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:07.350
generally unless there's an object like


00:25:07.360 --> 00:25:10.310
swan that they really want to see. Um uh


00:25:10.320 --> 00:25:14.390
but yes it's um it's a interesting


00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:18.630
object because it's quite um bluish in


00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:22.830
color. um uh the


00:25:22.840 --> 00:25:25.669
the you know the the the the


00:25:25.679 --> 00:25:29.110
observations that you can see made with


00:25:29.120 --> 00:25:31.590
relatively small telescopes definitely


00:25:31.600 --> 00:25:35.590
give it a bluish tinge. Uh it's um it's


00:25:35.600 --> 00:25:40.390
got a tail that is very very thin. I


00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:42.310
haven't seen images of its tail, but I


00:25:42.320 --> 00:25:45.190
believe it's it's very very thin and


00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:48.549
it's roughly a degree or so long. Um,


00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:51.190
but good on TED for for observing it.


00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:54.630
It's it's probably fading. Uh, although


00:25:54.640 --> 00:25:57.750
not apparently fading as fast as some


00:25:57.760 --> 00:26:00.149
observers have expected.


00:26:00.159 --> 00:26:02.390
Yeah, some articles are describing it as


00:26:02.400 --> 00:26:04.750
green, but


00:26:04.760 --> 00:26:07.029
um, the different objects being


00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:10.630
different colors. Um, yes, that John


00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:14.149
sent me some images the other day of um


00:26:14.159 --> 00:26:16.789
what was probably a meteor or meteorite


00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:19.990
um scraping our uh our what do you call


00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:24.310
it? Atmosphere and uh and it was green,


00:26:24.320 --> 00:26:28.310
bright green. Um but they're not always


00:26:28.320 --> 00:26:30.710
color. Yeah. So that's from the the


00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:34.230
oxygen uh in the upper atmosphere um


00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:35.909
that you get from a fireball or a


00:26:35.919 --> 00:26:39.510
meteor. And yeah, I think um blue comes


00:26:39.520 --> 00:26:41.029
if I remember rightly, I probably got


00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:43.669
this wrong. Carbon monoxide in a comet.


00:26:43.679 --> 00:26:45.750
Okay. Or that might be the green. I


00:26:45.760 --> 00:26:47.990
can't remember. But yes, the color is


00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:50.230
essentially it means it tell it's


00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:51.750
telling you something about the the


00:26:51.760 --> 00:26:54.230
gases that make up the or the frozen


00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:55.830
gases that make up the comet because


00:26:55.840 --> 00:26:57.190
that's what they are. They're they're


00:26:57.200 --> 00:27:00.549
balls of frozen gas. Green comets glow


00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:02.710
primarily due to a molecule called


00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:05.830
diatomic carbon. Yes, that's right


00:27:05.840 --> 00:27:08.710
indeed. And the emission of blue light


00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:12.470
is um it just says ionized gases such as


00:27:12.480 --> 00:27:15.029
carbon monoxide. Yeah. So, at least I


00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:18.230
got that one right. One, you're doing


00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:20.470
well. Yeah,


00:27:20.480 --> 00:27:22.310
but I haven't seen the comet. But thank


00:27:22.320 --> 00:27:24.230
you very much for Yeah. for raising it


00:27:24.240 --> 00:27:26.070
with space. It's nice to have a mention


00:27:26.080 --> 00:27:28.470
of it, too. We've had We've had quite a


00:27:28.480 --> 00:27:30.230
glut of comets lately, haven't we? Yeah.


00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:32.630
It's not been bad. That's right.


00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:34.470
and especially those big ones that


00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:37.190
threaten us. But anyway, we'll we'll not


00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:39.350
go there. Uh thank you, Ted. Lovely to


00:27:39.360 --> 00:27:41.430
hear from you. Finally, we're going to


00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:43.590
um discuss something that has been


00:27:43.600 --> 00:27:45.870
brought up by Fenton in St. Paul,


00:27:45.880 --> 00:27:48.470
Minnesota. Uh I've been an enthusiastic


00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:50.070
follower of your podcast for several


00:27:50.080 --> 00:27:51.990
years and have no doubt about the


00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:53.310
quality of your


00:27:53.320 --> 00:27:55.510
knowledge. I was laughing at myself


00:27:55.520 --> 00:27:58.230
then. uh analyses and conclusions which


00:27:58.240 --> 00:28:00.389
you reach during the discussions even


00:28:00.399 --> 00:28:02.789
when you infer I don't know he's talking


00:28:02.799 --> 00:28:05.909
about you there I just I just came


00:28:05.919 --> 00:28:07.830
across the following lay person article


00:28:07.840 --> 00:28:10.070
which voices an opinion on sensational


00:28:10.080 --> 00:28:12.710
results which make it into the popular


00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:14.950
press several examples pertain to


00:28:14.960 --> 00:28:17.510
astronomy and astrophysics uh is it


00:28:17.520 --> 00:28:19.830
worth commenting on this phenomenon in


00:28:19.840 --> 00:28:23.029
your podcasts uh that comes from Fenton


00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:25.830
thank you Fenton um Fenton's a regular


00:28:25.840 --> 00:28:28.789
Lovely to hear from you. Um, this is


00:28:28.799 --> 00:28:32.549
something Jonty her talked about while


00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:34.549
he filled in for you a couple of months


00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:38.950
ago and he was very very scathing on the


00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:41.430
way the popular press misinterprets or


00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:43.110
just goes for the sensationalist


00:28:43.120 --> 00:28:45.590
headline and I think we've seen it a bit


00:28:45.600 --> 00:28:48.470
with the um, life on the other planet


00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:51.310
that we talked about earlier um,


00:28:51.320 --> 00:28:53.669
K218b. There's been a bit of that going


00:28:53.679 --> 00:28:56.789
on. Um, a lot of them have actually been


00:28:56.799 --> 00:28:58.389
very good and said, "Look, we don't


00:28:58.399 --> 00:29:00.630
know. This is what scientists are hoping


00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:03.669
and thinking and studying, but it's not


00:29:03.679 --> 00:29:05.269
confirmed." But others have gone, "Oh,


00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:07.590
life on another planet. Boom. End of


00:29:07.600 --> 00:29:10.070
story. Not true." Or they probably put


00:29:10.080 --> 00:29:13.470
it in the last paragraph. That happens a


00:29:13.480 --> 00:29:17.029
lot, unfortunately. Fred, where I know I


00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:20.149
know where Jonty stands. Uh, I'm sure


00:29:20.159 --> 00:29:23.430
your um thoughts are probably similar.


00:29:23.440 --> 00:29:25.510
They're they're similar. That's right.


00:29:25.520 --> 00:29:28.630
Um it's partly, you know, as scientists


00:29:28.640 --> 00:29:31.070
in many ways, it's partly our own fault.


00:29:31.080 --> 00:29:35.430
Um because we do tend to couch things in


00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:38.870
may and perhapses and possibilities. And


00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:40.549
of course, that's what the media pick up


00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:45.549
on. Um uh it's uh it


00:29:45.559 --> 00:29:51.470
is hard to avoid that. I think


00:29:51.480 --> 00:29:53.909
um we have to be careful though. I mean


00:29:53.919 --> 00:29:56.070
the the the you know the story we


00:29:56.080 --> 00:29:59.630
discussed uh a few minutes ago about K2


00:29:59.640 --> 00:30:03.190
18B. M um a quote from the lead author


00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:09.029
of the paper was that um he says that


00:30:09.039 --> 00:30:09.950
the


00:30:09.960 --> 00:30:13.389
most obvious interpretation of the


00:30:13.399 --> 00:30:19.630
discovery is that the um the uh planet


00:30:19.640 --> 00:30:23.070
K218b is a hyishen world teameming with


00:30:23.080 --> 00:30:26.870
life and that's that's throwing you know


00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:30.310
it's just throwing the a grenade into


00:30:30.320 --> 00:30:33.110
the uh the media because they'll pick up


00:30:33.120 --> 00:30:34.950
on that and that's the headline teaming


00:30:34.960 --> 00:30:38.149
with life. Um but we've got absolutely


00:30:38.159 --> 00:30:42.710
no evidence for that. Uh even if uh the


00:30:42.720 --> 00:30:46.269
observations of these chemicals uh is is


00:30:46.279 --> 00:30:50.149
confirmed uh it's still not proof of


00:30:50.159 --> 00:30:52.230
living organisms. And so to say it's


00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:54.230
teameing with life, I mean he didn't say


00:30:54.240 --> 00:30:56.310
it's teeming with life. He said that


00:30:56.320 --> 00:30:58.310
that the the simplest interpretation of


00:30:58.320 --> 00:31:00.789
what they found is that that's the case,


00:31:00.799 --> 00:31:02.950
but that does not mean it is the case.


00:31:02.960 --> 00:31:05.590
And yes, the media pick up on that. Um


00:31:05.600 --> 00:31:09.029
I'm also reminded as well as the sorts


00:31:09.039 --> 00:31:10.710
of discoveries like the phosphine on


00:31:10.720 --> 00:31:13.830
Venus and all of the other things. Um


00:31:13.840 --> 00:31:15.909
it's seems to be happening less often


00:31:15.919 --> 00:31:19.029
now, but for a while uh every almost


00:31:19.039 --> 00:31:22.070
every month we got a picture of um a


00:31:22.080 --> 00:31:24.029
doorway on Mars


00:31:24.039 --> 00:31:27.149
or you know a tire on Mars, a truck


00:31:27.159 --> 00:31:30.149
tire. There was one which was a bowl of


00:31:30.159 --> 00:31:32.389
hat on Mars. So somebody had been


00:31:32.399 --> 00:31:33.990
abducted.


00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:37.029
um all all of that which we now know is


00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:39.029
this phenomenon called paridolia where


00:31:39.039 --> 00:31:41.029
we we look at things and say oh that


00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:42.470
looks like a bowl of hat or that looks


00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:44.710
like a tire humanize everything


00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:47.830
rehumanize it yes that that's a great


00:31:47.840 --> 00:31:50.470
generator of fake news absolutely great


00:31:50.480 --> 00:31:54.230
but what um yeah the the article that


00:31:54.240 --> 00:31:56.470
Fenton sent us I had a look at and it's


00:31:56.480 --> 00:32:00.470
got a few examples of fake news and has


00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:02.230
as someone who worked in the media for


00:32:02.240 --> 00:32:05.430
40 years I'm very much aware of how some


00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:08.470
journalists operate, not all, but some


00:32:08.480 --> 00:32:10.950
don't have the integrity to just stick


00:32:10.960 --> 00:32:13.750
with the the facts. They want they want


00:32:13.760 --> 00:32:16.389
um clickbait, I think, is the modern


00:32:16.399 --> 00:32:19.830
term for it. And the the writer of this


00:32:19.840 --> 00:32:25.389
article um very astute um gives examples


00:32:25.399 --> 00:32:29.269
of what turned out to be untrue


00:32:29.279 --> 00:32:32.310
situations. um citing 2014 astronomers


00:32:32.320 --> 00:32:33.750
announced a whopper of a discovery.


00:32:33.760 --> 00:32:35.269
Primordial waves from the earliest


00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:37.029
moments of the Big Bang. The South Pole


00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:38.549
telescope results validated


00:32:38.559 --> 00:32:40.870
long-standing but still shaky hypothesis


00:32:40.880 --> 00:32:43.830
of cosmic inflation turned out to be.


00:32:43.840 --> 00:32:46.950
Yes. Um and there's a couple of stories


00:32:46.960 --> 00:32:50.310
like that. Tabby Star in 2015 um with


00:32:50.320 --> 00:32:53.590
its strange light pattern um and you


00:32:53.600 --> 00:32:56.070
know the popular press latched on to the


00:32:56.080 --> 00:32:57.750
possibility that it was surrounded by a


00:32:57.760 --> 00:33:00.470
mega structure built by aliens. A Dyson


00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:02.549
sphere. That's right. Yeah, it was bust


00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:05.990
again. And so it goes on. Uh and they


00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:07.750
actually cite the Venus story that we've


00:33:07.760 --> 00:33:09.110
talked about a couple of times already,


00:33:09.120 --> 00:33:11.669
but um as we said, it was debunked, but


00:33:11.679 --> 00:33:14.710
now they're undebunking it. Uh, but it's


00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:18.230
still got a big question mark over it.


00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:20.070
And I did a bit of research myself,


00:33:20.080 --> 00:33:22.070
Fred, to see if I could find any other


00:33:22.080 --> 00:33:24.389
stories that popped up that turned out


00:33:24.399 --> 00:33:27.750
to be wrong. Uh, 2016, a paper in the


00:33:27.760 --> 00:33:29.669
astrophysical journal Letters suggested


00:33:29.679 --> 00:33:32.950
that galaxy D4 uh DF44 was highly


00:33:32.960 --> 00:33:34.630
unusual, containing an exceptionally


00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:36.470
high amount of dark matter, at least


00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:38.230
98%.


00:33:38.240 --> 00:33:41.110
um they did some uh follow-up studies


00:33:41.120 --> 00:33:42.789
and found out that it had a normal


00:33:42.799 --> 00:33:46.310
amount of dark matter um because it was


00:33:46.320 --> 00:33:49.990
a low mass dwarf galaxy. So yeah, and


00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:54.549
and so it goes on. Look, I know that a


00:33:54.559 --> 00:33:56.870
lot of the time this sensationalism is


00:33:56.880 --> 00:33:59.950
driven by journalists trying to make a


00:33:59.960 --> 00:34:02.310
headline and that's that's what it comes


00:34:02.320 --> 00:34:04.950
down to. A lot of these papers are


00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:06.630
published and and the writer of the


00:34:06.640 --> 00:34:09.030
article that Fenton refers to said it


00:34:09.040 --> 00:34:12.069
openly. There's a lot of pressure on


00:34:12.079 --> 00:34:13.750
scientists and astronomers and


00:34:13.760 --> 00:34:15.750
physicists and people in the science


00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:17.629
fraternity to get


00:34:17.639 --> 00:34:20.389
published. And sometimes they'll push


00:34:20.399 --> 00:34:23.109
the boundaries to get that paper out


00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:25.829
there and and get the headline. And the


00:34:25.839 --> 00:34:28.389
popular press will hone in on we have


00:34:28.399 --> 00:34:32.589
found life like like a fly to a flame.


00:34:32.599 --> 00:34:35.550
And that's that's really the that is the


00:34:35.560 --> 00:34:39.430
problem. But I I'd like to say that most


00:34:39.440 --> 00:34:41.270
people are astute enough to read beyond


00:34:41.280 --> 00:34:44.230
the opening paragraph and get to the


00:34:44.240 --> 00:34:45.750
part where they actually tell you the


00:34:45.760 --> 00:34:48.389
truth. Yeah.


00:34:48.399 --> 00:34:51.030
Does it be in there somewhere? Yeah.


00:34:51.040 --> 00:34:52.470
Yes, that's right. It is. Yeah. It's


00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:54.550
nearly always in there somewhere. Yeah.


00:34:54.560 --> 00:34:56.790
No, I I I agree with that. So, it sounds


00:34:56.800 --> 00:34:58.390
as though Jonty said the same thing as


00:34:58.400 --> 00:35:00.390
what I would have said. He did. Yes.


00:35:00.400 --> 00:35:03.109
Yes. Um he he was sitting on a


00:35:03.119 --> 00:35:06.470
wheelchair with a sign and a


00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:09.150
Yes, that's probably what


00:35:09.160 --> 00:35:11.750
um kind of looked like him though. Never


00:35:11.760 --> 00:35:14.150
mind. Um but yeah, Fenton, you you're


00:35:14.160 --> 00:35:16.630
right. Uh it is something uh that


00:35:16.640 --> 00:35:19.430
exists. Is it something to worry about?


00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:20.510
Oh


00:35:20.520 --> 00:35:24.710
gosh, maybe a bit. But I think overall


00:35:24.720 --> 00:35:26.870
the science fraternity's got enough


00:35:26.880 --> 00:35:29.670
integrity and certainly an abundance of


00:35:29.680 --> 00:35:32.550
intelligence to get past it and stick to


00:35:32.560 --> 00:35:36.270
the facts. That's that's how I read it.


00:35:36.280 --> 00:35:38.870
Um yeah, I think that's pretty well all


00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:40.310
we can say about it. What do you reckon,


00:35:40.320 --> 00:35:43.990
Fred? Yeah, there's um you know, we


00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:46.710
there's an almost endless list of of


00:35:46.720 --> 00:35:48.349
things, you


00:35:48.359 --> 00:35:50.870
know, the Apollo astronauts never went


00:35:50.880 --> 00:35:52.790
to the moon. another piece of fake news,


00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:56.470
all of that kind of thing. Uh it's um it


00:35:56.480 --> 00:35:58.390
so it sort of borders into conspiracy


00:35:58.400 --> 00:36:00.550
theory uh some of the time as well. It


00:36:00.560 --> 00:36:03.190
feeds into the same sort of psychology


00:36:03.200 --> 00:36:06.069
that lets people believe conspiracies.


00:36:06.079 --> 00:36:08.790
Yeah. Yep. Yeah. People are always


00:36:08.800 --> 00:36:10.829
looking for something to believe in


00:36:10.839 --> 00:36:13.550
and quite often they're easily


00:36:13.560 --> 00:36:17.109
duped and that happens and and yes the


00:36:17.119 --> 00:36:19.190
media needs to take a long hard look at


00:36:19.200 --> 00:36:21.190
itself and to use the Australian


00:36:21.200 --> 00:36:23.069
colloquialism give themselves an


00:36:23.079 --> 00:36:27.430
uppercut and that might solve it so yeah


00:36:27.440 --> 00:36:29.190
if you don't know what introspection


00:36:29.200 --> 00:36:31.030
means it's time you took a long hard


00:36:31.040 --> 00:36:34.150
look at yourself


00:36:34.160 --> 00:36:36.870
sorry I couldn't resist that


00:36:36.880 --> 00:36:38.550
all right thank Thank you, Fenton. U


00:36:38.560 --> 00:36:40.150
that's a that's a great topic for debate


00:36:40.160 --> 00:36:41.990
and I hope we get to talk about it again


00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:44.550
because um it won't stop. It just won't


00:36:44.560 --> 00:36:46.589
stop. Um


00:36:46.599 --> 00:36:49.109
anyway, it's all good. Uh and thanks to


00:36:49.119 --> 00:36:50.630
all our contributors. Don't forget to


00:36:50.640 --> 00:36:52.069
contribute yourself. If you have


00:36:52.079 --> 00:36:53.910
questions for us, send them to us via


00:36:53.920 --> 00:36:55.630
our website,


00:36:55.640 --> 00:36:57.710
spacenutspodcast.com,


00:36:57.720 --> 00:37:00.230
spacenuts.io. Uh a few turn up on


00:37:00.240 --> 00:37:01.990
Facebook Messenger and things like that.


00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:04.230
Um and when I remember to look, I will I


00:37:04.240 --> 00:37:06.150
will dig them up. But, uh, yeah, best to


00:37:06.160 --> 00:37:08.150
go through our website. Audio or text.


00:37:08.160 --> 00:37:10.790
We'll take them both. Uh, or you can


00:37:10.800 --> 00:37:12.630
send us a carrier pigeon if you can find


00:37:12.640 --> 00:37:16.390
one that hasn't become extinct. Um, and


00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:18.550
that brings us to the end, Fred. Thank


00:37:18.560 --> 00:37:21.190
you very much. Great pleasure, Andrew.


00:37:21.200 --> 00:37:24.390
And, uh, um, we will do it again soon, I


00:37:24.400 --> 00:37:26.790
hope. Yes, maybe next week or the week


00:37:26.800 --> 00:37:29.910
after or, you know, something like that


00:37:29.920 --> 00:37:32.230
when whenever we can get together. Uh,


00:37:32.240 --> 00:37:34.150
Bred Watson, astronomer at large. And


00:37:34.160 --> 00:37:35.430
thanks to Hugh in the studio, although


00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:36.870
he couldn't be with us today, he was too


00:37:36.880 --> 00:37:38.870
busy generating fake news. Got back to


00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:41.910
his old career like that. And from me,


00:37:41.920 --> 00:37:44.710
Andrew, thanks for your company. See you


00:37:44.720 --> 00:37:46.310
on the next episode of Space Nuts.


00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:49.030
Bye-bye. Space Nuts. You'll be listening


00:37:49.040 --> 00:37:52.390
to the Space Nuts podcast


00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:55.430
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00:37:55.440 --> 00:37:58.069
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00:37:58.079 --> 00:38:00.390
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00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:03.349
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00:38:03.359 --> 00:38:07.880
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