Decoding Martian Life Clues, The Odd Behavior of Ophi Stars, and NASA’s Artemis 2 Progress

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Kind: captions
Language: en

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This is Spacetime series 28 episode 59


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for broadcast on the 16th of May


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2025. Coming up on Spacetime, possible


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Martian bio signatures continuing to


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perplex scientists, a strange family of


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stars desperate to leave home, and the


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Artemus 2 Orion moon capsule delivered


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to NASA. All that and more coming up on


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Spaceime.


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Welcome to Spaceime with Stuart Garry.


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[Music]


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Scientists are continuing to examine the


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fascinating possible detection of bio


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signatures on Shaya Falls rock samples


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collected by NASA's Mars Perseverance


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rover in the red planet's Jezro crater


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almost a year ago. The discoveries


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continue to intrigue researchers who've


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never seen anything like it on Mars


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before. The vein-filled arrowheadshaped


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rock contains fascinating traits that


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may bear on the question of whether Mars


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was once home to microscopic life in the


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distant past billions of years ago at a


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time when the area contained running


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water. Analysis by instruments aboard


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the K-siz six world rover indicate the


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rock possesses chemical signatures and


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structures that do fit the definition of


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a possible indicator of ancient life. Of


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course, other explanations for the


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observed features are being considered


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by the science team and future research


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steps will be required if we determine


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whether or not ancient life is a valid


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explanation. The rock is the rover's


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22nd rock core sample. It was collected


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back on July the 21st as the rover


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explored the northern edge of Nareta


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valleys, an ancient river valley


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measuring some 400 meters wide that was


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carved out by water rushing into Jezro


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crater long ago. Multiple scans of


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Shaava Falls by the Rover Sherlock


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instrument indicate that it does contain


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organic compounds. Now whilst such


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carbon based molecules are considered to


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be the building blocks of life, they can


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be formed by non-biological processes.


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Perseverance project scientist Ken


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Farley from Caltech says Shaaba Falls is


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the most puzzling, complex, and


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potentially important rock ever


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investigated by the rover. On one hand,


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it's the first compelling detection of


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organic material. Distinctive colorful


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spots indicative of chemical reactions


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that microbial life could use as an


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energy source. And it's also clear


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evidence that water necessary for life


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as we know it once passed through the


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rock. On the other hand, scientists


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still are unable to determine exactly


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how this meter wide rock was formed and


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to what extent nearby rocks may have


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heated Shava Falls and contributed to


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these features. In its ongoing search


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for signs of ancient microbial life, the


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Perseverance mission has focused on


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rocks that may have been created or


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modified long ago by the presence of


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water and that's why they homeed in on


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Shayava Falls. Running the length of the


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rock are large white calcium sulfate


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veins. And between these veins are bands


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of material whose reddish color suggest


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the presence of hematite, one of the


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minerals that gives Mars its distinctive


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rusty hue. But when Perseverance took a


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closer look at these rusty regions, it


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found dozens of irregularly shaped


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millimeter size off-white splotches,


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each ringed with black material akin to


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leopard spots. Perseverance pixel


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instrument was then able to determine


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that these black halos contain both iron


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and phosphate. Now on Earth, these types


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of features are often associated with a


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fossilized record of microbes living in


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the subsurface. But of course, they


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could also occur when chemical reactions


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involving hematite turn the rock from


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red to white. And those reactions can


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release iron and phosphate, possibly


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causing the black halos to form.


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Reactions of this type can be an energy


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source for microbes. And that explains


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the association between these features


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and microbes in an earth setting. In one


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scenario Perseverance's science team are


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now considering, Shia Falls was


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initially deposited as mud with organic


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compounds mixed in. They eventually were


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cemented into rock. Later, a second


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episode of fluid flow penetrated the


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fishes in the rock, enabling mineral


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deposits that created large white


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calcium sulfate veins and resulting in


00:04:14.319 --> 00:04:16.949
the spots. While both the organic matter


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and the leopard spots are of great


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interest, they aren't the only aspects


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of the Shia Falls rock confounding


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scientists. They're also surprised to


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find that these veins were filled with


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millimeter sized crystals of olivine.


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That's a mineral that forms from magma.


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The olivine might have been related to


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rocks that were formed further upstream


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on the rim of the river valley and that


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may well have been produced by


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crystallization of magma. Now, if that's


00:04:39.520 --> 00:04:40.710
the case, scientists have another


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question to answer. Could the olivine


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and sulfate have been introduced into


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the rock in inhabitably high


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temperatures, thereby creating an


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abiotic chemical reaction that resulted


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in the leopard spots? To fully


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understand what really happened in that


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Martian River Valley at Jezro crater


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billions of years ago, scientists will


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need to bring a Shaava Falls rock sample


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back to Earth. That way can be studied


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with more powerful instruments which are


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available in laboratories.


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Perseverance's mission is to search for


00:05:07.360 --> 00:05:09.909
signs of past microbial life on the red


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planet. This report from NASA TV.


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You know, Mars is the closest place that


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we can reach with robotic exploration


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that we think had a really good chance


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of having ancient life. Jezro Crater is


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a very interesting place. It's a crater


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that once held a lake. There are a lot


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of craters on the surface of Mars that


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could have once hosted ancient lakes,


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but not every crater that we think had a


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lake actually preserves evidence that


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that lake was there. It had an inflow


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channel and it had an outflow channel.


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That means it was filled, the crater was


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filled with water. In Jezra, we have


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probably one of the most beautifully


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preserved delta deposits on Mars in that


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crater. This is a wonderful place to


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live, for microorganisms. And it is also


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a wonderful place for those


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microorganisms to be preserved so that


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we can find them now so many billions of


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years later. There is no other place on


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Mars that has the unique combination of


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a lake setting, a beautifully preserved


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delta, and the diverse minology that we


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have in Jezro Crater. So, it's truly a


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special landing site. The major goal of


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the Perseverance mission is to


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investigate astrobiology on Mars and in


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particular to address the question of


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whether life ever existed on Mars. The


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Perseverance rover starts with a design


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that's very similar to Curiosity, but


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we've added to it a whole new set of


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science instruments. And these science


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instruments were purposefully selected


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to help us in the search for bio


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signatures. One of the major upgrades


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that Perseverance has from Curiosity is


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that it's able to self-drive for a


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distance of up to 200 m per day. As the


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rover is driving, it's literally


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building the map of the road it's


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driving on on Mars. Scientists for years


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have told us that to really unlock the


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secrets of Mars, we have to bring


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samples from Mars back to Earth. So,


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what Mars 2020 is going to do is to


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drill samples, put them in small tubes.


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We're going to seal it in its own


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individual tube. We set them on the


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surface to provide a target for the


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second two missions. which hopefully


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we'll get in development in the next


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several years and could potentially get


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the samples back to Earth by


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2031. Perseverance is a very very


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profound first step in both our


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understanding of our place in the


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universe and a stepping stone towards


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human exploration on Mars.


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[Music]


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And in that report from NASA TV, we


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heard from Perseverance deputy project


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scientist Ken Farley from Caltech and


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Perseverance deputy project scientist


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Katie Stack Morgan. This is spaceime.


00:07:58.639 --> 00:08:00.869
Still to come, the odd family of stars


00:08:00.879 --> 00:08:02.869
desperately seeking to leave home and


00:08:02.879 --> 00:08:04.950
the Arteimus 2 Orion moon capsule


00:08:04.960 --> 00:08:07.110
finally delivered to NASA in preparation


00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:09.430
for next year's man moon mission. All


00:08:09.440 --> 00:08:14.790
that and more still to come on Spaceime.


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Okay, let's take a break from our show


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And now it's back to our


00:10:09.430 --> 00:10:17.230
[Music]


00:10:17.240 --> 00:10:19.590
show. Astronomers have discovered a


00:10:19.600 --> 00:10:21.509
strange cluster of more than a thousand


00:10:21.519 --> 00:10:24.550
stars acting in a really unusual way.


00:10:24.560 --> 00:10:27.430
And no one knows why. Stars in the Milky


00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:29.430
Way tend to form in families with


00:10:29.440 --> 00:10:31.590
similar stars all springing to life in


00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:33.350
roughly the same place at roughly the


00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:36.230
same time. These stars then later head


00:10:36.240 --> 00:10:38.870
out into the wider galaxy, usually in


00:10:38.880 --> 00:10:41.430
pairs or triplets, sometimes, as is the


00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:44.069
case with our sun as a solo traveler.


00:10:44.079 --> 00:10:45.750
While smaller stellar groups can


00:10:45.760 --> 00:10:47.829
completely dissipate, siblings from


00:10:47.839 --> 00:10:49.990
larger families are often held together


00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:52.230
by their mutual gravitational attraction


00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:53.829
and therefore they continue to move


00:10:53.839 --> 00:10:56.310
through space as a single group.


00:10:56.320 --> 00:10:58.150
Now, using data from the European Space


00:10:58.160 --> 00:11:00.310
Ay's Gaia mission, astronomers have


00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:02.389
identified a close cluster of over a


00:11:02.399 --> 00:11:04.069
thousand young stars, which they've


00:11:04.079 --> 00:11:05.910
named Ofon, which are not sticking


00:11:05.920 --> 00:11:07.870
together, but instead rapidly


00:11:07.880 --> 00:11:09.910
dispersing. The study's lead author,


00:11:09.920 --> 00:11:11.670
Dylan Houston, from Western Washington


00:11:11.680 --> 00:11:13.750
University, says Ofon is filled with


00:11:13.760 --> 00:11:15.430
stars that are set to rush out across


00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:17.670
the galaxy in a totally haphazard,


00:11:17.680 --> 00:11:19.990
uncoordinated way. And that's far from


00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:22.389
what's expected from a cluster so big.


00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:24.470
And what's more, it'll all happen in a


00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:25.910
fraction of the time it would usually


00:11:25.920 --> 00:11:28.470
take for such a large family to scatter.


00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:30.550
It's like no other stellar family he's


00:11:30.560 --> 00:11:33.350
ever seen before. The discovery reported


00:11:33.360 --> 00:11:35.269
in the astrophysical journal was made


00:11:35.279 --> 00:11:37.269
using observations from Gaia's third


00:11:37.279 --> 00:11:39.670
data release. The authors developed a


00:11:39.680 --> 00:11:41.590
new model to explore Gaia's vast


00:11:41.600 --> 00:11:44.150
unrivaled trove of spectroscopic data,


00:11:44.160 --> 00:11:45.910
specifically searching for young stars


00:11:45.920 --> 00:11:48.790
less than 20 million years old. And it


00:11:48.800 --> 00:11:51.190
was during this study that aon shone


00:11:51.200 --> 00:11:54.069
out. But the question remains, why is


00:11:54.079 --> 00:11:56.710
Ofon behaving so unusually? Now,


00:11:56.720 --> 00:11:58.310
astronomers have come up with several


00:11:58.320 --> 00:12:00.790
possible options. See, the cluster


00:12:00.800 --> 00:12:03.590
resides around 650 light years away, and


00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:05.190
it's near some other massive young


00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:06.949
stellar groups and energetic events


00:12:06.959 --> 00:12:08.870
within, and interactions between these


00:12:08.880 --> 00:12:10.389
colossal neighbors may well have


00:12:10.399 --> 00:12:13.110
influenced a Theon throughout the years.


00:12:13.120 --> 00:12:15.269
There are also signs that stars may have


00:12:15.279 --> 00:12:17.190
exploded here in the past and these


00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:19.509
supernova bursts may have swept material


00:12:19.519 --> 00:12:21.750
away from a theon, causing its stars to


00:12:21.760 --> 00:12:23.670
move more rapidly apart from each other


00:12:23.680 --> 00:12:26.389
and onto their current radical paths.


00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:28.470
Whatever the real reason, this discovery


00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:30.150
changes how scientists think about


00:12:30.160 --> 00:12:32.310
stellar groups and also how to find


00:12:32.320 --> 00:12:34.230
them. Previous methods identified


00:12:34.240 --> 00:12:35.990
families by clustering similar moving


00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:37.829
stars together, but a Fion would have


00:12:37.839 --> 00:12:40.990
slipped through that net. This is


00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:44.069
spaceime. Still to come, NASA's Artemis


00:12:44.079 --> 00:12:46.389
2 Orion moon capsule finally delivered,


00:12:46.399 --> 00:12:48.629
ready for its man mission to the moon.


00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:50.470
And later in the science report,


00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:52.629
warnings that parents using phones and


00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:54.470
tablets around their kids may be


00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:56.629
affecting their children's health. All


00:12:56.639 --> 00:12:59.820
that and more still to come on Spaceime.


00:12:59.830 --> 00:13:14.389
[Music]


00:13:14.399 --> 00:13:16.389
The return of humans to the moon is a


00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:18.550
step closer with the Orion capsule to be


00:13:18.560 --> 00:13:20.389
used for the manned Artemis 2 lunar


00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:23.030
mission officially handed over to NASA.


00:13:23.040 --> 00:13:24.629
The spacecraft which was built by


00:13:24.639 --> 00:13:26.870
Lockheed Martin has finalized assembly


00:13:26.880 --> 00:13:28.310
and testing and it's now been


00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:30.470
transferred to NASA's space exploration


00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:33.430
ground systems team. A ride is NASA's


00:13:33.440 --> 00:13:35.990
most advanced humanrated spacecraft and


00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:37.750
it's been specially designed for deep


00:13:37.760 --> 00:13:40.629
space exploration. While Artemus 1


00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:42.310
undertook an unmanned mission to the


00:13:42.320 --> 00:13:44.949
moon and back again, Artemis 2 will


00:13:44.959 --> 00:13:47.750
carry a crew of four on a 10-day flight


00:13:47.760 --> 00:13:49.590
that will circle the moon and travel


00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:52.389
7,400 km beyond lunar orbit for


00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:54.790
eventually returning to Earth. Building


00:13:54.800 --> 00:13:57.189
on the lessons of Artemus 1, the Orion


00:13:57.199 --> 00:13:59.269
used for Artemus 2 has been equipped


00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:01.430
with new life support systems, user


00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:03.430
interfaces, voice communications,


00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:05.350
thermal and waste control, a fitness


00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:07.430
device, and a fully integrated launch


00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:09.910
abort system. The new technologies on


00:14:09.920 --> 00:14:11.829
board the spacecraft also include a


00:14:11.839 --> 00:14:13.829
partial squared of docking sensors, and


00:14:13.839 --> 00:14:15.829
a prototype laser communications unit


00:14:15.839 --> 00:14:18.550
for testing high-speed data transfer.


00:14:18.560 --> 00:14:20.710
NASA's exploration ground systems team


00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:22.230
will now handle final launch


00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:24.629
preparations. The spacecraft will then


00:14:24.639 --> 00:14:26.230
be transferred from the Neil Armstrong


00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:27.750
operations and checkout building at the


00:14:27.760 --> 00:14:29.670
Kennedy Space Center to the nearby


00:14:29.680 --> 00:14:31.430
processing facilities. That's where


00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:33.269
propellants, oxygen, and water will be


00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:35.750
loaded. The launch abort system and its


00:14:35.760 --> 00:14:37.350
protective fairings will also be


00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:39.750
installed there. Orion will then be


00:14:39.760 --> 00:14:42.069
moved to NASA's iconic vehicle assembly


00:14:42.079 --> 00:14:44.230
building and finally lifted in position


00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:46.710
on top of its giant space launch systems


00:14:46.720 --> 00:14:50.069
SLS heavy lift rocket. Mus 2's launch is


00:14:50.079 --> 00:14:52.389
currently slated for early next year and


00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:54.150
it'll be used to validate Orion's


00:14:54.160 --> 00:14:56.470
performance in space with a crew testing


00:14:56.480 --> 00:14:58.389
guidance, navigation, communications,


00:14:58.399 --> 00:15:00.870
and mission operations. The flight also


00:15:00.880 --> 00:15:02.710
includes a rendevous exercise with the


00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:05.350
SLS upper stage. That's a key dress


00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:07.670
rehearsal for the historic Artemis 3


00:15:07.680 --> 00:15:10.069
manned lunar landing mission, a 30-day


00:15:10.079 --> 00:15:13.350
flight currently slated for mid 2027.


00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:15.269
Meanwhile, Loheed Martin's continuing


00:15:15.279 --> 00:15:17.269
construction of its Orion spacecraft for


00:15:17.279 --> 00:15:19.189
both the Arteimus 3 and Aremus 4


00:15:19.199 --> 00:15:21.670
missions at the Kennedy Space Center and


00:15:21.680 --> 00:15:23.750
the Artemis 5 spacecraft's pressure


00:15:23.760 --> 00:15:25.590
vessel is now in the early stages of


00:15:25.600 --> 00:15:27.750
manufacture in NASA's assembly facility


00:15:27.760 --> 00:15:30.710
at New Orleans in Louisiana. Work will


00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:32.310
then move forward towards the future


00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:36.069
Artemis 6, 7, and 8 spacecraft. This


00:15:36.079 --> 00:15:39.260
spaceime


00:15:39.270 --> 00:15:53.189
[Music]


00:15:53.199 --> 00:15:55.030
And time now to take another brief look


00:15:55.040 --> 00:15:56.470
at some of the other stories making news


00:15:56.480 --> 00:15:58.670
in science this week with a science


00:15:58.680 --> 00:16:01.189
report. A new study claims that parents


00:16:01.199 --> 00:16:03.269
who use technology such as phones and


00:16:03.279 --> 00:16:05.189
tablets around their kids may be having


00:16:05.199 --> 00:16:07.030
a negative impact on their children's


00:16:07.040 --> 00:16:09.269
health and development. The findings


00:16:09.279 --> 00:16:10.629
reported in the Journal of the American


00:16:10.639 --> 00:16:12.870
Medical Association pulled together data


00:16:12.880 --> 00:16:15.430
from 21 separate studies involving some


00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:17.910
15,000 people, finding that young kids


00:16:17.920 --> 00:16:19.670
of parents who use technology around


00:16:19.680 --> 00:16:21.590
them a lot had poorer cognition and


00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:24.150
psychosocial outcomes. However, the


00:16:24.160 --> 00:16:25.990
study also found that while the effects


00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:27.590
were real and present, they were


00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:31.030
classified as being fairly small.


00:16:31.040 --> 00:16:33.110
A man who injected himself with snake


00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:36.230
venom 856 times has helped to create an


00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:38.870
antivenenine for all snake bites. A


00:16:38.880 --> 00:16:40.790
report of the journal cell says that


00:16:40.800 --> 00:16:42.949
over a period of 18 years, the man


00:16:42.959 --> 00:16:44.870
developed a cocktail of antibodies which


00:16:44.880 --> 00:16:46.230
have been used in combination with a


00:16:46.240 --> 00:16:48.550
drug vessib to protect against snake


00:16:48.560 --> 00:16:50.629
bites from 19 different species


00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:52.550
including Australia's deadly eastern


00:16:52.560 --> 00:16:55.189
brown snakes, inland taipans and tiger


00:16:55.199 --> 00:16:57.509
snakes. The study says the man had


00:16:57.519 --> 00:16:59.509
independently chosen to inject himself


00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:01.269
with snake venom from a variety of


00:17:01.279 --> 00:17:03.110
different snakes and in doing so


00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:05.350
generated a range of antibodies in his


00:17:05.360 --> 00:17:07.270
body which could neutralize a range of


00:17:07.280 --> 00:17:10.069
snake venoms. The cocktail of antibodies


00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:11.669
together with the drug gave full


00:17:11.679 --> 00:17:14.069
protection against 13 of the 19 snakes


00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:15.829
and partial protection against the


00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:18.230
remaining six.


00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:20.309
A new study claims growing peas and


00:17:20.319 --> 00:17:22.710
potatoes could help feed a city in times


00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:24.870
of a global catastrophe which disrupted


00:17:24.880 --> 00:17:26.829
fuel supplies and restricted food


00:17:26.839 --> 00:17:29.190
transport. The findings reported in the


00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:31.350
journal plus one admit that while it's a


00:17:31.360 --> 00:17:33.350
radical pivot to urban and near urban


00:17:33.360 --> 00:17:35.350
agriculture, it nevertheless could offer


00:17:35.360 --> 00:17:37.909
a solution to a growing threat. The


00:17:37.919 --> 00:17:39.669
authors were modeling a case study


00:17:39.679 --> 00:17:41.430
showing that planting of home gardens


00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:43.830
and parks in peas could provide 20% of


00:17:43.840 --> 00:17:45.750
the food needed to supply a city the


00:17:45.760 --> 00:17:47.430
size of say Palmyister North in New


00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:49.750
Zealand and areas near the city could


00:17:49.760 --> 00:17:51.590
also grow potatoes to supply the


00:17:51.600 --> 00:17:54.070
remainder along with bofuel crops to run


00:17:54.080 --> 00:17:56.310
farming equipment. While there would be


00:17:56.320 --> 00:17:58.150
many challenges affecting how it all


00:17:58.160 --> 00:17:59.909
works in practice, the authors recommend


00:17:59.919 --> 00:18:01.750
that cities focus on protecting and


00:18:01.760 --> 00:18:04.310
reszoning nearby agricultural land and


00:18:04.320 --> 00:18:06.470
set up expertise and infrastructure for


00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:08.590
urban and near urban


00:18:08.600 --> 00:18:11.029
farming. A landmark court ruling in


00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:13.110
Spain has reaffirmed that Gestalt


00:18:13.120 --> 00:18:15.510
Therapy lacks scientific validity and


00:18:15.520 --> 00:18:17.669
operates in ways that resemble sectarian


00:18:17.679 --> 00:18:20.310
structures. The decision dismissed a


00:18:20.320 --> 00:18:22.310
lawsuit filed by the Spanish Association


00:18:22.320 --> 00:18:24.710
of Gestab Therapy which sought financial


00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:26.549
compensation and retraction of a


00:18:26.559 --> 00:18:29.590
critical report on Gesttop therapy. Tim


00:18:29.600 --> 00:18:31.590
Mendum from Australian Skeptic says


00:18:31.600 --> 00:18:33.590
instead the court ordered the


00:18:33.600 --> 00:18:35.830
association be responsible for paying


00:18:35.840 --> 00:18:37.990
all costs. Okay, Gesttop therapy is


00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:38.990
something that's come out of the


00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:41.350
psychoanalytic movement. It basically


00:18:41.360 --> 00:18:43.430
says it's psychoanalysis without the


00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:44.549
past. You know how sort of


00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:46.230
psychotherapists would come in and say


00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:47.430
think about your past. Think about


00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:48.470
terrible things that happened to your


00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:50.470
traumas in the past. Gestalt therapy is


00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:52.390
a response to that and suggesting no


00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:53.590
don't go to the past. Let's look at the


00:18:53.600 --> 00:18:54.870
here and now. What are your problems


00:18:54.880 --> 00:18:57.909
now? And basically it has been derided


00:18:57.919 --> 00:19:00.870
as a bit of a motivational type course.


00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:02.230
You sit there in a therapy session


00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:03.909
either one-on-one with a therapist or it


00:19:03.919 --> 00:19:05.430
might be a group session all around in a


00:19:05.440 --> 00:19:07.190
circle etc. And you talk about all your


00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:08.950
problems of what you like etc. So it's a


00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:10.789
bit of digging into your soul. And the


00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:12.470
problem is that there are issues with a


00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:13.669
lot of psychoanalytical and


00:19:13.679 --> 00:19:15.669
psychotherrapeutic techniques that come


00:19:15.679 --> 00:19:17.430
along. Are they scientific? Right? How


00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:19.190
much evidence is there for them? The


00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:21.110
refreshed memory idea that you have this


00:19:21.120 --> 00:19:22.789
trauma in your youth which you have


00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:24.870
successfully covered up the remnants of


00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:26.470
that causes all sort of psychological


00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:27.990
problems in your later life and you have


00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:29.830
to go through a psychotherapy session.


00:19:29.840 --> 00:19:31.430
You lie down, you go into a hypnotic


00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:33.270
state and you relive that thing does not


00:19:33.280 --> 00:19:35.029
exist. It's actually been proved to be


00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:37.350
very very dodgy. This hidden memory


00:19:37.360 --> 00:19:39.029
theory because basically most people who


00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:40.630
have been through a traumatic experience


00:19:40.640 --> 00:19:42.630
only remember it too well. So hiding it


00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:44.150
would be a nice thing but they don't.


00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:45.909
But it's a handy excuse for trying to


00:19:45.919 --> 00:19:47.750
explain sort of strange behavior. This


00:19:47.760 --> 00:19:49.510
gestal therapy says no, not in the past.


00:19:49.520 --> 00:19:51.430
Let's look at you now. Okay, obviously


00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:53.350
this disagreement over Freudian


00:19:53.360 --> 00:19:54.950
psychotherapy. Look at you now. The


00:19:54.960 --> 00:19:56.630
trouble is, is it true? Is there any


00:19:56.640 --> 00:19:58.150
science behind it? Is it just a nice


00:19:58.160 --> 00:20:00.230
thing to do to talk about yourself and


00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:02.470
reveal your feelings and try and find


00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:04.310
some sort of reasons why you are acting


00:20:04.320 --> 00:20:06.150
the way you are or why you're unhappy?


00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:08.630
It is a bit cultish. The problem is that


00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:10.710
in some cases the patient gets very


00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:13.190
attached in whatever way to the


00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:15.350
therapist. They rely on the therapist.


00:20:15.360 --> 00:20:16.630
This is this happens with you know


00:20:16.640 --> 00:20:18.470
standard psychotherapy anyway with a


00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:19.830
group. It can be a bit sort of


00:20:19.840 --> 00:20:21.830
self-generating. So is it scientific? So


00:20:21.840 --> 00:20:23.590
someone in Spain wrote a report on


00:20:23.600 --> 00:20:26.070
gestalt therapy. They suggested no there


00:20:26.080 --> 00:20:27.510
there ain't no science here. It's all


00:20:27.520 --> 00:20:29.270
just something developed over the years


00:20:29.280 --> 00:20:30.870
has become very influential. You get


00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:32.470
universities and things picking it up


00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:33.990
not just studying it but using it


00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:35.830
applying it. This report said no. The


00:20:35.840 --> 00:20:38.230
Gestalt therapy group in Spain said,


00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:40.870
"Hang on, that's lialous to us. We're


00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:42.310
going to sue you because you said what


00:20:42.320 --> 00:20:43.830
we're doing is unscientific." They took


00:20:43.840 --> 00:20:45.110
it to court and the court came down and


00:20:45.120 --> 00:20:46.950
said, "Yep, it's unscientific." And the


00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:49.110
Gustalt group has to now pay costs. And


00:20:49.120 --> 00:20:50.470
as someone pointed out, if you were


00:20:50.480 --> 00:20:52.310
really in a real science, you'd argue it


00:20:52.320 --> 00:20:53.750
out. You debate it and I'm sure they


00:20:53.760 --> 00:20:55.190
probably have been debating gestalt


00:20:55.200 --> 00:20:56.789
therapy for a while. It certainly is a


00:20:56.799 --> 00:20:58.149
lot of stuff out there. I think it's


00:20:58.159 --> 00:20:59.590
great. It's wonderful. Written by the


00:20:59.600 --> 00:21:01.990
gestalt therapy people by and large. But


00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:03.590
if you're real science, you would put it


00:21:03.600 --> 00:21:04.870
in the scientific arena and you say,


00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:06.230
"Here's the evidence. You give me the


00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:07.590
counter evidence. Let's argue it out."


00:21:07.600 --> 00:21:09.110
Rather than just go take it to court for


00:21:09.120 --> 00:21:10.950
liel. So that had a bad taste in a lot


00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:12.630
of people's mouth, especially when they


00:21:12.640 --> 00:21:14.310
could therapist when they were classed


00:21:14.320 --> 00:21:15.990
as being unscientific. And if you look


00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:17.669
at it, there's a lot of information


00:21:17.679 --> 00:21:19.430
about it. There's a lot of scientific


00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:21.990
trimmings about it. There sciency words.


00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:24.230
Any theory like this worth that salt


00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:26.230
does drag up a lot of sciency sort of


00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:28.390
explanations. But is it science or is it


00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:30.149
just a lot of words? Well, the Spanish


00:21:30.159 --> 00:21:32.070
court said no, it's not fine. That's Tim


00:21:32.080 --> 00:21:36.440
Mindum from Australian


00:21:36.450 --> 00:21:48.830
[Music]


00:21:48.840 --> 00:21:52.070
Skeptics. And that's the show for now.


00:21:52.080 --> 00:21:53.990
Spacetime is available every Monday,


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Spacetime with StewartGarry. This has


00:22:47.360 --> 00:22:49.510
been another quality podcast production


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from byes.com.