Dark Energy, Cosmic Selfies & Baby Moons | Space Nuts: Exploring the Cosmos

WEBVTT
Kind: captions
Language: en

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hi there thanks for joining us this is


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Space Nuts my name is Andrew Dunley your


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host and it's good to have your company


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i hope you're well uh coming up we're


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going to talk dark energy again but uh


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this time it's a very different story


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and uh there's even potential for a gnab


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gibb uh also some exciting news from the


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square kilometer array and baby


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exoplanets and their baby moons we'll


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talk about all of that on this episode


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of Space Nuts 15 seconds guidance is


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internal 10 9 Ignition sequence start


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space nuts 5 4 3 2 1 2 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1


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Space nuts astronauts reported feels


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good yep and it's very good to have


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Professor Fred Watson back in the chair


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astronomer at large hello Fred hello


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Andrew nice to see you again and you too


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and making us look extra uglier is Heidi


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Campo and Heidi will be will be our


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guest host while I take a a few weeks


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off uh in the couple of episodes time


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but Heidi's going to um be a part of


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these next couple of shows learning the


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ropes learning how to handle Fred that's


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always difficult um plenty of other


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things hi Heidi welcome again hi guys


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i'm sure Fred will not need too much


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handling


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well she's m that now she's my title uh


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has changed from astronomer at large to


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the astronomer on the loose so you know


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that told its own story really yeah yeah


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he's a wild boy he sure is


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uh anyway Heidi jump in anytime if


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you've got a question or a thought or a


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comment or you or you just want to leave


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whatever you whatever suits you it's all


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good um let's start by a um a story


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without notice uh which we gave notice


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of last week and that was the return to


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earth of PCH Wilmore and Sunni Williams


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they are back on Earth after their 10day


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mission which ended up being 286 days


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I'm told that's um that's quite


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incredible uh one of the things that um


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fascinated me was as soon as they


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splashed down a pot of dolphins circled


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the spacecraft i thought that was really


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cute but they're back on Earth uh I I


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did a bit more reading on what went


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wrong um the the poor old Star Liner um


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it it showed some some booster problems


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but then there was another problem with


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leaks uh and they


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decided to not send them back on it just


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in case and it came back to back to


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ground safely of course and then it was


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all about how do we get them back to


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Earth and there was remember Fred we


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were talking about the um uh lack of


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compatibility of their space suits i


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mean all these all these problems just


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kept piling up and uh it turned their


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mission into um yeah something much much


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bigger i reckon they'll make a movie


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they will make a movie about this i


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think I think you're probably right


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fortunately we know it has a happy


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ending so that's Yes yes well I I think


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there's enough in the story to warrant a


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movie because u there were there were um


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things that happened on the space


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station that involved them uh like


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record-breaking space walks and um I


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think soon he became the the the


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commander of the ISIS was there for a


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while and um and of course then early


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this year um the US president and the


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Elon Musk got involved i mean it just


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you know it's got movie written all over


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it I reckon um I don't know Heidi what's


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it what's the I mean our perspective


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might be different you you're in Houston


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you're sort of at the bold face


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certainly am in Houston um well I think


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as far as the American opinion versus


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the Houston opinion is a little bit


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different it seems like and I can't


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speak for all Americans but it seems


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like a lot of Americans are um mixed


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mixed bag of nuts and it's some people


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are really happy that the astronauts are


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finally back i'm sure the astronauts are


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happy that they're back yeah um and then


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some people are you know hailing the


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rescue mission but you know here in


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Houston everyone's saying "Hey you know


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this is this is what they train for this


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is what they plan for." And there is not


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a single astronaut that's going to be


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upset about bonus time in space and this


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was not um it was it seems like an


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emergency situation cuz we watch movies


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like Gravity where everything goes wrong


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and we're just thinking complete chaos


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but for them it's it's this is this is


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what they do they're professionals and


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while it may seem like a big chunk of


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time this just gave the astronauts more


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time to do what they love to do and


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that's uh I think it's a beautiful thing


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and it wasn't um kind of the way that


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some people are seeing it you know the


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astronauts are fine and this was planned


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for them to come back at this time yeah


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i suppose what happens now is they've


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got to get their Earth bodies back um


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because being in space for a long period


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of time as Fred and I have discussed uh


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can have a big impact on your on your um


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skeletal and muscular systems and


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getting back on Earth is um it's it's a


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it's a task yes and that's that's


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actually the research that I'm


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specializing in right now is the


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countermeasures in um human spaceflight


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research and getting them back to


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uh Earth gravity ability yeah well it


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looks like we picked the right person to


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take over from me Fred so um I won't be


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coming back


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um but um it's good news butch and Sunni


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back on Earth and um celebrating


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Christmas a couple of months late uh now


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uh we are going to look at this uh story


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that's popped up i I spotted this the


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other day Fred uh about uh dark energy


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and I read the whole story my brain hurt


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i took a couple of ibuprofen and settled


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down and then I thought about it and I


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simplified it by saying dark energy may


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not be doing what we first thought and I


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also saw a reference to the possible um


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return to the collapse of our universe


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sometime in the long long distant future


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we hope um so this is a really


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interesting story to unpack


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it is indeed and it's a story that um I


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guess uh it's still only a quai story in


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that uh the the evidence that is being


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presented for dark energy weakening over


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time is still tentative if I can put it


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that way and admittedly so the the the


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authors of of this study are not saying


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"Yes we've we've firmly discovered that


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dark energy is weakening." It it's it's


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they're presenting it in in those terms


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a tentative


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u discovery so um what what are we


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talking about here uh back in 1998


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um we thought the universe was well


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behaved and gravity of everything in it


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would pull it together and one day it


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would collapse on itself in what some


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call the big crunch but you and I know


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the correct term is the ganib gab which


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is the big bang backwards courtesy of


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Brian Schmidtz uh and um that was


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apparently blown out of the water by


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Brian Schmidt and Saul Pulut Pelmuta and


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few other scientists who had two


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separate projects looking at the


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expansion of the universe in detail and


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suddenly we realized that the expansion


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of the universe is accelerating in other


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words it's getting bigger faster and so


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um that led to the concept of dark


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energy as being the sort of propulsive


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source for this an energy excuse me of


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space itself some essence of space that


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uh as space gets bigger this energy gets


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bigger as well so the the thing is you


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know it's a it's a a system that is


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self-propelling in the sense that it you


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know the the the bigger the volume of


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space more energy you've got and um the


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simplest assumption that you can make


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about that is that it can be represented


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by in the equations of the expansion of


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the universe by something we call the


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cosmological constant which is a it's a


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crap name really to tell you what it's


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about but it was that was um effectively


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a term in an equation that was inserted


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by a gentleman by the name of Albert


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Einstein uh when uh he realized that his


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equations of relativity wanted to make


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the universe expand or contract and at


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the time back in 1915 he thought it


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wasn't doing any of those things uh so


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he put this cosmological constant in to


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stop the expansion in the in the


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theoretical basis uh then of course in


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1929 Edwin Hubble discovered that the


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universe is expanding and Einstein later


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called it his greatest blunder uh but


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that is not what we have seen it since


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1998 because cosmology has really


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adopted the cosmological constant as


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being the most likely


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um interpretation of the acceleration of


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the universe and of what dark energy is


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doing it's saying it's proportional to


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the size of the universe so the more


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universe you've got the more dark energy


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you've got you can however test that and


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I remember giving talks on this probably


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15 years ago uh where people were


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talking about testing it by looking at


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the large scale geometry of the universe


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uh which is traced by uh galaxies and


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these strings of galaxies and filaments


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of galaxies and and membranes of


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galaxies in in in the wider universe


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this sort of honeycomb structure that we


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know the the galaxies occupy um and so


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if you if you can map that accurately


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then you can get an insights into


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actually not just dark energy but dark


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matter things like the nutrino content


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of the universe this all drops out of


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the way the geometry uh has developed in


00:10:41.760 --> 00:10:43.910
the history you know the 13.8 billion


00:10:43.920 --> 00:10:47.430
year history of the universe oh um back


00:10:47.440 --> 00:10:50.790
in Australia in the early 2000s a survey


00:10:50.800 --> 00:10:53.430
of the positions of galaxies was started


00:10:53.440 --> 00:10:56.470
what's called the 2DF uh galaxy survey


00:10:56.480 --> 00:10:58.550
2df being the twoderee field system on


00:10:58.560 --> 00:11:00.150
the Anglo Australian telescope that


00:11:00.160 --> 00:11:03.509
mapped galaxies uh out to about 2 and a


00:11:03.519 --> 00:11:06.630
half billion light years away fast


00:11:06.640 --> 00:11:09.910
forward to 2025 and we now have surveys


00:11:09.920 --> 00:11:12.870
that are mapping galaxies back to 11


00:11:12.880 --> 00:11:15.590
billion light years away and that's


00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:18.630
where the cracks are starting to show up


00:11:18.640 --> 00:11:20.870
in the cosmological constant because the


00:11:20.880 --> 00:11:22.790
evidence coming from something called


00:11:22.800 --> 00:11:25.190
the dark energy survey instrument uh


00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:26.949
which is on a telescope very similar to


00:11:26.959 --> 00:11:29.670
our Anglo Australian telescope uh at Kit


00:11:29.680 --> 00:11:32.630
Peak in Arizona the male telescope uh


00:11:32.640 --> 00:11:35.350
that uh is starting to show because


00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:38.389
they've they've basically evaluated uh


00:11:38.399 --> 00:11:40.470
the geometry of the universe over these


00:11:40.480 --> 00:11:43.910
much greater look back times um it looks


00:11:43.920 --> 00:11:46.630
as though dark energy was stronger 11


00:11:46.640 --> 00:11:50.230
billion years ago than it is now uh and


00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:53.790
that's as I said it's not a conclusive


00:11:53.800 --> 00:11:57.990
um deal yet but the evidence is strong


00:11:58.000 --> 00:11:59.590
enough that people are really getting


00:11:59.600 --> 00:12:02.150
excited about it because we don't


00:12:02.160 --> 00:12:05.190
understand it we It's not predicted by


00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:07.590
relativity m and and that's what makes


00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:09.509
it so complicated and hard to get


00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:12.790
through your head but um the the the


00:12:12.800 --> 00:12:14.629
scenarios that the popular press have


00:12:14.639 --> 00:12:17.509
jumped on is uh look if the universe


00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:19.430
continues to expand at an


00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:21.190
everinccreasing rate which is the


00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:24.870
current thinking it will ultimately rip


00:12:24.880 --> 00:12:27.509
um but if this new study is right and


00:12:27.519 --> 00:12:31.509
things are slowing down it might just


00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:35.190
collapse back in on itself um if none of


00:12:35.200 --> 00:12:37.430
none of those things happen and the


00:12:37.440 --> 00:12:39.829
universe just sort of hangs like on a


00:12:39.839 --> 00:12:42.790
street corner uh it it will just


00:12:42.800 --> 00:12:46.069
eventually burn out and become a cold


00:12:46.079 --> 00:12:49.030
dark place so they're the three


00:12:49.040 --> 00:12:51.590
potential fates aren't they uh yes


00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:53.990
that's right well as as we understand it


00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:58.949
as we um the the thing about this is um


00:12:58.959 --> 00:13:02.629
if it if it shows holes in relativity


00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:04.470
and that's the exciting bit you people


00:13:04.480 --> 00:13:07.030
have been looking for cracks in the


00:13:07.040 --> 00:13:09.670
theory of relativity basically for 100


00:13:09.680 --> 00:13:14.949
years um because relativity is such a


00:13:14.959 --> 00:13:17.910
good theory um it's very hard to find


00:13:17.920 --> 00:13:21.910
any anything in it that does that is not


00:13:21.920 --> 00:13:24.150
um replicated in the real universe you


00:13:24.160 --> 00:13:26.069
know the theory predicts the real


00:13:26.079 --> 00:13:29.269
universe very very accurately indeed uh


00:13:29.279 --> 00:13:32.550
but there are some things that we think


00:13:32.560 --> 00:13:34.949
are anomalous you know there's this


00:13:34.959 --> 00:13:38.069
tension between quantum theory and


00:13:38.079 --> 00:13:41.670
relativity theory uh there's there's


00:13:41.680 --> 00:13:43.590
dark energy itself which we don't really


00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:45.030
understand and there's dark matter which


00:13:45.040 --> 00:13:47.110
we don't really understand either and


00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:50.790
these are all things that maybe need new


00:13:50.800 --> 00:13:54.230
physical theories to understand and so


00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:55.990
when you start finding cracks in


00:13:56.000 --> 00:13:57.990
relativity maybe that is going to give


00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:00.870
us a window into these new ideas that


00:14:00.880 --> 00:14:04.310
might let us understand what dark matter


00:14:04.320 --> 00:14:07.590
is what dark energy is how quantum


00:14:07.600 --> 00:14:10.470
physics uh interacts with relativity how


00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:13.430
the two come together and you never know


00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:15.030
andrew some of that might actually be


00:14:15.040 --> 00:14:17.350
useful it might be stuff that we could


00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:20.389
make use of uh on the human scale in a


00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:22.230
in a similar way to the fact that


00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:25.269
relativity lets us have a GPS system in


00:14:25.279 --> 00:14:29.509
one of these yeah yeah absolutely uh and


00:14:29.519 --> 00:14:32.310
Einstein himself always believed that


00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:35.910
his general theory of uh theory of


00:14:35.920 --> 00:14:39.189
general relativity was flawed


00:14:39.199 --> 00:14:41.430
we just haven't found the cracks yet he


00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:43.750
did he went through his life looking for


00:14:43.760 --> 00:14:47.910
um the evidence of exactly as you've


00:14:47.920 --> 00:14:50.310
said um flaws in general relativity new


00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:53.030
physics that would in in his case


00:14:53.040 --> 00:14:57.550
principally unify um dark sorry unify


00:14:57.560 --> 00:15:01.189
quantum mechanics and general relativity


00:15:01.199 --> 00:15:02.790
he didn't know about dark matter from


00:15:02.800 --> 00:15:06.230
dark energy he died in 1955 well before


00:15:06.240 --> 00:15:07.829
uh actually we knew about dark matter


00:15:07.839 --> 00:15:09.590
then but nobody talked about it because


00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:11.590
it was too hard to understand but anyway


00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:13.829
he didn't know about those things yeah


00:15:13.839 --> 00:15:16.790
uh it could but as you said this this is


00:15:16.800 --> 00:15:20.389
um only and a theory that's in it its


00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:22.710
infancy they've got a lot more work to


00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:25.829
do to you know um to figure out whether


00:15:25.839 --> 00:15:27.910
or not they're right uh and we're we're


00:15:27.920 --> 00:15:29.829
heading for a big crunch or whatever you


00:15:29.839 --> 00:15:32.870
want to call it a gab gib


00:15:32.880 --> 00:15:35.030
yes all right if you'd like to read that


00:15:35.040 --> 00:15:36.790
story it's all over the web but uh


00:15:36.800 --> 00:15:38.150
there's a great article at the


00:15:38.160 --> 00:15:40.790
conversation website this is Space Nuts


00:15:40.800 --> 00:15:43.509
andrew Dunley here Heidi Campo there and


00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:48.310
Fred somewhere else


00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:54.310
3 2 1 Space Nuts uh okay uh our next


00:15:54.320 --> 00:15:57.749
story uh is um getting a bit closer to


00:15:57.759 --> 00:15:59.350
home and this is one we've talked about


00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:02.310
many times the Square Kilometer Array


00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:04.150
that wonderful device that they're


00:16:04.160 --> 00:16:06.910
building out in the Never of Western


00:16:06.920 --> 00:16:10.710
Australia uh and even though it's not


00:16:10.720 --> 00:16:12.150
finished yet and they're going to


00:16:12.160 --> 00:16:15.829
probably not complete it until 2030


00:16:15.839 --> 00:16:18.389
uh the exciting news is that they've um


00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:20.710
they've taken their first image and it


00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:24.670
was a selfie no it


00:16:24.680 --> 00:16:28.230
wasn't uh yeah this is a great story


00:16:28.240 --> 00:16:30.949
it's um the department of industry


00:16:30.959 --> 00:16:33.269
science and resources uh who until


00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:36.710
recently was my employer um is the


00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:38.949
basically the the federal agency that


00:16:38.959 --> 00:16:40.550
looks after the square kilometer array


00:16:40.560 --> 00:16:42.230
so this is a story very close to my


00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:45.670
heart uh and I you know I'd love to


00:16:45.680 --> 00:16:48.230
congratulate all my colleagues in that


00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:49.670
department who have been working on this


00:16:49.680 --> 00:16:51.189
and of course the people in the square


00:16:51.199 --> 00:16:54.230
kilometer array observatory and the CSRO


00:16:54.240 --> 00:16:56.749
Commonwealth Science Industrial Research


00:16:56.759 --> 00:16:58.790
Organization Australia's National


00:16:58.800 --> 00:17:00.870
Science Agency all of those people too


00:17:00.880 --> 00:17:03.670
because this is a great step forward um


00:17:03.680 --> 00:17:05.029
I I can't remember whether I've


00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:06.789
mentioned this to you before Andrew but


00:17:06.799 --> 00:17:09.909
um I played a small part in this um


00:17:09.919 --> 00:17:13.909
because back in I think it was 2018 18 I


00:17:13.919 --> 00:17:16.150
was part of a small group that fronted


00:17:16.160 --> 00:17:18.710
up to a parliamentary committee


00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:20.549
something called Jcott the joint


00:17:20.559 --> 00:17:23.350
standing coordinating bill on treaties


00:17:23.360 --> 00:17:26.309
and it was to to to persuade the


00:17:26.319 --> 00:17:28.470
government of Australia that signing a


00:17:28.480 --> 00:17:31.510
treaty uh with the international square


00:17:31.520 --> 00:17:33.830
kilometer array was a good thing and


00:17:33.840 --> 00:17:36.310
they asked the astronomer at large what


00:17:36.320 --> 00:17:39.830
his view was and I told them they had my


00:17:39.840 --> 00:17:42.070
personal guarantee that this telescope


00:17:42.080 --> 00:17:43.990
will produce Nobel prizes that's right


00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:46.710
he did too so um I've got a vested


00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:49.190
interest in this thing working even


00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:51.909
though it does have a 50-year lifetime


00:17:51.919 --> 00:17:54.310
uh and I don't probably from now you


00:17:54.320 --> 00:17:57.750
never know could be


00:17:57.760 --> 00:18:00.630
um but the the thing that um really


00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:02.789
tickled me was that it went into Hansard


00:18:02.799 --> 00:18:05.870
the parliamentary record so that is my


00:18:05.880 --> 00:18:08.549
contribution which is vanishingly small


00:18:08.559 --> 00:18:10.230
compared with what everybody else has


00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:13.909
done so where is it the telescope is at


00:18:13.919 --> 00:18:16.470
the CSRO Merches and Radio Astronomy


00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:19.270
Observatory in Yarimmania Ilgari Bundura


00:18:19.280 --> 00:18:22.870
and that uh Wajgery name is uh something


00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:25.430
that translates as me sharing sky and


00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:28.549
stars uh the Wadger Yamachi people are


00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:31.110
the traditional owners of the land on


00:18:31.120 --> 00:18:34.070
which the telescope uh is and so the the


00:18:34.080 --> 00:18:36.310
site has an Aboriginal name a watery


00:18:36.320 --> 00:18:40.470
name which is lovely uh it um is


00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:43.750
something like 350 kilometers


00:18:43.760 --> 00:18:46.630
norththeast of Geraldton which is on the


00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:49.029
northern coast of Western Australia it's


00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:51.830
in a region that is perhaps one of the


00:18:51.840 --> 00:18:55.190
most radio quiet regions on the land


00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:58.230
surface of the world um because there's


00:18:58.240 --> 00:18:59.710
no external


00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:03.510
interference from terrestrial sources uh


00:19:03.520 --> 00:19:05.350
and so that's why it's there it's


00:19:05.360 --> 00:19:08.230
because it's such a radio quiet region


00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:12.070
um I have had quite a lot to do with


00:19:12.080 --> 00:19:13.510
trying to keep it that way though


00:19:13.520 --> 00:19:15.510
because of course one of the things that


00:19:15.520 --> 00:19:18.590
interferes with the radio quietness are


00:19:18.600 --> 00:19:21.909
satellite mega constellations and um


00:19:21.919 --> 00:19:23.350
that's one of the things that has


00:19:23.360 --> 00:19:25.830
occupied my time over the last few years


00:19:25.840 --> 00:19:30.390
to to be concerned about them and um


00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:32.470
work with collaborators on how we can


00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:34.950
mitigate that that risk anyway that's a


00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:37.750
different story uh the bottom line is uh


00:19:37.760 --> 00:19:40.870
this telescope is the low frequency arm


00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:43.029
of the square kilometer array


00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:44.870
observatory the mid-frequency arm is in


00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:48.630
South Africa uh which will have 197


00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:51.350
dishes very like the parks dish that


00:19:51.360 --> 00:19:52.630
we're all familiar with here in


00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:55.590
Australia um a standard radio dish


00:19:55.600 --> 00:19:58.549
however the low frequency telescope uh


00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:02.710
in Western Australia consists of a whole


00:20:02.720 --> 00:20:05.590
lot of metal Christmas trees yeah uh


00:20:05.600 --> 00:20:11.630
about 2 m high uh there are going to be


00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:15.990
131,072 of these Christmas trees uh but


00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:18.789
there has been a start made and we now


00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:23.430
have working 1,024 of them and that


00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:26.789
thousand or so of the antennas is what


00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:29.750
has generated this first image that was


00:20:29.760 --> 00:20:32.549
released last week uh and and it is a


00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:35.669
major triumph uh just to to give a one


00:20:35.679 --> 00:20:38.630
little insight into the um complexity of


00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:40.909
this telescope for for both you and


00:20:40.919 --> 00:20:45.110
Heidi um it's when it's finished uh its


00:20:45.120 --> 00:20:48.070
data capacity will be more than today's


00:20:48.080 --> 00:20:53.270
internet um so it's a it's a lot of data


00:20:53.280 --> 00:20:56.630
it's an incredibly complex uh system


00:20:56.640 --> 00:20:58.630
when the telescope was planned there


00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:00.390
weren't any computers in the world that


00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:02.950
were fast enough to to actually you know


00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:04.950
make it work and we've moved along from


00:21:04.960 --> 00:21:06.950
that as we can see because the first


00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:08.630
thousand antennas are actually doing


00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:12.470
their thing uh so an extraordinary um


00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:14.310
you know an extraordinary instrument


00:21:14.320 --> 00:21:16.710
with I think a very bright future a


00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:19.669
radio bright future and uh and the first


00:21:19.679 --> 00:21:22.950
big step in putting it on the map as an


00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:24.870
astronomical instrument what did it look


00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:28.710
at yes 25 that's what that's what I read


00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:31.990
your mind i beg you indeed you did yeah


00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:35.110
25 square degrees of the sky in the


00:21:35.120 --> 00:21:37.590
southern constellation of Sculptor uh


00:21:37.600 --> 00:21:40.470
and basically looked at radio galaxies


00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:43.990
in that 25 square degrees it it um


00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:46.470
detected I think 84 of them these are


00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:49.350
all galaxies that have been known from


00:21:49.360 --> 00:21:52.149
other explorations and of course the


00:21:52.159 --> 00:21:53.909
telescope is nowhere near its final


00:21:53.919 --> 00:21:55.110
sensitivity yet it's going to be


00:21:55.120 --> 00:21:56.950
hundreds of times more sensitive when


00:21:56.960 --> 00:21:59.669
when it gets the full array but um


00:21:59.679 --> 00:22:02.390
that's a a great start and everybody's


00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:04.710
delighted with the image that was that


00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:06.789
was released uh especially the


00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:08.390
scientists working at the square


00:22:08.400 --> 00:22:11.590
kilometer array uh when the thing is


00:22:11.600 --> 00:22:14.070
finished that same bit of sky it will


00:22:14.080 --> 00:22:16.870
reveal something like 600,000 galaxies


00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:20.310
rather than 84 and those some of those


00:22:20.320 --> 00:22:22.390
galaxies will probably be the first


00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:24.149
galaxies forming in the universe because


00:22:24.159 --> 00:22:26.710
you'll be looking back so far in time


00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:28.950
we'll see the end of the dark ages when


00:22:28.960 --> 00:22:31.990
nothing was shining in the first few


00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:34.230
hundred million years of the universe so


00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:36.070
it's going to look back a long way it's


00:22:36.080 --> 00:22:37.909
still hard to get your head around the


00:22:37.919 --> 00:22:40.310
fact that we we'll be able to see what


00:22:40.320 --> 00:22:42.549
was there before i know I know we we're


00:22:42.559 --> 00:22:45.669
moving forward in time constantly but um


00:22:45.679 --> 00:22:48.230
there's just still all this evidence and


00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:51.590
information and and um historical data


00:22:51.600 --> 00:22:54.310
if you like that that gives us that kind


00:22:54.320 --> 00:22:56.789
of insight i think that's just that's


00:22:56.799 --> 00:22:58.470
amazing i tried to explain it to my


00:22:58.480 --> 00:23:00.310
grandson and he just went back to


00:23:00.320 --> 00:23:03.430
Pokémon but um it was


00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:05.510
just tell him tell him that he's seeing


00:23:05.520 --> 00:23:07.270
he's seeing Pokémon as it was a


00:23:07.280 --> 00:23:10.310
billionth of a second ago well yeah I


00:23:10.320 --> 00:23:11.510
don't think he I don't think he'd get


00:23:11.520 --> 00:23:14.870
that either but uh it it's Yeah it's


00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:17.830
quite extraordinary and uh and this um


00:23:17.840 --> 00:23:19.830
thing and the and the one in South


00:23:19.840 --> 00:23:22.470
Africa that I think it's called Mircat


00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:25.669
mat's the the initial version mat it'll


00:23:25.679 --> 00:23:29.029
be a kind of mega mircat yes yes uh it


00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:32.549
it promises to open um big doors just


00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:35.430
like the James Web Space Telescope and


00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:37.430
the Vera Rubin telescope and all those


00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:39.510
new things coming online these next 20


00:23:39.520 --> 00:23:41.029
30 years are going to be extremely


00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:43.830
exciting that's absolutely right um what


00:23:43.840 --> 00:23:45.470
just one other thing you know the the


00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:48.470
the SKA will probe the whole history of


00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:51.430
the universe basically including today's


00:23:51.440 --> 00:23:54.070
universe so um my radio astronomy


00:23:54.080 --> 00:23:56.070
colleagues tell me that the sensitivity


00:23:56.080 --> 00:23:58.310
of the final telescope will be enough


00:23:58.320 --> 00:24:00.390
that it will be able to detect an


00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:03.510
airport radar at 50 light years away how


00:24:03.520 --> 00:24:06.710
how awesome so if there are people


00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:09.430
leaking radio waves into space from the


00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:11.350
stars of other planets within 50 light


00:24:11.360 --> 00:24:13.590
years we're going to know about it wow


00:24:13.600 --> 00:24:16.470
wow and they probably set up their own


00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:19.510
square kilometer array they'll find us


00:24:19.520 --> 00:24:21.590
too maybe i don't know are there any


00:24:21.600 --> 00:24:24.390
concerns with more and more satellites


00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:26.149
getting launched and radio waves in the


00:24:26.159 --> 00:24:29.110
atmosphere of anything disrupting these


00:24:29.120 --> 00:24:32.310
highly sensitive and advanced tools


00:24:32.320 --> 00:24:35.029
absolutely right Heidi they are and


00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:36.789
those concerns are what I mentioned a


00:24:36.799 --> 00:24:39.990
minute ago it's um uh that there's um a


00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:42.070
lot of activity in the astronomical


00:24:42.080 --> 00:24:46.390
world in how you can mitigate the effect


00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:49.630
of these uh satellite


00:24:49.640 --> 00:24:51.549
constellations


00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:56.070
we it's it's possible uh so let just


00:24:56.080 --> 00:24:57.510
just sidest stepping to this for a


00:24:57.520 --> 00:25:00.110
minute at the moment there are just over


00:25:00.120 --> 00:25:03.110
11,000 operational satellites in orbit


00:25:03.120 --> 00:25:07.190
of which uh 7,000 are Starlink in low


00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:10.630
Earth orbit uh Starlink's got a mandate


00:25:10.640 --> 00:25:14.230
to launch up to 42,000 there are many


00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:16.549
many more so it's likely that by the end


00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:18.070
of the decade there'll be 100,000


00:25:18.080 --> 00:25:20.310
spacecraft in orbit with 50,000 above


00:25:20.320 --> 00:25:22.470
the horizon at any one time and they're


00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:26.070
all beaming down radio signals now um


00:25:26.080 --> 00:25:28.310
Starling SpaceX actually is one of the


00:25:28.320 --> 00:25:30.070
good players in this because they turn


00:25:30.080 --> 00:25:33.029
their their satellites off when they're


00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:35.430
over radio astronomy observatories they


00:25:35.440 --> 00:25:38.470
switch off the beams however uh there


00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:40.390
are other issues because the electronics


00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:42.870
of the spacecraft themselves are quite


00:25:42.880 --> 00:25:45.350
noisy at the level that these sensitive


00:25:45.360 --> 00:25:47.830
radio telescopes can detect so there is


00:25:47.840 --> 00:25:49.909
a huge amount of work going on as to how


00:25:49.919 --> 00:25:52.549
you can how you can rectify this you


00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:53.990
can't get rid of them that they're a


00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:55.909
fact of life uh they're going to be more


00:25:55.919 --> 00:25:57.990
of them they actually do good stuff


00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:00.230
because they provide high-speed internet


00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:03.750
um you know on a on a global scale um


00:26:03.760 --> 00:26:07.110
but it's changing astronomy both visible


00:26:07.120 --> 00:26:10.070
light astronomy and radio astronomy um


00:26:10.080 --> 00:26:11.669
astronomers are now having to deal with


00:26:11.679 --> 00:26:14.390
this excuse me this um interference from


00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:16.710
from satellites so a lot of work going


00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:18.789
on on that and um I talk about it


00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:21.190
incessantly so I'll shut up yeah yeah


00:26:21.200 --> 00:26:23.029
i've heard even astrophotographers are


00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:25.110
having harder time getting long exposure


00:26:25.120 --> 00:26:27.990
shots that's correct yeah yes yeah uh


00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:30.549
and and of course um Heidi you probably


00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:31.909
have already figured out what I figured


00:26:31.919 --> 00:26:34.230
out that this first image of the SKA is


00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:36.149
actually just the satellite array of


00:26:36.159 --> 00:26:38.549
Starlink and it's not actually galaxies


00:26:38.559 --> 00:26:41.110
at all but yeah oh well that's No I'm


00:26:41.120 --> 00:26:44.070
kidding sorry Elon as a lot of people


00:26:44.080 --> 00:26:46.630
would be very upset about that thought


00:26:46.640 --> 00:26:48.149
but fortunately none of them listen to


00:26:48.159 --> 00:26:50.390
this so they Yeah that's right yeah once


00:26:50.400 --> 00:26:51.909
they get to know me they'll realize I'm


00:26:51.919 --> 00:26:54.870
just full of it anyway but um of course


00:26:54.880 --> 00:26:56.390
the most exciting thing about all of


00:26:56.400 --> 00:26:58.310
this Fred is that I know where I'm going


00:26:58.320 --> 00:27:00.950
for Christmas in 2030 because you know I


00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:03.510
can't fit 131,000 Christmas trees at my


00:27:03.520 --> 00:27:06.149
place so that's really exciting that's


00:27:06.159 --> 00:27:08.390
going to be fun uh if you'd like to read


00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:10.549
up on that story uh best place to go


00:27:10.559 --> 00:27:13.430
would be the square kilometer array uh


00:27:13.440 --> 00:27:16.390
website the SKA Observatory website easy


00:27:16.400 --> 00:27:18.029
to find


00:27:18.039 --> 00:27:23.430
skao hey we'll get you there


00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:27.669
g and I feel fine space nuts uh now uh


00:27:27.679 --> 00:27:30.390
one final story Fred uh this one you


00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:33.029
know we everybody loves babies uh we


00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:36.470
we've um finally found baby moons uh


00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:39.830
that are forming around baby planets


00:27:39.840 --> 00:27:43.669
um yeah which is a neat segue um to let


00:27:43.679 --> 00:27:46.789
you know how our baby is doing my new


00:27:46.799 --> 00:27:51.190
granddaughter Aggie oh she's now almost


00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:53.190
a month old she's three weeks old she's


00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:55.110
doing very well thank you thank you for


00:27:55.120 --> 00:27:58.430
asking congratulations oh thank you


00:27:58.440 --> 00:28:01.350
Heidi what we talking about again yes uh


00:28:01.360 --> 00:28:05.430
we were talking about baby planets um


00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:09.110
and this is uh some work that has come


00:28:09.120 --> 00:28:11.909
from actually a telescope in the


00:28:11.919 --> 00:28:14.350
southern hemisphere what's happened here


00:28:14.360 --> 00:28:17.350
my my crib sheets disappeared there we


00:28:17.360 --> 00:28:19.669
are


00:28:19.679 --> 00:28:21.269
Fred can lose pieces of paper that


00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:23.510
aren't even real


00:28:23.520 --> 00:28:27.310
so I've just done it this is on the um


00:28:27.320 --> 00:28:30.070
uh work coming from the 6 and a half


00:28:30.080 --> 00:28:32.230
meter or one of the two 6 and a half


00:28:32.240 --> 00:28:34.590
meter Mellan telescopes which are at Las


00:28:34.600 --> 00:28:37.190
Campanis Observatory in Chile a place


00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:41.110
which I visited uh a very nice dark site


00:28:41.120 --> 00:28:45.750
for astronomy uh but these uh scientists


00:28:45.760 --> 00:28:47.190
uh who are principally from the


00:28:47.200 --> 00:28:50.750
University of Arizona uh up there in


00:28:50.760 --> 00:28:56.549
Tucson they have been observing uh with


00:28:56.559 --> 00:28:58.870
something called an extreme adaptive


00:28:58.880 --> 00:29:01.830
optics system so you know we're familiar


00:29:01.840 --> 00:29:03.510
with groundbased telescopes having to


00:29:03.520 --> 00:29:05.269
look through the atmosphere uh and


00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:07.990
that's why we put telescopes in space uh


00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:10.950
because the atmosphere is not there uh


00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:12.950
so uh down here on the earth we've


00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:14.310
always got the turbulent in the


00:29:14.320 --> 00:29:16.070
atmosphere to deal with but this


00:29:16.080 --> 00:29:19.230
technology of adaptive optics is now um


00:29:19.240 --> 00:29:23.269
actually making imagery that is even


00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:26.470
finer detailed than space imagery is and


00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:30.789
so we uh are not really surprised when


00:29:30.799 --> 00:29:33.269
we get results like these from the


00:29:33.279 --> 00:29:36.029
Mellan adaptive optics extreme


00:29:36.039 --> 00:29:39.750
instrument AOX to give it its full name


00:29:39.760 --> 00:29:43.110
uh which shows a protolanetary disc


00:29:43.120 --> 00:29:46.149
around a star which has the glamorous


00:29:46.159 --> 00:29:47.389
name of


00:29:47.399 --> 00:29:52.950
PDS70 uh PDS70 is a star which is young


00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:56.149
uh something like 5 million years old


00:29:56.159 --> 00:29:59.669
that is very young indeed it's a you


00:29:59.679 --> 00:30:04.549
know our our sun is 4.5 billion years


00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:07.190
old so this is a thousand times younger


00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:09.190
um but it has a protolanetary disc


00:30:09.200 --> 00:30:11.830
around it the disc of dust and gaseous


00:30:11.840 --> 00:30:14.470
debris that we that we recognize as


00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:17.789
being the way planets are formed and


00:30:17.799 --> 00:30:21.510
within this disc uh some planets have


00:30:21.520 --> 00:30:23.590
actually been identified they have been


00:30:23.600 --> 00:30:25.909
imaged and that's quite unusual as you


00:30:25.919 --> 00:30:29.110
and I know Andrew u the normal way that


00:30:29.120 --> 00:30:31.750
we investigate uh the planets of other


00:30:31.760 --> 00:30:34.230
stars is by the effect of the planet on


00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:36.389
the star itself which we can which we


00:30:36.399 --> 00:30:39.190
can then observe but this is a direct uh


00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:41.950
image of two planets which are


00:30:41.960 --> 00:30:45.350
PDS70B and PDS70C


00:30:45.360 --> 00:30:48.630
uh and they are sort of going to be that


00:30:48.640 --> 00:30:50.149
they're still growing they're still


00:30:50.159 --> 00:30:51.830
accreting material they're probably


00:30:51.840 --> 00:30:54.870
going to be uh much bigger than Jupiter


00:30:54.880 --> 00:30:57.110
but there is evidence uh from the


00:30:57.120 --> 00:31:00.710
imagery that the planets themselves have


00:31:00.720 --> 00:31:03.110
a protolanetary disc around them in


00:31:03.120 --> 00:31:05.269
other words the planets also have a ring


00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:07.350
of stuff around them which is where we


00:31:07.360 --> 00:31:09.830
think moons form uh we believe our own


00:31:09.840 --> 00:31:12.389
moon formed from a ring of debris caused


00:31:12.399 --> 00:31:15.269
by an impact of an object we call Thea


00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:19.110
the size of Mars back in the day so uh a


00:31:19.120 --> 00:31:21.590
a really nice piece of work suggesting


00:31:21.600 --> 00:31:25.590
that moons of exoplanets are a reality


00:31:25.600 --> 00:31:28.149
uh we can expect to find more of them as


00:31:28.159 --> 00:31:31.430
the technology improves and the big


00:31:31.440 --> 00:31:34.870
gamecher of course will be the European


00:31:34.880 --> 00:31:36.789
Southern Observatory's extremely large


00:31:36.799 --> 00:31:38.549
telescope when it comes on stream in


00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:41.029
2028 which will be able to form direct


00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:43.669
images of these things yeah uh how far


00:31:43.679 --> 00:31:45.830
away is this object it's actually quite


00:31:45.840 --> 00:31:49.269
a way okay so I think 370 light years


00:31:49.279 --> 00:31:51.750
comes to mind i think that is its


00:31:51.760 --> 00:31:54.630
distance uh and that's uh you know


00:31:54.640 --> 00:31:57.269
that's certainly not on our doorstep um


00:31:57.279 --> 00:31:58.669
it's um


00:31:58.679 --> 00:32:01.590
it's in the sun's neighborhood in space


00:32:01.600 --> 00:32:03.990
but it's not among the nearest stars


00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:07.590
yeah but to be able to analyze something


00:32:07.600 --> 00:32:10.149
so far away and and find data that


00:32:10.159 --> 00:32:12.230
suggests look we've got protolanets and


00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:14.470
proto moons happening here that's pretty


00:32:14.480 --> 00:32:17.509
darn amazing i think so too yeah so


00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:19.590
congratulations to colleagues at the


00:32:19.600 --> 00:32:22.430
University of Arizona yeah good for them


00:32:22.440 --> 00:32:25.350
yeah there actually you got friends


00:32:25.360 --> 00:32:27.509
everywhere Fred well in astronomy it's


00:32:27.519 --> 00:32:29.750
such a small world you do might have a


00:32:29.760 --> 00:32:33.590
friend on Mars soon you never know


00:32:33.600 --> 00:32:35.430
somebody Somebody Somebody call me Elon


00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:37.990
do you mean


00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:40.070
Oh dear uh that story available at


00:32:40.080 --> 00:32:42.470
space.com if you want to have a look at


00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:45.590
the um the images their their um


00:32:45.600 --> 00:32:47.509
artistic representations but it gives


00:32:47.519 --> 00:32:49.190
you a pretty good idea of what they've


00:32:49.200 --> 00:32:51.750
um what they've found uh and that brings


00:32:51.760 --> 00:32:54.549
us to the end anything to add Heidi to


00:32:54.559 --> 00:32:55.990
finish off you know this has been a


00:32:56.000 --> 00:32:57.830
learning process for you i'm sure you're


00:32:57.840 --> 00:32:59.590
going "What the heck have I got myself


00:32:59.600 --> 00:33:03.350
into?" No I'm just I'm thinking about so


00:33:03.360 --> 00:33:05.509
many things and I have questions lining


00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:07.990
up probably for future episodes good


00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:11.029
good that's what we want um excellent


00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:12.630
all right well thanks for sitting in and


00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:15.110
uh we will catch you on the next episode


00:33:15.120 --> 00:33:16.549
because that's a completely different


00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:19.110
kettle of fish our fish being listeners


00:33:19.120 --> 00:33:22.710
and uh Fred thank you to you as always


00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:26.230
i don't know what that meant either


00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:27.909
you're welcome Andrew you You're very


00:33:27.919 --> 00:33:31.669
welcome as always oh gosh um time to go


00:33:31.679 --> 00:33:33.509
and thanks to Hugh in the studio who


00:33:33.519 --> 00:33:34.789
didn't turn up today because he knew


00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:37.350
what he was getting himself into and uh


00:33:37.360 --> 00:33:39.590
he didn't warn Heidi about it at all and


00:33:39.600 --> 00:33:41.269
from me Andrew Dunley thanks for your


00:33:41.279 --> 00:33:43.269
company see you on the next episode of


00:33:43.279 --> 00:33:46.470
Space Nuts bye-bye space Nuts you'll be


00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:50.230
listening to the Space Nuts podcast


00:33:50.240 --> 00:33:53.269
available at Apple Podcasts Spotify


00:33:53.279 --> 00:33:55.909
iHeart Radio or your favorite podcast


00:33:55.919 --> 00:33:58.750
player you can also stream on demand at


00:33:58.760 --> 00:34:01.190
byes.com this has been another quality


00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:05.720
podcast production from byes.com