Cosmic Q&A: From Redshift to the Moon’s Hidden Temperatures | Space Nuts: Astronomy Insights &...

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Hello again. Thank you for joining us on


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a Q&A edition of Space Nuts. This is


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where the audience asks us questions. We


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scratch our heads and it's all over in


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about a minute. Um but uh if we are to


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answer questions, we may well uh um


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answer the question as to how they're


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going to save the Swiss uh the Swift


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observatory, which as you might recall


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in a previous episode was under threat


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of um you know coming back into the


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Earth's atmosphere and being lost


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forever. Well, uh, James, who asked a


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question, is going to be in for a bit of


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a shock on that one. Uh, also a followup


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on red shift. We're going to look at


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temperatures of the moon and a white


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hole black hole merger. What would be


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the effect? Fred knows. We'll ask him on


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this edition of Space Nuts.


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>> 15 seconds. Guidance is internal. 10 9


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Ignition sequence start.


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>> Space Nuts. 5 4 3 2


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>> 1 2 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1


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>> Space Notes


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>> Astronauts reported feels good.


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>> And joining us to unr all of those


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rattling questions is Professor Fred


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Watson, astronomer at large. Hello,


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Fred.


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>> Hello, Andrew. Fancy.


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>> Long time long time no see.


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>> Yes. Um I a question without notice. Do


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you always record on the same day and


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time? No. No, we don't. No, it's uh it's


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never that easy.


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That was an easy one to answer.


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>> Is that from our live uh audience?


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>> Yes, that's from Moose. Good day, Moose.


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>> Yeah, hi.


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>> But uh No, no, we don't. Um it it all


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comes down to who's available on


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whatever given day and uh today was the


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day. But uh no, it's it's it it sort of


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jumps around. Sometimes we have to


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double up. In fact, um this is the first


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time we've actually recorded together


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for over a month


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>> because Fred was traveling and we we had


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to double up for um quite a few weeks to


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get ahead and um we didn't quite make it


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which is why Jonty covered things for


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the last couple of weeks. But uh we we


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generally try to do it in the morning so


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that we can catch the evening viewers in


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the United States which um works out


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pretty well for most. Then most of the


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people in this part of the world are at


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work. So


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>> it's lose lose basically. You can't


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cater for the entire world at one given


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moment. But that's that's that's the way


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it goes. If we could sort of just have


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one time zone with daylight everywhere


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all the time, it would make it easier.


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But um yeah, they're still working on


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that. And I'm not joking, they are still


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working on that. They're trying to put


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up these big mirrors and I don't know


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what else. It's weird.


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>> Um do you want to tackle some questions,


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Fred? Yes, please. Thank you. Um,


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actually, we do have a live question


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straight up, so we'll we'll might jump


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straight at that one. What are your


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thoughts on the red dots as seen by the


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James Webb telescope? Asks good.


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Interestingly, they're in the news at


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the moment because there there was a


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story I only read just before we we came


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on live to suggest that they think


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they're about to witness a red dot


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merger.


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>> Okay.


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>> Interestingly,


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>> yeah. Um so they are being well studied


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uh and one of them


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in particular


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uh which has a name it's I think it's


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called BH star one BH star is an


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abbreviation for black hole star one uh


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and um it this is a little red dot that


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unlike many of the other ones is in a


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relatively empty environment. So uh


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let's just recap what are little red


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dots there. What the the penetrating


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power of the James Web telescope has


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revealed for the first time uh in the


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early universe at a time when the


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universe was only you know few hundred


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million years old. We see these objects


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which have now got the name of little


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red dots. Um they're compact uh and they


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are quite bright in terms of the amount


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of energy that they uh emit. And I think


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BH star one, if I remember rightly, it's


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100 billion times brighter than it


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should be.


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>> Whoa.


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>> Uh, and but that's leading to


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the suggestion that what we're seeing


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here


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is a star which uh is basically a cloud


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of gas with a super massive black hole


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at its center. So if you think about our


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knowledge of galaxies, most of which


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seem to have super massive black holes


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at their center. They're made of stars.


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Uh that star formation process takes


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place over billions of years. Um and we


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used to think that it took a long time


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for these black holes to become super


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massive by you know them being basically


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gobbling up each other uh gobbling up


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material so that they became super


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massive. But we see super massive black


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holes now. so early in the universe and


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it looks as though BH star 1 has got one


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at its center. I think it's 50,000 or


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thereabouts times the mass of the sun. I


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can't remember the details. Um I've had


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an operation since I read all that. Uh


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the um the the so the um uh the evidence


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seems to be that we are seeing a new


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class of object uh essentially a galaxy


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something not the size of a galaxy


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because their dimensions are kind of


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solar system size. They're much bigger


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than the solar system, but they're


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clouds of gas. And we think that they


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are energized by the accretion disc, the


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way material is swirling around the


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black hole at their center. And that's


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raising temperatures in the middle to


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very high degrees. And so you get very


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high levels of energy emission, which is


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why they're said to be 100 billion times


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brighter than they should be. So, it


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looks as though we're on the track of


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identifying these little red dots as


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something quite new and kind of


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unexpected. I'm sure they were predicted


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that we'd find uh stars made basically


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of nothing but gas in a black hole uh


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rather than, you know, other stars. Uh


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and um that seems to be what they are.


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So,


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>> yeah,


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>> watch for space though. Um you know,


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>> yes, Moose. Thanks.


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>> No, it wasn't moose. It was good. Sorry.


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Um but thanks for the question. Uh we


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got an audio question now. This is from


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James.


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>> Hi.


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>> This is James in higham England. So as


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of the 6th of July, there's a spacecraft


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called link which will boost the


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decaying orbit of the Swift satellite.


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What will it do to boost the orbit? And


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what even does that mean to boost an


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orbit? Um, I guess I assume that pushing


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it from underneath might not be the


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answer. So, look forward to hearing how


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it might actually do that. Thanks,


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James.


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>> Thank you, James. Hope all is well in I


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think you said how in the UK.


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>> Hi, Wickham.




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>> All right.


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>> Okay. Could have been either.


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>> Um, we've got some bad news for you,


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James, I'm afraid. Haven't we Fred?


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>> Yeah. So it it's uh it is it's really


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sad because um this project has been a


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bit of a poster child for NASA because


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normally their projects take decades to


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come into fruition. But they've they


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tasked a company uh something like a


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with a year's notice or something uh to


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uh develop a spacecraft uh and actually


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um


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basically work out how you could rescue


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the Swift spacecraft. So the story is


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Swift is uh an an elderly spacecraft


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launched in 2004 to study gammaray


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bursts but it's been so successful uh


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that there was a real I guess desire to


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uh to save it because its orbit is


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decaying and as of later this year we


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expect it its orbit will actually get so


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much atmospheric drag that it will decay


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very quickly and the spacecraft the


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Swift spacecraft craft will burn up in


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the atmosphere. So, um the link mission


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uh was a joint uh project between NASA


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and a company called Catalyst Catalyst


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Space. Uh and indeed, the link


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spacecraft was launched on July the 3 um


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uh with every intention of rendevuing


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with the Swift spacecraft and and


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lifting its orbit. And I'll get on to


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that in a minute because that's


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basically uh James's question. Uh but


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what happened was um they had an


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attitude control issue. Uh and so very


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quickly the


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probably within weeks uh link the


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spacecraft that was going to save just


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started tumbling out of control. Um and


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we got an announcement uh very soon


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after that that the spacecraft would not


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capture or boost the Swift satellites


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altitude as planned.


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Um, I think they're still attempting to


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rendevu with Swift. In other words, to


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bring the link spacecraft close to Swift


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just to check that all their


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capabilities in terms of rendevous uh


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are working, but because of this out of


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control tumbling um they're not going to


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be able to do anything uh on that. Um so


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um it's turning into a mission that it's


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a face saving mission in a way. Uh there


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is a nice piece on uh our old friend


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Universe Today. Uh they've got a nice


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piece on it called NASA announces next


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steps for Swift rescue mission and it


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has a lot of quotes from uh people like


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uh the NASA administrator Jared Isaacman


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uh and and other people involved. uh


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Catalyst Space have released a statement


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um all of which is you know basically


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saying that they they they'd hope for


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more science from Swift um I think this


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is a comment from Shan Domagel Goldman


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who's director of astrophysics at NASA


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who says we were all hoping for more


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science from Swift but we knew the


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takeaways from this mission would be


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worthwhile either way we've gained so


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much through the series of


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accomplishments up to this point


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building testing and operating ing this


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mission has already strengthened


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America's space industry pipeline


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advancing in space servicing


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capabilities in completely new ways and


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I think that's a reflection of the fact


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that this was all done in double quick


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time uh even though it's in the end not


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succeeded um it has been a mission from


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which people have learned a lot so just


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going back to James' question how do you


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boost uh the orbit or increase the orbit


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of a spacecraft


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What you have to do is you have to


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increase its velocity. And so um what I


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think the link spacecraft would have


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done would have been and I think it had


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three arms that could grapple onto Swift


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onto hard points on Swift's sort of


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fuselage what they call the bus the main


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part of the satellite. So I think it was


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three that it would grab hold of and


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then you use the link uh thrusters to


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apply a a velocity or an acceleration


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essentially in the direction of travel.


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Uh because remember all satellites are


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essentially traveling horizontally.


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They're they're all moving in orbits


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that are parallel to the earth.


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>> Of course it's the fact that the earth's


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a sphere that means the orbit is a


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circle. Um so what you do is you boost


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its velocity and what that does is it


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raises what we call the apogee. So it


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elongates the ellipse that the


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spacecraft is that the spacecraft orbit


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is in. Um, so you you boost its velocity


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and you get an extended ellipse and the


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near part of the ellipse, what we call


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perigee, the part closest to the earth,


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it's sort of where you started from,


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that's still at the same height, but


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you've given the far part um the apogee


00:12:36.800 --> 00:12:39.910
a much higher radius. And then what you


00:12:39.920 --> 00:12:44.790
do is uh at the apogee, you boost it


00:12:44.800 --> 00:12:46.949
again. You boost the velocity again. And


00:12:46.959 --> 00:12:49.430
that lifts the perigee. that actually


00:12:49.440 --> 00:12:51.030
lifts the near point. So, it's a


00:12:51.040 --> 00:12:53.590
two-step process. Uh, but it's all about


00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:55.110
just increasing the velocity of the


00:12:55.120 --> 00:12:57.670
spacecraft and that automatically lifts


00:12:57.680 --> 00:12:59.750
the orbit uh in a way that I've


00:12:59.760 --> 00:13:01.030
described.


00:13:01.040 --> 00:13:03.509
>> That's how it works in theory, James. It


00:13:03.519 --> 00:13:05.190
uh unfortunately didn't happen. The


00:13:05.200 --> 00:13:07.750
rescue missions failed, but uh the good


00:13:07.760 --> 00:13:10.470
news is Swift will continue to operate.


00:13:10.480 --> 00:13:12.790
Uh they've restarted um its


00:13:12.800 --> 00:13:15.829
observations. Uh but it is in a very


00:13:15.839 --> 00:13:19.910
rapid uh decaying orbit and they expect


00:13:19.920 --> 00:13:24.470
re-entry late uh well not so long now.


00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:27.110
Late this year late we're we're entering


00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:29.269
late this year already. So


00:13:29.279 --> 00:13:31.670
>> that's right. Yeah.


00:13:31.680 --> 00:13:33.509
>> Only got a couple of months to live


00:13:33.519 --> 00:13:35.190
unfortunately. They couldn't save it.


00:13:35.200 --> 00:13:40.310
But um yeah that it w it I I guess they


00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:42.949
were very hopeful but um it was a pretty


00:13:42.959 --> 00:13:45.590
last minute thing to try and do and um


00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:49.269
it just didn't work out unfortunately.


00:13:49.279 --> 00:13:51.990
Um got a message from Europe as well.


00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:53.670
Someone's up at 4:00 a.m. and I asked


00:13:53.680 --> 00:13:55.670
why and he said my little toddler woke


00:13:55.680 --> 00:13:59.430
me up. They do that. They do that. But


00:13:59.440 --> 00:14:02.230
um anyway, glad you found us. Uh thank


00:14:02.240 --> 00:14:04.230
you James for the question. Uh we'll


00:14:04.240 --> 00:14:05.829
move straight onto our next question


00:14:05.839 --> 00:14:08.790
from Dale who's in New Zealand. Uh he's


00:14:08.800 --> 00:14:10.629
referring to a question that came from


00:14:10.639 --> 00:14:12.790
Roger the the trucker which uh I think


00:14:12.800 --> 00:14:15.910
we covered a few weeks ago. Um who asked


00:14:15.920 --> 00:14:18.470
is distant light redshifted? What


00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:21.509
happens to the lost energy? And Dale


00:14:21.519 --> 00:14:24.150
says surely no energy is lost. Isn't it


00:14:24.160 --> 00:14:27.430
just stretched?


00:14:27.440 --> 00:14:30.069
Yes, that's right. So, excuse me. But


00:14:30.079 --> 00:14:32.710
but longer wavelength, which is what you


00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:38.069
stretch it into, um means uh means that


00:14:38.079 --> 00:14:41.269
the energy that's carried is less.


00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:45.030
Uh and it's I guess it it's like you


00:14:45.040 --> 00:14:47.590
know the partic the the particle wave


00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:49.990
dual duality, the fact that we can think


00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:51.829
of light as both a particle and as a


00:14:51.839 --> 00:14:53.990
wave. You can think of it as a particle


00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:56.550
with certain energy, a photon. Uh or you


00:14:56.560 --> 00:14:58.150
can think of it as a wave with a certain


00:14:58.160 --> 00:14:59.430
wavelength. And the longer the


00:14:59.440 --> 00:15:01.829
wavelength, the lower the energy. So we


00:15:01.839 --> 00:15:03.910
talk about high energy astrophysics as


00:15:03.920 --> 00:15:05.509
being things that where we use gamma


00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:10.949
rays and x-rays to to probe space. So um


00:15:10.959 --> 00:15:13.189
I I do remember we looked at this


00:15:13.199 --> 00:15:15.750
question and got a number of different


00:15:15.760 --> 00:15:19.670
answers. um most of which were don't


00:15:19.680 --> 00:15:22.870
worry about it,


00:15:22.880 --> 00:15:25.350
which is kind of uh kind of what our


00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:28.470
listener is is saying, don't worry about


00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:32.389
it. It'll be all right. Um it, you know,


00:15:32.399 --> 00:15:34.230
there is a suggestion that some of that


00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:37.670
energy uh effectively goes into raising


00:15:37.680 --> 00:15:39.030
the background temperature of the


00:15:39.040 --> 00:15:41.990
universe by a tiny gazillionth of a


00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:44.870
degree. Uh but there's another point of


00:15:44.880 --> 00:15:46.790
view. It's interesting. It's worth, you


00:15:46.800 --> 00:15:48.790
know, having a look and uh going down


00:15:48.800 --> 00:15:50.790
the rabbit hole. I haven't had time to


00:15:50.800 --> 00:15:54.470
do that again. Um but um uh yeah, go


00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:55.910
down the rabbit hole and and have a look


00:15:55.920 --> 00:15:57.430
at what people think about the energy


00:15:57.440 --> 00:16:01.030
loss uh from um the red shift. Energy is


00:16:01.040 --> 00:16:03.189
lost. It goes somewhere. Uh because the


00:16:03.199 --> 00:16:06.470
universe is a closed system. My


00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:08.310
understanding as was always that it


00:16:08.320 --> 00:16:09.990
basically heats the cosmic microwave


00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:12.470
background very very slightly. That


00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:14.629
makes sense. Yes. Hope that answers your


00:16:14.639 --> 00:16:16.230
question, Dale. Thanks for sending it in


00:16:16.240 --> 00:16:18.710
and hope all is well in New Zealand.


00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:20.870
This is Space Nuts. Andrew Dunley here


00:16:20.880 --> 00:16:23.110
on a Q&A edition with Professor Fred


00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:26.310
Watson.


00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:28.069
>> Okay, we've had a problem here.


00:16:28.079 --> 00:16:30.069
>> This is Houston. Say again, please.


00:16:30.079 --> 00:16:31.350
>> Houston, we've had a problem. We've had


00:16:31.360 --> 00:16:34.230
a main


00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:35.910
standby. We're looking at it.


00:16:35.920 --> 00:16:38.550
>> Space. I'm going to let a cat out of a


00:16:38.560 --> 00:16:41.910
bag here, Fred, in my um new trilogy


00:16:41.920 --> 00:16:43.829
that it's just been released and I think


00:16:43.839 --> 00:16:45.430
I've sold one copy.


00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:47.189
>> Um


00:16:47.199 --> 00:16:49.829
the main Bus undervolt problem on Apollo


00:16:49.839 --> 00:16:50.870
13.


00:16:50.880 --> 00:16:51.269
>> All right.


00:16:51.279 --> 00:16:53.829
>> I I used that in I used that in one of


00:16:53.839 --> 00:16:54.790
the books


00:16:54.800 --> 00:16:56.470
>> just for fun.


00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:57.829
>> Love it.


00:16:57.839 --> 00:16:58.629
>> Yeah.


00:16:58.639 --> 00:17:01.030
>> It's nice to put these little little


00:17:01.040 --> 00:17:02.550
snippets in. And I've done that in a few


00:17:02.560 --> 00:17:04.949
of my books that put things in it that


00:17:04.959 --> 00:17:06.710
probably I'm the only person would know


00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:08.710
that I I was alluding to something else.


00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:11.029
>> I I do it a lot. I think I've done it a


00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:13.189
few times in this series just for fun.


00:17:13.199 --> 00:17:14.870
And the people who know will know. The


00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:16.630
people who don't will just keep reading


00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:18.470
and it'll just be part of the story. So


00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:19.510
>> that's right.


00:17:19.520 --> 00:17:21.750
>> Yeah. Um let's go to our next question


00:17:21.760 --> 00:17:23.829
from one of our regular contributors.


00:17:23.839 --> 00:17:25.510
Here is Fenton.


00:17:25.520 --> 00:17:29.430
>> Hello Fred and Andrew. This is Fenton


00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:31.669
calling you from Minnesota.


00:17:31.679 --> 00:17:34.310
Thank you for your podcast. I never miss


00:17:34.320 --> 00:17:37.029
an episode for it. I have a question for


00:17:37.039 --> 00:17:41.029
you about the temperature on the moon.


00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:43.350
Now, it's well known that the


00:17:43.360 --> 00:17:46.230
temperature on the surface swings


00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:49.750
greatly with the orbit of the moon. But


00:17:49.760 --> 00:17:52.390
what about underneath the moon that is


00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:56.310
below its surface? How constant is it?


00:17:56.320 --> 00:17:58.870
Does it also swing around?


00:17:58.880 --> 00:18:01.029
Doesn't matter how deep you go


00:18:01.039 --> 00:18:05.270
underneath the moon. This has of course


00:18:05.280 --> 00:18:07.990
relevance to putting people on the moon


00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:12.390
and living on them. Thank you very much


00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:14.789
for the question. Bye now.


00:18:14.799 --> 00:18:16.630
>> Thank you Fenton. He brings up a really


00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:19.110
good point. We are going to have people


00:18:19.120 --> 00:18:21.110
spending time on the moon in the not too


00:18:21.120 --> 00:18:23.190
distant future. And some of them will,


00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:24.470
you know, they're not just going to go


00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:27.029
up and kick the sand and then come home


00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:28.310
again like you do when you go to the


00:18:28.320 --> 00:18:30.710
beach. They'll be up there for a decent


00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:33.350
period of time. Um, I'd say rotating


00:18:33.360 --> 00:18:36.710
rosters of of weeks or whatever. Uh, how


00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:37.830
are they going to deal with these


00:18:37.840 --> 00:18:40.070
temperatures? Because, as far as I


00:18:40.080 --> 00:18:41.830
recall,


00:18:41.840 --> 00:18:43.750
um, the moon is one of the coldest


00:18:43.760 --> 00:18:47.190
places in the solar system, is it not?


00:18:47.200 --> 00:18:49.830
>> And the warmest as well. Um, it's


00:18:49.840 --> 00:18:51.110
temperature variation. I always get


00:18:51.120 --> 00:18:52.710
these figures wrong, but it's it's


00:18:52.720 --> 00:18:57.750
almost a 300° C variation from -50 to


00:18:57.760 --> 00:18:59.750
plus 150. They're slightly different,


00:18:59.760 --> 00:19:03.110
just like do.


00:19:03.120 --> 00:19:06.789
>> Yes. Yes. It's a lot like double.


00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:08.390
>> No, I think I think our temperature


00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:10.549
variations are somewhere around 50


00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:11.510
degrees,


00:19:11.520 --> 00:19:13.510
>> but it's still Yeah, that's that's


00:19:13.520 --> 00:19:14.549
right. That's remarkable.


00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:16.310
>> Celsius. Um


00:19:16.320 --> 00:19:18.950
>> 50 Celsius. Yes. What's your lowest that


00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:20.150
you've ever had?


00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:22.549
>> - 7.4,


00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:23.029
>> I think.


00:19:23.039 --> 00:19:23.669
>> Okay.


00:19:23.679 --> 00:19:25.590
>> Which was only a couple of years ago.


00:19:25.600 --> 00:19:25.909
>> Yeah.


00:19:25.919 --> 00:19:27.510
>> Y


00:19:27.520 --> 00:19:29.110
>> something like that.


00:19:29.120 --> 00:19:33.669
>> Quite our warmest is 40. No, we got to


00:19:33.679 --> 00:19:36.710
50 the year before last. So there you


00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:41.669
go. It's 50 50 nearly 58° variation.


00:19:41.679 --> 00:19:45.029
Yeah. Yeah. eat your heart out moon


00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:48.070
because the moon's much higher and of


00:19:48.080 --> 00:19:49.669
course the reason for that is that


00:19:49.679 --> 00:19:52.230
there's no atmosphere. So during the day


00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:54.150
you've got the sun's radiation beaming


00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:56.549
down heating the surface. Uh and it's


00:19:56.559 --> 00:19:57.990
the surface temperature that we talk


00:19:58.000 --> 00:19:59.750
about when we mean these things well


00:19:59.760 --> 00:20:02.470
over 100° and at night that just all


00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:05.990
radiates into space. Um and the surface


00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:09.270
cools to minusund and something degrees


00:20:09.280 --> 00:20:10.789
as well. I can't remember I can never


00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:11.990
remember the exact figures. I should


00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:15.110
have them in my head. But the good news


00:20:15.120 --> 00:20:17.029
is, and I think you know this is what


00:20:17.039 --> 00:20:21.750
Fenton's alluding to, is that the the


00:20:21.760 --> 00:20:23.830
lunar soil


00:20:23.840 --> 00:20:26.710
um is very poor. It's a very poor


00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:28.549
conductor of heat.


00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:32.149
>> Uh and so that means that, you know, you


00:20:32.159 --> 00:20:34.630
don't have to go


00:20:34.640 --> 00:20:37.590
down too far to find that those


00:20:37.600 --> 00:20:40.870
temperatures even out quite a bit. I'm


00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:44.149
reading from um from a an article


00:20:44.159 --> 00:20:46.630
actually on lunar surface temperature.


00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:48.149
Uh I'm going to quote from it.


00:20:48.159 --> 00:20:52.710
Measurements from the Apollo 15 and 17


00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:57.110
missions show that temperatures 35 cm


00:20:57.120 --> 00:20:58.630
below the surface, that's not much more


00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:05.110
than a foot, are 40 to 45° Kelvin warmer


00:21:05.120 --> 00:21:07.590
than the minimum surface nighttime


00:21:07.600 --> 00:21:09.830
temperature, avoiding the harshest cold.


00:21:09.840 --> 00:21:11.750
So it brings it it brings the


00:21:11.760 --> 00:21:14.070
temperature up and that's only a foot or


00:21:14.080 --> 00:21:15.590
so below the surface.


00:21:15.600 --> 00:21:15.990
>> Yeah.


00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:19.270
>> And then continuing the same article um


00:21:19.280 --> 00:21:21.669
by the time you get to getting on for a


00:21:21.679 --> 00:21:26.470
meter 80 cm 30 in if you prefer that


00:21:26.480 --> 00:21:30.789
below the surface the day and night


00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:34.390
variations are imperceptible.


00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:37.669
So that is incredible really that you've


00:21:37.679 --> 00:21:42.230
only got to go um you know 80 cm less


00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:45.430
than a meter below the surface and the


00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:47.510
material there does not see these


00:21:47.520 --> 00:21:51.430
enormous swings in temperature. Uh it's


00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:53.750
become imperceptible.


00:21:53.760 --> 00:21:56.149
Um and then when you get to below a


00:21:56.159 --> 00:21:59.750
meter, um then you get an average


00:21:59.760 --> 00:22:01.909
temperature which is kind of the average


00:22:01.919 --> 00:22:03.990
of the hottest and the coldest. And that


00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:05.909
is very nice because it makes it about


00:22:05.919 --> 00:22:12.230
20° C or um you know that sort of


00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:18.149
basically that uh 20° C is I beg you


00:22:18.159 --> 00:22:21.990
pardon. It's minus 20° C, not 20°, but


00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:27.110
still within reason. Um, and so there it


00:22:27.120 --> 00:22:29.029
means that if you if you can look for


00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:33.350
caves and pits in the lunar uh regalith


00:22:33.360 --> 00:22:35.750
in the in the lunar soil, then you've


00:22:35.760 --> 00:22:38.310
got a really good chance of having a


00:22:38.320 --> 00:22:41.270
place where you've got without any air


00:22:41.280 --> 00:22:43.909
conditioning or anything, you've got a a


00:22:43.919 --> 00:22:48.230
ready temperature round about 17° C uh


00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:49.270
day and night.


00:22:49.280 --> 00:22:49.669
>> Wow.


00:22:49.679 --> 00:22:52.710
>> Without these extremes. So um that's


00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:55.190
really good news I think from the


00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:57.750
perspective of our future exploration of


00:22:57.760 --> 00:23:01.270
the moon uh that this this variation uh


00:23:01.280 --> 00:23:04.070
is only on the surface. The extreme var


00:23:04.080 --> 00:23:06.630
variation is only on the surface itself.


00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:09.270
H there you go Fenton. So good question.


00:23:09.280 --> 00:23:11.750
Thanks for asking it. Uh and uh great to


00:23:11.760 --> 00:23:15.110
hear from you again. uh our uh European


00:23:15.120 --> 00:23:17.430
listener whose toddler woke them up at


00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:19.510
4:00 a.m. has sent us a note saying he's


00:23:19.520 --> 00:23:22.390
an astrobiologist working in the Exomar


00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:25.270
science team. Uh is a big fan of the


00:23:25.280 --> 00:23:27.510
show and I thought well I'm going to


00:23:27.520 --> 00:23:31.270
look this up. uh Exomar science team uh


00:23:31.280 --> 00:23:36.149
is um looking into Exom Mars missions


00:23:36.159 --> 00:23:41.909
and uh particularly in um


00:23:41.919 --> 00:23:44.870
part working on the Rosland Franklin


00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:45.990
rover


00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:48.149
>> and they're trying to find out did Mars


00:23:48.159 --> 00:23:49.909
ever have life and could traces of it


00:23:49.919 --> 00:23:52.390
still be preserved underground. So um I


00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:54.549
looked that up and and since then


00:23:54.559 --> 00:23:56.870
another notes come through. Our rover


00:23:56.880 --> 00:23:59.830
has a 2 m drill to get samples from Mars


00:23:59.840 --> 00:24:02.950
subsurface. Organics will be preserved.


00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:06.390
Um, what do you think? Will we find bio


00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:08.870
signatures? Oh, he's thrown you a curvy


00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:10.870
there.


00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:12.390
>> The trouble is it's knowing that they


00:24:12.400 --> 00:24:15.590
are bio signatures. Yes, he or she. Uh,


00:24:15.600 --> 00:24:18.710
well, look, an honor to have uh somebody


00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:20.789
working right in the front line of this


00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:22.789
stuff, particularly in Europe, very


00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:25.110
close to my heart. Uh it's an honor to


00:24:25.120 --> 00:24:27.830
have you listening and participating in


00:24:27.840 --> 00:24:30.789
the show. Thank you very much. Um the


00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:33.909
the the issue with bio signatures is are


00:24:33.919 --> 00:24:35.510
they bio signatures


00:24:35.520 --> 00:24:38.470
>> or are they false alarms? And it is so


00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:42.070
difficult to essentially eliminate


00:24:42.080 --> 00:24:44.549
everything else that could be causing


00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:46.549
whatever that bio signature is whether


00:24:46.559 --> 00:24:50.789
it's microbial structure or you know met


00:24:50.799 --> 00:24:53.350
metabolic activity or whatever it is.


00:24:53.360 --> 00:24:55.990
It's very hard to eliminate what you


00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:59.029
might call natural non-biological uh


00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:02.070
origins, but digging deep is the way to


00:25:02.080 --> 00:25:05.669
go. Um I think the Exom Mars project has


00:25:05.679 --> 00:25:07.830
had mixed fortunes because it was


00:25:07.840 --> 00:25:11.750
originally uh going to be uh a joint


00:25:11.760 --> 00:25:15.190
European Russian project um which I


00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:17.190
think was shelved probably at the time


00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:20.630
of the invasion of Crimea in 2014. I


00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:24.549
think that's what happened. Um and so um


00:25:24.559 --> 00:25:26.789
but but I think Europe is is carrying on


00:25:26.799 --> 00:25:30.710
on it on its own. Uh I wish uh our


00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:32.230
listeners and everybody working with


00:25:32.240 --> 00:25:34.789
them every success uh because these are


00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:36.149
things we want to know.


00:25:36.159 --> 00:25:38.390
>> Yeah, absolutely. Uh, issa says the


00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:40.390
rover will target an ancient clay rich


00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:42.789
region where minerals formed in the


00:25:42.799 --> 00:25:45.350
presence of abundant liquid water and


00:25:45.360 --> 00:25:46.870
could have preserved evidence of ancient


00:25:46.880 --> 00:25:48.630
life. And their launch


00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:52.549
>> window is set for late 2028 at this


00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:55.110
stage. So yes, fingers crossed. That'll


00:25:55.120 --> 00:25:56.470
be exciting. Looking forward to that.


00:25:56.480 --> 00:26:01.430
Thanks for letting us know.


00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:04.710
>> Also, space nuts. Final question, Fred.


00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:07.590
This comes from Kevin. So, uh, this is,


00:26:07.600 --> 00:26:09.909
uh, going to more of a hypothetical. I


00:26:09.919 --> 00:26:12.149
understand we have no observational


00:26:12.159 --> 00:26:14.390
evidence of white holes, but we do have


00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:16.310
a fair mathematical understanding of


00:26:16.320 --> 00:26:18.870
them. So, my question is, if a white


00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:22.230
hole actually existed, what would happen


00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:24.549
if it merged with a black hole, would


00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:26.470
they essentially cancel each other out?


00:26:26.480 --> 00:26:29.510
What would be left afterwards? Uh, just


00:26:29.520 --> 00:26:31.510
some random thoughts I was uh, thinking


00:26:31.520 --> 00:26:33.909
and would love some insight on what you


00:26:33.919 --> 00:26:35.669
guys think. Amazing show. Keep up the


00:26:35.679 --> 00:26:37.750
great work, Kevin. I know the answer to


00:26:37.760 --> 00:26:39.110
this one, Fred.


00:26:39.120 --> 00:26:41.350
>> Good. Good.


00:26:41.360 --> 00:26:44.390
>> It It would be a gray hole.


00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:47.830
>> Well, that's could be right. My mind


00:26:47.840 --> 00:26:50.710
went straight to when a black hole and a


00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:52.870
white hole love each other very much.


00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:53.430
>> Oh, boy.


00:26:53.440 --> 00:26:56.549
>> Then they


00:26:56.559 --> 00:26:58.310
come together and make a gray hole.


00:26:58.320 --> 00:26:59.110
How's that?


00:26:59.120 --> 00:26:59.430
>> Yeah.


00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:02.470
>> Um I I don't That's a good question. And


00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:05.909
um I sorry I'm I'm am still a little bit


00:27:05.919 --> 00:27:10.149
um uh unprepared for these uh because my


00:27:10.159 --> 00:27:13.110
focus is on making my knee better. But


00:27:13.120 --> 00:27:15.350
uh I would like to check that out and


00:27:15.360 --> 00:27:16.870
see what the pundits think in the world


00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:18.789
of black holes and white holes. We've


00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:21.430
never seen any evidence for a white


00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:25.269
hole. Um you can create a white hole


00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:26.789
mathematically


00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:30.149
uh by reversing the time uh factor in


00:27:30.159 --> 00:27:32.549
the equations of relativity and then you


00:27:32.559 --> 00:27:33.909
get a white hole rather than a black


00:27:33.919 --> 00:27:36.390
hole. But that does not mean that they


00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:38.390
exist. We do know that black holes


00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:40.630
exist. The evidence for their existence


00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:45.029
is absolutely compelling. Um I you know


00:27:45.039 --> 00:27:46.630
the idea of them can canceling out is


00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:49.269
the one that has the most appeal because


00:27:49.279 --> 00:27:50.549
they are sounds


00:27:50.559 --> 00:27:52.870
>> gravitational wells. Yeah, of different


00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:54.710
kinds.


00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:57.269
>> But I I that's a flippant comment. I'll


00:27:57.279 --> 00:27:58.950
need to look at this again. Perhaps you


00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:00.549
can remind me and so we can get back to


00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:01.750
Kevin


00:28:01.760 --> 00:28:03.830
>> uh and talk about what happens when you


00:28:03.840 --> 00:28:05.430
get a gray hole.


00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:08.950
>> Yeah. Um I think you end up in a


00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:14.310
retirement village or


00:28:14.320 --> 00:28:16.149
>> and Moose says, "Aren't white holes


00:28:16.159 --> 00:28:18.950
still theory only?" Yes, absolutely. We


00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:20.310
>> That's right. Absolutely right.


00:28:20.320 --> 00:28:22.389
>> Yeah. It's like many things in the


00:28:22.399 --> 00:28:24.389
universe. The mathematics says yes, they


00:28:24.399 --> 00:28:26.149
could exist.


00:28:26.159 --> 00:28:29.190
>> Um, but we've we've never seen them and


00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:31.990
we don't have any other proof. So,


00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:33.110
>> quite a


00:28:33.120 --> 00:28:35.269
>> yes indeed. Uh, thanks for the question,


00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:36.710
Kevin. Thanks to everybody who


00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:38.789
contributed. Thanks to our live audience


00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:40.710
who contributed today. Lovely to hear


00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:42.710
from you. I I think that's the most


00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:45.590
active it's ever been. So, it's value


00:28:45.600 --> 00:28:47.269
added to the show. We really appreciate


00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:50.789
it. And thank you, Fred, as always.


00:28:50.799 --> 00:28:52.630
It's a pleasure, Andrew. I hope next


00:28:52.640 --> 00:28:55.510
time we speak, my knee will be just


00:28:55.520 --> 00:28:57.750
slightly more tractable than it is at


00:28:57.760 --> 00:29:00.710
the moment as the months wear on and um


00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:03.909
I get back to being 100% mobile again,


00:29:03.919 --> 00:29:05.669
which I'm looking forward to. Fingers


00:29:05.679 --> 00:29:08.149
crossed. Good to have you back, too.


00:29:08.159 --> 00:29:10.070
>> Professor Fred Watson, astronomer at


00:29:10.080 --> 00:29:12.230
large. And uh don't forget to visit us


00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:13.909
online where you can leave questions on


00:29:13.919 --> 00:29:16.549
the AMA button at the top. Um text or


00:29:16.559 --> 00:29:18.230
audio questions. Don't forget to tell us


00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:19.830
who you are or where you're from. And


00:29:19.840 --> 00:29:21.510
please leave reviews wherever you listen


00:29:21.520 --> 00:29:24.389
to us and um have a look around on our


00:29:24.399 --> 00:29:25.909
website while you're there and see what


00:29:25.919 --> 00:29:28.789
else you can find to uh keep you amused


00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:31.110
between episodes. And uh thanks to Hugh


00:29:31.120 --> 00:29:33.190
in the studio who couldn't be with us


00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:35.669
today because um like many things in the


00:29:35.679 --> 00:29:38.389
universe, he his existence is just


00:29:38.399 --> 00:29:40.470
theoretical. And from me, Andrew


00:29:40.480 --> 00:29:42.389
Duckley, thanks for your company. We'll


00:29:42.399 --> 00:29:43.830
see you on the next episode of Space


00:29:43.840 --> 00:29:45.430
Nuts. Bye-bye.


00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:47.750
>> Space Nuts. You've been listening to the


00:29:47.760 --> 00:29:50.789
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00:29:50.799 --> 00:29:53.750
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