Cosmic Q&A: Black Holes, Stellar Densities & the Sun’s Sudden Disappearance | Space Nuts:...

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Hi there. Thanks for joining us on a Q&A


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edition of Space Nuts, our first one for


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the year. My name is Andrew Dunley, your


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host. And we've got questions from


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Justin, who's um got a sent us an audio


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question. Um he he's talking about the


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space that contains the equivalent to 4


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million stars in comparison to a black


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hole, I think. Can't remember. I I don't


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write down enough when I write down the


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descriptions of questions. Uh Charles,


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>> you're right.


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>> Fred's Fred's saying the same thing. Uh


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Charles says um is asking us a question


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about the retraction of uh the universe,


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the shrinking of it. Uh and Dean is


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asking about what might happen if the


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sun instantaneously disappeared. What


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would be the effect on our solar system


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and our planet specifically? And Patrick


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has some thoughts about uh both the


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Voyagers one and two. Mainly the fact


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that the data we've put on the plaques


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that have been put on board the Voyagers


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is actually telling anyone who finds


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them a lie. That's all coming up in this


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edition of Space Muts. And with us once


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again to decipher all of that gibberish


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that I just mentioned, and it's not the


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questions that are gibberish, it's my


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interpretation of them, is Professor


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Fred Watson, astronomer at large. Hello,


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Fred.


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>> Hi, Andrew. Your interpretation was more


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or less the same as what I thought when


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I saw them. So, I think we're on the


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same wavelength, which is good.


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>> Okay. Okay. Well, that's good. Uh, we


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might as well just hit them straight on


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the head. And our first question is an


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audio question and this one comes from


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Justin.


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>> Good day Andrew and Fred. I'm Justin


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down in Melbourne. Like Fred, I'm an


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expat pong and my astronomical claim to


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fame is that I witnessed the total solar


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eclipse in Cornwall in the UK in 1999.


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Two friends and I camped nearby and


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joined the crowds at New Key Beach on


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that day for a lifetime bucket list


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event.


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So, I have a mathematical question. I've


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often heard it said that the black hole


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at the center of the Milky Way galaxy,


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Sagittarius A star, is 4 million solar


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masses. So, for comparison, what would


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the radius be in light years of a sphere


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centered on the Earth that contains the


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nearest 4 million stars?


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Thanks very much.


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>> Thank you, Justin Cornwall. That's where


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my family originated


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before they um they got sent out here.


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No, I think they came voluntarily.


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We we didn't come with the convicts. We


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we came out later. But um yeah, Justin,


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good question. 4 million stars. Um what


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sort of space would that take up in


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terms of a radius in light years, I


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think, was the the guts of his question.


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>> Yeah. So, it's a a little bit more


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subtle than that. It's saying I figured


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it might be


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>> if you if you're sitting here on planet


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Earth um what sort of you know in our


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locality uh in the um western spiral arm


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the galaxy it's the Orion spur where we


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are uh that spiral arm that we sit in um


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what's the it's so it's really a


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question about the density of stars in


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our region uh and that's something very


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well established because we know the


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distances of lots of stars. Uh so I'm


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I'm going to put it in much rounder


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figures. Uh but um if you look at uh out


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to a thousand light years, okay, so you


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got a a sphere of radius a thousand


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light years, then that's going to have


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something like 10 million stars in it.


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>> Wow. So that's more than what uh what um


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Justin's talking about. Uh but the way


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this changes uh it changes nonlinearly.


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Uh so I'm guessing so I'm going to take


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a guess that you know around 9 900 light


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years or thereabouts you would probably


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have something like 4 million stars


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which is the same


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mass as the mass of the uh super massive


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black hole at the center of the galaxy.


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So, it's actually quite a long way. You


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know, you're looking at um yeah, several


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hundred light years uh uh in in terms of


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radius.


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Uh and um it's actually I think you


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would probably be able to find a tool


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online. I haven't found it myself


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because I haven't really looked for it,


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but I bet you can find a tool that gives


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you the exact answer to that. Uh how


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many stars are within a radius of x


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number of light years? And if you put in


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a good guess of light years, you'll


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probably get the right number of of


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stars.


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>> Do you want me to test it?


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>> Yeah, if you can find one.


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>> Yeah, I've got an idea. So, what's the


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question? How many stars in uh say


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within 900 light years?


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>> Okay. See what it is. This is a life


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>> uh radius


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of 900 light years.


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Okay.


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Let's see what happens here. Um, I'll


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just make sure I ask the question


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correctly.


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And nothing. Oh, here we go. Uh,


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uh, it's saying


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10 to 15 million.


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>> Yeah. Um, which is different from the


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calculation I saw, which is 10 million


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in a thousand. So, drop it down a bit.


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Can you put it down to 500 light years?


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See what it says for that.


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>> Okay. This is AI I assume that


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>> is doing all this for you on


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>> Mr. I absolutely love it.


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>> Um two to two and a half million stars.


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>> Yeah. So it's it's somewhere between 500


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and a thousand light years.


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>> There you go.


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>> So you put in whatever number you like


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and it'll give you the right answer. And


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Justin can have a lot of fun doing that.


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It's a great question actually.


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>> It's working out the averages. So


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750 light years transposes to 7 to 8


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million stars. So


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>> yeah.


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>> Yeah.


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>> There you go. You could do this all day


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really.


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>> Um I don't think we've ever been asked


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that before.


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>> No, I don't think so either.


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>> Not in that that way. Um


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>> we have had questions about you know the


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density the average density of stars in


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the solar neighborhood and that's really


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what this is all about.


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>> Yeah.


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>> Uh but uh yeah good stuff Justin. Thank


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you for your question and greetings to


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me Melbourne. It's 42 in Melbourne


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today, I think.


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>> Yes. Um we've we've got 38 here today. I


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went and played golf in that this


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morning and uh I was what's the word I


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used one of my friends used to use a lot


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when he was tired. I was jigged by the


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end of it.


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>> Jiggered. That's


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>> jigged. I don't know where it comes


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from.


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>> Granddad used to use that.


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>> Yeah.


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>> Yeah. Ah, wheel it in. It's jigged.


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>> Yeah. It was uh it was a tough day out,


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I must say. Uh thanks, Justin. Our next


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question comes from Charles. Uh, but


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because I've been using chat GPT to


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solve all the pro riddles of the


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universe, I've lost the question. All


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right. If


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>> if the universe does cease expanding and


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retracts, does that mean the lifetime of


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the universe goes from untold trillion


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beyond trillions of years or just a


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measly few billion? This one comes from


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Charles in Brooklyn and New York. I was


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in Brooklyn. Not so long ago. Walked


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across the Brooklyn Bridge.


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>> Yeah.


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>> In about August. It was.


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>> Were you jigggered when you got to the


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end?


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>> I was jigged before I started cuz we've


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been walking all day.


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>> Yeah, I can imagine. Um I think Charles


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is right actually.


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Uh look, it it may still


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I mean the the difference is really that


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if if we have a universe which is


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dominated by a constant


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uh um dark energy term. In other words,


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something that puts more energy into the


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expansion of space as the expansion as


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space gets bigger. Uh that means it will


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go on expanding forever. M


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>> um so and and Charles summarizes that by


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untold untold trillions beyond trillions


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which I guess is forever. Uh but if the


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dark energy is reducing and that's


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certainly being hinted at by the latest


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observations


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then um we don't know what what's going


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to happen because we don't know how


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quickly it's reducing and whether it may


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even go negative so that suddenly


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there's a positive attraction of stuff.


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it's not being repelled like it is now,


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that could bring it down to a few


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billion years. Uh but if it just goes


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settles back to something where it's the


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normal gravitational content of the


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universe that dominates everything, uh


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and so in other words, all the galaxies


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are pulling each other together. Uh then


00:09:05.839 --> 00:09:07.350
you you might be talking about a bit


00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:09.269
longer. It might still be a few trillion


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years rather than a few measly billions.


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Uh but uh interesting question, a nice


00:09:14.320 --> 00:09:16.230
thought experiment there from Charles in


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Brooklyn.


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>> Yes, indeed. And


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as you said, the the theory about when


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like I think I've said it before, when I


00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:26.150
was growing up, it was always assumed


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that the universe would stop expanding


00:09:28.160 --> 00:09:30.389
and then start sort of folding back in


00:09:30.399 --> 00:09:31.750
on itself.


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>> Uh the big crunch or the gab gibb,


00:09:34.720 --> 00:09:36.550
>> whatever you want to call it. But um


00:09:36.560 --> 00:09:39.509
then then it was decided that uh it was


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going to continue expanding at an


00:09:40.959 --> 00:09:43.030
accelerating rate. Now they've decided


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and and that could lead to a big rip.


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But now it's looking more like the


00:09:47.839 --> 00:09:50.630
acceleration is slowing


00:09:50.640 --> 00:09:52.790
and now all the bets are off and we're


00:09:52.800 --> 00:09:55.110
back to back to square one or something.


00:09:55.120 --> 00:09:57.509
I'm not sure. It's it's


00:09:57.519 --> 00:09:59.590
>> Yeah. How do you prove it?


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>> Well,


00:09:59.920 --> 00:10:02.790
>> I mean you you can you can Yeah. You you


00:10:02.800 --> 00:10:05.430
can measure that what's going on.


00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:06.630
get. Yeah.


00:10:06.640 --> 00:10:08.550
>> And and that's that's the trick. I mean,


00:10:08.560 --> 00:10:09.910
you know, if we'd been having this


00:10:09.920 --> 00:10:12.230
conversation a year ago, we'd have been


00:10:12.240 --> 00:10:14.550
>> completely sold on the the big rip


00:10:14.560 --> 00:10:16.230
because there was nothing to suggest


00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:17.750
that the expansion


00:10:17.760 --> 00:10:19.590
>> was going to slow down. The expansion


00:10:19.600 --> 00:10:21.350
was known to be accelerating. That was


00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:23.430
discovered in 1998.


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>> Um but it's only within the last year


00:10:25.519 --> 00:10:27.910
with um results from project called


00:10:27.920 --> 00:10:31.910
DESI. uh the dark energy survey


00:10:31.920 --> 00:10:34.630
instrument I think is the right thing.


00:10:34.640 --> 00:10:39.190
Uh but that's basically established that


00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:40.710
established is the wrong word. It has


00:10:40.720 --> 00:10:43.990
suggested that the acceleration is


00:10:44.000 --> 00:10:46.870
slower now than it was a couple of


00:10:46.880 --> 00:10:48.069
billion years ago.


00:10:48.079 --> 00:10:51.990
>> Yeah. uh and that uh is leading people


00:10:52.000 --> 00:10:54.150
to the hint that maybe the acceleration


00:10:54.160 --> 00:10:56.550
will eventually not be there and that's


00:10:56.560 --> 00:10:58.949
why we might get the gab gibb. But I


00:10:58.959 --> 00:11:00.790
think we are we're still talking about I


00:11:00.800 --> 00:11:02.069
think really think it's trillions of


00:11:02.079 --> 00:11:03.750
years into the future.


00:11:03.760 --> 00:11:05.750
>> It's like blowing up a balloon though


00:11:05.760 --> 00:11:07.829
when you start it goes out fast but as


00:11:07.839 --> 00:11:10.870
it gets bigger the expansion continues


00:11:10.880 --> 00:11:13.910
but it just it slows down. It's the same


00:11:13.920 --> 00:11:15.990
thing.


00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:19.590
>> Okay.


00:11:19.600 --> 00:11:22.630
Maybe not. It does remind me um we we


00:11:22.640 --> 00:11:25.110
got a question in German the other day


00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:27.350
because apparently now what they're


00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:28.870
doing on YouTube, the people who listen


00:11:28.880 --> 00:11:32.790
to us on YouTube is uh it's now


00:11:32.800 --> 00:11:34.710
English-speaking


00:11:34.720 --> 00:11:37.910
YouTube podcasts are being translated


00:11:37.920 --> 00:11:41.430
into other languages. So apparently we


00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:43.509
were being heard in German and a German


00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:46.389
listener on YouTube sent us a question


00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:50.150
in German and we had to translate it


00:11:50.160 --> 00:11:52.310
into English so that we knew what he was


00:11:52.320 --> 00:11:53.910
asking. But I don't think it translated


00:11:53.920 --> 00:11:56.150
very well. But it was something about


00:11:56.160 --> 00:11:58.630
how do you prove the expansion of the


00:11:58.640 --> 00:12:01.590
universe if you haven't found a


00:12:01.600 --> 00:12:02.790
particle?


00:12:02.800 --> 00:12:05.350
>> Well, I I wasn't sure whether I I I did


00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:06.470
look at that question. And in fact, I


00:12:06.480 --> 00:12:08.629
did send an answer which I think um you


00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:10.629
might have put through some language


00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:14.069
mangling s um system to give a the


00:12:14.079 --> 00:12:18.069
answer in German. Uh mut's


00:12:18.079 --> 00:12:24.870
crap. Uh so um so that's K K R Ap. It's


00:12:24.880 --> 00:12:27.350
not


00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:30.870
>> uh um so um I think I wasn't sure


00:12:30.880 --> 00:12:33.110
whether it was somebody talking about


00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:35.269
dark energy or dark matter. Yeah, I


00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:36.069
wasn't sure either.


00:12:36.079 --> 00:12:38.389
>> But dark matter, yes, we do need to know


00:12:38.399 --> 00:12:41.190
what the particles are. And um I hope


00:12:41.200 --> 00:12:42.949
we'll discover them. I I'm not


00:12:42.959 --> 00:12:44.550
optimistic. We're going to find that out


00:12:44.560 --> 00:12:47.110
during 2026, but you never know.


00:12:47.120 --> 00:12:48.629
Anything's possible.


00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:50.550
>> Thanks for your question, Charles. This


00:12:50.560 --> 00:12:53.030
is Space Nuts uh Q&A edition with Andrew


00:12:53.040 --> 00:12:56.389
Dunley and Fred Watson.


00:12:56.399 --> 00:12:57.910
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>> Three, two, one.


00:14:24.079 --> 00:14:27.430
>> Spacenuts. Uh, next up we've got Dean


00:14:27.440 --> 00:14:30.310
who's got a kind of a what if question


00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:32.870
for I love these Fred. These are my


00:14:32.880 --> 00:14:34.710
favorite questions. What if this


00:14:34.720 --> 00:14:35.030
happens?


00:14:35.040 --> 00:14:36.870
>> Hi Fred and Andrew. This is Dean in


00:14:36.880 --> 00:14:38.949
Redcliffe in Queensland. Thanks for


00:14:38.959 --> 00:14:41.430
answering my previous questions. Today


00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:43.189
I'm asking about a thought experiment


00:14:43.199 --> 00:14:45.189
that was once used to consider issues


00:14:45.199 --> 00:14:47.269
around the speed of light. I think it


00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:49.590
may have been Einstein. The scenario


00:14:49.600 --> 00:14:51.910
asks, "What happens if our sun suddenly


00:14:51.920 --> 00:14:54.310
disappears? And would the sudden lack of


00:14:54.320 --> 00:14:56.710
gravity affect the earth instantly or


00:14:56.720 --> 00:14:58.790
would there be a delay if the gravity


00:14:58.800 --> 00:15:01.750
effect travels at a particular speed?"


00:15:01.760 --> 00:15:03.590
Before I get to my actual question, I


00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:05.750
want to ask about thought experiments.


00:15:05.760 --> 00:15:07.590
They seem like a useful tool to get


00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:09.670
started on a problem, but I question the


00:15:09.680 --> 00:15:12.389
value of an experiment where the initial


00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:14.710
proposition is impossible.


00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:16.550
The mass of the sun can't actually just


00:15:16.560 --> 00:15:19.269
disappear. So maybe basing conclusions


00:15:19.279 --> 00:15:21.590
from this is not reliable. What are your


00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:24.310
thoughts? However, if I just focus on


00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:26.389
the idea of the sun disappearing, I'd


00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:28.310
say that gravity is not a force


00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:30.310
generated by the sun, but is a


00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:32.949
compression of the spaceime around it.


00:15:32.959 --> 00:15:35.910
If the sun disappeared instantly, then


00:15:35.920 --> 00:15:38.470
spacetime would decompress back to a


00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:40.629
smooth state except for the planets and


00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:43.269
moons still in the vicinity. There would


00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:44.870
also have to be an unwinding of the


00:15:44.880 --> 00:15:47.590
frame dragging around where the sun was.


00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:49.430
Let me know if I'm wrong, but it seems


00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:52.069
to me that a sudden decompression and


00:15:52.079 --> 00:15:54.069
unwinding of some local spacetime would


00:15:54.079 --> 00:15:57.189
be violent, but would not be instant.


00:15:57.199 --> 00:16:00.790
Imagine the 2D model of this using a


00:16:00.800 --> 00:16:02.550
large rubber sheet with a heavy ball in


00:16:02.560 --> 00:16:04.870
the center representing the sun. If you


00:16:04.880 --> 00:16:07.030
suddenly removed the ball, then the


00:16:07.040 --> 00:16:09.829
warped sheet would snap back into a flat


00:16:09.839 --> 00:16:13.829
plane quickly, but not instantly.


00:16:13.839 --> 00:16:16.550
Spacetime is very stiff. Maybe the Earth


00:16:16.560 --> 00:16:19.590
would start to feel some effect very


00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:21.829
quickly, but there would be a smooth


00:16:21.839 --> 00:16:25.030
transition to the complete lack of sun's


00:16:25.040 --> 00:16:26.870
gravity while the local spaceime is


00:16:26.880 --> 00:16:29.829
settling into a decompressed state. I


00:16:29.839 --> 00:16:31.910
also expect there would be a compression


00:16:31.920 --> 00:16:34.949
wave i.e. a gravity wave generated from


00:16:34.959 --> 00:16:39.350
an event like this. What do you think?


00:16:39.360 --> 00:16:41.590
There's a lot packaged into that. Uh


00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:44.150
thank you Dean. Uh so there's a question


00:16:44.160 --> 00:16:46.550
or two questions effectively uh that


00:16:46.560 --> 00:16:49.829
he's asking about. Um what's the worth


00:16:49.839 --> 00:16:54.389
of thought experiments? Uh now


00:16:54.399 --> 00:16:56.069
yeah


00:16:56.079 --> 00:16:58.150
I I just did a little bit of research


00:16:58.160 --> 00:17:00.389
while I was listening to him and that to


00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:02.790
give you an idea of thought experiments


00:17:02.800 --> 00:17:04.710
u there have been many famous ones over


00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:07.669
the years. Schroinger's cat. Uh,


00:17:07.679 --> 00:17:10.710
Galileo's falling bodies.


00:17:10.720 --> 00:17:12.630
Um, there's one called the trolley


00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:14.230
problem. I have to look into that. Don't


00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:16.710
know what that one is. But, um, yeah,


00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:18.710
they have been very helpful over the


00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:21.350
years. I I do think there is worth in


00:17:21.360 --> 00:17:23.429
thought experiments. It's a way of


00:17:23.439 --> 00:17:25.669
exploring something that we can't solve


00:17:25.679 --> 00:17:26.949
yet because we haven't got the


00:17:26.959 --> 00:17:30.549
technology to solve it. uh it gives you


00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:32.230
something to work with and it tosses


00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:35.510
around ideas that may provide solutions.


00:17:35.520 --> 00:17:39.190
It's um I think I yeah I I love I love


00:17:39.200 --> 00:17:41.110
the concept. I think it's very valuable.


00:17:41.120 --> 00:17:44.310
If it's how we start making inquiries


00:17:44.320 --> 00:17:45.990
with thought experiments, you know, if


00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:48.150
we if we didn't use our imaginations,


00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:49.750
then we probably wouldn't solve


00:17:49.760 --> 00:17:51.190
anything.


00:17:51.200 --> 00:17:54.070
>> Exactly. Um a great answer actually,


00:17:54.080 --> 00:17:56.789
Andrew. Thank you. I um I I'll I'll just


00:17:56.799 --> 00:17:59.350
go home and talk about


00:17:59.360 --> 00:18:01.830
No, I I entirely agree. Um the one that


00:18:01.840 --> 00:18:03.909
came to my mind was a thought experiment


00:18:03.919 --> 00:18:06.070
that had it had the real experiment been


00:18:06.080 --> 00:18:08.310
carried out, uh physics would have grown


00:18:08.320 --> 00:18:11.590
to a halt very quickly. And that's uh uh


00:18:11.600 --> 00:18:15.510
Einstein's musing in 197


00:18:15.520 --> 00:18:17.830
about what would happen if he jumped off


00:18:17.840 --> 00:18:20.310
the top of the patent building in Burn,


00:18:20.320 --> 00:18:21.669
which is where he was working at the


00:18:21.679 --> 00:18:24.230
time. He was a patent administrator.


00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:26.230
Uh and so he imagined himself jumping


00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:28.470
off the top of the building. Uh so if he


00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:30.150
carried that out as a real experiment,


00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:31.669
that could have been the end of a lot of


00:18:31.679 --> 00:18:32.789
really good stuff.


00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:33.270
>> Yeah.


00:18:33.280 --> 00:18:36.310
>> Uh so uh but what it gave him was the


00:18:36.320 --> 00:18:37.830
inspiration


00:18:37.840 --> 00:18:40.710
uh to um define what we now call the


00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:43.029
principle of equivalence. The fact that


00:18:43.039 --> 00:18:46.470
acceleration and gravity are to all


00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:50.710
intents and purposes the same. Um so and


00:18:50.720 --> 00:18:51.909
the fact that you're accelerating


00:18:51.919 --> 00:18:54.390
towards the earth uh cancels out the


00:18:54.400 --> 00:18:55.990
earth's gravity because the two are


00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:58.310
exactly equal. And that's why as you as


00:18:58.320 --> 00:18:59.990
you you know as you jump off the


00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:02.549
building uh your pipe floats out of your


00:19:02.559 --> 00:19:04.390
mouth if you've got money in your hands


00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:05.830
or something like that it just floats


00:19:05.840 --> 00:19:07.270
away. You can actually demonstrate it


00:19:07.280 --> 00:19:08.789
very easily on a trampoline.


00:19:08.799 --> 00:19:09.110
>> Yes.


00:19:09.120 --> 00:19:11.029
>> Uh without jumping off buildings. But it


00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:12.870
was that thought experiment that led to


00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:15.430
the principle of equivalence which told


00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:17.830
Einstein that gravity is actually a


00:19:17.840 --> 00:19:20.950
geometrical problem rather than you know


00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:23.669
something entwined in physics. We know


00:19:23.679 --> 00:19:25.350
it is we still don't really understand


00:19:25.360 --> 00:19:27.909
the physics of gravity but the geometry


00:19:27.919 --> 00:19:31.350
works so well uh in the general theory


00:19:31.360 --> 00:19:34.150
of relativity that um the principle of


00:19:34.160 --> 00:19:36.630
equivalence has been demonstrated to be


00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:38.710
accurate to within one part in 10 to the


00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:40.150
18 or something. I can't remember what


00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:42.789
the latest the latest thing is uh that


00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:45.270
it does work very very well indeed. Uh


00:19:45.280 --> 00:19:47.669
so yes, thought experiments are great.


00:19:47.679 --> 00:19:49.830
Um now the thought experiment regarding


00:19:49.840 --> 00:19:51.510
taking the sun out the solar system is


00:19:51.520 --> 00:19:53.750
very well established as to what


00:19:53.760 --> 00:19:56.549
happens. Uh the the earth feels nothing


00:19:56.559 --> 00:19:59.110
for the first eight minutes. Uh because


00:19:59.120 --> 00:20:01.270
gravitational energy travels at the same


00:20:01.280 --> 00:20:05.430
speed as light. uh and once uh the the


00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:07.750
message that there is no gravitating


00:20:07.760 --> 00:20:09.909
gravitating body in the center of the


00:20:09.919 --> 00:20:12.070
solar system reaches the earth 8 minutes


00:20:12.080 --> 00:20:14.710
after the sun has gone um the earth just


00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:17.350
carries on in a straight line.


00:20:17.360 --> 00:20:20.950
>> Uh uh so that's uh that's well


00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:25.110
understood. So I think um I think uh um


00:20:25.120 --> 00:20:29.029
Dean's um uh thinking about the you know


00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:31.590
the the two-dimensional idea of the


00:20:31.600 --> 00:20:33.909
gravity well which is a great way of


00:20:33.919 --> 00:20:36.470
thinking of the way uh mass distorts


00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:39.190
time. Uh we're we're used to thinking


00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:41.669
okay you've got a a rock in the middle


00:20:41.679 --> 00:20:43.590
of a trampoline it's pulling it down.


00:20:43.600 --> 00:20:44.950
You take the rock away the trampoline


00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:47.830
just springs back. Uh but actually uh it


00:20:47.840 --> 00:20:50.789
wouldn't the spacetime would take uh


00:20:50.799 --> 00:20:53.590
time uh the the basically the message


00:20:53.600 --> 00:20:55.830
that it had sprung back would take would


00:20:55.840 --> 00:20:57.909
travel outwards at the speed of light.


00:20:57.919 --> 00:20:59.990
Uh and so it's the same you know the


00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:01.909
same thing looking at it either as a


00:21:01.919 --> 00:21:05.029
gravity well or as gravitational energy


00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:07.029
or radiation. One day we'll have a


00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:08.390
quantum theory of gravity and we'll be


00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:10.789
able to talk about gravitons uh which


00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:12.630
are the hypothetical particles that


00:21:12.640 --> 00:21:14.230
carry gravity and they move at the speed


00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:16.310
of light. Of course, you we we should


00:21:16.320 --> 00:21:18.149
mention the catastrophe that would then


00:21:18.159 --> 00:21:20.230
follow eight minutes after the the sun


00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:22.549
suddenly disappeared. For example,


00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:25.110
Pavlov's dog and Schroing Schroinger's


00:21:25.120 --> 00:21:26.470
cat would live together.


00:21:26.480 --> 00:21:28.390
>> Yes.


00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:32.710
>> So, they would Yeah. Oh, dear me. That's


00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:33.909
Yes. That


00:21:33.919 --> 00:21:35.909
>> would be would be a mess.


00:21:35.919 --> 00:21:36.470
>> Things are good.


00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:38.149
>> Well, how long would the Earth last


00:21:38.159 --> 00:21:39.909
after that effect?


00:21:39.919 --> 00:21:41.750
>> Uh, it would be fine. It would just keep


00:21:41.760 --> 00:21:43.350
on going. um you know assuming there


00:21:43.360 --> 00:21:46.710
wasn't some sort of um uh catastrophic


00:21:46.720 --> 00:21:48.310
event that caused the sun to disappear.


00:21:48.320 --> 00:21:50.630
If you just remove the sun without


00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:52.950
anything explosive or and anything which


00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:55.270
you could do in a thought experiment um


00:21:55.280 --> 00:21:57.190
the earth just keeps keeps on going. It


00:21:57.200 --> 00:21:58.950
would be like Voyager one and Voyager 2.


00:21:58.960 --> 00:22:01.190
It will get very very cold. Uh we as a


00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:02.710
species would almost certainly not


00:22:02.720 --> 00:22:03.909
survive. No.


00:22:03.919 --> 00:22:05.590
>> Uh because the temperatures would


00:22:05.600 --> 00:22:08.630
plummet to very low levels indeed. Um,


00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:11.990
so yes, an interesting scenario.


00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:13.350
>> Doesn't sound like much fun.


00:22:13.360 --> 00:22:14.390
>> It's not fun. No.


00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:15.350
>> No. Anyway,


00:22:15.360 --> 00:22:16.070
>> think about it, though.


00:22:16.080 --> 00:22:19.430
>> We're we're stuck with um with the sun


00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:22.149
for several more billion years.


00:22:22.159 --> 00:22:24.149
>> Yes, indeed we are.


00:22:24.159 --> 00:22:27.270
>> Yeah. But, uh, great questions, Dean. I


00:22:27.280 --> 00:22:29.830
really enjoy those kinds of questions.


00:22:29.840 --> 00:22:33.270
So, uh, yeah, thanks for sending it in.


00:22:33.280 --> 00:22:34.870
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on the link in the show notes.


00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:03.510
3 2 1


00:24:03.520 --> 00:24:07.590
>> Space nuts. Our final question today


00:24:07.600 --> 00:24:09.669
comes from Patrick. He's a conspiracy


00:24:09.679 --> 00:24:11.350
theorist. Well, he's probably not, but I


00:24:11.360 --> 00:24:13.750
I do like this question because I I


00:24:13.760 --> 00:24:16.149
didn't know this. Uh the Voyager


00:24:16.159 --> 00:24:18.549
spacecraft have plaques on them. I did


00:24:18.559 --> 00:24:21.350
know that. And as far as I can find out,


00:24:21.360 --> 00:24:23.430
both show them leaving the solar system


00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:27.510
ecliptic uh between Jupiter and Saturn.


00:24:27.520 --> 00:24:30.549
That didn't happen. And from what I've


00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:32.789
read, Voyager 1 left after a visit to


00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:36.390
Titan while Voyager 2 carried on. Uh


00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:39.029
Voyager 1 has a chance to visit uh had a


00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:41.269
chance to visit Pluto. So here's the


00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:43.909
questions. Why does the plaque show an


00:24:43.919 --> 00:24:46.230
early departure of Voyager 1 and why


00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:49.830
does Voyager 2's path show the same? Um


00:24:49.840 --> 00:24:52.070
hope you both had a wonderful Christmas


00:24:52.080 --> 00:24:56.470
and um hello from a wet northern island,


00:24:56.480 --> 00:24:59.029
Patrick. wet Northern Ireland. It's


00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:01.350
probably still wet just like we're still


00:25:01.360 --> 00:25:03.750
dry. This we've hit the hottest driest


00:25:03.760 --> 00:25:05.990
part of the year in Australia and um it


00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:09.430
is it is dry as a chip as we say in this


00:25:09.440 --> 00:25:13.269
country at the moment. Um yeah. Okay. I


00:25:13.279 --> 00:25:15.190
I didn't realize that the plaques had


00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:18.630
the supposed path of both spacecraft,


00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:20.870
but they didn't go that way. Um did they


00:25:20.880 --> 00:25:24.630
get pulled over by an RBT perhaps?


00:25:24.640 --> 00:25:27.110
Um, I thought you'd have spotted this


00:25:27.120 --> 00:25:29.830
one right at the start, Andrew.


00:25:29.840 --> 00:25:32.230
>> Really?


00:25:32.240 --> 00:25:33.510
>> Is he playing us?


00:25:33.520 --> 00:25:36.149
>> No. Uh, no. He's He's got his spacecraft


00:25:36.159 --> 00:25:38.310
mixed up because it's the two the two


00:25:38.320 --> 00:25:41.350
pioneers that show the spacecraft


00:25:41.360 --> 00:25:43.750
leaving the solar system between the


00:25:43.760 --> 00:25:45.430
orbits of Jupiter.


00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:48.070
>> I never even thought of that.


00:25:48.080 --> 00:25:49.830
>> Voyager doesn't actually have a diagram


00:25:49.840 --> 00:25:51.350
like that on it. He's got mostly


00:25:51.360 --> 00:25:53.830
diagrams how to play the golden record.


00:25:53.840 --> 00:25:54.630
>> That's right.


00:25:54.640 --> 00:25:57.350
>> Um, so it's the Pioneer spacecraft. So


00:25:57.360 --> 00:26:00.230
Patrick, you your your question's a good


00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:03.269
one, but I think the premise is wrong.


00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:04.870
It's it's not the Voyager spacecraft


00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:06.789
that had the diagram. It's the Pioneers.


00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:09.269
>> Well, how about that?


00:26:09.279 --> 00:26:11.190
>> Yeah, I'm just looking at them now.


00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:13.190
Okay,


00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:15.990
that's really And it's got the the human


00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:17.350
being on it and all that.


00:26:17.360 --> 00:26:19.430
>> I actually really like the Pioneer uh


00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:20.789
plugs. I think they're


00:26:20.799 --> 00:26:23.269
>> elegant and decorative and


00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:25.990
>> uh tell the story just show aliens just


00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:27.190
how


00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:29.669
>> chewy we are and you know


00:26:29.679 --> 00:26:31.110
>> how tasty we might be


00:26:31.120 --> 00:26:33.830
>> and how um unfortunate that male


00:26:33.840 --> 00:26:36.710
appendages. It's um it's well below par.


00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:38.710
But um


00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:41.110
and the other the other factor is that


00:26:41.120 --> 00:26:41.269
um


00:26:41.279 --> 00:26:42.630
>> thanks Andrew.


00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:44.470
>> Aliens will look at these two human


00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:48.470
figures and they'll go she does not like


00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:49.750
him. that.


00:26:49.760 --> 00:26:51.430
>> Yeah, that's right.


00:26:51.440 --> 00:26:53.990
>> The body language is not positive.


00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:55.909
>> That's true. There is body language on


00:26:55.919 --> 00:26:58.549
there that really Yeah, I I'm with you


00:26:58.559 --> 00:27:01.269
on that actually.


00:27:01.279 --> 00:27:03.190
>> It's all about body language. Yeah.


00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:04.950
>> So, now I'm going to have to look up


00:27:04.960 --> 00:27:07.830
what the Voyager plaques look like.


00:27:07.840 --> 00:27:08.390
>> Yeah.


00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:10.630
>> Ah, see it's Yes. It's the golden record


00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:13.830
with the um um bits and bobs on them


00:27:13.840 --> 00:27:15.830
>> stuff on it. Yeah. Yeah.


00:27:15.840 --> 00:27:17.510
>> Okay.


00:27:17.520 --> 00:27:20.630
So, um, right idea, wrong wrong


00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:22.789
spacecraft is basically the answer to


00:27:22.799 --> 00:27:24.549
the question.


00:27:24.559 --> 00:27:26.549
>> Uh, I think that's correct. So,


00:27:26.559 --> 00:27:27.669
>> yeah. So,


00:27:27.679 --> 00:27:28.390
>> and, um, look,


00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:30.230
>> I think we can safely say that Voyager 1


00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:32.310
and Voyager 2 did go where we intended


00:27:32.320 --> 00:27:32.789
them to.


00:27:32.799 --> 00:27:33.430
>> Yes, they did.


00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:34.230
>> Go.


00:27:34.240 --> 00:27:35.510
>> And they're still going.


00:27:35.520 --> 00:27:37.110
>> Yeah, indeed they are. Voyager 2, well,


00:27:37.120 --> 00:27:39.430
Pioneer 10 and 11 are as well. Uh,


00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:41.669
Voyager 2 was the one that flew by


00:27:41.679 --> 00:27:44.149
Uranus and Neptune as well as Jupiter


00:27:44.159 --> 00:27:46.870
and Saturn. fantastic details that came


00:27:46.880 --> 00:27:49.190
from those two spacecraft. As Voyager


00:27:49.200 --> 00:27:51.190
One, as we've said many times before, is


00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:55.269
the most distant human-made object and


00:27:55.279 --> 00:27:58.149
is still on its way. It's almost a light


00:27:58.159 --> 00:27:59.830
day away. We should have a little party


00:27:59.840 --> 00:28:01.830
at Space Nots when it crosses a light


00:28:01.840 --> 00:28:04.630
day uh the light day boundary.


00:28:04.640 --> 00:28:07.190
>> Yeah. Which is happening in about 500


00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:08.950
years from now. No, I'm not sure.


00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:10.549
>> It's uh can't be that far away.


00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:12.070
>> Yeah, it's a few years. Yeah, a couple


00:28:12.080 --> 00:28:12.710
of years. I think


00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:15.830
>> it's about 23 light hours at the moment.


00:28:15.840 --> 00:28:17.990
Uh so it'll be Yeah. four or five years


00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:18.470
and


00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:20.470
>> Yeah. Wow. Yeah. But we should do


00:28:20.480 --> 00:28:21.510
something special about that.


00:28:21.520 --> 00:28:22.230
>> We should do that.


00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:23.669
>> Yes.


00:28:23.679 --> 00:28:25.350
>> All right. Um well, that was easily


00:28:25.360 --> 00:28:26.710
solved. Thanks for the question, though,


00:28:26.720 --> 00:28:29.350
Patrick. It sort of Yeah, it reminds us


00:28:29.360 --> 00:28:31.669
that as time goes on, you can sort of


00:28:31.679 --> 00:28:34.870
mix two totally different things


00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:38.149
together and yeah, it throws throws your


00:28:38.159 --> 00:28:41.669
brain out. Um, it reminds me of a story


00:28:41.679 --> 00:28:45.590
once where um, oh gosh, a guy I worked


00:28:45.600 --> 00:28:49.350
with in radio did a special about um,


00:28:49.360 --> 00:28:51.750
uh, Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis getting


00:28:51.760 --> 00:28:53.430
back together. Remember them? Yeah.


00:28:53.440 --> 00:28:55.750
>> Yeah. But he thought it was Jerry Lee


00:28:55.760 --> 00:28:57.669
Lewis and


00:28:57.679 --> 00:28:59.590
>> so he did this whole special with Jerry


00:28:59.600 --> 00:29:01.830
Lee Lewis music and


00:29:01.840 --> 00:29:04.230
>> it completely wrong.


00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:04.710
>> Yes.


00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:06.230
>> But it can happen.


00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:10.070
>> It can happen. Yeah. I um Yes, I looked


00:29:10.080 --> 00:29:11.830
at some research recently where they'd


00:29:11.840 --> 00:29:14.230
got the wrong telescope. Uh


00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:16.149
>> yeah, it's like getting the color of the


00:29:16.159 --> 00:29:17.350
universe wrong when you make


00:29:17.360 --> 00:29:19.269
>> That's another one. That's correct. Yes.


00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:20.950
Yeah.


00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:22.789
>> Oh, there's a list of them. There's a


00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:24.310
list of them. So, don't feel bad,


00:29:24.320 --> 00:29:27.029
Patrick. It happens to the best of us.


00:29:27.039 --> 00:29:28.549
>> Uh but thanks for the question. Lovely


00:29:28.559 --> 00:29:29.750
to hear from you. If you've got


00:29:29.760 --> 00:29:31.830
questions for us, please send them in to


00:29:31.840 --> 00:29:33.990
us via our website. Just go to


00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:36.470
spacenutspodcast.com


00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:38.389
or spacenuts.io


00:29:38.399 --> 00:29:41.669
if you're a lazy typist and click on the


00:29:41.679 --> 00:29:44.230
AMA button up the top and you can send


00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:47.510
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00:29:47.520 --> 00:29:49.190
we sometimes get them through YouTube.


00:29:49.200 --> 00:29:51.350
So if you're YouTube listener, please uh


00:29:51.360 --> 00:29:53.350
send them in. Um be happy to hear from


00:29:53.360 --> 00:29:56.470
you. Uh and uh don't forget reviews. We


00:29:56.480 --> 00:29:58.470
we really appreciate your reviews. The


00:29:58.480 --> 00:30:01.269
more reviews the better. Um, I mean it's


00:30:01.279 --> 00:30:04.789
an astronomy podcast, so you know, um,


00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:06.870
five stars would be the absolute


00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:09.510
minimum, I would expect. That's up to


00:30:09.520 --> 00:30:12.149
you. No influence here. No influence


00:30:12.159 --> 00:30:12.549
here.


00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:13.669
>> 4 million stars. That's


00:30:13.679 --> 00:30:16.470
>> 4 million stars. Yes. Deal.


00:30:16.480 --> 00:30:18.710
>> Uh, and um, yeah, if you'd like to do


00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:20.070
that for us, that' be great. And don't


00:30:20.080 --> 00:30:22.549
forget to um check out our website. Uh,


00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:25.029
if you want to uh support us, um, some


00:30:25.039 --> 00:30:27.510
people do through um, Patreon and and


00:30:27.520 --> 00:30:29.990
Supercast. Uh there's a little button


00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:33.269
where it it says support our podcasts.


00:30:33.279 --> 00:30:34.950
So click that button. You can find out


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more about it. It's totally voluntary.


00:30:37.360 --> 00:30:39.190
Uh Fred, we are done. Thank you so much


00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:40.950
for answering those questions.


00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:42.950
>> Oh, it's a pleasure. It's um always good


00:30:42.960 --> 00:30:47.669
to interact with our four listeners.


00:30:47.679 --> 00:30:50.789
>> We've only got four at a time.


00:30:50.799 --> 00:30:52.870
>> Yeah. No, it's good. And thank you very


00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:55.430
much again as always, Andrew, for being


00:30:55.440 --> 00:30:56.710
the host of Space Notes.


00:30:56.720 --> 00:30:58.950
>> Oh, my great pleasure. It's good fun.


00:30:58.960 --> 00:31:00.950
Uh, Professor Fred Watson, astronomer at


00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:02.549
large. He'll join us again on the next


00:31:02.559 --> 00:31:04.470
episode. Uh, and Hugh in the studio,


00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:06.310
couldn't be with us today because he was


00:31:06.320 --> 00:31:09.029
doing a thought experiment.


00:31:09.039 --> 00:31:13.750
Uh, where he didn't exist.


00:31:13.760 --> 00:31:15.830
What more can I say? Uh, and from me,


00:31:15.840 --> 00:31:17.190
Andrew Dunley, thanks for your company.


00:31:17.200 --> 00:31:18.630
We'll catch you on the next episode of


00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:20.389
Space Nuts. Bye-bye.


00:31:20.399 --> 00:31:22.710
>> Space Nuts. You've been listening to the


00:31:22.720 --> 00:31:25.669
Space Nuts podcast


00:31:25.679 --> 00:31:28.710
>> available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify,


00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:31.350
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00:31:31.360 --> 00:31:33.750
player. You can also stream on demand at


00:31:33.760 --> 00:31:36.630
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00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:41.159
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