Cosmic Dust in a Jar, Volcanic Eruptions on Io & Following the Coal to Find Extraterrestrial...

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Hi there. Thanks for joining us. This is


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Space Nuts. My name is Andrew Dunley and


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it's always good to have your company. I


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hope you're well. Coming up on this


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episode, uh we will be discussing these


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things. A Sydney PhD student has created


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cosmic dust in a jar. Probably not quite


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a jar, but pretty close to a jar. So,


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how did they do it? And what does this


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mean? Does it mean we'll never have to


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go out into space again? Possibly. Uh


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anyway, that's a really good story. This


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one, because I'm a bit of a volcano


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junkie, uh simultaneous volcanic


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eruptions have been recorded on Io, one


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of Jupiter's moons. And it um it's it's


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a very rare event. In fact, I think it's


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the first time it's been recorded as far


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as I'm aware. So, we'll look at that.


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And here is a a line for the ages. Find


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the coal and we find the people. Mhm.


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That's all coming up in this episode of


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Space Nuts.


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>> 15 seconds. Guidance is internal. 10 9


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Ignition sequence start.


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>> Space Nuts.


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>> 5 4 3 2


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>> 1 2 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1


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>> Space Nuts.


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>> Astronauts report. It feels good.


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>> And here to unravel the revelment that


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is all of those stories is Professor


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Fred Watson, astronomer at large. Hello,


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Fred.


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>> Hi, Andrew. I can easily ravel them all


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up again. I can tell you. Make them even


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more revealed than they were to start


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with.


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>> Yes. Well, you know, we don't strive for


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excellence here. We never have. It's all


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about adequacy.


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>> Yeah. Haven't touched a while.


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>> Sometimes we don't even make adequacy.


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>> No, probably not.


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>> No. But um yeah, the there's some quirky


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stories today. And I I'm very excited


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about this first one. Uh because uh this


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I I mean I joked about us not having to


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go back into space uh and and you know


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intercept asteroids and and collect junk


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from them because this kind of does it


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for us and you don't have to leave the


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planet. Uh the Sydney PhD student


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creating cosmic dust. This is this is


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quite extraordinary. It it is it's


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actually a great story. Uh, and it's


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nice that it's got um, you know, it's


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got a a local um, flavor to it because


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of the Sydney University connection. Um,


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I used to have an uh, an honorary


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professorship at Sydney University, but


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I think it's lapsed now. I think they've


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got rid of me. So, never mind. I'm still


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>> like dishonoring a chick.


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>> Yeah. Still happy to sing their praises.


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Sydney University is pretty good,


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particularly physician. My My dad went


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there.


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>> Yeah, that's good. Anyway, uh what's it


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all about? Um it's about a bit of a


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mystery because we now know uh that you


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know a lot of the the complex organic


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molecules that we often talk about as


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the building blocks of life, the amino


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acids and all of those sorts of things.


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Um we know that they are found in space.


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Uh but what's not been clear is well two


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things not clear. One is did they find


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their way to earth and maybe you know


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when we find these chemicals in uh for


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example in in meteors and in comets


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maybe yes there have been collisions


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that have brought them to earth. So


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that's that's a fairly logical step. But


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the big question has been how do they


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form in the depths of space uh in enough


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quantities that they're quite


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commonplace. And we know they are


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because we can see a lot of these um


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um basically these chemicals uh deep in


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the the dust and gas clouds that we


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often analyze. Um things like the nebula


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which have got not just gas in them


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glowing gas but often clouds of dust as


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well. And dust is very well studied by


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astronomers using infrared and radio


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telescopes. In fact, one of my close


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friends who was uh one of my fellow


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students hundreds of years ago at St.


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Andrews made his career uh in studying


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cosmic dust and the contents of that and


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looking at the way these chemicals come


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together uh or or have have been brought


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together. Uh the question is how do they


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come together and that's the question


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that's been asked by a team at uh Sydney


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University uh including the PhD


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candidate who's uh I think she might be


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the lead author on this paper Linda uh


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Lassudo. uh she has essentially um


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created this synthetic version of the


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cosmic dust that our uh infrared and


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radioastronomy colleagues measure in


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clouds of gas and dust. Uh she's created


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it, she synthesized


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it in the laboratory, probably as you


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said in a jar


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>> um with other things as well. Uh and um


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the extraordinary thing is that what


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she's created seems to match what these


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carbonacious


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uh dust particles tell us in space. Um


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in other words uh you know it seems like


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a very um accurate synthesis. So what


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she did was t took uh a set of gases


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quite simple uh uh nitrogen, carbon


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dioxide and acetylene which uh also


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contains hydrogen oxygen um these gases


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in a tube and then basically irradiated


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them with very intense electrical


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energy. They put 10,000 volts into the


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tube uh which was almost in a vacuum. So


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the pressures are very low


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>> um and you actually if you do that you


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get these glow discharge phenomena you


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get colors appearing from the exciting


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um exitation of the atoms. But what she


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also found was uh that uh on silicon


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basically uh uh uh sorry not silicon


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silicate uh silicate fingers within the


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within the tube. They found these tiny


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particles of dust forming and when they


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analyze them uh they've got exactly the


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same chemical signature as these dust


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clouds in space.


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And so what they're saying is that these


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um basically these chemicals do form in


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the kind of high energy environment that


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you find around for example a white


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dwarf star that's beaming out


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ultraviolet radiation or in the


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aftermath of a supernova um where you've


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got a sort of neutron star which is also


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uh got high energy processes because the


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you know the the supernova explosion


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itself creates shock waves and things of


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that sort. So, she's basically mimicking


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those conditions and finding that what


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she gets in the jar is what you get in


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space when you see those conditions. So,


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it's a really nice piece of work. Uh,


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and congratulations to them.


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>> Yes. Yes, indeed. And, uh, I mean, I was


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probably being a bit


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silly uh, suggesting that uh, this is


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going to replace the need to go out and


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catch asteroids and have a scratch


00:07:26.080 --> 00:07:27.830
around on the surface. We still need to


00:07:27.840 --> 00:07:29.830
do that because they're not all


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identical. There's going to be things to


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learn from from various missions in the


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future, which we've already seen uh come


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to fruition in a couple of cases. But I


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suppose what she's done is she's she's


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opened a door to learning how things


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happen way out in space where we can't


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even get and and and maybe coming up


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with uh ways of looking at these


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mysteries at a local level and and


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kind of um you putting a bit more light


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on them, I suppose.


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>> Yeah. Um that's right. to study them


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better. And you know, I'm sure this is


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just the beginning of a series of


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experiments that will produce some


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really interesting results, might maybe


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even give us um molecules that are


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actually closer to life molecules uh


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than they've already found. So, I think


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uh I think it's a very promising avenue


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of research. Yeah, it uh sort of


00:08:27.280 --> 00:08:29.830
coincides with a story I read uh last


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week that had nothing to do with


00:08:31.280 --> 00:08:34.310
astronomy or space dust, but um it was a


00:08:34.320 --> 00:08:36.709
it was a science story about a um a


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bloke who went to a river and took a


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handful of mud, shoved it in a jar, and


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then sealed it off from the rest of the


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world. and he just he filled it with


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water and just put it uh to one side and


00:08:51.920 --> 00:08:54.949
he left it and he covered it up and he


00:08:54.959 --> 00:08:57.269
didn't go back for um I don't know a


00:08:57.279 --> 00:08:59.269
couple of months I think it was and when


00:08:59.279 --> 00:09:02.230
he came back it had created its own


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balanced ecosystem


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completely separate from the rest of the


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world new life had come and gone um and


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a a species had become dominant some


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kind of slug


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You know, it really does make you wonder


00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:22.710
how life hasn't been found anywhere else


00:09:22.720 --> 00:09:26.070
yet if that can be done with a blob of


00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:29.030
mud from a river in a sealed jar. I


00:09:29.040 --> 00:09:30.630
mean, if you opened it, it all dies


00:09:30.640 --> 00:09:33.269
because they've created their own world.


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>> But it's it was an amazing story. I was


00:09:36.399 --> 00:09:38.630
captivated by it that that I I didn't


00:09:38.640 --> 00:09:39.910
think it was possible. I thought if you


00:09:39.920 --> 00:09:43.430
cut off the outside world, um that would


00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:45.030
be the end of it. But no, they created


00:09:45.040 --> 00:09:46.949
their own ecosystem and their own


00:09:46.959 --> 00:09:50.070
environment and their own atmosphere and


00:09:50.080 --> 00:09:53.350
um yeah, it worked. It's I I didn't


00:09:53.360 --> 00:09:55.350
think it was possible. Now kids are


00:09:55.360 --> 00:09:57.350
going to be going out um you know


00:09:57.360 --> 00:10:00.150
filling jars with mud and sealing them


00:10:00.160 --> 00:10:02.710
up.


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>> Fascinating experiment.


00:10:04.240 --> 00:10:05.910
>> Yeah. If you wait a few million years,


00:10:05.920 --> 00:10:08.150
your jar might you know evolve a a


00:10:08.160 --> 00:10:09.590
dinosaur or something like that.


00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:11.829
>> Well, it could a miniature one. You


00:10:11.839 --> 00:10:14.150
never know. That's a fascinating story.


00:10:14.160 --> 00:10:16.389
And this one is too. And you can read


00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:19.829
about it at f.org. Uh, and I think the


00:10:19.839 --> 00:10:23.750
paper was published in the


00:10:23.760 --> 00:10:26.389
uh I've lost it. There you go. I saw it


00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:28.150
there a minute ago, but was there was a


00:10:28.160 --> 00:10:29.509
paper published the Astrophysical


00:10:29.519 --> 00:10:32.230
Journal. There you are. Um, so look out


00:10:32.240 --> 00:10:34.550
for that one. This is Space Nuts with


00:10:34.560 --> 00:10:39.430
Andrew Dunley and Professor Fred Watson.


00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:41.110
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>> Tangi base here. The angle has landed.


00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:14.069
>> Space nets.


00:12:14.079 --> 00:12:15.990
>> Now this uh next story is just as


00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:18.389
fascinating. Uh I guess most people will


00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:22.389
have heard of the moon EO which orbits


00:12:22.399 --> 00:12:26.550
Jupiter. Uh it's a very very interesting


00:12:26.560 --> 00:12:30.230
and somewhat foroding place. It's um


00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:33.350
just absolutely covered in volcanoes and


00:12:33.360 --> 00:12:35.990
they erupt quite a lot. But what's


00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:38.389
happened in this case is they have had


00:12:38.399 --> 00:12:39.910
five


00:12:39.920 --> 00:12:42.949
volcanoes erupt simultaneously which is


00:12:42.959 --> 00:12:44.629
kind of got them wondering what's going


00:12:44.639 --> 00:12:47.030
on inside.


00:12:47.040 --> 00:12:49.030
>> Exactly. Um that's right. In fact,


00:12:49.040 --> 00:12:52.230
that's the story in a nutshell. Um, so


00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:55.829
yes, Io, uh, the innermost of the large


00:12:55.839 --> 00:12:57.590
moons of Jupiter, the ones that were


00:12:57.600 --> 00:13:01.350
discovered by Galileo back in 1610.


00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:04.949
Um, it's the nearest one to the planet.


00:13:04.959 --> 00:13:08.870
And that means it feels the strongest


00:13:08.880 --> 00:13:12.310
and most uh disruptive, if I can put it


00:13:12.320 --> 00:13:13.910
that way, gravitational pull from


00:13:13.920 --> 00:13:17.509
Jupiter. Um, so it's constantly being


00:13:17.519 --> 00:13:21.350
squashed and squeezed by the gravitation


00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:24.389
of Jupiter and that's what we think is


00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:26.550
the reason behind its very active and


00:13:26.560 --> 00:13:29.509
dynamic uh volcanism. It's the it is the


00:13:29.519 --> 00:13:31.509
most volcanically active body in the


00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:33.990
solar system. It's not the one covered


00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:35.990
with the most volcanoes. That's actually


00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:41.350
Venus. Uh but um Venus may be um may be


00:13:41.360 --> 00:13:43.350
inactive now. We we don't actually know


00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:45.509
whether Venus's volcanoes are still


00:13:45.519 --> 00:13:47.509
active. You and I have talked about that


00:13:47.519 --> 00:13:49.590
before, but we definitely know that the


00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:52.230
ones on Io are uh because we've seen


00:13:52.240 --> 00:13:55.350
them on many occasions. And the results


00:13:55.360 --> 00:13:59.829
that um have brought this story to uh to


00:13:59.839 --> 00:14:04.230
uh uh you know to the the science media


00:14:04.240 --> 00:14:07.430
um uh have come from our old friend


00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:10.470
Juno. uh the spacecraft the orbiting


00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:13.030
spacecraft uh a NASA spacecraft which is


00:14:13.040 --> 00:14:17.430
in orbit around around Jupiter and it's


00:14:17.440 --> 00:14:21.750
uh captured uh basically infrared images


00:14:21.760 --> 00:14:26.790
of the southern polar region of Io and


00:14:26.800 --> 00:14:29.430
has realized that there are five


00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:31.030
volcanoes


00:14:31.040 --> 00:14:33.990
going off at the same time. Uh it's uh


00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:37.110
so it is really uh quite um an


00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:38.389
extraordinary thing. Quite a


00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:41.509
coincidence. These uh these volcanoes,


00:14:41.519 --> 00:14:44.389
they're all in the southern south pole


00:14:44.399 --> 00:14:48.069
region of Io. Um EO is about the same


00:14:48.079 --> 00:14:49.670
size as our moon. It's not a small


00:14:49.680 --> 00:14:52.790
world. Uh so uh what they've what


00:14:52.800 --> 00:14:57.829
they've um done is tried to work out


00:14:57.839 --> 00:15:01.829
what that means. uh if you've got um


00:15:01.839 --> 00:15:04.550
first of all a very violent uh eruption


00:15:04.560 --> 00:15:08.150
that was what draw drew their attention


00:15:08.160 --> 00:15:11.350
uh to this event um but the fact that


00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:15.269
nearby there were others in in sync with


00:15:15.279 --> 00:15:20.069
the with the main volcano. Uh so what I


00:15:20.079 --> 00:15:22.629
think is coming out of this is the


00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:25.750
suggestion of a porous or spongy


00:15:25.760 --> 00:15:29.189
interior for Io rather than uh a solid


00:15:29.199 --> 00:15:32.389
body as as was thought before. Uh and


00:15:32.399 --> 00:15:33.990
that might mean that there's some sort


00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:36.389
of like almost like a liquid magma


00:15:36.399 --> 00:15:38.870
reservoir that's actually big enough


00:15:38.880 --> 00:15:42.470
that it pokes through the crust in a


00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:43.910
number of different places. And so


00:15:43.920 --> 00:15:45.829
you've got several volcanoes all


00:15:45.839 --> 00:15:48.150
erupting simultaneously, what they call


00:15:48.160 --> 00:15:51.829
interconnected magma chambers uh which


00:15:51.839 --> 00:15:55.910
would allow uh for these highly lava


00:15:55.920 --> 00:15:57.670
richch eruptions to take place


00:15:57.680 --> 00:16:00.710
simultaneously. Um and so it it sort of


00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:03.350
calls into question the the old idea


00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:07.670
about the um interior of IO which was


00:16:07.680 --> 00:16:10.870
thought to be fairly solid. Uh but if


00:16:10.880 --> 00:16:13.670
it's kind of porous and spongy, then


00:16:13.680 --> 00:16:15.509
that might explain why we're seeing


00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:17.829
these phenomena of such volcanic


00:16:17.839 --> 00:16:19.110
activity.


00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:21.110
>> Yeah. And


00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:23.509
the it's not the same kind of activity


00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:25.829
as we see on Earth with our volcanic


00:16:25.839 --> 00:16:30.550
eruptions. Um you know, which is uh well


00:16:30.560 --> 00:16:34.470
to go to well EO. It's being really


00:16:34.480 --> 00:16:37.110
squashed by the gravitational pull of


00:16:37.120 --> 00:16:38.949
Jupiter, isn't it? Is that what's ma


00:16:38.959 --> 00:16:41.110
mainly like you squeeze the sponge and


00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:42.629
all the stuff comes out? That is that


00:16:42.639 --> 00:16:43.269
what's happening?


00:16:43.279 --> 00:16:45.110
>> Well, yes. It's almost like that. That's


00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:47.670
right. Um you're right that as I said


00:16:47.680 --> 00:16:49.749
it's the uh the gravitational squashing


00:16:49.759 --> 00:16:51.990
and squeezing that that being so close


00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:54.790
to Jupiter provides um what we call


00:16:54.800 --> 00:16:58.150
tidal forces, the the tidal effect. Um


00:16:58.160 --> 00:17:01.670
so yes and you know it it's as as though


00:17:01.680 --> 00:17:05.510
uh um all the volcanoes in the


00:17:05.520 --> 00:17:07.510
Mediterranean for example suddenly


00:17:07.520 --> 00:17:12.710
started uh erupting at once. Um Vuvius


00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:14.949
and and um you know the the other ones


00:17:14.959 --> 00:17:16.470
that are in that region


00:17:16.480 --> 00:17:18.150
>> Stromboli.


00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:19.750
Yes. Yeah. Etna. That's right. That's


00:17:19.760 --> 00:17:21.829
the one I was thinking of. uh all of


00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:24.230
those um if they all suddenly started


00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:27.270
spewing out stuff at once uh that would


00:17:27.280 --> 00:17:30.710
suggest something going on as we've got


00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:33.110
uh apparently on Io. But AO is a very


00:17:33.120 --> 00:17:34.950
different world from the Earth. It's and


00:17:34.960 --> 00:17:37.190
you know and part part of the reason for


00:17:37.200 --> 00:17:39.430
that is this external gravitational


00:17:39.440 --> 00:17:41.750
stress that comes from Jupiter.


00:17:41.760 --> 00:17:44.549
>> Yeah, it's a it's a very toxic world,


00:17:44.559 --> 00:17:48.230
isn't it? It's um not it's not a nice


00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:49.510
place. You wouldn't want to wander


00:17:49.520 --> 00:17:50.950
around on on it.


00:17:50.960 --> 00:17:53.590
>> Well, it's mostly sulfur sulfur deposits


00:17:53.600 --> 00:17:55.270
that have come from these volcanoes.


00:17:55.280 --> 00:17:56.470
Yeah.


00:17:56.480 --> 00:17:59.430
>> Yeah. It's um Yeah, it it actually is a


00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:01.110
that's a nice thought experiment just to


00:18:01.120 --> 00:18:02.630
imagine what it would be like wandering


00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:05.430
around on EO. I think it might be quite


00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:06.310
um


00:18:06.320 --> 00:18:08.150
>> quite an interesting experience.


00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:11.990
>> Wouldn't smell very nice.


00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:13.430
>> No, neither would you probably after


00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:13.669
you.


00:18:13.679 --> 00:18:15.510
>> No, no, not jumped over the volcanoes


00:18:15.520 --> 00:18:18.710
and the lava lakes. It's got lava lakes,


00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:21.909
um big puddles of lava that we we know


00:18:21.919 --> 00:18:23.590
about, too. So, yes, an extraordinary


00:18:23.600 --> 00:18:24.310
world.


00:18:24.320 --> 00:18:27.270
>> Yeah, it's got uh over 400 active


00:18:27.280 --> 00:18:29.510
volcanoes apparently.


00:18:29.520 --> 00:18:30.789
>> Yeah, that's right.


00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:32.390
>> That's amazing. Now, you said it was


00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:33.990
about the same size as the moon. Here's


00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:35.830
another thought experiment. If you were


00:18:35.840 --> 00:18:39.430
to swap the moon and Eo, if you could


00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:42.630
just somehow, you know,


00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:44.150
put one way or the other is and vice


00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:46.470
versa, what would happen to Eio orbiting


00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:47.909
Earth and what would happen to the moon


00:18:47.919 --> 00:18:49.990
orbiting Jupiter?


00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:52.390
Uh I think the moon would turn into Eio


00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:55.669
and Eo would turn into the moon because


00:18:55.679 --> 00:18:57.669
yeah because the you know that yes there


00:18:57.679 --> 00:18:59.350
might be compositional differences and


00:18:59.360 --> 00:19:01.909
things of that sort but um it really is


00:19:01.919 --> 00:19:05.990
the it's the environment that dictates


00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:08.870
why Eio is so volcanically active and


00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:11.110
the moon of course in a much much more


00:19:11.120 --> 00:19:14.950
benign environment uh it's in fact the


00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:17.750
main we do see evidence of large scale


00:19:17.760 --> 00:19:19.110
volcanism on the moon that's where the


00:19:19.120 --> 00:19:21.350
Maria here came from the this the what


00:19:21.360 --> 00:19:23.590
so-called seas on the near side of the


00:19:23.600 --> 00:19:27.110
of the moon these dark darker areas um


00:19:27.120 --> 00:19:29.430
they are the result of bassalt flows of


00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:33.190
lava flows but um uh that is from a


00:19:33.200 --> 00:19:35.669
period a long long time ago and the heat


00:19:35.679 --> 00:19:39.029
was probably driven more by impacts by


00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:40.870
bombardment this is during the late


00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:42.630
heavy bombardment when a lot of stuff


00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:45.350
was was hitting the moon uh and the


00:19:45.360 --> 00:19:47.350
earth too but earth of course has plate


00:19:47.360 --> 00:19:49.110
tectonic so the evidence of all That's


00:19:49.120 --> 00:19:51.190
gone whereas it's still around on the


00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:54.789
moon. Uh so but but since that period 3


00:19:54.799 --> 00:19:56.789
and a half four billion years ago things


00:19:56.799 --> 00:19:58.470
have been pretty quiet on the moon but


00:19:58.480 --> 00:20:00.710
if you put it where EO is now I'm sure


00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:03.430
it would turn into another EO. I yeah


00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:06.390
well I I wondered and yeah um that is


00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:08.870
interesting cuz we're pretty glad it


00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:10.630
won't happen but um then again if you


00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:12.789
did if you did swap them it would make


00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:14.870
Artemus 2 a really interesting mission.


00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:16.549
>> It certainly would.


00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:19.430
>> Yeah. Yeah. It would. Imagine having to


00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:21.029
pick your way between the volcanoes


00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:23.830
before you land your SpaceX Starship on


00:20:23.840 --> 00:20:24.710
the moon.


00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:28.310
>> Absolutely. Um and I I I also read that


00:20:28.320 --> 00:20:30.230
part of that gravitational tug of war


00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:34.070
that causes the volcanism on Io is also


00:20:34.080 --> 00:20:36.070
attributable to Europa and Ganymede.


00:20:36.080 --> 00:20:38.950
Apparently they um have a part to play


00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:41.750
in it as well. So poor old EO is getting


00:20:41.760 --> 00:20:43.590
you know bounced around like a ping pong


00:20:43.600 --> 00:20:46.390
ball


00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:50.149
which is messy. It's as it turns out.


00:20:50.159 --> 00:20:50.549
>> Yeah.


00:20:50.559 --> 00:20:52.710
>> Yeah. You wouldn't want to play ping


00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:53.590
pong with it, though.


00:20:53.600 --> 00:20:55.270
>> No. No. Definitely not. It would


00:20:55.280 --> 00:20:58.149
definitely pong


00:20:58.159 --> 00:20:59.190
>> for certain.


00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:00.950
>> I wish I could say I fed you that line,


00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:02.630
but I'm afraid I didn't.


00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:05.270
>> Yes. Oh, that's how it goes. Uh, if you


00:21:05.280 --> 00:21:06.950
would like to read up on that story,


00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:10.230
it's on the Daily Galaxy website, and


00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:11.750
I'm sure you'll be able to find a paper


00:21:11.760 --> 00:21:13.190
about it somewhere as well because I


00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:14.710
forgot to look. I usually look these


00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:17.590
things up and and some people do like to


00:21:17.600 --> 00:21:20.149
read the papers, but uh I I didn't do it


00:21:20.159 --> 00:21:23.029
in this case. And I'm doing what's


00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:24.710
called padding right now so that I can


00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:26.310
actually find where the paper's been


00:21:26.320 --> 00:21:27.909
published and then tell you because


00:21:27.919 --> 00:21:29.590
you'll think I'm amazing, but no, I've


00:21:29.600 --> 00:21:31.669
got no idea. Yes, I have. It's been


00:21:31.679 --> 00:21:35.830
published in JR Planet.


00:21:35.840 --> 00:21:37.029
>> Try to get that in.


00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:38.789
>> That's an old radio trick. that is


00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:40.630
whether you need where there's something


00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:43.350
you need to say and you you haven't got


00:21:43.360 --> 00:21:45.270
quite got your finger on the button that


00:21:45.280 --> 00:21:48.870
um you just away until you find it.


00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:52.470
>> Um it's the you patter


00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:55.909
you're doing that then on autopilot and


00:21:55.919 --> 00:21:57.990
you're never quite sure what's going to


00:21:58.000 --> 00:21:58.870
come out.


00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:01.110
>> No, that's true.


00:22:01.120 --> 00:22:03.909
>> Yeah, that's very true.


00:22:03.919 --> 00:22:06.070
But where it is, it is available the


00:22:06.080 --> 00:22:09.669
paper at JGR Planets. This is Space


00:22:09.679 --> 00:22:12.070
Nuts. Andrew Dunley here with Professor


00:22:12.080 --> 00:22:15.270
Fred Watson.


00:22:15.280 --> 00:22:17.110
>> Hey, that's one of the better sims,


00:22:17.120 --> 00:22:18.149
believe me.


00:22:18.159 --> 00:22:19.750
>> We've had a couple of cardiac arrests


00:22:19.760 --> 00:22:21.350
down here too, peeps.


00:22:21.360 --> 00:22:23.110
>> Many times were that up here.


00:22:23.120 --> 00:22:25.350
>> Space nuts.


00:22:25.360 --> 00:22:29.029
>> Our final story, Fred, uh, is a really


00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:31.350
good one as well. And I I love the way


00:22:31.360 --> 00:22:34.230
they've um sort of spun this one. Uh


00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:36.549
we've talked before about the search for


00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:40.390
uh extraterrestrial life and whether or


00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:42.710
not there are intelligent uh


00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:46.310
communication capable uh beings


00:22:46.320 --> 00:22:49.830
somewhere else in the universe. This new


00:22:49.840 --> 00:22:52.789
study or theory or whatever you want to


00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:54.230
call it that's been published in the


00:22:54.240 --> 00:22:56.070
International Journal of Astrobiology by


00:22:56.080 --> 00:23:00.070
the way uh is basically saying that if


00:23:00.080 --> 00:23:02.549
we can find the coal


00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:05.190
we will find the people there. They've


00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:07.029
got a really interesting theory and it I


00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:09.510
I think it probably


00:23:09.520 --> 00:23:12.230
does have some street cred.


00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:13.990
>> Um yeah, that's right. the the normal


00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:16.149
mantra we talk about is follow the water


00:23:16.159 --> 00:23:18.710
but in this case it's follow the coal uh


00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:21.110
and the difference is that um following


00:23:21.120 --> 00:23:23.510
the water we hope will lead you lead us


00:23:23.520 --> 00:23:26.630
to living organisms um whereas following


00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:30.230
the coal might lead you to ET uh and it


00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:33.270
all all this um all this article is


00:23:33.280 --> 00:23:37.990
saying uh really is that we as an


00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:41.510
intelligent species and with a fairly


00:23:41.520 --> 00:23:44.630
high degree of technology which you and


00:23:44.640 --> 00:23:48.470
I are using right now. Um that uh has


00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:52.630
only come about because of the coal


00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:56.070
reserves that we find on the planet and


00:23:56.080 --> 00:23:58.710
what that um and the reason for that is


00:23:58.720 --> 00:24:01.510
that it you know the coal basically


00:24:01.520 --> 00:24:04.230
fueled the industrial revolution in


00:24:04.240 --> 00:24:07.110
North America, the UK and uh and Europe.


00:24:07.120 --> 00:24:09.510
Uh that was in fact the world I grew up


00:24:09.520 --> 00:24:12.950
in, Andrew, was still fueled by coal. Uh


00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:18.630
it was a very coal dependent um uh um


00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:21.430
environment that I that I lived in. Uh


00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:23.909
you've got to have coal in order to gain


00:24:23.919 --> 00:24:26.789
enough heat to be able to forge steel.


00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:30.789
uh then your steel needs to be um honed


00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:33.590
and treated in such a way that you can


00:24:33.600 --> 00:24:35.510
actually keep going and finding more


00:24:35.520 --> 00:24:38.870
fossil fuel like oil for example with


00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:42.390
drill bits. Uh so all of that stuff uh


00:24:42.400 --> 00:24:44.470
they say comes actually from the fact


00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:47.190
that there were coal deposits not too


00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:49.510
far from the surface of the planet at


00:24:49.520 --> 00:24:52.470
just the time that we were we as a


00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:55.750
species were emerging uh and recognizing


00:24:55.760 --> 00:24:58.870
the possibilities of the of the um


00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:00.789
industrial revolution although it wasn't


00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:04.710
called that then. Um and and in fact um


00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:06.950
here's the a quote and I'm quoting here


00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:09.110
again from f.org


00:25:09.120 --> 00:25:11.669
Uh without access to coal, our own


00:25:11.679 --> 00:25:13.590
civilization would never have been able


00:25:13.600 --> 00:25:15.590
to harness deep deposits of oil and gas


00:25:15.600 --> 00:25:17.830
and in turn generate enough heat and


00:25:17.840 --> 00:25:20.310
electricity to melt steel. Uh this


00:25:20.320 --> 00:25:21.909
enabled the development of radio


00:25:21.919 --> 00:25:23.990
telescopes that today dot our own planet


00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:25.590
which can send and receive messages


00:25:25.600 --> 00:25:28.230
across interstellar space. So what


00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:30.230
they're saying is they're linking our


00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:34.549
technological prowess uh to this sort of


00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:39.510
accident almost that we had these um


00:25:39.520 --> 00:25:42.870
coal beds laid down 70 or so million


00:25:42.880 --> 00:25:45.990
years ago. uh that are kind of just at


00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:49.110
the right time for us to or were at the


00:25:49.120 --> 00:25:51.190
right time for them to have turned into


00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:53.990
coal and for that coal to be available


00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:56.789
near the surface so that we as a species


00:25:56.799 --> 00:26:01.430
could actually mine it um and basically


00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:04.149
uh make use of it. M


00:26:04.159 --> 00:26:07.830
>> uh what what the authors of this article


00:26:07.840 --> 00:26:10.630
say is that


00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:16.549
if humans or something like humans had


00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:21.029
evolved earlier than we did then coal


00:26:21.039 --> 00:26:24.149
might not have existed. it it might not


00:26:24.159 --> 00:26:27.110
have, you know, got from the basically


00:26:27.120 --> 00:26:30.789
the peak that that formed coal uh into


00:26:30.799 --> 00:26:33.590
the material that we can now mine. And


00:26:33.600 --> 00:26:38.230
so that suggests that once again there


00:26:38.240 --> 00:26:41.430
is uh you know it's almost like good


00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:44.549
bits of good luck that uh lead to our


00:26:44.559 --> 00:26:47.110
int our evolution as an intelligent


00:26:47.120 --> 00:26:50.950
species. And what in turn that suggests


00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:54.149
is that once again uh other intelligent


00:26:54.159 --> 00:26:56.149
species out there who are technically


00:26:56.159 --> 00:27:00.070
technologically able um may actually be


00:27:00.080 --> 00:27:03.110
very rare in they're there at all if if


00:27:03.120 --> 00:27:05.029
the circumstances that they're pointing


00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:08.630
to are required for uh an intelligent


00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:11.430
species to be able to communicate which


00:27:11.440 --> 00:27:13.510
is one of the Drake equation


00:27:13.520 --> 00:27:15.590
>> that's parameters


00:27:15.600 --> 00:27:18.630
>> uh that that could mean that the number


00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:21.430
of intelligent species


00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:24.549
is probably even less than we would


00:27:24.559 --> 00:27:26.549
consider or hope.


00:27:26.559 --> 00:27:29.190
>> Um, and that that's a bit sobering, a


00:27:29.200 --> 00:27:31.190
bit sad in many.


00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:32.870
>> Well, that's right. You know, there's so


00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:35.909
many um aspects of the Drake equation.


00:27:35.919 --> 00:27:37.510
We


00:27:37.520 --> 00:27:41.430
excuse me. We only the only um you know,


00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:43.269
firm part of the Drake equation that we


00:27:43.279 --> 00:27:45.510
know about is that stars do form


00:27:45.520 --> 00:27:47.990
planets. planets are very common which


00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:49.669
was not known excuse me when Frank


00:27:49.679 --> 00:27:51.029
>> Drake


00:27:51.039 --> 00:27:54.149
>> uh put that equation together but yes um


00:27:54.159 --> 00:27:56.710
the number of civilizations that do go


00:27:56.720 --> 00:27:58.789
on to develop the technology to


00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:01.029
communicate that is one of the one of


00:28:01.039 --> 00:28:02.710
the terms in the equation and if you


00:28:02.720 --> 00:28:04.549
don't have coal you might never get


00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:05.190
there.


00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:07.830
>> Yeah. Does that mean though that there


00:28:07.840 --> 00:28:12.070
may be intelligent species roaming


00:28:12.080 --> 00:28:13.830
planets somewhere else in the universe,


00:28:13.840 --> 00:28:15.990
but because they haven't been able to do


00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:17.830
what we've done because they don't have


00:28:17.840 --> 00:28:21.269
access to say coal,


00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:23.590
they reach a point where they they can't


00:28:23.600 --> 00:28:25.830
go any further. So, they're wandering


00:28:25.840 --> 00:28:27.590
around in their jockeyies, you know,


00:28:27.600 --> 00:28:29.190
knocking


00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:30.630
dinosaurs on the head or whatever they


00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:33.590
do. Um, and that's as good as it gets.


00:28:33.600 --> 00:28:34.149
Is that perfect?


00:28:34.159 --> 00:28:35.269
>> Absolutely.


00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:37.110
permanently in the stone age. Yes, I


00:28:37.120 --> 00:28:38.710
think I think that is. Yeah.


00:28:38.720 --> 00:28:42.310
>> Wow. And until a coal comet lands on the


00:28:42.320 --> 00:28:44.549
planet where


00:28:44.559 --> 00:28:45.190
>> the coal


00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:49.029
>> or or a Coke a Coke um asteroid bottle


00:28:49.039 --> 00:28:52.310
>> cuz just Yeah. Or that. Yeah. Wasn't


00:28:52.320 --> 00:28:54.630
there a movie about that once?


00:28:54.640 --> 00:28:55.110
>> Surprised.


00:28:55.120 --> 00:28:56.710
>> An African native who got hit on the


00:28:56.720 --> 00:28:59.590
head by a Coke bottle and decided to


00:28:59.600 --> 00:29:01.669
return it to the gods. That's a very


00:29:01.679 --> 00:29:04.950
funny film. Um yes. Uh but yes, find the


00:29:04.960 --> 00:29:07.350
coal and we might find the people. It


00:29:07.360 --> 00:29:10.230
does seem to have a bit of credibility


00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:12.230
that particular theory and you can read


00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:15.830
all about it at fizz.org.


00:29:15.840 --> 00:29:18.630
Uh it's also been published in the


00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:20.710
International Journal of Astrobiology.


00:29:20.720 --> 00:29:24.070
It's a fascinating story and uh yeah, it


00:29:24.080 --> 00:29:26.549
does suggest that um there might be


00:29:26.559 --> 00:29:29.110
intelligent species out there that um


00:29:29.120 --> 00:29:30.789
can't communicate ever because they


00:29:30.799 --> 00:29:32.630
don't have the tools because they can't


00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:36.149
make them. So um that that does um that


00:29:36.159 --> 00:29:38.950
is fascinating indeed. Uh we're just


00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:40.789
about uh done. Fred, thank you very


00:29:40.799 --> 00:29:43.110
much. A nice quick one today.


00:29:43.120 --> 00:29:46.950
>> Uh it was certainly nice and uh and also


00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:48.070
quick. Yes, you're right. I've just


00:29:48.080 --> 00:29:49.909
looked at the time. Uh, we'll chat again


00:29:49.919 --> 00:29:51.669
soon, I hope. Um, what's your name


00:29:51.679 --> 00:29:53.269
again? Andrew. That's right.


00:29:53.279 --> 00:29:54.789
>> It's definitely not Fred.


00:29:54.799 --> 00:29:56.630
>> No, it's you were gonna be James there


00:29:56.640 --> 00:29:58.870
for a minute and still quite know what


00:29:58.880 --> 00:30:00.389
was going on there.


00:30:00.399 --> 00:30:02.310
>> I know Fred's already taken, so I can't


00:30:02.320 --> 00:30:03.990
have that one. All right, we'll catch


00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:05.669
you next time. Thanks, Fred.


00:30:05.679 --> 00:30:09.510
>> Yeah, see you later, Dave.


00:30:09.520 --> 00:30:11.990
>> I get that one a lot. Professor


00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:13.669
Professor Fred Watson, astronomer at


00:30:13.679 --> 00:30:16.470
large, joining us here on Space Nuts. Uh


00:30:16.480 --> 00:30:18.149
don't forget to visit us online as well


00:30:18.159 --> 00:30:21.269
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00:30:21.279 --> 00:30:23.350
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00:30:23.360 --> 00:30:25.510
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00:30:54.399 --> 00:30:56.389
And thanks to Hugh in the studio who


00:30:56.399 --> 00:30:58.389
couldn't be with us today because he's


00:30:58.399 --> 00:31:00.310
gone looking for coal. He thinks it's


00:31:00.320 --> 00:31:02.149
going to help him have uh better


00:31:02.159 --> 00:31:05.590
communications with his wife. Oh. Uh,


00:31:05.600 --> 00:31:07.269
and from me, Andrew Dunley, thanks for


00:31:07.279 --> 00:31:08.710
your company. We'll see you on the next


00:31:08.720 --> 00:31:10.789
episode of Space Nuts. Bye-bye.


00:31:10.799 --> 00:31:11.750
>> Space Nuts.


00:31:11.760 --> 00:31:13.830
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00:31:16.159 --> 00:31:19.110
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