Black Holes, Gravity Theories & the Quest for Planet Nine | Space Nuts: Astronomy Insights &...

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Language: en

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Hi there. Thanks for joining us. This is


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a Q&A edition of Space Nuts. My name is


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Andrew Dunley. It's good to have your


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company. Uh today, uh we will be hearing


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questions about uh the universe being


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inside a black hole. In fact, I think


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they're suggesting it was born in a


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black hole and is stuck in there and how


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do we get out? Uh we'll also be looking


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at a new gravity theory uh theory,


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Hubble tension. Not surprisingly,


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questions about planet 9 with the most


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recent announcement of something being


00:00:30.720 --> 00:00:34.630
out there that's not planet 9 and um


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getting gravity assistance to max delta


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v. Those are all the questions coming up


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on this episode of Space Nuts. 15


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seconds. Guidance is internal. 10 9


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ignition sequence start. Space nuts. 5 4


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3 2 1 2 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1 Space Nuts.


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Astronauts report. It feels good. And


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Fred Watson is with us again to solve


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all these little riddles. Hello, Fred.


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Hello, Andrew. Nice to um help me solve


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the riddles.


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I don't know anything.


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That's why I bring you along. Oh, good.


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Well, I might like to be of assistance.


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Makes it so much more interesting when


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there's two people talking. Monologues


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are just so boring, don't you reckon?


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Uh,


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unless unless it's a super interesting


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person person like yourself. Right. No,


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I'm I'm capable of boring the pants off


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people as uh people have assured me


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before. So, that's all


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right. So, we've got a lot to get


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through and uh it's it's even trickier


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this week because we do have a technical


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uh issue which means you are going to


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have to


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lipre. Okay.


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Uh, so right, I'll do my best. We'll see


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how that goes. Wondering where the lips


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are going to be. That's the only thing.


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Yes. Yes. Well, the first set of lips


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come from Paul. So, let's hear his


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question. Good day, Fred, Andrew, Jonty,


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Heidi, whoever happens to be at the


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helm. Uh, this is Paul from sunny Bris


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Vegas. Uh, thanks for doing a great job


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as always. I have a quick question about


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surprise black holes. Um, Dr. Shamir put


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out a paper recently


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about his ideas regarding the fact that


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some galaxies are spinning one way and a


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lot of them most of them the other way.


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And another fellow chipped in a Nicadan


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Poploski from uh New Haven suggested


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that maybe that was because our universe


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was born inside a black hole. If that is


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true, how the heck did we get out? And


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if we didn't get out and we're still


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inside, then how is that possible given


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that, you know, anything that goes


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inside a black hole uh is spaghettified


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according to our current thinking and


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therefore incoherent? I mean, I know I'm


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incoherent, but you know what I'm


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talking about when it comes to ordinary


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barionic matter. Uh, love to get your


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thoughts on


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this. Anyway, uh, keep up the good work


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and catch us later. Cheers. Thank you,


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Paul, and hope all is well. In Brisbane,


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Paul is asking about the universe being


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born inside a black hole. How do we get


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out and why don't we get spaghettified


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as a consequence of that amongst many


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other things, but uh that was the basis


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of the question. So, yes. So, as as


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you've uh already mentioned, I didn't


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hear any of Paul's question there. Not


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at all. However, I did uh listen to it


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yesterday, so I've got a bit of an idea


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of what Paul was suggesting. the fact


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that um we have uh new observations


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which uh have been made with the James


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Web Space Telescope


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uh that um are intriguing in the sense


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that uh these scientists uh and they um


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are basically uh mostly located at


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Kansas State


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University. Uh that the rotation of


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galaxies in the deep universe isn't


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random. uh you'd expect, you know,


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galaxies to be rotating


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in they can only go one way or the


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other, but you would expect an equal


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balance of rotations. Uh and uh what we


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find uh or what these scientists find at


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Kansas State University using the James


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Web Space Telescope Advanced Deep


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Extragalactic Survey or JADES um what


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they find is out of 263 galaxies


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um which you know which sort of give


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away their rotation because we know that


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spiral arms nearly always trail. There's


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at least one galaxy where the spiral


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arms are leading, but most of them


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trail. And what they find that out of


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these 263 galaxies, about 2/3 of them


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are going clockwise and the rest are


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going anticlockwise. And that is an


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imbalance. That's a statistically


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significant imbalance. Uh that suggests


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that something's going on that we don't


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understand. And that leads to the


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possibility that perhaps the universe


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itself is


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rotating. Um, and I've seen other um,


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papers on this topic that suggest that


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maybe the universe rotates once in every


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500 billion years. That's one figure


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that I've seen. Now, um, a consequence


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of the rotating universe, and I think


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this is where Paul's question went. I'm


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trying to remember having heard it


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yesterday. Uh is that uh it it lends


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some weight to the idea that the


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universe is inside a black hole. Uh in


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other words, that there is an event


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horizon at some huge distance from where


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we are. Uh and we are all within this


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black


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hole. Um what does that mean for


00:06:05.039 --> 00:06:07.830
observational cosmology? I suspect it's


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going to be very difficult for us to


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confirm that ever. Uh and I think um you


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know this is speculative research. It's


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important research because you you you


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want to know um how some of these things


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interact. And I might just mention and I


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think we've discussed this before Andrew


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on space notes that the idea of a


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rotating universe actually relieves some


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of the issues uh that we find uh in


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observing the universe. One of them is


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the Hubble tension and I know there's a


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question coming up about that. Um so a


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rotating universe has certainly


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attractive possibilities but we


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absolutely don't know whether it is a


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rotating universe and indeed whether


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that means that we're inside a black


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hole. Uh so what I was going to say was


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the idea of a universe within a black


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hole is akin to the idea of multiverses.


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The the idea that um um multiple


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universes exist and we are just one of


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them. Uh I'm not really I don't think


00:07:05.599 --> 00:07:07.510
giving a sensible answer to Paul's


00:07:07.520 --> 00:07:08.950
question partly because I couldn't hear


00:07:08.960 --> 00:07:11.589
it but I think he was basically asking


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you know what happens how does it


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happen? Uh how are we not being


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spaghettified? That's because uh I can


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tell you the answer to that. uh we're


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we're not in a region um of the black


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hole where the um


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gravitational


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gravitational pull is changing very very


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rapidly with space and that's what makes


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a black hole spaghettify you. You go


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from one point to another and your


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gravitational pull is very different. So


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your head feels a different gravity from


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your feet and you get spaghettified.


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We're not in a in a place where that


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would be happening if we were inside a


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black hole. But, you know, all bets are


00:07:50.639 --> 00:07:53.270
off because inside a black hole, uh,


00:07:53.280 --> 00:07:54.950
there might we we're in a different


00:07:54.960 --> 00:07:56.710
dimensional space. A black hole is a


00:07:56.720 --> 00:07:58.950
singularity. Are we in a singularity? A


00:07:58.960 --> 00:08:01.070
singularity is a point with no


00:08:01.080 --> 00:08:03.510
dimensions. Work that one out. So, we'd


00:08:03.520 --> 00:08:05.270
have to be almost in a different


00:08:05.280 --> 00:08:07.510
dimensional space. So, it's a


00:08:07.520 --> 00:08:10.230
interesting question. um to which I


00:08:10.240 --> 00:08:12.469
don't think anybody knows the answer,


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but there are a few people who are


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probably thinking through it a lot more


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clearly than I am. Well, Paul mentioned


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a physicist by the name of Nicodemus.


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Uh he he's one that's put this theory


00:08:25.680 --> 00:08:28.469
forward that um our observable


00:08:28.479 --> 00:08:30.550
observable universe is not just a part


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of a larger universe, but is in fact the


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interior of a black hole within a larger


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context. Yes. So you've got extra


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dimensions somewhere out there uh within


00:08:39.919 --> 00:08:44.790
which we exist. Uh that's right. It's um


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you know I I Yes. I remember um checking


00:08:47.040 --> 00:08:49.269
out the the researchers that that Paul


00:08:49.279 --> 00:08:51.670
mentioned yesterday when I looked at it.


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Uh it's interesting stuff. Yeah. What do


00:08:54.640 --> 00:08:56.710
you think personally? I mean is there


00:08:56.720 --> 00:09:00.310
any possibility that this could be real?


00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:03.350
Um it to me it's on the same level as


00:09:03.360 --> 00:09:06.710
does heaven exist? uh you know it's it's


00:09:06.720 --> 00:09:09.910
questions to which we really can't find


00:09:09.920 --> 00:09:12.550
answers. We can theorize, we can


00:09:12.560 --> 00:09:14.710
conjecture, we can speculate, we can


00:09:14.720 --> 00:09:17.030
write equations down and probably some


00:09:17.040 --> 00:09:18.630
of the equations do support the idea


00:09:18.640 --> 00:09:20.470
that we're within a within an event


00:09:20.480 --> 00:09:22.310
horizon. It goes back a very long way.


00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:26.070
It's not a new idea at all. Um but um I


00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:28.230
mean people have put new numbers on it I


00:09:28.240 --> 00:09:30.470
think and new observations. I think we


00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:32.550
we watch this space. Next time this


00:09:32.560 --> 00:09:33.990
question comes up, I might be able to


00:09:34.000 --> 00:09:35.430
hear it properly and might be able to


00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:38.790
give a more cogent answer.


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Yes, indeed. I'll be working on that


00:09:40.560 --> 00:09:42.389
technicality. I don't I'm sure it's not


00:09:42.399 --> 00:09:43.829
your fault, Andrew. I know what these


00:09:43.839 --> 00:09:45.590
gremlins are like. We get them all the


00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:48.870
time. Yeah. I blame the equipment. Never


00:09:48.880 --> 00:09:51.509
ever though. Never the police. That's


00:09:51.519 --> 00:09:53.910
right.


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Thank you, Paul. Hope we covered that


00:09:55.600 --> 00:09:57.990
adequately as we strive to do here on


00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:00.550
Space Nuts.


00:10:00.560 --> 00:10:02.389
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00:12:28.079 --> 00:12:30.389
security today. And don't forget the uh


00:12:30.399 --> 00:12:32.069
the code word spacen nuts at the


00:12:32.079 --> 00:12:35.550
checkout.


00:12:35.560 --> 00:12:37.350
nordvpn.com/spacenuts. Click get the


00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:39.430
deal and then have a look and see what


00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:43.430
suits you best. Now, back to the show.


00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:46.389
And I feel space nuts. Uh, our next


00:12:46.399 --> 00:12:49.030
question, Fred, comes from Casey in


00:12:49.040 --> 00:12:51.990
Colorado. In fact, he has two. Could you


00:12:52.000 --> 00:12:54.790
please explain the new theory of gravity


00:12:54.800 --> 00:12:57.829
in simple terms? Does it uh have any


00:12:57.839 --> 00:13:00.230
merit? And could you please explain


00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:02.389
Hubble tension and what it means for our


00:13:02.399 --> 00:13:05.310
understanding of the universe?


00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:09.190
Yes. Uh, so that's the answer. The


00:13:09.200 --> 00:13:12.470
answer is yes. Yes, I can.


00:13:12.480 --> 00:13:14.310
um the new theory of gravity which I


00:13:14.320 --> 00:13:16.790
like very much um this comes from


00:13:16.800 --> 00:13:19.110
scientists in Finland which is place I


00:13:19.120 --> 00:13:23.269
like very much as well um and it's what


00:13:23.279 --> 00:13:27.910
they've done you know they've taken um a


00:13:27.920 --> 00:13:28.750
step


00:13:28.760 --> 00:13:32.629
forward and and I'm assuming this is the


00:13:32.639 --> 00:13:36.949
uh this is indeed the um the uh the new


00:13:36.959 --> 00:13:39.190
theory that case is speaking about


00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:41.430
because we get nearly one every week a


00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:43.110
new theory in gravity but this is the


00:13:43.120 --> 00:13:46.470
latest one um it's uh as I said it's


00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:50.389
from uh it's from Finnish scientists uh


00:13:50.399 --> 00:13:53.389
at Alto University


00:13:53.399 --> 00:13:58.069
um so it's what they've done is what


00:13:58.079 --> 00:14:00.790
Einstein tried to do for the last for 30


00:14:00.800 --> 00:14:05.189
years of his life uh which is to unify


00:14:05.199 --> 00:14:08.870
quantum field theory and relativity


00:14:08.880 --> 00:14:11.990
uh and that's an issue because uh they


00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:14.949
are incompatible at the levels that we


00:14:14.959 --> 00:14:19.670
try and look at them now. Um and so uh


00:14:19.680 --> 00:14:22.389
to bring a quantum theory of gravity


00:14:22.399 --> 00:14:26.150
into being is a big step. So um what do


00:14:26.160 --> 00:14:28.550
I mean by bringing a theory into being?


00:14:28.560 --> 00:14:31.110
Well, we know that there are four


00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:34.389
fundamental forces in nature. Uh the


00:14:34.399 --> 00:14:37.310
strong and weak nuclear forces,


00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:39.910
electromagnetism and gravity. And the


00:14:39.920 --> 00:14:43.389
first three of those have very very


00:14:43.399 --> 00:14:46.550
wellestablished and uh well understood


00:14:46.560 --> 00:14:49.269
quantum theories. Um we for example we


00:14:49.279 --> 00:14:51.350
know that electromagnetism is propagated


00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:53.110
by photons. We talk about it all the


00:14:53.120 --> 00:14:55.910
time. So the suspicion is that gravity


00:14:55.920 --> 00:14:58.389
is propagated by gravitons but so far


00:14:58.399 --> 00:15:00.310
there's been no theory of what gravitons


00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:02.550
might be like. So what these scientists


00:15:02.560 --> 00:15:06.389
have done have developed a new theory a


00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:08.790
new quantum theory of gravity. Uh and


00:15:08.800 --> 00:15:10.790
I'm I'm actually going to once again uh


00:15:10.800 --> 00:15:13.430
quote from fizz.org. Uh very nice


00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:17.350
account of this um uh which is actually


00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:19.189
I think it is part of the press release


00:15:19.199 --> 00:15:21.910
from Alto University in Finland. So I'm


00:15:21.920 --> 00:15:24.710
quoting the university. Um, researchers


00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:26.629
at Alto University have developed a new


00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:28.310
theory, quantum theory of gravity, which


00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:30.990
describes gravity in a way that is


00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:33.430
compatible with the standard model of


00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:35.670
particle physics, opening the door to an


00:15:35.680 --> 00:15:37.110
improved understanding of how the


00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:41.030
universe began. While the world of uh


00:15:41.040 --> 00:15:43.350
quant theoretical physics may seem


00:15:43.360 --> 00:15:45.350
remote from applicable tech, the


00:15:45.360 --> 00:15:46.710
findings are remarkable. Modern


00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:48.629
technologies built on such fundamental


00:15:48.639 --> 00:15:50.550
advances. For example, the GPS in your


00:15:50.560 --> 00:15:52.710
smartphone works thanks to Einstein's


00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:55.430
theory of gravity. Uh and then uh the


00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:58.069
the article goes on to describe the


00:15:58.079 --> 00:16:00.790
theory. It's published in uh research


00:16:00.800 --> 00:16:05.110
reports on progress in physics. Um and


00:16:05.120 --> 00:16:06.870
this is the quote that I wanted to make.


00:16:06.880 --> 00:16:08.870
This comes from the uh lead author of


00:16:08.880 --> 00:16:13.310
the paper. Uh, and um


00:16:13.320 --> 00:16:16.430
um basically they


00:16:16.440 --> 00:16:19.150
um they the they


00:16:19.160 --> 00:16:21.590
the they've got lovely Finnish names.


00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:23.590
That's why I'm stumbling. It's Miko


00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:26.310
Partinan who's the uh who's the um lead


00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:31.430
author. Uh and the quote is as follows.


00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:33.430
And and this is this kind of puts it


00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:36.150
into perspective. If that's the big


00:16:36.160 --> 00:16:39.030
word, if this turns out to lead to a


00:16:39.040 --> 00:16:41.110
complete quantum field theory of


00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:43.350
gravity, then eventually it will give


00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:45.350
answers to the very difficult problems


00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:47.670
of understanding singularities in black


00:16:47.680 --> 00:16:51.269
hole, black holes and the big bang. A


00:16:51.279 --> 00:16:54.230
theory uh that coherently describes all


00:16:54.240 --> 00:16:56.069
fundamental forces of nature is often


00:16:56.079 --> 00:16:58.710
called the theory of everything. Uh some


00:16:58.720 --> 00:17:00.949
fundamental questions of physics still


00:17:00.959 --> 00:17:02.550
remain unanswered. For example, the


00:17:02.560 --> 00:17:04.390
present theories do not yet explain why


00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:06.069
there is more matter than antimatter in


00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:08.789
the observable universe. Uh and they


00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:10.470
what they've done is they've developed


00:17:10.480 --> 00:17:12.230
something called a a gauge theory. And


00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:13.909
gauge theories are a particular kind of


00:17:13.919 --> 00:17:15.829
theory in about the way particles


00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:18.630
interact with each other through a field


00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:21.110
like the Higs field and the Higs Bzon.


00:17:21.120 --> 00:17:25.750
Um so uh it's a basically a very nice uh


00:17:25.760 --> 00:17:27.909
a very nice account. Uh I won't read


00:17:27.919 --> 00:17:29.750
anymore because the you know gauge


00:17:29.760 --> 00:17:31.750
theories got symmetries and things of


00:17:31.760 --> 00:17:33.310
that sort.


00:17:33.320 --> 00:17:37.830
Um it's um a nice account. I recommend


00:17:37.840 --> 00:17:40.549
people have a look at the fizz.org uh


00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:44.870
paper uh sorry the f.org article Casey


00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:46.390
I'd send you to that as well to have a


00:17:46.400 --> 00:17:48.390
look. It's a very nice account of what's


00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:50.549
happening. You may end up like me


00:17:50.559 --> 00:17:52.070
thinking I really need to know a bit


00:17:52.080 --> 00:17:53.750
more about gauge theory before I can


00:17:53.760 --> 00:17:56.870
understand this. Uh but uh nevertheless,


00:17:56.880 --> 00:17:58.789
you'll get um a good idea of what's


00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:01.190
going on, I think.


00:18:01.200 --> 00:18:04.549
Okay. Now, Casey also wanted you to


00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:06.310
explain if you could Hubble tension.


00:18:06.320 --> 00:18:08.470
Yeah, that that's an easier one. And uh


00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:10.630
we as we've spoken about that's good. As


00:18:10.640 --> 00:18:13.270
we've spoken about today, uh that's one


00:18:13.280 --> 00:18:14.630
of the things we might get rid of. Yes,


00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:16.070
Hubble tension is a lot easier than


00:18:16.080 --> 00:18:18.470
gauge theory. Um and what it amounts to


00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:22.630
is we've got two ways of calculating the


00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:24.830
current expansion of the


00:18:24.840 --> 00:18:28.549
universe. Uh one is by looking at


00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:32.789
galaxies in our vicinity uh and looking


00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:35.270
at the rate at which they are speeding


00:18:35.280 --> 00:18:37.350
away from us. They go they're moving


00:18:37.360 --> 00:18:39.510
away from us faster as their distance


00:18:39.520 --> 00:18:41.350
increases. This is exactly the discovery


00:18:41.360 --> 00:18:44.230
that Hubble made in 1929.


00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:46.230
And uh gives us something we call the


00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:48.630
Hubble constant which is just the rate


00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:50.870
of expansion of the universe today. We


00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:52.789
call it hn


00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:56.230
um Hubble zero which is the expansion


00:18:56.240 --> 00:18:59.669
rate today. Now you can also get an idea


00:18:59.679 --> 00:19:02.230
of that or a measurement of it from the


00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:04.470
cosmic microwave background radiation.


00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:07.510
And that to recap is the flash of the


00:19:07.520 --> 00:19:09.270
big bang. We're looking back so far in


00:19:09.280 --> 00:19:10.630
time. We're seeing back to a time


00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:12.710
380,000 years after the Big Bang when


00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:14.070
the universe was still opaque and


00:19:14.080 --> 00:19:16.230
glowing brightly. So, we see this wall


00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:18.390
of radiation which is now in the


00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:21.350
microwave region of the spectrum. Uh,


00:19:21.360 --> 00:19:24.789
and it's peppered with a pattern of


00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:29.270
warmer and cooler places. Uh, and those


00:19:29.280 --> 00:19:31.430
uh zones of higher and lower


00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:33.110
temperature, and it's only by a tiny


00:19:33.120 --> 00:19:35.909
fraction, uh, they correspond to the


00:19:35.919 --> 00:19:39.110
structure in that fireball. Um in fact


00:19:39.120 --> 00:19:41.190
they're that it's caused by sound waves


00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:42.230
moving through it. They're called


00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:44.950
barionic acoustic oscillations. And we


00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:47.029
can by measuring the properties of the


00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:49.430
that peppering of warmer and cooler


00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:52.710
regions we can actually work out what


00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:55.510
the expansion of the universe is today.


00:19:55.520 --> 00:19:57.590
And it turns out that the two figures


00:19:57.600 --> 00:20:02.029
are different um by something like four


00:20:02.039 --> 00:20:05.830
5%. And that in modern terms is big


00:20:05.840 --> 00:20:08.230
enough to worry about. It's not just an


00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:10.470
error of measurement. These are these


00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:12.830
have got fairly tight limits on the


00:20:12.840 --> 00:20:14.789
uncertainties, but they're different.


00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:17.150
And that is the Hubble


00:20:17.160 --> 00:20:20.110
tension. But didn't they rec


00:20:20.120 --> 00:20:22.630
recently release a paper that suggested


00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:25.350
that the variations are actually within


00:20:25.360 --> 00:20:28.510
a normal range that this


00:20:28.520 --> 00:20:32.230
this these two figures that don't match


00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:34.390
are close enough? Well, yes. Didn't we


00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:36.230
talk? We did. Um, some people have


00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:38.149
suggested that that it is that it is


00:20:38.159 --> 00:20:40.190
actually within the experimental


00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:42.549
uncertainty, but it's still seen as a


00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:43.830
tension. They could they should be


00:20:43.840 --> 00:20:46.630
nearer than what they are.


00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:49.350
Yeah. Okay. Very, very interesting.


00:20:49.360 --> 00:20:50.950
Casey, thanks for both your questions.


00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:52.789
And no, you haven't spammed us. Two


00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:54.909
questions doesn't equal


00:20:54.919 --> 00:20:56.950
spam. There's probably a definition


00:20:56.960 --> 00:20:59.110
somewhere online that says how many how


00:20:59.120 --> 00:21:02.230
many emails become spam. You're well


00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:04.549
well outside that tolerance. So, no


00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:07.830
problem there. This is Space Nuts Q&A


00:21:07.840 --> 00:21:09.990
edition with Andrew Dunley and Professor


00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:13.750
Fred Watson.


00:21:13.760 --> 00:21:16.789
Roger, you're here. Also, Space Nuts.


00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:19.830
Okay, Fred, let's uh move on to our next


00:21:19.840 --> 00:21:21.750
question. It's an audio question, so you


00:21:21.760 --> 00:21:24.470
won't be able to hear it, but it comes


00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:28.789
from Simon. Hi, it's uh Simon from Vasey


00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:31.590
in uh New South Wales here. Uh my


00:21:31.600 --> 00:21:34.070
questions around uh the search for


00:21:34.080 --> 00:21:35.390
planet


00:21:35.400 --> 00:21:39.190
9. Uh other exoplanets uh few have been


00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:42.390
found using radial velocity method. Is


00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:45.510
that something we could do with the sun?


00:21:45.520 --> 00:21:49.110
Um, I guess planet 9 being so far out


00:21:49.120 --> 00:21:51.230
probably wouldn't have much


00:21:51.240 --> 00:21:53.909
influence, but we would have so much


00:21:53.919 --> 00:21:58.549
data on the sun as well um that it might


00:21:58.559 --> 00:22:01.590
be easy to sus out. Anyway, that's uh


00:22:01.600 --> 00:22:05.190
that's my question.


00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:07.510
Thank you, Simon. Good to hear from you.


00:22:07.520 --> 00:22:09.430
Hope all is well in Vasey in New South


00:22:09.440 --> 00:22:12.149
Wales. Uh he's asking in the search for


00:22:12.159 --> 00:22:15.510
planet 9 um we we've used the radial


00:22:15.520 --> 00:22:18.549
velocity method uh in the past to find


00:22:18.559 --> 00:22:22.310
other objects uh could we use the sun in


00:22:22.320 --> 00:22:24.789
the search for planet 9. Yeah, and it's


00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:27.190
a great question. Uh, and very well


00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:29.350
posed, Simon. Uh, I did actually manage


00:22:29.360 --> 00:22:31.750
to hear that through my own um


00:22:31.760 --> 00:22:33.909
recording, which I found and listened


00:22:33.919 --> 00:22:36.510
back to. So, I know what Simon


00:22:36.520 --> 00:22:41.029
asked. And what he's saying is that we


00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:42.950
know that when we look for exoplanets,


00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:45.750
planets around other stars, what we look


00:22:45.760 --> 00:22:48.549
for is the change in position of the


00:22:48.559 --> 00:22:51.110
star itself as it's pulled one way and


00:22:51.120 --> 00:22:52.789
another by the planet orbiting around


00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:53.830
it.


00:22:53.840 --> 00:22:58.470
And yes indeed the solar system uh has


00:22:58.480 --> 00:23:00.950
such an effect. So Jupiter principally


00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:03.110
is the the main planet that's pulling


00:23:03.120 --> 00:23:05.750
the pulling the sun's center one way or


00:23:05.760 --> 00:23:08.390
the other. Uh but the other planets all


00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:12.390
intervene as well. And so what we have


00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:14.149
is something that's called the solar


00:23:14.159 --> 00:23:17.430
systems barry center, the center of mass


00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:19.990
of the solar system. And that moves as


00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:21.630
the planets wander


00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:26.549
around. And um we've exactly as um as


00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:30.470
Simon says, we've managed to work out


00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:33.590
the position of the Barry center very


00:23:33.600 --> 00:23:36.310
very accurately. Uh partly because we


00:23:36.320 --> 00:23:38.390
know where the planets are and things of


00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:39.950
that sort.


00:23:39.960 --> 00:23:44.710
Now, Simon's question is actually


00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:47.590
exactly the same as a question that I


00:23:47.600 --> 00:23:50.230
found on Stack Exchange online. The


00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:53.830
question was can the paper narrowing the


00:23:53.840 --> 00:23:56.310
solar systems barry center to within 100


00:23:56.320 --> 00:24:00.950
meters help find planet 9? Uh so that's


00:24:00.960 --> 00:24:02.950
basically what Simon asked and the


00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:05.990
bottom line there's a long long set of


00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:08.470
calculations here which I won't go


00:24:08.480 --> 00:24:11.830
through but the answer is probably not.


00:24:11.840 --> 00:24:15.230
Um it's because the planet


00:24:15.240 --> 00:24:18.549
9 planet 9's influence on the solar


00:24:18.559 --> 00:24:20.870
systems barry center it's it's helped by


00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:22.390
the fact that planet 9's a long way


00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:26.310
away. Um um so it's got sort of leverage


00:24:26.320 --> 00:24:31.430
uh as it goes around. Um um the the the


00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:33.230
short answer


00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:37.029
is maybe we could do it, but we wouldn't


00:24:37.039 --> 00:24:39.990
be able to do it without hundreds if not


00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:42.870
thousands of years of precise data. And


00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:45.110
that's because planet 9 is probably


00:24:45.120 --> 00:24:47.350
orbiting the sun on that kind of time


00:24:47.360 --> 00:24:50.310
scale. And so you don't see any, you


00:24:50.320 --> 00:24:53.990
know, what you'd be looking for is um


00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:55.590
changes in the position of the Barry


00:24:55.600 --> 00:24:58.190
center which are not caused by the known


00:24:58.200 --> 00:25:01.269
planets, but it'll take you hundreds or


00:25:01.279 --> 00:25:03.190
thousands of years to see that because


00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:05.750
of the the great distance that planet 9


00:25:05.760 --> 00:25:09.029
is at. So the answer is probably not.


00:25:09.039 --> 00:25:10.789
But it's a great question and really


00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:12.630
nice thinking. I like Simon's thinking


00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:16.070
there. Yeah. Yeah. It's quite astute.


00:25:16.080 --> 00:25:18.870
The other factor that comes into play


00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:21.990
here is the new theory that planet 9


00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:24.070
doesn't exist because there's another


00:25:24.080 --> 00:25:25.950
planet even further


00:25:25.960 --> 00:25:29.269
out that uh has only just been sort of


00:25:29.279 --> 00:25:32.149
put into a um into a paper and open for


00:25:32.159 --> 00:25:34.310
discussion. So we only talked about that


00:25:34.320 --> 00:25:37.269
last week. So the search for planet 9


00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:40.710
might be a fororn hope anyway. Yeah. U


00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:42.870
because it probably according to the new


00:25:42.880 --> 00:25:44.549
theory doesn't that's correct. Yeah.


00:25:44.559 --> 00:25:46.710
Now, the new theory is based more on


00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:49.070
observations than theory because it's


00:25:49.080 --> 00:25:51.669
two observations separated by something


00:25:51.679 --> 00:25:53.110
like 30 years that seem to show


00:25:53.120 --> 00:25:54.630
something moving very slowly in the


00:25:54.640 --> 00:25:55.870
outer solar


00:25:55.880 --> 00:25:58.070
system. You can bet your life we'll do


00:25:58.080 --> 00:26:01.669
more observing of that over uh coming


00:26:01.679 --> 00:26:04.310
decades uh and maybe that will turn out


00:26:04.320 --> 00:26:05.750
to be what I think is being called


00:26:05.760 --> 00:26:07.350
planet 8 and a half at the moment


00:26:07.360 --> 00:26:09.029
because nobody really knows whether it's


00:26:09.039 --> 00:26:11.669
there or not. But as you said, if that


00:26:11.679 --> 00:26:14.149
is real, it rules out planet 9. the two


00:26:14.159 --> 00:26:16.710
colors exist together.


00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:18.710
Exactly. Right. All right. There you go,


00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:21.909
Simon. Um, we'll see where that ends up,


00:26:21.919 --> 00:26:24.470
but it might take a while. Our final


00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:27.990
question comes from Joe in Ola in


00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:29.430
Washington. I hope I pronounced that


00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:31.750
correctly. Is there an upper limit to


00:26:31.760 --> 00:26:34.630
how much delta V uh that can be


00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:36.549
practically generated by gravitational


00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:39.149
assists? Is it possible to develop


00:26:39.159 --> 00:26:41.510
sufficient delta V for timely


00:26:41.520 --> 00:26:43.510
interstellar travel by winding up a


00:26:43.520 --> 00:26:45.190
probe in our solar system before


00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:48.710
launching it uh to a nearby star? Uh


00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:50.710
thanks for all that you do. Cheers, Joe.


00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:53.350
Now, delta V, that is the impulse per


00:26:53.360 --> 00:26:57.590
unit of spacecraft mass. Yes. Well, it's


00:26:57.600 --> 00:26:59.710
basically the change in


00:26:59.720 --> 00:27:02.710
velocity. Um yes. So impulse is the


00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:05.269
that's the way people talk about these


00:27:05.279 --> 00:27:06.950
delta V's in this in the rocket


00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:09.669
industry. It's all rocket science or is


00:27:09.679 --> 00:27:12.870
it anyway delta V uh I think in Joe's


00:27:12.880 --> 00:27:16.070
context here is how much velocity


00:27:16.080 --> 00:27:18.870
increase you can get from a gravity


00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:22.149
assist from a slingshot. Uh and the


00:27:22.159 --> 00:27:24.710
answer is probably no. um in terms of


00:27:24.720 --> 00:27:27.269
trying to wind up you know the speed of


00:27:27.279 --> 00:27:30.070
things so that you you know you hurl


00:27:30.080 --> 00:27:33.350
something out of the solar system at uh


00:27:33.360 --> 00:27:34.789
10th the speed of light or something


00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:38.390
like that. Um the reading that I've done


00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:41.110
on this and I did check it out uh seems


00:27:41.120 --> 00:27:41.870
to


00:27:41.880 --> 00:27:45.630
suggest excuse me that um we are


00:27:45.640 --> 00:27:47.870
probably


00:27:47.880 --> 00:27:52.149
limited to um the sorts of velocities


00:27:52.159 --> 00:27:55.110
that we see among the planets of the


00:27:55.120 --> 00:27:57.750
solar system. Now remember the earth is


00:27:57.760 --> 00:28:01.669
orbiting the the sun at 30 kilometers/s


00:28:01.679 --> 00:28:05.190
um and um those velocities get less as


00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:07.350
you get farther away from the sun. And


00:28:07.360 --> 00:28:09.110
that's part of the equation with a


00:28:09.120 --> 00:28:10.630
slingshot because what you're trying to


00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:12.549
do is steal some momentum from the


00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:15.029
planet and give it to the spacecraft.


00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:18.149
And so there are upper limits uh on what


00:28:18.159 --> 00:28:20.950
sort of velocity change you can get. It


00:28:20.960 --> 00:28:22.549
depends on how close you go to the


00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:23.909
planet, depends whether the planet's got


00:28:23.919 --> 00:28:25.990
an atmosphere or not. uh depends on the


00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:28.470
angle that you come in. Um the figure


00:28:28.480 --> 00:28:31.029
that I've seen quoted as a maximum for


00:28:31.039 --> 00:28:32.789
Jupiter, which is the most effective


00:28:32.799 --> 00:28:34.310
planet for this sort of thing, being the


00:28:34.320 --> 00:28:35.909
by far the most massive planet in the


00:28:35.919 --> 00:28:38.149
solar system, is a change of 40


00:28:38.159 --> 00:28:40.070
kilometers/s.


00:28:40.080 --> 00:28:43.430
Um, now that's very good if you're, you


00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:44.789
know, trying to get something out to the


00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:47.110
outer solar system, but it's not going


00:28:47.120 --> 00:28:49.909
to help you getting things to other


00:28:49.919 --> 00:28:52.710
planets, especially when you think, you


00:28:52.720 --> 00:28:56.549
know, if you give a a planet, sorry, a


00:28:56.559 --> 00:28:59.950
spacecraft an impulse a delta V of 40


00:28:59.960 --> 00:29:02.269
kilometers/s by interacting with


00:29:02.279 --> 00:29:05.029
Jupiter. You've got to then find another


00:29:05.039 --> 00:29:07.830
planet that's that's going to give it


00:29:07.840 --> 00:29:09.590
even more. But the other planets are all


00:29:09.600 --> 00:29:12.630
moving slower than that. So, uh, that


00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:14.630
the change in momentum is a lot harder


00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:17.510
to get. Uh, so, so I think the answer is


00:29:17.520 --> 00:29:19.590
it's a very nice idea, you know, as Joe


00:29:19.600 --> 00:29:21.269
suggests, winding up by all these


00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:23.110
gravitational interactions. You can only


00:29:23.120 --> 00:29:25.510
do it within limits. You're not going to


00:29:25.520 --> 00:29:27.990
be able to get, you know, like 100,000


00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:30.149
kilometers/s or something like that from


00:29:30.159 --> 00:29:32.789
doing that. Yeah. I I suppose you could


00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:34.950
equate it to using a slingshot or a


00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:36.789
Shanghai. there's there's only so much


00:29:36.799 --> 00:29:39.029
tension you can put in into the the


00:29:39.039 --> 00:29:41.510
rubber band to say to fire the rock and


00:29:41.520 --> 00:29:42.950
you're not going to be able to fire the


00:29:42.960 --> 00:29:46.149
rock any faster than the maximum amount


00:29:46.159 --> 00:29:48.549
of storage the rubber band can hold and


00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:50.870
I I'm guessing it's the same for yes


00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:53.029
there's a yeah there's a limited amount


00:29:53.039 --> 00:29:55.029
of energy that you can get from from a


00:29:55.039 --> 00:29:58.549
slingshot that's right yeah nice idea


00:29:58.559 --> 00:30:01.029
although it's it's been very effective


00:30:01.039 --> 00:30:03.430
as you said for sending things to the


00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:05.269
outer solar system the the Voyager


00:30:05.279 --> 00:30:09.350
probes particularly uh used um the


00:30:09.360 --> 00:30:12.470
slingshot effect um several times to to


00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:14.789
to to get to the outer solar system


00:30:14.799 --> 00:30:16.389
because they didn't have the fuel to do


00:30:16.399 --> 00:30:20.789
it. So they figured out through a um an


00:30:20.799 --> 00:30:23.110
alignment of the planets that they could


00:30:23.120 --> 00:30:26.230
they could get out there just by using


00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:28.389
the um the rotation of the planets or


00:30:28.399 --> 00:30:33.430
the um the process that uh that uh Joe's


00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:35.750
been talking about. So, um, yeah, it it


00:30:35.760 --> 00:30:38.750
does work quite effectively for


00:30:38.760 --> 00:30:42.149
slower slower speeds, but uh, yeah, it


00:30:42.159 --> 00:30:44.950
interstellar probably beyond us in that


00:30:44.960 --> 00:30:47.350
regard. Yeah, probably the the the


00:30:47.360 --> 00:30:49.750
lasers and, um, you know, in a solar


00:30:49.760 --> 00:30:51.830
sail or a light sail might be a better


00:30:51.840 --> 00:30:54.070
bet, but even that's beyond our


00:30:54.080 --> 00:30:57.269
technology at the moment.


00:30:57.279 --> 00:30:59.190
Uh, probably won't be for long, though.


00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:01.990
I think they'll develop that and and get


00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:03.990
some spacecraft heading out towards the


00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:07.350
Alpha Centator sector and um anyway,


00:31:07.360 --> 00:31:09.669
that remains to be seen. Uh but that


00:31:09.679 --> 00:31:11.269
would still be a pretty slow mission in


00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:14.070
the scheme of things. But um yeah, great


00:31:14.080 --> 00:31:15.990
question, Joe. Thanks for sending it in.


00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:18.789
And if you'd like to send us a question,


00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:21.029
uh you can do that uh through our


00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:22.269
website,


00:31:22.279 --> 00:31:24.789
spacenutspodcast.com. Spacenuts.io.


00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:27.510
Click on the AMA link at the top and you


00:31:27.520 --> 00:31:30.149
can send us text and audio questions.


00:31:30.159 --> 00:31:31.830
And don't forget to tell us who you are


00:31:31.840 --> 00:31:33.110
and where you're from. We love to know


00:31:33.120 --> 00:31:34.710
that sort of stuff so that we can send


00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:37.110
the boys around. Uh or we could send


00:31:37.120 --> 00:31:38.789
Hugh around because he can't be with us


00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:40.630
today. So he must be visiting one of you


00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:43.909
guys um with his with his um you know


00:31:43.919 --> 00:31:46.950
balaclava on maybe. Yeah. Um thank you


00:31:46.960 --> 00:31:49.430
Fred as always. A pleasure Andrew as


00:31:49.440 --> 00:31:52.070
always. Good to talk and uh good to hear


00:31:52.080 --> 00:31:54.230
our listeners questions.


00:31:54.240 --> 00:31:56.789
It is. It is. All right. Well, catch you


00:31:56.799 --> 00:31:58.630
again real soon. Professor Fred Watson,


00:31:58.640 --> 00:32:00.310
astronomer at large. And from me, Andrew


00:32:00.320 --> 00:32:02.310
Dunley. Thanks for your company. See you


00:32:02.320 --> 00:32:04.310
on the next episode of Space Nuts. Bye


00:32:04.320 --> 00:32:07.029
for now. Space Nuts. You'll be listening


00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:10.549
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