Dec. 30, 2025
The Duality of Wicked: Unpacking Good and Evil in 'Wicked: For Good'
In this episode of *Movies First*, Chris and Jessica dive deep into the enchanting yet thought-provoking world of *Wicked: for Good*, exploring the transformative journey of villains into heroes and how the narrative challenges our understanding of good and evil. They discuss the revolutionary portrayal of power, truth, and justice, particularly through Michelle Yeoh's chilling role as Madame Morrible, who orchestrates a propaganda campaign that resonates with today's media landscape.
Listeners will be captivated by the hosts' analysis of Ariana Grande's performance as Glinda, highlighting her authentic evolution from a popularity-obsessed student to a character faced with moral dilemmas. The dynamic chemistry between Grande and Cynthia Erivo, who portrays Elphaba, adds depth to their contrasting paths, showcasing how shared histories can shape divergent choices.
Chris and Jessica emphasize the musical's technical achievements, particularly the tornado sequence as a metaphor for societal upheaval driven by fear and manipulation. They also explore the allegorical representation of marginalized voices through the innovative use of technology in the depiction of animals in Oz, enhancing the film's themes of power and resistance.
The hosts delve into the visual storytelling elements, like costume design, which reflects the power dynamics between Glinda and Elphaba, and the commentary provided by Jeff Goldblum's wizard character. They appreciate how director John M. Chu balances spectacular fantasy with complex ideas, making the film both entertaining and intellectually engaging.
With a score of 8 out of 10, this episode invites listeners to reflect on the evolving narratives of morality and the potential for more nuanced storytelling in the future, proving that entertainment can be both commercially successful and thought-provoking.
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To access the Movies First reviews archive visit our website at www.bitesz.com/podcast/movies-first
This episode includes AI-generated content.
WEBVTT
0
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.160
Chris: The transformation of villains into heroes
1
00:00:02.240 --> 00:00:05.240
has captivated audiences for generations. But
2
00:00:05.240 --> 00:00:07.200
what makes Wicked's exploration of good and
3
00:00:07.200 --> 00:00:09.800
evil so revolutionary is how it completely
4
00:00:09.800 --> 00:00:12.800
dismantles our assumptions about power, truth
5
00:00:12.800 --> 00:00:14.960
and justice in ways we never expected.
6
00:00:15.520 --> 00:00:18.280
Jessica: You know what's fascinating about that? The
7
00:00:18.280 --> 00:00:20.320
way this second part especially challenges
8
00:00:20.320 --> 00:00:22.440
our preconceptions about who gets to write
9
00:00:22.440 --> 00:00:22.720
history.
10
00:00:23.680 --> 00:00:26.080
Chris: Well, that's exactly what makes Michelle
11
00:00:26.080 --> 00:00:28.160
Yeoh's portrayal of Madame Morrible so
12
00:00:28.160 --> 00:00:30.600
chilling. She's essentially orchestrating
13
00:00:30.600 --> 00:00:33.400
this massive propaganda campaign that feels
14
00:00:33.400 --> 00:00:35.400
eerily relevant to our modern media
15
00:00:35.400 --> 00:00:37.800
landscape. The way she manipulates public
16
00:00:37.800 --> 00:00:39.960
perception reminds me of how social movements
17
00:00:40.120 --> 00:00:41.960
can be undermined through strategic
18
00:00:41.960 --> 00:00:42.520
messaging.
19
00:00:43.240 --> 00:00:45.600
Jessica: Hmm. And the whole concept of using
20
00:00:45.600 --> 00:00:48.400
Glinda's transportable bubble as this tool of
21
00:00:48.400 --> 00:00:50.760
mass manipulation, it's like a perfect
22
00:00:50.760 --> 00:00:52.760
metaphor for how social media can create
23
00:00:52.840 --> 00:00:55.410
these artificial Personas, don't you think?
24
00:00:56.370 --> 00:00:58.210
Chris: That's such an interesting parallel.
25
00:00:58.530 --> 00:01:00.930
And speaking of Glinda, let me tell you why
26
00:01:00.930 --> 00:01:03.250
Ariana Grande's performance is so crucial
27
00:01:03.250 --> 00:01:05.650
here. She brings this vulnerability
28
00:01:06.050 --> 00:01:08.250
to the role that makes Glinda's journey from
29
00:01:08.250 --> 00:01:10.930
popularity obsessed student to someone
30
00:01:10.930 --> 00:01:13.610
grappling with real moral choices feel
31
00:01:13.610 --> 00:01:14.690
completely authentic.
32
00:01:15.490 --> 00:01:17.530
Jessica: The chemistry between Grande and Cynthia
33
00:01:17.530 --> 00:01:20.410
Erivo is really something special. You can
34
00:01:20.410 --> 00:01:22.090
feel the weight of their shared history in
35
00:01:22.090 --> 00:01:23.090
every scene they share.
36
00:01:24.280 --> 00:01:25.920
Chris: You know what's really striking about their
37
00:01:25.920 --> 00:01:28.480
dynamic? The way it explores how two people
38
00:01:28.480 --> 00:01:30.840
can start from the same place but end up on
39
00:01:30.840 --> 00:01:33.760
completely different paths. Erivo brings this
40
00:01:33.760 --> 00:01:36.520
raw intensity to Elphaba that makes her
41
00:01:36.520 --> 00:01:38.880
choice to stand against corruption feel both
42
00:01:38.880 --> 00:01:41.880
heroic and tragically inevitable.
43
00:01:42.600 --> 00:01:45.160
Jessica: Well, that complexity really comes through in
44
00:01:45.160 --> 00:01:48.040
the musical numbers, doesn't it? Each song
45
00:01:48.040 --> 00:01:49.920
feels like it's advancing the story rather
46
00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:51.400
than just providing spectacle.
47
00:01:52.510 --> 00:01:54.950
Chris: Oh, exactly. And, uh, let me point out
48
00:01:54.950 --> 00:01:56.430
something about the technical achievements
49
00:01:56.430 --> 00:01:59.190
that really elevate this story. The special
50
00:01:59.190 --> 00:02:01.510
effects, particularly in that tornado
51
00:02:01.510 --> 00:02:03.950
sequence, aren't just impressive visually,
52
00:02:04.350 --> 00:02:06.710
they're serving as this perfect metaphor for
53
00:02:06.710 --> 00:02:09.230
how quickly society can be turned upside down
54
00:02:09.470 --> 00:02:11.070
by fear and manipulation.
55
00:02:11.790 --> 00:02:13.950
Jessica: And the way they handled the animals in Oz,
56
00:02:14.270 --> 00:02:16.030
it's like watching this allegory for
57
00:02:16.030 --> 00:02:17.870
marginalized voices come to life through
58
00:02:17.870 --> 00:02:18.910
cutting edge technology.
59
00:02:20.510 --> 00:02:22.990
Chris: That's such a crucial point. Um, um. Because
60
00:02:22.990 --> 00:02:25.350
every element of the production is working to
61
00:02:25.350 --> 00:02:27.790
deepen these themes of power and resistance.
62
00:02:28.350 --> 00:02:30.910
Even Jeff Goldblum's portrayal of the wizard
63
00:02:31.070 --> 00:02:33.230
adds this layer of commentary about how
64
00:02:33.230 --> 00:02:34.990
charisma can mask corruption.
65
00:02:35.790 --> 00:02:37.870
Jessica: Speaking of which, the costume design really
66
00:02:37.870 --> 00:02:39.990
tells its own story about power dynamics in
67
00:02:39.990 --> 00:02:40.910
Oz, doesn't it?
68
00:02:41.790 --> 00:02:43.870
Chris: Absolutely fascinating how they use those
69
00:02:43.870 --> 00:02:46.480
visual elements, like the way Glinda's
70
00:02:46.480 --> 00:02:48.600
increasingly elaborate outfits contrasts with
71
00:02:48.600 --> 00:02:51.560
Elphaba's practical darker attire tells
72
00:02:51.560 --> 00:02:53.800
us everything about their diverging paths.
73
00:02:54.200 --> 00:02:56.040
And when you consider how Marisa Bode's
74
00:02:56.040 --> 00:02:58.880
Nesteros fits into this visual language, it's
75
00:02:58.880 --> 00:03:01.319
like watching a masterclass in character
76
00:03:01.319 --> 00:03:02.680
development through design.
77
00:03:03.720 --> 00:03:05.280
Jessica: The way they tied everything together with
78
00:03:05.280 --> 00:03:07.240
the arrival of Dorothy and those iconic
79
00:03:07.240 --> 00:03:09.640
shoes. It's brilliant how they made such
80
00:03:09.640 --> 00:03:11.640
familiar elements feel completely fresh.
81
00:03:13.070 --> 00:03:15.190
Chris: You know what makes this work so well as a
82
00:03:15.190 --> 00:03:17.710
conclusion? Director John M M Chu
83
00:03:17.950 --> 00:03:19.950
has managed to create something that works on
84
00:03:19.950 --> 00:03:22.510
multiple levels. It's this spectacular
85
00:03:22.590 --> 00:03:25.230
fantasy musical that's also dealing with some
86
00:03:25.230 --> 00:03:27.630
really complex ideas about truth, justice and
87
00:03:27.630 --> 00:03:30.390
the nature of evil. The way they balance all
88
00:03:30.390 --> 00:03:32.590
these elements while still maintaining that
89
00:03:32.590 --> 00:03:34.750
PG rating is pretty remarkable.
90
00:03:35.950 --> 00:03:37.830
Jessica: So what do you think this says about how we
91
00:03:37.830 --> 00:03:39.470
tell stories about good and evil going
92
00:03:39.470 --> 00:03:39.790
forward?
93
00:03:41.050 --> 00:03:42.850
Chris: Well, I think it shows that audiences are
94
00:03:42.850 --> 00:03:45.090
ready for more nuanced explorations of
95
00:03:45.090 --> 00:03:48.010
morality. The success of this film proves
96
00:03:48.010 --> 00:03:49.930
that we can handle stories that challenge our
97
00:03:49.930 --> 00:03:51.930
assumptions about who's right and who's wrong
98
00:03:52.250 --> 00:03:54.290
while still delivering the kind of spectacle
99
00:03:54.290 --> 00:03:57.130
and emotional satisfaction we expect from
100
00:03:57.290 --> 00:04:00.130
big budget entertainment. It's really
101
00:04:00.130 --> 00:04:02.570
changing the game for how we approach these
102
00:04:02.570 --> 00:04:03.450
classic tales.
103
00:04:04.250 --> 00:04:06.010
Jessica: That's such a thoughtful way to look at it.
104
00:04:06.600 --> 00:04:08.520
This isn't just a conclusion to a beloved
105
00:04:08.520 --> 00:04:11.200
story, it's potentially opening doors for how
106
00:04:11.200 --> 00:04:13.160
we tell these kinds of stories in the future.
107
00:04:14.040 --> 00:04:16.200
Chris: And you know what? That might be the most
108
00:04:16.200 --> 00:04:18.800
exciting thing about this film. It's showing
109
00:04:18.800 --> 00:04:20.960
that you can create something that's both
110
00:04:20.960 --> 00:04:23.080
commercially successful and intellectually
111
00:04:23.080 --> 00:04:26.080
challenging. Something that entertains while
112
00:04:26.080 --> 00:04:27.560
also making us think about our own
113
00:04:27.560 --> 00:04:30.400
assumptions about power, justice, and
114
00:04:30.400 --> 00:04:33.070
what it really means to be wicked. And we
115
00:04:33.070 --> 00:04:34.470
give it a score of 8 out of 10.
116
00:04:34.790 --> 00:04:36.950
Voice Over Guy: You've been listening to movies first
117
00:04:37.270 --> 00:04:40.070
available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
118
00:04:40.230 --> 00:04:42.950
iHeartRadio, or your favorite podcast
119
00:04:42.950 --> 00:04:45.270
player. You can also stream on demand at
120
00:04:45.270 --> 00:04:45.990
bytes.
121
00:04:45.990 --> 00:04:48.590
Chris: Com. This has been another quality podcast
122
00:04:48.590 --> 00:04:50.380
production from Bytes. Com.
123
00:04:50.380 --> 00:04:51.880
Voice Over Guy: Um.
0
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.160
Chris: The transformation of villains into heroes
1
00:00:02.240 --> 00:00:05.240
has captivated audiences for generations. But
2
00:00:05.240 --> 00:00:07.200
what makes Wicked's exploration of good and
3
00:00:07.200 --> 00:00:09.800
evil so revolutionary is how it completely
4
00:00:09.800 --> 00:00:12.800
dismantles our assumptions about power, truth
5
00:00:12.800 --> 00:00:14.960
and justice in ways we never expected.
6
00:00:15.520 --> 00:00:18.280
Jessica: You know what's fascinating about that? The
7
00:00:18.280 --> 00:00:20.320
way this second part especially challenges
8
00:00:20.320 --> 00:00:22.440
our preconceptions about who gets to write
9
00:00:22.440 --> 00:00:22.720
history.
10
00:00:23.680 --> 00:00:26.080
Chris: Well, that's exactly what makes Michelle
11
00:00:26.080 --> 00:00:28.160
Yeoh's portrayal of Madame Morrible so
12
00:00:28.160 --> 00:00:30.600
chilling. She's essentially orchestrating
13
00:00:30.600 --> 00:00:33.400
this massive propaganda campaign that feels
14
00:00:33.400 --> 00:00:35.400
eerily relevant to our modern media
15
00:00:35.400 --> 00:00:37.800
landscape. The way she manipulates public
16
00:00:37.800 --> 00:00:39.960
perception reminds me of how social movements
17
00:00:40.120 --> 00:00:41.960
can be undermined through strategic
18
00:00:41.960 --> 00:00:42.520
messaging.
19
00:00:43.240 --> 00:00:45.600
Jessica: Hmm. And the whole concept of using
20
00:00:45.600 --> 00:00:48.400
Glinda's transportable bubble as this tool of
21
00:00:48.400 --> 00:00:50.760
mass manipulation, it's like a perfect
22
00:00:50.760 --> 00:00:52.760
metaphor for how social media can create
23
00:00:52.840 --> 00:00:55.410
these artificial Personas, don't you think?
24
00:00:56.370 --> 00:00:58.210
Chris: That's such an interesting parallel.
25
00:00:58.530 --> 00:01:00.930
And speaking of Glinda, let me tell you why
26
00:01:00.930 --> 00:01:03.250
Ariana Grande's performance is so crucial
27
00:01:03.250 --> 00:01:05.650
here. She brings this vulnerability
28
00:01:06.050 --> 00:01:08.250
to the role that makes Glinda's journey from
29
00:01:08.250 --> 00:01:10.930
popularity obsessed student to someone
30
00:01:10.930 --> 00:01:13.610
grappling with real moral choices feel
31
00:01:13.610 --> 00:01:14.690
completely authentic.
32
00:01:15.490 --> 00:01:17.530
Jessica: The chemistry between Grande and Cynthia
33
00:01:17.530 --> 00:01:20.410
Erivo is really something special. You can
34
00:01:20.410 --> 00:01:22.090
feel the weight of their shared history in
35
00:01:22.090 --> 00:01:23.090
every scene they share.
36
00:01:24.280 --> 00:01:25.920
Chris: You know what's really striking about their
37
00:01:25.920 --> 00:01:28.480
dynamic? The way it explores how two people
38
00:01:28.480 --> 00:01:30.840
can start from the same place but end up on
39
00:01:30.840 --> 00:01:33.760
completely different paths. Erivo brings this
40
00:01:33.760 --> 00:01:36.520
raw intensity to Elphaba that makes her
41
00:01:36.520 --> 00:01:38.880
choice to stand against corruption feel both
42
00:01:38.880 --> 00:01:41.880
heroic and tragically inevitable.
43
00:01:42.600 --> 00:01:45.160
Jessica: Well, that complexity really comes through in
44
00:01:45.160 --> 00:01:48.040
the musical numbers, doesn't it? Each song
45
00:01:48.040 --> 00:01:49.920
feels like it's advancing the story rather
46
00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:51.400
than just providing spectacle.
47
00:01:52.510 --> 00:01:54.950
Chris: Oh, exactly. And, uh, let me point out
48
00:01:54.950 --> 00:01:56.430
something about the technical achievements
49
00:01:56.430 --> 00:01:59.190
that really elevate this story. The special
50
00:01:59.190 --> 00:02:01.510
effects, particularly in that tornado
51
00:02:01.510 --> 00:02:03.950
sequence, aren't just impressive visually,
52
00:02:04.350 --> 00:02:06.710
they're serving as this perfect metaphor for
53
00:02:06.710 --> 00:02:09.230
how quickly society can be turned upside down
54
00:02:09.470 --> 00:02:11.070
by fear and manipulation.
55
00:02:11.790 --> 00:02:13.950
Jessica: And the way they handled the animals in Oz,
56
00:02:14.270 --> 00:02:16.030
it's like watching this allegory for
57
00:02:16.030 --> 00:02:17.870
marginalized voices come to life through
58
00:02:17.870 --> 00:02:18.910
cutting edge technology.
59
00:02:20.510 --> 00:02:22.990
Chris: That's such a crucial point. Um, um. Because
60
00:02:22.990 --> 00:02:25.350
every element of the production is working to
61
00:02:25.350 --> 00:02:27.790
deepen these themes of power and resistance.
62
00:02:28.350 --> 00:02:30.910
Even Jeff Goldblum's portrayal of the wizard
63
00:02:31.070 --> 00:02:33.230
adds this layer of commentary about how
64
00:02:33.230 --> 00:02:34.990
charisma can mask corruption.
65
00:02:35.790 --> 00:02:37.870
Jessica: Speaking of which, the costume design really
66
00:02:37.870 --> 00:02:39.990
tells its own story about power dynamics in
67
00:02:39.990 --> 00:02:40.910
Oz, doesn't it?
68
00:02:41.790 --> 00:02:43.870
Chris: Absolutely fascinating how they use those
69
00:02:43.870 --> 00:02:46.480
visual elements, like the way Glinda's
70
00:02:46.480 --> 00:02:48.600
increasingly elaborate outfits contrasts with
71
00:02:48.600 --> 00:02:51.560
Elphaba's practical darker attire tells
72
00:02:51.560 --> 00:02:53.800
us everything about their diverging paths.
73
00:02:54.200 --> 00:02:56.040
And when you consider how Marisa Bode's
74
00:02:56.040 --> 00:02:58.880
Nesteros fits into this visual language, it's
75
00:02:58.880 --> 00:03:01.319
like watching a masterclass in character
76
00:03:01.319 --> 00:03:02.680
development through design.
77
00:03:03.720 --> 00:03:05.280
Jessica: The way they tied everything together with
78
00:03:05.280 --> 00:03:07.240
the arrival of Dorothy and those iconic
79
00:03:07.240 --> 00:03:09.640
shoes. It's brilliant how they made such
80
00:03:09.640 --> 00:03:11.640
familiar elements feel completely fresh.
81
00:03:13.070 --> 00:03:15.190
Chris: You know what makes this work so well as a
82
00:03:15.190 --> 00:03:17.710
conclusion? Director John M M Chu
83
00:03:17.950 --> 00:03:19.950
has managed to create something that works on
84
00:03:19.950 --> 00:03:22.510
multiple levels. It's this spectacular
85
00:03:22.590 --> 00:03:25.230
fantasy musical that's also dealing with some
86
00:03:25.230 --> 00:03:27.630
really complex ideas about truth, justice and
87
00:03:27.630 --> 00:03:30.390
the nature of evil. The way they balance all
88
00:03:30.390 --> 00:03:32.590
these elements while still maintaining that
89
00:03:32.590 --> 00:03:34.750
PG rating is pretty remarkable.
90
00:03:35.950 --> 00:03:37.830
Jessica: So what do you think this says about how we
91
00:03:37.830 --> 00:03:39.470
tell stories about good and evil going
92
00:03:39.470 --> 00:03:39.790
forward?
93
00:03:41.050 --> 00:03:42.850
Chris: Well, I think it shows that audiences are
94
00:03:42.850 --> 00:03:45.090
ready for more nuanced explorations of
95
00:03:45.090 --> 00:03:48.010
morality. The success of this film proves
96
00:03:48.010 --> 00:03:49.930
that we can handle stories that challenge our
97
00:03:49.930 --> 00:03:51.930
assumptions about who's right and who's wrong
98
00:03:52.250 --> 00:03:54.290
while still delivering the kind of spectacle
99
00:03:54.290 --> 00:03:57.130
and emotional satisfaction we expect from
100
00:03:57.290 --> 00:04:00.130
big budget entertainment. It's really
101
00:04:00.130 --> 00:04:02.570
changing the game for how we approach these
102
00:04:02.570 --> 00:04:03.450
classic tales.
103
00:04:04.250 --> 00:04:06.010
Jessica: That's such a thoughtful way to look at it.
104
00:04:06.600 --> 00:04:08.520
This isn't just a conclusion to a beloved
105
00:04:08.520 --> 00:04:11.200
story, it's potentially opening doors for how
106
00:04:11.200 --> 00:04:13.160
we tell these kinds of stories in the future.
107
00:04:14.040 --> 00:04:16.200
Chris: And you know what? That might be the most
108
00:04:16.200 --> 00:04:18.800
exciting thing about this film. It's showing
109
00:04:18.800 --> 00:04:20.960
that you can create something that's both
110
00:04:20.960 --> 00:04:23.080
commercially successful and intellectually
111
00:04:23.080 --> 00:04:26.080
challenging. Something that entertains while
112
00:04:26.080 --> 00:04:27.560
also making us think about our own
113
00:04:27.560 --> 00:04:30.400
assumptions about power, justice, and
114
00:04:30.400 --> 00:04:33.070
what it really means to be wicked. And we
115
00:04:33.070 --> 00:04:34.470
give it a score of 8 out of 10.
116
00:04:34.790 --> 00:04:36.950
Voice Over Guy: You've been listening to movies first
117
00:04:37.270 --> 00:04:40.070
available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
118
00:04:40.230 --> 00:04:42.950
iHeartRadio, or your favorite podcast
119
00:04:42.950 --> 00:04:45.270
player. You can also stream on demand at
120
00:04:45.270 --> 00:04:45.990
bytes.
121
00:04:45.990 --> 00:04:48.590
Chris: Com. This has been another quality podcast
122
00:04:48.590 --> 00:04:50.380
production from Bytes. Com.
123
00:04:50.380 --> 00:04:51.880
Voice Over Guy: Um.
