The New Rules of Music Marketing w/ Tom Hoare

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There's more data than- Yeah

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there ever has been in the hands of artists- Yeah

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as you said, like- 100%, yeah

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you used to have to sign to a label if you really wanted to get kind of, you know, focus group level, you know, kind of consumer insights.

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Yeah.

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These days, so much- It's, like-

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of that stuff is available-

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at your fingertips

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at your fingertips.

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Yeah.

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So I would say, like, just keep an eye under the hood- Yeah

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on what's reacting and what's not.

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It's a process of elimination, especially with the more scattergun kind of asymmetrical platforms like TikTok- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

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surfaces like Reels and Shorts, where, you know, you're not just seeing stuff from who you follow- Yeah

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you're seeing stuff from everyone, and it's incredibly scattergun.

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So you can just test and learn.

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Yeah.

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Honestly, that's, when we're- Iterate.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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When we're on

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Iterate, exactly.

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Hey, everyone.

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Thank you for tuning in.

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You're listening to the Music to Your Ears podcast.

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I am your co-host, Danny Garcia, joined by- Jimmy McCawley.

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And today our guest is Tom Hoare, the global director of audience development and partnerships at Pias.

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Thanks for joining us.

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Thank you so much for having me.

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Yeah.

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No, super excited.

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Uh, we're here at Indie Week in New York, and lots of ideas being tossed around, lots of really cool innovations.

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So really excited to dive in, but I, where, where we really wanted to start was just learning about your origin story.

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How did you get to this role?

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How did you get into the music industry in the first place, and, and what led you down this path?

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Sure, yeah.

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Um, great question.

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I will start off by saying that, as you said, we're at Indie Week, and unfortunately this is at the tail end of Indie Week-

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so my voice- Yeah, it's gone

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is a little bit hoarse because I've been doing a lot of yapping.

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A lot of mixes and panels and whatnot.

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But, um, yeah, if we had recorded on Monday morning, I maybe wouldn't be sounding quite so, uh, so scratchy, but it's Thursday afternoon instead, so forgive me.

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Yeah, my journey, my journey kind of into the music biz was when, when I was a teenager, I wanted to be an actor, was v- drawn to kind of performance from, from a young age.

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And as well as acting, I was writing and directing and putting on my own shows and stuff and, and, and I also played music and, and, and, uh, piano and guitar and performed in school concerts and stuff.

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I even did stand-up comedy- Mm

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at 1 point at school.

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So I was really trying everything out.

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And then through writing, I got quite into journalism.

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And I loved music, and I thought to myself, "I'll be a music journalist.

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That's what I'll do."

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And I was working

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My first job in music really was I worked in Sydney, Australia for a couple of years.

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Oh, wow.

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I, uh, of landed there after some travels after graduating university in the UK.

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Landed in Sydney and I got a job as the receptionist, the- Yeah

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the temp receptionist at this, uh, TV company that's called Foxtel, which is like the Australian version of a, of a Comcast- Mm

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or of Sky in the UK, like a big, you know, pay TV provider.

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And amongst the suite of channels that I was the receptionist for were these music channels called Channel , um, which was an amazing Australian music TV channel.

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The type of music TV channel that doesn't really exist much anymore.

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Like as well as showing music videos- Yeah

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it also had loads of great music programming.

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It would do interviews with artists.

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They would do coverage of festivals, music news, you know, whatever.

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And they had a website, which was

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And, and they had social media presences- Mm

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which was quite new at the time.

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This is, this is the late 2000s, right?

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Oh, wow.

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Yeah.

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And I made friends with the dude that ran the website and ran the social properties, and he was like, "If you ever wanna do some writing for us, you know, we publish artist interviews, we publish album reviews, news articles, whatever."

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And I was like, "Oh, hell yeah.

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I'd love to do that."

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'Cause music journalism was one of the things that I was most interested in.

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So I started doing that kind of- Mm-hmm

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on the side.

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I, I ended up staying at the company and got sponsored on a, on a, on a visa and stayed in- Wow

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Australia for a while.

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And I was doing that, and then I was also freelancing for a couple of other Australian music websites and music in, in the print press as well, interviewing artists and whatever.

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I then moved back to London and tried my hand at the freelance music journalist game there.

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Mm.

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But the music industry in Australia, whilst it's fantastic, it's small, right?

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Yeah.

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And so it wasn't that difficult to, to break into the ranks of the kind of music journalism game there.

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In London, it's, it's a much, much bigger, much more competitive marketplace, and so I was finding myself, you know- Yeah

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not really having much luck trying to crack into that.

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And my then girlfriend, now wife, was like, "Why don't you apply for some jobs at record labels?"

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And I was like, "I mean, you have to have gone to college to, and, and, and-" "

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like done music industry management to, to work there.

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Like, I love music, but I don't know about- Yeah

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the business and how it works and what kind of deals artists sign to and whatever."

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And she was like, "No you don't.

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Like- "

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I'm sure you can just apply for a job and, you know, learn on the job and whatever."

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And so I started Pias where I now am, but this was the first time at Pias.

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Oh, wow.

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Okay.

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Because I'm on my second go round at Pias.

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So I started at Pias in 2012, and I was doing digital.

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I was focusing a lot on YouTube and Vevo.

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Mm.

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YouTube as a kind of monetization platform- Okay

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rather than just, like, somewhere to dump music videos, was a very new concept.

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Content ID was quite a new thing.

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Mm.

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Channel management, channel strategy- Yeah

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was all quite new.

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Um, and so it was exciting to be kind of at the forefront of Pias' efforts in that space.

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I then left Pias to go to Polydor- Mm

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um, which is a, a frontline label of Universal Music, and I did 3 years there on the digital team.

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I think because I came from an indie, naturally I was put on a lot of the more alternative-leaning stuff from the Polydor roster.

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So I worked on things like The 1975 and- Oh, nice

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um, James Blake, Michael Kiwanuka, Elbow, as well as, you know, the, the pure pop stuff as well.

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Um, but I definitely had a, a, a, a fun time kind of working on Polydor's more alternative-leaning stuff.

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Yeah.

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I left PolydorTo take a brief step out of music- Hmm

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and I went into film.

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I went to be the head of digital for Universal Pictures in London, which was a fantastic learning experience, and amazing to get another perspective on entertainment marketing- Mm-hmm

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and audience building and entertainment.

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But I think what it just underscored for me was like, I love music- Yeah

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and that's where I need to be.

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Sometimes you take a step away from something- Yeah, to get back to

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Yeah.

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Totally.

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To rediscover your love for it.

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And so I did a couple years at, at, at NBC Universal, and then I went back into music at Sony Music, um, and did about a year there.

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And then unfortunately I was a victim of a wide round of-

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redundancies that happened when Psycho Music, which was the label that I worked for under Sony, which had been a joint venture between Simon Cowell and- Mm-hmm

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Sony Music, those 2 companies split, essentially parted ways, and a casualty of that was the, the label group staff left the business.

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And then, yeah, couple of months of like- Yeah

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soul-searching and thinking about what I wanna do next, chatting to various people about what was out there, what was going on, and of course I had stayed in touch with people at Pias because I'd had such a great time working there the first time around, and it just so happened that they were looking for someone- Hmm

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like me to come in.

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And so I joined, rejoined Pias in 2020, running digital marketing and audience development and streaming partnerships for the label group side of the business.

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Okay.

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Because Pias is, is divided into the, the label group, which is the in-house group of recordings and licenses and stuff, and then there's also a separate artist and label services and distribution business- Mm-hmm

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which we call Integral.

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Um, so I don't work on that.

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I'm, I'm, I'm strictly on our in-house labels.

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And so I, yeah, rejoined, uh, the business in 2020.

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I moved over to LA, um, to work out of our US office in 2023, and then 2 months ago I moved, I switched coasts-

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uh, and I'm now based here in New York City.

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So that's my- That's, that's amazing

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that's my journey.

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That's a long answer, sorry

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I, no, no, it's, it's a, it's a great story because, I mean, one of the things, and ahead of obviously reading your LinkedIn and everything, one of the questions I wanted to ask, and maybe we could start there, what overlap, if there is any at all, is there between digital marketing and film and digital marketing and music?

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Like, is there, is there things that you can bring in?

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Are there things that maybe artists can take advantage of that are overlooked?

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To, to be honest

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Sorry, go ahead.

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Did you have a question?

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No, no, no.

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Go for it.

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All right.

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In other words, what do they do better than we do?

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Well- Yeah, exactly.

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Yeah.

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Yeah

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well, I, I'm gonna be honest with you.

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I, I think it's what could, what can the movies learn from music marketing?

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Hmm, hmm.

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And I think that actually, I would speculate that, that one of the reasons that I was hired there is because coming from the music marketing world, it's a, it's a, it's actually a, you know, we don't appreciate how in the music business we're kind of at the apex of new ways of finding audiences, new innovative, experimentive ways of funneling audiences from one place to another, right?

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And I think that actually they quite liked that I had that experience because film marketing is, it's, the, the lead times are, are much, much longer, right?

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Mm-hmm.

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You will build your kind of train track very measuredly and very consideredly, some might say formulaically.

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Hmm.

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And then you will pick the train up and put it on the track, and you will-

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sit back and watch- Yeah

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as the train goes along the track.

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And there's not many surprises, to be honest with you.

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There's not really many organic- Hmm

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headwinds that can come out of nowhere and, like, suddenly- Take off.

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the film marketing plan needs to look completely different to how it did yesterday.

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It's, it's, it's not really like that.

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It tends to just be, you know, you have your audiences, you have your targeting, you have your creative, you have the funnel that you're trying to move people through.

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The film is, is, is rolling out.

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You have your trailer drop, you have your other kind of key moments.

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But there's not really so much potential for something totally unexpected to happen- Yeah.

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Like a TikTok.

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that sends it off in a different direction.

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Whereas, exactly, like with music, you know, sometimes you'll, you'll, you'll come into the office and it's like-

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"Whoa, we got added to the Radio 1 A-list way sooner than we were gonna expecting to."

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Or, "Whoa, you know, a Kardashian used our track in the- Yeah

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background of their Instagram story, and now we've gone from getting 25,000 plays a day to 250,000 plays a day.

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We need to suddenly- Yeah, yeah

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activate, you know, another, like we've been given an extra 20 grand of spend to just- Yeah

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you know.

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So, so those, those dynamic shifts are, for me, one of the most exciting things about- Mm

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the music industry, and I loved that.

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And so I, I would say- It's the other way around.

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the answer to your question is the other way around.

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Yeah.

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And I think what they could learn is, is a little bit more agility.

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Mm.

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And a little bit more like let's, let's see how it's gonna go.

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Let's see what the sentiment is.

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And also what I found frustrating there was, you know, in music there's a certain amount of just creative risk-taking, you know?

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Mm.

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Sometimes you'll do something for an artist's fan base just to do it.

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Do you know what I mean?

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Yeah, yeah.

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Just because you think it's gonna be a cool moment and the fans are gonna get a kick out of it, and, "Oh, we're gonna have the artist turn up in an ice cream truck in Bryant Park- Yeah, yeah

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down the street selling ice creams."

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Like, are we gonna be able to quantify what the ROI on that is?

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Mm.

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Probably not.

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No.

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You know?

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But is it gonna be content that we can utilize that, you know, makes a moment, gets people talking, maybe drives awareness and kind of drives affinity?

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You betcha.

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But I think that sometimes you can find yourself in more commercial corporate environments where there's less of that kind of just risk-taking.

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And there's more, like, everything has to be justified.

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Everything has to be, you know, dollars and cents worked out on what the kind of ROAS is gonna be on this.

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Yes, yeah.

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And that's not a thing that you can always offer in music, and we're quite, I think, forgiving in music of just, like, "Well, we'll know that- Yeah

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it worked."

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Because, you know, we're so across the kind of tiniest little changes in direction in the campaign.

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Um, but will we be able to put a kind of, you know, dollars and cents of, like, revenue driven off the clicks driven, you know, conversions driven?

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No.

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Yeah, yeah.

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But yeah, no, to your point, we should probably give ourselves more credit.

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Um- The funny thing is how expectations are set in the music industry, 'cause you were very kind in your examples, but there's many meetings where the question is, "How do we create the viral moment, then, then we'll help everyone to agitate?"

221
00:12:54,360 --> 00:13:03,320
So I love that the, the benchmark has moved to how do you capitalize on a viral moment happening to we absolutely need our own viral moment.

222
00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:04,160
When is it coming?

223
00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:04,820
Totally.

224
00:13:04,820 --> 00:13:16,140
And I think, like, we've, we've had experience in the last, you know, um, in the last 12 months or longer of being very reactive to a sudden track going- Yeah

225
00:13:16,140 --> 00:13:16,960
viral.

226
00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:31,780
What I would absolutely never claim to have been able to do is, like, engineer a viral moment, because I genuinely think anyone that says that, anyone that goes to a job interview and says like, "Yeah, I'm an expert at crafting virality out of nowhere," I think is- Yeah

227
00:13:31,780 --> 00:13:35,049
is, um, talking, talking rubbish.

228
00:13:35,049 --> 00:13:36,329
Uh, I was gonna say another word there- Yeah, yeah, yeah

229
00:13:36,329 --> 00:13:37,680
but I'm not sure if we can swear.

230
00:13:37,680 --> 00:13:39,280
Um, is talking rubbish.

231
00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:41,120
I, I- These are the New York tapings.

232
00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:44,280
There, there's been way more swearing than we had on the West Coast.

233
00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:44,880
Really?

234
00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:44,940
Yeah, yeah.

235
00:13:44,940 --> 00:13:45,420
Okay.

236
00:13:45,420 --> 00:13:45,800
All right.

237
00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:47,540
I sh- I'll loosen up a bit then.

238
00:13:47,540 --> 00:13:56,500
Um, the, uh, the, yeah, you know, I think we've, we've, we've had tracks that have just kind of really blown up, um, off the back of

239
00:13:56,500 --> 00:13:58,460
Sometimes it's quite hard to discern what.

240
00:13:58,460 --> 00:13:58,609
Yeah, yeah.

241
00:13:58,609 --> 00:13:58,780
You know?

242
00:13:58,780 --> 00:14:00,720
Like, I'll give a couple of examples.

243
00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:04,520
You know, we work with this fantastic Irish hip hop trio called Kneecap.

244
00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:04,760
Mm.

245
00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:08,049
Who they've just been blowing up, you know, off the back- Yeah

246
00:14:08,049 --> 00:14:10,900
of they had a very successful film that was distributed by Sony Pictures.

247
00:14:10,900 --> 00:14:12,600
The album did really, really well.

248
00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:21,060
They, you know, have caught people's imagination and tapped into the zeitgeist and the conversation, um, around a lot of things that's going on geopolitically at the moment.

249
00:14:21,060 --> 00:14:22,960
Coachella was a huge moment for them.

250
00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:28,560
And tracks are just going viral on their TikTok with a bunch of different, you know- Yeah

251
00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:28,980
trends.

252
00:14:28,980 --> 00:14:29,000
Wizards, yeah.

253
00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,020
It kind of is not one particular

254
00:14:31,020 --> 00:14:38,820
And sometimes the, the, the, the temptation is to flatten it and be like, "Ah, it's going viral because of this."

255
00:14:38,820 --> 00:14:45,760
Like, "And all the top UGC is around this trend, so this is what we should kind of lean into and double down into."

256
00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:50,840
But actually you need to understand that it's more kaleidoscopic than that.

257
00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:50,940
Yeah, yeah.

258
00:14:50,940 --> 00:14:56,200
It's more like some people are using it for, like, funny anti-UK sentiment.

259
00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:56,600
You know?

260
00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:04,260
Like, there's a lot of that 'cause they're very politically outspoken against, uh, you know, British occupy, uh, 00 occupancy of Ireland.

261
00:15:04,260 --> 00:15:08,550
But then there's, uh, also people just making, you know, kind of funny meme content.

262
00:15:08,550 --> 00:15:08,650
Yeah.

263
00:15:08,650 --> 00:15:09,750
Funny drug content.

264
00:15:09,750 --> 00:15:12,280
'Cause they joke about drugs a lot in their songs.

265
00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:12,340
Yeah.

266
00:15:12,340 --> 00:15:24,050
So, and then another, you know, kind of flip side of that is this artist that we have called Anna of North, who's fantastic and she's, she's, um, a, a project that we're gearing up to work on new releases from, which I'm really excited.

267
00:15:24,050 --> 00:15:25,460
And she's actually playing here in New York- Oh, wow

268
00:15:25,460 --> 00:15:28,720
in a couple of days at the, uh, Central Park SummerStage.

269
00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:32,500
She has a song called "Lovers," which was released in 2017.

270
00:15:32,500 --> 00:15:41,120
It was synced in a Netflix movie called To All The Boys I've Loved Before, which was a big rom-com for Netflix.

271
00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:43,440
I think it kind of broke records at the time.

272
00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:48,740
And that track off the back of that sync just kind of has become this evergreen- Mm

273
00:15:48,740 --> 00:15:49,480
you know.

274
00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:53,940
Every 3 months, every 6 months it seems to just discover a whole new audience again.

275
00:15:53,940 --> 00:15:54,060
Wow.

276
00:15:54,060 --> 00:15:58,620
People utilizing it to soundtrack everything from, like, aesthetic videos.

277
00:15:58,620 --> 00:16:00,840
There's a lot of, like, home makeover.

278
00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:05,220
Like, you know, like a transition this is a before, this is an after type thing.

279
00:16:05,220 --> 00:16:08,010
But also vintage aesthetic stuff- Mm

280
00:16:08,010 --> 00:16:10,260
throwback stuff, romantic stuff.

281
00:16:10,260 --> 00:16:18,440
And, um, one of the regions where this has been happening kind of more so than anywhere else is Latin America specifically.

282
00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:18,500
100%.

283
00:16:18,500 --> 00:16:19,100
Brazil.

284
00:16:19,100 --> 00:16:19,852
Yeah.

285
00:16:19,852 --> 00:16:28,752
Um, which historically has not been in the kind of top markets for this artist, and now she's able to play to, you know, thousands of people- Wow.

286
00:16:28,752 --> 00:16:29,242
Yeah

287
00:16:29,242 --> 00:16:34,612
in São Paulo, in Rio de Janeiro, off the back of this track just kind of blowing up on TikTok Brazil.

288
00:16:34,612 --> 00:16:34,952
Mm.

289
00:16:34,952 --> 00:16:38,312
Us leaning into that with kind of Portuguese local language- Yeah

290
00:16:38,312 --> 00:16:41,572
creators and influencers working with TikTok Brazil.

291
00:16:41,572 --> 00:16:46,952
I think we have banners and a kind of sound page put up, um, on TikTok around the song as well.

292
00:16:46,952 --> 00:16:56,542
So those have been examples of like how we've retroactively or kind of retrospectively, I suppose, jump on existing trends- Yeah

293
00:16:56,542 --> 00:16:58,992
once they've already kind of caught fire.

294
00:16:58,992 --> 00:17:01,312
But yeah, we have not yet been able to master-

295
00:17:01,312 --> 00:17:02,412
like making- Making it happen

296
00:17:02,412 --> 00:17:03,722
making a viral moment- Yeah.

297
00:17:03,722 --> 00:17:04,452
out of nothing.

298
00:17:04,452 --> 00:17:05,492
But, you know.

299
00:17:05,492 --> 00:17:06,872
I think, yeah- I don't think anyone can

300
00:17:06,872 --> 00:17:11,932
I, zooming out a little bit too, you know, a lot of people listening are independent artists- Mm

301
00:17:11,932 --> 00:17:17,470
that, you know, might be doing this by the- by themselves, might be doing this with just one manager, right?

302
00:17:18,472 --> 00:17:20,712
And audience development, right?

303
00:17:20,712 --> 00:17:27,452
That's, that's an interesting term, like, because it focuses on things like fan engagement, focuses thing

304
00:17:27,452 --> 00:17:32,212
on things like, you know, we always say, like save rates, followers are better than just streams, right?

305
00:17:32,212 --> 00:17:32,742
Mm-hmm.

306
00:17:32,742 --> 00:17:42,612
So if you could give some advice to an artist that's just starting out and starting to develop their audience, where would you kind of, what direction would you point them in?

307
00:17:42,612 --> 00:17:44,432
Like where, where should they start?

308
00:17:44,432 --> 00:17:45,932
What should they focus on?

309
00:17:45,932 --> 00:17:48,452
How do they, you know, get their first steps?

310
00:17:48,452 --> 00:17:49,012
Yeah, sure.

311
00:17:49,012 --> 00:17:49,392
Totally.

312
00:17:49,392 --> 00:17:53,252
I mean, this is a question that I get all the time from our own brand new artists.

313
00:17:53,252 --> 00:17:53,492
Yeah.

314
00:17:53,492 --> 00:17:56,592
So I think I'll, I'll walk you through our process, right?

315
00:17:56,592 --> 00:17:56,712
Sure, yeah.

316
00:17:56,712 --> 00:17:59,452
Like I'll walk, I'll walk you through how we treat a brand new artist.

317
00:17:59,452 --> 00:18:08,912
So one of the first things that we'll do is we have a, a, a product, I suppose, that we create internally called an audience DNA.

318
00:18:08,912 --> 00:18:09,182
Mm.

319
00:18:09,182 --> 00:18:17,782
And that uses a variety of, you know, first party analytic tools from the platforms themselves, i.e. Spotify for artists- Mm

320
00:18:17,782 --> 00:18:26,332
Instagram analytics, TikTok analytics, whatever, with third party subscriptions and tools that we have as part of our tech stack- Yeah

321
00:18:26,332 --> 00:18:33,852
to, we combine those to create a report that will be, you know, pretty in depth, probably 20 plus pages- Mm

322
00:18:33,852 --> 00:18:42,912
that looks at an artist's audience and, or an artist's potential audience as well, because their audience might just be a couple of 1000, couple of hundred people- Yeah

323
00:18:42,912 --> 00:18:43,491
at this point.

324
00:18:43,491 --> 00:18:46,572
You know, sometimes we'll get involved with an artist when they are brand new.

325
00:18:46,572 --> 00:18:47,212
Wow.

326
00:18:47,212 --> 00:18:53,852
And it will look at, yeah, who the current audience is, who the potential audience could be, and by who.

327
00:18:53,852 --> 00:19:00,292
What we really try and do is drill into not just like the very basic age and gender information- Mm.

328
00:19:00,292 --> 00:19:00,422
Yeah

329
00:19:00,422 --> 00:19:05,552
that you, that you get from some services where it's like 55% female, 45% male.

330
00:19:05,552 --> 00:19:06,952
It's like how useful is that really?

331
00:19:06,952 --> 00:19:07,172
Yeah, yeah.

332
00:19:07,172 --> 00:19:07,412
You know.

333
00:19:07,412 --> 00:19:14,072
And similarly, how useful is it to know that X amount of your followers are in the 24 to 34 bracket?

334
00:19:14,072 --> 00:19:16,472
It's like, well, you can't flatten people into- Yeah

335
00:19:16,472 --> 00:19:17,252
do you know what I mean?

336
00:19:17,252 --> 00:19:25,292
So we'll try and dig into not just the, the, the demographic information, but real affinity data.

337
00:19:25,292 --> 00:19:25,612
Mm.

338
00:19:25,612 --> 00:19:34,242
So looking at things like what media do they like, what TV shows, what influencers do they follow, what brands are they likely- That's huge

339
00:19:34,242 --> 00:19:35,242
to think is cool.

340
00:19:35,242 --> 00:19:35,292
Yeah.

341
00:19:35,292 --> 00:19:44,872
And, and that just gives us, you know, it's not always necessarily like an exhaustive content strategy that completely dictates everything on how the campaign is run, but it gives us a little bit of a North Star- Yeah, yeah

342
00:19:44,872 --> 00:19:55,282
that we can be like, "Okay, in everything that I'm doing on this campaign, in every content strategy that I'm crafting, in every whatever, remember those, these 5 things that came- They're like pillars

343
00:19:55,282 --> 00:19:55,612
out of that report."

344
00:19:55,612 --> 00:19:56,112
Exactly.

345
00:19:56,112 --> 00:19:56,221
Yeah.

346
00:19:56,221 --> 00:19:56,552
Yeah, pillars.

347
00:19:56,552 --> 00:20:12,190
But I wanna pause there because the, this is so interesting because one of the biggest challenge for developing artists that are self-releasing is how to keep brand consistency- Mm-hmm

348
00:20:12,922 --> 00:20:15,362
through the messaging without being too- Yeah

349
00:20:15,362 --> 00:20:28,540
redundant, without becoming boring, and yet they know just by the click rates on different posts that the lifestyle ones usually get way more engagement than- Mm

350
00:20:28,540 --> 00:20:31,200
promoting the new song, the new video, or the show- 100%

351
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:32,382
that's up and coming.

352
00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:43,970
And this is usually where they start to lose a bit of authenticity because it, they feel compelled to posting about the avocado toast or-

353
00:20:43,970 --> 00:20:50,900
things that they know will get more clicks, but have no relevancy to what they're trying to get across.

354
00:20:50,900 --> 00:20:51,166
Mm-hmm.

355
00:20:52,220 --> 00:21:00,300
When you do identify those topics and affinities, how do you usually hone in on that?

356
00:21:00,300 --> 00:21:01,000
Mm-hmm.

357
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:01,160
Mm-hmm.

358
00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:11,680
Uh, because I'm, I'm assuming that the artist doesn't necessarily come from that subculture, it's just an affinity, i.e., like, if the artist comes from- Hmm

359
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:17,640
the skateboarding scene, then it's kind of obvious that you have an audience to tap into there.

360
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:17,960
Yeah.

361
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,990
It's, it's great when, when that does exist, when there is- Yeah

362
00:21:20,990 --> 00:21:29,520
a kind of like, when you have an artist that is very multidimensional, and as well as music, they also have, some other weird passion and hobby.

363
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:37,980
I'll give an example there of, um, a fantastic artist we work with called Heartworms, and the lead singer is obsessed with, um, planes.

364
00:21:37,980 --> 00:21:38,590
Uh-

365
00:21:38,590 --> 00:21:40,380
preferably military planes.

366
00:21:40,380 --> 00:21:40,560
Wow.

367
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:49,560
Um, World War II aircraft, and, um, she's a big fan of Airfix, which sometimes I get blank stares from Americans when I mention that.

368
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:50,750
In the UK-

369
00:21:50,750 --> 00:21:54,820
Airfix is a very, very well-known brand of model airplanes- Okay

370
00:21:54,820 --> 00:21:55,220
model whatever.

371
00:21:55,220 --> 00:21:55,860
Okay.

372
00:21:55,860 --> 00:21:55,870
Yeah.

373
00:21:55,870 --> 00:21:57,120
You buy them, you assemble them- And you build them.

374
00:21:57,120 --> 00:21:57,130
Yeah

375
00:21:57,130 --> 00:21:57,760
you paint them.

376
00:21:57,760 --> 00:21:57,800
Yeah.

377
00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,870
Exactly, yeah, with, like, your little microscope, painting the wings-

378
00:22:00,870 --> 00:22:01,840
different colors and whatever.

379
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:02,620
In your basement.

380
00:22:02,620 --> 00:22:03,340
Totally.

381
00:22:03,340 --> 00:22:03,800
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

382
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:06,280
Like, it's, it's, it's deep hobbyist stuff.

383
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:06,730
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

384
00:22:06,730 --> 00:22:08,120
And she's super into it.

385
00:22:08,120 --> 00:22:15,970
Uh, and so she's making kind of these, these, these side project videos, and it's like we've brought in just as many fans from- That.

386
00:22:15,970 --> 00:22:18,160
the Airfix community than we have.

387
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,180
And she's sort of like, "By the way, I also make music," do you know what I mean?

388
00:22:21,180 --> 00:22:25,390
And to the point where actually we brokered a brand partnership with Airfix.

389
00:22:25,390 --> 00:22:25,640
No way.

390
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:27,750
Like, they did a, they did a custom thing- That's amazing

391
00:22:27,750 --> 00:22:28,350
with her- Yeah

392
00:22:28,350 --> 00:22:29,260
which is really cool.

393
00:22:29,260 --> 00:22:32,240
So that made the artist happy, and that's great when you do have that.

394
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:32,420
Yeah.

395
00:22:32,420 --> 00:22:39,700
Because it's like, great, we can break up, to your point, like, we can break up the endless, like, "Please save the new single," like, tour dates.

396
00:22:39,700 --> 00:22:39,710
Yeah.

397
00:22:39,710 --> 00:22:40,220
You know?

398
00:22:40,220 --> 00:22:42,570
That's a constant, constant struggle that we- Mm-hmm

399
00:22:42,570 --> 00:22:49,570
have with artists, is, like, the blend of how many are for you versus how many are for the fans, you know?

400
00:22:49,570 --> 00:22:53,400
And kind of 8 to 20 normally tends to be our kind of guiding rule.

401
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:57,489
But, you know, you'll, you'll have pressure from- Yeah

402
00:22:57,489 --> 00:22:59,880
managers being like, "These tour dates aren't selling out.

403
00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:01,720
We need to be really hammering this, guys.

404
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:06,420
We need, like, a post every single day," being, you know, "Have you got your tickets to this yet?"

405
00:23:06,420 --> 00:23:07,620
Da, da, da.

406
00:23:07,620 --> 00:23:13,020
And that obviously has to be balanced with the fact that just engagement is going to crater if you do that.

407
00:23:13,020 --> 00:23:13,040
Yeah.

408
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:29,480
But I'm interested to hear it phrased the way you phrased it, which is that actually almost the opposite can happen, where there's a risk where the artist sees, sees the feedback that the lifestyle stuff performs better than the, than the salesy stuff, and so they end up just, like, chasing- Yeah

409
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:33,220
the lifestyle content and, and, and that in turn feels inauthentic.

410
00:23:33,220 --> 00:23:45,220
I think it, it's also a facet of, like, when I first started doing this, or certainly if you roll back the clock, you know, kind of 7, 8 years when it was, like, Instagram and Facebook were, were still the primary- Yeah

411
00:23:45,220 --> 00:23:52,080
um, you know, communications channels, and the ask that we had of artists was a lot easier back then.

412
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:58,100
It would be the good old days of, like, send a social schedule over once a week to the artist, you know?

413
00:23:58,100 --> 00:23:58,440
Mm-hmm.

414
00:23:58,440 --> 00:23:59,200
Here's

415
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:03,240
All the artist really had to do was, like, take a nice photo of a sunset every now and again.

416
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:03,620
Yeah, yeah.

417
00:24:03,620 --> 00:24:05,570
Nice, nice photo of some avocado toast.

418
00:24:05,570 --> 00:24:05,840
Post up and yeah.

419
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:07,780
We could write the, the schedule.

420
00:24:07,780 --> 00:24:11,140
They might rewrite a couple of posts to make it more in their tone of voice.

421
00:24:11,140 --> 00:24:12,660
Happy days, and it goes out.

422
00:24:12,660 --> 00:24:14,780
Now it's, you know, the- Hyper

423
00:24:14,780 --> 00:24:14,960
Yeah

424
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:20,519
the video demands, the video, the content creation demands have changed so much.

425
00:24:20,519 --> 00:24:28,960
And that, I think, is the biggest change in the last 10 years of just, like, again, you used to be in your planning meeting talking about what your campaign toolkit was- Mm-hmm

426
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:30,160
on this campaign.

427
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:34,400
And you'd be like, "Okay, we've got a music video of single one, we've got a music video of single 2.

428
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,310
We've maybe got a making of of a music video."

429
00:24:37,310 --> 00:24:39,780
"There'll maybe be a tour diary piece.

430
00:24:39,780 --> 00:24:40,420
That's about it."

431
00:24:40,420 --> 00:24:41,830
And you'd be like, "Yep, happy days."

432
00:24:41,830 --> 00:24:44,220
"That sounds like all the video I'll need for this campaign, really."

433
00:24:44,220 --> 00:24:48,840
In a, in a sense, it was way closer to the film industry process you were describing.

434
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:49,780
Yeah, 100%.

435
00:24:49,780 --> 00:24:49,960
Yeah, yeah.

436
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:50,660
100%.

437
00:24:50,660 --> 00:24:58,930
Whereas now, it's much more, you know, we're asking artists to be creating kind of multiple pieces of short-form video content- Hmm

438
00:24:58,930 --> 00:25:00,660
that's very edited, very polished.

439
00:25:00,660 --> 00:25:07,650
And some artists, tends to be younger Gen Z ones, are incredibly native- Yeah, yeah

440
00:25:07,650 --> 00:25:13,900
with TikTok, with YouTube Shorts, with whatever, and I've stood over the shoulder of one of them and watched them at speed that baffles- Yeah

441
00:25:13,900 --> 00:25:15,560
me in my late 30s.

442
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:20,630
Like, you know, just throw together filters and, you know, cuts and- And all this, yeah

443
00:25:20,630 --> 00:25:23,600
camera changes and whatever on a phone in 30 seconds.

444
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:23,700
Yeah.

445
00:25:23,700 --> 00:25:25,540
And, you know, if you can do that, more power to you.

446
00:25:25,540 --> 00:25:28,550
But also, not every artist can, and, and nor should we- Yeah

447
00:25:28,550 --> 00:25:30,860
expect every artist to, as well as being- Exactly

448
00:25:30,860 --> 00:25:31,980
an artist- Yeah, yeah

449
00:25:31,980 --> 00:25:35,320
also be a social media editing expert.

450
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:39,000
We've just beefed up our audience development offering- Hmm

451
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:43,720
um, in our head office, which is, which is London, which is where some of my team sit.

452
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:49,250
And, uh, we've brought on board for the first time in-house content creation- That's huge.

453
00:25:49,250 --> 00:25:50,690
which is something that historically- Yeah

454
00:25:50,690 --> 00:25:51,460
we've just never had.

455
00:25:51,460 --> 00:25:51,840
Yeah.

456
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:59,940
And now we have this wonderful person that, like, goes along to gigs, can create a content shoot day- Hmm

457
00:25:59,940 --> 00:26:00,700
out of nothing.

458
00:26:00,700 --> 00:26:07,000
You know, just rent a studio space, take along, you know, a couple of, tak- a couple cameras, couple of fisheye lenses- Yeah

459
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:08,140
couple of mics, whatever.

460
00:26:08,140 --> 00:26:09,280
Just make amazing

461
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:10,360
And make amazing content.

462
00:26:10,360 --> 00:26:10,370
Yeah.

463
00:26:10,370 --> 00:26:17,540
Or even what it will sometimes be is, like, an artist that's like, "Well, we're not all gonna be together on this campaign cycle.

464
00:26:17,540 --> 00:26:20,370
I live in LA, the bassist lives in New York-" Yeah

465
00:26:20,370 --> 00:26:21,860
"the whatever lives in London."

466
00:26:21,860 --> 00:26:29,020
But what we can do there is we'll work with artists to just, we'll just, like, have a shared iCloud camera roll folder.

467
00:26:29,020 --> 00:26:29,680
Oh, that's, that's smart.

468
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,170
And they'll just be, like, hearting things- Yeah

469
00:26:32,170 --> 00:26:34,840
that, like, they've seen on, on their travels recently.

470
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,850
And then our content creation person can just kind of whip- Just mix

471
00:26:37,850 --> 00:26:39,120
whip that up into a TikTok.

472
00:26:39,120 --> 00:26:39,140
Wow.

473
00:26:39,140 --> 00:26:40,920
And that, I think, is a, is a, is a- It's incredible

474
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:42,260
big part of- Yeah

475
00:26:42,260 --> 00:26:49,780
the label toolkit at the moment, is, like, being able to make it as easy as possible for, you know- Good content.

476
00:26:49,780 --> 00:26:56,740
for good content to be, to, to, to be not something which is solely an ask that we place at the artist's feet, you know?

477
00:26:56,740 --> 00:26:56,770
Yeah.

478
00:26:56,770 --> 00:26:57,820
Like, how can we help?

479
00:26:57,820 --> 00:27:00,660
How can we alleviate that stress a little bit?

480
00:27:00,660 --> 00:27:00,780
Hmm.

481
00:27:00,780 --> 00:27:02,558
'Cause there, there's a real-

482
00:27:02,558 --> 00:27:05,310
generational platform gap here.

483
00:27:06,108 --> 00:27:09,208
Uh, as someone who comes from labels- Mm

484
00:27:09,208 --> 00:27:26,288
I feel that we're now in the point where the artist has probably more knowledge and the right reflexes than the team of advisors that are sitting on the other side of the table- Mm-hmm.

485
00:27:26,288 --> 00:27:26,858
Yeah, yeah

486
00:27:26,858 --> 00:27:29,708
recommending, uh, the next steps.

487
00:27:29,708 --> 00:27:36,328
And so how do you constantly stay relevant and add to what they're doing, um- Totally.

488
00:27:36,328 --> 00:27:41,388
Yeah, I mean, and in, in some cases like that, our job is to kind of get out of the way really.

489
00:27:41,388 --> 00:27:56,688
Because if you do have an artist that, again, to use the example I used a few minutes ago of like standing over the shoulder of a young artist that can just like ch-ch-ch-ch-ch whip it all up together, like my job there is very much not to tell a 23-year-old-

490
00:27:56,688 --> 00:27:58,948
you know, kid that I know better than them- Yeah, yeah

491
00:27:58,948 --> 00:28:02,528
what is gonna kind of pop off, and that's wonderful when that happens.

492
00:28:02,528 --> 00:28:04,748
Th- there is no substitute for an engaged- Yeah

493
00:28:04,748 --> 00:28:13,048
artist that like knows their audience, knows how to kind of capture content, knows what, you know, what caption's gonna go best with this stuff.

494
00:28:13,048 --> 00:28:18,328
In my experience, that's not a role that most artists want to play- Yeah

495
00:28:18,328 --> 00:28:20,048
but when it does happen- It's like-

496
00:28:20,048 --> 00:28:21,248
it's wonderful.

497
00:28:21,248 --> 00:28:22,348
And there- Cherry on top.

498
00:28:22,348 --> 00:28:22,468
Yeah.

499
00:28:22,468 --> 00:28:23,998
Cherry on top, you know?

500
00:28:23,998 --> 00:28:34,248
And there I think our role is obviously to, you know, we work with, again, as part of our kind of tech stack, as part of our subscriptions, trend forecasting is a part of that.

501
00:28:34,248 --> 00:28:44,308
We work closely with several agencies, but also we have the relationship with TikTok themselves, who will let us know like, "Guys, did you know that July is electronic month?"

502
00:28:44,308 --> 00:28:44,408
Yeah.

503
00:28:44,408 --> 00:28:48,558
Or is, you know, hashtag song of the summer is gonna be a big thing for us, you know- Mm

504
00:28:48,558 --> 00:28:56,948
coming down the pipeline, or it's gonna be, you know, kind of what are we doing around the other big tent pole programming moments in the year like Pride, like- Yeah

505
00:28:56,948 --> 00:28:59,508
um, you know, kind of Black History Month, whatever else it is.

506
00:28:59,508 --> 00:29:00,008
Yeah.

507
00:29:00,008 --> 00:29:03,858
And so us knowing what's coming down the pipeline there- Helping that, yeah

508
00:29:03,858 --> 00:29:09,708
feeding that into the artists and being like, "Just think about, you know, there's gonna be a behind the song or a- Yeah

509
00:29:09,708 --> 00:29:16,108
kind of, you know, studio content, like for the gearheads, let's give them a tour of like what did you use to make this song?

510
00:29:16,108 --> 00:29:16,128
Mm.

511
00:29:16,128 --> 00:29:19,368
Like what production software, what, you know, tips and tricks.

512
00:29:19,368 --> 00:29:22,416
So, um, so that's the value that we can add in those scenarios,

513
00:29:23,468 --> 00:29:32,028
So yeah, I guess like coming back to the, I guess where we started here was like giving it, giving some tips to independent artists.

514
00:29:32,028 --> 00:29:32,048
Mm.

515
00:29:32,048 --> 00:29:32,308
Right?

516
00:29:32,308 --> 00:29:38,608
Like what we heard is, just to extract it out, like find affinities, right?

517
00:29:38,608 --> 00:29:39,948
Like find- Fi- find affinities- Yeah

518
00:29:39,948 --> 00:29:41,098
and know your audience, I think.

519
00:29:41,098 --> 00:29:41,298
Know your audience.

520
00:29:41,298 --> 00:29:42,798
Like there's more data- Yeah

521
00:29:42,798 --> 00:29:45,488
than there ever has been in the hands of artists- Yeah

522
00:29:45,488 --> 00:29:46,848
as you said, like- 100%, yeah.

523
00:29:46,848 --> 00:29:55,048
You used to have to sign to a label if you really wanted to get kind of, you know, focus group level, you know, kind of consumer insights.

524
00:29:55,048 --> 00:29:55,588
Yeah.

525
00:29:55,588 --> 00:29:56,897
These days, so much- It's like-

526
00:29:56,897 --> 00:29:57,498
of that stuff is available-

527
00:29:57,498 --> 00:29:58,188
at your fingertips

528
00:29:58,188 --> 00:29:58,808
at your fingertips.

529
00:29:58,808 --> 00:29:58,848
Yeah.

530
00:29:58,848 --> 00:30:03,528
So I would say like just keep an eye on under the hood- Yeah

531
00:30:03,528 --> 00:30:05,288
on what's reacting and what's not.

532
00:30:05,288 --> 00:30:12,968
It's a process of elimination, especially with the more scattergun kind of asymmetrical, um, platforms like TikTok- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

533
00:30:12,968 --> 00:30:18,928
surfaces like Reels and Shorts where, you know, you're not just seeing stuff from who you follow- Yeah

534
00:30:18,928 --> 00:30:21,968
you're seeing stuff from everyone, and it's incredibly scattergun.

535
00:30:21,968 --> 00:30:24,668
So you can just test and learn, you know?

536
00:30:24,668 --> 00:30:24,908
Yeah.

537
00:30:24,908 --> 00:30:26,468
Honestly, that's, when we're- Iterate.

538
00:30:26,468 --> 00:30:26,708
Yeah.

539
00:30:26,708 --> 00:30:26,868
Yeah.

540
00:30:26,868 --> 00:30:27,548
When we're on

541
00:30:27,548 --> 00:30:28,700
Iterate, exactly.

542
00:30:28,700 --> 00:30:38,540
When we're in kind of stealth mode, as we 0 sometimes refer to it, on an artist where, like, the first single's not gonna come out for 6 months or so- Yeah

543
00:30:38,540 --> 00:30:48,880
but we still need to be doing active grassroots audience development work in the background to kind of, you know, build you up to the point where you're, you're not just cold releasing a song- Yeah, yeah

544
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:49,960
to, to, to no one.

545
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,920
When we're in that kind of stealth mode set up, that's what we do, is just- Mm

546
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:55,220
is just test and learn, honestly.

547
00:30:55,220 --> 00:31:00,540
Just try different things, try different, you know, content styles, different tones of voice- Yeah

548
00:31:00,540 --> 00:31:02,940
you know, and just figure out what works.

549
00:31:02,940 --> 00:31:08,630
Obviously, always with the guidance and the help of the artist to be like, "This is what feels natural to me."

550
00:31:08,630 --> 00:31:12,200
Although some artists, some artists need a lot of help in that as well.

551
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:12,480
Yeah.

552
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:13,900
Bands in particular.

553
00:31:13,900 --> 00:31:15,340
You know, you'll have a band- Yeah

554
00:31:15,340 --> 00:31:19,200
with, with, with 5 people in it, and it's like, okay, what's the, what's the tone of voice?

555
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:19,240
Yeah.

556
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:20,830
You're 5 completely different people- Yeah, yeah

557
00:31:20,830 --> 00:31:23,060
obviously, with 5 different tones of voice.

558
00:31:23,060 --> 00:31:26,040
How are we gonna hit upon an identity for this- Mm

559
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:27,320
artist, you know?

560
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:31,540
Whereas in some cases at the other end of the spectrum, you have artists that are like, "No, I know exactly how- Yeah

561
00:31:31,540 --> 00:31:35,472
I want to sound, and no label person is gonna tell me that this works better or this doesn't."

562
00:31:36,340 --> 00:31:37,880
So yeah, work on a tone of voice.

563
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:38,660
Tone of voice.

564
00:31:38,660 --> 00:31:40,530
Work on understanding who your fans are.

565
00:31:40,530 --> 00:31:41,040
Yeah.

566
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:42,730
And the, the

567
00:31:42,730 --> 00:31:46,560
m- my, my team when they listen to this will roll their eyes because I'm always using this phrase, but, um-

568
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:48,610
world-building is a phrase- Yeah

569
00:31:48,610 --> 00:31:49,030
which I- This is huge

570
00:31:49,030 --> 00:31:49,920
which I use a lot of.

571
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:50,140
Yeah, yeah.

572
00:31:50,140 --> 00:31:58,100
And I think that, like, if you look at breakout artists of the last, I don't know, 5 years, whether it's Lil Nas X- Yeah

573
00:31:58,100 --> 00:32:03,170
whether it's Billie Eilish, whether it's, you know, whoever, Lewis Capaldi- Completely

574
00:32:03,170 --> 00:32:10,919
like, they all have a very distinct identity, a very distinct tone of voice, and they all have worlds that you can disappear- Enter

575
00:32:10,919 --> 00:32:11,930
Yeah, yeah.

576
00:32:11,930 --> 00:32:15,400
And know what you're getting on board for, you know.

577
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:15,460
Mm.

578
00:32:15,460 --> 00:32:18,900
Fans don't even necessarily hit the follow button because they, like- Yeah

579
00:32:18,900 --> 00:32:21,374
love everything that you're putting out on Spotify.

580
00:32:22,140 --> 00:32:24,260
Social media is not a DSP.

581
00:32:24,260 --> 00:32:26,320
It's not a music consumption platform.

582
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:26,340
Mm.

583
00:32:26,340 --> 00:32:32,360
It's a overall vibe consumption platform, and I might follow an artist and, and they're- For the vibe

584
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:32,900
Exactly.

585
00:32:32,900 --> 00:32:33,340
For the vibe.

586
00:32:33,340 --> 00:32:33,620
Yeah, yeah.

587
00:32:33,620 --> 00:32:36,430
Their, their actual musical output might be secondary- Mm

588
00:32:36,430 --> 00:32:41,880
to just, like, the world and the vibe and the, the, the fan activity that I see in the comments as well.

589
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,400
I might just get the sense that, you know

590
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:45,820
Fred Again is a great example- Yeah

591
00:32:45,820 --> 00:32:46,420
That's true.

592
00:32:46,420 --> 00:32:46,520
Yeah.

593
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:56,180
Where, you know, I, I personally like Fred Again's music a lot, but, like, even if I didn't, I might just think that everything that he was doing, I might just find community in what's going on on his Discord- Yeah

594
00:32:56,180 --> 00:33:02,060
which is a very, very, very active Discord community where fans are sharing all sorts of other great music that they've found.

595
00:33:02,060 --> 00:33:03,400
They're doing meetups and stuff.

596
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:03,980
Mm.

597
00:33:03,980 --> 00:33:07,540
So I think have a, a world that- Yeah

598
00:33:07,540 --> 00:33:09,680
people can kind of disappear into.

599
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,640
Um, we try and, we try and cultivate that as much as we can in our artists.

600
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:21,210
And at the very extreme end of the spectrum, you have a campaign that I loved recently in this regard was, um, for Sleep Token, the, um- Mm

601
00:33:21,210 --> 00:33:28,926
the anonymous, uh, uh, British metal band signed, signed here now out of, uh, out of RCA New York.

602
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:35,700
But, um, the absolute kind of rabbit hole that you could fall down-

603
00:33:35,700 --> 00:33:40,780
of piecing together little Easter eggs and coordinates and whatever hidden in the- Yeah

604
00:33:40,780 --> 00:33:41,500
liner notes.

605
00:33:41,500 --> 00:33:46,180
Like, there's a, there's a whole deep dive, you know, um, that you could do on it, and I love that.

606
00:33:46,180 --> 00:33:47,980
It doesn't need to be that- Yeah

607
00:33:47,980 --> 00:33:48,640
circuitous.

608
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:48,960
Yeah, yeah.

609
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:53,760
You know, that's fun, but it doesn't always need to be that because I think some people would hear, like, "Oh my God, like world-building.

610
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,500
That sounds like a whole nother thing that I have to work-" Sounds like Minecraft.

611
00:33:56,500 --> 00:33:57,340
Yes, yes.

612
00:33:57,340 --> 00:33:57,780
Exactly.

613
00:33:57,780 --> 00:33:57,900
Yeah, yeah.

614
00:33:57,900 --> 00:34:01,480
And Minecraft is, uh, is, is, is a fun place to build campaigns as well.

615
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,640
No, and it's, it's, it's a skill in and of itself.

616
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:17,480
Like, some artists are great at it, other artists need to develop it, but it's all, it all kinda comes back to, yeah, like that fan engagement idea of engaging the fans in a way that lets them interact with you in a community.

617
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,660
Also owning that community I think is a big, you know, topic.

618
00:34:20,660 --> 00:34:23,280
Like, I was doing a panel about email list growth.

619
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:23,840
Mm-hmm.

620
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:24,700
That's a big thing.

621
00:34:24,700 --> 00:34:27,380
I mean, I'm sure that's something you guys focus on a lot, right?

622
00:34:27,380 --> 00:34:27,620
Yeah.

623
00:34:27,620 --> 00:34:35,040
So I mean, we, we also in the expansion of my team hired a kind of director fan communities expert- Yeah

624
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:35,780
for the first time- Yeah

625
00:34:35,780 --> 00:34:40,640
which we haven't had, and I think you're seeing a lot of labels leaning into that.

626
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:42,780
Um, labels and management companies- Yeah

627
00:34:42,780 --> 00:34:46,660
um, you know, staffing up in that area of, like, community experts.

628
00:34:46,660 --> 00:34:49,660
So getting away from your, your, your mass communication- Mm

629
00:34:49,660 --> 00:34:54,080
social media platforms, Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, X, whatever.

630
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,120
Instead, what are you doing on Discord?

631
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:57,720
What are you doing- Yeah

632
00:34:57,720 --> 00:34:58,560
on the subreddit?

633
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:02,910
What are you doing on whether it's Laylow or Open Stage- Yeah, yeah

634
00:35:02,910 --> 00:35:06,520
or, you know, your kind of, um, your f- your first party kind of direct fan.

635
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:11,160
Things like Instagram broadcast channels, things like WhatsApp communities and WhatsApp channels as well.

636
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,730
Like, we're experimenting with them- Mm

637
00:35:13,730 --> 00:35:14,300
a lot more.

638
00:35:14,300 --> 00:35:23,800
We just, with, with Kneecap, we just, uh, put a, a bootleg track out that existed exclusively on, on SoundCloud 'cause we wanted it to feel very rough and very- Mm

639
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:28,160
kind of, you know, purely for the fans, a bit more of a street track thing.

640
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:33,220
And that was one that was just exclusively dropped on their WhatsApp community.

641
00:35:33,220 --> 00:35:33,660
Oh, wow.

642
00:35:33,660 --> 00:35:37,060
We didn't, we didn't push it out on, you know, their Instagram feed or on stories or anything.

643
00:35:37,060 --> 00:35:38,880
It kind of just went to the community.

644
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:40,910
We told people about that first- That's crazy

645
00:35:40,910 --> 00:35:42,480
to kind of drive the signups to it.

646
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:42,510
Yeah, yeah.

647
00:35:42,510 --> 00:35:45,380
And I love those direct channels- Yeah

648
00:35:45,380 --> 00:35:47,810
because the conversion rates- Were high, yeah

649
00:35:47,810 --> 00:35:49,940
is, is so much higher there.

650
00:35:49,940 --> 00:35:53,440
Because it's a channel that's, like, really, really direct.

651
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,130
It's not just the feed- Yeah

652
00:35:55,130 --> 00:35:58,790
where as well as, "Oh look, there's a Kneecap single."

653
00:35:58,790 --> 00:36:01,240
"Oh look, here's something awful that happened in the news today."

654
00:36:01,240 --> 00:36:01,410
Yeah.

655
00:36:01,410 --> 00:36:02,740
"Oh, here's a recipe for pasta."

656
00:36:02,740 --> 00:36:02,750
Yeah.

657
00:36:02,750 --> 00:36:03,300
"Oh, here's"

658
00:36:03,300 --> 00:36:03,860
Do you know what I mean?

659
00:36:03,860 --> 00:36:07,110
Like the kind of content soup- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

660
00:36:07,110 --> 00:36:11,780
um, where everything is thrown together and kind of just loses its shape and loses its meaning.

661
00:36:11,780 --> 00:36:14,920
I love those, those direct-to-fan- Yeah

662
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:15,880
properties and channels.

663
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:20,810
And, and another artist I'll call out as being wonderful at cultivating those is Arlo Parks, who we've- Mm

664
00:36:20,810 --> 00:36:23,216
been working with for

665
00:36:23,216 --> 00:36:25,756
I don't know, 5 years now at this point.

666
00:36:25,756 --> 00:36:31,436
And on her first album, a lot of which the rollout took place, uh, during the lockdowns.

667
00:36:31,436 --> 00:36:31,716
Mm.

668
00:36:31,716 --> 00:36:36,766
So we were very limited in what we could do in terms of, like, signings in a record store- Yeah, yeah

669
00:36:36,766 --> 00:36:41,336
and performances and, you know, all those other grassroots things that you wanna be doing, you couldn't do.

670
00:36:41,336 --> 00:36:52,876
So we were doing things like poetry is a big, is a big kind of facet of Arlo's appeal and, and she's a wonderful poet as well as being a, a songwriter and a musician and a, and she's such a multi-hyphenate.

671
00:36:52,876 --> 00:36:58,356
And she was hosting these poetry readings, poetry slams almost, on Zoom- Mm

672
00:36:58,356 --> 00:37:03,116
which you had to sign up to, you know, be in with a chance to, to attend this thing.

673
00:37:03,116 --> 00:37:05,076
Arlo would read some of her own poetry- Wow

674
00:37:05,076 --> 00:37:19,576
and the most beautiful thing was so many of Arlo's fan base have always been themselves artists, writers, poets, painters, you know, that's just a, a wonderful kind of, um, characteristic of her, of her core fan base.

675
00:37:19,576 --> 00:37:21,736
And they were sharing their own poems on there.

676
00:37:21,736 --> 00:37:22,096
Yeah, yeah.

677
00:37:22,096 --> 00:37:24,156
Arlo was giving kind of feedback on them.

678
00:37:24,156 --> 00:37:30,826
They're then, like, they were all swapping Instagram handles and there's now, like, an Instagram DM chat which Arlo is in- Oh, that's so cool

679
00:37:30,826 --> 00:37:32,216
where they, like, share music and stuff.

680
00:37:32,216 --> 00:37:34,646
So I, I love stories like that- Yeah

681
00:37:34,646 --> 00:37:38,706
where we can just give fans something that feels really personal and really cool.

682
00:37:38,706 --> 00:37:41,836
And not every artist has the, time- Yeah

683
00:37:41,836 --> 00:37:47,636
to necessarily set that up, but I think that when you're starting out, you have no excuse not to do that.

684
00:37:47,636 --> 00:37:47,776
Yeah.

685
00:37:47,776 --> 00:37:48,296
Do you know what I mean?

686
00:37:48,296 --> 00:37:51,870
Like, when you're in that grassroots phase, it needs to be a kind of all the taps on all the time.

687
00:37:52,616 --> 00:37:59,016
And those are the people that come out to shows, those are the people that end up buying merch, those are the people that actually engage- Yeah

688
00:37:59,016 --> 00:38:12,456
which then, you know, drives- And I'm very, I'm very interested in, in these, these plethora of direct fan platforms, uh, especially the ones that have dashboards that let you follow your super fans around the various kind of interactions- Oh

689
00:38:12,456 --> 00:38:13,226
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

690
00:38:13,226 --> 00:38:27,666
And be like, "Okay, so we know that these guys, not only have they streamed the new single more than 10 times within the first 2 weeks that it's been out, but we also know that they have spent over $50 on the merch store- Yeah, yeah

691
00:38:27,666 --> 00:38:31,636
in the past 12 months, and we also know that they've clicked through to a gig."

692
00:38:31,636 --> 00:38:35,996
I think we're not quite there yet, but I dream of a world- Yeah, yeah

693
00:38:35,996 --> 00:38:38,556
where, where there is that much data- Yeah

694
00:38:38,556 --> 00:38:46,836
at artists and their teams' fingertips to be able to be like, "Okay, I know exactly who these 50 people are- Key customers

695
00:38:46,836 --> 00:38:48,316
out of my following base- Yeah

696
00:38:48,316 --> 00:38:50,116
that might be in the tens of 1000."

697
00:38:50,116 --> 00:38:50,596
Yep.

698
00:38:50,596 --> 00:38:57,036
But there's gonna be, within those tens of 1000, 100 or so maybe people that, like- Really

699
00:38:57,036 --> 00:38:58,566
really hang on your every word.

700
00:38:58,566 --> 00:38:59,176
The super fans, yeah.

701
00:38:59,176 --> 00:39:02,356
And really, you know, and super fans I think has become- Yeah, a term

702
00:39:02,356 --> 00:39:03,526
this, this, this very- Yeah, yeah.

703
00:39:03,526 --> 00:39:12,266
thrown-around term, and it's a hot topic, but for good reason because, you know, I think that as the streaming market begins to mature, you know- Mm-hmm

704
00:39:12,266 --> 00:39:19,036
we're seeing the year-on-year growth from streaming begin to kind of plateau in some markets, not in others.

705
00:39:19,036 --> 00:39:23,886
I think that, you know, I'll be watching with interest what Spotify launch when they- Yeah

706
00:39:23,886 --> 00:39:27,676
supposedly launch this kind of pro super fan tier.

707
00:39:27,676 --> 00:39:47,266
I know that, I believe Hi-Fi, um, high, high fidelity streaming is included within that, but you know, I'm not the first person to suggest that there might be a future in which there's all these mid-tier price points, there's all these super plus, plus price points that you might be able to introduce for really, really unbeatable- Yeah

708
00:39:47,266 --> 00:39:49,196
direct-to-fan experiences.

709
00:39:49,196 --> 00:39:54,696
You know, I love, I'm always super inspired by what is going on in the K-pop world- Yeah

710
00:39:54,696 --> 00:39:57,096
and the Korean music market- It's insane

711
00:39:57,096 --> 00:40:00,465
a lot of, a lot of the, the markets in the Far East generally, they're years- Yeah, yeah

712
00:40:00,465 --> 00:40:09,436
ahead of what we're, we're doing here in terms of the amount of micro-interactions and thus micro-transactions- Mm

713
00:40:09,436 --> 00:40:11,516
you can have between an artist and a fan.

714
00:40:11,516 --> 00:40:19,656
You know, you'll have, you'll have artist apps where you can pay, not much, you know, like 50 cents or something to get like a voice memo- Mm

715
00:40:19,656 --> 00:40:21,486
from your favorite artist or whatever.

716
00:40:21,486 --> 00:40:25,080
And that's all happening within the artist's own, uh, kind of direct app.

717
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:30,910
So I feel like if I was ever in the position where I'm the digital advisor to Beyoncé or- Yeah

718
00:40:30,910 --> 00:40:34,949
Harry Styles or whatever, I'd be like, "Let's get you off Instagram."

719
00:40:34,949 --> 00:40:36,220
"Let's get you off Twitter.

720
00:40:36,220 --> 00:40:41,510
You'll maybe post on there once per album cycle, but most of it's gonna be happening in an environment-" Oh.

721
00:40:41,510 --> 00:40:42,970
" that we can control-" Mm.

722
00:40:42,970 --> 00:40:47,520
" where we can introduce all these fun little additional offerings for the super fans."

723
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:52,060
I, I, I think we're not far away from, from Western artists leaning into that more.

724
00:40:52,060 --> 00:41:06,494
It, it's really interesting you reframe it like this because a few big artists experimented with that idea, but the flip side of the coin was, "Let's not be on DSPs."

725
00:41:07,220 --> 00:41:07,660
The- Mm

726
00:41:07,660 --> 00:41:19,820
the migration was away from, "Oh, I don't like the Spotify stream, uh, streaming payout, so I want my super app where my music is monetized- Mm

727
00:41:19,820 --> 00:41:21,740
at a level where I'm comfortable with."

728
00:41:21,740 --> 00:41:24,910
Whereas here, it's really the engagement that- Mm-hmm

729
00:41:24,910 --> 00:41:25,940
is migrated.

730
00:41:25,940 --> 00:41:26,290
Mm-hmm.

731
00:41:26,290 --> 00:41:28,180
And, uh, I find that fascinating.

732
00:41:28,180 --> 00:41:29,220
Well, I think it's, yeah.

733
00:41:29,220 --> 00:41:30,782
It's, it's people

734
00:41:31,420 --> 00:41:34,780
We're now however many years into social media, right?

735
00:41:34,780 --> 00:41:36,140
20 years in social media.

736
00:41:36,140 --> 00:41:37,260
When did Facebook start?

737
00:41:37,260 --> 00:41:38,096
2005?

738
00:41:40,860 --> 00:41:41,620
2006?

739
00:41:41,620 --> 00:41:41,650
Around there.

740
00:41:41,650 --> 00:41:42,700
I'm not sure exactly when.

741
00:41:42,700 --> 00:41:44,000
I think it's about 20 years ago.

742
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,440
I got it when I went to university in 2006.

743
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:46,450
Yeah.

744
00:41:46,450 --> 00:41:50,400
'Cause that, those were the days where you had to have a university email address.

745
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:50,640
Yeah.

746
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,110
It was still tied to a c- it was still a college thing.

747
00:41:53,110 --> 00:41:53,488
Yeah.

748
00:41:54,146 --> 00:41:57,360
then they opened it up to everyone's mom and dad and so- So '05, '06.

749
00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:57,890
Yeah, yeah.

750
00:41:57,890 --> 00:41:58,200
Yeah, yeah.

751
00:41:58,200 --> 00:41:59,950
So anyway, we're 20 years in, let's say- Yeah

752
00:41:59,950 --> 00:42:09,940
to social media, and I think that we've all seen the risks of building your audience on another person's platform, right?

753
00:42:09,940 --> 00:42:09,979
Yeah.

754
00:42:09,979 --> 00:42:17,440
Where you're kind of renting your audience, because we know that there have been so many pivots and so many algorithm changes.

755
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:29,140
You know, if you work in social media, you r- they're all seared into your brain of, like, when they suddenly started deprioritizing certain types of content in newsfeed, or suddenly if your video was a, was a live video- Yeah

756
00:42:29,140 --> 00:42:31,329
it would become s- super, super juiced.

757
00:42:31,329 --> 00:42:35,790
And so everyone was just doing these silly live things that would even be just a static image- Yeah, yeah

758
00:42:35,790 --> 00:42:37,680
but they'd upload it as a live video- Yeah, a live video.

759
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:38,800
because they knew it would- Yeah

760
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:39,980
be good for the algorithm.

761
00:42:39,980 --> 00:42:45,000
And so your overnight platforms can make these, these changes- Mm

762
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:50,280
and your content strategy suddenly is worthless, and your audience suddenly is, you know- Harder to reach

763
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:51,300
way harder to reach.

764
00:42:51,300 --> 00:42:55,250
And that's another thing, is the throttling of organic reach, right?

765
00:42:55,250 --> 00:42:55,269
Yep, yep, yep.

766
00:42:55,269 --> 00:42:59,890
That's a thing that, that, that has, um, has, has, has been a major thing to contend with.

767
00:42:59,890 --> 00:43:10,320
And so I think we've all seen the danger of, yeah, putting all of your eggs into building this, building this audience strategy on a platform that might not even be around in a couple- Mm

768
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:10,340
of years.

769
00:43:10,340 --> 00:43:11,150
You know, look at the- Yeah

770
00:43:11,150 --> 00:43:14,580
look at the potential still of TikTok being banned in this country.

771
00:43:14,580 --> 00:43:16,382
We still don't know what's going on there.

772
00:43:17,220 --> 00:43:21,580
So I think that that's why I'm always a big fan of, like- Oh, yeah

773
00:43:21,580 --> 00:43:22,480
mailing list.

774
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:22,832
Yeah.

775
00:43:23,720 --> 00:43:24,260
SMS.

776
00:43:24,260 --> 00:43:24,680
SMS list.

777
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:25,080
SMS is huge.

778
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:25,880
Whatever it is.

779
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:27,000
Discord, you know.

780
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:40,120
Just, like, things where your relationship as the custodian of that data is, is just, it's y- your, your, your kind of portability of that data is ensured- Mm

781
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:40,890
much more than it is.

782
00:43:40,890 --> 00:43:41,720
'Cause that's the thing.

783
00:43:41,720 --> 00:43:48,530
If you suddenly have a new platform that starts tomorrow, you might have however many on Instagram, however many- Yeah

784
00:43:48,530 --> 00:43:49,160
on TikTok.

785
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:52,000
Migrating people to a new platform is very hard.

786
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:52,230
Yeah.

787
00:43:52,230 --> 00:43:54,340
And it takes a long time, you know?

788
00:43:54,340 --> 00:43:57,040
So become a specialist by all means- Yeah

789
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:02,040
but also be mindful of the fact that things change, the winds change.

790
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:02,400
Yeah.

791
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:06,720
The email list is also the highest ROI channel, in my opinion- Yeah

792
00:44:06,720 --> 00:44:10,260
because it's, it's, like, the cheapest thing to collect.

793
00:44:10,260 --> 00:44:10,440
Mm-hmm.

794
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:21,060
I mean, in terms of, you know, you can do it mostly for free, but even running ads to generate leads to, to, into an email list is very cheap, and it's where people buy.

795
00:44:21,060 --> 00:44:23,720
It's, like, where you can actually sell merch and concert tickets.

796
00:44:23,720 --> 00:44:27,860
So it's the cheapest thing to collect and the highest, you know- And I also think-

797
00:44:27,860 --> 00:44:28,620
yielding one.

798
00:44:28,620 --> 00:44:28,860
Yeah.

799
00:44:28,860 --> 00:44:29,360
Yeah.

800
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:30,160
Cheapest thing to collect.

801
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:35,660
You know, we, we have always done just, like, super old-fashioned, like, street team- Yeah

802
00:44:35,660 --> 00:44:36,540
at the show.

803
00:44:36,540 --> 00:44:36,640
Yeah.

804
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:38,230
Walk around with a clipboard, be like- Exactly

805
00:44:38,230 --> 00:44:39,440
"Who wants to join the mailing list?"

806
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:41,520
Like, I still see huge value in- 100%

807
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:42,820
just having a team member down- Yeah

808
00:44:42,820 --> 00:44:48,600
just, like, capturing, cap- You might come away with 50, 100 new names, you know, per show, and that's great.

809
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:57,500
I think that what really interests me about, about email as a channel in particular, and this is a kind of nerdy side topic I guess, but, like, so the rise of Substack, right?

810
00:44:57,500 --> 00:44:57,720
Mm-hmm.

811
00:44:57,720 --> 00:45:05,580
The fact that you have so many prominent journalists from everywhere, from The New York Times to Wired to, you know, whatever, Vanity Fair.

812
00:45:05,580 --> 00:45:08,880
Like, what were once these top, top-tier magazines- Mm

813
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:15,490
journalism is now kind of almost being unbundled in the way that the song was unbundled from the album with the launch- Mm

814
00:45:15,490 --> 00:45:17,552
of, like, iTunes and, and, and digital download.

815
00:45:18,110 --> 00:45:26,160
And so now if you love a certain sports writer or a certain culture writer or whatever but you don't wanna pay for a whole New York Times- Yeah, yeah

816
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:32,880
subscription or you don't wanna pay for a whole newspaper or whatever, these writers are now going off and launching their own- Their own

817
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:33,400
Substack.

818
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:33,610
Yeah.

819
00:45:33,610 --> 00:45:34,480
And I love that.

820
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,480
I spend way too much money on way too many Substacks.

821
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:42,720
And that's a separate thing, but I find, I don't know, just your inbox- Mm

822
00:45:42,720 --> 00:45:48,760
now being not just where you get, like, a reminder about an Amazon thing that you forgot you ordered.

823
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:52,000
Um, but, like, some of your, some of your favorite writing.

824
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:52,010
Yeah.

825
00:45:52,010 --> 00:45:57,900
Like, some of the things that you look forward to getting most are now coming through in people's inboxes.

826
00:45:57,900 --> 00:46:01,810
And so I think that it just makes email even more important as a channel.

827
00:46:01,810 --> 00:46:04,520
And I think some artists have experimented with that quite well.

828
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:06,250
Like, Dua Lipa runs- Yeah, yeah

829
00:46:06,250 --> 00:46:12,277
a, um, great newsletter called Service95, I think it's called.Which is sometimes about music- Yeah

830
00:46:12,277 --> 00:46:14,257
but it's also just a channel for her- Yeah

831
00:46:14,257 --> 00:46:16,938
to have interesting- Art.

832
00:46:16,938 --> 00:46:20,458
artists on there, guests, you know, kind of restaurant recommendations- Mm

833
00:46:20,458 --> 00:46:22,348
travel recommendations, whatever it is.

834
00:46:22,348 --> 00:46:28,048
Um, and I think the blurring of that line is, is fantastic, and I think you're gonna see more innovation in that space.

835
00:46:28,048 --> 00:46:30,958
So Tom, with all this in mind-

836
00:46:30,958 --> 00:46:38,548
if you, if you were an independent artist or the manager of an independent artist and you had 100 bucks- 100 bucks.

837
00:46:38,548 --> 00:46:38,708
Ooh

838
00:46:38,708 --> 00:46:41,208
to spend, to- Lunch.

839
00:46:42,268 --> 00:46:42,928
100 bucks.

840
00:46:42,928 --> 00:46:43,548
Dinner.

841
00:46:43,548 --> 00:46:44,088
Is it New York?

842
00:46:44,088 --> 00:46:45,328
To, to get things moving.

843
00:46:45,328 --> 00:46:46,628
I didn't, I didn't say where.

844
00:46:46,628 --> 00:46:47,148
Okay.

845
00:46:47,148 --> 00:46:47,758
Sorry.

846
00:46:47,758 --> 00:46:51,828
But, uh- I'm thinking like a New Yorker where I'm like- Where or how would you allocate that- Do you know-

847
00:46:51,828 --> 00:46:56,068
around a single release to put a bit of context on that?

848
00:46:56,068 --> 00:46:57,988
I, it would, it would go to content for me- Mm-hmm

849
00:46:57,988 --> 00:46:58,708
to be honest with you.

850
00:46:58,708 --> 00:47:11,230
I say this, I say this often to people when they're like, "We're doing an ads plan on Instagram for, you know, I've got a, I've got 100 bucks for this market," and I, and I'm like, "You might as well throw

851
00:47:11,868 --> 00:47:13,028
I'm, I'm sorry to say.

852
00:47:13,028 --> 00:47:20,438
Like, I don't, I don't believe in the ROI of such small spends- Ad spends, yeah

853
00:47:20,438 --> 00:47:20,658
like that.

854
00:47:20,658 --> 00:47:24,048
S- such a small ad spend is just gonna be a drop in the bucket.

855
00:47:24,048 --> 00:47:25,598
I would say just put it into content.

856
00:47:25,598 --> 00:47:26,188
Mm-hmm.

857
00:47:26,188 --> 00:47:29,708
Take that money and put it into couple cool videos.

858
00:47:29,708 --> 00:47:34,368
With 100 bucks you could probably rent a studio space, you could probably bring a couple of looks down- Yeah

859
00:47:34,368 --> 00:47:37,508
you know, and just make 10 TikToks.

860
00:47:37,508 --> 00:47:38,068
100%.

861
00:47:38,068 --> 00:47:40,978
That would be, that, that honestly would be my recommendation to a manager.

862
00:47:40,978 --> 00:47:42,968
And creative is the new targeting.

863
00:47:42,968 --> 00:47:43,468
That's like- Totally

864
00:47:43,468 --> 00:47:44,958
one of the things I'm seeing- Yeah

865
00:47:44,958 --> 00:47:46,488
with running ads is like- Yeah

866
00:47:46,488 --> 00:47:54,938
you can run the s- same 2 or same audiences, same targeting, same everything in 2 different creatives and get wildly different results.

867
00:47:54,938 --> 00:47:55,888
Well, well it goes back to what we were- Yeah

868
00:47:55,888 --> 00:47:56,518
talking about earlier- Yeah

869
00:47:56,518 --> 00:47:57,528
about test and learn- Exactly

870
00:47:57,528 --> 00:47:58,708
and iterate, you know?

871
00:47:58,708 --> 00:47:58,948
Yeah, yeah.

872
00:47:58,948 --> 00:48:04,328
Like, the, your approach on, on, on paid should be the same as your approach on organic- Organic

873
00:48:04,328 --> 00:48:05,438
which is A/B testing, you know?

874
00:48:05,438 --> 00:48:06,048
Iterate.

875
00:48:06,048 --> 00:48:06,548
Yeah.

876
00:48:06,548 --> 00:48:07,508
Completely.

877
00:48:07,508 --> 00:48:08,328
Completely.

878
00:48:08,328 --> 00:48:11,488
Um, Tom, I think we're coming up on time, but- Oh, wow.

879
00:48:11,488 --> 00:48:11,958
Okay

880
00:48:11,958 --> 00:48:26,368
we, we do like to set aside some time at the end to ask you what is the best piece of advice you've received, either professionally or just as a human that you'd like to impart on anyone listening?

881
00:48:26,368 --> 00:48:26,846
Oh, wow.

882
00:48:27,488 --> 00:48:28,848
Can be multiple.

883
00:48:30,268 --> 00:48:31,828
Gosh, that's such a great question.

884
00:48:31,828 --> 00:48:34,727
I wish I'd, uh, had more time to think about what I would say.

885
00:48:34,727 --> 00:48:37,048
That's why we reserve a little bit of time at the end.

886
00:48:37,048 --> 00:48:39,347
If it, if it makes this easier- Yeah

887
00:48:39,347 --> 00:48:41,568
you can say 2 piece of advice.

888
00:48:41,568 --> 00:48:42,308
Yeah.

889
00:48:42,308 --> 00:48:44,778
Maybe I'll do one professional- Yeah

890
00:48:44,778 --> 00:48:45,608
and one personal.

891
00:48:45,608 --> 00:48:46,248
Nice.

892
00:48:46,248 --> 00:48:53,788
I think one, one professional would be, and this is within the context of, of, of, like, working at a record company- Yeah

893
00:48:53,788 --> 00:49:00,548
so this is not necessarily geared towards the independent artist, but if we have listeners that, like, work at a label- Yeah

894
00:49:00,548 --> 00:49:09,748
I would say, uh, 2 music industry pieces of advice that I've been given both by, um, my former boss, uh, Tom March, who now runs Capitol.

895
00:49:09,748 --> 00:49:15,048
One is, like, he's a big fan of, like, you have to PR your PR, and you have to market your marketing.

896
00:49:15,048 --> 00:49:15,628
Do you know what I mean?

897
00:49:15,628 --> 00:49:29,678
And that means, like, in a world where the question is asked more and more loudly of, like, what do labels actually do for artists, do artists need labels when I can just upload my song on Spotify and just go viral- Yeah, yeah.

898
00:49:29,678 --> 00:49:31,868
like that, what do labels even do?

899
00:49:31,868 --> 00:49:35,888
I think, like, he was a big believer in, like, top managers.

900
00:49:35,888 --> 00:49:36,148
Mm.

901
00:49:36,148 --> 00:49:37,608
They wanna see what you're doing.

902
00:49:37,608 --> 00:49:41,728
Don't assume that everyone knows all the hard work that you're doing, 'cause it is hard work.

903
00:49:41,728 --> 00:49:41,928
Yeah.

904
00:49:41,928 --> 00:49:47,048
You know, it's a proper grind, and there's 100 little tasks that go into- That go into the whole

905
00:49:47,048 --> 00:49:47,288
Yeah

906
00:49:47,288 --> 00:49:48,088
totally.

907
00:49:48,088 --> 00:49:52,468
And let them and the wider team see what you're doing.

908
00:49:52,468 --> 00:49:53,168
You know, like- Mm

909
00:49:53,168 --> 00:49:56,268
a manager needs to see, like, this is what the

910
00:49:56,268 --> 00:50:01,548
And I'm not talking about just, like, busy work for busy work's sake, you know, to kind of make yourself look busier-

911
00:50:01,548 --> 00:50:02,288
than you are.

912
00:50:02,288 --> 00:50:05,428
But what I am talking about is don't assume that everyone knows- Yeah

913
00:50:05,428 --> 00:50:08,028
what's, what's going on, and don't be afraid to shout about it.

914
00:50:08,028 --> 00:50:08,908
That was a good piece of advice.

915
00:50:08,908 --> 00:50:09,348
Mm.

916
00:50:09,348 --> 00:50:13,948
And the other one was just that music is a relationships game, you know?

917
00:50:13,948 --> 00:50:19,208
Like, it's a very, very interpersonal relationships-led business.

918
00:50:19,208 --> 00:50:19,488
Yeah.

919
00:50:19,488 --> 00:50:21,698
And so just be nice to people-

920
00:50:21,698 --> 00:50:29,310
and remember people's names and take an interest in what they do, and don't be a, you know, like, "I'm looking over your shoulder to see- Yeah

921
00:50:29,310 --> 00:50:33,760
who else I can talk to at this party, who else can, can do something for me," or whatever.

922
00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:33,780
Yeah.

923
00:50:33,780 --> 00:50:40,990
Like, the, the dude that you might think right now is a kind of nobody that you've got, like, stuck talking to- Yeah, yeah

924
00:50:40,990 --> 00:50:45,580
at this mixer might in 5 years be, you know, really on the up.

925
00:50:45,580 --> 00:50:46,100
You know?

926
00:50:46,100 --> 00:50:48,660
And I'm not saying you should only be nice to people- Yeah, yeah, no

927
00:50:48,660 --> 00:50:50,990
because you expect something in return one day.

928
00:50:50,990 --> 00:50:51,280
It's a good nag.

929
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:52,530
But it's a, but it's a wise- Yeah

930
00:50:52,530 --> 00:50:54,900
piece of advice of just, like, remember- It's a good karma thing.

931
00:50:54,900 --> 00:50:54,970
Yeah

932
00:50:54,970 --> 00:50:55,540
remember people.

933
00:50:55,540 --> 00:50:56,220
Exactly.

934
00:50:56,220 --> 00:50:56,250
Yeah.

935
00:50:56,250 --> 00:50:56,780
That's it, man.

936
00:50:56,780 --> 00:50:57,360
It's just like- Yeah

937
00:50:57,360 --> 00:50:58,420
in personal life, you know.

938
00:50:58,420 --> 00:51:01,300
Like, be good and, and hopefully good things will happen to you.

939
00:51:01,300 --> 00:51:10,480
And I guess personal advice, best piece of personal advice I've ever been given, I'll s- I'll go to something that my wonderful mum- Mm

940
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:15,520
taught me at a young age, which is the power of a good, uh, apology.

941
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:29,060
I think that a lot of people when they mess up, which we all do, sometimes can be quite proud and can sometimes be quite stubborn and really don't want to just, like, throw their hands up and be like, "Look, I really, I really screwed this up."

942
00:51:29,060 --> 00:51:29,280
Yeah.

943
00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:32,766
Um, and, "Look, I wanna, I wanna do better and I wanna meet you in the middle here."

944
00:51:33,460 --> 00:51:37,700
Sometimes there can be a tendency, maybe it's a male thing as well- Yeah

945
00:51:37,700 --> 00:51:40,560
to just be a little bit too proud-

946
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:42,880
to say those words, "I'm sorry," you know?

947
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:43,800
Elton John- Yeah

948
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:44,360
said it best.

949
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:44,370
Yeah, yeah.

950
00:51:44,370 --> 00:51:46,900
"Sorry always seems to be the hardest word."

951
00:51:46,900 --> 00:51:49,020
Uh, and my mum told me- What, what a quote to end on.

952
00:51:49,020 --> 00:51:49,340
Yeah.

953
00:51:49,340 --> 00:51:49,450
Yeah

954
00:51:49,450 --> 00:51:53,400
And my mum told me when I was a kid, like, master the art of a good apology.

955
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:53,830
Wow.

956
00:51:53,830 --> 00:51:54,260
So yeah.

957
00:51:54,260 --> 00:51:54,410
That's great.

958
00:51:54,410 --> 00:51:56,440
And that's a professional and a personal- That's great advice.

959
00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:56,720
Yeah.

960
00:51:56,720 --> 00:51:57,180
That's

961
00:51:57,180 --> 00:51:57,540
Wow.

962
00:51:57,540 --> 00:51:58,760
Thank you so much, Tom.

963
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:00,798
It was such a pleasure to have you on today.

964
00:52:01,460 --> 00:52:01,880
Awesome.

965
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:04,798
Thank you everyone for tuning in, and we'll catch you on the next one.