Money Matters Episode 338- Fiduciary in All Things w/ George Kinder

Money Matters Episode 338

[00:00:00] What I came to realize was that if we had a fiduciary standard that was toward the truth, toward people, toward democracy and toward the planet, that a lot of the problems that we're seeing in the world would just go away overnight, and you could still have the incredible entrepreneurial energy, the competitiveness and all of that that has made our, our growth through the capitalist kind of society really sing for us.

But we'd know that it was. Of the people, by the people and for the people same time.

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: Imagine waking up in a world where every institution, your bank, your government, your newsfeed, was legally and morally required to put your best interest in the planet's ahead of its own. That's not a sci-fi script.

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: That's the world today's guest is actively trying to build. Welcome back to Money Matters. I'm Chris, and today I'm joined once again by George Kinder, the father of life planning, and the mind behind the new [00:01:00] fiduciary and all things movement, Fiat. time George was here, we talked about how to design a life of freedom around what matters most to you. This time we're zooming out. What happens when civilization itself becomes fiduciary? How do mindfulness and deep listening turn into political and cultural change? And what does all of this mean for you? Your money and your future? If you're a financial advisor or just someone who's tired of not knowing who to trust?

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: This episode is for you, George. Welcome,, welcome back to the show.

George Kinder: Great to be back. , Chris, , that was quite a, yeah. You nailed it. Uh, in terms of what we're after here, well done.

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: I, I have a list of questions here I'm gonna go through , and I don't want to miss that opportunity while I have you on the show. On the other hand, I do want to catch up a bit, and you have actually, from the last time we talked to now you moved outside of the us you've got a whole thing that we're gonna go into , and pick your brain there.

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: But how was that, how was the transition and the move and everything?

George Kinder: Well, it's been, it's been very [00:02:00] exciting , and it's, uh, it's a little strange for somebody who should have been retired many, many, many years ago, if not decades ago, to be doing, 'cause I'm launching a startup over here in London. And it's a global startup, so I'm back in the States a lot, , but I become more of a global kind of citizen and, and thinking globally.

George Kinder: And as you know, I, I do that anyway. That's, I, I wanna make the world a better place. That's what we're all about here, so been very exciting.

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: I think that way too, as a global citizen. It's like, how can we leave the planet better than we found it? I. Well, so it, you know, it's been over a year since we did that episode, and the last time you were on the show, um, you launched the fiduciary, you've launched this, the fiduciary and all things movement. How do you describe Fiat to someone who's hearing about it for the very first time?

George Kinder: Yeah, so I, I think the first thing it, it, Fiat is an acronym for fiduciary in all things. The first thing that I've had to learn and recognize is that [00:03:00] not everybody knows what fiduciary means. So I, you gotta get, you gotta go back to that. , you and I are in the financial industry, so it's a term that's used quite a bit and it's occasionally controversial, but it's a great term.

George Kinder: , It comes from the Latin fee days, which means trust or trustworthy and, , and or truth and, um, and so fiduciary. As a standard, it's considered a standard, and a fiduciary standard is one that is dedicated to your clients ahead of your own self concern. , if you're a, a democracy, a Blinken said it best.

George Kinder: He said it's of the people, by the people and for the people. So it's a fiduciary standard toward. People, , in finance, in, in the stock market and all that. One of the underpinnings of capitalism, , and it's controversial because it's got an edginess that doesn't always satisfy us, is that you [00:04:00] place the shareholders first.

George Kinder: And so what fiduciary in all things is about is noticing that there have been economists call them again, a big term, negative externalities. , These are unintended consequences of, of various corporate or government activities of large organizations. And what I came to realize was that if we had a fiduciary standard that was toward the truth.

George Kinder: Toward people, toward democracy and toward the planet that a lot of the problems that we're seeing in the world would just go away overnight. And you could still have, the incredible entrepreneurial energy, the competitiveness, and all of that that has made our,, our growth through, the capitalist, , kind of society, , really sing for us.

George Kinder: But , we'd know that it was of the people, by the people and for the people at the same time.

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: . So that, yeah, I forget, we are in the, industry. We, when we throw fiduciary around a lot, but [00:05:00] for somebody who's outside of the industry, it's good to go back and say, you know, truth, the, the root of that word, um, is definitely a good thing in some of the, , thing, . here.

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: We talked about democracy and how this could work for, and, , not just our industry, but outside of our industry. When you came here last time and we talked, you had just written the book where we dived into those domains of freedom, right? E each moment, your life and civilization. How did that framework, evolve into the foundation for the fiat movement?

George Kinder: So the, the book is called, do you mind, I'm just gonna show it. Here we go. It still, it's still fresh and it's it's an easy read and it's profound. So if you wanna kind of dive into deep thinking about where we are and where you are in your life, 'cause it's also about each person's life. , So it's the three domains of freedom.

George Kinder: Each moment is yours. Your life is yours, civilization is yours. So each moment is yours. Each of [00:06:00] these, I, I've been passionate about freedom, Chris, since. I think since I was born, I think it goes way, way back and, , but certainly in my adult life, really passionate about freedom. So I've explored it for myself.

George Kinder: That's each moment is yours. So how do we make it so that every moment in our life, we feel that experience? I, I, people call it happiness, but I think it's more than happiness. It's more like joy or flourishing in some way. So how do we do that? And that's been one of my passions. And then for clients as a financial advisor, and this was also true for my own life.

George Kinder: How do you make the story of your life, the trajectory of your life, one that is constantly moving you toward greater layers of freedom in your life. And so that's the second one you, you ask, well, how does this all get to fiat? Well, the third domain of freedom is civilization, and that's one that I, I think up until the last 10 or 20 years.

George Kinder: We didn't question that much. We thought, yeah, we're all moving forward. We know [00:07:00] what that is. Uh, democracy is it basically, and we're moving forward with it. But I think we've come to doubt it in in many ways. And, the polarized society that we have right now, the, the feeling of dystopia, uh, of really crazy times and , and civilization is yours, is something that I think.

George Kinder: As a species, we're now coming to a place where humanity covers the whole earth and can speak to each other. So it's like humanity has come together, even though we see ourselves polarizing and breaking apart. Maybe three great cultures, maybe four. I, I don't know whether they're great cultures, but they're powerful cultures and, and, um, uh, and so I believe that humanity is meant to,

George Kinder: govern themselves, really. And so the notion is how do we move from this time that is challenging for us right now into something that will actually [00:08:00] work sustainably? For our children, our grandchildren, our great-grandchildren going forward, generations, many generations ahead. , I went on a world tour, I probably told you about that, where I went from country to country all over the world to find out what people wanted and they want the same thing.

George Kinder: And so what I did was, I mean, they want kindness. They want, , entrepreneurial endeavor. They want an end to corruption. They want an end to war. They want adequate food, , shelter , and, , health for everybody. And, , and they want an end to bigotry. Well, we all want those things. I think most of us, almost all of us.

George Kinder: So fiat was a way of shrinking it into a single sentence, asking or insisting that all organizations place those values , of truth, democracy, the planet, and people ahead of their own self concernt.

George Kinder: That all came out of civilization.

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: , , the idea of self-governed, starting with that. That's a, a lofty goal. , I, love that as a goal. Uh, the idea, I don't remember talking to you about the world tour, but the idea of talking to [00:09:00] everybody and them seeing those same things, kindness, uh, uh, having good health ending to corruption and bigotry, those are great goals to aspire to for, for sure.

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: And it started with these three ideas here, the idea of the self. , The, the story of your life or your client, if it's coming from an advisory perspective, and then the idea of civilization. And you talked about democracy and us being polarized, and we all kind of feel this right now, but there's the other side of it, the positive side where we're global citizens and there's a network and we're all able to communicate.

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: And so that I, I love that as a basis. , and

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: , where you've built this from. one of the things you just mentioned earlier was institutions. You said institutions. often act in their own self-interest. How does Fiat challenge that and what would a truly fiduciary institution look like?

George Kinder: I, I'm pausing because I want everybody to hear that question. That's such [00:10:00] a profound question and I think it's something, as I went around the world, I felt that it was something that every country longed for. And one of the things I didn't mention a moment ago is that everybody wants to know that when they're told things by media and now we've got social media everywhere, then they, that they can trust that it's truthful.

George Kinder: Not, not twisted or polarized. So when you ask about what would a truly fiduciary institution look like, it would speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Um, it would really put. It, its people as well as its consumers and its community first ahead of its own self-interest. Um, so you'd feel the goodness radiate.

George Kinder: One of the things that I think is really beautiful about it is I've, crafted as a single sentence legislative proposal, and one of the things that I think is really beautiful about it is that it would mean that [00:11:00] to become the CEO of a great organization. Of a great corporation, nonprofit, or government, you would, you would have to be really well trained, almost educated, like you go to business school and instead of just being focused on the numbers, you'd focus a lot on what it is to have integrity.

George Kinder: You'd focus a lot on what it is to be of service to people. You'd focus a lot on, Hey, is our advertising really truthful? Or is it twisting the truth this way or that way? You'd focus on, , how would democracy function if we weren't pushing our own agendas? If, if it really were working for people, how would it function?

George Kinder: So you'd have people, we'd look at our, our, our business leaders, and instead of having mixed feelings about many of them, they'd be heroes. I mean, one of the things, I don't know, you, you may have young kids. I have kids that are now in university, but [00:12:00] I, you know, forever, I was like, where are the heroes for our kids?

George Kinder: And you would see them, they'd be everywhere because Fiat would make sure that leaders throughout our society put the truth, democracy, people in the planet ahead of their own selfish, self-centered concerns.

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: . So that's, that, that sounds radical, right? But, but it really should be part of, uh, of democracy and what we're used to. And really just , this, , you know, some of the things you mentioned, the ideas of integrity and service and really that being able to know that these organizations are, are trustful. , You mentioned the media, uh, social media and making sure that the, that,, the things that are coming out are just bottom line, plain language, concise, truthful, right. a, in a, in a big T way. Right. So I . And that's con, uh, the idea that it's one sentence for the legislation.

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: It's concise language, but it's as simple as that. [00:13:00] That really speaks to the point there. Now, you mentioned a year ago when we talked that you had that legislative proposal related to building a fiduciary civilization. Has that proposal advanced or taken new shape? Is that what we are talking about today? I.

George Kinder: We're talking about exactly the same thing, which I think is a virtue, um, uh, because it is so simple. It was designed so that it could, um, be talked about in every country, in every culture. Uh, in every, you know, language or ethnicity that people would understand it. Um, and, uh, and the, and the notion then at that point I was just launching it and now we're seeing people beginning to talk about it.

George Kinder: So you, we have, I have a steering committee and the steering committee as people, they can be from any walks of life. They could be living at home with their kids. They could be, an entrepreneur. They could be, uh. And they could be a teenager, um, or a retired [00:14:00] person, but they, or, or they could be people that are actually in positions of significant leadership.

George Kinder: We want everybody, it's a grassroots movement and so the notion already people are starting to social media post. On their own about it and spreading word about it. So what I see really happening is more podcasts, more conferences are reaching out either to me or to other people to speak about it and more, uh, more interviews.

George Kinder: And so I think , what we're seeing is that it's just beginning to get into the language. And mainly I've emphasized the financial industry 'cause that's been where I was, where I've grown up, and the people who know me, so they're my low hanging fruit. So it's become quite well known there and I think it's about to take a major leap forward there and you take a major leap forward there and it spreads everywhere.

George Kinder: So, uh, so that's, that's really what's happening legislatively. I think the most interesting thing that I've seen is, um, someone [00:15:00] proposed that, uh, there's a, there's this question about Citizens United that has allowed corporations to buy, uh, essentially to buy votes. They get to put a lot of money into the Democratic system.

George Kinder: , And there was a, so that we. Could actually diminish that, not by having to make a constitutional amendment, not by having to win all of Congress to get this vote. 'cause it's so difficult to do that. But just if one state were to say, if you, um, if you intervene in politics as a corporation, you can't do business here.

George Kinder: And that could be done just one state. If one state were to do that, that would impact. The country really in a significant way. So there are ways to get it more toward legislation by narrowing the focus to communities that really care about it. , Really want fiat to work.

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: I, I think that's a, just an awesome message and the idea that it's growing and that we're getting the word out about it., [00:16:00] You mentioned being on different podcasts and conferences and that a little, I'm supposed to be, I'm getting derailed here a little bit 'cause I remember you were gonna be, were gonna be at future proof and I was looking forward to it.

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: And then you got COVID. Is that right? Am I remembering that correctly?

George Kinder: Yeah. Sorry I didn't to,

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: No, that

George Kinder: yeah.

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: that is all right. I'm hoping that they will have you back. Uh, I'm hoping that that will will happen because, uh, I, that was something I was looking forward to, so, um, and as we get this message out, I think that'll be great.

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: But it's going past the advisory services. That's your stopping ground, right? So that's, that's what we're, we're used to. But this, you gave the idea of it getting, into legislation and just one state starting it. Kind of like a domino effect. You get something like that and it gets going.

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: Let me pivot just a little bit because I'd love to talk about mindfulness and with you on the show. , You've long taught that mindfulness makes, uh, people better listeners and therefore better advisors. How does deep [00:17:00] listening play into the Fiat framework on a societal level?

George Kinder: Well, I'm, I'm gonna take you someplace that's pretty, pretty wild here and pretty deep. , First of all, I, listening is so, such an extraordinary thing that we do for each other. And if we think about what a great civilization would be and a great democracy would be, it would be this web of all of us really listening to each other in a respectful way, learning from each other, disagreeing certainly at times , and voting differently, , but still really listening.

George Kinder: And, , so I think of civilization. is based on our thinking, on thought. We've put signposts down the Constitution, uh, the Declaration of Independence. All all of our laws, they're all thought based., , and that's a great thing. But listening is actually more profound. It goes deep inside of us.

George Kinder: 'cause we can do inner listening. There was actually a study of, um, of listening by the , the Scientific American reported [00:18:00] on exactly a year ago, in December of 2024. And that study, uh, taught us something extraordinary, and that is that listening is much, much faster than thinking. And I mean so fast.

George Kinder: You wouldn't, you won't believe it. It's a hundred million times. As fast as thinking because all of our senses are picking up this information from all around us constantly. , And that means that there's layers of information, of knowledge, and certainly of wisdom that is embedded in listening deeply that , we don't tap or we don't touch because we're so busy going with our thoughts and then clinging to our thoughts.

George Kinder: , So I, I think that we're, if I'm a visionary thinking about what the next thousand years will be like, I would say we're moving from an era of great thinking or [00:19:00] maybe the next 5,000 years For all I know from, we're moving from an era of great thinking to great listen. And it's a profound shift. And what it means for fiat and for companies and for, uh, democracy and for civilization is that organizations like businesses.

George Kinder: I, I want any business I engage with to be listening to its communities and listening to the earth. What is it that the earth needs to be , really sustainable? What is it that humanity needs? So I want great listening and I'll give you, this is the place where I'm gonna take you off, way off into this atmosphere here.

George Kinder: So I, I, as a visionary, I've been thinking, you know what, I, looking around, you know, where are , the organizations that are sustainable for millennia? Do we have any. Is democracy the way we have it sustainable for millennia or any of our business [00:20:00] organizations? And I think we'd be hard pressed to say yes.

George Kinder: I think it pretty much, we'd go, , I don't think we're there yet. And so I look, I just look outside me and in this window over here in front of me, there's a tree. And almost everywhere you look, you can see trees. Maybe less so in the desert. Pretty much everywhere you could look, you can see Tree.

George Kinder: A Tree is an organization, it's an organization, , of, let's just talk about the leaves. We're not gonna talk about the roots and the fungi, but it goes all through it. But a, a tree is clearly sustainable and has a sustainable organization that has gone for hundreds of millions of years, right? It's like, wow, it knows how to do it.

George Kinder: So how does a tree behave? Well, those leaves, , a large oak tree. We will have as many as 500,000 leaves. So it's up there with our biggest companies, right? 500,000 leaves, and each of those leaves is listening. To the world around it. [00:21:00] It's listening to insects. When they begin to, to bite it, it sends chemical signals down to the rest of the tree, warning all the other leaves.

George Kinder: Hey, watch out for, these insects. , when the, uh, rain comes, it listens to the rain. It pulls the rain into the tree. When the wind blows it, those leaves. We get such joy looking at trees when the wind is blowing, don't we? I mean, we're just like, oh my God, it's alive. It's so beautiful.

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: Yeah.

George Kinder: get so touched by it, but they're listening for the flexibility of , the branches and all of that.

George Kinder: It listens to the sun photosynthesis, it listens to the chemical composition of the air, and this is the greatest thing about it. So it breathes in carbon dioxide and it out oxygen. So you and I can sit here from thousands and thousands of miles away from each other. Have this incredible deep and meaningful conversation.

George Kinder: All because trees are breathing the carbon [00:22:00] dioxide in and breathing oxygen out. And they never have to. You never see the CEO of a tree cut its head off and take it and park it in some billionaire paradise, off separate from everything else. It's integrated, it's sustainable, , and, , so listening I think is, I think what this next.

George Kinder: , Not just generation, but millennia will be really about, we're about deepening our listening throughout culture.

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: I love it. Yeah, what a great answer there. So I, one of my favorite things to do, I know we talked about, I have, uh, five acres of off-grid property and it's in a pine forest, and one of the things that I love to do is just sit out there and listen to the wind, go through the trees. It is my quiet spot. It is where I like to go.

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: So I I love that. I love that. let's talk a little bit about, , over this past years there have been societal or political shifts. , What social or political shifts reinforce your belief that fiat is needed now more than ever? I,

George Kinder: , I'm really [00:23:00] excited about, ai. I mean, that's the big thing everybody's talking about, and I'm excited about its potential for helping us in , so many ways , and yet. , We're all terrified about it. , We're worried about jobs being lost. We're a lot worried about people manipulating it for their own, again, back to self concern.

George Kinder: And so AI would be one thing where I'd go, , fiat. If fiat were established, AI would have no choice. But to serve the truth, democracy, people and the planet, no choice at all. If it didn't, then whoever was promoting it would get punished in one way or another. So that's the most intriguing thing.

George Kinder: But if you look politically, a couple of things were disturbing to me, politically and economically. , One is that, , the cabinet of the, , of the current administration, it was all billionaires. And , you go, oh, wait a minute. That's not the people. , We're the people here so that happened and that's who are they serving?

George Kinder: And again, you wonder about that. And then [00:24:00] the final thing is the,, the statistic that I heard, you probably have heard it, that there, that the three richest in America and God knows they deserve to to be wealthy for all that they've done. But the three richest in America own as much as 180 million people.

George Kinder: And if you look at that three, three versus here, I'll put it on the screen, versus 180 million, I, I can't put enough fingers in this room to get 180 million. But , the thing is, is fiduciary means trustworthiness. It means care for, it means putting others interests ahead of your own. Do we have a fiduciary society of the people, by the people and for the people?

George Kinder: Or is our fiduciary society for shareholders, where does it weigh? And I, I think clearly it's weighing for shareholders right now, and that says, no, that that's not sustainable. That won't work, uh, for the future. We've got too many dangers coming out of that. We need it to, uh, put the people first.

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: Yeah. , That [00:25:00] whole idea,, yes. If we're not. , If people aren't paying attention, , , the idea of what's become here and what we've seen with the, billionaires outnumbering, everybody, especially in the cabinet and the administration, definitely something that, that's, it's on everybody's radar, I believe.

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: But you started with ai. , Which is , the, you know, it does have the potential to help, but there are the things, , people losing jobs , and, the idea , of putting fiat on top of that. Then things like ethics committees and things that, we see other countries already ahead of the game on this, , insisting on.

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: So if you bake something like that into the pudding, , it, it's, there's no question here, it has to be, they have to do the right thing here.

George Kinder: If I can add one thing to , that's pretty amazing. , So I've written a, an essay on truth because a lot of people talk about we're in a post-truth era and truth is relative and all that. Well, we need. We need, uh, a kind of a bell curve of truth. That's what my article was called. And because as, as citizens, we need to know [00:26:00] that what we're voting on, uh, is, is basically true for our democratic purposes.

George Kinder: We could have disagreements about it still, but we need to know the truthfulness of it, and AI could make that happen overnight. I mean, because AI can judge, you know, how truthful is this has to be a very simple function for it to take on. So in terms of, just in terms of the media being responsible toward, uh, the citizens of the country, and it's not that we don't want everything, uh.

George Kinder: It's not that we don't want, want wild theories. Galileo was once a wild theory and we want his theory. We want those theories out there, but we need a bell curve so that the bulk of what we're getting we know is true. The whole truth and nothing but the truth so that we can actually vote in a way that is responsible.

George Kinder: Yeah, ai. Cool. Yeah.

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: we could sit here and talk forever. I love, I love where we're going with this conversation, but we've got just a few minutes here before the end, so I've gotta probably pick one here. So let me go with this one. If institutions were to align [00:27:00] their goals with humanity, democracy, and truth, the core of fiat, what practical changes would everyday people notice?

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: First?

George Kinder: Um, there, there'd be an end to polarization. Number one, we'd still have our differences, but we'd be able to speak, uh, with ease with each other and, and thoughtfully, respectfully to each other. Um, there would be heroes, as I mentioned earlier, for the first time in, in, at several generations. Perhaps we would find ourselves looking up to people who had, who had become successful, and people who were leading organizations rather than being quite skeptical about them.

George Kinder: We would, all of us would feel so much safer. Feel that we could trust the civilization that we're in, the society that we were in. We would see, we would no longer be seeing corruption around us, and we would see real movement toward the end of war, um, the absolute end of it. So just amazing things would happen right away, [00:28:00] setting up, uh, a civilization that.

George Kinder: Our grandchildren will go, how could you ever live like you used to live? You know? 'cause they will feel this difference in their life. This trustworthiness.

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: Wow. Every single one of those is something awesome to aspire to. , This is great. Just even ending polarization, heroes, having heroes again that we don't have to find out, you know, 30 days later what they, what did they do in the news? Actual people of value, right? I love this. , Able to, , you know, really see an end to war and corruption. Huge, thing to work towards. I love it. , George, we're right here at the end of the show, whatever I forgot to ask you that you'd like to leave listeners with today.

George Kinder: I think if you're a financial advisor, stand up for fiduciary and let the financial institutions run, , that they should become fiduciary in all things. So that's for financial advisors and for consumers or people who are really interested , in fiat. , There's a site fiduciary in all [00:29:00] things.com where you can go and you can speak about it.

George Kinder: You can write a little pledge about why you like it. And you can catch a logo, like the organic logo and put it on your headers and on your social media. And that would be very powerful in terms of spreading , the movement. And I think the final thing is that my, what I'm doing over here in London is I'm bringing this movement into corporations as a way to make them more productive.

George Kinder: And there's astonishing a couple of of studies. One of them says, happiness, happy workers make for far more productive, businesses. But there the statistic is that it's only 13% more productive. The study that I work from is from Bain and Company, and it says that inspired workers are a 125% more productive than a satisfied worker.

George Kinder: So an inspired worker is something that I'm aiming to deliver into [00:30:00] businesses, and we can do that through fiat. We can do that through great life planning. We can do that through mindfulness. But, , let's excite the workers , about their lives. Let's give them support, real support from a corporate standpoint, and make your businesses two or three times as productive as they're right now.

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: this. So if you're driving in your car right now, don't worry. I'll have a link to this on the website for the podcast. George, thank you so much for being on the show today. Have a great rest of the day There.

George Kinder: Uh, to be here with you, Chris. Thanks so much. Yeah.