Below is the transcript for the episode with Elf Lyons, full podcast and related show notes available here:
Dan: Hello and welcome to Making Creativity Pay, a podcast where we talk to people in creative industries about how they promote and market their work. I'm Dan Barnett and on this episode we will speak to comedian, writer, actor and director Elf Lyons. We talk about the many facets of her career including this year's Edinburgh show Heist, she performed with Duffy and how that went from a two week run to a full month.
We discussed the process of directing a number of shows for fellow performers at The Fringe, as well as her stand up work and YouTube special, Elf Lyons Talks Dirty. We also talked about the podcast Elfenomics she hosts with her father economist, Dr. Gerard Lyons, and about reprising her show Raven, which is on at the Soho Theatre, London, on 27th and 28th October.
I started by asking Elf to give a quick introduction about herself and her work.
Elf: So my name is Elf Lyons, I'm a comedian by trade, I always say that, by trade. But, forms a myriad of different things within that, so, I do perform most days of the week as a stand up, and then doing straight stand up comedy.
Then I do my own shows, which I tour around the UK or abroad, which are a mixture of stand up shows and also my more theatrical comedy shows. such as Raven, and then I also work as a teacher, in that I am a tutor at universities on comedy and clown theory, and I also lead and teach my own workshops for young people adults, and also elderly.
And on top of that I also do voice work, so that's another aspect, and I also work as an actor.
Dan: I mean, it's a kind of a common theme about lots of people spoke to, you know, this kind of multi threads, you know, you're not just one thing. There's little bits of things that, you know, there's lots of overlap quite a lot of the time, but you know, you don't just have one thing that you do.
Yeah,
Elf: I think it's that funny thing. It used to be you'd focus on one thing and you focused to do it to the best of your degree. But now we've lost, I think. We don't have the same sort of level of rep theater that we used to have where you'd be part of an ensemble and you'd continue to work with them forever and ever and ever.
I think now everyone has to be really multidisciplinary. We don't have the same, I mean there's that idea that you just focus on one thing and if you focus and you get really good at it then obviously the great things will come and that's the ideal. Well, then I think everyone started going, I just want to be good at this one thing.
I just want to be an actor. I want to be funny or I want to be a director. And then you realize that actually, because of how work comes and goes, how people travel everywhere, how you meet people in so many different wakes of life and walks of life doing so many different things that actually, if you want to get good at what you want to do, you have to have.
You know, that Edward Gordon Craig phrase, the captain is someone who knows who no longer handles the ropes. So you end up doing a little, especially at the start, you work as you do everything to become brilliant. And that's sort of how I ended up starting because I couldn't. I never got acting jobs when I first started, so, well at university I never got cast in any of the plays, but I wanted to be involved.
So I ended up doing lighting design, and I did sound design, and I did set design, and I did props, and I did, ended up being a general manager of a theatre. And that was how I ended up working out my craft, or what I enjoyed watching, and what I therefore enjoyed.
Dan: So it's mid October now, so have you recovered from the fringe?
I mean, how was that as an experience for you?
Elf: The fringe this year was actually probably the most fun I've had at the festival in a really long time. And that was for a myriad of factors. The first was that I went up with my friend Duffy with a show that we'd already made. And the stakes for us, for me, felt very, very low.
In that I was doing the show with Duffy as a friend for fun. For pleasure. Duffy had not done The Fringe before and it was a bucket list thing for him. We were, we were lucky in that we applied very late and we got a lovely two week slot with The Monkey Barrel, who are a fantastic venue and they have a really favourable deal for artists, which is why they're in so high, such high demand and arguably one of the most competitive to get in with.
In terms of your application being considered. And so that was a joy, and knowing that it was just the two of us doing it, so financially our costs were very different. We were, received funding from Deaf Explorer, which meant my travel up there was covered, my living expenses were covered, they paid me a weekly wage for the first two weeks of the fringe, which you never normally have.
So... There was a very different emotional outlook for me, because I knew I wasn't going there and losing money. And there wasn't so much of a career risk in that previous years. It is a trade fair, and there's this desire to be seen, and you know that if the show doesn't necessarily go well, people don't see it, or people who book things don't see it, you potentially don't make your money for the next year.
And I've always relied on Edinburgh for touring, and that is how I get my name out, and that's how I've always sort of made my financial Made my money, basically, paid my rent. And so I didn't really have that this year, so it was just joyful going out with a friend and knowing that was covered. I was staying with a family for free, which also makes a huge change, because normally if you have to pay for accommodation, you're out of pocket, even if you sell out every day.
And then the show, we expanded and we did the whole month. So, even though we're not touring the show again, the show's not going on elsewhere, we had a really healthy festival, and I made money. I made a good month's earnings. So, in terms of career progression, you could say, oh, you know, it was lovely, but nothing would come of it.
Which is a shame, and I wonder if that's also because the show is in sign language and whether there's a little bit of ableism from that and how the show could potentially be marketed. But from a financial perspective, the show was a really great hit. So there's that side of it.
Dan: One of the things I've talked about with people on the fringes before is that, you know, some people have done a long weekend, you know, just three nights.
Like I said, a bit like if you want to tick it off their bucket list to say they've done it. Other people, earlier on in their career, do a week. But a lot of people feel the pressure to do a month. If you'd have had the option at the start to do a month, would you have taken it? Or was it nice to have that two weeks, see the response, and then, you know, it's nice to be Kind of dragged in and kind of people want you to stay rather than, you know, doing the month and trying to shift tickets.
Elf: I absolutely enjoyed doing the two weeks and that for me was really well And I think actually it was a much healthier attitude because it just meant I think what happened was I jumped straight into the social Aspect of the fringe which I'd forgotten about in previous years because you know, it's not Fun and games, you are there to work, and also the shows that I make, especially, are very physically demanding, so you have to do a lot of physical rest and mental rest.
Because we're only there for two weeks, I just try to jump at it. I grab everything and go guns blazing into the night, and... Then because the show did so well and we were able to, and we were lucky to extent like Monkey Barrel had scheduled into their programming slots for their artists to extent, which is very smart and not other, not many venues do do that.
Yeah. So, and it was great and it was, and I think that then meant the joy of being lucky to be there for another two weeks and the fact that our accommodation allowed us to be there for another two weeks. So I would definitely recommend, I think more artists should consider going up for shorter periods of time.
I met a huge amount of artists. International artists who came to the Fringe this year who had a very difficult time and had struggled. And the reason they had struggled was they didn't do their research. In that they hadn't come to the festival, festival before, and I understand that is a privilege to travel to an international festival.
But I do think for something of that scale, and if it is going to be a huge deal to you, and you are going to put a lot of money into it, then I do think it is worth your time visiting the festival at least once before, for a few days or for a week, just to get the vibe. to see how it orchestrates, to see where the spaces are.
So when you go there the following year or a few years later, you know what you want to get out of it. Because there are a lot of artists who came and with a one hour show, who were there for the whole month, who had never been, who did not have a following, who had not met anyone, didn't have any connections in the UK, didn't have any UK based comic friends, and just felt a little bit lost at sea.
And you could see that in this, and they weren't prepared for the difficulty of the festival.
Dan: Yeah, it was amazing seeing on Twitter, you know, some people starting small, but then having that success selling out or close to selling out every day, then other people kind of really, really, you know, I was on Twitter far too much over August, but you could see people, you know, constantly saying, come see my show, replying to people about my show, you know, really, really trying hard.
And that, that must be soul destroying. And if you put all that effort in and the financial and you'll get in, you know, eight to 10 people a day, which, you know, Overall, if you said, you know, you've got 200 people see your show in a month, it's not terrible, but probably where your expectations were were quite different to that.
Elf: Yeah, I mean, I've done the festival for years now, so I have an audience. I don't have a grand, you know, I've always tried to follow that idea of 1000 true fans. So I've got my audience that come and see my show and they bring their friends and they tell their friends. So that's how I've sort of always worked on.
I don't have a huge online following, but I definitely have an audience that will sell me tickets. And it's about taking that time to build up. I very much, I also think it's very important for other artists to see other artists. And I try and make it, you know, I'm still, I'm still very young, but 32. I'm a 32 year old woman who's been in the arts for a while.
I make it my... Goal to see as much emerging artwork from emerging artists and that means regardless of age But anyone who tweeted me and invited me to their show I went to there were only a few that I didn't just because they were like 1 a. m Out in the middle of nowhere and I thought practically I can't make that But any show that was messaged to me that I thought, well, I can make that I was there and I, and that means a lot to artists.
And I think that's really important. Also paying tickets to see other artists shows, or if there's an artist that you really want to see their show, you want them to see your show, inviting them and offering them a comp, like reaching out that way because other artists spreading word of mouth about what you do is important.
Dan: And so, for your show, I mean, did you have trouble building momentum, or was it kind of, not plain sailing, but relatively low stress in kind of getting people in?
Elf: Yeah, we didn't really need to flyer, actually. We flied the first three days, and then it sold out for the rest of the run. And the reason that is, obviously, Duffy is incredibly respected in his industry, in his art form.
He's an incredibly celebrated performer in the deaf world, in the deaf community the deaf theatre scene, and our show was the first of its kind. In that it was a deaf and hearing comic pairing. That was a show that was entirely accessible to hearing and deaf audiences. And the interpreter was on stage for the hearing audience.
And that's not happened before. Like, there's not been a show of its kind. So, we had a huge amount of deaf audience coming, because there was also the Deaf Festival on at the time as well, who'd never been to the Edinburgh Fringe. who'd not been able to see shows at the Edinburgh Fringe because there's not much access for deaf audiences.
So we had my audience who's predominantly hearing coming to see my show and then we had a whole new audience who hadn't seen me but had followed Duffy's work and you know that whole and then a mixture of deaf and hearing friends or family members coming together to see the show. So for that reason we had two huge demographics coming and it was a 60 seater theatre so it was relatively petite actually over 15 days.
And then, you know, the extension after that.
Dan: So was the extension a bigger venue?
Elf: Yeah. So it went from 60 seats to 120. And we went from evening to lunchtime, which obviously then does change things slightly because then people who can come are only really there because they're on holiday for the Fringe.
So we our Scottish audience slightly changed unless it was at the weekends. Or unless they take a holiday off. So our numbers were still really, really good. We sold very well, but we didn't sell out the 120 seater that often. But then, by that point the, the ticket, the pricing is so good, and we were in such a good place it's not, it didn't really matter to us at that
point.
Dan: So I saw the show on Next Up. I mean, have you had much feedback from it being broadcast, you know, beyond beyond in person as well?
Elf: No, I haven't. No, I haven't actually. I need to email NextUp and get the footage. Yeah, no, I haven't seen it.
Dan: It was great. I mean, it's, it's kind of, you know, really cool show.
You can see that, obviously, there's a structure, but there's an awful lot of improv as well. And it, it seemed to be that, you know...
Elf: Well, that's the impression that we give off, yeah.
Dan: I mean, how much was Duffy kind of seemed to be playing with you and kind of putting stuff in, you know, in the one I saw. You were saying, you know, this is completely different you know, certain sections are completely different to the other time and, or, or how much of that is you kind of
Elf: So the truth is, the only person who improvises really is me.
Right. Duffy does the exact same thing every single show, but that's our different, our different strengths and weaknesses. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, but that's the risk with clowning, fake spontaneity. And obviously sometimes we do improvise and change things around. But when you're working in two different languages at the same time, there has to be a level of breaker.
Vigorousness or rigor That has to be something cemented, there has to be a base.
Dan: Yes, because as well as, like you said, the two of you, there's the interpreter as well, and it's, there's probably enough going on, enough moving parts without just completely going off piste.
Elf: Yeah, there's a lot of moving parts in that show.
Dan: So you're saying you don't necessarily think you'll do it anywhere else? I know, you know, an awful lot of... Shows from the fringe come down to London or Manchester or wherever. Do you see a kind of a run somewhere else?
Elf: Well, it would need to be programmed and I think that's the thing. People, I'm not going to spend my energy emailing out to ask for it to be programmed because it takes a huge amount of finances for us to travel there.
Say there, what the box office deal is. Also, if it's being promoted, our promoters take a big whack of the money and the income. So we could do it independently ourselves, but obviously then, that's a huge, the reason you often go with a promoter is they take the stress and the burden off you. But then the problem is, is also if you are with a promoter.
Your earnings, you don't actually always see them. And that can be... So, even though I tour and I perform a huge amount live, the actual amount of money that I see from those shows is very minimal. You know, or not. If I did it all myself, I would see much more. Which is why I also tend to teach. And also why I tend to, if I'm doing shows, I like to, I tend to do big one hour shows because I've got way more control and agency over the finances.
I like to have a lot more hands on understanding of where the money is going. Which might annoy some people.
Dan: No, no, no, you know, that's... You're the one who's gonna care most about you getting a decent deal out of things, you know. It probably comes on nicely to your show Raven that's on in a couple of weeks.
I guess you've prayed, you know, with the two weeks notice, you could probably pray that there's no train strikes because it's you know, Friday, Saturday evenings.
Elf: Well, the thing is, it's an 11 p. m. show. So most people who are coming, I would assume, will not be traveling home late after that. So, because...
It's so late by that point, so my assumption is the majority of audience will be London based, or will have been in London for the weekend. So if it was like 10pm, slightly, I would be a bit worried, but for 11pm, you are already, you're already taking a risk by performing at the late spot. So you are relying on the night time economy, the London arts scene to come out.
Dan: Yes, so this, this is your previous year's show from the Edinburgh Fringe that you're reprising around Halloween. What was the feeling? Because I think I've seen you say before, I think in June, that that was the last time you were doing it. What kind of made you want to do it? And like you said about the control, you know, how much is you picking the venue, picking the time promoting it and everything else?
Elf: None of that. And so, I mean, especially for a venue like Soho Theatre, which is constantly, you know, it's really popular. I've got a very good relationship with the Soho Theatre, and the show sold out for the two week run it had last year there. And so, quite simply, we emailed, and emailed them and we said, Hey, can we bring Raven back for Halloween?
And they replied and they said, Yeah. And then they offered us two slots, two late night slots. And two late night slots is a risk. It's a risk for the theatre and it's a risk for us. It's more a risk for the theatre actually because they have to charge, they have to pay their artists, their staff overtime because it's such a late slot.
So you really, they have to be very confident that the show is going to sell well and have a big audience that buy drinks. So they're not just going to programme Any, with the greatest respect, they weren't programmed necessarily a brand new emerging artist unless they had a show that they knew categorically was going to sell out.
So, you know, there's, there's pressure to ensure that the show sells well, but also I have faith that it will sell well and it will sell well closer to the time because Soho has a big regular audience who will buy tickets for whatever is programmed there. So there's a new audience for me, but there's also people who've seen that show multiple times and who will.
Come back to see it again.
Dan: From your point of view, you're not overly worried. I mean, you know, like you said, you've sold it two weeks before. So you're not, I said, similar to the stuff, the fringe, you're not then every day going, you know, how many tickets sold? How many tickets sold? I need to push it.
You're, you're fairly relaxed and confident that, you know, it'll, it'll sell.
Elf: Well, yeah, it's more, it's fun for me. But also the truth is I won't make a huge amount of money. Like I won't make a huge, I, I, I will make very little money for what I'm actually doing, and people will be surprised, especially when you look at how much the tickets are, how much of that will actually come back to me is, is very little, really, being, and I, you know, without going into the finances of it, this is the thing, people always assume that you make an absolute mint, and you don't.
You, you absolutely don't. So, and I know there's so much pressure to do TikTok and do these things to ensure sales for your shows. I find that very, very difficult. I don't really enjoy that aspect of it. I'm trying, I'm paying for someone else to do that side for it now because I don't want to waste my energy.
But yeah, I'm doing this purely because I love the show and it's fun for me and it's a lovely thing for people to see it. But yeah, I'm not, I have to make my money through other means.
Dan: So, I guess that's, you know, there's, there's two sides to that. There's one, yes, you're not going to make as much money.
But then the other side of that was, well, then you're not stressed about ticket sales and the constant. You can just do the show, enjoy the performance and what happens, happens.
Elf: Yeah, absolutely. I know the show's good. I don't need to worry about press coming in. I'm very happy with it. I know people come.
It's selling, selling relatively well so far. I know it will sell out by the time the show happens. I'm very, very calm. Basically.
Dan: Yeah, as I say going back to The Fringe briefly. So one of the other things is I know you were directing a few of the shows. I mean, how was that as a, as experience? Had you done much of that before?
Have you done that for a number of years up at The Fringe?
Elf: No, so it was my first proper year directing comedy shows. Really loved it. Really loved the process. I've worked
with artists publicly and also privately. In terms of publicly, and they'll credit me for mentoring them and artists privately. And a great. So I take a great deal of pride in knowing that. But, and I've taught like the Soho Labs Comedy Plus for nearly a year now. So I wouldn't have taken that on unless I thought I could have done the artist justice.
Dan: I've always found it weird, I kind of asked people before, you know, a number of people who kind of directed shows, that, you know, especially when it's a one person show. Directing, it's a kind of dynamic, you know, if you're directing a troupe or a group, you're, you're then in charge. But if you're directing a solo artist about how you kind of, you know, you don't say, well, that's crap.
That's crap. You should do that. And how you, how you tease out the best of them without Telling them what to do. I mean, how do you find that?
Elf: Yeah, it's the, the, I think the term comedy director is slightly misleading because in the theatre world So I was doing a play earlier this year at the Arcola If the director says to me go downstage left on that line, I go stage left on that line I don't go.
Oh, okay. I respect that opinion, but I'm actually gonna go downstage right No, if she's told me that if she says on that line, you need to whisper it I whisper it because she is the director. In comedy, that doesn't really exist for the role of the director. The director comes in and can help with dramaturgy, can help with joke structure, can help work with the delivery, can help work out and get rid of some of the faff around a joke, can help work out, you know, all these little set pieces to make it really sparkle on stage.
But at the end of the day, if the artist wants to ad lib, change the script, remove a gag, Change the point and move, you know, do something, a complete curve ball, that is their absolute prerogative 'cause it's their show. In the multiple shows I directed this year, they had very different approaches. One was literally me helping with the physicality and where they moved and questioning at them on the why one person, it was purely script editing and making sure the structure made sense.
And some, it was, you know, just this constant conversation about what the show was about. But no, there's loads of bits in their shows that I think are brilliant, or direct lines that I'd helped create and given to them for the play, for the piece. But then there were also bits that I always said, I don't believe that works, but the artist loves and keeps it in, because it's also their show.
So I think there's something there, the director can get credit to an extent, the extent, but also, yeah, there's, I think the best term is probably mentor.
Dan: Because it must be quite difficult as a solo artist. Obviously you get feedback from a crowd as a work in progress and so on, but it must be nice sometimes to say, that is funny, isn't it?
That will work, that. That, that is right. You know, maybe the crowd does or doesn't quite take it in the work in progress, but you know, it's probably nice to have that reassurance that yes, you're on the right track from someone that you respect and who's done it themselves.
Elf: Yeah, totally. And you need that.
And I think the more now, I think more people are going towards directors because there's so many comedians, and there's so many different ways of doing it, and there's so many different way, places to be pulled that Reaching out to someone, an artist that you admire and asking them to help you, I think is a really healthy way.
You need a teammate because you can get very lost in the ether and not quite know what you're meant to do or where you're meant to place yourself.
Dan: One of the other things, you know, as well as, you know, your multifaceted career. Yes, you do a podcast with your dad. I don't know if you wanted to kind of quickly talk about that and kind of what it is, how it came about.
It's interesting as well that, you know, it used to be called What the Hell is Economics? But it's now Elfonomics. I mean, how is your dad about that, about the name change?
Elf: No, my dad was happy. He... Because he just wants me to do well. That's literally his, you know, his dream. So he thought the branding made better sense.
And the truth of this, it was much easier to find. It's a passion project. It doesn't bring us any revenue, by any stretch. Because my dad's working all the time, as am I. And the, the consistency you need for the podcast now. Is you have to be posting repeatedly, you have to be recording repeat, you know, on a weekly or bi weekly basis, and my father and I just can't do that.
So we recorded all the episodes in one chunk, edited them, released them on a weekly basis, and then... My dad's doing a whole 101 different things at the moment, as am I. We haven't been able to be in the same space. So we'll release series three at some point, but it's more a joyful, it's a joyful side project rather than something we both have an end goal on making money on.
It's a really fun podcast to do.
Dan: So it's kind of interesting, obviously you're very artistic, very theatrical, and then your dad's you know, an economics expert. I mean, how much of that has rubbed off on you? I mean, how much of an economical slant do you take on things?
Elf: I think I do, especially as I got older.
When I was a kid, I didn't really understand, but obviously now the older I get and the... The more financially stable I get in comedy as well. And being, I think, as well as you get older, that realisation that not everybody, when you start, you trust that everybody else knows what they're talking about. And you trust people and you, and I made some big financial errors paying people huge wads of money.
for things that I thought I needed in order to do better. And I remember like, paying big. I still regret it. Like, I was trying to advertise my comedy night in the, in Secret Comedians. And I reached out to this website, to this magazine because I'd seen that they'd mentioned a comedy night. And instead they sold me advertising space.
And I was, I didn't really understand. What I wanted was just what a PR would now do. Write to the events writer and... The events writer does a shout out, but I, this woman then met up with me and was really pushy as a sales person would, and I was only about 23 or 24 and quite taken in and I didn't really understand.
And I thought, well, if this helps sell my night and then not paying an unnecessarily large amount of my own money to pay for more. And it just was a complete waste of time, complete waste of time. But there was that naivety of. going of accepting and saying yes to things and being really like trying to grab everything by the horns.
And I always look back as that as a terrible financial choice. And I always feel really bad about that. I'm really cross at the lady because she was just being very exploitative because it was evident that was not what I wanted. So, and I remember chatting to my dad about it afterwards. So going into things, and when people try and upsell you all the time, or try and tell you that you need this, and you need this, and you need this, and you need this, and say I don't need this, but also knowing, and this is the case with my show Raven, having to tell people, oh no, I categorically need us to put more money in the budget for this.
I know it will take away from ticket sales, but if I do not have that, the show cannot function. So understanding all the different aspects of having an honest conversation with someone going, I know this might impact your ability to make money on this show, but I need this in order for my show to be the best it artistically can be.
So Raven is a big health and safety nightmare in lots of ways. And so when chatting to people about certain I have to be really, really put my foot down for certain things. And if that means an extra 200 quid has to get taken out of the budget or put onto the budget, then
Dan: so podcast was talking about, you know, should you have an OnlyFans?
And, I mean, OnlyFans is a really interesting example. You know, you said that rather than Patreon, which would be maybe the more standard. So obviously with OnlyFans you've got the the double, the double meaning almost, you know, and I have seen some comedians who say, well, I'm on OnlyFans now and kind of, you know, you know, that, that kind of suggestion of the more adult side of things.
I mean, do you think that there is interest, not so much OnlyFans on that side of things, but in terms of subscription, you know, you talking about the thousand true fans, about having a small group where you get extra content, better access, but for a smaller
Elf: monthly fee? I think it depends on the art.
Depends on the comic, depends on the style, depends on who your fans are, how loyal they are, what they actually want from you. I mean, one in five people in the world is on TikTok, so there's a whole audience you want and to consume very quick sketches. Is that my audience? There's probably an audience out there that I haven't accessed, so I need to take the time to do that.
A lot of my audience would probably follow and only fans. It's, knowing that it wouldn't be a sexy one, but knowing it would probably just be lots of weird content. It's the same as Twitch. You know, Twitch is a very different format that some people really excel in, like, means like John Robertson and Limey.
Others don't. Some people have loads of YouTube followers as opposed to Instagram. Again, it depends on like your age bracket and where you are. And what your comedy is about, really, my difficulty for me is I don't use those things. I don't go on Twitch. I don't really watch stuff on YouTube. I don't go on TikTok.
I don't go on OnlyFans. So I find it really difficult to think about how I can market myself within those things when I don't do the research. Chatting to a comedian who's really big on TikTok, he said he spends on average eight hours a day going through TikTok now in order to work out. And, you know, he's made a huge living from TikTok and he's got.
Millions of followers. Fantastic. Great. I don't have that capability yet to do that. That's something I, and whether that holds me back in my comedy progression in the future and shows that I will date or age in a different way and will be of the live world is one thing or the other. And that's, you know, the economics, you know, it's competition.
Can you adapt? Can you compete? And there's a whole new generation of incredibly young comics who do know how to use this stuff, like AI. So, with OnlyFans, fantastic. I contemplated it, but then I realised I wouldn't, I wouldn't use it. I'd use it for like a couple of days, like I used, I have a Ko a Ko fi account, I very rarely use it.
I have a Twitch account, I haven't used it since COVID. I have a TikTok account, I, I go on it maybe once a month. So, yeah, for me, I, I get more distracted by live stuff.
Dan: I mean, that's the problem is once you've got people paying a subscription, then you're obliged to put something out on a regular basis.
And then I've seen it with some people, you know, that they may have a couple of dozen patrons, which, you know, is great. But then that means you're creating an hour or two's worth of content, things for a month, but for a small audience. And so, you know, it then becomes huge work. You know, it's the kind of thing, yeah, you either go all guns blazing, fully into all.
Or just kind of, yeah, steer clear. Yeah,
Elf: I need to go all guns blazing, but I just don't have the time. I do not have the time in amongst the other things that I'm doing.
Dan: So, I mean, you've got a YouTube special up as well, with things like that. And you said you're not too much on TikTok. I mean, how... How much, you know, it's kind of one, one thing I'm interested in talking to people is the kind of the quantification of everything you do now.
So, you know, you, you put a tweet out, you put something on Instagram, you'll know how many people like it, you know, how many people follow you. It, it must be, it's, it's one thing, you know, just a normal person doing stuff, you know, that they'll want, they'll, if they send a tweet out, they'll want people to retweet it, they'll want people to comment and like it.
But, you know, when it's, it's you and it's, you've created something and it's, it's more artistic and sometimes, you know, it'll get... 10 views or three, just three likes or something. You know, that, that must be quite hard to kind of separate and just go, well, sometimes things don't work. It doesn't get picked up.
It doesn't mean the thing's crap.
Elf: I mean, like the YouTube thing, I put it up on YouTube and I mean, there was no PR behind it. I just released it and put it out. I do think there's something interestingly gendered about. YouTube specials in that you have a whole group of male comics who sort of really praise each other's work and there's a big Much but still I think online you see a lot more of the inherent sexism there is towards men and women In that male specials get much higher numbers much much faster And i've and I do and I noticed that i've noticed that more going.
All right. Okay. So what? What is it? That's not, what did I do right? What did I do wrong with this? I know the show's very good. I'm proud of the talk dirty, but I didn't have a huge amount of YouTube followers on, so I'm just, you can guess. I mean, some people would be like, oh, we haven't had many views and the show, I think's had 2000 views on YouTube, but then I go, well, that's more audience than I've ever had.
See that show before? Yeah. You know, two thousands is a lot of people in a live show setting. You know, if you're performing to an average, you know, a hundred, 200 people a night. So, 2, 000 people in a short space of time, great. And I haven't had to actually put any physical energy into touring that show.
Someone saw me in Rotterdam recently who'd seen the special online. So that's a really cool thing. And these things take time. So, I don't know, those numbers will continue to grow. It's just a starting point for me. I'm glad it's there because I can send it to people. But I never really expected it to go viral or, like, blow up.
You know, I had no idea of caring about that. I just put it up because I knew from the get go.
Dan: So I think a lot of times, you know, if someone's got an hour special, they'll then probably have, you know, a dozen clips from it that they'll then put on TikTok and Instagram and push. And like you said, there's probably groups of people who will push each other's and, you know, which is good to support.
But, you know, whether that support is kind of quite technically knit rather than a bit more generous.
Elf: And it is what, you know, again, it's competition. And where do we fit? And where do we fit in the industry?
Dan: So things like work in progress and just general, generally kind of building things. I mean, you can kind of see now in London, especially, I know you're doing like the Museum of Comedy and it'll be nine, ten artists.
It's three pound a ticket when you kind of think, well, that's obviously not economically viable for. for anyone really and so to kind of build an audience you have to kind of get pretty big you have to kind of build an awful lot before you can make enough to kind of you know make a living out of it so there's an awful lot that you have to do before you can say right i'm a full time comedian whether whether that that barrier now is is an awful lot higher than maybe it once was
Elf: i wonder as well like the thing is with those gigs so the monday club that you're referencing isn't that for artists So there's, most of the gigs that I've been doing this month don't pay a huge amount.
Altogether they clump up and they're fairly, you know, it's nice. It helps, for sure. I'm under the illustration with those gigs, it means that I'm there to try new material. So, you know, they're good gigs run by good people who attract a nice audience, so they're worthwhile. What you don't want is just to be turning up at any random open mic night, at this stage in your game.
to try new material, because the, especially the open mic scene, they're not particularly conducive or helpful for new talent, for new material, if you're an experienced comic, because it's learning how to be on stage. And it's often a room full of just other comedians, which you don't want. So like the Munty Club, you will have an audience of actual punters.
And even though the material will be new, the acts are consistently good. And they still know how, they still know how to hold it on stage, where if a joke flops, the audience will still laugh. So at the moment, because I'm developing stuff for a new show, I'm doing loads of gigs where I'm headlining and the acts are still pretty emerging.
But I, the positive of that is that I get a 20 minute headline spot to literally do new material. So I have this whole amazing month of gigs where I get to see lots of new acts. I get paid what? 80 quid, 100 quid maybe, for that spot, or 60 quid depending on how new the night is. They cover my travel for 20 minutes, for me there to see some new acts, and for me to try out new stuff.
Brilliant. And then, if you're making money from comedy in other ways, it works out really well. It's like working out what the pluses and what the minuses are. You know, I just did tour support for Aunty Donna, and I'm performing to the biggest audiences I ever have of like 3, 000 people or so. In Manchester at the O2, and my followers increase massively, I get a new audience if you've ever seen me.
Am I paid particularly well? Absolutely not. But it's like the risks versus the rewards. It's a 20 minute set that's solid gold that I know works. Brilliant. Perform that to an audience. You've got a whole new audience of potential true fans who will book a ticket for you when you come back again.
Dan: And with something like that, how hard do you push?
This is me, find me on Instagram, do this, I've got a special out.
Elf: Oh yeah, like I do, I do put those things out. I do mention that. I don't like, I probably could push more, but then, yeah, I just sort of, I don't know. I mention them, but I'm not like, ahhh. I'm not too mean. I'm more focused on the live shows, so the show that I always push is Raven.
I want people to see that show. I'm really proud of that show. Talk Dirty is a great stand up show, but it's an hour of just filthy jokes. It's just, for me, it's just stand up.
Dan: Yeah. And so for, are you planning on a show at Edinburgh next year? Is that the one you're warming up at the moment? Is that more stand up or theatrical?
Elf: I have no idea. I have no idea. Okay. We'll see. Less Vegetables than Raven, for sure.
Dan: So in your mind, next August is Edinburgh with something, but TBC.
Elf: Yeah. Still TBC.
Dan: Thanks for listening. There's more details in the show notes about Elf, her work, and the live shows and YouTube specials discussed in the episode.
If you enjoyed this, check out our other episodes where we speak to a number of performers about their experiences at the Edinburgh Fringe, as well as with creatives in other industries about making creativity pay.
