March 30, 2025
DEI Without Backlash: Making Money Through Inclusion
What if improving company profits and creating a more diverse workforce weren't competing goals but complementary ones? Paolo Gaudiano, founder of DEI tech company Aleria, flips conventional wisdom on its head with his revolutionary approach to workplace inclusion.
With advanced degrees in aerospace engineering and neuroscience, Paolo brings a unique analytical perspective to diversity challenges. "I like to joke that I'm the white elephant in the room," he shares, acknowledging his unusual position as a white, cisgender, heterosexual man working in DEI. Yet this perspective, combined with his computational expertise, has allowed him to develop groundbreaking methodologies for measuring inclusion and its financial impact.
Paolo's mantra—"inclusion is what you do and diversity is what you get"—perfectly encapsulates his philosophy. Rather than focusing primarily on diversity metrics, which can create zero-sum game perceptions and fuel backlash, his approach prioritizes building inclusive environments where everyone can succeed. This subtle shift produces dramatic results: companies naturally become more diverse while avoiding the perception of discrimination or favoritism.
The financial stakes couldn't be higher. Through Aleria's innovative calculator, Paolo has demonstrated that companies typically lose 20-30% of their net profits through poor inclusion practices. By measuring how different identity groups experience the workplace and quantifying the productivity and turnover costs associated with exclusionary behaviors, organizations can make data-driven decisions about inclusion initiatives with clear ROI.
Paolo's book, "Measuring Inclusion: Higher Profits and Happier People Without Guesswork or Backlash," provides a blueprint for this revolutionary approach. In an era where DEI efforts face political scrutiny and corporate hesitation, his methodology offers a path forward that transcends political divides by focusing on universal business goals and human needs.
Ready to transform your approach to workplace inclusion while boosting your bottom line? Discover how treating all employees equally isn't just the right thing to do—it's also the profitable thing to do.
www.aleria.com
Want to be a guest on Living the Dream with Curveball? Send Curtis Jackson a message on PodMatch, here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/1628631536976x919760049303001600
00:00 - Introduction to Paolo Gaudiano
04:31 - From Aerospace to DEI
10:48 - DEI and Political Backlash
20:26 - The True Business Case for DEI
25:16 - Measuring Inclusion: The Book
28:05 - Aleria's Innovative Approach
30:12 - Final Thoughts on DEI's Future
WEBVTT
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Welcome to the Living the Dream Podcast with Curveball, if you believe you can achieve.
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Welcome to the Living the Dream with Curveball Podcast, a show where I interview guests that teach, motivate and inspire.
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I interview guests that teach, motivate and inspire.
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Today, we're going to be talking about DEI, as I am joined by the founder of Illyria, paolo Gardiano.
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Paolo founded this company because he wants to help business owners realize that they can make more money by including, you know, being more inclusive and having more happier and diverse employees.
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Elyria is a DEI tech company.
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Paolo has advanced degrees in aerospace engineering as well as neuroscience, and he says he jokes.
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You know that he has already went through rocket science and, you know, performed that before coming to the complex problem of helping these business leaders realize that they can make money by, you know, being inclusive and including diversity in their workforce.
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So we're going to be talking to Paolo about everything that he's up to.
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So, paolo, thank you so much for joining me today.
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Thank you, Curtis.
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It's a real pleasure to be here.
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Thank you for inviting me.
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Why don't you start off by telling everybody a little bit about yourself?
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So I like to joke with people and you know in all you can't see me, but I'm a white guy, cisgender, heterosexual, born and raised in Italy, but I came here as a teenager.
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So I feel like I'm very much a member of the privileged majority of this country, if you will, and so I always joke with people.
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I'm the white elephant in the room because I'm not.
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There are not a lot of people like me who work in diversity, equity and inclusion.
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I mean, there are some.
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I come at it from a very unusual angle in that I developed an interest in diversity and inclusion from my first arrival to this country when I saw some of the very what I considered initially to be very strange and very upsetting ways in which people were treated differently because of their race primarily, and then later also realized, because of gender and disabilities.
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But I always felt that, as a white guy, what can I possibly do?
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So I went on and created a career.
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I was a professor, as I mentioned in my bio.
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I actually started out doing aerospace engineering for my advanced degree, my master's degree.
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Then my PhD was in neuroscience, but with a really strong computational angle, and I became fascinated with the idea of how do you understand the way that lots of neurons in the brain can help you to do things like see or speak, or move your hands and things of that sort?
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And then eventually I moved to a different realm where I thought well, maybe I can use the same ideas to help figure out how people, when you put them together, they can do some pretty amazing things.
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And that's how, eventually, about 10 years ago, after working in the space as a consultant entrepreneur for about 15 years or so, after I was a professor for 10 years, I saw an opportunity to apply my work to diversity, equity and inclusion and, in particular, I thought that there was a way to provide a quantitative demonstration for business leaders that it is in fact possible for them to treat their employees better and make more money in the process.
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Because one of the things that I realized about diversity, equity and inclusion or back then, 10 years ago, it was just diversity and inclusion and before that it was just diversity.
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But in that space a lot of the work focuses on fairness and justice and kind of aspirational goals.
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But often what we need to acknowledge is the fact that most business leaders care about one thing primarily and that is making money for other companies, and I feel that a lot of the discrimination that I've learned about in this country is driven by motivation, is motivated by economic motivators, and so I felt that if I could come up with a good economic motivator to make people behave better, that might actually have an impact, and so that's kind of a long-winded way of explaining how I got into doing what I'm doing.
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Both you know, my geographical background as well as my identity have really shaped the kind of work that I do.
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Well, how do you feel like due to the current political climate?
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How does it affect your work when it comes to DEI?
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Well, it turns out, it's impacting my work in a very interesting way.
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On the one hand, anybody that is working in DEI is clearly being impacted negatively by the executive orders and, more generally, by this negative climate that has been created during the backlash in the last couple of years.
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However, because of the unique nature of my work and because of the fact that I approach it from a point of view of really making things happen in a material, tangible, measurable way, and I focus first and foremost on inclusion, I have a way of saying this, that I say that inclusion is what you do and diversity is what you get.
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Because of that, what I'm finding is that, although some companies are retreating, putting projects on hold, at the same time, I'm getting tremendous demand for both for the work that we do at L'Area, but, more importantly, I'm getting a ton of invitations to speak at conferences, events, corporate gatherings, some universities.
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I've been doing quite a number of podcasts recently, and part of that is also due to the fact that I published a book about six months ago.
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It was in September of last year and one of the things that I discussed in the book aside from how you actually can manage diversity, equity and inclusion in a more effective way.
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I talk specifically about the backlash, and I talk about the fact that, as early as 2018, I was writing articles in which I essentially predicted that this kind of backlash was going to happen, and so the work that I do tends to attract a lot of attention right now, because I think that I'm one of the few people that comes at it from an angle that avoids the backlash.
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It avoids that sense of discrimination that white men mostly white men are now complaining about.
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It avoids some of the legal issues that are being raised by the Trump administration and, as a result of that, I'm in this very strange situation where, yes, some work is being delayed and I'm seeing, unfortunately, a lot of my colleagues that are having to shut down their companies or losing their jobs, but, at the same time, I'm getting a huge amount of demand for the specific nature of the work that I'm doing.
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What do you feel like DEI is a reverse form of discrimination.
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Why not?
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So it's.
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You know, I've had people some of my colleagues will say that the term reverse discrimination is a bit of a contradiction in terms, in the sense that you know if somebody is being discriminated against, they're being discriminated and they say, well, reverse discrimination doesn't make sense.
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But I think, conceptually, most people understand that what some people are saying.
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I think that people that are identified, as I do, as white people think of discrimination as something that has been primarily impacting certain groups of people and others saying, well, we've gone overboard with DEI and it's now causing discrimination against white people.
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I happen to think that a lot of that is completely overblown, but I also understand why, from the point of view of even well-meaning white people, it may sometimes feel that way, and one of the things that I said and I mentioned I wrote this article in 2018, and the article I was writing for Forbes quite regularly, and the article was titled Companies Need to Stop Focusing on Diversity Alone is that taking kind of a diversity first approach was going to create problems.
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Because if you go to the employees of a company and you say, hey, right now we have 20% women and 80% men and I want to, you know we see the value of diversity.
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We want to, you know, achieve 30% women.
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Well then, clearly, it means that you're going to be eliminating some of the men from the equation, and, even though there are ways of avoiding that, the mathematics is very, very difficult to avoid and it creates a sense of a zero-sum game, what I call, you know, the zero-sum game mindset you win, I lose, and so when I predicted that it was because, again, I saw that the way that we were approaching DEI and the fact that we were putting the emphasis on the diversity first was likely to create these problems.
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Unfortunately, what I've seen happen in the last few years, after we had this very strong wave of enthusiasm following the murder of George Floyd in May of 2021, sorry, may of 2020, what ended up happening is that there was so much interest in DEI that a lot of the initiatives were not thought out as carefully as they could have been, and it led, unfortunately, to some people experiencing situations that felt a lot like discrimination and it felt like, well, I'm being discriminated against because I'm a white man, and that, unfortunately is.
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You know, you can argue that it's unfair for people to complain about that.
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You can argue that there's been so much discrimination against people who are not white for such a long time that that's not fair.
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But unfortunately, when you're dealing with the reality of how people feel, you cannot go and tell them.
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Well, you shouldn't be feeling bad just because I used to feel worse than you feel right now.
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And I think that when you couple that with the fact that a lot of the work in DEI has been not as clear as it could have been, I would argue that if you ask people to define diversity, you will get pretty much the same definition from a lot of people.
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If you ask people to define inclusion or equity, you're going to get ask 10 people and you're going to get 10 different answers.
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And so what's happening in the last couple of years is that the conservative forces and I believe firmly that there are some very, very strong forces that are purposefully trying to undermine the progress that has been made They've taken advantage of this lack of clarity to insert their own definitions in a way that resonated with these people that were now being confronted with issues like oh you were going to get promoted, but we have to wait six months because we have to promote a woman before we promote you.
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And so they took advantage of that to create these definitions that are actually, in my opinion, they're wrong.
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They really go counter to what the AI is actually trying to do, but unfortunately, that doesn't matter.
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What matters is that if you have a large population that believes these definitions and these definitions align with their experiences or what they hear from their friends, then those definitions become reality, and so that's really, you know.
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So, to go back to your question is DEI creating reverse discrimination?
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Well, I think that some of the specific techniques that people have used to foster inclusion and diversity, and by focusing primarily on diversity, they have inadvertently created a situation in which people felt legitimately discriminated against.
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Now, as I said, is that a valid complaint or not?
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That's a different story.
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I think the reality is that it has created the opportunity for people to feel that way, and that has led to a lot of the complaints.
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What is next question is a two-part question.
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What is the business case for DEI?
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And you know why.
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Why, if I was a business owner, why would I want to hire somebody that's less qualified?
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Well, let me start as far as the business case.
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As I said, I believe that, with the best of intentions, a lot of people who jumped into DEI, especially after the murder of George Floyd, did so with a deep understanding of the problems, based on their own experiences, and, unfortunately, not necessarily as much understanding of how to drive change within a business.
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And when I hear people talk about the business case for DEI in the space of DEI supporters or promoters or consultants, what I hear a lot is reference to studies, like the famous studies by McKinsey, that suggest that there are correlations between the degree of diversity of various aspects of the company, whether it's the board or the executive team, and the financial, or some of the financial, kpis.
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There are two problems with that.
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One of them is that a correlation simply means that two things happen together.
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It does not mean that one calls the other.
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If you were a cynic, you might argue that the fact that there is a correlation is because companies that have more money can afford to hire more diverse people, which I think it's wrong.
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But you can't argue with that, just like you cannot argue that by being more diverse, you cause the company to perform better.
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And then the second problem is that, even if you believe that those correlations actually represented a direct link where diversity is causing performance, as a CEO you don't ever use correlations to run your company.
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Think about the way that you, you know.
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Imagine a CEO saying oh, we did a study and found that, across every product on the planet, red products do better than blue products, so let's make all of our products red.
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That's just simply not the way that you run a business, and so what was happening was a disconnect, where DEI supporters were arguing about the business case in a way that really didn't make any sense to the people that they were trying to convince.
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The way that I discuss business case and the way that I prove it is actually by showing that, as a company, if you have a group of people that is being treated differently than another group of people such that their satisfaction declines, what will happen to those people is that they will be less productive and it will also be the case that they will be more likely to leave your company.
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And if those two things materialize, you're losing money because you have a portion of your company that is not producing as much, and when these people leave, you're going to have to pay to rehire them.
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And so those kinds of reasonings are actually much easier to quantify in a way that makes sense to business leaders, because they actually show the business case for the specific company, not on average over hundreds of companies, but specifically how you run your company and how that will impact the success of your organization.
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And then that leads me to the second part of your question, which is that you know, would I hire somebody that is less qualified?
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Well, and again, there I think that what's happened is that it was a combination of using the wrong wording and, unfortunately, a few companies that took missteps where they literally did that, where they literally were unable to find qualified candidates, but because they wanted to check those boxes, they would hire people that were maybe not as qualified, or in some cases, they hired people that were maybe not as qualified, or in some cases they hired people that were qualified but they were not necessarily able to succeed in the environment into which they were brought.
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And so, as a result of that, we have a few people that come into a company that maybe underperform, and in some cases it's because they're truly less qualified.
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In many cases it's just because of the environment not welcoming them.
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Unfortunately, the way that our brains work is that when we see someone who looks different from us and they behave in a certain way, we tend to generalize to everybody else that looks the same way.
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So if, all of a sudden, you hire a woman and the woman does not succeed, instead of asking ourselves, well, did we maybe create an environment that made it difficult for the woman to succeed?
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And instead of saying to ourselves, well, have any men ever failed in this job?
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We don't do that, we simply say, oh, this woman failed.
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Therefore, women are less qualified, and so I think that there's a fallacy in the very question of asking that, and really, it also points to the fact that focusing on diversity is a mistake, and what you should really focus on is on creating an environment where people are able to succeed, whether they're new people that you're hiring or whether they're people that are already in your organization.
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If you make the effort to ensure that everybody is able to succeed, your company will make more money, and so that's how those two things are related, and that's why, by focusing on the inclusion and specifically what a company is doing to ensure that everybody is able to succeed, you're much more likely to have a company that performs better, and the company will be more diverse, because now you will no longer have these low levels of satisfaction that causes people to leave.
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And if you look at most companies, when you see that there is a low level of representation of some group, you always find that their retention rates are very low for those groups.
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So it's like a leaky bucket.
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You're losing water out of a bucket that's full of holes, and simply pouring more water from the top is just going to make a big mess on the floor.
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It's not going to fix the problem.
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You need to figure out why these people are leaving.
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What are the conditions in the workplace that are causing them to be less satisfied?
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And that's where this whole idea of inclusion is what you do and diversity is what you get comes from in my book.
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Yeah, speaking of your book, you know just kind of let listeners know what they can expect when they read it.
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You know the title and where they can get it.
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Well, the book I mean, you can find it at any typical online reseller, like you know, of course, amazon or Goodreads or virtually any online bookstore.
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The title of the book is Measuring Inclusion, because that's ultimately what I talk about.
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But the subtitle, which actually to me was almost the more important part, is Higher Profits and Happier People Without Guesswork or Backlash.
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And, as you can see from the subtitle, I was really trying to hit four points.
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First, higher profits, and I purposefully put that first, because ultimately, I want business leaders to look at this book as a guide on how to maximize their success as a company.
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And how do you do that?
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By having happier people, which is the second part of the title.
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And then I talk about without guesswork or backlash.
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Without guesswork, because I propose a way of measuring inclusion which has not really been done before, which provides you an incredible clarity through not just data, but a combination of data and experiences that people share that can tell you, without any guesswork, exactly what is happening in your organization, how much it's costing you and what you can do about it.
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And I said no without backlash because I could see already when I started writing the book which was, you know, I started writing it almost two years ago, I could see the backlash coming and I knew that it was going to be a big problem and I had to ask myself do I want to write a book about diversity and inclusion when that particular sector is on fire in a negative way?
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But I wanted to head that on, take that head on and I actually write in the book about the backlash, and I talk very clearly toward the back of the book.
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I have two chapters one in which I talk about what I believe are some of the mistakes that we have made collectively in the field of DEI, and then the other one I talk about some of the mistakes that the kind of DEI opponents make and some of the flawed arguments that they use, like when they talk about oh, I don't want to lower the bar, I don't want to hire somebody that's unqualified, we are a meritocracy All of those concepts.
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They sound appealing but they're actually deeply flawed and I help people to see why and how they're deeply flawed.
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And so the book as a whole.
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Really it's a combination of telling about how I came into this work, talking about exactly what I mean by inclusion, how you can measure inclusion, showing some case studies with a variety of companies and organizations for whom we've done some of the work of measuring inclusion, then sharing some of the data that we've collected and the stories that we've heard as part of the data that we collect, and then we have again those two chapters where I talk about some of the problems and the flawed assumptions before concluding the book.
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So it's really meant to be a combination of introducing an entirely new way to do something, but it's also really a very, very different way to think about diversity, equity and inclusion.
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Well, tell us about any upcoming projects.
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Oh well, before we get to that, you know, tell us about your company, aleria.
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Aleria is a it's a public benefit corporation, which means that we are a for-profit company, but as part of our bylaws we have a mission statement.
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That which means that we are a for-profit company, but as part of our bylaws we have a mission statement that talks about the importance of diversity, equity and inclusion.
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So you would describe it as a mission-driven for-profit.
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And when I started the company, my background, as I mentioned, was a lot of.
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It was engineering, computers, neuroscience and I have this approach of building computer simulations that literally replicate the day-to-day experiences, in this case of people in the workplace, to understand how the people and their interactions ultimately lead to what the company is doing as a whole and, conversely, how the way the company behaves impacts the people within it.
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And so the company, initially, was supposed to develop software to help make strategic decisions for leaders about how to manage their personnel with an eye to diversity, equity and inclusion.
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But as I started to do that work, I realized that I felt like I was building a space station for people still riding their bicycles down on Earth and that we were still really far behind in understanding some of these concepts.
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And along the way, one of the things that I realized is that measuring diversity alone was not sufficient, and I needed to understand not just how many black people, how many people you know, how many LGBTQ plus people, how many people with disabilities, how many women.
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That was not enough.
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I need to know how are these people experiencing the workplace as a function of their the workplace as a function of their identity and as a function of how everybody else is behaving around them.
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And so we came up with this way of collecting information and realized very quickly that essentially that's what we were doing.
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We were measuring inclusion Literally.
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We're actually measuring exclusion, if you will, although that's not entirely correct, but we're measuring experiences in the workplace, and then we're using the data to tell us where the company's being more or less inclusive.
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And so that's what Aleria does primarily, although, as I mentioned earlier, we are doing these days a lot of training.
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I do a lot of public speaking, we do webinars.
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We also offer these what we call inclusive leadership training and inclusive management training, and we're seeing a lot of demand for that, precisely because people are scrambling and trying to figure out what to do.
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But so think of Aleria as a combination of a technology company that has a platform to collect and use inclusion data, but also as an educational platform for people to learn about a new way to think about diversity, equity and inclusion that really avoids a lot of the backlash and a lot of the problems that we've seen in the past.
00:22:37.420 --> 00:22:43.346
Well, tell us about any upcoming projects that you and your company are working on that listeners need to be aware of.
00:22:45.441 --> 00:22:48.550
One of the things that we did about a year ago.
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I mentioned this idea that if you have people that are less satisfied, they will produce less and they will cost you money because you have to replace them.
00:22:57.112 --> 00:23:13.531
And about a year ago, we actually expanded our technology platform to include a calculator that actually estimates for any given company the amount of money that they're losing right now invisibly, simply because of the fact that they're not able to treat all their employees the same.
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And initially we thought, oh, this would be kind of a cool little sales tool, help to do sales.
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And what we realized is that when people saw it, they were blown away.
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First, because it literally shows the business impact for their company and it's no longer.
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Oh, let's sprinkle some magic diversity dust and these wonderful things will happen, which, unfortunately, have not actually materialized.
00:23:36.670 --> 00:23:46.411
Instead, we're saying you are losing money right now and we're going to help you figure out why and where you're losing money and what to do to stop losing that money.
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And it turns out that those numbers are actually quite significant.
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We see that a typical company will lose somewhere between 20 and 30% of their net profits invisibly, or put a different way If they were able to treat everybody the same, their net profits could go up by 20 to 30%, and so now what we're doing is that we're actually connecting that to the data itself, so that we're starting to work with companies where they use either our data, if they measure inclusion the way that we do it, but if they've already collected data through engagement surveys or satisfaction surveys or inclusion surveys of their own, then we can take their data, plug it into the calculator to give them significantly more accurate estimates of what specific issues are causing them to lose money, and that means that they can also estimate the return on investment, or ROI, of taking steps to fixing the problems that they identify, and so that is kind of a new thing that we've been working on.
00:24:42.534 --> 00:24:58.086
We're seeing a lot of interest from companies that really have already spent a lot of money collecting data, and then, lo and behold, the data tells them oh look, people of color are less satisfied than white people, and women are less satisfied than men, and people with disabilities are less satisfied than people without disabilities.
00:24:58.086 --> 00:25:09.442
But they don't know what to do with that information, and so we're helping to take that same data they've already collected and turn it into information about their financial success, which they can then use to make decisions about what to do.
00:25:09.442 --> 00:25:22.827
So that's an exciting new turn and an additional direction that makes it even clearer how to link DEI to financial performance, and we're very excited because that's creating even more interest right now.
00:25:25.144 --> 00:25:28.945
We'll throw out your contact info so people can keep up with everything that you're up to.
00:25:30.790 --> 00:25:31.112
Thank you.
00:25:31.112 --> 00:25:37.130
The best way to get a hold of me is my company's website, is aleriatech.
00:25:37.130 --> 00:25:44.604
That's A-L-E-R-I-A, dot T-E-C-H, and you can find me on LinkedIn very, very easily.
00:25:44.604 --> 00:25:58.250
Paolo Gaudiano, the spelling will be in the podcast episode, but it's P-A-O-L-O, the last name is G-A-U-D-I-A-N-O, and there's really only one of me on LinkedIn.
00:25:58.250 --> 00:25:58.952
So then, pretty easy to find.
00:25:58.952 --> 00:26:04.330
And then, as I said, any bookstore, any online bookstore if you look up measuring inclusion, you can find my book quite easily.
00:26:06.580 --> 00:26:08.048
Close us out with some final thoughts.
00:26:08.108 --> 00:26:32.843
Maybe, if there was something I forgot to talk about that you would like to touch on, or any final thoughts you have for the listeners I would say these are very difficult times right now, and I think that a lot of the political wrangling around di, in my opinion, is a bit of a smokescreen to distract us from the fact that what is happening right now is not just an attack on di, but it's a you know dismantling our democracy.
00:26:32.843 --> 00:26:34.330
Basically, I think that the fact that what is happening right now is not just an attack on DEI, but it's dismantling our democracy.
00:26:34.330 --> 00:26:56.688
Basically, I think that the fact that they're using DEI as a wedge to make people hate other people is terrible, and I hope that those of you that are listening whether your opinions are favorable or against DEI realize that a lot of the rhetoric is really just used as a political weapon.
00:26:56.688 --> 00:26:58.674
But ultimately, we all want the same thing.
00:26:59.336 --> 00:27:02.990
We all want to be able to get a job for which we're qualified.
00:27:02.990 --> 00:27:12.384
We want to be able to have the same opportunity as everybody else, once we get into that job, to demonstrate our capabilities and to advance as a function of the work that we're actually doing.
00:27:12.384 --> 00:27:45.371
And so I would really urge people to go beyond the rhetoric, beyond the inflammatory remarks, and realize that ultimately, we're all people and we all want the same things in life, we all want to be able to succeed, and that this idea that somebody's success means that it's going to be your failure is just deeply, deeply, deeply flawed, and so I hope that people will take that into account and, whether they read my book or go to my website or just simply open their minds to the possibility that there are better ways of doing this work, I would find that to be really satisfying if people will do that.
00:27:46.842 --> 00:27:48.047
Go at your website again.
00:27:49.760 --> 00:27:55.388
And the website again is aleriatech.
00:27:56.611 --> 00:27:57.913
All right, ladies and gentlemen.
00:27:57.913 --> 00:28:00.944
So please be sure to visit aleriatech.
00:28:00.944 --> 00:28:05.557
Check out Paulo's book, check out everything that he's up to.
00:28:05.557 --> 00:28:07.281
Keep up with everything that he's up to.
00:28:07.281 --> 00:28:08.442
Follow, rate, review.
00:28:08.442 --> 00:28:10.967
Share this episode to as many people as possible.
00:28:10.967 --> 00:28:11.627
Follow, rate, review.
00:28:11.627 --> 00:28:12.808
Share this episode to as many people as possible.
00:28:12.808 --> 00:28:13.569
Jump on your favorite podcast app.
00:28:13.569 --> 00:28:22.539
Follow the show, share, review, rate us, check us out.
00:28:22.539 --> 00:28:32.709
Go to wwwcurveball337.com for more information on the Living the Dream with Curveball podcast and to keep up with everything.
00:28:32.709 --> 00:28:33.751
Living the dream.
00:28:33.751 --> 00:28:39.742
Thank you for supporting the show, paolo, thank you for all that you do and thank you for joining me.
00:28:40.826 --> 00:28:42.151
Thank you, curtis, really appreciate it.
00:28:42.780 --> 00:28:51.173
For more information on the Living the Dream with Curveball podcast, visit wwwcurveball337.com.
00:28:51.173 --> 00:28:55.329
Until next time, keep living the dream.
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