Sept. 23, 2025
Breaking Free from Shame: Emma Lyons' Journey to Empowerment and Healing
Send us a text In this powerful episode of Living the Dream with Curveball, we are joined by Emma Lyons, a trauma-informed healer and the founder of the Trauma Matrix. Emma shares her transformative journey from aspiring human rights lawyer to a dedicated advocate for women seeking to break free from the shame voice that has hindered their relationships, success, and visibility. She delves into the concept of the inner narcissist—a toxic voice that many carry within—and offers a fresh perspec...
In this powerful episode of Living the Dream with Curveball, we are joined by Emma Lyons, a trauma-informed healer and the founder of the Trauma Matrix. Emma shares her transformative journey from aspiring human rights lawyer to a dedicated advocate for women seeking to break free from the shame voice that has hindered their relationships, success, and visibility. She delves into the concept of the inner narcissist—a toxic voice that many carry within—and offers a fresh perspective on how to confront and dismantle this damaging narrative. Emma reveals her unique five-step process for breaking up with this inner critic, emphasizing the importance of recognizing it as an external force rather than a part of oneself. We explore the deep-rooted effects of childhood dynamics on adult life, the challenges women face in receiving wealth and visibility, and why traditional personal development approaches often fall short. Listeners will gain valuable insights into how to reclaim their power, challenge shame, and foster a healthier relationship with themselves. Don’t miss this enlightening conversation that encourages listeners to take actionable steps towards healing and empowerment.
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> Curtis Jackson (also known as DJ Curveball)>Welcome to the Living the Dream podcast with Curveball. if you believe you can achieve.
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> Curtis Jackson (also known as DJ Curveball)>Welcome to the Living the Dream with Curveball podcast, a, show where I interview guests that teach, motivate and inspire.
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> Curtis Jackson (also known as DJ Curveball)>Today I am joined by Emma Lyons. Emma Lyons is a trauma informed healer and the founder of the Trauma Matrix, which is an organization that helps women break up with the shame voice that has sabotaged their relationships, success and visibility for years. So we're going to be talking to Emma about her story and her organization and what she's up to and gonna be up to.
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> Curtis Jackson (also known as DJ Curveball)>So, Emma, thank you so much for joining me.
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> Emma Lyons>Yeah, great to be here. Thanks so much for having me.
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> Curtis Jackson (also known as DJ Curveball)>Curtis, why don't you start off by telling everybody a little bit about yourself?
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> Emma Lyons>Well, yeah, I mean, I, I started off studying law.
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> Emma Lyons>Actually I wanted to be a human rights lawyer and I went to, I did master's human rights law. I went over to Palestine for three months. And then after that I worked, went and studied law in the uk. And then after that I realized, oh my God, I, I don't want to be a lawyer at all. And I had, what I call a quarter life crisis, kind of like a midlife crisis. But earlier and I was freaking out, I didn't have a purpose. And I found this healing work. And I was really good at it and yoga and I loved it, but I really struggled to make it work. And I was constantly, you know, in healing mode, going to therapy, working on myself. And things didn't really start to fall into place until I started to really getting to the core of what was holding me back, which, which is really shame. And this shaming voice that I have carried inside myself since I was, was young child. And I realized that, you know, people call it the inner, the inner critic, but, but I realized that in my case and in I think a lot of people's cases, it's not just an inner critic because it's constantly shaming you.
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> Emma Lyons>And it's more. I realized that for me that it's, it's a narcissist voice that I've internalized. It checks all the boxes of of, of a narcissist. It's like totally self serving. It pretends to care about you, but really it's just trying to get more and more supply for itself.
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> Emma Lyons>And it really, the voice really just shamed me and made me feel like I was worthless. And until I started to unravel myself from that, that was when I started to really get Free of it and, reclaim my power. And things kind of started to get in, into more of a flow situation in my life rather than this constant struggle and striving and disappointment that had kind of led, that had been in the driver's seat for, for my life previous to that. So now I work with a lot of women, but also men, and, I help them break up with the shame voice that I call the inner narcissist. And, contrary to common wisdom that would say, sit down, sit down with your shame, feel your shame, think about it, empathize with it, feel sorry with it, I have a totally different approach because for me, with, with the narcissist outside and inside, you just want to recognize that it's not you, it has no power over you until, unless you give it power, we give it supply. And I thought it was really interesting that, the conventional wisdom will give you one, one set of guidelines when the narcissist is outside, but when the narcissist is inside your head, doing the exact same techniques, gaslighting, moving the goal post, you know, telling you, shaming you and putting you down, using all the triangulation, all the same strategies. We're told to sit down with it and feel it and treat it like a friend, take it to therapy, empathize with it. And I did that all my life. And, it just got stronger, you know, and this, this voice would become very malignant sometimes and it would tell me things like, oh, there's no point in you being here. You might as well, you know, there's no, no one will miss you if you're gone.
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> Emma Lyons>So this, this, this voice is really the key thing that, and it's not just a voice. It's like an energy of shame that I'd carried with me. And, until I started breaking up with it. That was the point when I started to change my life and took back my power really.
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> Curtis Jackson (also known as DJ Curveball)>Well. You answered my question about the inner narcissist.
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> Curtis Jackson (also known as DJ Curveball)>So let's talk about why high achieving women feel burnout even after, you know, burnout and stuck even after years of doing therapy.
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> Emma Lyons>Yeah, and that's a, that's such a good question, Curtis, because so much of the therapy that, that's out there, it's like making friends with this shame. And if we think about shame like a, it's a, it's kind of caged shame. Shame. The shame voice is shame means you're bad, there's something wrong with you. And, that can never be good. But conventional wisdom will Tell us. And psychotherapy and a lot of therapists, they will talk about healthy shame and toxic shame. So they talk about a little bit of healthy shame is good for you, keeps you humble, keeps you good, keeps you connected to people.
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> Emma Lyons>And really disagree with that strongly, because shame is always a way of controlling. It's not a way of caring for someone. When you're shaming someone, you're trying to control them. You're weaponizing and trying to control them, trying to dominate them. And, when we do that to ourselves with the inner voice, it's the same. It's.
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> Emma Lyons>It's always toxic. So you can never say that there's something that I'm bad and feel like that's good for you in some way. You can.
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> Emma Lyons>And I think a lot of the. A lot of the confusion there is is about people conflate shame and guilt.
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> Emma Lyons>Shame says I'm bad, and guilt says I've done something bad. So when.
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> Emma Lyons>And, yeah, I think I've talked. I've got maybe gone slightly off the point. So, Curtis, you can take me back whenever you're ready. But we. We really need to break up with this shame voice. And that's not what convention a lot of therapy does. It's like moving around the furniture. It's like they. They. A lot of therapy. And the therapy that I did as well, it was kind of like teaching me how to feng shui the furniture while the house was on fire, you know, so it wasn't dealing. You know, we need to put the fire out first, please. You know, it's one thing to do the feng shui the furniture. We've got to deal with the most pressing problem, and that's the shame that people have internalized.
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> Curtis Jackson (also known as DJ Curveball)>Well, speaking up.
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> Curtis Jackson (also known as DJ Curveball)>Speaking of, breaking up with the inner voice, what does the process of breaking up with the inner narcissist look like?
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> Emma Lyons>Yeah, it's, It's. It's really about recognizing that the voice isn't you. This is.
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> Emma Lyons>This is. This is the key thing. And, this is what conventional therapy often doesn't teach you. It teaches you to personalize it and think that it's a wounded part of you. So. So the first step is really recognizing that it's not you.
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> Emma Lyons>And, that it's not trying to help you or protect you. This is the lie that kind of was a big revelation to me, because all my life I've been told that it's a poor thing.
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> Emma Lyons>It's trying to keep me safe, it's trying to protect me.
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> Emma Lyons>But Just like the COVID or the narcissist will smack you across the face and tell you you're no good and tell you that you can't do that. you can't start a podcast. You can't be successful. You're a useless failure. And then in the same breath, it'll tell you that I'm just trying to protect you. I'm just trying to keep you safe. And that, Curtis, is an absolute lie. So I have a five step process for breaking out of this. It's about B, R, E, A K. So the first one is B, and that's break the trance.
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> Emma Lyons>That means you recognize that it's not your voice, that it's a spell, that it's a pattern. It's like you're walking around in a trance. So you want to catch it, you want to interrupt it. Don't overthink it, just name it. Recognize that it's a trance that you're under and that it disrupts the loop instantly. So then r, you want to refuse to engage with it, just like with the narcissist outside. I, use Dr. Ramany. She's a narcissist expert.
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> Emma Lyons>She talks about deep, deep.
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> Emma Lyons>So don't defend, don't engage, don't explain and don't personalize. So you don't. We want to refuse to engage with this voice, the shaming voice. You don't want to defend or engage with it at all. Just say, not today, Satan. M. Not today. It's not happening. Then you want to move on to E, which is expose the lie. So call out this shame based programming, recognize that it's controlling and not care. And then this.
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> Emma Lyons>That's not my story, you know, and speaking that truth disarms the power that it has over you.
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> Emma Lyons>Because the shame voice, the, the inner narcissist, only has power when you give it to us. Then we're going on to A, and that's anchoring it and anchoring it in your body. Come back to your body, feel your breath, plant your feet, say them, say your name, say the year, really come back.
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> Emma Lyons>Remind your nervous system that you're safe and that you're sovereign and that you're here. And then finally, K, it's kick it out, you know, shake it off, stomp it out, this isn't mine. And really evict that spell from your body. So. So goodbye shame, goodbye performance. Goodbye this ghost voice.
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> Emma Lyons>Because it has no power unless you give it the power. Just like the narcissist outside, it only has power if you unknowingly or unwittingly give it power like a light bulb, you know, you're the electricity.
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> Emma Lyons>So disconnect the electricity and it becomes nothing.
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> Emma Lyons>And it's not, it's not. It takes a bit of practice but, but because many people have been practicing really engaging strongly with this shame voice for 20, 30, 40, 50 years.
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> Emma Lyons>But this really does work when you start doing it and it's really powerful because it, to recognize that it's not you, that's really important. And that it's not working for your highest good. those are the two really fundamental key steps there.
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> Curtis Jackson (also known as DJ Curveball)>Well, talk about how childhood dynamics affect success later in people's lives.
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> Emma Lyons>Wow, there's, there's so much because we imprint as children. We imprint, we teach people how to treat us. Curtis.
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> Emma Lyons>and we do it unconsciously, most of us. So as children we take on these roles.
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> Emma Lyons>A lot of the, we become, we take on these dysfunctional shame based roles like the scapegoat are the hero, the one who has to fix everything, the fixer are. We become invisible in order to survive. And these things don't, don't end when we become adults.
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> Emma Lyons>You know, when, when we become adults, we, we take that energy into our adulthood and we live out those same roles. You know, we become. If we're, if we were invisible, you know, that becomes the kind of the safety zone. This feels like normal to me. So we attract people who treat same way that we're used to being treated as children. And where we, we kind of habituate. It's like children with, you know, the dirty, the, the dirty teddy bear. You know, it's not, it's not good for the child, but the child is holding on to it because it feels comfortable. It feels like home. And it's like that with the, it's the same with these roles that we take on as children. And this is why, the reason why we self sabotage, we procrastinate because we're stuck in this, we're stuck in this dysfunctional shame. and that we're, we've taken on from childhood. And until we step out of that, we're kind of, we're not, we don't really get to be ourselves because we're carrying all of the dysfunction from our family roles. If that makes sense.
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> Curtis Jackson (also known as DJ Curveball)>Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
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> Curtis Jackson (also known as DJ Curveball)>And I know that we were, when we were in the green room, you talked about how visibility is not a mindset issue. It's a trauma response. So unpack that for the Listeners and talk about what you meant by that.
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> Emma Lyons>Well, yeah, visibility is, is a huge.
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> Emma Lyons>It's very scary. First of all, I mean, if you were, if you, if you learned that to survive. So say it happens in many families. In my family, I was the, I was the invisible child as well. But say in dysfunctional families where you had a violent or, you know, a problematic parent, for example, many children, in order to survive that, that might learn that the best way to survive is to become invisible. And you know, this is, this is, this is how they learn to survive.
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> Emma Lyons>So when you come, when you're an adult and say you want to start a business or something or be visible, your nervous system is like, hell no. This feels so unsafe. We are going to die if we do that. Facebook Live. You know, it's like your body, well, it's not so much your brain, it's your body recoils at that. And that's, that's the fear and that's when we procrastinate, we self sabotage because we, we, we secretly want to be invisible. We don't want to be. But that's the kind of, that's the imprint that we've taken on. And it's not just in your head, it's in your whole body, Curtis. You know, it's, this is why mindset work is important.
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> Emma Lyons>But it's not the whole, it's not the whole enchilada because this stuff, this trauma gets stored in your body. And we want to, we want to release this stuff some somatically as well. It's not just a thinking thing. It's your body holds these patterns and traumas in your cells and your atoms. And we need to release that in order to really step into a new level where we get to be something that we didn't get to express as children.
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> Curtis Jackson (also known as DJ Curveball)>Well, why do you feel like it is so hard for women to receive things like wealth as well as visibility?
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> Emma Lyons>Yeah, I mean, women especially, we struggle with receiving a lot more than men because, you know, we were taught to be the good girl, to be quiet, you know, more so than men. We're kind of socialized to that. And you know, asking for things can be a little bit taboo. And we don't want to be too much. We don't be quiet, to be nice, to be, to be, you know, to not, not annoy or are dominated. So a lot of women get stuck in this. You know, the trauma responses flight, fright and freeze and fawn. This the one, the fourth one that don't people. A lot of women get stuck in the fawn response. So we're just trying to. People, please.
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> Emma Lyons>Trying to keep everyone happy. And again, this is a survival response. So we don't ask for what we want. And when it comes to receiving, we're like, oh my God, it's not safe.
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> Emma Lyons>If I receive, I'm going to be out of control. So we get, we get so used to running on empty that it doesn't feel safe to even receive a compliment. I mean, I don't know. There are so many women, including myself in the past, who really struggle with compliments. You know, if you give them a compliment, they feel like they, they feel uncomfortable, they feel awkward, they feel like they need to give you something back or, you know, deflect it or say, oh, this whole thing.
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> Emma Lyons>So if they can't even receive a simple compliment, you know, it's going to be the same with money and other things coming into your life. It feels uncomfortable. So we secretly reject it.
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> Emma Lyons>And that's, that's really what's on the root of money blocks. It's not, it's rarely about money.
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> Emma Lyons>It's 99.999 times out of 100. It's it's a fear about receiving.
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> Emma Lyons>and because it's not safe for you to receive. To receive, you have to open and you have to kind of surrender a little bit. And that's terrifying for someone who's stuck in survival mode and kind of frozen there and doesn't know how to relax and surrender so that you can receive. So, and this is, this is what's required in order for us to receive money as well as all the other things.
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> Emma Lyons>And we've got to receive, we've got to recognize that we deserve it too.
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> Emma Lyons>That can also be a problem. But, you know, self worth, believing that you're worthy of it, believing that, you know, let go of control, it's safe.
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> Emma Lyons>So there are so many, so many challenges about around receiving that particularly women experience.
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> Curtis Jackson (also known as DJ Curveball)>Well, I know how I was reading in your bio and you were talking about how self sabotage is not a mindset issue. Talk about what helps you realize that.
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> Emma Lyons>Well, I mean, I'd done a lot of mindset work and nothing was really connecting until, until I started working with the shame voice. You know, the shame that was, that was running. It's like I talk about shame as being the kind of code that, that we use here in, in this traumatized world. Shame is kind of the, the base code, the underlay. If you like of everything. and it's how we think. We think if there's a kind of belief, even in the hustle culture, if you look carefully, you'll see that it's shaming. It shames people.
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> Emma Lyons>You didn't do well enough, you're poor. We, we have this unconscious belief that if you shame people enough, then they'll do better. But for lots of people and for, I believe, for everyone on some level, shame is always toxic. It can get people to move quickly and change their behavior, but it always leaves a toxic imprint. And more women than men internalize that and feel that more. And that leads to, to problems with receiving and relaxing and you know, even, even things like, you know, receiving orgasms. You know, this is, ah, a lot of women struggle with that. And it all stems from the same problem about, you know, feeling safe to open and feeling safe, ah, oh my God, I'm not going to be intact. Not something bad is going to happen. So it's really. And it's in your whole body. It's not just in your mind. Your body freezes.
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> Emma Lyons>It's your nervous system, it's your vagus nerve.
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> Emma Lyons>So it's not. You can't think yourself out of this.
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> Emma Lyons>You've got to work with the body to release this stuck energy and these trapped emotions that we're holding in our body from, from maybe, you know, 50, 60 years ago, whatever it is.
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> Emma Lyons>And those patterns will have also been reinforced over the years, Curtis. So it's not just a case of one and done. We will have. We will have. Because the pattern reinforces itself every time you prove to yourself this is right. Oh, receiving is dangerous. I've got to stay in this fawn response. Whenever you open a little bit, something bad happens. So patterns get reinforced every time and we've got to unwind them from our body. It's not just a mind thing. It's not just a thinking thing that you get to think yourself out of. It's a whole body, kind of freeze that we're in a lot of the time.
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> Curtis Jackson (also known as DJ Curveball)>Do you feel as if traditional personal development is enough for deeper healing? Why or why not?
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> Emma Lyons>Well, yeah, I think, I think a lot of personal development is very shame based. You know, they're like, you should be doing better, you should be making this much money. Why aren't you doing it? You know, it's like the hustle culture you got to fight for, can work for some people. But I do think that it operates a lot out of shame. And it's not, it doesn't work for, for lots of people.
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> Emma Lyons>So I don't think, I don't think it's enough for, for lots of people because lots of us, we carry these deeper trauma responses that need to be worked through. And personal development is great, don't get me wrong. But if you're trying to, if you're just doing, trying to do the affirmations and, you know, brainwash yourself, if you've got this deeper trauma response going on under the surface, your, your system is not going to accept that because it's not safe.
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> Emma Lyons>And, you've got to, you've got to address the core things that, that may require doing some deeper healing that, you know, simple personal development and affirmations and plowing through may not get to completely or it might get it. For some people it works. But, you know, there's always a. Ah. If you don't deal with your, your trauma wounds, you will pay a price. Because this is why people burn out or, you know, they have success and then they lose it all.
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> Emma Lyons>You know, these, these, these patterns play themselves out in different ways for different people. But when you, when you address your trauma and really deal with that level, then you start to open up and, and your system realizes that you can actually thrive without struggling, without fighting your way to the top, without, you know, squashing other people down or battling or hurting other people. You can actually thrive without doing all of that, without becoming, you know, a bad person. You know, you, there's, there's, there's this kind of belief that you have to, you know, when you're going up the ladder, you have to, flatten a few other people on the way up. But that's, that's a belief system that comes from this toxic kind of narcissistic culture that we're in. We can, we can all rise together. But the problem is that most people haven't healed their wounds to see that possibly as a possibility yet.
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> Curtis Jackson (also known as DJ Curveball)>Well, let's talk about one step, everybody could take today to break toxic patterns.
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> Emma Lyons>Well, I think the one thing that people could do, and I love giving this homework to people, well, it's not homework, but just something that you can do at home.
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> Emma Lyons>Just start to become aware of shame in your life. Notice how when you shame yourself, maybe you drop something and you say, oh, my God, I'm so stupid. You know, this is shaming. Shame is, Shame is the voice that says you are bad when, when you, maybe when you do something wrong or when you, when you do something that maybe you could have done differently. Notice that shaming voice inside yourself when you're talking to yourself. Notice when you talk to your kids or when you talk to other people. There is shame interacting there. And look around you, like, look at, look at marketing and promotions. You'll see, you'll notice a lot of shame is used there. People are shamed because it gets a, Notice that it's, it's. You don't have to do that. Notice that it's not, it's not helping you and that it's actually trying to keep you down. It's, it's trying to control you shame, it's not trying to make you better.
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> Emma Lyons>And when you notice that about the voice inside your head, you can start breaking the trauma bond that you have with it and reclaiming your power and stop giving your power to this narcissist, this inner narcissist, as I call it, this inner critic that's basically running your life into the ground in ways that you may not prefer.
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> Curtis Jackson (also known as DJ Curveball)>Tell us about any upcoming projects that you're working on that listeners need to be aware of.
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> Emma Lyons>Yeah, so I mean, for, in terms of the next step, I mean reach out to me on social media.
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> Emma Lyons>I'm a trauma matrix. And you can also. I also have a free gift for people, which is what I would recommend as the next step for people. If you've, if you've been inspired by this conversation.
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> Emma Lyons>I have, have a, I have a free gift for you and it's, it's really cool. It's called five signs that it's time. Time to break up with your inner narcissist.
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> Emma Lyons>So if you're curious about that, you can find that in tinyurl.com not today, narc n A R C.
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> Emma Lyons>So check that out. Follow me on social media because I put lots of kind of resources there and I would say, you know, reach out and get support. Find someone, if you, if you're, if you're recognizing that you may have some of this trauma, I would say first thing is don't decide that you're not going to do it alone because that's a tr. That can be a trauma response as well. And find yourself a community. Find someone who resonates with you. It doesn't have to be me, but find someone who you resonate with, who you feel safe, who has walked the path before you, and can kind of encourage you and promote and encourage you to overcome your trauma and come out stronger, better and a better model for your Kids and for all the people around you, because there are very few good role models for people, People who are really living without shame, running their life.
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> Emma Lyons>And, you can be that for other people if you. If you do the work to release the. The kind of grip that shame has over so many.
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> Emma Lyons>Over. Over you in your life.
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> Curtis Jackson (also known as DJ Curveball)>Well, what's a website that listeners can keep up with everything that you're up to?
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> Emma Lyons>Well, yes, I am rebranding everything at the moment, so the best way to reach out for me, reach out to me is Trauma Matrix on Instagram or over on TikTok. I do have a website, but I'm kind of moving that at the moment. I'm gonna. It's gonna be traumamatrix.com but that's still in the pipeline. But, reach out to me. Send me a dm. let's connect.
00:26:22.699 --> 00:26:29.739
> Curtis Jackson (also known as DJ Curveball)>Close us out with some final thoughts. Maybe that was something I forgot to talk about that you would like to touch on any final thoughts you have for the listeners.
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> Emma Lyons>Final thoughts. Take back your power from this thing. This thing is not helping you. This narcissist, that. That mean voice inside you. It's the reason people, you know, commit suicide without this mean voice, without that narcissist. People don't do that. So it is not. Not helping you. It is not protecting you. It is trying to kill you. And, you don't need to be polite to it. You don't owe it anything.
00:26:56.638 --> 00:26:58.959
> Emma Lyons>But you do owe a lot to yourself.
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> Emma Lyons>So take back your power, take back your life, and, drop that shame, because it is not. It's not working for you. It's working against you.
00:27:11.419 --> 00:27:43.019
> Curtis Jackson (also known as DJ Curveball)>Right? Ladies and gentlemen, check out trauma.com/matrix to keep up with everything that Emma's up to and check out her free gift. Follow Rate Review Share this episode to as many people as possible. Follow us on your favorite podcast platform and Visit us at www.craveballuh337.com for more information on the Living the Dream with Curveball podcast. Thank you for listening and supporting the show. And, Emma, thank you for all that you do. And thank you for joining me.
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> Emma Lyons>Thank you so much, Curtis.
00:27:45.979 --> 00:28:07.739
> Curtis Jackson (also known as DJ Curveball)>For more information on the Living the Dream with Curveball Podcast, visit www.craveball337.com until next time, keep living the dream.
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