From Mozart to Drake: The music that moves Misty Copeland

This transcript was generated by AI and lightly edited by our team. Please excuse any typos or errors.

 

Misty Copeland  00:00

I was the only brown body in a sea of White dancers. There was a lot of difficult times where I'm battling with my love of the art form and these so-called traditions.

 

Sophie Bearman  00:24

This is Life in Seven Songs from The San Francisco Standard. I'm Sophie Bearman. This week, I'm sitting down with Misty Copeland, an American ballet dancer and author who made history in 2015 as the first Black woman to become a principal dancer at the American Ballet Theatre. Misty, who was an incredibly shy kid -- her nickname was 'Mouse' -- grew up in Southern California, one of six siblings, often without stable housing. It was through a series of free classes at a local gym that Misty discovered ballet and her teacher discovered a prodigy. In October 2025, she's performing for the very last time and retiring from a truly extraordinary career. Misty Copeland, welcome to the show.

 

Misty Copeland  01:15

Oh, this is so cool. Thank you for having me.

 

Sophie Bearman  01:18

As a ballet dancer, music, of course, plays a huge role in your professional life, but I'm curious about your relationship to music off stage. I mean, you chose artists ranging from Mozart to Drake for your seven songs. So what role does music play in your personal life? 

 

Misty Copeland  01:35

Oh, my goodness. You know, my mother was young when she was pretty much raising me and my five siblings on her own, and I feel like music was my family's language. We didn't have like, great communication skills, but we did it through music. How we were feeling. Like I became, like, really in touch with lyrics. I wasn't just kind of like bopping my head to the rhythms of a song, but really, like listening to what people were saying, and that made me want to move. And it's such a big part, an integral part, of what I do as a performer.

 

Sophie Bearman  02:07

Your first song is Aretha Franklin's Ain't No Way. This came out in 1968. And you described it in an email to us as the beginning of your choreographic and emotional connection to music. So tell me more about that and the memories this song brings up for you.

 

Misty Copeland  02:23

I was born in Kansas City, Missouri, but I was two years old, we moved to California, where I grew up. And, you know, we didn't often have a home. We were houseless for a lot of my childhood. But I remember being in like, one room, a living room, in like, different apartments, and it just being full of Aretha's voice. Even as like, a five-year-old, I could feel the emotions of the lyrics and of her voice. And this is really around the time when I started to move and express myself through dancing. And though I am not a choreographer, this was like the beginning of this kind of choreographic journey that would eventually bring me to ballet.

 

Music  03:08

[Ain't No Way by Aretha Franklin plays]

 

Misty Copeland  03:25

So good. It's timeless. And this song just -- you can feel, you can feel the emotion through her voice. And she was just such a big part of my childhood.

 

Sophie Bearman  03:37

I also am reacting to what you said about moving a lot or not even having a home, but music being this sort of constant that, you know, it's maybe on a tape or a CD -- small enough that it could kind of travel with you.

 

Misty Copeland  03:50

That is like so perfectly said. No matter where we were, we always had music with us that could travel.

 

Sophie Bearman  03:57

And again, I'm thinking about how Aretha's voice was just so emotional. It's so much for a five-year-old to connect with. You must have really been sorting through a lot in her words.

 

Misty Copeland  04:06

It's so true. I was so young to be connecting to a song like this, and the emotion that, you know, she's, she's kind of putting out there. We were in and out of motels, like, for all of my childhood. Sleeping on people's couches that we didn't know. And there was abuse in the household for some of that. And it made me extremely introverted. And I naturally was already, like, very quiet and shy. But I was so ashamed that I didn't want anyone to get close to me. And music was like this saving grace. I could kind of escape and feel all these emotions that I wasn't allowed to express in my day-to-day life. So, yeah, music has been such a big part of my journey.

 

Sophie Bearman  04:51

So how did ballet come into the picture for you?

 

Misty Copeland  04:54

My mother was a professional cheerleader for the Kansas City Chiefs football team. So I was born in Kansas City, Missouri. My mom is a huge football fan. I think she was like the youngest to ever be taken on. And she only did it because she and her mother wanted tickets to go to the games. And so I didn't have a lot of goals in my young life. It was really like survival from day to day. But I grew up watching her move around the house. When she would put music on, she was dancing and she was moving. And then seeing my oldest sister, Erica, she became a member of the drill team at the middle school in my town. And so that became like, 'Oh, that's the goal. Like, that's what I want to do. I want to follow in their footsteps.' And so when I was 12, I decided to audition for captain of the drill team. And my, my family's like, 'What? Like, you're so shy, you don't want to be seen or heard. Do you understand what it is you're getting yourself into?' And I was like, 'No, I know this is something I can do.' So I choreographed my own routine to George Michael's I Want Your Sex. I was 12, like, who let me do this? I had no dance experience. I'd never taken a dance class. I wasn't a part of any organized sports or anything. I literally did nothing. And I was made captain of the drill team. And the drill team coach, she was like, 'You have a lot of natural talent, and I really would encourage you to take this ballet class that a really close friend of mine teaches at the Boys and Girls Club. You just show up there. There's free classes being offered on the basketball court in the gym.' And I was like, 'What? I don't like ballet.' Like, I knew nothing about it and I had no interest. And so she, like, pretty much forced me to take this class. And from the first class that teacher said, 'I think you're a prodigy. I've never seen a talent like yours.'

 

Sophie Bearman  06:42

Wow.

 

Misty Copeland  06:42

And it all just kind of took off from there. I ended up moving in with my teacher and her family because I had so much training to catch up on. I was 13 at the time when I started dancing, which is really late, because you typically would go on to be a professional in your late teens. So it's quite a quick journey.

 

Sophie Bearman  07:00

It was a whirlwind.

 

Misty Copeland  07:01

Yeah.

 

Sophie Bearman  07:01

This was Cynthia, right? Was that your mentor that you moved in with for three years?

 

Misty Copeland  07:05

Yes. Cynthia Bradley, yes.

 

Sophie Bearman  07:07

How did your relationship with your mom change during that time?

 

Misty Copeland  07:10

Oh, it was so difficult. One of the hardest things was that my family knew nothing about the ballet culture and how things worked and what was normal. And, you know, I have a foundation now, the Misty Copeland Foundation, and we have a program that's very -- really based around educating the communities that we're going into with this free ballet class, and educating the families as well. And that didn't happen with my mom. You know, she felt like her child was being taken away from her, and I don't think she really understood -- and I don't think I even understood -- the magnitude of what my career could be. So it put a big strain on my relationship with her and my siblings, because this became my number one priority, whereas before it was like we were this -- the Copeland clan. And, you know, no one was going to get in between us. And we've come a long way now. They definitely respect and appreciate like, what I've done in my career, but I think what's most impressive to them is the person that I've become because of the art form. I can speak in front of thousands of people, and I was known as 'Mouse' growing up because I was so shy. And just to see this makes them so proud.

 

Sophie Bearman  08:17

Your next song is one that you said you listened to a lot once you were back at your mom's. This is after those really intense three years at Cynthia's. It's Looking In by Mariah Carey. So what was going on emotionally for you when you were listening to this song?

 

Misty Copeland  08:31

Oh, man. Yeah, it was a really tough time. So I lived with my teacher for three years, and I was 15 at the time. And I was thinking about emancipating myself so that I could have the freedom to continue to really have ownership over the money I was making. I was performing in professional situations and getting paid, and we ended up in this whole court case. I mean, it ended very ugly. My mother was getting a restraining order against my ballet teachers, and so I, I was forced to move back home. And my family was -- they were still in the motel, and it was such a -- just a very drastic change for me, you know, where I was so focused and immersed in ballet, and all of a sudden I was just kind of ripped out of that, and back in this motel with my five siblings and my mom. Like, what is my world? Like, what is going on? And Mariah has always been like a throughline in my life. This song in particular, it's called Looking In. I remember coming home to the motel and locking myself in the bathroom for hours at a time, and just listening to this song on repeat and just feeling like, 'Who am I at this point now in my life? And like, what's next?'

 

Music  09:53

[Looking In by Mariah Carey plays]

 

Misty Copeland  10:04

So amazing. I was like, 'Mariah sees me.'

 

Sophie Bearman  10:07

In that song, you know, she's talking about a girl who dreams of all that she can never be, and it's just -- you're at this precipice where it's like you had these dreams and now, are they slipping away? I could see how it just spoke to you in every way.

 

Misty Copeland  10:20

Yeah. 'She wades in insecurity.' And it's so interesting, you know, Mariah was like, the one artist that I feel like we all felt like she belonged to us. You know, being biracial, like, there weren't a lot of like examples or people that even talked about what that identity was and meant to them. And Mariah, I feel like was the first person, a public figure that I really identified with. I guess it was 2018, something like that, was when I actually finally met Mariah, and we're good friends now, but she always gets a little weird when I, when I'm like, 'I dance because of you.' Like, her music was such a saving grace in my life. And she's like, 'No, I can't take that credit.' Like, 'Don't say it.' 

 

Sophie Bearman  11:02

You're like, 'No really.'

 

Misty Copeland  11:03

I'm like, 'Well it's true. It's true.'

 

Sophie Bearman  11:05

So you did move to New York City. It kind of worked out. You joined the American Ballet Theatre. Your next song is Run to the Sun by N.E.R.D., and this captures those sort of early New York years. Tell me about that.

 

Misty Copeland  11:21

Oh my gosh. You know, I was living in New York City, and it was like, 'This is so incredible.' And from 10 to seven every day, I was at American Ballet Theatre. But I was the only Black woman in the company, and felt so almost detached. And this would go on for the first 10 years of my career. And I felt like I didn't really connect to a lot of the people I was working with, but I would leave the studios at seven o'clock and would be in this diverse city with so much at my fingertips, and I felt like I was in this kind of rebellious stage, kind of like figuring out who I wanted to be, and just fell in love with N.E.R.D. and The Neptunes and, like, you know, Pharrell and Chad and what they were, you know, creating. I definitely thought I was a skater girl, even though I didn't want to skate and I had my trucker hat on. Like, I had a million trucker hats. I had this trucker hat that said, 'Misty loves Pharrell' on it.

 

Sophie Bearman  12:20

That's incredible.

 

Misty Copeland  12:21

Like, so embarrassing, but I just felt so free. Like, 'I'm gonna figure out who I want to be.' And it just felt, like, limitless, and especially when I listened to N.E.R.D.

 

Music  12:44

[Run to the Sun by N.E.R.D. plays]

 

Misty Copeland  12:50

The memories! Me and my best friend, Leyla, just like running all over the city and just like -- this was like the soundtrack to self discovery.

 

Sophie Bearman  13:00

I grew up in New York City as well, and spent my 20s there, and like, so many of my memories are just 3am on the subway, or, I don't know, losing a purse somewhere in Brooklyn. You know, is that? Like, what, what were you Leyla doing? Like, where were you guys?

 

Misty Copeland  13:15

Oh, my God, concerts. We were like, 'We're gonna go. We want to be out in the world.' And we went to a lot of nightclubs. We lived at Lotus. That was down in the Meatpacking -- we, like, literally lived there. I met my husband there. It's been 20 years now. We were just exploring, and it's actually, you know, it's a very unique friendship that we had and experience. Because so many dancers are kind of pigeonholed in this kind of bubble -- this ballet community bubble -- where you feel so afraid to venture out. And then it's so difficult when you reach this point of, you know, you have all your training and then they're like, 'Okay, and now you have to step up and be an artist.' And it's like, 'Well, what life experiences am I pulling from if I'm just stuck in a studio my whole life?'

 

Sophie Bearman  13:58

I was just thinking that if you don't know who you are, how can you actually express yourself on stage?

 

Misty Copeland  14:03

Totally.

 

Sophie Bearman  14:04

You were the only Black woman out of 80 dancers in the company at that time. As you're experiencing this joy outside of ABT, I'm curious, what were some of the challenges around race that were happening at that professional level?

 

Misty Copeland  14:20

You know, this is 20 plus years ago now, and the ballet world really hasn't come that far in that time, but it was very different than it is now. You know, the conversations around race were so taboo. People didn't feel comfortable talking about it. I think, almost, a lot of Black and brown dancers have felt like, 'I might not get an opportunity if I'm voicing these things.' And so, you know, I was not getting a lot of opportunities, specifically in the classical repertoire, because it's often really hard for these companies to imagine a Black woman, you know, as the lead in a classical work. In this time, I remember dealing with the company filming the ballet Swan Lake. I had been in the corps de ballet, and so, you know, the large body of dancers that frame the dancers in the center. And I'd done Swan Lake hundreds of shows, probably. And I wasn't cast for the filming of it, and heard from one of the ballet mistresses that it was because I would ruin the aesthetic. And they didn't want it to be something that was like documented. Because I was the only brown body in a sea of White dancers. So, I mean, there was a lot of just difficult times where, you know, I'm battling with my love of the art form, and, you know, going up against these so-called traditions -- that I didn't belong, but yet I was accepted into the company. It was a really difficult time in my career.

 

Sophie Bearman  15:55

It's time for a quick break. When we come back, Misty makes history. Stay with us.

 

Sophie Bearman  16:24

You chose another song, Mozart's Piano Concerto Number 21 and 23 -- I guess they're often paired together -- which you danced to at the Erik Bruhn Prize in 2007. For those who aren't familiar, can you explain why this is such a huge deal and what this moment meant for you?

 

Misty Copeland  16:42

Yeah, I was still in the corps de ballet, and I fought really hard to be given the opportunity to do classical works. Like, I've known what I'm capable of and why I was accepted into this company, and really challenged my artistic director to nurture me, and he gave me this opportunity. It was a really big deal in the professional ballet world. There are young professional dancers selected from all the top companies in the world, and they come together in Canada, and they compete. So I was selected. And one of the pieces that I performed was a ballet called Petite Mort by choreographer Jiří Kylián. And it's absolutely one of my favorite -- it's just one of the most incredible pieces.

 

Music  17:50

[Petite Mort by Jiří Kylián plays]

 

Misty Copeland  17:51

I can like, see the choreography, too, as I listen, because it's so perfectly matched with the music. And after performing in this competition, a couple of months after, I was promoted to soloist. And I think that it was because of my artistic director getting to see me under this type of pressure, performing as the lead. And so it's really meaningful to me.

 

Sophie Bearman  18:15

You've made history so many times. You were promoted to soloist shortly after that show. And then in 2015 you made history again -- and I'm sure I'm skipping many moments -- when you were promoted to become the first Black female principal dancer in ABT history. And around the same time, there was a bigger conversation happening around race in America. And I know that that was impacting you in a deep way. And your next song reflects that -- it's J. Cole's Be Free. Why did you choose this song? What struck you so much about it?

 

Misty Copeland  18:46

Oh my gosh. The thing, the thing is, this song has really resonated with so many different injustices, and I'm a huge fan of J. Cole. And he's just so honest and real. And it really also just connected with the responsibility that I feel being a public figure and having visibility, you know, American Ballet Theatre has given me and that I've kind of built outside of the company. This song has, like, allowed me to reflect on not just what it is to be a Black person, like, in America, but, you know, the systems of ballet as well. You know, these institutions that are not always welcoming and diverse and open.

 

Sophie Bearman  19:30

For those who don't know, J. Cole released this song a few days after a police officer killed Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri.

 

Misty Copeland  19:39

You can just, like, hear it in his voice. You know, like, I love that rawness and like, the cracking of his voice, and that just feels so honest and vulnerable.

 

Music  19:39

[Be Free by J. Cole plays]

 

Sophie Bearman  19:43

And the simplicity of the lyrics too. It's like, it's not a big ask. When it comes to the experience of Black and brown ballet dancers, you know, you've pushed for change in your books -- telling young dancers, you know, 'Yes, you can do this too.' You have diversity initiatives like Project Plie -- to so many other things. Can you tell me about a moment big or small when you felt this work was really making a difference?

 

Misty Copeland  20:01

Yeah. I mean, this is a big moment. I was still a soloist in the company at American Ballet Theatre, and I was given my first opportunity to perform the lead in a full length classical work. And it was Stravinsky's Firebird. And choreographer Alexei Ratmansky selected me. It was the very first performance in New York City at Lincoln Center, at the Metropolitan Opera House. And I had recently signed with a manager, which is very rare in the ballet community. And we were doing so much, you know, to be able to show young, Black and brown children especially that they belonged in these spaces too. We were going to public schools on my days off, and just speaking to kids and just saying, like, 'I'm real, here I am. This is what I'm doing.' And so all of that work really, like, came to fruition that first performance of Firebird in New York City, where I saw a sold-out show, full house, of Black and brown people in a way that I'd never seen in that space. That was, like, this means something to see yourself reflected. And it doesn't have to be just ballet. It's, you know, whatever it is you're dreaming of doing, you belong there and deserve to be there.

 

Sophie Bearman  21:43

You were also dealing with some serious injury then, right? So I just want to say you are tough as nails, and I'm sure that you were dancing through it, right, because of this responsibility, in a way. Was that part of it? 

 

Misty Copeland  21:54

Yeah, I was dancing on six stress fractures. I ended up pulling out of the season after that performance and taking a year off and had surgery on my leg and everything. But yeah, I mean, I felt like, 'This opportunity -- I don't know if I'm ever going to get a chance like this again.' I was in my late 20s, early 30s, which is older, in ballet, to be given your first chance to do a leading role. So I really felt I owe it to so many people who have put in the work and come before me to take advantage of the opportunity that I've been given.

 

Sophie Bearman  22:29

We've talked about race. I'm also curious about how you dealt with the difference in class. You know, you mentioned when you started out, your family was still living in a motel and then you're thrust into this super elite environment. Was there a time when you felt like you didn't belong to either world?

 

Misty Copeland  22:46

You know, I never really felt that way when it came to ballet, because I guess I've always felt so at home within ballet. And once you become a part of a company, you're all like on even playing field. I think that when you really start to kind of feel that separation is, you know, we go from kind of like this grind of being starving artists in the city. You're in rehearsal and you're sweating and you're taking the train and living in these tiny apartments. And then at night, you're surrounded by, like, millionaires at these fundraisers and galas for the company and board members. And I think that's very interesting. And I think the world is intrigued by, which is why there's so many movies that focus on those types of things when they -- when ballet is depicted. You know, you feel like an object. Back in the day, the ballerinas were called 'le petit rat.' They were like prostitutes. So, you know, these, these wealthy men would come, and they were like, funding the ballet, and the companies -- late 1800s and early 1900s. And they, you know, they'd come to the ballet, and then they were kind of given a dancer. It's still kind of this, like, similar idea, where half of my paycheck has been paid for by someone who's funding it, who's, like, considered my sponsor. Not everyone has that experience, but like, if you're like, a promising dancer, the company might assign you a sponsor. It was not my experience, but a lot of the time you're, like, expected to go to dinner with them, and it's just kind of like how it works.

 

Sophie Bearman  24:22

Thank you for sharing that. That's really complicated, I'm sure. So your next song, it's also tied to a dance -- a different kind of dance. It's Sade's Kiss of Life. What do you picture when you hear this one?

 

Misty Copeland  24:37

This was our first dance, my husband and I at our wedding. So that's what I picture, just moving with him and feeling so happy and fulfilled. Sade was a big part of my childhood and my upbringing, and also my husband's as well. The first concert he went to was a Sade concert, so we definitely bonded over her music when we, like, met. But her voice is just -- it's warmth. It's love.

 

Music  25:05

[Kiss of Life by Sade plays]

 

Misty Copeland  25:06

We just went out there and we were like singing the song and moving, just twirling me and just doing what, like felt normal and natural. Like something we would do in our house, because we like to dance.

 

Sophie Bearman  25:35

And you met him all the way back at the club right when you were just--

 

Misty Copeland  25:38

21 years old. It was pretty wild. Olu and I were together for, I think, 10 years before we got married. I really wanted to make sure he was the right one. I knew. I knew. I knew from day one that, like, that he was right for me because he was such a strong support system. I mean, he waited to propose to me until I was promoted to principal dancer, because he didn't want to distract me. Like, that says so much about him. Even when I was on an off season and we would travel and go on vacations, I still have my pointe shoes with me. And he would, you know, be arranging, you know, cars and or driving me an hour away to find a local ballet studio or a gym that I could continue my training. So he's -- it's amazing to have, you know, like a real partner in life. And then to see him become a father and be like a real partner in that way -- it's just like, unbelievable.

 

Sophie Bearman  26:36

We're talking about your career mostly here, but you also became a mother in the last few years. Do you want to include or share anything about that?

 

Misty Copeland  26:45

Yeah, I love being a mother. And my son, Jackson's three now. It's pretty cool just to be able to give him opportunities that I didn't have growing up. He actually just started playing violin. He chose and everyone's like, 'Three? Isn't that a little young?' I'm like, 'I don't know. He's showing interest. And he's, like, focused and into it.' So he's not in a situation that I grew up in, which was like survival. And just like constant stress and worry. And so, to be able to give that to him is so incredible. And this is something that I've always wanted.

 

Sophie Bearman  27:19

Your last song is Drake's Nice for What. You're also featured in the music video. What did this song represent at that moment in your life?

 

Misty Copeland  27:27

I mean, I'm a huge Drake fan. I mean, like, from the beginning, like when he was still, like underground. Like, in the dressing room, getting ready to do Swan Lake, like, I'm not listening to Tchaikovsky. I'm listening to Drake before. Like, getting hyped up. And so when they called, at first, I was like, 'Oh, my God, I would love to,' but, you know, you got to think about, like, my brand and like, what is this song? What is it going to be about? And so it was really, you know, about, just like a celebration of women and all the, like, intricacies and complexities of womanhood. So when he was saying, like, all of the amazing women that were going to be a part of it, I was like, 'Oh my gosh, yes, absolutely.' So when we shot the video, he filmed each woman, like, in a completely different -- we weren't all together, like in one space. And I remember I was leaving for Japan, like the next day to go on tour with ABT and so I had like, such a small window. I'm like, 'Sorry, Drake. I only have like an hour to shoot this video.' So we made it happen, like, so quickly. I did like, five costume changes, and was like, 'Let's go! We can do it!' And, like, and then it turned out really awesome. 

 

Sophie Bearman  28:37

It did. It did.

 

Music  28:39

[Nice for What by Drake plays]

 

Misty Copeland  28:59

I feel like the backbone of my journey, my success, has been because of incredible women in my life. My mom. Cynthia Bradley, Elizabeth Cantine, who were there from the beginning, who literally introduced me to dance and to ballet. And then I think about Raven Wilkinson, you know, first Black ballerina to dance in an all-White like major company in the 1950s who was an incredible friend and mentor of mine. Susan Fales-Hills and Victoria Rowell. The list goes on, but these women that have just like, lifted me up and carried me. 

 

Sophie Bearman  29:32

You emailed, you said, this song feels like a personal victory lap. And I'm thinking that this idea of a personal victory lap feels very fitting, especially since you announced you're retiring after 25 years. Your last performance is coming up soon, in October. How does it feel to have that milestone approaching?

 

Misty Copeland  29:50

Amazing. I can't get away from people asking me about it. I'm like at the dentist, like, 'How are you feeling?' I'm like, 'I feel great.' You know, it's been five years since I've been on the stage, so having this like, official last -- and it's not a farewell. I'm not retiring from dance. I hate that word 'retirement.' I'm calling it a 'farewell' because it's literally a thank you to all the people who have supported me on my journey at American Ballet Theatre. A thank you to the company. You know, this was my dream company that from the moment I started dancing, I was following them and learning about their history. And then it was the only company I had my eyes on to dance in. And I just feel really excited. It should be like a party and a celebration. I'll probably be listening to Nice for What before I go on.

 

Sophie Bearman  30:36

Misty, thank you so much for sharing your seven songs.

 

Misty Copeland  30:39

Thank you so much.

 

Sophie Bearman  31:05

Life in Seven Songs is a production from The San Francisco Standard. If you're listening and haven't subscribed to the show yet, please do. It makes a huge difference for us. Our senior producer is Jasmyn Morris. Our producers are Michelle Lanz, who also mixes the show, and Tessa Kramer. Our theme music is by Kate Davis and Zubin Hensler. Jess Hutchison created our show art. Our music consultant is Sarah Tembeckjian. Executive Producers are Griffin Gaffney, Jon Steinberg, and me. As always, you can find this guest's full playlist at sf.news/spotify. I'm Sophie Bearman. Thank you for listening, and I'll see you next week.