You’re Building… But Are You Breaking? | Jabin Chavez

0:00 It's a real bummer when you're kind of succeeding publicly, but like you're just literally not happy in every season. There's a new challenge. Every level has new has devils, has new problems, has new challenges. We thought church was gonna be this in this season, and it's not. Oh, someone has to be the leader of this thing if we're gonna get through this. Right. I need to embrace even more being the spiritual father of my church and of my staff. So city light, church, city light, city lit. City lit. Most people in the city are lit. A lot of lit people come to church. Especially that one o'clock.

0:40 For those of that one o'clock. For those that don't know, Las Vegas, Las Vegas, Nevada. Yes, sir. Urban Chavez, my friend, excited for what God's doing. I've just, I feel, I feel fortunate that you know you and I connected the last few years, but I I feel I feel fortunate that our past intersected because I kind of feel a part of your, you know, the opening of the new building. And just I I I feel, you know, when I celebrate everything God's doing there. No, I mean, yeah, I really appreciate you. I I remember, I want to think it's the first time we met, but maybe we met in Louisiana at the hunt, but I feel like we met here because I came and toured the building to come get ideas. That's right, yeah.

1:21 When we were building our building. Uh-huh. And so um, yeah, I can't remember what year that was, but I mean it was before we were done designing our building. So it was a while back. And so you planted the church how long ago? We planted the church seven years ago. Okay. And then in May of 2025, we moved into uh our first permanent space. So before that, portable. Portable all the way up until that point. Yeah, high school middle schools, high schools. Of course, any, you know, people realize like the property and you know, Las Vegas. I mean, that's quite an endeavor and and actually a a short, a shorter timeline to have gotten a permanent building. Yeah, no, it's not a small feat. It was a miracle.

2:01 I mean, we bought we bought an initial five acres for 3.2 million, and then during construction, the five acres next to us came available. And it was really a miracle on all the zoning city side of it, and even just financially the fact that we were able to do it. We were able to buy another five acres for 5.6 million. So now we're on 10 acres and uh a thousand-seat auditorium. Auditorium. And uh, we were just saying it's you know exciting because this will be your first like spring you're coming into. We're we're here together because we have a couple of things happening.

2:41 Um 2026 here, we we kicked the year off. So you're you're here, we've been today together, and and and a lot of leaders coming in, getting encouraged through Lead to Win Gathering, and then you're speaking tonight because our church has a three-night prayer fasting special night. We're pumped about that. But um, you know, I want to I want to dig in a little bit to you know, you have a leadership podcast. And so um I think I I I want to dig in a little bit into things you've been thinking about. But when I think about you, I'm thinking about okay, youth pastor, youth pastor, then moving now to senior pastor, yeah.

3:26 Going through your first as a senior pastor building project. Right, yeah. That's a that's an that's a leadership. Barely made it. Almost quit, joined your team. You want a milestone location in Vegas? Oh man, you joke about that, but how many pastors like build the building? Literally, like the buildings built and then they quit before they get in the building. Brutal. It can be It was brutal. It was more brutal than I expected. Expected, and more brutal almost when it was done. It was like, what just happened? What did I just do for three years? You know what I mean? It's like, ah, you know, you kind of like wake up out of a well, because you have your you know, you have your real job, then you're you have this, and it's very important to you because you want to serve the people and you want it to be right, and then and then when you're just taking ground, totally kingdom, right?

4:15 Spiritual weight and all of that. So I thought, I thought, what have been some lessons? Okay. So let's let's go back right now, and I don't, I don't think because we have teachers and business leaders and college students and young people, we have people in all different like realms listen to this. But what I find is there's a lot there's a lot of parallels, right? So I'm really thinking, okay, you know, how do you know as a youth pastor, God has an assignment for you? How do you navigate that? And then how what have been the the, you know, if you were to go back and talk to your younger self, and here's three or four things you would say to somebody, how can they learn off of you that you've learned with if they're about to step into a new assignment, or maybe they feel like they should be in something right, right?

5:09 What what would you say? Well, yeah, I think I would start with if you're feeling transition, I almost feel like step one is like go try to like pray and repent it away. Like, is there anything because I was working for Jensen Franklin, who's my pastor, it was the dream job of I was on the teaching team, worship, uh living in Newport Beach, California. I mean, you couldn't beat it. Uh he's the he's just the greatest. So on you know, quality of life, you you name it. And then I'm feeling this thing to plant a church. So I would say for months it was like prayer walk after prayer walk after fasting after talking to my wife, going, is what what is that?

5:58 Maybe let me try to get this out of me. Right. Because, like, you know, and then when you kind of can't pray it away, yeah, and you can't fast it away, but but I think be patient. Uh, there's an old preacher who said, I'd rather be late in the will of God than early out of the will of God. There you go. So I think like, man, take your time. Because I when I planted, we were 34, I felt so old. Now I'm 42 going, I was so young, you know, like, man, I should have waited until after COVID. That would have that would have been amazing, right? Like, so I just think when you're a young leader, you feel, I gotta go.

6:39 Right. I don't have, I don't have much time. You have so much time. Right. Learn, enjoy. And so we went through that process. Then we started talking with Pastor about, okay, what would this look like? And I, you know, I never put the God card down and said, Thus saith the Lord. I said, I'm I'm inviting you into this. Yeah. What do you think? What do you, you know? And he literally went, I I need more time. I need you here longer. Right. And that was so gracious of him. And I said, Done. Right. I'm sticking around. Like, and I I literally said, I'm not going without your blessing. Like that's that's we're in this together. So it's beautiful on both fronts, right? Because now you're in that seat. But for him to say, Hey, I need this, but I do see this.

7:19 So he did affirm that, hey, I'm gonna take some time, I need to, but I see this, yeah, which is really a beautiful thing. And I and I definitely think there should be that. You know, like in Acts, when they're making decisions and the apostles go, this seems good to us and the Holy Spirit, right? They've been praying, they've been fasting, and they go, Yeah. So I think there needs to be a witness with leadership, a witness with the Holy Spirit, a witness with your spouse, a witness with trusted friends, who can really look at you and go, nah, man, you're you're crazy. Or no, we yeah, we sense this as well. So, you know, I look back on that season now and I'm grateful for it.

7:59 And I just tell young leaders, like, don't be in a hurry. Number, number two, invite wise counsel. Right. And and by the way, now I'm 42, a senior pastor. I'm still inviting wise counsel. I'm still calling you, I'm still calling Jensen, I'm still calling Jacob Aranza, I'm still calling Pastor Steve. I'm you know what I mean? Like, I'm still like, hey, can you help me through this? So I didn't, you know, I wasn't independent and isolated. I was connected, and now I am now. Right. And I would say on genuinely, I'm not over-exaggerating. I'm gonna talk about this a little bit tonight. I was talking to my best friend this week, um, and I said, Brian, I just want to thank you.

8:42 I said, I truly believe I'm in it right now, in the game right now, because of you. Yeah, and my point is he so many times prayed for me, talked me off the ledge. Like, so don't, you know, if you're isolated as the youth guy, worship guy, evangelist guy, and you think it's you against the world, it's gonna destroy, you're gonna need people when you're senior pastoring. Right. More, even more, yeah, even more. Yeah. So I think I learned that lesson. Um, it's one of the things I I think I did well. Yeah. And invited Jensen into it super early.

9:24 And uh and have still invited him into our life and decision making. It's beautiful. Yeah. So you first start with, oh, I'm gonna pray this away. And and and I think what what part of that is also that you're being fruitful where you're planted, right? It typically, I'm not always saying, but it typically isn't God, as I say, you're running from something instead of running to something. It's kind of like if I could get a different surroundings, this would be something better. I mean, this isn't for you, you're you're flourishing. I mean, you're actually probably getting more opportunities in terms of traveling and exposure. And and Jensen had blessed that.

10:06 So God's using you in terms of communicating. Then you're submitting it, right? And then you're also like open-handed with the timing, right? So just because we we see where we're going, you're you're open-handed there. And then, of course, then God sends you into that assignment. What has been the biggest learning lesson that you've had stepping into seven years? New assignment, new role, new weight? Well, I would say that the first the first two years of the church, 2018 to 2020, we went from zero to a thousand.

10:47 And I I believed wrongly that I could just preach and pray, and I didn't have to be a leader. And you can which we haven't prayed a lot together, but you you, you know, if anyone could just preach their way out of it, you've got that gift drive. You know, I think I assume you're probably a pretty good prayer. But I thought I'm gonna just gonna pray. I'm gonna be a I'm gonna be on the mountain. And COVID taught me, no, you actually have to be a leader. Yeah. And so I think that was the shift in 2020 that I had to go. My my who I am at the core is prophetic prayer, grew up in revival, charismatic chaos.

11:35 You know, just the and it was really in 2020 I went, okay, someone, oh, someone has to be the leader of this thing if we're gonna get through this. Right. And I had to kind of shift to being a leader, and I would say, I wish I would have done that two years earlier than that. I think we would even be further ahead. So becoming a leader. Um, and the way that I have kind of defined it in my own head for me, and it helps our team, is that a leader has a conviction that what they're doing is important. And I think that's so key for leaders. Like what I'm doing is important in the earth for the people, for my family, for my business, for my church.

12:16 Um, I am doing an important work, I'm on this wall, Nehemiah said, and I ain't coming down for you. Yeah, so you have to have that conviction, and whether it's the small tasks, the meetings, the whatever. But then it's the skill to invite people into that important work. So that's the second part. So it's it's conviction, it's heart, but then it's skill, it's head. So I had to learn then the skill of becoming a vision caster, bringing people along, yeah, inviting people on the journey. And that was really I I had to become that starting in 2020. Yeah. And so, and it even changed how I preached.

12:57 And people will tell me that now, like, man, I mean this in the best way. You're you're a different preacher now. And I think because I just had to I had to learn how to talk different, walk different, think different, bring the team different. And so, but it was it was crisis through COVID that made me go, okay, I guess, I guess I'm it. And I guess I have to leave. It's probably not, I mean, it's probably not a a common transition in terms of like, because generally if you're a good crowd, good preacher, like you, you, you, you may not ever end up in a scenario where you would would would maybe have the revelation to do it or the crisis or the pressure or the pain enough to do it.

13:42 Yeah. I will say being a local church pastor will push that. Because I mean, that's all I've ever I've I spoke at my first conference when I was in my late 40s. So like all I've ever done is, you know, be a pastor, build people, that kind of thing. So the the the podcast and some of this is new for me, right? So it's it's kind of a new thing. Well, and and I think too, there's really great advice from when when you're way down the road of like, you know, do what only you can do. And I think all that's great. Eventually, you're probably entering into that season. I'm not there yet. I'm not in the season of do what only I can do. I gotta do everything. I'm still, you know, we're seven years old, I'm 42.

14:25 Yeah. I'm we're still in kids and in youth and in worship and in social media posts, and like we're still in all of it. Yeah. And so and and I think I earlier had embraced like, hey, I'm just gonna do it, I can do it. I'm just gonna preach. Only I can do that. And then you realize, like, no, you actually have to get your hands in it, yeah, at least for a a good season, you know. And so we kind of had to embrace that. And I I just think I and I think once you do and you realize that's important, and God gives you grace for that. What's been the hardest part? What's what's kind of like as you started making that transition, okay?

15:05 So I mean, you what what's been the hardest leadership thing that you're like, I'm still trying to get a hold of this? I I think just in general, you have your and I would say this is true for everybody in their own way, but you have your personality and you have your strengths. Right. But there is gonna be a requirement to do things out of your personality, out of your strengths. And if you're like if you're a psycho like me, which uh what I mean by that is I'm an artist, I'm a worshiper. I was the you know, before we planted the church, I was going to bed at 4 a.m., waking up at 1 p.m.

15:46 I was, you know what I mean, like a totally different way of living. Right. I I had to embrace a different way. And then, you know, you plant your church and you say things like, and I still to this day go, hey, we're not for everybody. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, there's plenty of great churches in town, you know, until people leave your church, right? Because they didn't like how you responded to that tragedy, or they didn't like how you posted about that, or they didn't like and you're, you know, so all the things you you say that you know are true. And and when you're emotional, yeah, that hurts a lot more. Right. So you're really having to process. And I've been talking to our team a lot about this, and I think maybe this could help somebody you want to be aware of the sheep, listening, smell like the sheep, right?

16:35 But you never want to make decisions out of fear. We're very true. And I think, and I don't know the balance yet. I think that's why I'm trying to be around you and great men of God, because well, we need more discipleship. Okay, okay. Yeah. You know, and they say that, and you go, Well, yeah, of course, you know, we need more Holy Spirit. We need more right, right. No, no, no, no, no. Yeah, you gotta, yeah. You want to Well, the challenge is we are sheep, right? And we need a great shepherd. Yeah, but we are also shepherds of the sheep. So I think you're exactly right. I mean, a good shepherd, actually, um, I've I've talked about this in my book, When with People, um, when it when it talks about know the state of your flocks, it it's it's like it it really technically in the Hebrew means look into their face.

17:22 Wow. So actually, a good shepherd isn't necessarily responding to what the sheep is saying, so to speak, but they are able to read the indicators. So I would think, you know, um okay, I want to ask you about this before I forget. Because you're talking about pain points right now, pain points. So we went, we basically went from 3,000 to 5,000 overnight with the building. Right. I think people, because we were portable, had expectations of what church was gonna be like in the building. So the Pentecostals thought we're gonna have more Holy Ghost services and the and the discipleship people thought we're gonna have more classes, and everybody had an idea.

18:11 Right. And and kind of had a grace for us based off of well, we don't love this now, but they're gonna get in that building and they're gonna fix fill in the blank. Right. Well, we get in the building and we don't fix fill in the blank because we actually like the church that we built portably. So I feel like we're actually in a season of I don't know if disappointment's the right word. Yeah. I don't know if you can talk to us who've maybe gone through this, but like the unmet expectation of we at we we thought church was gonna be this in this season, and it's not. I feel like I'm facing that a lot right now.

18:51 And that's what I mean by like not making decisions out of fear. Well, to you know, we're here to, and I I spoke about um my message was fast don't last today, right? Yeah, it's amazing. And I qualified it, right? That God does suddenly, for instance, very few people will ever lead something that we went from 3,000 to 5,000, and it's a move of God. And I know in that y'all are gonna baptize people, people are getting saved, babies. You know, there's certain people want to disdain that, but we know in the book of Acts, man, that there was these these moments, you know, 5,000 added, blah, blah, blah. Okay. But what I do think, and this would be, I think you have really one of two choices.

19:35 Respond to the expectation, or even ignore the expectation, or act like the expectation doesn't exist. Or my my recommendation, the only winning strategy and the responsibility you have is clarity of vision. What I actually think is it's not a response to a response to what they thought or they said. It's not about what we're against. It's not about defending what we are. It is about at every level of growth requires a greater level of clarity of vision. Well, yeah. So what's what's really happening is not an unmet expectation. It's you and your friends were around the table, and it was like, here's who we are, and here's what we're about, and this is what we're doing, and this is what so what it's done for me at every level is a greater demand.

20:24 You say tomato, I say tomato. Well, get, I mean, my my I believe that's probably one of my most challenging things amidst the noise of culture. So, what I would say to you is in those moments, I call them galvanized moments. I've gone back and done a seven-week series on here's who we are, here's who we're not, here's, you know, um, you know, and and I do also think your assimilation process, you end up getting, I think you start off, hey man, you know, come on. And and slowly, more and more, you're like, hey, I I want to, I I say in our step one, hey, we're not itching our wagon, do you?

21:05 Yeah, yeah. I say stuff like that. Yep. And I don't mean that mean, and I'm kind and I tell jokes and stuff, but I have to be very clear. And you know what the saddest part of when you allow someone to hitch their wagon to you that aren't, they're not ultimately committed to the vision of where you're going, is it actually takes up time and energy for people who will actually uh want to be with you, and these people really because it's gonna culminate eventually at a moment, which is sometimes in these crazy moments and tragic, you know, the soundbite moments and trag. What we really find out is church grew, and there's a collection of people who don't really know who we are.

21:47 Right. We haven't really changed. Yeah, like we was like woke up one day and said, Well let's do this. Right. It's just it's just there was enough uh intensity around the moment. To put them in touch with. Right, right. Oh, so they're Yeah, yeah. Oh, so he's a Republican or oh, he's a whatever. Or he's a yeah, yeah. Yeah, he's a whatever, right? Or he's uh he's he's um he actually so so like when you announce we're building a building, why does that create a pressure moment? Well, there's people like, well man, they're serious about this race to loss thing, like like millions of dollars series. Right, right. And then there's people who go, Why did I thought they were just yep hypothetically you follow me?

22:31 Well, yeah, like we're we're doing this big, beautiful uh kind of porch area, right? It's almost like what you have, but without the glass surrounding it. It's just gonna be like an outdoor because we have great weather. And uh, you know, so you get the cheers, and then you get the we should give that money to the poor. You know, right? You don't need a porch, right? We can give that to the poor, you know. Right. And it's like, yeah. And it and it reminds me, okay, I need to get back to the why. I need to get back to the why was that important? Why do we need connection points? Lobby's too small, got to get people connected. But it, yeah, so it is. So then that goes back to that goes back to because I mean we've had those comments before, but we're giving more money to missions and more outreach than we ever have before.

23:20 But we spent, you know, a little bit more resource on some of that because we did want to have a relational church. I think the the the patio at a church that's like we just want you to come and exit. In fact, we hired a consultant and they're like, you got to get these people off campus. Wow. And it's like, well, we wanna we want them on campus. Wow. So we actually intentionally spent dollars to create to keep them longer, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Problem of the parking lot, problem with getting them off. That that helps me. And it so it's been shocking because I went from again, kind of back to the challenge thing.

24:01 I went from the pushback of building a building, right? Which was why do we need to spend all this money? Jabin's just out for money, Jabin, Jabin just wants our money. Jabin only celebrates the big gifts, you know, all the pushback that you get. And not and it's all all of that. It's like, what do we do? I thought we're helping people. Then you get in the building, and it's like, you know, it's not like it was, and I don't feel as connected. Right. It's really big now. I don't see him as much. And yeah, where's the discipleship? So it is interesting how in every season there's a new challenge. Maybe that my encouragement to leaders watching is like every level has new devils, has new problems, has new challenges, has new, and I know that, right?

24:46 But it is wild to be in it because as the church gets bigger, in my in our case, those problems just get bigger, louder. Right. And it's like, all right, navigating that has been has been. I mean, I'll just I say it's theory, but I've sort of tested it. I think the the larger percentage of people though, you know, you're a man of integrity, character, you're leading, you're y'all I've I've I've watched and followed. Like you, you know, you you don't really wake up one day and be like, we're gonna be this. You know, it's it's pretty much kind of the same thing.

25:27 Yeah, you're getting better, you're doing, but I think the majority of people um are coming based on God's place them there. Yeah, they're hearing that message. And I just think today it's it's actually a much smaller minority, but it's all kind of in how are we getting that information? What does that look like? You know, how do you you recently talked a little bit because I want to shift gears on that in fact as well, is how are we getting our inputs, right? So is this there's you know, 500 people emailed the church? Is it some friends connected to your wife and your family? So that made some proximity, so it makes it sound like there's more people.

26:08 Was it literally they walked up to you in the foyer? Right. Because I I'm gonna say as our as you're as what you're stewarding grows, it becomes harder to go now, yeah. What what what is it? Yeah, I think we all ask that today with media, like like, is this real? Yeah, is it real? Yeah, is this real? I mean, what where how do I, you know, do you, you know, I know some pastors were like doing surveys, you know, in COVID, right? Yeah, yeah. You know, where are they? It's so funny. Our uh our worship director, she sent out this survey to all the worship team. Yeah. And she got all this feedback. She was just devastated. And I go, your first problem, why'd you send out a survey? What were you thinking?

26:49 I was just trying to connect with the team. And I said, girl, no, you you know, so I I do agree. And that's what I kind of go back to like, no, we've got to make our steps by faith, not by fear, not responding to okay, someone said something about we need more classes, so we're gonna do more class, or you know, we're gonna do more, whatever. You have to know, like you got to go back to God, back to your gift, back to your grace. You were talking about this this morning. Your session this morning was so unbelievable. And I don't know where my camera is, but you got to come to the leaders' gathering in January because it's so it's like it's watching you in your grace zone. It's it's Michael Jordan, it's 1997, and we're in the United Center, and it's like that's your that's your space.

27:35 So, like people leaders need to come and and watch you uh talk, but you were talking about that today, just like you know, the guy. Well, when are you gonna start teaching deeper? You know, when are we gonna do a line by line book study? You know, it's like, oh man, I was pretty happy with my sermon until I walked out in the lobby. So you do have to get back to that place of faith. What am I called to do? Yeah. I'm not the church down the street, I'm not that guy, I'm not that guy. Right. So what we're doing, uh, there's a there's a people within this city called to us, and right, we're reaching them. And so I love what you said. I mean, you have you have a conviction, you have a calling, you have a vision from God. And I think that that's the only difference.

28:17 Um I you know, being a pastor for 30 years, and you in so many ways, you have probably more instincts, more intuition, such a grace, connectivity, all of that. There's so much about, and I want to talk about this for a minute because I'm I'm going somewhere with you did a podcast on social media, comparison. You know, we're talking about the nuance of the world we live in. Because used to when when you had this people you were leading, you know, they had to do a phone tree or you know, they had to have a meeting, and now so now now leaders, I don't think just pastors, I think school superintendents, teachers, business people are trying to go, how do I not stick my head in the sand and and and ignore, but how do I get real, how do I have a real uh in-touch sense of where people are really at, you know?

29:12 And and so only difference in I think me at my phase is what really happens is you just become more comfortable and you know more who you are. And you're just like, well, this is now I will say you from 34 to 40, something does happen, I believe, when you cross 40. There's a there's kind of a settling in, and then like a 50, and I don't I'm not trying to put numerical ages, but I'm saying you you do really just kind of you're just like, I can't be something other than this. Now I'm gonna grow here and I'm gonna grow there. Yep. And I think I think today people are just hungry for someone that'll just come out and go, well, this is this is who we are.

29:54 Right. You know, like because they they they have so much ability to engage in different they're the they're more people are more educated at some level of the different viewpoints, yeah, yeah. And exposed, and your church is, and they they come to you and go, hey, I was listening to this guy. Yeah, you've got to I think that a lot of what helped me, especially over the last few years, is like finding a tribe, getting around a group of people on some level, which whether it's you know making it a point to come out here, go to you know, Louisiana in January or you know, on and on and on.

30:35 But getting around like-minded people, I think is so huge. I think it's finding, if you're a preacher, finding a few preachers that really make uh your your your baby leap, right? That John Jesus moment, where it's like, so I'm not listening to 30 different preachers, but there's a few guys I listened to that man, they they kind of help me and it, you know, it kind of wakes something up in me. I think that has been huge. And then I think that the the comparison thing, if you've got great friends and you're in a great tribe, it's gonna be a lot harder to be insecure.

31:16 True. When you're isolated, you're all by yourself, it's just you and your Instagram. Right. You're you're cooked, you're done. It's true. You're you're you're done. It's true. But if you've got a great crew, you you know, you can look at a guy and go, oh, that's great for him. That is not what we're doing. Or man, that guy's awesome, but yeah, you know, or man, he's a great friend, but I'd probably never have him preach for me. But I love him. Yeah. Because that's not what we're doing. Right. So I I think I had to kind of settle into all that. And again, I'm I am talking from a place I think now people like people don't even realize I sing or was a worship leader, and people kind of look at me as like a leader or a Bible teacher.

31:56 Yeah, yeah, yeah. You gotta real, like, I'm just a Pentecostal preacher artist. I've had to, I've had to grow out of a lot of that to emotionally handle. Right. And I don't feel like I'm being not true to who I am, right? But I just had to grow out of some of that to kind of settle into something that's sustainable. God gives you grace for it. My son said something to me last week. He said, You're the most rhythm-oriented person I know. Now I'm not an artist, but I might I'm I would probably be a little more spontaneous than people might look at me and think, okay, his responsibilities and stuff.

32:38 But what what happened was is the stewardship of a family and a church and and and the and the call built, I be I just began to build over time, you know, rhythms and and things. And I just I just stay true to those because I wanna I want to steward to the best of my ability what God's put in front of me. It wouldn't be my natural nature though. Wow. I probably wouldn't go to bed at four with you, but I probably wouldn't go to bed at 10. I'd be like, what's what's up what's up? Yeah, hang out. I wouldn't, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna probably be a little more spontaneous. I'm not as I wouldn't be as systematic. I built so many organizational systematic rhythms to be good to my team, to be good for my wife, to be good for my family that wouldn't come natural to me.

33:27 So when you say rhythm, are you talking about decisions that make life more sustainable? Is that how you would so I think rhythm and balance, I talk a lot about rhythm and balance. So, you know, when you you know you talk about balance, you hear a lot of people falsely, you know, the Bible talks about a false balance as an abomination. I used to preach that because I like I like balance. I think good theology is kind of I I'm one of these people who can see the extremes. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Today, though, the way you really get a following is be extreme. Be extreme, that's right. Okay, but but the Bible actually isn't talking about balance, talking about unjust weights. It's actually talking about cheating people. But when you look at the Bible to everything, there's a season.

34:08 So there's there's a rhythm. A balance is trying to achieve something that that you could only temporarily succeed at. Like you can only stay on your foot for so long. Well, rhythm is cooperating with the season. So what do I mean? Like if you're getting a master's degree, there may be a difference in how you're living to fit that season of time. Yeah, but if your life continues to go on in that rhythm, and then if you're having a baby or if you're starting a church, but but yeah, I've I I see things. Um one of my number one questions is what's your calendar or what's your week? And I think I see things through a day, I think I see things through a week. I think some people get better at their week, but not a lot of people are good at their quarter, or not a lot of good people are good at their six months.

34:54 So there's one part of it that's weekly, but there's also a part of it that's creating some rhythms that are a part of. And so, yes, I think the coaching I've had, the mentors I've had, the pain I've had, the demand of being who God's called me to be cause me, like what you're saying, you're saying probably wouldn't be my personality, but the call drew me to it. And what you really find is once you settle into it, you're like, I actually actually really do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's actually great. It's actually more sustainable to do it that way. Yeah.

35:35 No, for sure. And I mean, I even had to do that with, you know, uh guys will talk to me about like, man, how do you preach for 30 minutes? Well, it's like, well, because I got to do it five times. Right. So I don't have the luxury of going 48 minutes at this service and preach 130 tonight. Just let's go. Okay, yes, yes, Lord. But you know what I mean? Because in the weekly grind, I totally got it. Yeah. And I got to come back next week and do this again. And so I'm only gonna give you 30 minutes of context. I need another sermon. So I think it's finding all of that that is such a huge thing. Because because you are, I mean, I I realize you're in your early 40s, but because you spent so much time in your 30s as what I I think of it kind of like as a bridge leader, right?

36:19 Because now you're you're hitting this phase and you're building a team and then you're you're you're dad. But I think I do think people listening to this podcast, I'm gonna bring up this is kind of the last track I want us to go on, and I want you just to unpack it because I was touching on it a little bit with social media and communication, but I think a lot of leaders out there are asking the question about the next generation, right? So there's all these generational questions. And of course, you hear the people that are just negative, you know, like they don't want to work and you know, it's like I get a little bit like because I love I love all these young people we're training up and that we like to sort of broad brush, a generalization about everyone in an entire generation.

37:05 Yeah, yeah. But what do you think are some of the things that you're I mean, I'm sure you have a lot of younger leaders on your staff. Like, what are some of the uniquenesses with social media, technology, AI now? What I mean, all the the stuff's stuff that they're they're dealing with what what what are some things as leaders that we could do better to work with younger people? Yeah. I think, I mean, I think relationship is huge. And so figuring out what your relationship is gonna be to your team and your staff and to your, you're gonna have to, I think you do have to figure that out. Create again, kind of back to rhythm, and it's gotta be healthy for you, you gotta be able to sustain it.

37:50 Um but they they need they need the same thing we needed when we were 20. Right. Now, they're a little different in that when I was 20, it's like that's the man of God. And if you do something wrong, you're out of cover and God's gonna kill you, right? So that's Elijah. So they don't have that, right? They don't have that honor thing that at least in in Pentecost growing up, I had. But they they do love you, they do want relationship, they do want to be around. So I think you have to kind of decide what that's gonna look like. I even felt that this morning listening to you guys. I just thought I need to embrace even more at 42, being the spiritual father of my church and of my staff.

38:36 And I've got to get out of just team leader, and I've got to get more family just in my approach. Yeah. Um I think they need that. And then I I think the other thing is just they're they're 20, so they're gonna act 20. They're 25, they're gonna act 25 the same way we did. And I thank God when I was 25, I didn't have Instagram yet and TikTok yet. And oh my gosh, I know. I think I'd I don't I'd be in jail or I don't know where I'd be. So thank God I didn't have I was stupid, but at least it wasn't public. Right.

39:16 So you've got to also give grace for the fact that they are living their entire life on their phone, they're exposed. They are gonna say some dumb things, just like I would have if I would have had the platform to do it, but I just didn't have it yet. And so you're gonna have to walk them through that. You're gonna have to kind of walk them through the fact that they're living, they are living their private life publicly, right? We didn't do that, right? And we kind of even my generation, even a or my age, even a little different than yours, but like we're not living our life nearly as public as the 30-year-old and then the 20-year-old, right?

40:00 You know what I mean? And so you've got to kind of give grace to that, and you've got to just be able to pastor them through that. And we've got all these, yeah, 22-year-olds on the team, 25-year-olds on the team, and they they are their age and they're amazing, but you just I think it's a lot of time, I think it's a lot of conversation. Right. It's a lot of, hey, there's here's how I think. Oh, yeah. Let me let me, you know. And uh so I think that's the that that's we underestimate you have to go back and communicate, you know, because you kind of get in this phase of I would say to a lot of team leaders, I know even for myself, the patience to over-communicate.

40:43 You gotta go back and be willing to say it and say it again and I thought we already had this, but it's like that's I think you have to have that grace to do it if you're gonna raise young leaders. I think that's the most taxing thing for my wife and I, because we were such self-starters and we were such like grinders. It was it's been shocking to us. It's like, oh, and I don't I don't know if you've talked about this a lot or but they need a manager. Yeah. And I think, right, management was all that craze in the 70s and 80s, and then leadership took over. Yeah. And we stopped talking about management. I don't know where the balance is.

41:25 But I'm actually even settling into okay, there's actually a lot of people on my team, they're not leaders. That's okay. That's okay. They need to be managed, they're doers. They're workers, they love God, they love people. They're maybe even they're pastors, yeah, but they're not leaders. Yeah. And uh Stephen Furtick told me that one time, I mean a name drop, but he told me he said, I was telling him, I'm working so hard every Tuesday to bring this leadership talk to my staff, and I'm drained. He goes, Why are you talking to your staff like they're leaders? And what he was saying is, he was like, You have leaders on your staff. Right. But you're trying to bring this leadership gold to doers and to people who need to be managed, and people who love Jesus and love you, but they're not so he so he's like, we we manage some, we inspire some, we lead some, some become leaders, some become some are just great pastors who I think you just have to kind of embrace that whole system.

42:27 So having the right system, the right conversation in the right environment with the right guys, yeah. And the right people that makes sense. And that's been a I think good for me. Yeah. Like I've I figure out there's some people on our team, I'm like, man, you're a great pastor. Yeah. You love people, you want to go to the hospital, you're on the phone. You need those people. You are a terrible leader. You can't like, and that's okay. And then it's like, man, that guy's got the gift of leadership on his life. We've got to work with him. And he's a little brash and he's a little cocky and he's a little, you know, but we've got to work with him because that's he's got a leadership thing. Yeah. And then this person's a great manager. They love to just look at the entire system and execute.

43:08 Doesn't necessarily mean they're a great leader. Yeah. So I've been there, there's been a lot of that lately. And then, and then through all of that, communicate why, why, why, why, why, why, just the why over and over and over again, which I have found is really taxing for me, but it's just so important. You just got to do it. It's just part of being. Well, man, what what would you I mean, I know this is because you have your own podcast, you do podcasts, but I don't know. Sometimes I always just love to like what's on your heart or what what what what's a thought or something, you know, that just you think would be would encourage a leader out there or give them like if you kind of had a, you know, what's the uh you know, in a message, you know, we didn't even talk about preaching, but you're an amazing preacher.

43:57 But it's like it's really interesting. Sometimes part of the message comes and that you don't have the other part. Like you it's like, okay, I got I got I got this passage. I and I got this and then so and I find sometimes it's like I need the inspiration. I need the the thing that's gonna really that you walk away or catch with. What what what would you say to just the lead to win? Um you know um I I feel I feel a responsibility just to give away what the deposit I have, right? Um what would you what what what what would you uh say is something that you'd be inspired to share with them or to give away or something we're giving away at lead to win.

44:45 I don't know, you've been here for a day. What do you feel like we should give away more? That's another thought, just you know. Well that's that yeah, that's a that's a whole other thing. I would say uh uh a hundred percent people should especially if you're a pastor, you you should come to the event in January get around you, get around the grace that's on you. Because I think some of it a lot of it can be communicated through books and podcasts, and that's why we do it and do resource and I do it, and but there's some about being in the room, and I'll I'll even say this about you.

45:25 I remember going, uh Steven Verdi, who uh used to do a thing called inside elevation. I remember going and going, oh, I get it. Now I get now I just saw you in your thing. Like he wasn't at Hillsong, he wasn't at whatever. He was in his ecosystem with his team. And I just remember going like, oh, I get you now. Oh, I know this is you, this is your genius. And it unlocks something in me. I feel like that about all great leaders when they invite you into their space, you get to see them in like a you just kind of go like, oh, oh yeah, this is okay.

46:09 You're you're awesome, and I get to see you in the thing you've uh orchestrated. So I would say to people that they should come get around you because there's just part of it is like that grace impartation thing that just like you're like, oh, okay, no, I got I got something that's even beyond the letter or beyond the you know the podcast. I would say to leaders though, that um they they come to John in John 1 and they go, Who are you? Are you Elijah? Are you a prophet? Are you the Messiah? Are you and John starts with I'm not not I am, I'm not, I'm not the Messiah, I'm not Elijah, I'm not a prophet.

46:54 He said, But I am a voice. So he was able to figure out who he was not, that's really good, and who he was, and he was able to just kind of live in that. And I think again, when you figure out who you are and who you're not, you can now invite the tribe, the family, the people, the city within the city that's called to you. I think even sometimes pastors end up building churches that work, but they're not even super happy in the thing because it's not even who they were. Yeah. So I would say my my strength, whatever is I'm I'm pretty secure and I'm I'm pretty sure I know who I'm pretty sure I know who I'm not.

47:46 Right. Right. I'm not Steve Robinson. You know, I'm listening to him today going, Jesus, you are so smart, and I'm not, you know. I'm not Craig Rochelle, I'm not Jeff Little, I'm not, but I am, but I have a voice. Right. But I am a voice. 100%. And I think when you you settle into that, it doesn't mean you don't grow, it doesn't mean you don't get sharper. 100%. Doesn't mean you don't grow your capacity, but it does mean like, no, I I know what I do, right? I know who I am, I know what I'm not, I know who I'm not. And I would just say whether you're a real estate agent or a a barista or a stay-at-home mom or a pastor or a youth pastor, you need to do the work of discovering that.

48:28 And then what happens is this this whole group of people find you. Right. So, you know, we've got thousands of people coming to church, and I walk into that lobby every week and I go, How'd you find us? Right. We saw a clip, or a friend invited us, or we we've been watching on YouTube, or a friend saw you at milestone in Keller, Texas, and told us we need to go to your church, whatever. And your people start to find you because you're in your thing, you're in your grace. I love that. And I just think preachers need to embrace that, leaders need to embrace that. Right. Because it's a real bummer when you're kind of succeeding publicly, but I don't and I don't even mean failing like in sin or but like you're just literally not happy.

49:16 You're just you're not fulfilled. And I can say right now, I love my life, I love my family, I love my church, because I feel like I'm being true. That's good to who I am and who I'm not. And I I think that's so good. It's incredibly freeing, too, right? I think so, yeah. I think it's so freeing just to be like, this is this is how God made me, this is who I am. I think that is so powerful. Thank you for being my friend. Thank you for for carrying the carrying the torch and and and and all of what God's doing. We celebrate that and uh excited about what God's going to do. I mean, we I think I think I think people out there, I I say this, that there's certain places where in the body of Christ we should we should rally around, you know, and and I think that you know, anytime in a Seattle or you and I've been a part of what Steve Robinson, who you mentioned is opening a campus in New Orleans or places I don't think, I mean, of Vegas, those there are these places where all of us should get excited.

50:22 And so we're we're all cheering you. Yeah, we're praying for you, we're cheering you on, and and believing for great things. So thank God. I want to say thank you for checking out this episode of the Lead to Win podcast. I want you to know that I love and my team loves getting this kind of content into your life so it can help you lead and win at what matters most. So I'd love for you to do me a favor like, comment, especially subscribe if you would, so that we can make sure that we're able to get to you some of the things that are gonna help you lead to win.