March 3, 2026

You’re Building… But Are You Breaking? | Jabin Chavez

You’re Building… But Are You Breaking? | Jabin Chavez
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In this episode of the Lead to Win podcast, Jabin Chavez joins Pastor Jeff to talk about the real cost of leadership at the next level. From public success and private pressure to unmet expectations and pushback, this conversation gets honest about what happens when expansion exposes your internal health.

New levels bring new devils.
New influence brings new responsibility.
And if you’re not healthy, growth will reveal it.

Jabin shares practical wisdom on leading through criticism, building the right team, embracing spiritual maturity, and staying grounded when momentum increases. If you’re building something meaningful — in ministry, business, or leadership — this episode will challenge you to focus not just on growth, but on depth.

Because the question isn’t how big you can grow.
It’s how healthy you are when you get there.

TIMESTAMPS
0:00 - Public Success, Private Strain
1:45 - Vegas Church Plant And Building Miracle
5:55 - From Youth Pastor To Senior Leader
9:50 - Discernment, Timing, And Wise Counsel
14:35 - COVID Shock: Becoming A Leader
18:30 - Casting Vision And Inviting People In
23:20 - Growth Surges And Unmet Expectations
28:40 - Clarity Of Vision Over Crowd Noise
33:10 - Designing Spaces For Connection
36:50 - Filtering Feedback And Inputs
41:20 - Tribe, Comparison, And Security
45:10 - Rhythm Over Balance For Sustainability
49:20 - Managing Time, Systems, And Sermons

LEAD TO WIN RESOURCES
More Resources: https://leadtowin.com/
Win With People: https://leadtowin.com/pages/win-with-...
Register for Leaders Gathering: https://leadersgathering.leadtowin.com/
Information on Milestone Church: https://milestonechurch.com/

FIND US AT: https://leadtowin.com

GET IN TOUCH: Contact us at info@leadtowin.com

FOLLOW PASTOR JEFF
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jefflittle/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pastorjefflittle

FOLLOW LEAD TO WIN
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/leadto.win/

00:00 - Public Success, Private Strain

01:45 - Vegas Church Plant And Building Miracle

05:55 - From Youth Pastor To Senior Leader

09:50 - Discernment, Timing, And Wise Counsel

14:35 - COVID Shock: Becoming A Leader

18:30 - Casting Vision And Inviting People In

23:20 - Growth Surges And Unmet Expectations

28:40 - Clarity Of Vision Over Crowd Noise

33:10 - Designing Spaces For Connection

36:50 - Filtering Feedback And Inputs

41:20 - Tribe, Comparison, And Security

45:10 - Rhythm Over Balance For Sustainability

49:20 - Managing Time, Systems, And Sermons

WEBVTT

00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:07.120
It's a real bummer when you're kind of succeeding publicly, but like you're just literally not happy in every season.

00:00:07.200 --> 00:00:08.000
There's a new challenge.

00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:14.160
Every level has new has devils, has new problems, has new challenges.

00:00:14.400 --> 00:00:18.640
We thought church was gonna be this in this season, and it's not.

00:00:19.359 --> 00:00:22.399
Oh, someone has to be the leader of this thing if we're gonna get through this.

00:00:22.559 --> 00:00:22.800
Right.

00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:28.879
I need to embrace even more being the spiritual father of my church and of my staff.

00:00:29.120 --> 00:00:32.399
So city light, church, city light, city lit.

00:00:32.640 --> 00:00:33.280
City lit.

00:00:33.920 --> 00:00:35.840
Most people in the city are lit.

00:00:36.159 --> 00:00:38.560
A lot of lit people come to church.

00:00:38.960 --> 00:00:40.479
Especially that one o'clock.

00:00:40.799 --> 00:00:41.600
For those of that one o'clock.

00:00:41.840 --> 00:00:45.280
For those that don't know, Las Vegas, Las Vegas, Nevada.

00:00:45.439 --> 00:00:45.840
Yes, sir.

00:00:46.079 --> 00:00:49.759
Urban Chavez, my friend, excited for what God's doing.

00:00:49.920 --> 00:01:02.640
I've just, I feel, I feel fortunate that you know you and I connected the last few years, but I I feel I feel fortunate that our past intersected because I kind of feel a part of your, you know, the opening of the new building.

00:01:03.200 --> 00:01:06.879
And just I I I feel, you know, when I celebrate everything God's doing there.

00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:08.879
No, I mean, yeah, I really appreciate you.

00:01:09.040 --> 00:01:20.079
I I remember, I want to think it's the first time we met, but maybe we met in Louisiana at the hunt, but I feel like we met here because I came and toured the building to come get ideas.

00:01:20.480 --> 00:01:21.120
That's right, yeah.

00:01:21.359 --> 00:01:22.879
When we were building our building.

00:01:22.959 --> 00:01:23.359
Uh-huh.

00:01:23.599 --> 00:01:29.840
And so um, yeah, I can't remember what year that was, but I mean it was before we were done designing our building.

00:01:29.920 --> 00:01:31.439
So it was a while back.

00:01:31.840 --> 00:01:33.840
And so you planted the church how long ago?

00:01:34.079 --> 00:01:35.680
We planted the church seven years ago.

00:01:35.920 --> 00:01:36.079
Okay.

00:01:36.239 --> 00:01:41.680
And then in May of 2025, we moved into uh our first permanent space.

00:01:41.760 --> 00:01:42.959
So before that, portable.

00:01:43.280 --> 00:01:45.359
Portable all the way up until that point.

00:01:45.599 --> 00:01:47.519
Yeah, high school middle schools, high schools.

00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:52.400
Of course, any, you know, people realize like the property and you know, Las Vegas.

00:01:52.480 --> 00:01:59.040
I mean, that's quite an endeavor and and actually a a short, a shorter timeline to have gotten a permanent building.

00:01:59.359 --> 00:02:00.560
Yeah, no, it's not a small feat.

00:02:00.959 --> 00:02:01.519
It was a miracle.

00:02:01.599 --> 00:02:12.960
I mean, we bought we bought an initial five acres for 3.2 million, and then during construction, the five acres next to us came available.

00:02:13.199 --> 00:02:20.400
And it was really a miracle on all the zoning city side of it, and even just financially the fact that we were able to do it.

00:02:20.479 --> 00:02:24.879
We were able to buy another five acres for 5.6 million.

00:02:25.280 --> 00:02:30.400
So now we're on 10 acres and uh a thousand-seat auditorium.

00:02:30.879 --> 00:02:31.599
Auditorium.

00:02:31.759 --> 00:02:37.039
And uh, we were just saying it's you know exciting because this will be your first like spring you're coming into.

00:02:37.439 --> 00:02:41.439
We're we're here together because we have a couple of things happening.

00:02:41.840 --> 00:02:45.280
Um 2026 here, we we kicked the year off.

00:02:45.439 --> 00:02:59.520
So you're you're here, we've been today together, and and and a lot of leaders coming in, getting encouraged through Lead to Win Gathering, and then you're speaking tonight because our church has a three-night prayer fasting special night.

00:02:59.599 --> 00:03:00.639
We're pumped about that.

00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:07.680
But um, you know, I want to I want to dig in a little bit to you know, you have a leadership podcast.

00:03:08.319 --> 00:03:16.000
And so um I think I I I want to dig in a little bit into things you've been thinking about.

00:03:16.080 --> 00:03:26.719
But when I think about you, I'm thinking about okay, youth pastor, youth pastor, then moving now to senior pastor, yeah.

00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:30.080
Going through your first as a senior pastor building project.

00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:30.639
Right, yeah.

00:03:30.800 --> 00:03:32.560
That's a that's an that's a leadership.

00:03:32.879 --> 00:03:34.080
Barely made it.

00:03:35.199 --> 00:03:36.800
Almost quit, joined your team.

00:03:37.120 --> 00:03:39.360
You want a milestone location in Vegas?

00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:45.360
Oh man, you joke about that, but how many pastors like build the building?

00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:48.960
Literally, like the buildings built and then they quit before they get in the building.

00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:49.680
Brutal.

00:03:49.840 --> 00:03:51.120
It can be It was brutal.

00:03:51.199 --> 00:03:53.360
It was more brutal than I expected.

00:03:53.680 --> 00:03:57.199
Expected, and more brutal almost when it was done.

00:03:57.280 --> 00:03:58.319
It was like, what just happened?

00:03:58.560 --> 00:03:59.759
What did I just do for three years?

00:03:59.919 --> 00:04:00.400
You know what I mean?

00:04:00.479 --> 00:04:15.599
It's like, ah, you know, you kind of like wake up out of a well, because you have your you know, you have your real job, then you're you have this, and it's very important to you because you want to serve the people and you want it to be right, and then and then when you're just taking ground, totally kingdom, right?

00:04:15.919 --> 00:04:18.879
Spiritual weight and all of that.

00:04:19.199 --> 00:04:22.800
So I thought, I thought, what have been some lessons?

00:04:22.879 --> 00:04:23.120
Okay.

00:04:23.279 --> 00:04:36.319
So let's let's go back right now, and I don't, I don't think because we have teachers and business leaders and college students and young people, we have people in all different like realms listen to this.

00:04:36.800 --> 00:04:40.399
But what I find is there's a lot there's a lot of parallels, right?

00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:47.680
So I'm really thinking, okay, you know, how do you know as a youth pastor, God has an assignment for you?

00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:49.600
How do you navigate that?

00:04:50.000 --> 00:05:09.120
And then how what have been the the, you know, if you were to go back and talk to your younger self, and here's three or four things you would say to somebody, how can they learn off of you that you've learned with if they're about to step into a new assignment, or maybe they feel like they should be in something right, right?

00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:10.079
What what would you say?

00:05:10.319 --> 00:05:20.959
Well, yeah, I think I would start with if you're feeling transition, I almost feel like step one is like go try to like pray and repent it away.

00:05:21.199 --> 00:05:34.560
Like, is there anything because I was working for Jensen Franklin, who's my pastor, it was the dream job of I was on the teaching team, worship, uh living in Newport Beach, California.

00:05:34.639 --> 00:05:36.319
I mean, you couldn't beat it.

00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:39.199
Uh he's the he's just the greatest.

00:05:39.279 --> 00:05:41.519
So on you know, quality of life, you you name it.

00:05:41.600 --> 00:05:46.000
And then I'm feeling this thing to plant a church.

00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:58.000
So I would say for months it was like prayer walk after prayer walk after fasting after talking to my wife, going, is what what is that?

00:05:58.160 --> 00:06:00.319
Maybe let me try to get this out of me.

00:06:00.560 --> 00:06:00.879
Right.

00:06:01.199 --> 00:06:11.199
Because, like, you know, and then when you kind of can't pray it away, yeah, and you can't fast it away, but but I think be patient.

00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:16.480
Uh, there's an old preacher who said, I'd rather be late in the will of God than early out of the will of God.

00:06:16.639 --> 00:06:17.199
There you go.

00:06:17.439 --> 00:06:20.240
So I think like, man, take your time.

00:06:20.319 --> 00:06:24.639
Because I when I planted, we were 34, I felt so old.

00:06:24.879 --> 00:06:30.879
Now I'm 42 going, I was so young, you know, like, man, I should have waited until after COVID.

00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:33.839
That would have that would have been amazing, right?

00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:38.959
Like, so I just think when you're a young leader, you feel, I gotta go.

00:06:39.120 --> 00:06:39.279
Right.

00:06:39.519 --> 00:06:40.800
I don't have, I don't have much time.

00:06:40.959 --> 00:06:42.240
You have so much time.

00:06:42.399 --> 00:06:42.959
Right.

00:06:43.759 --> 00:06:45.120
Learn, enjoy.

00:06:45.199 --> 00:06:46.720
And so we went through that process.

00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:50.319
Then we started talking with Pastor about, okay, what would this look like?

00:06:50.480 --> 00:06:54.160
And I, you know, I never put the God card down and said, Thus saith the Lord.

00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:56.240
I said, I'm I'm inviting you into this.

00:06:56.399 --> 00:06:57.040
Yeah.

00:06:57.519 --> 00:06:58.720
What do you think?

00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:00.000
What do you, you know?

00:07:00.160 --> 00:07:02.319
And he literally went, I I need more time.

00:07:02.480 --> 00:07:03.519
I need you here longer.

00:07:03.680 --> 00:07:03.920
Right.

00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:05.279
And that was so gracious of him.

00:07:05.360 --> 00:07:06.240
And I said, Done.

00:07:06.319 --> 00:07:06.560
Right.

00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:07.439
I'm sticking around.

00:07:07.519 --> 00:07:10.560
Like, and I I literally said, I'm not going without your blessing.

00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:12.399
Like that's that's we're in this together.

00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:14.800
So it's beautiful on both fronts, right?

00:07:14.959 --> 00:07:16.079
Because now you're in that seat.

00:07:16.160 --> 00:07:19.040
But for him to say, Hey, I need this, but I do see this.

00:07:19.199 --> 00:07:26.319
So he did affirm that, hey, I'm gonna take some time, I need to, but I see this, yeah, which is really a beautiful thing.

00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:29.439
And I and I definitely think there should be that.

00:07:29.519 --> 00:07:36.639
You know, like in Acts, when they're making decisions and the apostles go, this seems good to us and the Holy Spirit, right?

00:07:36.800 --> 00:07:39.439
They've been praying, they've been fasting, and they go, Yeah.

00:07:39.680 --> 00:07:52.560
So I think there needs to be a witness with leadership, a witness with the Holy Spirit, a witness with your spouse, a witness with trusted friends, who can really look at you and go, nah, man, you're you're crazy.

00:07:52.720 --> 00:07:54.879
Or no, we yeah, we sense this as well.

00:07:55.120 --> 00:07:59.439
So, you know, I look back on that season now and I'm grateful for it.

00:07:59.519 --> 00:08:03.040
And I just tell young leaders, like, don't be in a hurry.

00:08:03.199 --> 00:08:06.240
Number, number two, invite wise counsel.

00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:06.800
Right.

00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:10.959
And and by the way, now I'm 42, a senior pastor.

00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:13.040
I'm still inviting wise counsel.

00:08:13.279 --> 00:08:19.439
I'm still calling you, I'm still calling Jensen, I'm still calling Jacob Aranza, I'm still calling Pastor Steve.

00:08:19.519 --> 00:08:20.399
I'm you know what I mean?

00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:23.040
Like, I'm still like, hey, can you help me through this?

00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:28.079
So I didn't, you know, I wasn't independent and isolated.

00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:30.800
I was connected, and now I am now.

00:08:31.040 --> 00:08:31.360
Right.

00:08:31.519 --> 00:08:34.639
And I would say on genuinely, I'm not over-exaggerating.

00:08:34.720 --> 00:08:36.320
I'm gonna talk about this a little bit tonight.

00:08:36.559 --> 00:08:42.320
I was talking to my best friend this week, um, and I said, Brian, I just want to thank you.

00:08:42.559 --> 00:08:48.240
I said, I truly believe I'm in it right now, in the game right now, because of you.

00:08:48.399 --> 00:08:57.120
Yeah, and my point is he so many times prayed for me, talked me off the ledge.

00:08:57.679 --> 00:09:11.360
Like, so don't, you know, if you're isolated as the youth guy, worship guy, evangelist guy, and you think it's you against the world, it's gonna destroy, you're gonna need people when you're senior pastoring.

00:09:11.519 --> 00:09:11.840
Right.

00:09:12.080 --> 00:09:14.159
More, even more, yeah, even more.

00:09:14.320 --> 00:09:14.799
Yeah.

00:09:15.120 --> 00:09:17.279
So I think I learned that lesson.

00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:20.159
Um, it's one of the things I I think I did well.

00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:20.879
Yeah.

00:09:21.200 --> 00:09:24.399
And invited Jensen into it super early.

00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:30.240
And uh and have still invited him into our life and decision making.

00:09:30.559 --> 00:09:31.120
It's beautiful.

00:09:31.200 --> 00:09:31.360
Yeah.

00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:33.840
So you first start with, oh, I'm gonna pray this away.

00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:39.759
And and and I think what what part of that is also that you're being fruitful where you're planted, right?

00:09:40.080 --> 00:09:51.840
It typically, I'm not always saying, but it typically isn't God, as I say, you're running from something instead of running to something.

00:09:51.919 --> 00:09:55.840
It's kind of like if I could get a different surroundings, this would be something better.

00:09:56.320 --> 00:09:59.440
I mean, this isn't for you, you're you're flourishing.

00:09:59.519 --> 00:10:04.240
I mean, you're actually probably getting more opportunities in terms of traveling and exposure.

00:10:04.320 --> 00:10:06.000
And and Jensen had blessed that.

00:10:06.159 --> 00:10:09.039
So God's using you in terms of communicating.

00:10:10.159 --> 00:10:12.559
Then you're submitting it, right?

00:10:12.960 --> 00:10:16.960
And then you're also like open-handed with the timing, right?

00:10:17.120 --> 00:10:21.519
So just because we we see where we're going, you're you're open-handed there.

00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:27.039
And then, of course, then God sends you into that assignment.

00:10:27.360 --> 00:10:35.200
What has been the biggest learning lesson that you've had stepping into seven years?

00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:38.240
New assignment, new role, new weight?

00:10:38.960 --> 00:10:46.320
Well, I would say that the first the first two years of the church, 2018 to 2020, we went from zero to a thousand.

00:10:47.440 --> 00:10:57.679
And I I believed wrongly that I could just preach and pray, and I didn't have to be a leader.

00:10:59.200 --> 00:11:08.240
And you can which we haven't prayed a lot together, but you you, you know, if anyone could just preach their way out of it, you've got that gift drive.

00:11:08.639 --> 00:11:10.240
You know, I think I assume you're probably a pretty good prayer.

00:11:10.639 --> 00:11:11.840
But I thought I'm gonna just gonna pray.

00:11:11.919 --> 00:11:14.080
I'm gonna be a I'm gonna be on the mountain.

00:11:14.960 --> 00:11:18.240
And COVID taught me, no, you actually have to be a leader.

00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:18.960
Yeah.

00:11:19.279 --> 00:11:23.679
And so I think that was the shift in 2020 that I had to go.

00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:35.120
My my who I am at the core is prophetic prayer, grew up in revival, charismatic chaos.

00:11:35.759 --> 00:11:43.519
You know, just the and it was really in 2020 I went, okay, someone, oh, someone has to be the leader of this thing if we're gonna get through this.

00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:44.159
Right.

00:11:44.559 --> 00:11:51.919
And I had to kind of shift to being a leader, and I would say, I wish I would have done that two years earlier than that.

00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:53.600
I think we would even be further ahead.

00:11:53.840 --> 00:11:56.559
So becoming a leader.

00:11:56.799 --> 00:12:06.559
Um, and the way that I have kind of defined it in my own head for me, and it helps our team, is that a leader has a conviction that what they're doing is important.

00:12:06.720 --> 00:12:08.559
And I think that's so key for leaders.

00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:15.440
Like what I'm doing is important in the earth for the people, for my family, for my business, for my church.

00:12:16.240 --> 00:12:20.879
Um, I am doing an important work, I'm on this wall, Nehemiah said, and I ain't coming down for you.

00:12:21.120 --> 00:12:28.320
Yeah, so you have to have that conviction, and whether it's the small tasks, the meetings, the whatever.

00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:34.080
But then it's the skill to invite people into that important work.

00:12:34.320 --> 00:12:35.360
So that's the second part.

00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:39.039
So it's it's conviction, it's heart, but then it's skill, it's head.

00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:47.919
So I had to learn then the skill of becoming a vision caster, bringing people along, yeah, inviting people on the journey.

00:12:48.240 --> 00:12:54.799
And that was really I I had to become that starting in 2020.

00:12:54.960 --> 00:12:55.120
Yeah.

00:12:55.360 --> 00:12:57.519
And so, and it even changed how I preached.

00:12:57.679 --> 00:13:00.559
And people will tell me that now, like, man, I mean this in the best way.

00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:02.639
You're you're a different preacher now.

00:13:02.960 --> 00:13:09.120
And I think because I just had to I had to learn how to talk different, walk different, think different, bring the team different.

00:13:09.440 --> 00:13:18.960
And so, but it was it was crisis through COVID that made me go, okay, I guess, I guess I'm it.

00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:20.559
And I guess I have to leave.

00:13:21.039 --> 00:13:42.799
It's probably not, I mean, it's probably not a a common transition in terms of like, because generally if you're a good crowd, good preacher, like you, you, you, you may not ever end up in a scenario where you would would would maybe have the revelation to do it or the crisis or the pressure or the pain enough to do it.

00:13:42.879 --> 00:13:43.039
Yeah.

00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:47.600
I will say being a local church pastor will push that.

00:13:47.759 --> 00:13:52.399
Because I mean, that's all I've ever I've I spoke at my first conference when I was in my late 40s.

00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:56.799
So like all I've ever done is, you know, be a pastor, build people, that kind of thing.

00:13:56.960 --> 00:14:00.879
So the the the podcast and some of this is new for me, right?

00:14:01.120 --> 00:14:02.799
So it's it's kind of a new thing.

00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:11.039
Well, and and I think too, there's really great advice from when when you're way down the road of like, you know, do what only you can do.

00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:13.200
And I think all that's great.

00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:17.440
Eventually, you're probably entering into that season.

00:14:17.600 --> 00:14:18.240
I'm not there yet.

00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:20.960
I'm not in the season of do what only I can do.

00:14:21.039 --> 00:14:21.840
I gotta do everything.

00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:24.799
I'm still, you know, we're seven years old, I'm 42.

00:14:25.120 --> 00:14:25.519
Yeah.

00:14:25.759 --> 00:14:32.080
I'm we're still in kids and in youth and in worship and in social media posts, and like we're still in all of it.

00:14:32.240 --> 00:14:32.480
Yeah.

00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:37.679
And so and and I think I earlier had embraced like, hey, I'm just gonna do it, I can do it.

00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:38.399
I'm just gonna preach.

00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:39.600
Only I can do that.

00:14:39.919 --> 00:14:48.080
And then you realize, like, no, you actually have to get your hands in it, yeah, at least for a a good season, you know.

00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:51.759
And so we kind of had to embrace that.

00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:59.440
And I I just think I and I think once you do and you realize that's important, and God gives you grace for that.

00:14:59.919 --> 00:15:00.960
What's been the hardest part?

00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:05.360
What's what's kind of like as you started making that transition, okay?

00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:15.679
So I mean, you what what's been the hardest leadership thing that you're like, I'm still trying to get a hold of this?

00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:25.679
I I think just in general, you have your and I would say this is true for everybody in their own way, but you have your personality and you have your strengths.

00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:26.240
Right.

00:15:27.919 --> 00:15:33.679
But there is gonna be a requirement to do things out of your personality, out of your strengths.

00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:41.039
And if you're like if you're a psycho like me, which uh what I mean by that is I'm an artist, I'm a worshiper.

00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:45.840
I was the you know, before we planted the church, I was going to bed at 4 a.m., waking up at 1 p.m.

00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:49.600
I was, you know what I mean, like a totally different way of living.

00:15:49.840 --> 00:15:50.159
Right.

00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:54.399
I I had to embrace a different way.

00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:59.039
And then, you know, you plant your church and you say things like, and I still to this day go, hey, we're not for everybody.

00:15:59.200 --> 00:15:59.840
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:04.399
You know, there's plenty of great churches in town, you know, until people leave your church, right?

00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:15.440
Because they didn't like how you responded to that tragedy, or they didn't like how you posted about that, or they didn't like and you're, you know, so all the things you you say that you know are true.

00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:20.159
And and when you're emotional, yeah, that hurts a lot more.

00:16:20.320 --> 00:16:20.480
Right.

00:16:20.639 --> 00:16:22.399
So you're really having to process.

00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:35.039
And I've been talking to our team a lot about this, and I think maybe this could help somebody you want to be aware of the sheep, listening, smell like the sheep, right?

00:16:35.440 --> 00:16:37.759
But you never want to make decisions out of fear.

00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:38.720
We're very true.

00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:40.879
And I think, and I don't know the balance yet.

00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:47.200
I think that's why I'm trying to be around you and great men of God, because well, we need more discipleship.

00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:48.320
Okay, okay.

00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:49.120
Yeah.

00:16:49.440 --> 00:16:53.679
You know, and they say that, and you go, Well, yeah, of course, you know, we need more Holy Spirit.

00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:54.960
We need more right, right.

00:16:55.039 --> 00:16:55.919
No, no, no, no, no.

00:16:56.080 --> 00:16:56.960
Yeah, you gotta, yeah.

00:16:57.279 --> 00:17:01.440
You want to Well, the challenge is we are sheep, right?

00:17:01.600 --> 00:17:03.120
And we need a great shepherd.

00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:05.359
Yeah, but we are also shepherds of the sheep.

00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:07.519
So I think you're exactly right.

00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:22.640
I mean, a good shepherd, actually, um, I've I've talked about this in my book, When with People, um, when it when it talks about know the state of your flocks, it it's it's like it it really technically in the Hebrew means look into their face.

00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:23.119
Wow.

00:17:23.279 --> 00:17:34.640
So actually, a good shepherd isn't necessarily responding to what the sheep is saying, so to speak, but they are able to read the indicators.

00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:41.359
So I would think, you know, um okay, I want to ask you about this before I forget.

00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:45.359
Because you're talking about pain points right now, pain points.

00:17:45.759 --> 00:17:50.480
So we went, we basically went from 3,000 to 5,000 overnight with the building.

00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:51.039
Right.

00:17:52.319 --> 00:18:01.279
I think people, because we were portable, had expectations of what church was gonna be like in the building.

00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:11.119
So the Pentecostals thought we're gonna have more Holy Ghost services and the and the discipleship people thought we're gonna have more classes, and everybody had an idea.

00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:11.839
Right.

00:18:12.079 --> 00:18:21.839
And and kind of had a grace for us based off of well, we don't love this now, but they're gonna get in that building and they're gonna fix fill in the blank.

00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:22.480
Right.

00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:27.599
Well, we get in the building and we don't fix fill in the blank because we actually like the church that we built portably.

00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:36.079
So I feel like we're actually in a season of I don't know if disappointment's the right word.

00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:36.400
Yeah.

00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:49.119
I don't know if you can talk to us who've maybe gone through this, but like the unmet expectation of we at we we thought church was gonna be this in this season, and it's not.

00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:51.839
I feel like I'm facing that a lot right now.

00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:54.480
And that's what I mean by like not making decisions out of fear.

00:18:54.799 --> 00:19:00.720
Well, to you know, we're here to, and I I spoke about um my message was fast don't last today, right?

00:19:01.119 --> 00:19:01.519
Yeah, it's amazing.

00:19:01.759 --> 00:19:03.119
And I qualified it, right?

00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:13.839
That God does suddenly, for instance, very few people will ever lead something that we went from 3,000 to 5,000, and it's a move of God.

00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:17.920
And I know in that y'all are gonna baptize people, people are getting saved, babies.

00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:26.400
You know, there's certain people want to disdain that, but we know in the book of Acts, man, that there was these these moments, you know, 5,000 added, blah, blah, blah.

00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:26.960
Okay.

00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:35.359
But what I do think, and this would be, I think you have really one of two choices.

00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:43.440
Respond to the expectation, or even ignore the expectation, or act like the expectation doesn't exist.

00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:50.160
Or my my recommendation, the only winning strategy and the responsibility you have is clarity of vision.

00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:55.839
What I actually think is it's not a response to a response to what they thought or they said.

00:19:56.240 --> 00:19:57.839
It's not about what we're against.

00:19:58.000 --> 00:20:00.000
It's not about defending what we are.

00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:07.599
It is about at every level of growth requires a greater level of clarity of vision.

00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:08.160
Well, yeah.

00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:12.880
So what's what's really happening is not an unmet expectation.

00:20:13.119 --> 00:20:24.480
It's you and your friends were around the table, and it was like, here's who we are, and here's what we're about, and this is what we're doing, and this is what so what it's done for me at every level is a greater demand.

00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:27.279
You say tomato, I say tomato.

00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:36.559
Well, get, I mean, my my I believe that's probably one of my most challenging things amidst the noise of culture.

00:20:36.799 --> 00:20:41.039
So, what I would say to you is in those moments, I call them galvanized moments.

00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:56.400
I've gone back and done a seven-week series on here's who we are, here's who we're not, here's, you know, um, you know, and and I do also think your assimilation process, you end up getting, I think you start off, hey man, you know, come on.

00:20:57.519 --> 00:21:05.359
And and slowly, more and more, you're like, hey, I I want to, I I say in our step one, hey, we're not itching our wagon, do you?

00:21:05.519 --> 00:21:05.920
Yeah, yeah.

00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:07.119
I say stuff like that.

00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:07.519
Yep.

00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:13.200
And I don't mean that mean, and I'm kind and I tell jokes and stuff, but I have to be very clear.

00:21:13.759 --> 00:21:41.279
And you know what the saddest part of when you allow someone to hitch their wagon to you that aren't, they're not ultimately committed to the vision of where you're going, is it actually takes up time and energy for people who will actually uh want to be with you, and these people really because it's gonna culminate eventually at a moment, which is sometimes in these crazy moments and tragic, you know, the soundbite moments and trag.

00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:47.680
What we really find out is church grew, and there's a collection of people who don't really know who we are.

00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:47.920
Right.

00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:49.519
We haven't really changed.

00:21:49.599 --> 00:21:53.039
Yeah, like we was like woke up one day and said, Well let's do this.

00:21:53.200 --> 00:21:53.599
Right.

00:21:53.839 --> 00:21:59.359
It's just it's just there was enough uh intensity around the moment.

00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:01.920
To put them in touch with.

00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:02.799
Right, right.

00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:04.880
Oh, so they're Yeah, yeah.

00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:07.039
Oh, so he's a Republican or oh, he's a whatever.

00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:07.920
Or he's a yeah, yeah.

00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:09.279
Yeah, he's a whatever, right?

00:22:09.359 --> 00:22:19.200
Or he's uh he's he's um he actually so so like when you announce we're building a building, why does that create a pressure moment?

00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:25.200
Well, there's people like, well man, they're serious about this race to loss thing, like like millions of dollars series.

00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:25.599
Right, right.

00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:31.440
And then there's people who go, Why did I thought they were just yep hypothetically you follow me?

00:22:31.680 --> 00:22:38.160
Well, yeah, like we're we're doing this big, beautiful uh kind of porch area, right?

00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:41.279
It's almost like what you have, but without the glass surrounding it.

00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:44.240
It's just gonna be like an outdoor because we have great weather.

00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:51.440
And uh, you know, so you get the cheers, and then you get the we should give that money to the poor.

00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:52.079
You know, right?

00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:53.680
You don't need a porch, right?

00:22:53.920 --> 00:22:55.440
We can give that to the poor, you know.

00:22:55.680 --> 00:22:55.920
Right.

00:22:56.160 --> 00:22:58.079
And it's like, yeah.

00:22:58.720 --> 00:23:01.680
And it and it reminds me, okay, I need to get back to the why.

00:23:01.759 --> 00:23:03.920
I need to get back to the why was that important?

00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:05.759
Why do we need connection points?

00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:08.640
Lobby's too small, got to get people connected.

00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:10.559
But it, yeah, so it is.

00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:20.079
So then that goes back to that goes back to because I mean we've had those comments before, but we're giving more money to missions and more outreach than we ever have before.

00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:26.880
But we spent, you know, a little bit more resource on some of that because we did want to have a relational church.

00:23:27.119 --> 00:23:34.240
I think the the the patio at a church that's like we just want you to come and exit.

00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:37.519
In fact, we hired a consultant and they're like, you got to get these people off campus.

00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:38.000
Wow.

00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:40.880
And it's like, well, we wanna we want them on campus.

00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:41.279
Wow.

00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:49.920
So we actually intentionally spent dollars to create to keep them longer, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:52.480
Problem of the parking lot, problem with getting them off.

00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:53.759
That that helps me.

00:23:53.920 --> 00:24:01.039
And it so it's been shocking because I went from again, kind of back to the challenge thing.

00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:04.400
I went from the pushback of building a building, right?

00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:06.480
Which was why do we need to spend all this money?

00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:10.160
Jabin's just out for money, Jabin, Jabin just wants our money.

00:24:10.400 --> 00:24:14.240
Jabin only celebrates the big gifts, you know, all the pushback that you get.

00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:15.599
And not and it's all all of that.

00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:16.480
It's like, what do we do?

00:24:16.559 --> 00:24:18.480
I thought we're helping people.

00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:25.039
Then you get in the building, and it's like, you know, it's not like it was, and I don't feel as connected.

00:24:25.279 --> 00:24:25.519
Right.

00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:26.480
It's really big now.

00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:27.519
I don't see him as much.

00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:29.359
And yeah, where's the discipleship?

00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:32.960
So it is interesting how in every season there's a new challenge.

00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:46.559
Maybe that my encouragement to leaders watching is like every level has new devils, has new problems, has new challenges, has new, and I know that, right?

00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:56.400
But it is wild to be in it because as the church gets bigger, in my in our case, those problems just get bigger, louder.

00:24:56.640 --> 00:24:56.960
Right.

00:24:57.200 --> 00:25:02.640
And it's like, all right, navigating that has been has been.

00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:07.759
I mean, I'll just I say it's theory, but I've sort of tested it.

00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:18.880
I think the the larger percentage of people though, you know, you're a man of integrity, character, you're leading, you're y'all I've I've I've watched and followed.

00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:23.599
Like you, you know, you you don't really wake up one day and be like, we're gonna be this.

00:25:23.680 --> 00:25:26.799
You know, it's it's pretty much kind of the same thing.

00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:36.319
Yeah, you're getting better, you're doing, but I think the majority of people um are coming based on God's place them there.

00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:38.799
Yeah, they're hearing that message.

00:25:39.279 --> 00:25:47.599
And I just think today it's it's actually a much smaller minority, but it's all kind of in how are we getting that information?

00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:48.799
What does that look like?

00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:56.960
You know, how do you you recently talked a little bit because I want to shift gears on that in fact as well, is how are we getting our inputs, right?

00:25:57.119 --> 00:26:00.559
So is this there's you know, 500 people emailed the church?

00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:04.720
Is it some friends connected to your wife and your family?

00:26:04.799 --> 00:26:08.079
So that made some proximity, so it makes it sound like there's more people.

00:26:08.240 --> 00:26:10.079
Was it literally they walked up to you in the foyer?

00:26:10.559 --> 00:26:10.720
Right.

00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:17.119
Because I I'm gonna say as our as you're as what you're stewarding grows, it becomes harder to go now, yeah.

00:26:17.279 --> 00:26:18.799
What what what is it?

00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:23.599
Yeah, I think we all ask that today with media, like like, is this real?

00:26:23.759 --> 00:26:24.400
Yeah, is it real?

00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:25.920
Yeah, is this real?

00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:32.640
I mean, what where how do I, you know, do you, you know, I know some pastors were like doing surveys, you know, in COVID, right?

00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:33.759
Yeah, yeah.

00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:35.039
You know, where are they?

00:26:35.279 --> 00:26:35.920
It's so funny.

00:26:36.079 --> 00:26:41.200
Our uh our worship director, she sent out this survey to all the worship team.

00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:41.680
Yeah.

00:26:41.839 --> 00:26:43.359
And she got all this feedback.

00:26:43.440 --> 00:26:44.880
She was just devastated.

00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:48.000
And I go, your first problem, why'd you send out a survey?

00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:49.359
What were you thinking?

00:26:49.599 --> 00:26:51.680
I was just trying to connect with the team.

00:26:51.759 --> 00:26:55.839
And I said, girl, no, you you know, so I I do agree.

00:26:55.920 --> 00:27:08.319
And that's what I kind of go back to like, no, we've got to make our steps by faith, not by fear, not responding to okay, someone said something about we need more classes, so we're gonna do more class, or you know, we're gonna do more, whatever.

00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:15.200
You have to know, like you got to go back to God, back to your gift, back to your grace.

00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:16.799
You were talking about this this morning.

00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:19.200
Your session this morning was so unbelievable.

00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:29.200
And I don't know where my camera is, but you got to come to the leaders' gathering in January because it's so it's like it's watching you in your grace zone.

00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:35.279
It's it's Michael Jordan, it's 1997, and we're in the United Center, and it's like that's your that's your space.

00:27:35.599 --> 00:27:43.519
So, like people leaders need to come and and watch you uh talk, but you were talking about that today, just like you know, the guy.

00:27:43.599 --> 00:27:45.119
Well, when are you gonna start teaching deeper?

00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:48.640
You know, when are we gonna do a line by line book study?

00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:52.720
You know, it's like, oh man, I was pretty happy with my sermon until I walked out in the lobby.

00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:57.200
So you do have to get back to that place of faith.

00:27:57.359 --> 00:27:58.400
What am I called to do?

00:27:58.640 --> 00:27:58.960
Yeah.

00:27:59.200 --> 00:28:02.559
I'm not the church down the street, I'm not that guy, I'm not that guy.

00:28:02.720 --> 00:28:02.799
Right.

00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:09.519
So what we're doing, uh, there's a there's a people within this city called to us, and right, we're reaching them.

00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:11.200
And so I love what you said.

00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:15.200
I mean, you have you have a conviction, you have a calling, you have a vision from God.

00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:17.680
And I think that that's the only difference.

00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:29.839
Um I you know, being a pastor for 30 years, and you in so many ways, you have probably more instincts, more intuition, such a grace, connectivity, all of that.

00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:38.400
There's so much about, and I want to talk about this for a minute because I'm I'm going somewhere with you did a podcast on social media, comparison.

00:28:38.720 --> 00:28:43.599
You know, we're talking about the nuance of the world we live in.

00:28:43.839 --> 00:29:12.480
Because used to when when you had this people you were leading, you know, they had to do a phone tree or you know, they had to have a meeting, and now so now now leaders, I don't think just pastors, I think school superintendents, teachers, business people are trying to go, how do I not stick my head in the sand and and and ignore, but how do I get real, how do I have a real uh in-touch sense of where people are really at, you know?

00:29:12.559 --> 00:29:22.400
And and so only difference in I think me at my phase is what really happens is you just become more comfortable and you know more who you are.

00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:29.440
And you're just like, well, this is now I will say you from 34 to 40, something does happen, I believe, when you cross 40.

00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:44.319
There's a there's kind of a settling in, and then like a 50, and I don't I'm not trying to put numerical ages, but I'm saying you you do really just kind of you're just like, I can't be something other than this.

00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:47.119
Now I'm gonna grow here and I'm gonna grow there.

00:29:47.359 --> 00:29:47.680
Yep.

00:29:47.839 --> 00:29:54.319
And I think I think today people are just hungry for someone that'll just come out and go, well, this is this is who we are.

00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:54.559
Right.

00:29:54.799 --> 00:30:08.319
You know, like because they they they have so much ability to engage in different they're the they're more people are more educated at some level of the different viewpoints, yeah, yeah.

00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:12.720
And exposed, and your church is, and they they come to you and go, hey, I was listening to this guy.

00:30:13.119 --> 00:30:35.440
Yeah, you've got to I think that a lot of what helped me, especially over the last few years, is like finding a tribe, getting around a group of people on some level, which whether it's you know making it a point to come out here, go to you know, Louisiana in January or you know, on and on and on.

00:30:35.680 --> 00:30:40.240
But getting around like-minded people, I think is so huge.

00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:49.039
I think it's finding, if you're a preacher, finding a few preachers that really make uh your your your baby leap, right?

00:30:49.279 --> 00:31:01.039
That John Jesus moment, where it's like, so I'm not listening to 30 different preachers, but there's a few guys I listened to that man, they they kind of help me and it, you know, it kind of wakes something up in me.

00:31:01.839 --> 00:31:04.160
I think that has been huge.

00:31:04.319 --> 00:31:15.759
And then I think that the the comparison thing, if you've got great friends and you're in a great tribe, it's gonna be a lot harder to be insecure.

00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:16.319
True.

00:31:16.559 --> 00:31:20.079
When you're isolated, you're all by yourself, it's just you and your Instagram.

00:31:20.160 --> 00:31:20.400
Right.

00:31:20.559 --> 00:31:21.920
You're you're cooked, you're done.

00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:22.480
It's true.

00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:23.599
You're you're you're done.

00:31:23.759 --> 00:31:24.160
It's true.

00:31:24.319 --> 00:31:29.599
But if you've got a great crew, you you know, you can look at a guy and go, oh, that's great for him.

00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:30.559
That is not what we're doing.

00:31:30.640 --> 00:31:36.000
Or man, that guy's awesome, but yeah, you know, or man, he's a great friend, but I'd probably never have him preach for me.

00:31:36.079 --> 00:31:36.720
But I love him.

00:31:36.799 --> 00:31:37.039
Yeah.

00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:38.880
Because that's not what we're doing.

00:31:39.119 --> 00:31:39.440
Right.

00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:42.960
So I I think I had to kind of settle into all that.

00:31:43.119 --> 00:31:56.160
And again, I'm I am talking from a place I think now people like people don't even realize I sing or was a worship leader, and people kind of look at me as like a leader or a Bible teacher.

00:31:56.319 --> 00:31:56.799
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:31:57.039 --> 00:32:03.680
You gotta real, like, I'm just a Pentecostal preacher artist.

00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:09.839
I've had to, I've had to grow out of a lot of that to emotionally handle.

00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:10.319
Right.

00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:13.759
And I don't feel like I'm being not true to who I am, right?

00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:20.400
But I just had to grow out of some of that to kind of settle into something that's sustainable.

00:32:20.799 --> 00:32:21.759
God gives you grace for it.

00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:23.440
My son said something to me last week.

00:32:23.599 --> 00:32:26.720
He said, You're the most rhythm-oriented person I know.

00:32:27.039 --> 00:32:38.079
Now I'm not an artist, but I might I'm I would probably be a little more spontaneous than people might look at me and think, okay, his responsibilities and stuff.

00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:52.400
But what what happened was is the stewardship of a family and a church and and and the and the call built, I be I just began to build over time, you know, rhythms and and things.

00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:59.440
And I just I just stay true to those because I wanna I want to steward to the best of my ability what God's put in front of me.

00:32:59.599 --> 00:33:02.079
It wouldn't be my natural nature though.

00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:02.480
Wow.

00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:06.880
I probably wouldn't go to bed at four with you, but I probably wouldn't go to bed at 10.

00:33:06.960 --> 00:33:08.720
I'd be like, what's what's up what's up?

00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:10.079
Yeah, hang out.

00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:15.039
I wouldn't, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna probably be a little more spontaneous.

00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:17.200
I'm not as I wouldn't be as systematic.

00:33:17.359 --> 00:33:27.279
I built so many organizational systematic rhythms to be good to my team, to be good for my wife, to be good for my family that wouldn't come natural to me.

00:33:27.519 --> 00:33:33.200
So when you say rhythm, are you talking about decisions that make life more sustainable?

00:33:33.440 --> 00:33:38.240
Is that how you would so I think rhythm and balance, I talk a lot about rhythm and balance.

00:33:38.319 --> 00:33:46.400
So, you know, when you you know you talk about balance, you hear a lot of people falsely, you know, the Bible talks about a false balance as an abomination.

00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:48.799
I used to preach that because I like I like balance.

00:33:48.880 --> 00:33:52.480
I think good theology is kind of I I'm one of these people who can see the extremes.

00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:52.799
Yeah, yeah.

00:33:52.960 --> 00:33:53.519
You know what I mean?

00:33:53.759 --> 00:33:56.319
Today, though, the way you really get a following is be extreme.

00:33:56.640 --> 00:33:57.359
Be extreme, that's right.

00:33:57.519 --> 00:34:03.279
Okay, but but the Bible actually isn't talking about balance, talking about unjust weights.

00:34:03.359 --> 00:34:05.279
It's actually talking about cheating people.

00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:08.639
But when you look at the Bible to everything, there's a season.

00:34:08.719 --> 00:34:10.159
So there's there's a rhythm.

00:34:10.400 --> 00:34:15.440
A balance is trying to achieve something that that you could only temporarily succeed at.

00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:17.599
Like you can only stay on your foot for so long.

00:34:17.679 --> 00:34:20.800
Well, rhythm is cooperating with the season.

00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:22.079
So what do I mean?

00:34:22.239 --> 00:34:28.320
Like if you're getting a master's degree, there may be a difference in how you're living to fit that season of time.

00:34:28.400 --> 00:34:36.559
Yeah, but if your life continues to go on in that rhythm, and then if you're having a baby or if you're starting a church, but but yeah, I've I I see things.

00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:41.440
Um one of my number one questions is what's your calendar or what's your week?

00:34:42.079 --> 00:34:46.000
And I think I see things through a day, I think I see things through a week.

00:34:46.159 --> 00:34:54.800
I think some people get better at their week, but not a lot of people are good at their quarter, or not a lot of good people are good at their six months.

00:34:54.960 --> 00:35:03.679
So there's one part of it that's weekly, but there's also a part of it that's creating some rhythms that are a part of.

00:35:03.840 --> 00:35:26.000
And so, yes, I think the coaching I've had, the mentors I've had, the pain I've had, the demand of being who God's called me to be cause me, like what you're saying, you're saying probably wouldn't be my personality, but the call drew me to it.

00:35:26.079 --> 00:35:29.920
And what you really find is once you settle into it, you're like, I actually actually really do.

00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:30.719
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:31.679
No, it's actually great.

00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:34.719
It's actually more sustainable to do it that way.

00:35:34.880 --> 00:35:35.119
Yeah.

00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:35.840
No, for sure.

00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:42.079
And I mean, I even had to do that with, you know, uh guys will talk to me about like, man, how do you preach for 30 minutes?

00:35:42.159 --> 00:35:44.239
Well, it's like, well, because I got to do it five times.

00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:44.960
Right.

00:35:45.360 --> 00:35:51.360
So I don't have the luxury of going 48 minutes at this service and preach 130 tonight.

00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:51.920
Just let's go.

00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:53.039
Okay, yes, yes, Lord.

00:35:53.119 --> 00:35:53.840
But you know what I mean?

00:35:54.000 --> 00:35:56.400
Because in the weekly grind, I totally got it.

00:35:56.480 --> 00:35:56.639
Yeah.

00:35:57.039 --> 00:35:58.960
And I got to come back next week and do this again.

00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:01.760
And so I'm only gonna give you 30 minutes of context.

00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:03.039
I need another sermon.

00:36:03.280 --> 00:36:07.760
So I think it's finding all of that that is such a huge thing.

00:36:08.159 --> 00:36:19.519
Because because you are, I mean, I I realize you're in your early 40s, but because you spent so much time in your 30s as what I I think of it kind of like as a bridge leader, right?

00:36:19.760 --> 00:36:25.119
Because now you're you're hitting this phase and you're building a team and then you're you're you're dad.

00:36:26.239 --> 00:36:45.920
But I think I do think people listening to this podcast, I'm gonna bring up this is kind of the last track I want us to go on, and I want you just to unpack it because I was touching on it a little bit with social media and communication, but I think a lot of leaders out there are asking the question about the next generation, right?

00:36:46.159 --> 00:36:48.480
So there's all these generational questions.

00:36:48.559 --> 00:37:05.280
And of course, you hear the people that are just negative, you know, like they don't want to work and you know, it's like I get a little bit like because I love I love all these young people we're training up and that we like to sort of broad brush, a generalization about everyone in an entire generation.

00:37:05.519 --> 00:37:05.840
Yeah, yeah.

00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:13.199
But what do you think are some of the things that you're I mean, I'm sure you have a lot of younger leaders on your staff.

00:37:13.360 --> 00:37:19.920
Like, what are some of the uniquenesses with social media, technology, AI now?

00:37:20.079 --> 00:37:31.199
What I mean, all the the stuff's stuff that they're they're dealing with what what what are some things as leaders that we could do better to work with younger people?

00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:31.679
Yeah.

00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:34.480
I think, I mean, I think relationship is huge.

00:37:34.639 --> 00:37:45.199
And so figuring out what your relationship is gonna be to your team and your staff and to your, you're gonna have to, I think you do have to figure that out.

00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:50.079
Create again, kind of back to rhythm, and it's gotta be healthy for you, you gotta be able to sustain it.

00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:58.239
Um but they they need they need the same thing we needed when we were 20.

00:37:58.400 --> 00:37:58.719
Right.

00:37:58.880 --> 00:38:03.519
Now, they're a little different in that when I was 20, it's like that's the man of God.

00:38:03.760 --> 00:38:07.360
And if you do something wrong, you're out of cover and God's gonna kill you, right?

00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:08.800
So that's Elijah.

00:38:08.960 --> 00:38:10.480
So they don't have that, right?

00:38:10.639 --> 00:38:15.360
They don't have that honor thing that at least in in Pentecost growing up, I had.

00:38:16.239 --> 00:38:21.440
But they they do love you, they do want relationship, they do want to be around.

00:38:21.599 --> 00:38:24.559
So I think you have to kind of decide what that's gonna look like.

00:38:24.719 --> 00:38:27.519
I even felt that this morning listening to you guys.

00:38:27.599 --> 00:38:36.000
I just thought I need to embrace even more at 42, being the spiritual father of my church and of my staff.

00:38:36.400 --> 00:38:46.480
And I've got to get out of just team leader, and I've got to get more family just in my approach.

00:38:46.639 --> 00:38:47.119
Yeah.

00:38:47.360 --> 00:38:49.360
Um I think they need that.

00:38:49.519 --> 00:38:55.039
And then I I think the other thing is just they're they're 20, so they're gonna act 20.

00:38:55.599 --> 00:39:00.800
They're 25, they're gonna act 25 the same way we did.

00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:05.360
And I thank God when I was 25, I didn't have Instagram yet and TikTok yet.

00:39:05.440 --> 00:39:06.960
And oh my gosh, I know.

00:39:07.199 --> 00:39:10.239
I think I'd I don't I'd be in jail or I don't know where I'd be.

00:39:10.800 --> 00:39:15.920
So thank God I didn't have I was stupid, but at least it wasn't public.

00:39:16.159 --> 00:39:16.480
Right.

00:39:16.800 --> 00:39:23.679
So you've got to also give grace for the fact that they are living their entire life on their phone, they're exposed.

00:39:25.119 --> 00:39:32.719
They are gonna say some dumb things, just like I would have if I would have had the platform to do it, but I just didn't have it yet.

00:39:33.039 --> 00:39:35.360
And so you're gonna have to walk them through that.

00:39:35.440 --> 00:39:43.039
You're gonna have to kind of walk them through the fact that they're living, they are living their private life publicly, right?

00:39:43.280 --> 00:39:44.480
We didn't do that, right?

00:39:44.639 --> 00:40:00.239
And we kind of even my generation, even a or my age, even a little different than yours, but like we're not living our life nearly as public as the 30-year-old and then the 20-year-old, right?

00:40:00.320 --> 00:40:01.039
You know what I mean?

00:40:01.519 --> 00:40:06.960
And so you've got to kind of give grace to that, and you've got to just be able to pastor them through that.

00:40:07.840 --> 00:40:19.360
And we've got all these, yeah, 22-year-olds on the team, 25-year-olds on the team, and they they are their age and they're amazing, but you just I think it's a lot of time, I think it's a lot of conversation.

00:40:19.519 --> 00:40:19.760
Right.

00:40:19.920 --> 00:40:22.000
It's a lot of, hey, there's here's how I think.

00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:22.719
Oh, yeah.

00:40:22.960 --> 00:40:24.400
Let me let me, you know.

00:40:24.800 --> 00:40:43.360
And uh so I think that's the that that's we underestimate you have to go back and communicate, you know, because you kind of get in this phase of I would say to a lot of team leaders, I know even for myself, the patience to over-communicate.

00:40:43.599 --> 00:40:54.960
You gotta go back and be willing to say it and say it again and I thought we already had this, but it's like that's I think you have to have that grace to do it if you're gonna raise young leaders.

00:40:55.199 --> 00:41:02.239
I think that's the most taxing thing for my wife and I, because we were such self-starters and we were such like grinders.

00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:05.679
It was it's been shocking to us.

00:41:05.840 --> 00:41:13.119
It's like, oh, and I don't I don't know if you've talked about this a lot or but they need a manager.

00:41:13.360 --> 00:41:13.679
Yeah.

00:41:13.840 --> 00:41:19.519
And I think, right, management was all that craze in the 70s and 80s, and then leadership took over.

00:41:19.760 --> 00:41:20.159
Yeah.

00:41:20.400 --> 00:41:22.320
And we stopped talking about management.

00:41:22.880 --> 00:41:24.719
I don't know where the balance is.

00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:31.119
But I'm actually even settling into okay, there's actually a lot of people on my team, they're not leaders.

00:41:31.360 --> 00:41:32.159
That's okay.

00:41:32.400 --> 00:41:33.119
That's okay.

00:41:33.360 --> 00:41:34.960
They need to be managed, they're doers.

00:41:36.239 --> 00:41:38.880
They're workers, they love God, they love people.

00:41:39.039 --> 00:41:43.280
They're maybe even they're pastors, yeah, but they're not leaders.

00:41:43.440 --> 00:41:43.840
Yeah.

00:41:44.079 --> 00:41:56.880
And uh Stephen Furtick told me that one time, I mean a name drop, but he told me he said, I was telling him, I'm working so hard every Tuesday to bring this leadership talk to my staff, and I'm drained.

00:41:57.519 --> 00:41:59.840
He goes, Why are you talking to your staff like they're leaders?

00:42:00.159 --> 00:42:04.239
And what he was saying is, he was like, You have leaders on your staff.

00:42:04.400 --> 00:42:04.719
Right.

00:42:04.880 --> 00:42:27.360
But you're trying to bring this leadership gold to doers and to people who need to be managed, and people who love Jesus and love you, but they're not so he so he's like, we we manage some, we inspire some, we lead some, some become leaders, some become some are just great pastors who I think you just have to kind of embrace that whole system.

00:42:27.519 --> 00:42:31.360
So having the right system, the right conversation in the right environment with the right guys, yeah.

00:42:31.599 --> 00:42:33.119
And the right people that makes sense.

00:42:33.440 --> 00:42:36.239
And that's been a I think good for me.

00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:36.559
Yeah.

00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:39.840
Like I've I figure out there's some people on our team, I'm like, man, you're a great pastor.

00:42:39.920 --> 00:42:40.079
Yeah.

00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:42.800
You love people, you want to go to the hospital, you're on the phone.

00:42:43.039 --> 00:42:43.840
You need those people.

00:42:44.159 --> 00:42:45.920
You are a terrible leader.

00:42:46.159 --> 00:42:49.679
You can't like, and that's okay.

00:42:50.079 --> 00:42:53.440
And then it's like, man, that guy's got the gift of leadership on his life.

00:42:53.599 --> 00:42:55.360
We've got to work with him.

00:42:55.760 --> 00:43:01.920
And he's a little brash and he's a little cocky and he's a little, you know, but we've got to work with him because that's he's got a leadership thing.

00:43:02.079 --> 00:43:02.480
Yeah.

00:43:02.719 --> 00:43:04.800
And then this person's a great manager.

00:43:04.960 --> 00:43:07.840
They love to just look at the entire system and execute.

00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:11.440
Doesn't necessarily mean they're a great leader.

00:43:11.679 --> 00:43:12.079
Yeah.

00:43:12.880 --> 00:43:16.159
So I've been there, there's been a lot of that lately.

00:43:16.320 --> 00:43:27.280
And then, and then through all of that, communicate why, why, why, why, why, why, just the why over and over and over again, which I have found is really taxing for me, but it's just so important.

00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:28.000
You just got to do it.

00:43:28.079 --> 00:43:28.880
It's just part of being.

00:43:29.840 --> 00:43:37.039
Well, man, what what would you I mean, I know this is because you have your own podcast, you do podcasts, but I don't know.

00:43:37.119 --> 00:43:57.039
Sometimes I always just love to like what's on your heart or what what what what's a thought or something, you know, that just you think would be would encourage a leader out there or give them like if you kind of had a, you know, what's the uh you know, in a message, you know, we didn't even talk about preaching, but you're an amazing preacher.

00:43:57.199 --> 00:43:59.360
But it's like it's really interesting.

00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:03.360
Sometimes part of the message comes and that you don't have the other part.

00:44:03.519 --> 00:44:06.079
Like you it's like, okay, I got I got I got this passage.

00:44:06.159 --> 00:44:13.440
I and I got this and then so and I find sometimes it's like I need the inspiration.

00:44:13.599 --> 00:44:18.239
I need the the thing that's gonna really that you walk away or catch with.

00:44:18.480 --> 00:44:22.800
What what what would you say to just the lead to win?

00:44:23.039 --> 00:44:33.760
Um you know um I I feel I feel a responsibility just to give away what the deposit I have, right?

00:44:34.239 --> 00:44:45.440
Um what would you what what what what would you uh say is something that you'd be inspired to share with them or to give away or something we're giving away at lead to win.

00:44:45.519 --> 00:44:46.880
I don't know, you've been here for a day.

00:44:47.039 --> 00:44:49.119
What do you feel like we should give away more?

00:44:49.199 --> 00:44:51.280
That's another thought, just you know.

00:44:51.840 --> 00:44:56.880
Well that's that yeah, that's a that's a whole other thing.

00:44:57.039 --> 00:45:12.880
I would say uh uh a hundred percent people should especially if you're a pastor, you you should come to the event in January get around you, get around the grace that's on you.

00:45:13.280 --> 00:45:25.679
Because I think some of it a lot of it can be communicated through books and podcasts, and that's why we do it and do resource and I do it, and but there's some about being in the room, and I'll I'll even say this about you.

00:45:25.840 --> 00:45:32.239
I remember going, uh Steven Verdi, who uh used to do a thing called inside elevation.

00:45:32.960 --> 00:45:36.320
I remember going and going, oh, I get it.

00:45:37.039 --> 00:45:40.400
Now I get now I just saw you in your thing.

00:45:41.039 --> 00:45:43.519
Like he wasn't at Hillsong, he wasn't at whatever.

00:45:43.599 --> 00:45:46.960
He was in his ecosystem with his team.

00:45:47.360 --> 00:45:49.679
And I just remember going like, oh, I get you now.

00:45:49.840 --> 00:45:54.079
Oh, I know this is you, this is your genius.

00:45:54.880 --> 00:45:56.639
And it unlocks something in me.

00:45:56.880 --> 00:46:09.280
I feel like that about all great leaders when they invite you into their space, you get to see them in like a you just kind of go like, oh, oh yeah, this is okay.

00:46:09.760 --> 00:46:14.960
You're you're awesome, and I get to see you in the thing you've uh orchestrated.

00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:32.159
So I would say to people that they should come get around you because there's just part of it is like that grace impartation thing that just like you're like, oh, okay, no, I got I got something that's even beyond the letter or beyond the you know the podcast.

00:46:32.639 --> 00:46:40.719
I would say to leaders though, that um they they come to John in John 1 and they go, Who are you?

00:46:41.199 --> 00:46:42.000
Are you Elijah?

00:46:42.159 --> 00:46:42.719
Are you a prophet?

00:46:42.800 --> 00:46:43.440
Are you the Messiah?

00:46:43.519 --> 00:46:54.400
Are you and John starts with I'm not not I am, I'm not, I'm not the Messiah, I'm not Elijah, I'm not a prophet.

00:46:54.719 --> 00:46:56.400
He said, But I am a voice.

00:46:57.679 --> 00:47:07.199
So he was able to figure out who he was not, that's really good, and who he was, and he was able to just kind of live in that.

00:47:07.599 --> 00:47:22.559
And I think again, when you figure out who you are and who you're not, you can now invite the tribe, the family, the people, the city within the city that's called to you.

00:47:23.360 --> 00:47:33.360
I think even sometimes pastors end up building churches that work, but they're not even super happy in the thing because it's not even who they were.

00:47:33.519 --> 00:47:33.840
Yeah.

00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:46.239
So I would say my my strength, whatever is I'm I'm pretty secure and I'm I'm pretty sure I know who I'm pretty sure I know who I'm not.

00:47:46.480 --> 00:47:46.880
Right.

00:47:47.039 --> 00:47:47.280
Right.

00:47:47.679 --> 00:47:48.719
I'm not Steve Robinson.

00:47:48.800 --> 00:47:53.920
You know, I'm listening to him today going, Jesus, you are so smart, and I'm not, you know.

00:47:54.400 --> 00:47:59.920
I'm not Craig Rochelle, I'm not Jeff Little, I'm not, but I am, but I have a voice.

00:48:00.079 --> 00:48:00.239
Right.

00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:00.960
But I am a voice.

00:48:01.199 --> 00:48:01.519
100%.

00:48:02.079 --> 00:48:06.480
And I think when you you settle into that, it doesn't mean you don't grow, it doesn't mean you don't get sharper.

00:48:06.559 --> 00:48:06.800
100%.

00:48:07.119 --> 00:48:11.679
Doesn't mean you don't grow your capacity, but it does mean like, no, I I know what I do, right?

00:48:11.840 --> 00:48:15.440
I know who I am, I know what I'm not, I know who I'm not.

00:48:15.760 --> 00:48:26.960
And I would just say whether you're a real estate agent or a a barista or a stay-at-home mom or a pastor or a youth pastor, you need to do the work of discovering that.

00:48:28.079 --> 00:48:31.760
And then what happens is this this whole group of people find you.

00:48:31.920 --> 00:48:32.159
Right.

00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:37.599
So, you know, we've got thousands of people coming to church, and I walk into that lobby every week and I go, How'd you find us?

00:48:37.760 --> 00:48:37.920
Right.

00:48:38.719 --> 00:48:49.920
We saw a clip, or a friend invited us, or we we've been watching on YouTube, or a friend saw you at milestone in Keller, Texas, and told us we need to go to your church, whatever.

00:48:50.639 --> 00:48:58.079
And your people start to find you because you're in your thing, you're in your grace.

00:48:58.400 --> 00:48:58.880
I love that.

00:48:59.039 --> 00:49:03.360
And I just think preachers need to embrace that, leaders need to embrace that.

00:49:03.519 --> 00:49:04.000
Right.

00:49:04.559 --> 00:49:16.639
Because it's a real bummer when you're kind of succeeding publicly, but I don't and I don't even mean failing like in sin or but like you're just literally not happy.

00:49:16.800 --> 00:49:19.440
You're just you're not fulfilled.

00:49:19.679 --> 00:49:26.960
And I can say right now, I love my life, I love my family, I love my church, because I feel like I'm being true.

00:49:27.280 --> 00:49:29.760
That's good to who I am and who I'm not.

00:49:29.840 --> 00:49:31.679
And I I think that's so good.

00:49:31.840 --> 00:49:33.599
It's incredibly freeing, too, right?

00:49:33.760 --> 00:49:34.320
I think so, yeah.

00:49:34.480 --> 00:49:38.719
I think it's so freeing just to be like, this is this is how God made me, this is who I am.

00:49:38.880 --> 00:49:40.639
I think that is so powerful.

00:49:40.960 --> 00:49:43.599
Thank you for being my friend.

00:49:43.760 --> 00:49:50.400
Thank you for for carrying the carrying the torch and and and and all of what God's doing.

00:49:50.480 --> 00:49:54.320
We celebrate that and uh excited about what God's going to do.

00:49:54.639 --> 00:50:22.480
I mean, we I think I think I think people out there, I I say this, that there's certain places where in the body of Christ we should we should rally around, you know, and and I think that you know, anytime in a Seattle or you and I've been a part of what Steve Robinson, who you mentioned is opening a campus in New Orleans or places I don't think, I mean, of Vegas, those there are these places where all of us should get excited.

00:50:22.559 --> 00:50:24.079
And so we're we're all cheering you.

00:50:24.159 --> 00:50:27.920
Yeah, we're praying for you, we're cheering you on, and and believing for great things.

00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:28.639
So thank God.

00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:36.000
I want to say thank you for checking out this episode of the Lead to Win podcast.

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I want you to know that I love and my team loves getting this kind of content into your life so it can help you lead and win at what matters most.

00:50:47.199 --> 00:51:00.559
So I'd love for you to do me a favor like, comment, especially subscribe if you would, so that we can make sure that we're able to get to you some of the things that are gonna help you lead to win.