Winning Requires Waiting: How to Trust God's Timing

0:01 Rich is according to scripture is not the car you drive or the house you live in. I believe pastors have this deposit to offer there. Now we can get intimidated. Why would they want to sit with me? Like you're one of the most valuable pieces that they could ever have in their life. Had to start figuring it out. What does some random dude in Idaho have to offer some guy that's playing in the Super Bowl? And I thought, I actually could be the one person in the world that is praying for their marriage, for their babies, for their career, for their investments, and for the desires in their heart by name. And I realized that's that's what pastors do. Yeah. That's what makes us unique. Yeah, I love to talk about the idea in our world today that everyone thinks all winning is the same, that if I hit the number or hit the goal goal or I make the purchase or close the deal, that that's holistic winning.

0:54 And I was watching you as we were in this context with leaders, you and I being in some same rooms and mutually respecting each other, but getting to spend a little more time together the last few days. Um I just began to hear some things. It's kind of like, you know, you you can hear a note, right? You know, musicians hear a note, communicators listen, and I could, I could hear some things coming out. And uh so I just thought it would be a blessing to those listening to listen to some of your journey. So I want to, I want to first of all tell us just a little bit about Ocean's Church and what God's done. It's pretty miraculous what you've seen happen in a in a in in just the last few years, really.

1:35 So well, thank you, Pastor Jeff. It's an honor to be on with you guys today. Big fans of uh both of you, and Milestone Church is, I think, uh maybe one of the prettiest church buildings in America. And I think you give even the most secure pastors a good dose of uh jealousy uh when we walk into your property. But uh just honor to be with you guys. Yeah, I'm I'm uh originally from California. I I got saved when I was 18 and uh married the pastor's daughter when I was uh got saved at a church in Boise, Idaho, of all places. Okay. And uh when that experience happened, spent 17 years of my life in Idaho and then kind of on a word from God and several layers of divine arm twisting from the Holy Spirit, uh, didn't want to go back to California and I thought California was gonna fall into the ocean.

2:23 And luckily, when God gave me a dream with the name of our church, he told us to call it Ocean's Church. Yeah. So I thought, Lord, if California is gonna fall into the ocean, let them fall into Ocean's Church. There you go. And so uh we started the church in 2018. Church is six years old. Okay. It has been a wild ride. I think I made the comment the other night that if you've seen the footage of people outrunning the avalanches on skis, that's kind of what the last six years has felt like. Um good problems, you know, a lot of problems that most guys don't have when they start churches, um, but still challenges nonetheless. Yeah. But God's been very kind to us, and I do think that maybe he's been a little bit nicer to us than usual because he knew that if we did not have good success, we were not slugging it out for 10 years, we would have packed up.

3:06 Right. I had a great house, great life in Boise, Idaho that we left to uh move to California. So we asked the Lord, God, if we're gonna be here, let us see some great impact. And uh it's been a it's been a really special last six years. So interesting, you had you had spiritual heritage in the family, yeah, but but then you had a lot of challenges. I mean, your your parents divorced when you were younger, so then you you kind of had that influence there, those seeds there, but you yourself not come into Christ till you were 18, right? So you you you had some spiritual heritage, but it was it was at 18 where you made that decision. Absolutely.

3:46 Yeah, my my grandma and grandpa were missionaries, yeah. So they went to Japan and China. My grandma was mentored by Amy Sub-McPherson, the forest prayer movement. Yeah. And my grandpa got got saved at a William Branham healing crusade. Wow, wow, Indiana, and uh saw a guy, or really a lady on a death deathbed stretcher, and he pointed at her and said, God, if you're real, send that little preacher over there to heal that lady. He said, about 70 seconds after he prayed that prayer, William Branham walked through the crowd at one of the soccer stadiums or baseball stadiums and pulled this lady that was on desk doorstep off a stretcher. And he went into the uh bathroom, threw his tobacco pipe away, his flask, found a church that Sunday, and about a month later, my grandma was going through that church on furlough.

4:29 Wow. And they met and got married. My dad was born in Japan and they were there, and so they joked that he was the best thing ever made in Japan. But my dad was kind of the you know rebellious missionary kid. I would say that my observation uh of the older generation is they thought they had to sacrifice their family for the ministry. So my dad grew up on a boarding school island. Oh, yeah, another island, right? And his sister did too. And I think that's why we had a lot of rebellion in that generation. Yeah. I think, you know, thankfully, our generation realizes that God sacrificed his family. Right. So we don't have to sacrifice ours. Right. Yeah, right. And so uh it's kind of skipped a generation, but I feel like, you know, I was the only one out of the grandkids to kind of pick up the ministry baton, got saved, and uh yeah, it's been a wild, it's been a wild ride for sure.

5:15 Wow. My wife says it's interesting, you know, obviously every kid has their own will. Yeah, there's not a formula, but most of the time people don't reject Jesus and the church because of the church house. Yes. It's usually because of their house. Yes, right. Right. 100%. And that that has a bigger impact than even like ministry life. I know we have a lot of people listening and care a lot about that. Yes. And I always just try to tell them that it's it's more about what happens in your home than it is what happens with maybe your assignment in ministry. I agree. I I think I see my in-laws, they raised three incredible kids. I married their middle daughter.

5:56 Yeah. Uh, they were my pastors when I got saved in Idaho, and I'm like, man, I'm gonna marry my boss's daughter. I will never get fired. Good job security. Great job security. So we uh we got married, but you know, all of her siblings, they all love Jesus, never walked away. I think my wife's, I don't know, her spiritual genealogy goes back to Gabriel or Michael, I think. If you go on ancestry.com, I think you can trace it back there. Um, and my family's the opposite. You could try you could trace this back to a fallen angel, probably. But um, no, just uh incredible in-laws. And I would say, you know, Ken and Connie Wilde, uh, pastor of phenomenal church, 43 years, just handed it over to their son. And uh all their kids love Jesus, all their grandkids love Jesus.

6:37 And I would say, out of all the churches I've traveled to in the world, my my in-laws are some of the most pure pastors of just not just the people in the church, but the way they raise their kids was just really uh really exceptional. Well, can we go for a minute, if it's okay, Pastor Jeff? Can we go out? You you're talking there about your call and your new resource when with people, you're trying to help young leaders identify a call. I know a lot of young leaders are, what does that look like? Does God just like walk into a room and tell you what to do? You talked about getting this call from God. Can you kind of walk us through what that process was like for you, how you stewarded that call, the timing? Because a lot of people think, well, when I get a call, I just leave everything and jump to it, almost like you were saying with your grandparents.

7:18 Talk a little bit about your journey and what that looked like for you. Man, uh, I think, you know, a couple things. I think God uses, He doesn't waste any of our experiences. That's the first thing I tell people is I think a lot of times we think if I'm gonna serve the call of God, he's gonna, if I surrender really, he's gonna make me do something ridiculous. Yeah. I'm gonna have to move somewhere I don't want to live, I'm gonna have to love some people I don't want to love, I'm gonna have to marry someone I'm attracted to, I'm gonna live in some mission field, I'm gonna hate my life. Yeah. And I think sometimes we have this false perception that God, for whatever reason, is gonna ask you to do something that you're not good at or ask you to do something that you're not you're not passionate for. Yeah. Right. I think that somewhere in our calling is the is the intersection of our passions, is of our trauma, of our past experiences, yeah, uh, and with our giftings.

8:02 And I think that the outside X factor of those things would be timing. Right. So for me, I I think my parents getting divorced at seven, I went to like 12 schools in like four years, learning how to make friends with anybody and everybody, which is a lost skill, really. My wife was the same way. They moved around and then she married a church planter. So it worked amazing. Because you you you're good at making friends with anybody. And you have to. And I went to like low-income, we were like in the projects of Los Angeles. Yeah. My mom didn't graduate high school, so we were inner city, rough area. We live in the suburbs of LA. So if you couldn't afford to live in Section 8 housing in LA, they relocated you to the high desert. So I'm from Palmdale, Lancaster, which is the Nazareth of California.

8:44 It's a home of Afro Man and Paul George. Yeah. Uh so I'm the third person to ever make it out of the Antelope Valley. But I uh, you know, I that was the trauma of my upbringing, saw a lot of crazy things, but developed people skills through that. Um, developed a love for connecting with people. And then when I got to high school, I ended up becoming, you know, uh, you know, got involved with as a prom king and got involved with snowboarding, got good at that. And when I got saved, I thought, so my encounter with Jesus was at a summer camp 2001. Had this encounter, and I hear the Lord say, I want you to move to Idaho, live with your dad, go to Bible college. Now, those I knew it was God because I would never think of anything that stupid.

9:26 Yeah. Didn't like Idaho, right? Didn't like my dad. And Bible college, I don't think I've ever met a cool Bible college graduate. So I thought, God, you got your kids mixed up. Yeah. Um I don't know what's going on, but but all I could say is that when you really have a God experience with Jesus Christ, his presence is so divine, so glorious, better than drugs, sex, any of the stuff that I ever did before, that I was willing to do whatever it took to maintain that experience. Yeah. So I said, Lord, if you promise that my whole family, named them all by names, if they all come to know you the way that I've come to know you, I'll do whatever you want me to do in life. Wow. And I heard, I didn't hear the audible voice, but I heard a very, very internal loud whisper that said, Mark, if you give me your best, I'll give you my best.

10:11 So I moved up. I thought I was gonna serve a year or two, like serve my time. Yeah. And then go back to California, become a pro snowboarder, travel the world. Right. And it was in that first year, we went to Portland, Oregon. We went to a big youth conference called Generation Unleashed. Crazy Aussie preacher named Russell Evans from Planet Shakers was preaching. I couldn't tell you what he preached on. Yeah, it could have been a message for senior citizens with hemorrhoids. I would have responded to that altar call. Heart was beaten out of my chest. Wow. And I knew that I was supposed to go forward, and I did. And when I got to that altar call, um, God brought me back to a memory when I was four years old, my grandma's my grandma's living room, and she was telling me missionary stories of doing laundry and rice patties in in Japan.

10:53 And um, when I was four years old, I heard her tell me stories, and I walked to her bathroom in front of her linen closet, and in front of that closet, I heard a voice when I was four years old say, Mark, will you be a missionary too? And honestly, I heard it and I just said yes as a four-year-old. And I forgot that memory until I was 19 years old in Portland, Oregon. Wow at that altar call. And he said, Mark, I asked you when you were four years old if you'd be my missionary. And you said yes then. Will you still be say yes now? And I just started weeping because I forgot this memory. Yeah. I knew it was God. And I said yes, and I saw the globe, almost like the globes you see on a teacher's desk. Yeah. And I was like, I'm getting my I'm getting my assignment. I mean, I'm gonna go somewhere international. I'm gonna be a missionary with my grandparents.

11:34 And he said, I'm gonna call you to the hardest people group of your generation. I'm gonna call you to North America to people that have everything that don't think they need me. And you're gonna reach, you're gonna reach people that aren't just down and out. You're gonna reach people that are up and out. And as you reach them, you'll reach the ends of the earth. And I was 19 years old, and and that was when I knew I was called to ministry. And so I got back, and my youth pastor Chris Wilde, who's now my brother-in-law, he uh took me under his wing. He's brilliant. He's like Pastor Steve, smartest guy I know. He's like 49 years old. We'll call him 55, if uh just in case this podcast he listens to it five years later. But uh he uh smartest guy I know and just mentored me, loved me, started sending me these campus clubs and started on junior high campuses and these little Bible studies that normally had 12 little girls started having 150 kids show up.

12:24 I would just share my testimony. I do a Fear Factor Joe Rogan game was kind of big back in that era. Yeah. And uh pretty soon, I mean, we're having 300 kids per lunch and meeting the gymnasiums. And he says, Mark, you have a gift to gather people and to you're an evangelist. Yeah. I'm like, let me look at what evangelist means. Yeah. I mean, I'm reading the lyrics to Chris Tomlin's songs at this point. I had no nothing about Jesus. Um, but I got thrown into it. And uh he took Vender's wing and eventually became you know youth pastor, taught Sunday school, became the chaplain at Boise State for their football team, kind of helped out with that. And we saw a revival. We saw like 10,000 college students uh get saved, you know, in a tenure window when I was in Boise State. And from that I had the opportunity to travel all over the world, go to youth conferences and speak.

13:07 Some of the great churches in the world. Been Australia 17 times and Malaysia and Singapore. And um that's the first time, really the first time we connected was around a group of churches, and you were speaking at our at our youth. I remember you coming in for that. Yeah. So we so you so you're in this, you're in this youth world. I mean, you're you're building a youth and you're working youth group there at your your church, and then you're working with college students and and you're traveling, now becoming a a bit of a a a voice to youth pastors and and and so then where did where did this you know the fulfillment of that will you be my missionary? Yeah. What what what happened with that?

13:48 How did you how did that all come about? Because you're you're doing great, you're you're you're fulfilled. You you weren't ambitious about something else. In fact, you could you could have stayed there the rest of your life, right? You're still planning on it. Yeah, yeah. I was absolutely, I loved Idaho, I was in Boise, Idaho. Yeah. We just built our building our dream house, had our little girls, had a great life. Idaho, if you didn't know, is a lot cheaper than California. Yeah. Um so we were really enjoying uh the old Northwest. But um we got married in 05, and when we got married, my wife, her parents were planters, and she said, Mark, there's two things we never want to do is we never want to be lead pastors and we never want to start a church. My parents did it, and it was you know admirable and great, but we don't want to do it.

14:29 It was hell. Yeah, I mean, I really grabbed a hold of that, right? Because I always said it this way. I was in a conference, church planting, campus ministry, world missions, you know, and I always said church planting on that banner and in that worship service looked a lot better on the banner than it did in my life. 100%. So it's just, you know, again, that doesn't stop us from doing what God's called us to do, but people do underestimate what's really involved. And so she grew up with that. Pastors' kids know more. They know, yeah. They know. I heard Bill Johnson say that pastors' kids have to pay two call two prices. Yeah, they pay for their mom and dad's calling, and then when they get older, they pay for their own calling.

15:09 Yeah. And uh, so she, you know, they paid the price to be in that world their whole life, live under the microscope. And so uh, she saw the best and the worst. And she loves Jesus, never got bitter towards a church, loves the church, but just said, Mark, we can serve, you know, high capacity, but we'll just serve mom and dad. And then when my brother takes over, we'll serve him. And I love her brother, was my mentor, and so we're happy to do that. And um, so that was the path we were on. So we agreed to that. And it was three years later, I was reading, ironically, Rick Warren's book, The Purpose-Driven Church, the story about how he started Saddleback Church, yeah, which ironically is like 20 miles from where our church is now. Yeah. So we uh I'm reading this book in 2008, and uh, I'm like starting to cry.

15:51 I'm not an emotional person, I'm like crying reading this book. I'm like, Rashad, we're gonna start a church. She's like, No, we're not. We've talked about that. What are you talking about? It's the stupidest thing you said. And I said, You gotta read this book. She's like, I've read it before. Like, read it again. So she starts to read it, and God really starts to dock on her heart too. And our church was healthy and vibrant. Um, I mean, no church is perfect, but I mean, I'd say our church is about as healthy as I've ever seen. But we weren't necessarily a church-sending church. We weren't an apostolic hub that we were floating people out. So we never really seen anybody leave that was like celebrated, it was good. Right. We saw people that were disgruntled, power hungry, bitter, whatever. Never saw someone leave on a healthy note. So the idea of even leaving was like, man, this is like sin.

16:34 Right. Yeah. So we said, Lord, we'll do it, but we're gonna make it really hard. And this would be my advice for people that feel called to start a church. I think sometimes we make it so easy to leave to do something catastrophically big. Right. When we should on a big thing that's gonna change your life, your kids' life, your family's life. I think we need to have some fleeces out there that that are validated and the multitude of counselors are safety. So for us, we said, Lord, we'll go anywhere in the world. But our one condition is my in-laws, our pastors, they have to initiate the conversation that you're called to be church planners. If they start that conversation, we'll go anywhere in the world. But if they don't start it, we're not, we're not leaving.

17:14 And we'll never tell them anything. Right. So we thought, man, this is this is smart, man. This is a smart prayer. I was bragging about how smart my prayer was. I'm like, man, they'll never we'll have some grandkids. Right. They're not gonna ask us to leave. There you go. That's smart. Use the grandkids. I thought we were safe. Yeah. And so uh they're at a conference, it's a year and a half goes by, and they're at a conference, and there's this prophetic lady there named Cindy Jacobs, and she'd been to our church a couple of times, actually prayed for me when I was in Bible college, called me out of a room of 1,100 people, and prayed things over me then that I'm still doing now. Wow. And um, so she uh she says, How many kids do you guys have again, Ken and Connie? And they said, We have three kids, and and they go, uh, your middle middle daughter, she married, yeah, he's she's she's married, this incredible guy, good-looking guy.

17:58 He works out a lot, he's buff, really good looking. I'm just kidding. Uh no, she they she says, Yeah, she's married, and she got up and left the table and she came back. She said, When I left the table, the Holy Spirit said that your son-in-law is not from Idaho, he's from somewhere else. And uh they said, Yeah, he's from Southern California. And she said, They're church planners. Wow. They're gonna move back to Southern California, they're gonna start a church that becomes a global movement. And my in-laws are like, That is the dumbest prophetic word we have probably ever heard. And uh no, they didn't say that. They came back, they were gracious, but they said we had to talk to you, we got home, we had a kind of strange thing happen. And we were in their kitchen. I could tell you where I was sitting in their kitchen on the countertop, and they started telling us this thing, and it was like a water bloom popped.

18:41 Wow. Started weeping. That was 2010. So um we knew that was what put we're gonna leave one day. God has a promised land for us. Um it's not now, but it's down the road. Almost probably felt like when you get married going, we're gonna have kids one day, but we ain't anywhere close to that yet. Right. We have things we want to do before we have kids. Yeah. And so we just waited on God's timing. I think timing's a big deal. And uh, I had a dream, a really vivid dream, two years later that actually I didn't know where we were gonna go. I didn't know the name of our church. And I had a vivid dream on this big wide, it was a three-part dream. I won't bore you with all the details, but the first part of the dream, I was on a giant beach sandbar.

19:21 There's a giant stage, line array speakers, huge LED wall. I'd say half the size of the milestone LED's wall, you know, just a giant wall, about the size of a Dallas Cowboy Stadium, uh about their wall. But just giant wall, and my my wife and I were on this massive stage, and there was maybe, I'm not trying to exaggerate, 100,000 people or maybe more on this beach, kind of like the mall in DC, lining the coast. And there was a pier behind us, and we were on the stage. And the weirdest part of the dream, Pastor Jeff, was the moment it started, I knew I was dreaming. Usually, when you're dreaming, you don't know you were dreaming until you wake up. Right. I knew as soon as the dream started, I was, I was dreaming. And I felt like the cameraman. And thousands were getting baptized, and thousands of people were getting healed, like the book of Acts, blind eyes opening up.

20:06 It was like revival. And I was on the stage and the kind of went over the huge crowd. And on the stage, I said, God told us to come from Idaho to California to start a church. He gave us a dream. And the weirdest part was, as soon as I said, on the stage, God gave us a dream. I leaned in like the cameraman, like, what was the dream? And I said, in the dream, God gave us the name of our church to call it Ocean's Church, out of Isaiah and out of Habakkuk. Wow. For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea or the oceans. And so I said, that was the first time I ever heard Ocean's Church was from myself in the dream. Wow. And the weirdest part was, if I'm being honest with you, when you start a church, you tell everyone your story.

20:48 I had told this story a jillion times, but it wasn't until we started Baptize California, which was two years ago. We baptized 4,100 people at Pirates Cove and we baptized 12,000 last year in Huntington Beach and in California. But it wasn't until we did the first year of it that I realized I don't think that that picture in the dream was an analogy for revival, which all those years I told the story, I thought it was an analogy for revival. Yeah. I actually think I saw a picture of the future. And now this, this just this week, I'm not sure when this recording will come out, but this week we'll be at um Huntington Beach. We're anticipating 40,000 to show up this week. We'll baptize over 10,000 in one day, one location. Be the largest baptism in American history.

21:30 But I think that even what I saw my dream is beyond what's going to happen this week. I think that we're going to keep building it every year, but I think the day will come that we'll actually position the stage. The pier will be behind us at Huntington Beach. I saw it. So when our uh our media guys they said we could do it at Huntington, they opened up their laptop two years ago. You saw the picture. And I said, I've seen that before. Wow. I saw that in 2012. Wow. When God gave us the name of our church. So amazing. I know, I get it. I've told my pastor friends these stories. They're like, Mark, these are crazy stories. We don't usually have that. We just thought, where's there no good churches and we start a church there? Right. I just think I had a hard head and I'm not that smart. And God had to give me a lot of confirmations to make me do what He's asked me to do.

22:12 I want to go back though, because, you know, a few people will plant a church, but there's a lot of people listening who maybe, you know, they're being asked to start a youth ministry or a small group or a business or whatever wherever they're at. But I think one of the things that I talk about a lot is vision is where you're going. It's that picture of a preferable future of where you're going. Strategy is how you get there. But this execution piece, right? Which I think, if I were to say one of the big things that holds people back from ultimately winning, you have to have that vision piece. Yep. You have to be, there has to ultimately be eight oceans.

22:55 It has to be in California, you know, we're going to have this atmosphere, we're going to have these baptize moments, where all the elements of it. But but the execution piece, a lot of people get tripped up at the execution. Yeah, for sure. And timing is such a big part of that. Yeah. And you said something which I actually just like grabbed a hold of, you know, like like talking about timing, because I've said I've said multiple times, when you get around great leaders, the combination of submission to God, working with counsel, submitting to others allows them to do you can you can have the right thing at the wrong time.

23:35 Sabotage everything. And you were just talking about that. So I've said if you were to talk about great leaders and leadership or whatever pastorship, I mean, timing is so big. Huge. Timing. And there's the timing of God, there's the Kairos moment, there's the Kranos timing. There's also allowing the process of God. Yep. You know, we tend to be a vent, right? God's very process and seasonal. 100%. And so I I think that was a huge part of your story because you you did stay there. Eight more years. Eight more years. Yes. Right? Yes. And and and that sounds a lot more like the Bible, right? I mean, God, He's on time, but He's never early. Right. Never. It's just kind of like, you know.

24:17 So I I I mean, I think that's something for someone out there. No one's telling you necessarily no. Yeah. But God might be saying not now. Yeah, 100%. I mean, there's a difference in no and not now. 100%. Well, I think even for us, our story was unique because at actually six years in, I mean, I felt like I was pregnant, and every year I'd go visit California, scout the land out. It was like romance. I get down there, I'm like, I'm ready to pastor this church today. Right. But I go back to Idaho and they say, hey, it's not quite yet, not ready yet. And I got to the point of 2016, my brother-in-law was taking the church. You know, at this time the church is 35 years old or something. He's taken over. Our youth ministry is real big, youth ministry in our church.

24:58 And um, he said, Mark, I know you've been waiting for these last six years. He says, I'll send you, like this year, I'll send you blessed. And I felt a little bit of just a little bit, I could hear it in his voice, you know. It's a story about when David said, I'm just thirsty. I wish I had some water from the well. And some of his best friends knew him so well that they were willing to sacrifice everything to get water for him because they knew the tone of his voice. And I knew I knew Chris's voice. I said, Chris, if you could write our story of how I leave and when I leave, when would you want me to leave? That's awesome. And he said, Mark, he said, Um, to be honest with you, I think you guys leave, you're big leaders in our church. If you leave the same year that we take the church, that's a lot of rocking of the boat.

25:42 Right. He said, if you'll stay an extra year or so, he said, I'll even send you more blessed in the future. And I said, Chris, I want this to be a win for you, and I I want it to be a win for us. And he said something so profound. He said, Mark, if you'll make every decision on your transition with my best interest in mind, and I make every decision from my perspective with your best interest in mind, we'll do this transition better than anyone's ever done it. So beautiful. And that's what we did. I waited another two years. And I, you know, I think there's two things. When you're young, ambitious, I think there's two perspectives. I saw a lot of my friends leave to start churches, yeah. Great churches. And I saw a lot of a miss out on the joy of the last window of not being a lead pastor because of the obsession of the dream.

26:26 Yeah. You can shift into, I can't wait to do this. Yeah. And then I realized there was a second option. I can have the option B, which goes, Lord, I want to enjoy this last window before it's gone. Wow. Right. Um, when I moved to Idaho, my whole family followed me. So my daughters had both sets of grandparents, all of their cousins in a 10-mile radius. And I realized when we moved to California, this will be the last window of my family's life that will all be close like this. So rather than being motivated by my ambition, which I think all great leaders have good ambition, I had that drive. But instead of going, I can't wait, I wanted to have a let's enjoy this while it lasts. Yeah. And for me, that was able, that that was the difference between having a good attitude versus being in a hurry.

27:12 And um I do think the longer, you know, we we hear this all the time. My wife had two really bad pregnancies. We probably have a big family. I probably have 10 kids right now. So my wife can't keep her hands off me. But um, I mean, can you blame her? I'm just kidding. But no, we would have a bigger family, but my wife had two really hard pregnancies. Right. She had pre-clamtia, she had hypertension. She was on bed rest for both girls for three months each. Wow. Yeah. Like strict bed rest, right? Hospital bed in the living room. And she got on bed rest right around week 21. And so, you know, we know that when your wife gets pregnant, if your baby comes early enough, it's life-threatening. Yeah. And, you know, we know the story of Abraham that, you know, Abraham created all these problems in the Middle East, not because he didn't have a promised son, but because he tried to bring a promise to pass in his own strength, right?

28:04 In his own timing. Right. And I think for us, people go, they see the, you know, some of the blessing that God's put on our church and whatever else we're doing. I I think they they think it's, you know, you're only six years old and you guys bought this expensive building and there's a lot of cool things happening. But I would trace, you know, what we're doing now that God made up the time. Probably like your story, Pastor Jeff. That God made up the time of you being a good son, going because you didn't leave early and take the easy road and you didn't dishonor your father's to build your own field, um, but you actually stayed in the womb full term. Yeah. You came out healthier. I see a lot of my friends that start churches prematurely and they end up in a spiritual incubator.

28:47 Wow. And it's like they're in the NICU for the first five years of their church, yeah. Going, this thing's gonna die. Wow. We're just trying to keep it alive. We hate it. This is suffering. And I'm certainly not saying that every church that suffering is is pre premature, but I think for us, I think that we had a 10-pound baby because we kept that turkey in there as long as we could. Well, there's there's there's a real reality to the sending component. You use the cliche, which I use we all use, being sent versus just went. And and there is a spiritual authority when you go into an area, and especially if you're gonna go into an area with those kind of principalities and powers and that missiological structure in LA.

29:29 Yeah, right. And every every place has its own challenges and barriers. There's an authority there. And I know for me, that's what happened is I had this dream. I laid out a SWOT analysis, a plan, and my pastor leaned back in his chair and said, I don't like it. Yeah. And his word to me was you're not running to something, you're running from something. Yeah. And so it was this idea that there's a greener pasture syndrome. Yes, you know, and that can also be at work as well. Oh, I can't win in my youth ministry here or my children's ministry, or but I will win when I'm in charge, which is a lie. 100%. Right. And so I think that leads you to this area, LA, you know, different missiological, you know, what do I mean by that?

30:14 That's just the study of how to reach people. And so God's God, when you go with God's authority, you also get the keys to the kingdom that unlocks that on his behalf. I think something though, I want to spend just a moment on this as well, because I think I meet a lot of pastors and God sent you to a certain context. Okay. I pastored in a furniture store in a small East Texas, I mean a small town, uh, I pastored in a central Texas small church. I mean, uh, I I've pastored all contexts of people. I love people. Sure. So this isn't necessarily about, you know, one one group is better than any group. You just have to go to the assignment that you're given. 100%. But when you go to Orange County, you go to LA, you go to these areas, I think I want, I want to say a few things about reaching people that are up and out.

31:02 Because you use the term, hey, God sent me to the up and out. And and and what is it about pastors? Because I have a passion, I have a passion for that. You know, I I believe that that's why I I write about it. You know, the way to win book is a 38-week strategy to disciple business leaders to make them rich where they're poor. Yeah. Because riches, according to scripture, is not the car you drive or the house you live in, right? So it's like, what can we, what can we do? And I I believe pastors and and spiritual people have this deposit to offer there. Or, you know, talking about win with people, shepherd, shepherd, you know, being that shepherd, being that pastor.

31:43 I I want I want pastors to see, and I know there's probably some out there listening. What do I have to say to this person? You know, we can get intimidated. Sure. Like we can, we can feel like like I don't, I don't know how to, why would they want to sit with me? And you need to change, they have to change their whole perspective. Like you're one of the most valuable pieces that they could ever have in their life. 100%. One of the most successful guys in our area around here told me the other day, he said, you know, he he he just looked at me because I told him when he came to the church, he went to our membership class, and I said, you know, I don't expect you to trust me, but I look forward for the opportunity to be your pastor. Yeah, God's he's got tears in his eyes. Yeah, powerful. And he's like, No one's ever told me that. Yeah. So, so tell me how how you or what you would offer to people.

32:26 Maybe there's a young leader who's got an assignment where I've got a I've got a minister to these people older than me, or you got an assignment of people that have a different social structure or financial structure, like you going there, because you've had some influence with your area. What are some of the thinking processes about how are you helping those people win? What what value are you adding? Like how have you approached that? What was your thought process? Well, for me, I think I had to start figuring it out when I was when I was starting past a lot of these college football app football players. Yeah. I I knew that when they were in college, I mean, I was when I was helping out the football team, they weren't making millions of dollars. Right.

33:06 And some of these guys were getting busted for stealing sweats at Walmart because they were barely making it. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I could be a blessing to those guys. I had more money than they did. I had a house. These guys were broke college students. So when they're in college, you know, you have this kind of advantage to offer them, like, hey, come out, we'll hang out, we'll grab some food, we'll hang out together. But when they uh got to the pros and they're like, they don't need my help, they don't need a meal, they don't need these guys are doing great. And I I realized that um, what do you offer someone that has a beautiful spouse, a beautiful house that's on Sports Center, yeah, signs a giant contract? Right. What does some random dude in Idaho have to offer some guy that's playing in the Super Bowl?

33:50 And I thought, man, I actually could be the one person in the world that is praying for their marriage, that's good, for their babies, yeah, for their career, for their investments, and for the desires in their heart by name. And I realized that's that's what pastors do. Yeah. That's what makes us unique. Yeah, that we're going to God. You know, the Bible talks about, you know, Moses, Jethro. Jethro says, What's the job of a great pastor? And maybe some of the best advice for a pastor in the Old Testament is he says, your job is to go to God on the behalf of the people, to bring the difficulties of the people before God, yeah, and to teach them the way they need to walk, the work they need to do.

34:31 And I realize if I would go to God specifically and say, Lord, today I'm praying for my friend Jay, or I'm praying for my friend Jamar, or I'm praying for my friend. Wait, one of the guys, what can I pray for them today? And I would just listen to the voice, and God would give me a verse or something, I would send it to them. Yeah. And honestly, that, like to your point, it would make them rich. They would feel man, that I would say stopping there, like you underestimate every person, no matter and maybe even more so if you're if you're quote unquote successful, carrying pressure. Yep. Everybody needs encouragement. Just some encouragement, pray and send somebody a test. Telling them, man, I'm praying for you. Yeah, everybody's human. That's so huge. Huge.

35:12 I I had them all, so I started getting all the guys. We're gonna read a chapter a day, and I'd send them the chapter we're reading. Yeah, and I would send them my favorite verse of the day. Yeah. So I started with five guys and ten guys, and pretty soon, I mean, today I've been doing it now. I think I've been doing this since 2007. I have eight text threads with 30 guys in each thread. Wow. And I have one of them just dedicated to the NFL. Wow. And to this day, it's funny because now a lot of the guys are coaches in the NFL. Um, they're retired, you know, they're doing real estate now. Um, only a few of them are still in the league playing. Um, but I send a verse to them every single day still. It's the first thing I do when I wake up. And I've been doing that for the last, I don't know, 2007. You guys do the math on it, but a lot of years.

35:52 And those guys are like, and I've had so many people say, Man, Mark, I just needed a word from God this morning. Yeah. And that verse this morning you sent me. And so I've tried my best to be intentional with I I love that's so much of what your message is about being a shepherd. I just that resonates in me. I'm not the smartest guy, I'm not the most gifted guy. But I'm like, I'll love you well, and I'll talk to God about you. Yeah. And whatever he puts on my heart for you and your family, I'll share it with you. There you go. And I think that that is more valuable because you're right, most people in high places, everyone around them is leeching. Right. They want something from it, they're absorbing it. Yes. This is this is one of those things that I notice too is elder, elders' qualification, not fond of sordid gain.

36:37 So if you don't have, if you don't have faith that God is your provider, then you can't lead successful people. Because everybody around them is leeching off of their success or faith or whatever it is. I mean, but someone that has spiritual authority, you know, Jesus spoke as one having authority because we have Christ, then it's not, it's not about what they have. Yes. Right. And so the a person who's under the authority of Christ, you may be the one person also that gains the opportunity to tell them the truth. Obviously, we tell them the truth in love. Yes. But I care about your soul. 100%. And that and that gets tested too. Because I mean, I remember even in the early days.

37:17 Yeah. I remember I'm like, man, I feel like I have to pastor this guy. He just signed a giant contract, doesn't go to our church. I'm not a lead pastor. But I'm like, look, I need to pastor this guy and go, hey, you want God to bless your career, you put him first. Right. Put him first. That means you find a local church. I gave him a list of churches he can check out in that city. And I said, You might not like this. You might not like me for saying this, but I think you need to give God a reason to bless your football career. You want to do that? One of the ways, not the only, but one of the ways, you find a local church and I would tithe off of every dollar you make. So good. And I'm not going to preach anything to you that I don't live myself. I always tell people I don't sell anything that I don't smoke myself. It's good. And I said, I would do that if I was you. That's what I tell my kids. A reason to bless your life. Exactly.

37:57 And so, I mean, I ruffled some feathers, but I think, you know, a couple of thoughts. You said something really profound last night, I believe with all my heart, is people can tell the difference when you want something from them or you want something for them. It's really good. And I think it's okay. There's a fine line in, I think, in life, motive is such a there's such a thin line between a good motive and a bad motive. And I think every day we wake up as pastors and we go, God, let me never lose my pure motive. Exactly. I'm not trying to manipulate, I'm not trying to get something from anybody. And I think that if our heart, we fight for that true North to go, God, I don't ever want to fall in love with the rich young ruler for his influence, the rich young ruler for what he can offer our church.

38:43 I want to love him for what you have for him, not for what he can do for our church. And I think God stops trusting us with rich young rulers when we sacrifice his truth to keep their love. So good. And so that gets tested sometimes. It's really that's a stewardship, right? Like God, people will ask you, I know, how do you get those kind of leaders in your church? And it's like, well, how are you stewarding the relationships you already have? Those conversations are difficult conversations. You might be the only one in their life who'll have that conversation with them. So doing that is how God really opens those doors and allows those kinds of leaders into your environment. So to bring it full circle, so first of all, thank you. Yes, thank you for doing it right.

39:25 Thank you for going to that area of the country where, you know, of course, we hear the jokes and the stories and the whatever, right? But but those are real people that God loves and he cares about them. And, you know, it is a beautiful place to suffer for Jesus. Right. So yeah, I mean, but but thank you for doing it right and and thank you for being a place that's preaching the gospel and baptize America and water baptizing people, which is what Jesus before he ascended into the heavens said is a big part of what we're supposed to do. Thank you for for all of that. And and I think the takeaway, because I mean. I always want to bring the takeaway back to the everyday person out there winning. Okay.

40:05 What I what I what I hear, okay, is the faith and the trust in God to wait, to do it right, to prefer, to submit. All those words are they look great on paper. Not sexual. So faith, it's it's in the faith to trust God. If you're willing, whatever you compromise to get, you have to compromise to keep. So if you've if you're if you have the faith to do it God's way, that's the same faith that you trust God anyway, so you don't have to manipulate team members, staff, resources, buildings, NFL players, whoever they are, because you've you've been trusting God the whole time anyway.

40:51 And so the takeaway for me for this, your life, the impartation, listening to you with these leaders is hey, God is trustworthy. So like let's let's trust him. And and and he wants to give us big visions and dreams. Yes. He's still doing that. And if if we would trust, we we could win in a in a different dimension of winning. Yes. Like winning, winning holistically. Yes. You know what I mean? Winning with your family, winning with your soul, winning with your integrity, winning with your relationship still with your brother-in-law, your your you know, does does there have to be so much loss for somebody to win? Yes. And and I see that happening with you, and and we pray that God just continues to bless Ocean Church and everything you guys are doing because uh because God's doing amazing things.

41:40 So thank you for being here with me. Oh, it's my honor to be with you guys today. Thanks for having me. I want to thank both of you guys for the wisdom, inspiration, and a lot of practical things. I hope you out there watching took some of those practical things and we'll apply them. We want to thank you so much for joining us here on the Lead to Win podcast. We'll see you next time. I want to say thank you for checking out this episode of the Lead to Win podcast. I want you to know that I love and my team loves getting this kind of content into your life so it can help you lead and win at what matters most. So I'd love for you to do me a favor like, comment, especially subscribe if you would, so that we can make sure that we're able to get to you some of the things that are gonna help you lead to win.