The Shift Every Parent Has to Make (or Regret Later)

0:01 Nothing does more for your kid than being a settled parent that's grounded in the word of God. I think that sometimes we get so caught up in the externals of, you know, what if I'm a working mom or a stay-at-home mom or what if I give my kid organic or, you know, non-GMO or gluten or what, you know, just all these peripheral things that the culture tries to instill in us and make us so afraid that, or drive us towards a certain thing of this will make your kid turn out good. And it's like really nothing does more for your for your kid than being a subtle parent that loves God, loves your spouse, like just it's faithful and like faithful with your everyday.

0:44 Well, welcome to the Lead the Women Podcast. Today we are joined by obviously Pastor Jeff as always, but also Hannah Long. And today is a scary episode to say the least, because we all work together and we love hanging out, but we're family. And so this is a dangerous combination. I mean, the stories we could cut up and be here all day. Well, you didn't tell everybody who you are. Oh, I'm Caleb, by the way. Nice to meet you. Caleb Little, Hannah Little Long, which she has two babies and she gave us some little longs. True. Yeah. Yeah. That's my claim to fame. Little longs. Two little longs. Two little longs. He's in a talking phase right now, too, where he's doing a lot of big Sam.

1:25 He's doing a lot of talking. Maybe we should put his post his photo onto the podcast just so everybody can see him. Right below, you can see the picture. He has some amazing hair. He was pretty powerful. His sister got dedicated, uh, and he was up there. I promise you, I put him back, but I could have got him to talk to the crowd to where because he says the word highwi is yes. I don't know where he got this, but it's like, do you love Papa? High we do you love Tay Te? That's KK Caleb. Highwi. What does high we mean? Highwi means yes. He says yes. It's the funniest thing. And then when you put him down though, he went, he started going crazy. It was like dudes want me.

2:06 Yeah, he wanted you. So then yeah, mom had to pick him up. And so honey picked him up, and then he was okay. And he saw a couple people in the front row that he knew. He was like, hi, hi, hi. He stole the show, but well, today we are continuing. So mom was just on. We had a lot of fun. We were talking about just marriage, relationships, all that fun stuff. But today we are talking about just family that lasts. Uh over the course of the podcast, you've always had a passion, even in your books before that, talking about like what what do people really care about? The things that you're gonna care about in the long run. How do you win in those areas? And so today we're gonna dive a little bit into that raising kids, what it was like for us, and how we now really be scary.

2:50 I mean, it's one level of scary to have mom, but mom is not mom is more reserved. Um you two scare me to death, honestly. So but it's dangerous territory. I am cracking up looking at Caleb. I cannot. He's killing me. I'm sorry. Okay. Well Well, today we're gonna we're gonna jump right in. Cracking up about Caleb. Caleb is the leader of this podcast. You're submitted to it. You are well. I'm just laughing. We're gonna jump right in. We're gonna we're gonna talk about which we've already talked about. Obviously, you have four kids. Hannah's the oldest.

3:31 I came pretty quick after that. 13 months. And you used to lock us upstairs and put the gate, and we would have to get our weight combined together to open the gate. We'd jump on it. So y'all came together as a team. Yeah. Now we're kind of like twins, really, at some level. I think it's good to clarify though, because people have always thought you were older because you looked about how you do now when you were 13. I know. Well, yeah. So there was that. But I think it's reversed. I think I started out looking older, and then now I'm kind of backtracking. Now it's like, oh, are you 18? I think maybe I could go. No. Yeah. Okay.

4:12 You have obviously the two of us. Then Lauren started nursing school. She's in college. She's gonna be 20 here in November. Coming up. And then Lainey Kate just started high school freshman year. So she's 10 years younger than Hannah. Right. So pretty big gap. You've navigated all the seasons, young kids. Now, Hannah, we just talked about you have two young kids, and I wanted to pull out one of the things that you talk about a lot because Hannah and I started thinking about stories and got to talking the other day on the phone. I want to talk about really the three areas you use to break down the idea of parenting or phases of life, if you will. The first one you talk about is cop.

4:52 So I know you pulled this from some other places, you kind of brought this together, but define what the cop season is. Yeah, I mean, I I I think now people have written on it. I think the um the uh there's some teaching and and there's this is I don't know if it's been trademarked or what, but actually um I think for me this was so helpful to think about when your kids are little. I feel like I was we were better young kid parents because you know we were hands-on, we were you're you're basically just trying to build barriers and rules and discipline, and um I think some people struggle with that phase because now a lot of our culture today is is so kid-centered, you know.

5:44 And so I think as I read scripture, God has to be the center. So everyone submitted to God, everyone you know submitting to God's word in the family. And then it it really starts as a progression. God, husband, wife, holy matrimony, marriage, that's God's plan, then the kids, then church, then society. So it's like so the kids um come into that structure, and what we've done in our world today is we worship our kids so they become the center of the universe.

6:25 And what we actually think is by giving them what they want, like that's good, it helps them adapt and develop, it actually makes them more insecure. Right. Because kids, kids look for a boundary, yeah. They look for the boundary, they feel safer in an environment of boundaries of some level. And so um I think that you know, legalism is where you have rules without relationships, right? So you so of course loving your kids and being with them, and you know, it's not like uh discipline is a small portion of parenting, but a very important portion. So um so I think you know, legalism is an extreme rules, but then the other side is uh this is a big word, antinomianism, which means there's there's a world of no rules.

7:13 Right. I think we lean as a culture, me, the people I pastor, lean toward they're scared of their kids' reaction, they don't want to pay the price to actually discipline their kids. Honestly, I meet them and they'd be like, Well, it didn't work. I'm like, Well, you you really didn't discipline, right? You know, but the old saying, discipline requires discipline. So does it sometimes it's just energy, like the energy required. Straight out energy. Every time I call Hannah, we're on the phone and I'm talking and I hear you know, and if you don't stop right now, you know, and I'm like, I'll call you back later. I'll see you later. But you're in like in the thick of that right now. Yeah, two under two. So Samuel will be two um coming up, and then Ellie's, you know, eight months old.

7:57 So definitely in the thick of two under two, and just that phase of like very hands-on, you know, tackle the man with the ball, like you're just trying to get through every single day. But yeah, sometimes it's just the energy required. Like, do I want to spend the energy right now to to take the extra time to discipline my kid right now when it'd kind of be easier just to let it slide? But I think that's something that I've learned so well from you and mom is just, you know, not that you guys did it perfectly, but finding those moments of, okay, I want to be consistent because I want to teach them that they can trust my word and trust that what I I'm gonna follow through on what I say. So I'm not gonna say, if you're gonna get in trouble and I'm gonna count to three and then four and then five and then six.

8:40 It's no, if you do that, then there's gonna be consequences for it. And the trust that you build with your child following through on that is something that stuck with me and now trying to implement that with my kids. But yeah, sometimes it's just the work and the energy required. Well, and I remember I think two two things were always emphasized when we were young, which I mean, there's not a study, we don't know for sure, but I mean the two of us got a lot more spankings than the two that followed. A lot. Um Yeah. I mean, I think that that's the the a lot of people think that your strong-willed kid. Again, strong-willed kids are not really the challenge as long as you're the parent.

9:21 Right. So so they actually end up showing you where they're at. I think one of the top things that parents are learning now is you know, we used to talk about the strong-willed child, the strong-willed child. Actually, the strong-willed child is so upfront with everything they're doing and where they're at, you tend to give them the attention. And what a lot of parents are awakening to, it's actually the compliant child that can be more dangerous because in their heart are the wrong things. So, I mean, so yeah, and and I think your first kids you tend to be a little bit more intentional and aggressive with, but aggressive, I think, is a good word. It's survival, okay.

10:02 Um we were man-to-man, two-on-two, you know. But well, and every kid has different personalities, so it's understanding like how to parent them where they're at, where you know, like me and Caleb very strong-willed, and there was times where it was like my will versus your will, and I will not. Caleb was a was at least a little wiser. You were like full on out there, just like I'm just gonna get just I know, and now I'm uh I'm reaping the fruit of that because I got one myself. So you're reaping the benefit. But what I was saying a second ago, I think what I always found consistent and to be true was you always emphasized two things when it came to discipline. And the first was integrity, so lying.

10:43 Did you lie to your teacher? Did you say a partial truth or or anything in that realm of integrity? And then disrespecting adults was always a big thing. There was additional punishment, or there was always gonna be punishment around those two things. And while it seemed intense, or just man, every single time there's gonna be discipline about that, but as I get older, there's a seed of respect with authority, or and we're not perfect, but those things really were moments when we were young where we received something or a way of seeing things that now that we as we get older, you know, respect, honor, uh, integrity are things that come more naturally.

11:27 I mean, again, I it's like I I've always had such a hesitancy to talk about these things, you know. Like we were just we were doing what what we we believe God had called us to do. We're using the word of God as a as a manual. We, you know, to to there's not there's not a book on raising kids. I try to always tell people that I have I have really the fear of the Lord about sharing on it, and there's also just a lot of people have a lot of pain in this area. So I'm definitely, definitely um, you know, depending on the grace of God. But I do think, yeah, why, why? Let's go to the word. Why would you guys you're it if you lie, it's on.

12:11 Why? Because the very foundation of your relationship with God is He is not a man that He should lie, right? So, and then your integrity and the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. So you're talking about how you relate to them, if you don't keep your word, if you don't discipline them, if you allow them, then you're actually setting up their view of God, right? The second thing that disrespecting the Bible says honor your father and mother, and that's the only commandment that's connected to a promise. And it will go well with you. So if you don't train your kids to be respectful, and and the larger deal with younger kids is really parenting the heart.

12:56 Right. I think where a lot of parents get trapped is they get a good outward response, but they're not looking at where the heart's really at. Yeah, I think that one's key because I think a lot of times just as we've gotten older, we've had people ask us, like, why, you know, how's it grown up as pastor's kids? Or or, you know, you guys still love the church and like you love each other and like you love what you do, and it is the grace of God, but it's also you guys were never focused on our performance. So it didn't feel like that. It wasn't like, oh, I'm the I'm the pastor's kid of some church and I have an expectation. It was more like that's just just what we do because it's who we are. Nobody cares.

13:36 And yeah, nobody, nobody cares that much. I just think we we over-emphasized that. Now, I will say I underemphasized it probably to where I had to awaken to some of the pressures y'all were carrying. Y'all were also, you know, everybody's context is different. Y'all also, our church was, you know, growing, but it wasn't where it is. Y'all grew up in a little bit less of the of it, which was was God's grace, to be honest. But but either way, I think we overemphasize it. Right. We don't identify ourselves as pastors' kids or or or or pastor. I mean, we we're followers of Christ, you know, and I think sometimes people are like, well, everybody's watching me. No, everybody's thinking about themselves.

14:17 Like, don't overemphasize your importance here and and don't, and so I think you had one of our staff pastors um who actually said to you at your womanhood ceremony that we do when you turn 13 where we were praying over you, it's like you can see this as a pressure or a privilege. Yeah. And I think it goes back to the heart, you know what I mean? Like at the end of the day, out of your heart flow the issues of your life. Right. And the the goal in that is helping to steward those hearts under you. Because I think a lot of young parents, their fear is not even just rejection, that's a big one, but it's like, I really love my kid.

14:57 I don't want to hurt them, I don't want to mess them up, I don't want to give them trauma, you know, just like all of those fears that when you're a new parent trying to figure it out, you're you can be so afraid sometimes you're gonna mess it up. And really, it's like the Bible's pretty clear that if you love your kid, you do discipline them because you want to set them up for success later, that you love them enough to spend the energy, to spend the time to set those healthy boundaries in place, even if it's uncomfortable for you at times or it costs something. When the kid when the kid is allowed to run the home, meaning the energy spent to discipline them to where they dictate everything in our life their schedules, their lives, their travel, their happiness, their desire for another cookie, then then which Samuel has a strong bent towards that.

15:48 Strong bent toward yeah, many of those things. But you should tell the story of what you did this weekend as papa. Yeah, I I I gave him two glasses of chocolate milk because we were playing throw the pickleball in the pool, which he thought was amazing. And I had like a deal, he throws it in, he's and he's amazed by it. Then I get it out, then he throws it in. So we were playing that. Then we got two two glasses of chocolate milk. And what else? Diet Coke. I believe I have to train him that you if you eat a Snickers or you drink chocolate milk, you have to drink Diet Coke to bust up the show. No, that is caffeine. So he drinks Coke, and then you text me, Dad, you have to stop. He just threw up in his bed.

16:29 And so I was like grandparents. Oh no. He's definitely a little. He loves sweet tree. He does. He loves the sweet tree. He loves a sweet tree, and I can't blame him, honestly. Yeah. Well, I I just want to, before we close out this segment, Hannah, I know we've talked, and as much as we joke about it, you're in that season right now. What advice would you give to a young parent, maybe a leader, someone that um is just watching right now? What would you give them? What advice would you say for someone that just feels overwhelmed in that season? Maybe a bunch of young kids that feels like maybe they're not winning or it's two steps forward, two steps back. What would you say to that person? I mean, there's so much. I think, you know, and we didn't really say this up front, but we're not perfect.

17:12 Like we don't have the standard by any means. We're just trying to give biblical principles that I've seen my parents model and model well and stuff that, you know, my husband and I are learning along the way as we go. So we're not experts, we don't have it all figured out. It's not a p fail-proof method, it's just biblical principles. But what I would say, and that is we're talking a lot about discipline, that's a key part of this age, but nothing does more for your kid than being a settled parent that's grounded in the word of God. Right. I think that sometimes we get so caught up in the externals of, you know, what if I'm a working mom or a stay-at-home mom, or what if I give my kid organic or, you know, non-GMO or gluten or what, you know, just all these peripheral things that the culture tries to instill in us and make us so afraid that or drive us towards a certain thing of this will make your kid turn out good.

18:05 And it's like really nothing does more for your for your kid than being a settled parent that loves God, loves your spouse, like just is faithful and like faithful with your everyday. I mean, I just observed I observed this along the way that there's a lot of power in just letting your kids be. There's so much pressure now that like it's like all this stuff. We got these lists and we have these practice. It's like whatever happened to just like playing in the dirt. Like this weekend I preached on you know, where the anxious generation when control goes up, anxiety increases. True. So if you're this ankle, oh my god, and they it's true, they use detergent.

18:46 Oh, they what what that all your kids take that on, they take that on, yeah. It's more of a spirit and a culture of your home thing, and so that would be my biggest advice. It's just you know, it all the other stuff doesn't matter so much, and just let that fade away. Just focus on like loving God, loving your family, and it's all gonna be okay. Yeah, so good. Well, we're gonna move into the next segment that you talk a lot about, which may be your most passionate topic as it relates to all of this parenting stuff, but talking about the coach phase, which you are a coach by nature, the way that you lead our team, the way that you lead our family is through the heart of the lens of a coach. So talk to us about this season. What's unique about this?

19:27 What did you learn going through that process? And and what would you share? I believe I would, I got exposed to the concept, and I believe I would have messed a lot of stuff up and still did make a lot of mistakes, you know, because but I I think that one concept, and I just had this picture, okay, like I'm used to being on this side of the table, my kids on that side of the table. Although I, you know, played cars with you every night. We had our own little car village, and I was at your your bedside. I just tell a lot of parents with that young kid being at their bedside, being there, praying with them, you know, being connected to them, all of that. So I wasn't, I mean, it's not like I didn't have a connection, but but I think it was me on this side of the table talking, and then I saw a vision of me like pulling my chair around to the other side of the table.

20:20 And Hannah was the first one to hit that phase. She and I actually were at a camp together, and I remember when we were like walking down the road, and it was like, you know, it was it was awkward for me, like trying to, you know, it's like my daughter, but she's becoming a woman, and then like this whole marking moment of like she grabbed my hand, and it was like it, it it was like we're in this together. Yeah, you know, like I I had this, I had this whole thing of like we're gonna, we're gonna we're gonna face this journey together, and she felt me moving my chair around on this side, right? Which then gave us the ability, you know, to to look at it different.

21:04 And and I think it's so interesting that we underdiscipline our kids, then we try to control our teenagers, right? Like it's so interesting. We flip-flop the whole thing. It's like we don't discipline the heart. By the way, you're not trying to break you know their spirit, right? But their will, the will should be like. Exactly. Rebellion is bound up in the heart of the child, the rod of discipline drives it away. So there's but I think then then then then we're like teenagers tracking them on 360 and trying to micromanage their life. Like it's like their teacher and that's a good thing they didn't have that when we were growing up.

21:47 Oh my god, yeah. Oh, we were all over. Oh man. But I I think I think that one shift in my mind, and so then I had to convey it to your mom, who's belief-centered. And mom, actually, what I think she's really good at is me leading and moving forward. Mom was always really good at also creating a safe space, watch a movie, not you know, I think there's it's important for kids to just be low pressure, low performance, right? Mom, but on this side of things, she was like, I don't think so. Like, I am keeping my badge, I am a cop. I was like, okay, we gotta we gotta change gears here, you know.

22:29 So then I started more of okay, if you have this freedom, then here's the responsibility or accountability that has to go with it. And it's it's scary and it's messy to move to like the coach phase. It's all it all comes back to communication, right? So the communication upped so much in that in that season. Why did you make that choice? What was your heart, you know, posture going into that? Um what are you thinking? What are you believing about yourself? What are what are you even believing to be true? I mean, we went through different things where we'd come home and be like, this is true, and you'd be like, go ahead and sit down, we're gonna talk about that. Right. And and it forced conversation to get a really ultimately what was in our heart.

23:11 I mean, we we were we were you guys were a generation now exposed to social media, exposed to different viewpoints and all of this. And here we did not grow up with that, and then you guys have these exposures to all these ideologies, and there was times we were having to sit down and talk about you know, sex, marriage, family, whatever. I mean, this is what the word says. Right. And I I mean, I don't some people some people maybe listening need to just decide, am I gonna build my family on the word? Right. Because it's easy to say, I'm gonna, I I I believe in that until you have to actually challenge your child to go, that's not in the book, right? Right. And so if you go back to the model, I think like in the the cop phase with little kids, you're really parenting their heart.

23:55 You're trying to, you know, talk about rebellion and boundaries and all of these things, and then you get into the coach phase and you're really shaping their worldview. So that was a lot of the conversations we were having was okay, we've talked about some of the heart things, and you're still doing that along the way. It's kind of like building blocks, but you're also you were spent so much time shaping our worldview. I mean, it was there was a lot of evenings, again, going back to the energy thing, like two, three in the morning, we're sitting across the counter, just the three of us going at it because that was our personality and what we needed. But it was a I'm not gonna let it go mentality until I feel like you have the revelation. And even at times that that frustrated us so much, it was so important because it was it was core things in our worldview that were being shaped during that time.

24:44 And now being adults, you look back and think, I can't imagine. I mean, at the time it was like, give me a break, you know, like let us be free. But it was like to come home from work, right, do all the things that you were doing, and then sit at the counter with us till two in the morning. For us, it felt like, man, I I need a break, but looking back, I'm so grateful that you took the time and the energy to actually process through. Because of how strong we were, we needed somebody that strong to keep us on track. Well, I think it's I think I think as parents, again, we feel rejection. We've we we feel we feel like you know, because the the the the coach phase too is teenage you're testing boundaries, you're trying to discern, okay, I want them to be adults.

25:24 So you're really struggling through some of those freedoms, and then you feel them kind of pushing away. I tell parents of teenagers, like, don't don't retreat. Yes, press in. Right. And I think that I just want to talk to, you know, like our relationship and even of some of what you're sharing about this camp we went to and going into the teenage years. A lot of that I think was in the area for us of dating. Like just that, that that can be super uncomfortable. I'm sure looking back, it was super uncomfortable for you, but I'm so grateful because you pressing in in that area in my life and being like, I'm not gonna let you just do whatever you want to do here. I'm gonna be involved.

26:04 I want to be on your team, like I want to talk to you about it. I'm not gonna, you know, even if something as practical and simple as taking me on dates. Like, I think that that was such a big thing because it taught me, you know, what I should be looking for, that I'm valued. And then it was also our time. Yeah, true. Now my husband has to deal with that. But yeah, but you would take the time to sit across from me and ask me those questions like, is there anyone you like? Who are you thinking about? And I know it must have been felt awkward and uncomfortable at times, but I'm so glad you pressed in because it made me feel like I could trust you with that area of my life and God blessed that ultimately.

26:45 Yep, that's right. What would you say? Because even I think what you were saying a minute ago to the parent that feels like if I confront that, I might lose them, or if I deal with that, they may never come back to this relationship. So maybe the parent that's struggling with a teen or knows they need to address something or have the conversation, what would you say to them? I think, you know, first the first thing is, you know, before trying to be understood, you have to start to try to understand. So it's like join them where they're at, build it's leader, honestly, it's kind of leadership 101. You have to add value, you have to get change in the bank before you make withdrawals. True. And I think I think the words I'm sorry, hey, tell me where I've missed it, being vulnerable with your kids.

27:29 Hey, I I really blew that. I was probably overboard on this and should have been more focused on this. I think your kids know. So I think being more humble with them, hey, I just want to tell you, I I think I kind of messed that up. Here was my heart. Yeah, but I messed it up a little bit. I think when you stay in cop mode, you totally lose influence. For sure. You know, but I think join them where they're at, find ways to add value to what they're into. Um, and and then, you know, I think though when it boils right down to it, you have to love them enough to not need their acceptance to tell them what they need to hear. And that's very hard. Very hard.

28:09 And there's some risk there. I mean, you we had a moment before your senior year where where you know you were talking about playing football or or different times where it was always remember the issue's not the issue. So there's things that's being worked out, right? Or or dating or whatever with y'all. And I think you you can't, I always say you can't fight every battle, but when you see a heart thing there that hey, that'll kill them in the long run. Yeah. And you know you have to push that in the high stakes areas, you just gotta be willing to go all in. But again, it's funny because looking back, like you guys weren't always so hyper fixated on the things that maybe other people are always like on, but it was always things that felt weird or random, but again, it goes back to the heart.

28:56 So it's like whether it was Red River, New Mexico, and me wanting to go country. No, we need to tell this story. So gosh. I hope no one from this time in my life listens to this and hears it. I think we need to share it for one second. But so we we go on a trip, just a family vacation, and we're flying back. And Hannah is sitting next to me on the airplane. She's in college at this point. She's in college. Yeah, we're I think I was a senior in high school, maybe a freshman in college, and she's like, I need you to be on my team because I'm gonna pitch something. Not that y'all ever did not not that that ever happened. She said, I'm gonna pitch something and dad's not gonna like it, but I need you to just agree with me, go to the rack with me, and whatever.

29:36 And so we did a little, you know, fist bump or something. It was like, okay, we're on the team together. And I watched what could only be known as a scary situation where she let him know her plans, which were to go to Red River, New Mexico that evening. Yep. And back in the same day. A friend of hers who I knew, but she's telling me we're on the plane, and she's like, I'm going to Red River when we get home tonight. We're gonna land at like 10. And so she's like, Yeah, I'm going to Red River. I'm like, Red River, New Mexico. And I mean, again, now she has her own car. She's driving. She's in college, but I'm still like, hold on a minute. Like, I'm I'm still involved here. I'm I'm very much moving way to the coach side, but I do still help out with a few of these college bills and stuff.

30:19 Yeah. I'm like, Red River, New Mexico, are you crazy? She's like, oh, I'm going. It was probably nice detected this attitude, right? And like, and so then she said, No, well, my friend's dad's gonna drive. And then she's like, we'll be back tomorrow. And I was like, So you're driving all night. And she goes, We're gonna go at their grandma's house. I'm like, I'm trying to put the pieces together. And I'm like, but you're gonna be back tomorrow night. So you're gonna drive from Dallas 15 hours and basically maybe sit down and have like some cornbread and beans with her grandma and then turn around and drive all the way back. And her dad's doing this plan. I don't know. And I look at her dad, I'm like, this doesn't make sense. So at this point, we're standing at the carousel.

31:00 No, this is on the plane, but it got in on the plane because she then chose to push her chips harder. Right. I don't really care what you think. I'm going. I'm like, okay, that that right there, okay, it's it's game on. Okay. And I'm like, you're not going. So she's already upset by the time we get to the baggage carousel. You end up sending the whole family away. I mean, you just everyone go to the car. Lauren, Lauren, her sister, is so embarrassed. She's like, I can't believe y'all. This is embarrassing. It's a bad testimony before Christ. They're both standing on either side of me, and it looks like it's about to get scary in there. Your friend from Baylor was there too.

31:41 Yeah, she was, I didn't say hi. It wasn't the right time. So, long story short, it's not pretty at the baggage claim, but then you end up getting your phone back on to figure out where you're going to be able to do. Before that, no, before that. Yeah, she goes, you're gonna she goes, that the apex of the conversation at the baggage claim, she goes, if you want me to stay, you're gonna have to chain me down. I said, Well, let's look up. Home depot's not that far. Because I'll go get some chains, but chain your butt down right now. And so, I mean, she doubled down hardcore. Then we get back in the car and she looks up the messages from her friend that she didn't get, and they were going to country dancing at some little place called Red River.

32:24 It's called Red River, and it's like a country dancing place in the world. And they had already gone and she couldn't even go. Right. They were like, Oh, we already left. And I was like, uh, oh, never mind after gone. It's like, oh, I'm good, I'm not going. Everyone was like, uh, seriously? But that's funny. Speaking of that, we're moving now out of coach into consultant, which is really the last step as your kids become adults, and every parent's heart is that they have a relationship with their adult kids where they're brought in in certain moments just for advice or whatever it may be. And so we've already kind of gone into this sphere a little bit, but even now, obviously, this is the season that we're in. What would you say you've learned about that season?

33:06 Just the do's and don'ts of relating to and really what your ultimate goal is with your adult kids. Well, I mean, ultimately, like, I mean, you want your kids to, you know, again, I tell people, for me, what I'm most proud of with you guys is that you guys have a genuine relationship with God and you spend time with God. And really, all you have really when your kids leave your home is that they know how to hear from the Holy Spirit, listen to his word. And so I think I had to allow, I I didn't come, my my dad wasn't in ministry, so I did I didn't come from a ministry background. Even us sitting here, like for me, is a totally different paradigm. And I'll be honest, I really didn't see it.

33:48 I mean, I can truly say that, and y'all know that. Like, I wasn't driving y'all toward this of y'all being in ministry or being here with me or me being your pastor. I had a you know, and up until a certain point, I was your pastor, but then you went to college and and I encouraged you to find a church, and you went and had a pastor, and you served in that church, and even helped at a like moderate staff type thing at your college church, and then Caleb moved to Oklahoma and he interned and served for five years under a different pastor, finished your college, you introduced Hannah to one of your pastors on staff there, and she ended up moving to Oklahoma. And at one point, you guys were all in Oklahoma, right?

34:31 You know, I'm from Texas, born and brave, born and raised. So I was like, I I mean, I you can't really get to heaven from Oklahoma, but anyway. So but I think you guys, and there was a point where for you, you didn't know if you were gonna be a missionary in India, you didn't know what God had called you to. Hannah then marries Jansen. Jansen, you know, I I mean, I believe that that now he's the head of your house. You're joining the vision God's given him. Right. So I train my daughters to be wives, and and y'all are a team, and we mutually submit one to another, but there's also a submission to his I'm not I'm I have to I give my daughter to now him.

35:13 So then Jansen's working through, and there was one point he didn't know if he was gonna plant a church. Right. What am I getting at? You guys are working through this, and I I think if if I there was a moment there, if I'm being honest, I began to think, okay, maybe they're gonna come back here, and you kind of think, but that would be that would be good. But I believe like if you have to have your kids to be secure. See, I I would tell y'all, because y'all, when you were teenagers, you're like, we're leaving here, Keller's boring, blah blah blah. I was like, well, me and your mom, we love each other, we love our church, we're gonna be fine. I think if you're not content yourself with your life, it's very hard to pasture adult kids.

35:55 I think y'all know I love y'all, y'all come over for dinner, we can spend time, but like I'm not dependent on you for my happiness. Like, you don't have to make it, you know, and I think a lot of parents put too much pressure. Yeah. So I think I think there's the balance of I love, I love to have you, but I don't want to put so much pressure on you that it drives you away. Right? And so why am I going to this? I think you're just sort of walking it out, but by God's grace, I let you guys come to the revelation that this is what you wanted. And and and and and you know, also having other anchors and pastors that do you really do you really allow your kids to submit to other people like in a real way?

36:42 Not a lot of parents do. They may say that's their youth pastor, that's their pastor. But for y'all, I mean, my pastors have been very influential in your life, and and we've allowed them to give us direction, even when I could mess it up. Right. I think, and so But ultimately, I think what you're saying is you were helping us get to what we were called to, right? Right. Not what you thought or what you saw for us. But what's God, how has God uniquely designed this kid? How can I help them and add value to get them them to what they're they're called to? Um so so But I think the greatest and highest privilege at the end of the day is that your kids actually do do when they don't have to respect your opinion or want to know your advice, right?

37:28 And so then I think the other thing is though too, is then the joy for me is allowing them to be teammates and for them to actually feel like they're actually a part, you know, of um I don't know, I've noticed that recently that not everybody's good at working with young leaders because they're too insecure, right? And so there's a difference in oh, I have young leaders and really letting them come to the table and offer opinions and really lead, right? And you do a really good job with that, not not even necessarily just with us, just in general. And you live that out. But I think it it's the building blocks, right? Because we that's something you say a lot. If you so many parents try to be their friend when they're little, but if you discipline them when you're little, when they're little, then you get to be their friend when they're older.

38:15 And just that that principle of if you'll invest that time then and not be afraid to be rejected, not be afraid or insecure, then you get the privilege and get to reap the benefits of being their friend when they're older. And I feel like that's a season we're in now, but also like you know, you and mom modeled that so well that like we love we love getting to be here. And like Jansen and I ask you guys like, what would you do on this or what would you do on that? And we model a lot of our parenting stuff and we're asking your wisdom, but you guys are so good also about knowing those moments when hey, that's something that y'all need to talk about as a family, or um, you know, just even respecting those boundaries or things that maybe we do differently with the kids than it was when you guys were raising kids, just always being so good and honoring of like you know, keeping the front door open like it's an o it's a welcome policy, but not putting so much pressure expectation on it, and then also honoring and respecting us as a family unit and where we're at and what God's called us to.

39:14 I think that's the number one thing. I mean, this is a new season for me, right? I mean, I'm just I'm I'm it but I do believe that I see uh parents of adult kids put so much pressure that it damages the relationship because they're really we're really f trying to fulfill their desires. You know what I mean? So um and it's hard because every parent just wants to have a relationship with their kids, so it makes sense. But and it can even feel like it. Like it can feel like Caleb said before, hey dad, you know, whatever. Like I'm just saying I want y'all to know we're having this, I'd love for you to come, but even in that, my words carry weight, so I have to always be careful to qualify.

39:54 There's no pressure. What y'all need to do, whatever your schedule, you know. As parents, we we carry a lot of weight with what we say, right? And even just practically like I think this is something you guys model really well too. It's just finding ways to add value. Like, hey, y'all go on a date, we'll watch the kids, or or just different things like that that add value to your kids in the season that they're in. It's such a practical way, I think, um, for adult parents to like create that space for their kids where they they want they want to be around you and they want to feel welcome and they want to feel invited and spend time. So true. Well, thank you both so much for just sharing. I know, um I know this is an area that every leader, every person watching cares about and and can take something away from.

40:39 So thank you again. I want to say thank you for checking out this episode of the Lead to Win podcast. I want you to know that I love and my team loves getting this kind of content into your life so it can help you lead and win at what matters most. So I'd love for you to do me a favor like, comment, especially subscribe if you would, so that we can make sure that we're able to get to you some of the things that are going to help you lead to win.