March 31, 2026

The Reluctant Leader: Called Into Something You Didn’t Choose

The Reluctant Leader: Called Into Something You Didn’t Choose
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The hardest room to lead is often your own home. In this conversation, we sit down with Pastor Jeff to share the tension every communicator feels when teaching on family: staying honest without dishonoring your story, offering hope without pretending you have a perfect formula, and resisting the pressure to turn principles into rigid methods people can copy and compare.

TIMESTAMPS
0:00 - Welcome And How It Began
3:05 - Why Family Topics Draw Leaders
10:15 - Defining The Reluctant Leader
18:55 - Why Family Feels So Painful
28:55 - Prodigals And The Need For Hope
33:10 - When Kids Become A Bigger Idol
38:20 - Home Stability Expands Leadership Capacity
41:50 - Parenting Principles Beat Parenting Formulas
49:40 - Marking Moments That Make Love Felt

LEAD TO WIN RESOURCES
More Resources: https://leadtowin.com/
Win With People: https://leadtowin.com/pages/win-with-...
Register for Leaders Gathering: https://leadersgathering.leadtowin.com/
Information on Milestone Church: https://milestonechurch.com/

FIND US AT: https://leadtowin.com

GET IN TOUCH: Contact us at info@leadtowin.com

FOLLOW PASTOR JEFF
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jefflittle/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pastorjefflittle

FOLLOW LEAD TO WIN
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/leadto.win/

00:00 - Welcome And How It Began

03:05 - Why Family Topics Draw Leaders

10:15 - Defining The Reluctant Leader

18:55 - Why Family Feels So Painful

28:55 - Prodigals And The Need For Hope

33:10 - When Kids Become A Bigger Idol

38:20 - Home Stability Expands Leadership Capacity

41:50 - Parenting Principles Beat Parenting Formulas

49:40 - Marking Moments That Make Love Felt

WEBVTT

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.040
Well, I want to welcome you back.

00:00:01.199 --> 00:00:04.799
We are jumping into another episode of the Lead to Win podcast.

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And I'm really excited for you to get to watch this episode today because it really impacted me.

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The really the way that this episode came about was very different than any that we've had before.

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A couple weeks ago, our team was planning and preparing to do an episode on family, which so many of you have said, hey, we want more content on that, marriage, dating, parenting, all that stuff.

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So we were planning and preparing for that.

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And we end up in a meeting with Pastor Jeff where we're sitting at a table and he starts to explain this concept of the reluctant leader.

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Now, if you know Pastor Jeff or if you've ever watched this uh podcast or been around him, heard him preach, you know, he's a pretty strong, definitive leader in a lot of areas, but he started to explain this idea of feeling like a reluctant leader in certain areas, especially the one that we were talking about.

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And so I started asking questions.

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It started getting heated.

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We started with this massive dialogue as really a family and a team.

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And I remember we just looked at each other and I was like, I think we should take this downstairs and record this episode.

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He was like, okay, let's do it.

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So we came and we sat at this table and we got into it.

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We had a dialogue and a discussion about the fact that let's be honest, we all feel like a reluctant leader in areas.

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Maybe you know that you need to talk about something, you know that you need to lead in a certain area, but you feel a little reluctant to do that.

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And so I just started asking him, like, tell us how you think about that.

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And it really turned into a unique episode that I'm excited for you to get to check out.

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So let's do this.

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Let's check out this episode right now.

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Well, today we had on the schedule a couple different podcasts, you know, that are really one episode that we wanted to film, but we just got out of a conversation just to set the framework a little bit.

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As a church, we're in a season getting close to Easter, but we always do a family series at the church where you talk about marriage and family, kids, parenting.

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And along with that, that series that's coming up, one of the things we had talked about with the Lead to Win podcast, because I know we have so many viewers that you watch that are maybe from other areas or a part of church or in ministry, even just leaders.

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But a lot of people, even in our own church, listen to the podcast.

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I get texts during the week, you know, I love this episode.

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I got to check that out.

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And and a few months ago, we did an episode on family, and it turned out to be one of the episodes that we got the most feedback on.

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Right.

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People saying, thank you for talking about this.

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Thank you for bringing up this topic.

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And so we we had kind of thought maybe we need to do another episode, but then again, the request just started rolling in.

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And so we had planned to do an episode today, but you and I just got out of a conversation talking about this topic and why you care about it and even some of your leadership thoughts behind it, even your own journey with this topic.

00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:03.599
But I'm excited for this episode and I'm excited to see what comes out of it.

00:03:03.759 --> 00:03:06.080
But let's just start by talking about the church, right?

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You've talked about this topic in the series Let's Talk Family almost every year now, but it really came out of the starting place was the church asking for you to talk about family, marriage, parenting.

00:03:19.199 --> 00:03:25.199
Um, what what kind of stirred you on or kind of made you want to talk about this topic to begin with?

00:03:25.680 --> 00:03:48.960
Well, I think, I think I started, if I'm really, really just taking it all the way back, I I started with Let's Talk Family or a family series after Easter because my context, you know, I was I was 28 years old when I started Milestone and I pastor in a suburban context in the Dallas-Fort Worth area.

00:03:49.120 --> 00:03:54.159
As you said, a lot of our we hear from teachers and business leaders and people.

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And then we also have, you know, we love serving pastors and helping leaders in general.

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But but my my real job and my other than Christ and my family and uh trying to be a probe ass fisherman or some of the things that's a good thing.

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On the side, yeah, a little bit of that.

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Other than that, like I my my stewardship in all seriousness is I'm I'm the pastor of a family, a congregation, a group of people called Milestone Church.

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And every decision I make, I filter through those lenses.

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And I pastor in a context where it's a lot of families.

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It's a lot of young families now, people moving here.

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I think a lot of people don't know the Dallas-Fort Worth area.

00:04:35.519 --> 00:04:39.360
You have you have kind of some mixing of cultures, right?

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You have you have Texas, you have words like Bible Belt, but then you also have the last 20 years since we've been here, the population, the the California people moving.

00:04:51.759 --> 00:04:51.839
Yeah.

00:04:51.920 --> 00:04:54.959
I mean, I heard a realtor the other day call it California, right?

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So I always love to just first start with leaders saying, you know, understand your audience.

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I think I think it's a something simple, but so profound.

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Like a lot of times I'll find, I'll, I'll find churches that are singing songs that they found on Instagram that work in New Zealand or or New York.

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Urban context.

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Urban context, but they they're not thinking about what are the songs, the people that I pastor, right?

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So you don't you don't go if if you're gonna it's the my master's degree is in missiology, and that's just the study of how to reach people, you know, people, ethnos, missions, ology, study of it.

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And one of the first things you learn is you have to understand your context.

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So you don't go to Mexico and preach in in French.

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Right.

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In Mexico City, there has to be a lot of French speakers somewhere in some pocket, but primarily the dominant, predominant communication is Spanish.

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You're like, why are you belaboring this?

00:05:55.360 --> 00:06:01.120
Um, I started honestly with a very pragmatic approach.

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I'm a pastor, a pastor in a suburban context.

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Ephesians, you know, when you look at the Bible, like like family is such a big topic.

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It starts with a family, right?

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It's filled with familial language.

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Abraham is not a spiritual guy, he's the father of our faith.

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Right.

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You are going to have a son, right?

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Right?

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It's like, so then Jesus, I don't know if people haven't ever thought about this, but like Jesus could have come any way he wanted.

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I mean, God, God's plan could have, it had to be in fulfillment of of the prophetic picture, but Jesus was born into a family.

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Right.

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Right?

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And so anyway, if you're gonna preach the Bible and then you have this myssiological context that it's really what they care about, then you end up down that path.

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So then what happens is you're just a local church pastor doing a family series.

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28.

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28 years old.

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You know, you're preaching on stuff that you know you you um you know, you guys at that time, 2002, you're two years old.

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Hanna's one.

00:07:13.439 --> 00:07:16.959
Lauren, Lauren doesn't exist, you know, there's no Laney for sure.

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She's way, yeah, way out there.

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And and you're and you're just trying to encourage people and help people.

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No doubt though, consistently the the just just like this podcast, y'all kept asking me to do a podcast, right?

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Like, do a podcast, talk, leadership thinking, but then we just you know, you and you guys, let's do one with with with with Hannah, you know, and then people are like, talk about that more, you know.

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And so so so it is what people care about the most, right?

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And it also is where they feel very ill-equipped.

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I mean, there's not a sociological study that doesn't show that that the core issues that we are usually trying to vote our way out of, structure our way out of, and govern our way out of are primarily from the breakdown of the family.

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For sure.

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And where would you get resources, books, help, counseling?

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I mean, people are looking too for for content in this specific area, and there's not a lot, honestly.

00:08:25.040 --> 00:08:35.279
Yeah, I mean, I think I think, you know, in my context, during COVID, we were doing a food drive at the church and we were putting turkeys and giving people Thanksgiving.

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And I found myself putting stuff in people's cars, and I started recognizing a pattern.

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And I've got our whole next gen team out there to to to be as a leadership modeling lesson, and I asked them, what do you see?

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And they didn't get it at first, and then it was like hockey equipment, baseball equipment.

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So I said, Do you understand they're at the church to get help with Thanksgiving, but they paid fifteen hundred dollars plus travel, plus a plus hotels for select baseball.

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Cause they're they because really when you talk about money being our God, I would say kids are worshipped above above money, right?

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So so what happens is when something is that central and important to you and valuable to you and you feel ill-equipped, and here's the real issue for me it's the place of the most pain.

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It's it just it it just family touches you at the deepest level, right?

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It does.

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And I think and so take them into our conversation.

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What was happening?

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Because you're like, dad, let's do another family, a little couple family sessions.

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And I'm like, okay, well, let me talk through this a minute.

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Well, just even to go back a little bit, even from that.

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So again, so much influx from even our viewership on the podcast asking about family.

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Hey, we we want to talk about this.

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This is something that that we care about.

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Clearly, even just in this area, we've experienced that.

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And so we start getting stuff on the schedule and planning for today.

00:10:13.120 --> 00:10:16.240
And today we we had an opportunity to say, I think I canceled the last one.

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Canceled a couple, but because I I'm I'm I want to be very clear.

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I would title our dialogue right now, The Reluctant Leader.

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Talk, talk about that.

00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:28.720
What do you what do you mean when you say reluctant leader?

00:10:28.960 --> 00:10:38.480
Like, so first of all, when you study scripturally, and this is just something for every person listening out there, people connect more to your failures.

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They they they when you are leading people, the more you are one of them, the more you have power to influence them.

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Under understanding your context, understanding the people that you're talking to.

00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:51.519
I think Maxwell said it.

00:10:51.600 --> 00:11:00.559
I don't know, he probably got it from somebody, but the point is you have to be close enough to them to relate to them, but ahead of them enough that they want to follow.

00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:00.879
Yeah.

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Right.

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But if you're so far ahead and so out of touch, then there's not many people that are gonna so because there's an emotive connection to he understands, he's been there, we're in this together.

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In a church context, what is the first question people are asking?

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Is there anyone like me?

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Right.

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So even as a communicator, you have to understand your audience.

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So I want to say in the area of family, like, I think along the way, God showed us a few things that we didn't originate.

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But like, you take about take like for you, when you turn 13 years old, we have a manhood ceremony.

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I bring all of these men around you.

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We we put touches, we refined it.

00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:54.000
I think, I think my brother-in-law first read about that from a book from a pastor in Arkansas called Raising Modern Day Knights.

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Yeah.

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And he and I together, we were raising kids, we started going, hey, let's do this.

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And so I helped him with your cousin.

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Older, a little bit older than me.

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They went first.

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And we've refined some things to make that powerful.

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We we started making a little book that has all the pictures and prophecies you used as a teenager.

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There's a quote unquote play.

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Model play, yeah.

00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:22.879
I mean, I I would say like doing young men manhood ceremonies, like I'm pretty anointed at it.

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Like I hardly do it.

00:12:25.120 --> 00:12:28.799
I I mean, I go, I, I, it's like a few of them now.

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I've done a lot.

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I I'm a professional.

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I could start a ministry.

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You could sell that.

00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:33.840
Yeah.

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No.

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I mean, I get them a big gift.

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Yes.

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I end up getting emotional because I'm thinking about the impact on their life.

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But if we just go into a podcast and I go, hey guys, let me give you a manhood.

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I feel like we should offer.

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Here are some things that are formidable moments for kids.

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And and here's, you know, what is this, what does it mean?

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Someone recently asked me because I talk about parenting the heart.

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Right.

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The danger of having a compliant child who's actually not there in their heart.

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So so we could talk about all that.

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And I think it's all valuable.

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Like, and people want anything you'll give.

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But for me in this area, people have so much pain.

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I can't tell you how many older families in our church will come up to me and go, I wish I would have been a part of milestone when I was raising my kids.

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So you have regret.

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You have pain.

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You have a kid that's struggling.

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We use the phrase, there's no pain like kid pain, right?

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You're only as happy as your unhappiest child.

00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:46.879
Like, so for me, one of my mantras is leaders, leaders tend to excel in areas, achievement, right, goals, drive.

00:13:47.200 --> 00:13:47.440
Okay.

00:13:47.919 --> 00:13:53.039
So someone listening to this, most of the time somebody listening to this is like, I want to get better.

00:13:53.279 --> 00:13:53.679
Right.

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That's they wouldn't listen, yeah, if they didn't have an aspiration to win, grow.

00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:00.799
I mean, I listen to several leadership podcasts.

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I listen to uh, I mean, I I've I I look at an assortment of stuff like how things are made.

00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:09.600
I think there's some real interesting podcasts out there, right?

00:14:10.639 --> 00:14:12.320
Like you can get into some like some intriguing stuff.

00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:14.480
A lot of mine are outdoors related.

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Is this going to become a fishing podcast?

00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:17.440
Whatever wants to know.

00:14:17.759 --> 00:14:26.159
I mean, I listen to a bunch of fishing podcasts of like, and sometimes it's so crazy too, because it's the most basic information of stuff.

00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:29.840
And like a lot of a lot of guys who are really good go, why would you waste your time?

00:14:30.080 --> 00:14:33.279
I think there's something about just in an area you want to be better.

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You feel like the more I expose myself, just being around it, around it and expose myself, I can get better, right?

00:14:40.240 --> 00:14:54.080
So most people listening are wanting to get better, so therefore, you probably excel in some areas, meaning you could be goal-oriented, you have an achievement, you have growth goals, you have sales goals, you have a plan, you have a church goal.

00:14:54.399 --> 00:15:00.879
In two major areas that is most common in dialogue today.

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The leader overestimates their capacity, ends up having soul burnout, you know, help in the area of burnout rhythm.

00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:09.039
Right.

00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:15.039
Like I could do 20 podcasts on uh daily rhythm, weekly rhythm.

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Here's the other area, family.

00:15:17.200 --> 00:15:17.600
Family.

00:15:17.919 --> 00:15:31.600
I traded, I traded success here, and this is not being critical, but I I I drove toward here and I didn't have the capacity to focus here.

00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:31.919
Right.

00:15:32.080 --> 00:15:33.759
You know, just bottom line, you know.

00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:38.159
And so And out of out of good intentions, I think, too.

00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:38.480
Yeah.

00:15:38.720 --> 00:15:40.639
People are like, I'm trying to win, provide.

00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:41.840
Provide 100%.

00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:42.799
And do that.

00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:56.159
And and and then the real reality is most of us don't want to replicate some of the pain in our lives, but the truth is as human beings, we tend to do what we know.

00:15:56.639 --> 00:16:03.039
So what happens is, or we overcorrect to become something, you know.

00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:11.679
I think sometimes some of the most controlling people in the area of family are in response to the chaos and brokenness of their background, right?

00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:12.480
Yeah, wow.

00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:17.919
So then I then I can flip to all the way over here, right?

00:16:18.080 --> 00:16:28.799
And so then there's the challenge of, you know why what's really challenging too is there's the challenge of honoring, you know, honoring your family members, right?

00:16:28.879 --> 00:16:28.960
Right.

00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:31.519
And then how do you talk to people about where you've been?

00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:36.000
So I don't want to get on here and go, well, my parents were this and they did that, here was all that.

00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:39.440
You want to be transparent, but you're not trying to dishonor.

00:16:39.840 --> 00:16:46.240
I hear people get on their thing and start talking very, very dishonorably about their parents in the name of transparency.

00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:48.240
Well, that's kind of like one of the Ten Commandments.

00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:49.039
Good.

00:16:49.279 --> 00:16:55.360
And so how do I talk transparently about here was some pain from my background with but and be honorable with my parents?

00:16:55.600 --> 00:17:00.159
How do I how do I get victory in some areas to talk about where I got victory?

00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:03.200
Because you want to kind of share from a place of victory.

00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:04.799
Where do people go?

00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:12.319
You know, I mean, good counselors, if you don't have some, there's there's there's no openings.

00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:14.079
And there's not there's no openings.

00:17:14.319 --> 00:17:15.279
Oh no, no.

00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:28.079
Just last week we were trying to find something for a guy that I've been working with, and the one guy that I've used in the past for different people and recommended an amazing counselor here in our area, booked full, no, no open spots.

00:17:28.319 --> 00:17:28.720
Right.

00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:37.279
Um on that topic though, so most most leaders have a pain point in the family area.

00:17:37.519 --> 00:17:37.680
Right.

00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:38.079
Okay.

00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:39.519
And and here's the point.

00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:43.279
And they feel like, you know what else leaders do?

00:17:43.519 --> 00:17:48.400
Gravitate toward where they succeed and pull away from where they feel like a failure.

00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:48.720
Yeah.

00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:53.440
So they you tend to pull back from it, which accentuates it a lot of times, right?

00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:56.880
And you feel like you can't win there, you know?

00:17:57.440 --> 00:18:02.480
And so I can't tell you how many times I've been in a discipleship group with business guys.

00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:11.440
And I mean, I I recently, the last men's development group I led, the guy people would probably know his name if I said, I mean, the guy's very successful.

00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:13.839
I mean, he speaks in front of crowds of people.

00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:28.079
He is, he's, he's like, but then he was struggling with connection with his wife, and I was like, tonight, with no intentions, just grab her hand and say, honey, what what you're going to, can I pray for you?

00:18:28.240 --> 00:18:28.559
Right.

00:18:28.960 --> 00:18:32.000
And he like broke out in hives.

00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:33.440
Oh my gosh.

00:18:34.240 --> 00:18:35.039
He's nervous.

00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:39.279
Boardrooms, crowds of people, hand, grab the hand of the wife.

00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:39.839
Scary.

00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:48.559
Did you know what most business guys one of their biggest intimidating things is is like being spiritual with your family, right?

00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:51.200
It's like, I don't know enough of the Bible.

00:18:51.279 --> 00:18:52.319
I don't feel spiritual.

00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:54.000
I don't feel like I'm a good prayer.

00:18:54.400 --> 00:18:58.799
Something that simple seems so far out of reach.

00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:02.640
So why am I a reluctant leader here?

00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:06.559
I was writing the first time I ever wrote on it.

00:19:06.640 --> 00:19:09.039
It's a lot different as a pastor, you're preaching on.

00:19:09.200 --> 00:19:09.599
Right.

00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:12.079
And you know the audience out there.

00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:17.200
You know, and I'm far enough down the road too where I've walked through my own thing.

00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:23.759
I've got friends that have struggled and stuff, and and and you know, there's they've had pains or challenges.

00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:29.519
You got, you know, in other words, you've lived some life, so you just have a you just have a grace for people.

00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:43.759
You know, and I remember though, when I moved from, I'm not just a local church pastor, I have a responsibility now to give away to the next generation of leaders some things.

00:19:44.079 --> 00:19:47.119
When you start feeling that responsibility, it's a weird feeling.

00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:47.759
Yeah.

00:19:48.079 --> 00:19:50.480
So why do we have this podcast?

00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:51.920
I don't need a podcast.

00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:53.599
I don't need anything to do, right?

00:19:53.759 --> 00:19:57.200
I don't, I don't, I don't receive compensation from the podcast.

00:19:57.359 --> 00:19:58.960
It's all part of our church.

00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:00.319
It's like we do so.

00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:05.359
This isn't about me trying to build a platform or why am I doing this?

00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:14.880
I feel a responsibility for how much people have invested in me, how much help I've had, how much God's grace in my life.

00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:17.839
I feel a responsibility to give it away, to give it back.

00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:21.279
That is my that is my true motivation to do it.

00:20:21.519 --> 00:20:27.279
And I remember when I started writing on family the first time, I had so much spiritual warfare around it.

00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:28.079
I remember that.

00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:34.880
I remember one night coming home from school, we were sitting there, and mom had made dinner, and we're all getting around the table.

00:20:35.119 --> 00:20:35.920
Crazy season.

00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:40.319
We're in high school, Laney's in elementary school, middle school, getting back from practice.

00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:47.279
We all sat around the table and you walk up with this script about this big, all printed out, and just you could see it in your eyes.

00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:49.039
You were wrestling through the content.

00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:51.279
You had some family chapters in there, I think.

00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:59.839
Parenting, marriage, and it was a book on identity, and I and I and it was it's a book I about identity called Who Am I?

00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:05.200
And and when I got to it, I thought one of the biggest things that shape our identity, right?

00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:08.160
One of the biggest things that can impact your identity.

00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:10.000
Why is this so painful?

00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:16.079
If I have a kid that struggles, I'm not just a father, am I a bad father?

00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:16.480
Right.

00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:24.079
Now I begin to identify as as that now is that a is that is that now a label, right?

00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:25.759
Do I have a prodigal?

00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:26.160
That's good.

00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:26.559
Right?

00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:29.119
Am I now the father of a prodigal?

00:21:29.279 --> 00:21:29.519
Right.

00:21:29.680 --> 00:21:35.200
Those are all identifying things, and it's and it's so deep to the core of what we care about.

00:21:35.440 --> 00:21:39.359
So I felt like I need to include it if I'm gonna talk about identity.

00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:47.680
But then I got ready, and I mean I had the I had the stuff, and I was working with my team, and we were editing the chapters, and I was like, I can't, I can't do it.

00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:50.240
You you I remember that night you almost pulled them out.

00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:50.960
You were almost done.

00:21:51.359 --> 00:21:59.680
And I actually went to you you guys because the other problem with talking about this is you feel like you're pushing.

00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.880
Putting your family in jeopardy or on a pedestal.

00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:10.720
And if I'm really being honest, this probably is not good for a pastor to say this, but I kind of feel like we don't believe in jinx.

00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:20.880
I mean, you know, what are those don't man steps on a crack and break his back, I mean, go under a ladder.

00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:22.799
We don't believe in that, I guess.

00:22:23.039 --> 00:22:25.119
We we we believe in the favor of God and not look.

00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:27.839
And some of some people out there would be like, don't speak it.

00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:32.400
If I'm really being honest, you're like, I don't want to jinx it.

00:22:32.559 --> 00:22:34.160
Like, let somebody else talk about it.

00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:34.960
Oh, for sure.

00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:38.400
You know, I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to put something.

00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:42.160
And still, you're still in the season, too.

00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:43.680
I'm still in the season.

00:22:43.759 --> 00:22:45.839
I still I have a high schooler now.

00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:46.079
Right.

00:22:46.319 --> 00:22:48.240
You guys are all at a different place.

00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:50.960
But I think what am I addressing?

00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:53.759
Why is this topic so hard?

00:22:53.920 --> 00:22:55.119
Why is it challenging?

00:22:55.279 --> 00:22:57.200
It's so core to who we are.

00:22:57.440 --> 00:23:00.079
It so presses, it involves other people.

00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:07.039
At the end of the day, relationships are the biggest blessing we receive from, but one of the hardest things to live in, right?

00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:10.000
And so it has a dynamic to it.

00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:15.519
And the bottom line is there are people out there going, just give me hope.

00:23:15.680 --> 00:23:24.960
Just give me hope that my kid's going to turn around or this could work, or if I have a prodigal, I've preached at multiple men's events in some of the largest churches in the country.

00:23:25.279 --> 00:23:27.759
You can't get a man to go to the altar.

00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:28.319
No.

00:23:28.640 --> 00:23:29.279
You know what I mean?

00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:33.599
Back when I, when I when I grew up in church, they sang 17 verses of just as I am.

00:23:33.680 --> 00:23:34.480
You walk down.

00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:38.720
They sang, if none go with me, I still will.

00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:43.440
It was like you had this kind of, I'm standing up for Jesus and I'm going to the altar.

00:23:44.640 --> 00:23:49.119
Nowadays it's like raise your hand, stick your pinky, check a box on a card.

00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:50.079
Blink twice.

00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:50.240
Yeah.

00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:58.000
If if I if I go there and I say, if you have a prodigal, we want to stand with you, the altar is full of men and they're crying.

00:23:58.160 --> 00:24:00.000
And you know what else I say to them?

00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:02.079
You felt like you're all alone.

00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:05.200
You felt like it's just you carrying that.

00:24:05.359 --> 00:24:07.039
And you know what else I say to them?

00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:08.000
And you know what?

00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:10.240
Your wife's kind of like, this is your fault.

00:24:10.400 --> 00:24:11.759
You felt like it's your fault.

00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:14.480
And you feel like you tried to do what you knew.

00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:17.279
Some of you did stuff that you shouldn't have done.

00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:29.039
But at the end of the day, that though, and there's guys at different levels of success, right, different levels of challenge, but that to them, the the release of that emotion.

00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:35.440
I think God does something when we pray, but a lot of it is I'm all the other guys start clapping.

00:24:35.680 --> 00:24:36.000
Right.

00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:40.640
And they and they feel this sense of I'm not in this by myself.

00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:44.640
And and so um And does anybody see me?

00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:46.000
Like, does anyone see that?

00:24:46.160 --> 00:24:50.799
And it feels almost so personal to even expose or who would you talk about?

00:24:50.960 --> 00:24:55.119
You're probably not gonna bring all of that up in a small group setting or with a friend.

00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:59.200
And so it I imagine, even from what you're saying, can feel isolating.

00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:03.039
It can feel I think it's harder to talk about in church today than money.

00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:03.680
Really?

00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:04.559
Oh, yeah.

00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:09.039
I preached this weekend on money and you get emails, and then I had some small group leaders, right?

00:25:09.119 --> 00:25:16.480
Like when, you know, money is definitely a God in our area, but when you and you start talking about tithing and you're dethroning people's gods.

00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:16.720
Right.

00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:18.000
Like Jesus said it.

00:25:18.079 --> 00:25:20.240
I didn't, he said, where your treasure is, your heart is.

00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:24.799
So you're touching idols when you start going, do you bring God your first fruits?

00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:25.519
Right.

00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:30.079
This may be a bold statement, and maybe it's true, and maybe it's not.

00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:36.960
But my perspective as a pastor of 30 years kids are a bigger god than money.

00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:37.599
Wow.

00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:40.480
Pip kids are a bigger idol in people's lives.

00:25:40.880 --> 00:25:44.720
Do you think that's changed, or do you think it's magnified in culture to the other?

00:25:44.960 --> 00:25:46.799
I think I think it goes through seasons.

00:25:46.880 --> 00:25:49.519
I think it's always been a big deal, right?

00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:50.079
Right.

00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:58.880
Um, Abraham taking Isaac.

00:26:00.160 --> 00:26:00.480
Right?

00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:16.240
Obviously it's a type in a shadow of Jesus, the son of God, and the provision, but like there's stuff we see the Bible get really into the weeds of like familial tensions, Jacob and Esau, sibling rivalries and different stuff, you know.

00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:20.160
But I think it's it goes through waves, right?

00:26:20.559 --> 00:26:36.400
But I think my generation, you know, you have kind of the baby boom, then you kind of have the what they called, you know, Gen X or whatever, where it was like light latchkey kids, you know, kind of like we hope they make it kind of deal.

00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:47.920
Then you kind of you move now today to helicopter parents, you know, like like it's very hard now to get parents to put their kids in children's church.

00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:49.920
I mean, I lead our young adult ministry.

00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:58.319
I had a conversation last weekend with parents, wanted to talk to me about something related to a young adult, like, you know, even beyond high school and adult.

00:26:58.640 --> 00:27:00.079
I mean, parents are still very involved.

00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:05.200
And again, it's all out of love and care for the kid, but very, very involved.

00:27:05.599 --> 00:27:06.000
Yeah.

00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:10.960
So, I mean, you know, we talk about these things like adolescence being extended, right?

00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:17.519
So kids, kids, more buffers, or, you know, failure to launch, or all of these things.

00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:23.279
And and I think, you know, I'm one of these people who sees the prism, right?

00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:28.960
So I'm able to see the different this, you know, if you value this, then sometimes you undervalue that.

00:27:29.119 --> 00:27:33.759
I think good theology is kind of a good ability to see grace and truth.

00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:34.319
Right.

00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:55.440
But there is no doubt that with the hyper focus on, you know, getting the right grade, getting the right score, getting the right school, you know, I mean, uh the the intensity of parental involvement, at least in my context, right?

00:27:55.759 --> 00:28:01.359
I joke and say my dad took me to kindergarten and he's like, this is Jeff, do whatever you want to him.

00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:05.279
In other words, I was in the opposite spectrum to where the pool at swimming lessons.

00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:06.960
Put me in the pool at swimming lessons.

00:28:07.039 --> 00:28:17.440
Like my parent, my parents were very much involved with me, were at my games and stuff, but they were not the solver of my problems, right?

00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:23.200
So they weren't that engaged with defending and teachers and you Jeff's being treated unfairly.

00:28:23.359 --> 00:28:26.000
They kind of thought the goal was to treat Jeff unfairly.

00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:26.400
Right.

00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:26.799
Yeah.

00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:28.000
Cause and you did that.

00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:33.440
I mean, you you tracked us, and you were all no, you you didn't want to track us.

00:28:33.519 --> 00:28:35.279
We're I didn't do homework.

00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:37.200
I'm not tracking.

00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:43.119
I'm very much learn how, you know, I'm we're training you to be an independent adult.

00:28:43.359 --> 00:28:50.880
So, and I and that now we're getting into some of the semantics stuff of things that I I have learned along the way.

00:28:51.279 --> 00:29:21.359
But I think the the point of the matter is the this assignment, like even me bringing my family, or I think we're gonna do some more episodes and have mom and Hannah and us talk family, but I think, and really, I think what's important for us to say this, like part of what you're motivated by is that some of our church too gets excited about bringing people to hear about let's talk family, but I need to couch it with what is what is the reluctant leader?

00:29:21.519 --> 00:29:38.559
Okay, the Bible is filled with with examples of you know, I'm going to anoint the next king, brother, brother, brother, is there another shepherd boy, brother David?

00:29:39.680 --> 00:29:40.799
Anoint him.

00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:50.960
Most of the time the stories in the Bible, not always, but most of the time is the unlikely, the unlikely or the more reluctant leader.

00:29:51.119 --> 00:29:56.000
And I would love to say there are some areas that you're not the reluctant leader.

00:29:56.240 --> 00:30:06.079
No, I and I admittedly, I there are areas where you could say, lead in this, and I'm like, hey, I I feel like I I really am pretty good there, and I could do that.

00:30:08.319 --> 00:30:19.359
The pain in this area, the um the assignment, the signing up for, does that mean everybody's gonna evaluate me all the time?

00:30:19.599 --> 00:30:19.839
Right.

00:30:20.319 --> 00:30:25.920
The hard part of pressing on the heart in the area to help people get better.

00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:26.160
Right.

00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:32.240
Because in any area of leadership, it's how you see it, it's how you think about it that changes your perspective.

00:30:32.400 --> 00:30:35.279
I know for me, I've had the benefit of having what do leaders do?

00:30:35.440 --> 00:30:37.039
They really change your mind, right?

00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:37.839
Oh, yeah.

00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:42.000
Well, I can't, I mean, my family is this because of this or because of that.

00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:44.880
And those are probably factors that contributed to it.

00:30:46.240 --> 00:30:59.519
But I think the tendency is to believe, well, they are because of only these reasons, but it could also come from some convictions, some thought processes, some perspectives, right?

00:30:59.920 --> 00:31:01.519
And not minimizing.

00:31:01.680 --> 00:31:03.200
I want to say, I want to say this.

00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:04.640
I feel like it's important.

00:31:05.359 --> 00:31:14.559
This podcast is not primarily about family, but I talk about it some because it is one of the things every leader cares about the most.

00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:23.279
And when you go out to lead whatever it is you're leading, which I want to remind everybody, if you're a parent, you're a leader.

00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:24.480
For sure.

00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:27.759
Because you have some people following you, hopefully.

00:31:27.920 --> 00:31:28.319
Right.

00:31:28.559 --> 00:31:38.160
But when you step into your assignment of leadership, the more stability you have in this area of your life increases your capacity.

00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:39.039
Yes.

00:31:39.920 --> 00:31:47.279
You're you're operating on less capacity if this area, we know, uh let's say you have an employee.

00:31:47.440 --> 00:31:47.759
Okay.

00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:51.759
They go through, they go through marital strain or a divorce.

00:31:52.480 --> 00:31:57.359
Your your the capacity of that employee is severely diminished.

00:31:57.519 --> 00:31:57.759
Oh, yeah.

00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:02.960
Because they're sure they're sitting in the meeting and they're like, okay, wait a minute, is she gonna file papers?

00:32:03.039 --> 00:32:03.839
Where are we at?

00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:04.640
This emotion.

00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:06.480
Then they they're getting texts from their kids.

00:32:06.640 --> 00:32:08.240
Are you and mom breaking up?

00:32:08.480 --> 00:32:10.400
That's draining emotional drain.

00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:12.720
That's draining emotion out of you.

00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:24.559
So I would say the team we work with, the people, our churches, the more we strengthen them in this area, the actually the more effective leaders they are.

00:32:25.039 --> 00:32:40.799
Not that it's comparable to your relationship with Jesus, but in the same sense, it's kind of what I hear you saying, it's the well from which you're able to lead from the stability of your home, obviously your personal relationship with Jesus, but even your marriage, your kids, like that allows you to lead at a different place.

00:32:40.880 --> 00:32:42.160
Is that kind of how you would say it?

00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:45.039
I love how Paul talks about it in Ephesians.

00:32:45.359 --> 00:32:54.480
And so he's like, you know, he starts talking about the church and he talks about the body and he talks about marriage, and he talks about you and your marriage and family and the church and this.

00:32:54.559 --> 00:32:58.880
And it's almost like you end up listening to him going, Paul, what are you talking about?

00:32:59.039 --> 00:32:59.279
Right.

00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:00.400
Are you talking about the church?

00:33:01.039 --> 00:33:02.559
And it's like, yes.

00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:03.440
All of it.

00:33:03.680 --> 00:33:05.440
Yeah, it's it's all intertwined.

00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:10.079
It's it's it's all it's all a very central part of who we are.

00:33:10.240 --> 00:33:13.279
I won't, I think it's important for me to say this.

00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:16.319
I'm the reluctant leader in this area.

00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:19.519
Why I didn't ask for the assignment.

00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:28.000
I feel responsible to the young families coming behind us to try to offer.

00:33:28.880 --> 00:33:36.400
I find mo I mean, let's let's say birth rates, right, marriage, why get married?

00:33:36.559 --> 00:33:38.160
If you get married, why have kids?

00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:41.680
Why, you know, like there's there's a cultural pressure, right?

00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:56.960
Like much of the topics that are that are fueling a lot of the heated debates of the culture are fueled around the the understanding of family, right?

00:33:57.039 --> 00:34:01.839
So all of that is so is so and so I feel a responsibility, right?

00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:07.039
But I would not probably choose to be the spokesperson.

00:34:07.279 --> 00:34:11.360
There's a lot of things you could ask me to choose to be, and I'd be like, Yeah, I feel pretty good.

00:34:11.440 --> 00:34:12.159
I'm gonna do that.

00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:20.159
But this is not an assignment because but I will say maybe this is this is my own trying to be self-aware.

00:34:20.239 --> 00:34:20.400
Right.

00:34:20.559 --> 00:34:22.239
It's just me trying to talk about this.

00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:22.719
Yeah.

00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:40.800
Maybe God's asked me to, because I can truly say with my friends or as a pastor or people, when they struggled with a kid or marriage, I've never looked down on them as you're less than me or you're worse than me or you whatever.

00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:43.199
All I've ever tried to do is go, how can I help?

00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:44.320
It's not a comparison.

00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:46.320
It's on a yeah.

00:34:46.639 --> 00:34:47.280
You know what I mean?

00:34:47.360 --> 00:34:51.760
I I I I can tell you a bunch of places that, you know, have I failed?

00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:52.400
Yes.

00:34:52.639 --> 00:34:53.920
Saying stupid stuff.

00:34:54.159 --> 00:34:58.400
I've messed up, I've can over be overboard the meeting before this.

00:34:58.559 --> 00:35:00.800
It's like you were like, okay, I don't get it.

00:35:01.039 --> 00:35:03.360
What it what does in the meeting before what we're talking about?

00:35:03.440 --> 00:35:07.840
This, you're like, we're doing a whole podcast about being a reluctant leader from my family.

00:35:08.079 --> 00:35:12.079
What is it that you felt like I was saying that you're like, I don't get?

00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:12.639
Well, yeah.

00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:13.679
What is this about?

00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:21.599
The whole way that this uh episode came about is we had this conversation again, people asking, wanting the topic.

00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:27.519
So I start putting together, you know, here's some things we could talk about, things we can share, stuff that we've done.

00:35:27.760 --> 00:35:40.480
Even the manhood ceremony you alluded to when I was 13, we talked about that, this, and you started pushing back on, you know, you I think maybe 17 times you said you don't get it.

00:35:40.800 --> 00:35:43.280
And finally I said, Well, you're gonna keep saying it.

00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:43.840
I don't get it.

00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:44.880
I guess I don't get it.

00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:53.280
Um and I think what I was trying to understand from you was the hesitancy around it, the the reserve.

00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:59.360
And honestly, you just mentioned it a second ago, but it reminded me of when we sat around the dinner table and we all talked about it.

00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:09.599
Like that's kind of what it took me back to of like, why is there such a because when it comes to discipleship, the gospel, that it's like, yeah, let's charge the mountain, write everything down on a sheet of paper.

00:36:09.760 --> 00:36:18.800
But in this area, it's like such a difficult thing to get you to share about it or to talk about it when we have such a group of people asking about it.

00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:21.519
So that's when you started talking about the reluctant leader thing.

00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:23.679
And I was like, help me understand that.

00:36:23.840 --> 00:36:27.199
I don't, I don't quite understand what you're talking about.

00:36:27.360 --> 00:36:33.519
But even what I hear you saying in this conversation right now, I mean, you allude to when I was 13.

00:36:33.760 --> 00:36:42.320
So when I'm 13, you get some men around, we go to somebody's house, they write a letter, prophesy, you know, just a cool moment, take pictures together, it's memorable.

00:36:42.559 --> 00:36:46.880
And that was a marking moment for me as a young person that impacted my life.

00:36:47.119 --> 00:36:57.519
Now, whatever that was, 15 years ago, 12 years ago, we could have gotten on, gotten a camera, sat around, talked about, hey, everyone should do this.

00:36:57.760 --> 00:36:59.840
But I mean, I still had a long time left.

00:36:59.920 --> 00:37:08.800
I was going into high school, and I mean, I loved God, served God, was a part of the church, but I made a lot of mistakes in high school and was still figuring it out.

00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:10.480
And we were working through stuff.

00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:42.480
And and I think what you've always done well is, and I can only speak to this from my standpoint as the as the kid, um, not necessarily the overarching communication pastoral side, but as the kid, even today, literally after this conversation, what I'm starting to realize is I think you were really intentional to protect us from being set up as the standard or or that we have it all together.

00:37:42.719 --> 00:37:44.400
Because the opposite is what you said earlier.

00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:46.480
Here, let's just tell them everything, every mistake.

00:37:46.559 --> 00:37:47.679
And that's not wise either.

00:37:47.760 --> 00:37:48.719
It's not honoring.

00:37:48.880 --> 00:37:58.559
Um Yeah, I mean, I don't I I think you can build a brand today, too, by just being like, we're all a dumpster fire and let me just let's have a podcast about dysfunction.

00:37:58.719 --> 00:38:00.559
Well, that's not giving anybody any hope.

00:38:00.719 --> 00:38:02.000
Hope you know what I mean.

00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:05.280
Like the Bible is pretty clear on a lot of these principles.

00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:14.960
I think what I'm really saying is that I'm actually using the family talks we're about to have to teach a leadership principle is what I'm doing.

00:38:15.039 --> 00:38:15.599
Yeah.

00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:18.239
Good communicators understand their audience.

00:38:18.400 --> 00:38:31.440
And on listening to this right now, I if we begin to pull out the statistics of people who have had abuse, people who have had their parents were divorced, the people who got saved.

00:38:31.840 --> 00:38:34.559
I'm starting a new generation of Christians.

00:38:35.440 --> 00:38:40.639
One of them was broken, one of them had mental things, or there was a health thing.

00:38:40.719 --> 00:38:42.559
There was there was something broken.

00:38:43.119 --> 00:38:43.920
They tried.

00:38:44.079 --> 00:38:48.400
I'll I'll tell you something that I see today that I want to say to some young couples.

00:38:49.599 --> 00:38:52.159
I grabbed a formula from somebody.

00:38:52.400 --> 00:38:54.960
They're only they're eating no red dye.

00:38:55.679 --> 00:38:56.000
Right.

00:38:56.239 --> 00:38:56.559
Okay.

00:38:57.280 --> 00:38:59.119
I think that's probably good.

00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:01.199
I'm I'm going to have my physical tomorrow.

00:39:01.360 --> 00:39:03.679
My doctor would probably say eat no sugar, no red dye.

00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:05.440
They brought a big piece of cake out for you.

00:39:05.519 --> 00:39:06.400
You said I can't eat that.

00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:06.960
I gotta get my blood.

00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:09.199
I got my blood drawn tomorrow, but I ate it anyway.

00:39:09.440 --> 00:39:14.559
As if today was gonna save you from the blood work will be carrot cake tomorrow.

00:39:15.039 --> 00:39:31.920
Okay, so but I think where people get reactive is when they hear someone say, if they eat no red dye, if you only take these oils or vitamins or this, if you do birth this way, if you do discipline this way.

00:39:32.079 --> 00:39:37.199
I mean, we were in an era where the discipline had to be with a rod, because the Bible says a rod.

00:39:37.360 --> 00:39:40.960
So the rod couldn't be the paddle or whatever discipline.

00:39:41.199 --> 00:40:01.360
You know, the principle is the principle is in the Bible that a parent's parent understands that rebellion is bound up in the heart of the child and he gives a parent the responsibility to bring discipline to deal with rebellion, same way God, the Bible says in Hebrews, if you don't receive his discipline, you're illegitimate, right?

00:40:01.679 --> 00:40:05.039
Because if you're not a son or a daughter, you see correction as rejection.

00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:13.039
But when you understand your role as a parent, then what you're really doing is bringing discipline out of love so that they learn how to submit to God more than they know how to submit to you.

00:40:13.199 --> 00:40:13.360
Right.

00:40:13.679 --> 00:40:20.320
And we get trapped in I use a dowel rod from Hobby Lobby or whatever it is.

00:40:20.559 --> 00:40:33.440
And then we begin to preach, prescribe, prescribe not biblical principles, biblical things that can help you, but formulas.

00:40:33.840 --> 00:40:41.280
And we as we have a tendency to do, and I have before too, major on the minors, pick the wrong battles.

00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:51.280
I mean, I know I know people that made a big deal out of red dye, but didn't make a big deal out of the heart who really regret making that the biggest deal.

00:40:52.239 --> 00:40:53.119
You know what I mean?

00:40:53.360 --> 00:40:54.320
And I have before.

00:40:54.400 --> 00:40:57.760
I always tell parents one of my biggest things is pick your battles, right?

00:40:58.079 --> 00:40:58.719
You know what I mean?

00:40:58.880 --> 00:41:03.440
And so I think you had somebody ask recently, you said you talk about parenting the heart.

00:41:03.519 --> 00:41:04.480
What are you really saying?

00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:07.840
Focus on the right things and pick your battles.

00:41:08.239 --> 00:41:12.880
Like make sure you really are discerning and asking for the Holy Spirit's help on what, you know.

00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:31.760
And so I I feel responsible to say those things, but really it's a bigger principle that someone out there listening to this pain, hurt, this, I tried this, and someone told me that was the end all be all, but it didn't produce.

00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:39.119
Right, you know, I have this or that, or I'm really burdened about this kid, or here's the deal.

00:41:40.639 --> 00:41:44.800
The bigger principle than we're about to go into family series and we're gonna do some podcasts.

00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:47.199
Here's the bigger principle for any leader listening.

00:41:47.440 --> 00:42:04.320
If you're not self-aware that those are the people listening to you on your team at your school, in your home, or wherever, you're not gonna be a very effective leader because they don't trust you if they don't feel like you have the heart to understand where they are.

00:42:04.559 --> 00:42:04.800
Right.

00:42:04.960 --> 00:42:05.840
Care about them.

00:42:06.079 --> 00:42:06.719
Exactly.

00:42:06.960 --> 00:42:13.679
No, that's that's so helpful and such a good frame for how to think about this topic.

00:42:13.840 --> 00:42:33.679
I thought one of the best things that you said in our conversation before this was you were talking about leaders that were a little bit ahead of you, that maybe had kids that you looked up to as y'all were starting a young family, and how even they ended up having challenges with kids and different things and maybe pulled away from the topic a little bit.

00:42:34.000 --> 00:42:39.039
But I think what you said too about, but I'm still glad that they gave us what they had at the time.

00:42:39.440 --> 00:42:41.920
I would say this to every leader out there.

00:42:42.159 --> 00:42:51.360
If if you if you went through a bankruptcy, then do you never teach on finances?

00:42:51.760 --> 00:42:52.639
You know what I'm saying?

00:42:52.800 --> 00:42:52.880
Right.

00:42:53.199 --> 00:43:00.239
If you, if you, if you, if you've never, if you've just so what we have to do is remember the word is the word, right?

00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:08.800
And so do we have a demand as a leader to have a sense of transparency, authentic, authenticity, honesty, and genuinousness.

00:43:09.039 --> 00:43:13.360
I'm not trying to create a category that gives excuse or license.

00:43:13.679 --> 00:43:17.760
We should be the people who say, follow me as I follow the Lord.

00:43:17.840 --> 00:43:18.000
Yes.

00:43:18.239 --> 00:43:19.039
Remember what I said?

00:43:19.280 --> 00:43:24.000
Close enough to relate, far enough ahead that they are inspired to want to follow you.

00:43:24.400 --> 00:43:24.559
Right.

00:43:24.800 --> 00:43:37.599
But on the other hand, what I see as a danger in leaders is that we have to personally have all the answers, experience.

00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:41.280
If we think that way, we're hindering the growth of our people.

00:43:41.360 --> 00:43:42.239
And let me tell you why.

00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:48.960
You want the number one reason the people in whoever listening right now is church or small group won't lead their own small group?

00:43:49.280 --> 00:43:49.440
Why?

00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:50.880
Number one reason.

00:43:51.519 --> 00:43:52.800
They don't feel adequate.

00:43:54.239 --> 00:44:00.320
I mean, I need to go to Bible school or take some more Sunday school classes, or you know, when I Right.

00:44:01.360 --> 00:44:03.360
You know why the dad doesn't pray with his family?

00:44:04.639 --> 00:44:05.760
Doesn't feel adequate.

00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:08.880
He's like, I cussed everybody out at work today.

00:44:09.119 --> 00:44:11.039
You know, so I can't pray.

00:44:11.840 --> 00:44:27.360
So you we have to build in leadership a safe environment to go, we're all growing, we're learning, we're not minimizing character, but we can't present this front that to lead means you have to be perfect, which we know nobody is.

00:44:27.920 --> 00:44:29.519
You know what you begin to produce?

00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:31.840
You have to present as perfect.

00:44:32.320 --> 00:44:34.239
So all I talk about is what I'm perfect at.

00:44:34.559 --> 00:44:36.320
What I do good at, yeah, what I win at.

00:44:36.960 --> 00:44:42.480
And so, but the only way we can win at the stuff we're losing at is talk about the stuff that everybody's struggling with.

00:44:42.719 --> 00:44:43.440
And nobody wants to lose the thing.

00:44:43.920 --> 00:44:49.599
And I I feel in my season of ministry, this is in jeopardy in the American church.

00:44:49.920 --> 00:44:56.079
I mean, you have young people that haven't pastored or parented teenagers getting very dogmatic.

00:44:56.320 --> 00:44:56.559
Right.

00:44:56.800 --> 00:44:58.320
I've done that before too.

00:44:59.199 --> 00:45:05.119
I Brandy and I, we we there was a in our day, there's a book, and I and I love some of the concepts, right?

00:45:05.199 --> 00:45:08.639
It really centers around the fact that you can't make your kid God.

00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:13.440
It really helps if you don't, because then they end up not being able to live up to that.

00:45:13.599 --> 00:45:13.840
Right.

00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:26.480
And so the principle is that we're all under God and and and really it there's some just good principles, but it it is where it literal rod and some of these prescribed things that get a little legalistic.

00:45:26.719 --> 00:45:27.039
Yeah.

00:45:27.519 --> 00:45:36.880
And and we, by God's grace, glean some things that felt like they were helpful.

00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:40.000
Uh babies.

00:45:40.480 --> 00:45:45.280
Do you allow them to feed on demand over and over?

00:45:45.440 --> 00:45:46.239
They cry a lot.

00:45:46.400 --> 00:45:57.039
You know, like we we found that medically and spiritually, and for our home, beginning to allow that kid to get on a schedule helps the whole family.

00:45:57.440 --> 00:46:10.320
But to do that, you have to you have to have some discipline with some things, and you also have to be willing to understand that every time a baby cries, it's not because they want to eat, but it's sometimes they're getting energy out and they just cry.

00:46:11.360 --> 00:46:12.079
That's one of them.

00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:13.920
Did you get up and pre-set on a Sunday?

00:46:14.079 --> 00:46:18.639
I did not because I I was very not much part of the process.

00:46:19.599 --> 00:46:23.599
So I was I was in that place, I was in the gift of exhortation.

00:46:23.840 --> 00:46:24.000
Right.

00:46:24.159 --> 00:46:25.840
Just encouragement to cheerleading.

00:46:26.159 --> 00:46:26.880
I was implementation.

00:46:27.039 --> 00:46:29.760
I was not an implementation, I was exhortation.

00:46:30.320 --> 00:46:31.199
Inspiration.

00:46:31.360 --> 00:46:32.159
You guys can do it.

00:46:32.480 --> 00:46:40.159
The best thing about having kids older with younger kids is then you can make the older kids do all the stuff you don't want to do too.

00:46:40.239 --> 00:46:41.280
That is one thing I'll recommend.

00:46:41.599 --> 00:46:45.679
Clean, cook, I'll make Hannah and all them know change diapers for Landy and all that.

00:46:45.920 --> 00:46:47.360
You changed a lot of diapers in your day, huh?

00:46:47.519 --> 00:46:47.760
I did.

00:46:47.840 --> 00:46:53.360
I'm I'm telling you what, if I'm if there's one area I'm not a reluctant leader, it would be like on a diaper class.

00:46:54.000 --> 00:46:54.639
That's not true.

00:46:55.440 --> 00:46:57.679
No, I'm I I don't do throw up.

00:46:57.840 --> 00:47:00.960
No, and I don't do poop and that I just can't do it.

00:47:01.039 --> 00:47:03.280
It just it it honestly robs my anointing.

00:47:03.360 --> 00:47:03.519
Yeah.

00:47:04.800 --> 00:47:08.000
You're gifting when you take your spiritual gifts assessment, it wasn't on there.

00:47:08.079 --> 00:47:10.719
So I didn't get it's not in my strengths finder.

00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:11.039
Yeah.

00:47:11.360 --> 00:47:11.519
Yeah.

00:47:11.599 --> 00:47:13.760
So I can't mom, she had it strong.

00:47:14.079 --> 00:47:16.880
Oh, yeah, it was high in hers, real high, thank God.

00:47:17.199 --> 00:47:28.639
Well, and so I think what I was going back to was we were using some principles from here, and and I was I was 25, pastor in a church in a different context.

00:47:28.800 --> 00:47:29.119
Yeah.

00:47:29.360 --> 00:47:36.719
We looked up, and what we were doing by way of principle, it spread through our church that this is the only way to do it.

00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:42.559
So I think as leaders, sometimes we're also reluctant to go, here's some stuff that's helped us.

00:47:42.800 --> 00:47:47.199
I'm gonna tell you, your manhood ceremony was a significant, significant moment in your life.

00:47:47.280 --> 00:47:50.400
It was and the book we made helped you in some key moments.

00:47:50.639 --> 00:47:52.400
I put a vision deal on your wall.

00:47:52.559 --> 00:47:53.840
Caleb, look at this vision.

00:47:53.920 --> 00:47:55.280
Here's what God has for you.

00:47:56.000 --> 00:47:58.559
But what could happen is then people go, What's that?

00:47:58.639 --> 00:47:59.440
Is that a formula?

00:47:59.679 --> 00:48:00.320
Is that the thing?

00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:00.719
Right.

00:48:00.960 --> 00:48:05.519
Really, at the end of the day, why was manhood and womanhood ceremony important for us?

00:48:05.840 --> 00:48:21.119
Is that we believe along the way that people move in life through heart, revelation, spirit, and connection over pragmatic things.

00:48:21.280 --> 00:48:23.280
That's one of the root things about me.

00:48:23.440 --> 00:48:23.599
Right.

00:48:23.840 --> 00:48:26.000
I'm I'm a realist when it comes to people.

00:48:27.119 --> 00:48:32.159
We study all this stuff, we teach all this stuff, we give five points, but the truth is people do what they want to do.

00:48:32.480 --> 00:48:48.480
So you feel like it's more about heart, just having moments where you're intentionally investing, adding value, loving, but then some people can take that and go, what exactly and what card, and what how many did you have, and this, and what did the book look like?

00:48:48.639 --> 00:48:50.320
Like, is that kind of what you're getting at?

00:48:50.400 --> 00:48:57.440
It's more about here's the bottom line everybody, everybody would say that I love my family.

00:48:57.840 --> 00:48:58.400
Right.

00:48:58.960 --> 00:49:00.480
That's why it's so painful.

00:49:00.800 --> 00:49:02.400
I love my family.

00:49:02.800 --> 00:49:10.159
The problem is for your family to feel that love, and you say you love them as two different things.

00:49:10.400 --> 00:49:10.559
Right.

00:49:10.800 --> 00:49:16.239
They're gonna receive and give you give and receive love different, different seasons require different love.

00:49:16.880 --> 00:49:19.280
So what what was manhood ceremony?

00:49:19.440 --> 00:49:33.840
It was me having a context where you felt my love for you and belief in your future, which helped me in the harder things because I had I had a tank there of this moment you went back to.

00:49:34.239 --> 00:49:36.880
These people love me, they they value me.

00:49:36.960 --> 00:49:39.599
That anything they say to me is built out of this.

00:49:39.920 --> 00:49:40.239
Right.

00:49:40.800 --> 00:49:41.440
It was a moment.

00:49:41.599 --> 00:49:46.400
It's not a formula, yeah, but it it enforces something that is more hard.

00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:47.360
A value, yeah.

00:49:47.599 --> 00:49:47.840
Right.

00:49:48.000 --> 00:50:00.480
And so that's why when I start talking about family, and and even this session for you and I, yeah, it's really it's really more of like, how do you think about leadership?

00:50:00.719 --> 00:50:01.199
Yeah.

00:50:01.440 --> 00:50:02.079
You know?

00:50:02.320 --> 00:50:10.559
And and so um, well, I know, I know people are gonna appreciate the the vulnerability, the transparency.

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And I think this conversation really about the reluctant leader, leadership in general, but also your own journey as it pertains to this topic.

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I think people are gonna feel seen, heard.

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Um, and and even like the guys at the men's event, right?

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Like I'm so glad somebody said that.

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I can identify with that.

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Um, and so I'm excited for this episode.

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We're gonna have uh mom and Hannah join us, I think, in a second.

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And so this uh next episode's coming out shortly.

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Make sure that you tune in to see that as well.

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I want to say thank you for checking out this episode of the Lead to Win podcast.

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I want you to know that I love and my team loves getting this kind of content into your life so it can help you lead and win at what matters most.

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So I'd love for you to do me a favor like, comment, especially subscribe if you would, so that we can make sure that we're able to get to you some of the things that are gonna help you lead to win.