March 17, 2026

The Legacy Question Every Leader Must Answer | Coach Tom Mullins

In this powerful episode of Lead to Win, Pastor Jeff Little sits down with leadership coach and pastor Coach Tom Mullins for a conversation on the one thing every leader must protect—integrity.

Drawing from decades of experience developing leaders, Coach Tom shares the lessons that shape a lifetime of influence. From defining your legacy to calling out the champion in others, this episode is packed with practical wisdom for leaders who want to finish well, not just start strong. You’ll discover why integrity is the foundation of lasting leadership, how to build a life that outlives you, and what it really means to lead with honor in every season.

If you’re serious about becoming the leader God has called you to be, this conversation will challenge and strengthen you.

TIMESTAMPS
0:00 - Legacy Starts With Integrity
0:25 - Fishing Trips And McDonalds Laughs
5:00 - Why Coaching Principles Transfer Everywhere
8:05 - Coach Not Boss Leadership Model
12:35 - Building A Coachable Curious Culture
17:45 - Recruiting Team Depth And Developing Leaders
23:40 - Keeping Score And Staying In Growth
24:05 - Integrity Under Pressure In Public Life
30:32 - Crisis Preparation And The Four As
37:01 - Final Charge Call Out Champions

LEAD TO WIN RESOURCES
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Information on Milestone Church: https://milestonechurch.com/

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00:00 - Legacy Starts With Integrity

00:25 - Fishing Trips And McDonalds Laughs

05:00 - Why Coaching Principles Transfer Everywhere

08:05 - Coach Not Boss Leadership Model

12:35 - Building A Coachable Curious Culture

17:45 - Recruiting Team Depth And Developing Leaders

23:40 - Keeping Score And Staying In Growth

24:05 - Integrity Under Pressure In Public Life

30:32 - Crisis Preparation And The Four As

37:01 - Final Charge Call Out Champions

WEBVTT

00:00:00.479 --> 00:00:05.919
If I had one final message, I would say it all starts with your personal integrity.

00:00:06.240 --> 00:00:08.240
Tom Maxwell asked me an instant question.

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If you had to put in one short sentence your legacy, what would you want it to be?

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My grandfather's a man of integrity, arts your integrity, keep growing, hang with the champions.

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I want to be known as a man of honor, a man of integrity, to call the champion out and others.

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Love it.

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Coach, it's just such a joy to be here with you.

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Every time I'm with you, I don't know, it just lights up my life.

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Hey, buddy, I apologize.

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I didn't bring a Big Mac for you, though.

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I know that's all I fed you when you were in Florida, but hell, hello, come on.

00:00:41.119 --> 00:00:43.679
Okay, so coach is you know my mentor.

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You're like my spiritual father.

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We're together multiple times throughout the year.

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And we're talking about one.

00:00:49.679 --> 00:00:51.840
I want to give a couple of background stories.

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Okay.

00:00:52.799 --> 00:00:53.119
Okay.

00:00:53.679 --> 00:00:57.679
One was that I, you and I love the outdoors.

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Yes, we do.

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I I have this special passion for bass fishing that I've been trying to pull you in.

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You do some, you've done some salmon, you've done some deep sea, but like I'm trying to pull you over in this.

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And so Florida is known for like bass fishing.

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Lake Okeechobee, baby.

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Lake Okeechobee.

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I'm like, coach, I've been dreaming.

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I get there and I show up that morning, and you have a guy getting live bait, coach.

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I'm naive.

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I was a rookie at this thing, you know.

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And so I'm like, Coach, artificial lures.

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I had some worms, but that wasn't.

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You had a can of worms.

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Now, the other part to the story is we were there for three days.

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And the first morning, you you had you had you drove us down there, you, you had me taken care of, and you took me for breakfast to McDonald's.

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Well, they make a great little breakfast family egg sandwich.

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I said, you know, we got different options, pancakes, different stuff.

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Then at lunch, we went back to McDonald's.

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It's true.

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Okay.

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The fourth trip to McDonald's, Coach.

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I'm like, are we going to Peter Hamlet?

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What are you gonna go?

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We don't even have a steakhouse there.

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You know what I'm talking about?

00:02:07.599 --> 00:02:10.479
Okay, you know, McDonald's like top of the food chain in that area.

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What is one of your staple items?

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Let's be honest.

00:02:13.280 --> 00:02:14.879
You don't have a wide palate, Coach.

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I mean, people don't realize this.

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How old are you now?

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I'm 80.

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80 years old.

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80 years young.

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And and French fries has been the key.

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One of the major keys.

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A diet of hamburgers, French fries, and Krispie Kreme donuts will give you long life and strength.

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It's vitality?

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It's it, maybe.

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It's it.

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So I'm gonna tell one more funny story.

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You and I we were we were bird hunting, okay?

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And uh so ducks and different stuff.

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So we we we you know you camo's important, right?

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And I and you had some like old camo that was like from like you know, army, navy or whatever.

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It's like like from it was like handed down from past wars.

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It's probably a two or three generations old.

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It's like the pattern and the style.

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And I was like, Coach, I'm gonna get you some upgraded stuff because like everything, there's some new kind of in vogue camo, and I just want to get you some.

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By the way, son, you have taken me to a new level.

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I've taken you to a new spot.

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That's what that's called reverse mentoring, right?

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And so you're offering, and I'm like, coach, I'm bumping you up.

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So then I got you looking so good, you felt sorry for me.

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You like, I want to upgrade your stuff.

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Right.

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And so you're like, I want to get you something.

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I was like, well, coach, you don't have to.

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And he's like, no, I'm going to.

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And so we were there at the little lodge and we're hanging out.

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And so you're you're just like, well, what size do you wear?

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And I looked at you and I was like, well, I think I can wear your pants.

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The reason I asked that is because I wear an XL and I thought, surely you wore a double X-ray.

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You wore a double X for you.

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You're putting a double X on me.

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And so I said, Well, coach, I can wear your pants.

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Of course, it's just us guys there.

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So you take your pants and I and I put them on, they button just fine.

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And you look at me and go, oh my goodness, I've gotten fat.

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You and I weigh the same weight, but you're about four inches taller than me.

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I'm the fat guy.

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So I'm I'm I moved up from one of the executives up to a vice president's role in the big man's club.

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But you know what?

00:04:20.639 --> 00:04:22.319
I got you your lead to win pullover.

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Look at that.

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It's dark.

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Big man looking good.

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A guy told me the other day.

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By the way, black is slimming.

00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:27.839
No, that's what I'm saying.

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Big men don't wear other things than dark color.

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Don't wear the pastels.

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Pastels.

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Certain pastor friends of ours wear the pastels and the light blues.

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No, no, no.

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So you know the old statement never ask a big man if he went on Ozympic.

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He just got a darker shirt.

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Okay.

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By the way, before we get started, I want to say I love you.

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I love you so much.

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Appreciate being with you.

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Appreciate all that God's doing in you and through you and at Milestone Church and Lead the Wind uh ministry.

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It's just it's just blowing it off the charts what God's doing.

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And I'm honored to be with you today.

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So I'm sorry.

00:05:04.800 --> 00:05:18.879
Well, coach, like I I what I love about this format, so you know, we have we actually have pastors, leaders, but we also are getting, I I got uh an email from a teacher the other day from a superintendent, a coach.

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You know, you think about uh business leaders and and people in school systems, like they're managing relationships, parents, people.

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So what I love about this format is you and I, we spend so much time together.

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We we love being together, we have the greatest time, but we also will have, you know, uh out fishing or out at a camp or whatever we might be doing, a ministry trip.

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We've done some of those.

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Well, we get to sit at night and I get to I get to pull things from you.

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One thing I really respect about you too is we'll be in the room.

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Here you are, you know, for those who don't know you, you you were a football coach, then you know, really uh an amazing thing happened on a trip to Israel.

00:06:03.680 --> 00:06:06.959
I mean, you had this encounter with Jesus where he called you to be a pastor.

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You're you're like 40 years old, I think, at that time, right?

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About 38.

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38 years old.

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So so here you make this this big step.

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You you start Christ Fellowship, of course, your son Todd now leading that, multiple campuses, 30,000 people, just amazing.

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But you know, I I'm able to glean from you.

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What I love about you is you also though love putting yourself around younger leaders because we'll many times I'll ask a coach, share something with everybody, but then you find you're always there too, learning and gleaning, and you're still learning at 80 years old.

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I I I think that's that's part of leadership.

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Uh you're always learning, you're always you never arrive.

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And I'm gleaning so much from you and others in your your area of uh of life right now in ministry.

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Um God's showing you things and and revealing things to you, and you're you're finding things out through your own implementation of practice.

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And I love to learn from you and what you're doing, what God's doing at milestone, what God's doing through your lead-to-win conferences and interactions and mentoring of leaders.

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And leadership principles, they they transfer to all levels.

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Yeah.

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I I came out of education, uh, I came out of coaching, and I realized that leadership principles I learned in coaching transferred right over into ministry.

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Right.

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And the things we're learning our leadership principles in ministry transfer right back over into the business world.

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Right.

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So that's what's great about it.

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It's it's really a lot of times I think we segment.

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Obviously, there's a there's a calling in ministry that is unique, but we're still all called.

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And I do believe that there's not as much separation between the the football coach, the pastor, the business leader, the the teacher.

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Like we're all working through how to help others get better, build a good team.

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I mean, a lot of the stuff you talk about in your in your own.

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Well, you know, the the very first chapter in in my book, uh Coach's Playbook, is is is talks about how to lead like a coach.

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Yeah.

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Uh, because if we're not careful uh in business or whatever we are, we'll fall into the boss mentality.

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And there's a big I I contrast like five major things between how a coach would lead versus how a typical boss or leader would lead in an organization.

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And you know, we we don't hire people to do a job, a boss does that.

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Right.

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Coaches recruit people to be a part of a team.

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There you go.

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So we start right off with 18 concepts, you know.

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So it in and it's like, you know, there's uh we're demanding a certain level of performance out of you from a boss's perspective, whereas coaches, we're trying to inspire and call the champion out of you so you will produce your very best.

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That's right.

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Not only for yourself, but for the organization.

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And there's a contrast, but that fits whether I'm a business leader, I'm a ministry leader, I'm an educator.

00:09:06.080 --> 00:09:06.240
Right.

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It all works.

00:09:07.519 --> 00:09:17.519
Yeah, so just to kind of go back, you know, a lot of us that that love you so much, myself, you know, just you're a spiritual father and a coach to me.

00:09:17.679 --> 00:09:23.679
We we actually really have been wanting you to put some of these things on paper.

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And and this book, the coach's playbook, um, available at Amazon.

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We're we're we at lead the the lead to win resourcing.

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See, one of the things we feel called to do is resource leaders, and we want to make sure this is available for us to resource anyone out there listening in the the lead to win space.

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But I I really keyed in on when and I got the book, the book all the by the way, too.

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I was just telling you, it's so nice, man.

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It's just real coffee, coffee table kind of coach's playbook, 10 game-changing lessons for young leaders.

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Your grandfather, which you've also written another book about wisdom from him, yeah, we're not focusing on that, but if someone wanted another resource, that's really good.

00:10:06.799 --> 00:10:17.039
But you talk about your grandfather who was a pastor, yes, and he was a huge influence on you and really shaped you.

00:10:17.279 --> 00:10:17.759
Yes, he did.

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And then now you step into coaching, then you step into pastoring, and they're just there wasn't like a coach's playbook out there with 42 years ago when we launched into ministry, Maxwell wasn't writing any books on leadership.

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There wasn't books written for really help us navigate.

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Uh, you know, I planted the church and had no clue what I was doing.

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You know, I'm fumbling around trying to figure out what to do, trying to figure out what works, what doesn't work, you know, what can I carry over?

00:10:49.120 --> 00:10:58.080
Uh you you I grew up in a very traditional model of church and um never was in a church Jeff of more than maybe 100 to 150 people.

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Right.

00:10:58.639 --> 00:11:12.000
So I didn't really understand the dynamics, but finally I came to the realization, wait a minute, uh what worked for me in coaching will work here in ministry if I learn how to apply that.

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Because it's all about calling the champion out of people.

00:11:15.200 --> 00:11:25.519
Yeah, it's all about getting the the team aligned in where their strengths are, celebrating them, and um, and then we have a common goal that we're trying to achieve.

00:11:25.679 --> 00:11:33.759
So we came up with a mission statement, we came up with our goals, came up with our objectives, and I I put together a game plan, and just like I would in coaching.

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Yeah.

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And I had nobody there to coach me.

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I wish I had somebody to come along and say, yeah, son, that's good.

00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:39.440
No, don't go down that trail.

00:11:39.519 --> 00:11:41.600
You're gonna have to back up on that because I had to back up on that.

00:11:41.759 --> 00:11:43.039
You had a little bit of trial and error, dude.

00:11:43.279 --> 00:11:43.759
Oh my gosh.

00:11:45.679 --> 00:11:48.240
But you know the one good thing about being a coach?

00:11:48.399 --> 00:11:53.120
Uh, because every week your score is posted on a on a scoreboard.

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Yeah.

00:11:53.440 --> 00:11:56.159
So everybody knows your your wins and your losses.

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And uh you had to then do a press conference after your wins and losses.

00:12:01.600 --> 00:12:04.399
So you gotta be very open about it and go.

00:12:04.559 --> 00:12:07.120
So that actually helped me to go to our people.

00:12:07.279 --> 00:12:08.639
Well, that didn't work.

00:12:09.759 --> 00:12:14.559
Hey, I believe God's leading us, but I'm gonna, if that doesn't work, hey, uh, well, that didn't work, gang.

00:12:14.639 --> 00:12:15.279
But you know what?

00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:16.720
We're gonna get a new game plan.

00:12:16.799 --> 00:12:21.360
We're gonna call, we're gonna call an Omaha, you know, paint man in Omaha, we're gonna change the play.

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Audible.

00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:24.639
And we're gonna call it an Audible and go run this play.

00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:36.879
So our people kind of grew up with that atmosphere, and then we tried to build into our culture, uh, Jeff at Christ Fellowship from the very beginning, an attitude of that we're all um coachable.

00:12:37.039 --> 00:12:37.360
Right.

00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:39.519
And I I want to remain coachable.

00:12:39.679 --> 00:12:40.320
That's so good.

00:12:40.559 --> 00:12:49.360
And if you create a culture where everyone's coachable, then you're not correcting people all the time, you're coaching people all the time.

00:12:49.679 --> 00:12:55.440
So you you actually, I mean, this book's at Amazon, we're gonna make it available through Lead2Win.

00:12:55.679 --> 00:13:03.279
Uh, you know, John Maxwell is your good friend and was part of the teaching team at Christ Fellowship, and so they're publishing company.

00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:09.519
So this this book, but you you give the subtitle 10 game changing lessons for young leaders.

00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:13.919
So what you're really doing is you're saying there was a void there.

00:13:14.080 --> 00:13:14.320
Oh, yeah.

00:13:14.639 --> 00:13:27.120
When you when you were a young leader, you had your grandfather, you had but you really had to like and so what you're wanting to do and is is is deposit something in the generations coming behind you, exactly.

00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:29.360
Which I think is beautiful.

00:13:29.919 --> 00:13:32.080
That they could grab a hold of something.

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And and I'm just praying for that, coach, because you've been so impactful in my life.

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I'm just praying for this book.

00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:48.960
I'm just praying that it just gets in the hands of those young leaders, that that it that that becomes a deposit for them, that it's game changing.

00:13:49.360 --> 00:13:54.480
But you said something that I think that I I think is so cool.

00:13:56.159 --> 00:14:03.679
Being coachable, being being being that and I I've been recently teaching our team a lot on curiosity.

00:14:04.320 --> 00:14:06.240
Because I think those go together.

00:14:06.399 --> 00:14:17.120
You know, coachable people are curious, like there's no replacing that that player, that student, that business leader who's like coachable and curious.

00:14:17.279 --> 00:14:19.840
Yeah, you know, because you always want to get better and you always want to learn.

00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:20.159
Yeah.

00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:30.000
So one thing I learned uh that was so uh in coaching, I would go every year to hear the national championship coaches wherever they were speaking at clinics.

00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:31.600
I wanted to learn from the best.

00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:32.240
I love it.

00:14:32.399 --> 00:14:34.399
I wanted to see what I could learn from them.

00:14:34.639 --> 00:14:41.759
I remember when Ohio State won a championship years ago, I went up and spent uh three days with the coaching staff in spring practice.

00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:46.559
I wanted to know everything, how they taped their ankles to what they did, everything.

00:14:46.720 --> 00:14:47.759
What can I glean?

00:14:47.840 --> 00:14:48.720
What can I take back?

00:14:48.879 --> 00:14:52.159
I went to the Cincinnati Bengals training camp, took my whole staff.

00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:52.960
I want to learn.

00:14:53.120 --> 00:14:53.919
Here we go.

00:14:54.159 --> 00:15:00.159
And um, when you keep that tone and that attitude, then you're always hungry to learn.

00:15:00.639 --> 00:15:05.600
I I'm I'm here this week with you at your Learn to Lead conference.

00:15:05.759 --> 00:15:07.679
I'm hungry to learn.

00:15:08.080 --> 00:15:10.080
I brought my notepad, I'm ready to go, baby.

00:15:10.159 --> 00:15:30.799
I'll be taking intense notes, and I'm gonna be looking at what I can do, what can I apply, what can I learn, what can I reinforce to be a better coach and mentor myself, and um make a deposit into the emerging generations that they will be able to carry on and deposit into the generations coming behind them.

00:15:31.120 --> 00:15:39.759
My grandfather and my great-grandfather deposited this passion for God and for Christ and for the church into me.

00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:48.559
Because even when you were a coach, you were interim, you and you and Miss Donna were uh always a part of church, y'all were serving, leading music, whatever it might be.

00:15:48.639 --> 00:15:52.799
You were you were engaged in your local church even when you were coaching, which isn't easy.

00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:54.480
We understood that completely.

00:15:54.720 --> 00:16:03.279
Matter of fact, I gotta tell you, I got a uh I got an email uh about two months ago from a former player of mine that played for me in college.

00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:06.159
And uh 50 years ago, can you I can't believe it.

00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:08.320
I can't I can't believe I'm this old.

00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:09.759
I unbelievable.

00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:11.919
But I just got to give me great life.

00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:12.240
I love it.

00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:13.600
I I want to have the spirit of Caleb.

00:16:13.679 --> 00:16:19.840
You know, he was 85 when he said to Joshua, hey, give me my promise back when I was strong as I was when I was 40.

00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:20.879
Give me the high country.

00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:21.519
So there you go.

00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:23.919
I'm claiming the spirit of Caleb on me in Jesus' name.

00:16:24.080 --> 00:16:24.399
Amen.

00:16:24.559 --> 00:16:28.240
But, anyways, he he emailed me and he said, Coach, I want to thank you.

00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:31.600
I don't think I've ever thanked you for leading me to Jesus.

00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:32.240
Wow.

00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:43.840
As I was reflecting over my life, it's made all the difference in my life, my marriage, my family, my business, is because you led me to Jesus and I never thanked you.

00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:45.840
When I read that, I wept.

00:16:46.480 --> 00:17:06.960
I just wept realizing, you know, what a blessing to know that in some way, because I know I was very intentional, even as a coach, to look out for the welfare, the spiritual welfare of the men that I had under me uh in the program and tried to model the right example and talk to them about what it meant to have a personal relationship with Christ.

00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:09.599
I had the freedom to do that at the college where I coached.

00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:14.240
And um, but it's always been an integrated part of who we are.

00:17:14.559 --> 00:17:22.000
And I think my grandfather modeled that passion for me, and I couldn't escape that passion for the things of God and all of that.

00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:30.079
What I wish I'd had more coaching on was how to really, in the church world, how to really build the church.

00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:34.480
And it took me a while to understand that I'm not Superman.

00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:45.759
You've got to have key partnerships, you've got to have key relationships, you gotta learn how to empower your teams, you gotta learn all these principles that we we kind of unpack a lot of these in the book.

00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:46.319
Right.

00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:47.519
What would you say?

00:17:47.680 --> 00:17:56.240
I mean, I I hear you grabbing some of these principles, but you're you're you're we're catching the idea of be a coach, not a boss.

00:17:56.480 --> 00:17:56.720
Right.

00:17:57.200 --> 00:18:11.759
I mean, I think team, if you had to say one thing for anybody listening, if you're a young leader, you know, think coach, think you need coaching, be coachable, be curious.

00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:22.160
But I think building team, like if I were to say, if I were to say, what could get you promoted, get get you, I mean, like it's like team.

00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:23.759
It's like learn most people are starting to do that.

00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:25.839
And understand how to recruit the right team.

00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:26.319
Right.

00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:33.759
Because you you can recruit someone that seems to have the the skill set that you need, but do they are they going to be a cultural fit to you?

00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:40.480
Are they gonna really be because I I've made some mistakes in recruiting people that I I met and boy, I really fell in love with them.

00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:45.039
I just connected with them and boom brought them in, but they were not a cultural fit to our culture.

00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:45.440
Right.

00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:48.400
So we're very intentional about all these aspects.

00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:56.880
I I go through about how to build a strong bench, one of the chapters in here, uh, because I I used the illustration that uh one year I was coaching at college level.

00:18:57.039 --> 00:19:00.240
I went through three quarterbacks in one game.

00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:01.680
All three of them got knocked out.

00:19:01.759 --> 00:19:03.599
I did not have a fourth quarterback.

00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:03.839
Yeah.

00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:05.440
So like the NFL this year.

00:19:05.599 --> 00:19:08.079
They're bringing people bringing 40 something.

00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:09.680
I didn't have a taxi squad.

00:19:09.759 --> 00:19:11.039
I could bring one up.

00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:16.480
So I grabbed this kid that was a running back who I knew had played some quarterback in in uh high school.

00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:18.640
And I grabbed him, I said, Hey, the name is Dano.

00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:20.720
I said, Dano, you're quarterback now.

00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:22.799
And it's just he'll look at me like, what I'm gonna do.

00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:26.960
I said, we're gonna run a quarterback sweep right and a quarterback sweep left, you know.

00:19:27.119 --> 00:19:29.599
And we did, and we luckily we won the game.

00:19:29.759 --> 00:19:32.000
But it uh you've got to have a deep bench.

00:19:32.079 --> 00:19:37.359
If if you're gonna know how to build that bench, how to recruit the right type of team there.

00:19:37.920 --> 00:20:01.279
And and so oftentimes we're looking outside when really we need to be looking inside of what God's already got there, because when you can build up leaders and be intentional about building a leadership pipeline internally, even I've told guys that are pastoring small churches, don't wait till you get, quote, bigger where you can hire staff.

00:20:01.359 --> 00:20:01.599
Right.

00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:05.359
Start developing the leaders you have right in your midst right now.

00:20:05.519 --> 00:20:19.759
So so I I talk a little bit about in a book about how you know we we not only have a college like you do, a milestone college, but we also have a great leadership college that is for we're mining young leaders.

00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:37.039
So we get kids in there from high school on up, yes, up into their 50s, 60s are in this, and we have an intentional training program because the pace of your vision will be totally dictated by the level of your leadership development.

00:20:37.519 --> 00:20:38.319
That's so true.

00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:55.599
I think a lot of I think a lot of leaders out there think if I had a different place, if I had a little more provision, and what you really learn long term is what you're talking about, coach, God brings the resources, the opportunities come, the buildings.

00:20:55.759 --> 00:21:03.119
I think a lot of times we're very myopic in thinking this is my biggest barrier, but really it's about that team leader.

00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:07.039
It's the leader, it's the people that you're building and developing.

00:21:07.359 --> 00:21:07.759
Right, right.

00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:16.799
You know, I I remember a year ago, I I was talking with Chris Hodges that we all know and love, and and and the great ministry that Chris has built and the college that he's built.

00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:24.480
But he made this simple statement that is basically said, never let your uh your vision outpace your leadership development.

00:21:24.640 --> 00:21:24.880
Yeah.

00:21:25.119 --> 00:21:26.960
And and that's what that's what we're saying.

00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:33.039
So I I talk a lot in the book about how to not only build a strong team and strong vents, but then how to empower them.

00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:33.359
Right.

00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:44.079
And how to really do that in a way that you um you can really help them develop that trust and credibility in their leadership as they go.

00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:46.319
And um I think that's an essential element.

00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:47.839
And then have a scoreboard.

00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:49.599
You know, I'm big about having a scoreboard.

00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:50.640
I I want to keep score.

00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:51.599
I keep score.

00:21:51.839 --> 00:21:53.680
I'm competitive, I keep score.

00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:59.200
But I'm I'm keeping score of the things that are indicators of health.

00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:08.079
Indicators of strength, indicators of growth, because that's what we want to keep the score on, because that helps us know where we are.

00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:10.960
And I want everyone on our team growing.

00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:13.200
That's why I keep wanting to grow.

00:22:13.359 --> 00:22:19.039
I went back, Jeff, as you know, you you got your doctorate degree from uh Southeastern University.

00:22:19.359 --> 00:22:27.599
Um, I went back to Southeastern and I I had a doctorate degree already from Liberty, but I I went back for an organ, I wanted to get a PhD in organizational leadership.

00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:36.240
Now I'm I'm like 70 years old at the time, and I go in before the committee and they look at me and they're going like, you know, they're looking at this guy, going, what's this old guy doing here?

00:22:36.400 --> 00:22:39.680
And say, like, they asked me the question, what are you doing this for?

00:22:39.839 --> 00:22:45.759
You you're already a leader, you travel the world, you're with Maxwell, you're in this, you're in that, and boom, boom, boom, boom, the church.

00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:48.160
I said, no, guys, you don't understand.

00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:57.440
I said, if I'm gonna be credible as a leader for those that God's called me to influence, I've got to show them I'm still growing.

00:22:57.599 --> 00:22:58.079
Oh, yeah.

00:22:58.319 --> 00:23:05.519
So if I'm not growing and pushing myself, and I'm doing this to push myself and to force me to grow.

00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:13.839
And I said, I'm trying to help churches that are hitting natural barriers and they're trying to transition through them uh and grow.

00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:17.519
So that's why I want to do it in organizational leadership, because I want to help them.

00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:28.960
I want to pour into them, I want to give them the tools they need and understand uh some of the systems and support structure they need in order to make these moves and be prepared for all that God's doing.

00:23:29.119 --> 00:23:30.960
And so they said, okay.

00:23:31.200 --> 00:23:36.000
So I went pressed through, and it was three tough years, but I mean I pressed to it.

00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:39.119
But I that is the indication I want to keep growing.

00:23:39.359 --> 00:23:48.880
Yeah, and you you were you were my mentor and helped help me get my doctorate, and it's just that that was so inspiring to me to think you're taking those steps.

00:23:49.599 --> 00:24:05.519
What what do you think, coach, you know, if if you're if you're looking at currently the the challenges young leaders are facing, because I do think there's not only is this book on time and it and their the truths are timeless, right?

00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:06.799
Because they're based on scripture.

00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:20.640
But but you see, I I said this recently with a group of pastors that I actually think uh the leaders leading tomorrow have to be better than you.

00:24:20.720 --> 00:24:22.400
Oh yeah, and have to be better than me.

00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:26.480
Because they're facing a new level of dynamic challenges like that.

00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:29.759
I tell you, the challenges facing our leaders today is just amazing.

00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:38.160
I have a I have a chapter, I have I have two chapters that really help on this, really focus on this, and and the one is a whole chapter I did on on integrity.

00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:45.039
Um because uh there's nothing more important for us as leaders uh to to guard our integrity.

00:24:45.599 --> 00:25:11.759
And we're being bombarded every day by the enemy of our soul trying to destroy us with so much out there and what we're exposed to today that we weren't exposed to years ago and and the challenges and how to build the right safeguards in your life, in your ministry, um, that will keep you in a position where God continue to pour a spirit in you and through you for the mission ahead.

00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:19.119
But that that challenge, because I I hate to read any of Barna's stats because they're so depressing.

00:25:19.279 --> 00:25:19.680
Right.

00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:39.279
But when I I recently read some things that Barna had posted about what young ministers were facing and what they're dealing with and and what they're struggling with, and uh struggling with with uh with with pornography, and I'm going, oh my goodness gracious, struggling with things and then discouragement and depression and the anxiety.

00:25:39.359 --> 00:25:40.720
I'm going, oh my goodness gracious.

00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:42.240
Was I raised in a bubble?

00:25:42.319 --> 00:25:42.880
What's the deal?

00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:43.200
Right.

00:25:43.440 --> 00:25:45.359
Our generation was different.

00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:49.359
We weren't as exposed to as much as the generations are now.

00:25:49.599 --> 00:25:53.599
Well, I started at 21 and then there was no there was no cell, you know.

00:25:53.680 --> 00:25:58.240
When I when I started, cell phones were it was a few years before people had cell phones, right?

00:25:58.319 --> 00:25:59.440
So you're before me.

00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:20.240
But even for me, it's a radical uh change because it's not just the safeguarding, and this goes for ministry leaders or anyone, the safeguarding related to take pornography, the accessibility, you know, you had to go to a store somewhere or go to a a place.

00:26:20.559 --> 00:26:22.960
You know, now there's just all this being fed.

00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:35.759
Obvious, that's obvious, and and I think that there are leaders out there that probably could be struggling with things that they need a mentor, they need a f they need somebody to say, hey, will you pray with me?

00:26:35.920 --> 00:26:38.799
You help us come together and overcome this.

00:26:39.039 --> 00:26:50.000
But I do believe even outside of these obvious evil sin demonic, you just have the whole uh of social media and what people say.

00:26:50.799 --> 00:27:02.079
I mean, the pressures now and the criticism and yeah, the things that happen, I mean, and everything you have now is boom out there, and everybody's got an opinion, they can take a shot at you.

00:27:02.319 --> 00:27:07.599
And um, I have a chapter on there on actually how to how to lead through times of crisis.

00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:08.400
Oh, I love that.

00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:11.920
Uh, because uh we all you're gonna face crisis in your ministry.

00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:15.920
If you if you're doing anything significant for the Lord, you will face crisis.

00:27:16.160 --> 00:27:20.799
I use David at Ziglag as one of my examples uh that he battled.

00:27:20.960 --> 00:27:26.240
And then the other thing about criticism, how to deal with criticism, because we all face that.

00:27:26.319 --> 00:27:32.559
And that's a hard thing for any of us to process and handle, especially young leaders that they're out there, you know, really getting after it.

00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:35.920
And then suddenly they get all this criticism going, well, how do I process this?

00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:37.759
And I I talk a little bit about that.

00:27:38.079 --> 00:27:39.519
I mean, you you've helped me.

00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:54.079
I mean, we walk through COVID, then we've walked through a very interesting cultural time the last several years of probably some of the most extreme polarization in our culture of around our elections, around all the things.

00:27:54.240 --> 00:28:05.279
I mean, my and as pastors, we're by nature, we we don't compromise the truth, but by nature, the pastor in town is the unifier, he's the pulling people together, right?

00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:12.079
And so you you you know, you build a following by being radical in statements online and things.

00:28:12.160 --> 00:28:22.079
And so a lot of times for a pastor, you know, it it can feel like man, I don't even know how to how to win or how I'm losing on all fronts.

00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:25.920
I mean, you've been an encouragement to me through these different seasons.

00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:28.799
I just recently was talking with a pastor.

00:28:28.960 --> 00:28:30.079
He goes, So what do you do?

00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:34.240
I think we are unwavering on preaching the word of God.

00:28:34.720 --> 00:28:37.680
We are unwavering on what is right and what is wrong.

00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:50.720
But I do believe I'm people say I kind of have a lot of your I'm calling pastors back to being pastors because the nature of a pastor is we speak the truth in love.

00:28:51.440 --> 00:28:54.240
The lost people of our community know that we love them.

00:28:54.400 --> 00:28:59.920
And by the way, even those who are enemies and disagree with us, we love them too, right?

00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:05.519
So we're we're this we're this voice in the community.

00:29:05.839 --> 00:29:15.839
And so I I just want to encourage maybe somebody out there, you know, a pastor who kind of it's kind of interesting, it feels like just feels like it may not be true.

00:29:15.920 --> 00:29:19.279