The Internal Shift That Unlocks External Success

0:01 There are some things you can't have because you don't do, and there are some things you don't do because you don't be. You got to be. It's like I want to do this. Well, you haven't become the kind of person that does that. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, A focused person does that. A disciplined person does that. A committed person does that. Well, I want to welcome you to the Lead to Win podcast, where we help leaders win in the areas that matter most. And today we're joined by Pastor Jeff and our very special guest, dr Darius Daniels. Dr Darius is a pastor, a speaker, a coach. You're a certified emotional intelligence specialist Wasn't you powerful? And you serve as the lead pastor of Change Church in Atlanta, a multi-site, multi-regional community, and I was impressed by the fact you got your undergraduate from Millsaps, postgraduate degrees from both Princeton and Fuller, serving, coaching, pastoring, speaking.

0:56 In many ways, you guys have similar backgrounds and similar experiences. We're working from spending the last few days here at our leaders gathering, helping pastors and leaders from maybe 150, 175 different churches around the area. Both of you guys are in the season of growth and momentum, things really exploding in your ministry environments. You're leading growing churches. You're coaching leaders. When a leader hears about you, a lot of times they think well, man, they must be an overnight success. Bring me into a little bit into the world of what it actually takes to produce the momentum and to get to the space where you guys are at. Well, I've been excited about this moment. Darius, you know I know some of your background.

1:36 I know some of the conversations from your own father and some of that early training in the. Word and people see you. I think you're one of the greatest communicators of the Word, but not understanding the need people have, but also being you're connected to the text, which I really love. So we're not going to talk about communication and preaching, but you and I've been we could, yeah, we could. That would be a great topic yeah. But you and I have had connection outside from back you talking about those foundations from your father to some of your educational steps, and I remember the dialogue even about what changed church has become the now expression you have in Atlanta and a lot of things over the last few years.

2:27 But I think what I want to do in relationship to the Lead to Win podcast, the purpose of this is that there are people out there and they may be in multiple different places of leadership or responsibility or, as I say, stewardship, and they want to win, but somehow they get stuck. Or maybe they think it's a boss, they think maybe it's their context, or they're in a city and that city doesn't have the opportunities you know how we tend to look kind of around us when we get stuck, and so I just want to say, first of all, thank you for your friendship.

3:08 You're here sharing with our church. We've been here coaching leaders. You're sharing with our church, and I just wanted to have an opportunity for everyone listening to benefit from just you and I talking about leading to win. Yeah Well, first of all, I'm honored to be here, and I mean that, and not just because I'm honored to be with you. I think you get to a certain point in life. As you get older, it's not where you go, is who you with. You know what I mean. Yes, yeah. So I'm honored to be here, not just because I'm with you, but also because of what you're doing, and this is just my observation. It's going to sound like a blanket statement, but it is a statement I'm making from my vantage point, from the seat that I sit in, and from my experiences.

3:53 You are leaning into one of the most under-emphasized and underrated leadership competencies in the Christian space. Culture understands the importance of this competency, but it seems like in the Christian space, we've underestimated the importance of this competency. Wow, and that is coaching. That is a leadership competency. Yes, so when people talk about I'm leading, what does that? mean. Yeah. Like. It's a compilation of competencies that you've got to develop to be able to lead well. Okay, and coaching is one of them. As a matter of fact, it is probably Jesus's most dominant leadership competency.

4:39 Wow, I want you to think about this Very often. What we're repeating are the statements of Jesus. I want you to think about this Very often. What we're repeating are the statements of Jesus. I want you to think about the questions of Jesus, 307 of them in the New Testament. Who do men say that? I am there? You go Now. Who do you say that I am Does? that make sense? Yeah, there's a lesson there. He's leading them somewhere he is 100% and it is the way you create transformations without creating codependency. There you go, there you go, you got me. That's powerful. Say that again. That's really good. Coaching is one of the ways you can create transformations without creating codependency. So if all I am is the teacher, then you're just waiting on me to continually and consistently disseminate information.

5:25 I'm telling you what to think, but when I move into coaching now, I'm not just telling you what to think, I'm showing you how to think, and I think that is what makes Lead to Win so distinct and so important and so necessary, so necessary in the current age that we live in. So, man, I forgot the question. I don't even know the question. No, no, no, that was really good. I want to talk about specifically getting stuck, but I'm thankful for you and I'm glad you're excited about Lead to Win. Because you and I have already talked, I'm going to pull on you a little bit to understand some of the things you've learned over the last several years.

6:07 You do more speaking, you have a broader speaking and you have an amazing speaking gift than I do, but we share this passion for that coaching part of what you do. You've been in the space a little longer than me, so I'm thankful that I'm going to be able to lean on you and ask some questions I always love. I said I'm going to ask you some questions. You're like, I got some stuff to tell you. That's good. I would hate it if I said hey could you tell me something? You're like I ain't got nothing at all. So tell me, though, let's dial in on this specific moment together, because we've had conversation.

6:49 We could go down speaking, we could go down local church, we could go down being a good manager of people, we could talk about team, and I love that you said this competency. Right, yeah, like this competency, but why is it that so many people? Because this is really the question why is it in our culture that so many people have apprehended that which they perceive to be winning, but still feel stuck, like what, if you're stuck, if you're not winning, what's going on?

7:30 Yep. So the reason people feel that way is something I mean you mean you were talking off camera. It is one I don't think people have. I don't, I don't think. A lot of times people take the time to customize like their own definition of success. Right, right and so you talk about this like I think there's one, this, this one axiom, right, right. And so you talk about this like I think there's one, this, this one axiom Some people spend their life climbing their way to the top of the ladder, get to the end of their life and realize they leaned in against the wrong wall. Yeah. You know. So I think that's, that's part of it, but generally speaking if someone's stuck, they're probably about three or four reasons in any area of life as to why they're stuck. Okay, so the first one's going to be the first place I'm going to tell people to look is character Now, particularly in the faith-based space.

8:15 When you say that people think ethics Right, I'm assuming you're ethical. Okay, yeah, you'd hope. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's not what I'm referring to when I say character, right I'm talking about traits I'm not talking about ethics. I'm talking about optimization, so it's not. Are you a good person, right? It's not. Do you have morals? Right it's. Do you have the traits you need to get the results that you want? Wow, okay. So you can be a moral person and not a focused person, right, you can be a moral person and not a resilient person. You can be a moral person and not a focused person. You can be a moral person and not a resilient person. You can be a moral person and not a resourceful person. Sometimes, all you guys, two fish in five loaves of bread. You need more than morality to multiply that. To multiply that you need resourcefulness and innovation and creativity and you need grit.

8:58 You can't be so defeated by the fact that you feel like you got less than what you need to start with, by the fact that you feel like you got less than what you need to start with that you don't pull on the creative resources that God's put on the inside of you to multiply the two fish in the five loaves that he's given you. So very often people, like you said, look outside of them and they don't see. Hey, it's not if you're a good person. It's not if you're a disciplined person. It's not if you're an innovative person. It's. Do you have enough of that trait to get the results that you want? Wow Right. Right. So that's the first place I would tell people to stop and again. so you're talking about the do not do this or the Ten Commandments. We're kind of assuming this general integrity and morality. Yes, You're actually talking about and I've been recently thinking about this because we have a college here, right, we partner with ORU and we're trying to train a next-generation ministry leader and I really dove into that the last couple of years and I don't want to broad brush every generation or a generation as well.

9:59 You guys are all this or that because, not everybody in any segment this or that, because not everybody in any segment. But I do think one of the things I've started honing in on is you know, you're hitting on it like laziness or not. Those are character traits. actually they're not actually, well, I'm just this way, or? that. Those are character issues that need to be. So you're saying you're stuck a lot of times for not just do not do this, do not do that, but you have not even developed your character in some areas of, as you said, diligence or resourcefulness or something there.

10:41 Yeah, it's using Genesis as a framework. It's the be do have framework. Yeah, it's the using Genesis as a framework. It's the be do have framework. Yeah, there are some things you can't have because you don't do, and there are some things you don't do because you don't be. Yeah, you got to be. It's like I want to do this. Well, you haven't become the kind of person that does that. You know what I mean, right. Yeah, yeah, does that? A disciplined person does that? A committed person does that? And so I think when you get into some of the wisdom literature, that's kind of where I'm pulling this philosophy from, because that's where you'll see Solomon use terms like sluggard and he's like hey, if little sleep, little slumber, poverty comes on you like a madman, like a thief in the night.

11:23 Yes, so he uses kind of terminology that speaks to traits. Yes, that are beyond what we would just call ethics yes you know what I mean. proverbs 6 go to the ant yeah, like look, look, look at how he's, how the ant is proactive, yes, and not reactive, like when you look at what he talks about in Proverbs 6, it's he prepares for winter and summer. That's proactive, yes. Not reactive it says they do this without any sort of overseer. Wow, so it means that they're self-motivated, right? So these are all traits that I think are built on the foundation of morality there you go. Right, yeah, that contribute to whether or not a person is stuck or gets unstuck.

12:06 So it's almost like you're pulling on from Proverbs when Solomon says that you see a man skilled in their work. They won't stand before obscure men, they'll stand before kings 100%. So character is almost very tied to this competency, almost like skills. Pastor, jeff, you say sometimes, when you're asking about a young person, what do they know how to do? Do they know how to do anything? Yeah, that's the second thing I would say. Though that gets people stuck, it's competency. So, competency, right, that's the second, it's not am I good at this? Are you good enough at this to get the results you want? Wow, right, you know, I think that's the key. It's not whether or not I've got the competencies. Have I developed that competency enough to get the results that we want?

12:51 This is something you said in family gathering? No, was it family gathering? We were somewhere together and you were doing a session. And I'm paraphrasing because I can't say it the way that you said, it came from your heart, but basically, kind of, what you said is and I'm going to use cultural terminology, all right, so people give me that basically leadership is the skill that scales. It's basically what you said. It's like hey, you can't preach up a church. He's like no. If you want to scale, if you want to multiply, if you want to expand your reach, there's one skill that does that, and that's leadership, that is shepherding, and so you understand what I'm saying yeah, and sometimes I'll be honest, I've been thinking about, because I keep developing that thought and I keep sharing it and I keep trying to keep self-awareness, because I said it the other day and I had a few leaders, because I'm you know, I was a pre-digital pastor when no one knew what I was preaching other than the people sitting in the congregation, and I think God's using that technology.

13:58 Obviously, we're on a podcast, right. I have some preaching clips that you know my team will put out, because maybe there was something I said that could help people and I was actually making the comment about, though, but I look at like everybody's talking. They got little words underneath and people. They're not even hitting the little thing to listen to what they're saying, but you got the words so you can read it. And everyone's talking and here was my. I literally had this thought last night what you're talking about back to competency, the scalability of that model. I'm not saying that having a preaching clip is bad. What I am saying is and you wouldn't say this about yourself but there's only so many Darius Daniels, there's only so many people that are in the elite percentile of God chose to sovereignly use their faithfulness.

14:52 Because you have a gift, but I know how hard you work at developing that gift but you've also been given some very unique abilities your ability with the word, the intellectual ability, the motivational skill that you have. I'm saying this about you, but I may not be able to preach like Darius Daniels, but that's okay, because really he's having to develop those other traits too, because we've had conversations and built his leadership 100% and he doesn't want a church. That just got preached. So, he's continued to build his church. He's began to refine processes and systems and assimilation and leadership. 100% yes. But you do because you want health and you want to honor God.

15:33 I just want to tell a lot of leaders, though, that only depending on one attribute, such as speaking is still a bad strategy because it doesn't scale very well. That's a small percentile, 100%. Are you hearing what I'm saying? Yes, yes. Yes, and for people who have issue even with the scaling terminology you can't shepherd well you can't, you can't care for people. Well, without that particular skill, like it is the skill. So let's say people got problems with the scaling terminology Okay. It is the skill that helps you steward people well, there you go. You is the skill that helps you steward people well, there you go. You can't even steward the people that God sends well without developing the skill.

16:15 Well did not the book of Acts, did not the church scale, I mean? they were adding. They added a lot of people, right, but then they get out here a few chapters and now they got to be like well, look, we're going to focus here and you're going to focus on that, and we're going to do that. We're going to focus here and you're going to focus on that and we're going to do that, and then it says they multiplied. That's right. So a change in how they were operating and what they were doing resulted in multiplication. And that was the leadership competency, though that is. Acts 6. So in Acts 3 and 4, they're preaching. They're communicating, they're communicating, they're communicating. And it creates a spiritual harvest of people that now they are not stewarding properly.

16:57 So widows and Grecians are being neglected in the daily distribution of food. So now they have preached up a crowd that their preaching can't steward. Well, so, now they have a leadership conversation and make a leadership decision, appoint deacons, add systems, add structure to actually steward the people well. And that happens so quickly, right, like the first time, peter preaches 3,000 there. So, people tend to think the early churches they were just this huddled together 3,000,. They quickly realized we can't scale this, we can't figure out what to do with this. So we're going to have to redo our strategy and I think the conversations around you know sometimes just churches and things.

17:37 I mean we're talking about businesses, we're talking about if you have one kid, if you have two. We have four children right and we have a 14 year old, so it's also your department. If you're working in the children's area and you have one volunteer and you have 20, I say it this way no one person can be responsible for the whole once it begins to be beyond a certain magnitude. I mean, different people have different theories. One person can take care of 50 people. One pastor can take care of 200. Average church in America is less than 200. I mean, or even around the world, there's a lot of smaller faithful people, but if it's going to go beyond that, I'm not responsible to take care of all the needs, but I am responsible to make sure the needs are taken care of 100%.

18:24 I remember when I was this was probably about a decade ago I was sitting with my coach at that time and talking through some organizational frustration and one of the things he said to me and I adopted the mantra and I say it to this day. It's a part of our vivid vision description in our church you don't go as far as your dream, you go as far as your team. He said to me, he looked at me, he said, darius, you don't go as far as your dream, you go as far as your team. If God does everything through you that you're believing him to do, it's going to take more than you to steward it well, and so you're going to have to learn how to develop that and refine that skill. But you know, the competency could be leadership. For some people, like you mentioned kids the competency could be time management, like whatever it is Sometimes it's character, and then other times it's competency that contributes to people staying stuck.

19:13 It's what you actually do right. So you've got to spend some time, you know, seeing what those core competencies are. You also, as you said, coaches make you go further. Yeah, you said that you get a coach, you get a lot of people again, never find out what that deficiency is, because they never allow someone else to Right, they're not coachable. Yep, you know what I? mean, and they never know. So true, that's so true, right? Because here's the thing One of the things that we say, like around our organization a lot is you can't grade yourself. You can't grade yourself. So you know you can't see you. So sometimes you need somebody outside of you to help you see something that you're unable to see, and I think that's so key, right?

19:55 Sometimes people don't know. Hey, you might not be as good at managing time as you think you are, and that doesn't mean you're a bad person and it doesn't mean you're not better than most at this. It means that you're not as skilled in this area as you need to be to get the results that you want in this area as you need to be to get the results that you want. I think a lot of times team members especially in this ministry context, the lead pastor they're nervous about giving honest feedback to the lead pastor because they're not sure how it's going to be received, because it's almost like he's our leader, so he knows how to do it all. So it's not always rewarded to be like, hey, maybe some coaching could help right. Yeah, yeah, 100%. Good teams have honest feedback. They're secure enough to have that. It's the anchor trust. It's built around honesty.

20:36 Championship teams have that kind of culture around it, so I got it Okay. So there's character deficiencies. I got to have character here, and then I've got to build some competence. I talked to a young guy the other day. He's just getting out of college. I said what are you going to be? He said I'm going to be a consultant. I was like, wait a minute, how do you get to consult before you've developed? the competencies. As John Maxwell says, you have to have did before you get to do. Yes, yes yes. So what's? the next one. What do you do? So the next one, it's kind of like the two more and they're kind of related.

21:17 So one is, the next one's going to be goals. Yeah. And you know, for me this kind of goes back to the conversation that we had earlier about kind of having the courage to customize what success looks like for you in this season. So for me my commitment is to self-optimize. A former chaplain at Harvard, elton Trueblood, said intentional mediocrity is sin. Wow, it's bad stewardship. It's saying to God you should have taken the abilities, gifts, talents you've given me and gave them to somebody else who did more with it. There you go. Right. So I want to self-optimize without self-destructing.

21:59 Yeah, yeah, those two things. So we're talking about winning, like if I'm optimizing and I'm self-destructing, I'm not winning. You know what I mean? Don't you think that a lot of times is because I've been thinking about that in winning too a lot of times that optimize or maximize, or even success or be better, if it is you being the best God's called you to be, or you being, again, not the best, where we mess up, is we go. I'm the best, Wow. Instead, I want to be my best. So that's a stewardship statement being my best is a stewardship statement. Well done good and faithful servant.

22:40 Where I think we end up imploding is we're actually optimizing or maximizing against the other person in our race. Some people don't believe winning is in the Bible, but 1 Corinthians 9 says run the race to win, but where they? Miss it is. The Bible uses battle metaphors and athletic metaphors. But in the athletic race there is your race is not against the person in the lane beside you. The whole context of the passage is eternity. So this is back to Genesis. Here's the garden. Steward it, keep it. This is Matthew 25. Be faithful with the little you'll be given much Really.

23:25 I'm stewarding. I'm optimizing not out of the flesh, I'm stewarding what God has put on the inside of me, and I'm actually doing it for the glory of God. It's for other people. It's for other people it's eternity based. Because I mentioned the coach that told me you don't go as far as your dream, you go as far as your team. My life was transformed. I think my family was stabilized, my emotional and mental, mental health was, I'm gonna say, rescued, because he chose to optimize. Wow yeah. So if he makes a decision not to become his best best self in the name of unbiblical understandings of humility, then he robs me of the gift of his best self, which actually changed my life, because he was a pastor that stepped into coaching and then, when I had a burnout crisis and all of that, I got connected with him and it revolutionized my life.

24:28 That was the inspiration for me to step into coaching, because he so changed my life. I said I've been hearing sermonsized my life. That was the inspiration for me to step into coaching because he so changed my life. I said I've been hearing sermons my whole life, right, and it didn't do for me what this? did. It was still the ministry of the word, it was just a different delivery system. So still the ministry of the word. And I said, man, what this guy did for me, I feel called to do this for other people. So he would have robbed me if he wasn't his best self. He wasn't committed to winning. And really we talk about coaching. Some people have a call from God to help others in a different way. We have pastor calls, we have shepherd, but every Christian is called to make disciples.

25:09 That's right At some level. We're all little coaches of Christ. Yes, 100% At some level, because we're all called to give away what we've been given. That's right. I think people get intimidated because you're like I had this coach change my life or even me. But even a mom out there, she's coaching some children. If you're a parent and you have teenagers, coaching is a parenting competency. Yes, it's 100% Parenting competency. Teenagers, they talk it back at that age. Yeah, you better have thick skin. You better be ready to go. It's like okay. It's completely different. It's like okay, I don't want you to just not do this outside my presence. I want to convince you this is not good to do I need you to go?

25:51 why? Yes, presence right. I want to convince you. This is not good to do. Yes, yeah yeah so so I think it is in the old statement, like a boss gives you a job, but a coach invites you into a process, invites you into a team and then, like you said, adjusting that at the teenage years is a big deal, like you, come as boss yes, you can kind of miss it. that's bit, that's right. Come as coach, you might get received a little bit more, that's right 100%. But what you were originally saying was okay, our character, then our competency, and then we've got to define where we're going. That's right, got to be clear. Without vision, we cast off constraints. So, getting clear goals. Yes. This is where I really feel God has called me goals.

26:33 This is where I really feel God has called me. I keep having a word come up in my head. I heard it years ago redemptive potential Redemptive potential. What is my redemptive potential? What's my department. What is my small group? What is my family? Because that's even a greater, I think, kingdom way of looking at a goal. That's right. Yeah, I'm looking at that eternal, that stewardship, that redemptive potential and what I hear you saying, because I hear it keep coming out of you. If I know that and I define that, that then pushes me to find out where the inconsistencies, where the incompetencies are yes, yes, to get to that 100%.

27:17 Yep, it exposes them Exactly. Yeah, it does A hundred percent. That makes sense. I hear the similar language, the redemptive potential and you talking about the self optimization. So can you? You know this. I'm hanging over here waiting for this fourth one. Do you have the fourth one that you're going to give us? Yeah, the fourth and the final one is this in terms of why people stay stuck or don't reach their redemptive potential, and so it could be character, it could be competencies, it could be lack of goals, lack of clear goals, right, or it could be standards. This one thing about a couple of years ago shifted everything for me. Wow, okay, yep, it shifted everything for me Okay. And I actually get it. I'm not going to go all through it, but I get it with uh, with daniel, and the preparation process that he refused to go through because it violated, uh, hebrew dietary restrictions.

28:10 Wow, yeah, and remember, you guys remember that, daniel? yes, so wouldn't eat from the king's table would not eat from the king's table, but ended up getting a better result yes here's the thing. So it it. This is what it showed me the standard is not the ceiling, the standard is the floor. Wow, wow. So you don't always get your goals, you always get your standards. Wow, because your standards are your non-negotiables. Wow, right, right, you got me it is what you're willing to suffer for. Right A standard's not a standard unless you're willing to suffer for it. Wow. And so I think there are a lot of things that people call standards that are actually aspirational.

28:54 It's like that's a goal, but a standard is I'm willing to suffer for this, I will not violate this, I will not violate this. And here's the great thing about it. It shifted everything for me because I realized, Jeff, I couldn't reach my goals overnight. I could change my standards in a moment. I could say as of right now, I no longer tolerate this from me and that revolution. And so some people it's like yeah, you got your character, you got the competencies, you got the goals, you just don't have the standards. There you go. That's amazing, and Daniel ends up being 10 times better than everybody else, right? As a result of that choice. Yeah, and isn't that what we see so many times? We see it in Scripture where there's these insurmountable odds.

29:37 I mean the whole Bible's full of that. Like they held to their standard. God of that, like they, they held to their standard. God destroyed an army bigger than them. God parted a red seat, you know we see it over and over and we see it in our lives. I mean I'd like to encourage somebody out there, whatever you compromise, to get you have to compromise to keep Right. And so there's this lure that well, I could compromise the standard or not have the standard, and then I could get to it a different way. You know Abraham and the different stories right Like shortcuts, and so what you're saying is a lot of times people are not winning, and not winning at what matters most, and not feeling fulfilled really is also what we're talking.

30:21 We're talking about words like fulfillment, significance. We're not just talking about just the stuff that we do or what we do and what it produces. We're talking about something coming from a deeper place, and what I hear you saying is that there's a deception and a lure. That's right. And don't have aspirational standards. Have actual standards, that's right. And you'll be surprised at what happens. There are proclaimed standards and then there are actual standards. Yeah, and the fulfillment gap in your life is the gap between those two things wow, yeah so the more you close that gap, the more fulfillment you're actually going to have.

31:01 Yeah. And so I've experienced that and um, and what I've learned is fulfillment is the highest form of compensation. It's more valuable than any. It's more valuable than finances, is more valuable than opportunities. But that gap is only closed when your proclaimed standards become your actual standards, and that's when you're living a life saying I'm making a decision that the things that matter the most to God are going to be the things that matter most to me. That's so true, Wow. So what I talk about in the Way to Win book, what I talk about with men right, because one big scoreboard men men right Because one, one big scoreboard men have, and you mentioned it finances and God uses finances.

31:49 We know, it's not it's not money's not evil, it's, it's love of money in the wrong perspective. What does it profit a man If he gains the whole world? it's the whole it loses his soul. Cause that that is what you're saying. That's right. You can have this scoreboard and be like making more money but not be fulfilled, and that means maybe you violated a standard to get what you thought would fulfill. That's right, and you don't feel like you're winning. That's right. You gave up the thing that would actually fulfill you. Wow, chasing the thing that actually won't Wow. And what God's actually saying is you don't have to violate your standards, because I have all of this too.

32:33 That's right, yes, and. I can take care of you and I can reward you, and so it doesn't have to be an either or yeah, I think that's what we see with Daniel. I think in part, that's what we could take away from Abraham and Isaac there are times we're not saying all the time, but there are times where you won't have to give up what you think that you'll have to give up to hold a standard Sure. One of my other favorite stories while we're going down Bible lane is the Ecclesiastes passage right, the word habel there when he uses it's all vain. I mean, you're talking about someone that had. I mean this guy would be the Hollywood.

33:14 He would be all of the Hollywood characters wrapped with the Forbes billionaire list, wrapped with the if it was drink, he drank it. If it was the party, he had it. The woman. he had it and he goes. It's empty and the picture there is of a well that you keep dipping a bucket into over and over, only drawing it up to find that it doesn't have anything in it. So, the most miserable person on the planet is actually the person who ascertains or obtains that which they believe will satisfy their thirst, only to find it can't deliver. That's powerful. It's a well that has no water.

33:55 I want to finish with this thought those are great things. I think anybody out there that's stuck. If they'll do those four things, they will really think about their character. They'll think about competencies learn how to do something better. They'll think about their goals and setting the right things. They'll really think about standards, uncompromising. I just I kind of think about guardrails and bumpers too. Just this is like I'm not going this way or that way. Those are great things, but when you've been, you know you spend a fair amount of time in the leadership space and you hear the leadership discussion, what is something that you think, something that's just kind of been bubbling in you just about in general, just culture, Like you said some things about, like in the Christian space there's some lacking thing in coaching, but what's kind of just been stirring in you recently?

34:57 I know you were just telling me you woke up this morning, had some writing and you had a little flow what's kind of bubbling up in you right now? It's really simple, I think right now, for me it's self-leadership, and what I mean by that is here. I go back to the coaching conversation, right. So when I say self-leadership, again, I'm not just talking about managing your life morally. That is important, that's essential. I'm not underestimating that, I'm just saying I'm speaking beyond that. And when I'm talking about, when I'm referring to this idea of self-leadership and what I've learned is you get to seasons and situations where maybe you're stuck.

35:39 So you get to seasons and situations where maybe you're stuck and you're going to have to learn how to hack you in order to move you. Wow, so self-leadership Now. So we'll slide into the emotional intelligence space. The first quadrant of emotional intelligence is self-awareness. Right, that's the first one, right, because you can't have self-management, right, without self-awareness, and so there has to be awareness. How am I wired? Where do I tend to get stuck? What contributes to me actually being stuck, so that I can come up with a strategy to actually move me in a way that aligns with how I'm actually wired?

36:26 Because I think what happens is we can read books and assume that every strategy works for every person, right, when the truth of the matter is some people's, like you might not like motivation, you might be lacking something else. Sure, some people's like you might not like motivation, you might be lacking something else, and so your ability to kind of hack you and to figure out OK, how am I wired? What are these tendencies and traits that I have myself into strategies and tactics that will help me manage some of these things that are actually creating misery for me or keeping me from.

37:10 From interesting that I mean the self-leadership discussion, because every time we come back to you're talking about self-awareness or your coach having the impact and I and I know your personality. So we're we're, we're, but, but. But I will say one of the things that's got people stuck, because all that stuff you're describing has a piece to it that includes not being isolated, yes, you follow me. Yeah, yeah, you can't coach yourself. If you said it's on your team, you can't grade yourself yeah you can't be aware of yourself. So isn't that kind of ironic that self-leadership, which is really where you're trying. You're not trying to create codependency, and really a good coach isn't somebody that you're trying to keep in perpetual all the time.

37:54 They're not micromanaging every detail in your life. We're trying to keep you somehow dependent forever, but you've got at some point, have an engagement, ability to see and then move into being aware of those things that have been 100 percent. Yes you have self-leadership yeah, I think honestly like an organizational leadership, whether it's a company, whether it's a church, you name it. You've got probably upper or middle leadership who in some way is probably thinking I wish some of the people that I lead would lead themselves better. True. It's true, yeah, yeah, and I think this idea of self-leadership it's almost like we limit the conversation to the benefits that it has for me personally when I lead myself well, but it has benefits beyond me personally, Does that make sense A hundred percent To others?

38:54 the reciprocal effect of that is huge. Well, I don't think it's an accident. I'm sitting with two incredible coaches. I'm sitting with two incredible coaches, but also, as I listen to you, I know that both of you are two of the most coachable you want to be coached. You're not sitting there like I'd like to coach somebody else, but don't say anything to me. The Bible says that if you correct a wise man, they'll love you for it. And Pastor Jeff, we've been friends for so long. You're curious, you're a learner, you're wanting to get better. It's oozing out of everything you're saying. I'm getting inspired to go listening to you talk about how motivated you are. So I don't think that that's an accident that you guys talking about how it's under emphasized. I think a lot of times in this space people are like well, I'm doing my thing and don't say anything to me as opposed to being willing to say if you see something, say something.

39:41 I want to grow, I want to get better. It's so refreshing to hear both of you say that. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I recently invited someone into that space. They came here, they spoke. I called them the next day and said did you have any feedback? And their response to me was well, no one ever asked. That I'm like. I'm trying to get better. Then they said well, sit down. I got my iPad. I got 13 things that I got to correct. I'm like well, you know, maybe, but I mean the sign of security, the sign of I want to honor God, I want to, I want to get unstuck. Yeah, yeah. Is is being teachable and being willing to be open you know not to every voice, sure Right, but to the right voices.

40:28 And you and I share some of the same voices and relationships who care about us, and they're not trying to speak into every space, but you better know who you've allowed to speak into what space. Yes, oh man, that's a completely different conversation, right? Whoever has your ear has your future. Wow. And I think that's one of the most important decisions you can make is who you choose to give your ear to. Yeah, that's a good deal, that's numbers 13. Yeah, that's why they didn't go into the promised land when they could. They chose to give their ear to the 10 instead of the two, joshua and Caleb. And there's so many voices. There are so many voices pulling for our ear today, probably more than ever before, more than any generation that's ever lived, and so being wise in that is critical.

41:11 Well, I want to say thank you to you, Darius? Yes, absolutely. I mean, a lot of people know you from you know you're, again, an incredible preacher of the word and you obviously get invited into some amazing spaces and of course I always celebrate that, listen to your messages and but a lot of people don't realize that your gifting can take you so far, right, and you, you know you're. You're not where you want to be, but you're not where you used to be. But what I love about you is, every time we talk, you know you're making progress right. God's not after us being perfect, but he's looking for that progressive work forward. And then I think a lot of people don't understand.

41:53 Again, I'm going back to our college, I'm trying to train, I'm trying to inspire. You say you want to do this or that. Maybe not speaking, maybe whatever that thing. You want to do this? Or that, maybe not speaking, maybe whatever that thing you want to aspire to. I appreciate you saying hey, I want to work on that. I want this self-leadership to develop that too, and anytime you see somebody over a long period of time, anybody can do something semi-good for a moment. But if you see them sustain that there's something else happening underneath. Yeah, it's strong, it's a commitment. I appreciate it. Grateful for you and grateful to be here and learning and growing and trying to self-optimize without self-destructing.

42:40 That's amazing. There you go, there you go. Well, I want to thank both of you guys. This has been so rich, such an incredible conversation. On behalf of our audience, I want to thank you guys for being so open and there's so much, so deep, so rich and so. Thank you guys for creating this conversation. Thank you guys for watching. I hope you'll join us next time on the lead to win podcast.