Tauren Wells on Growth, Grace, and Giving Back

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I can look at every moment of discipleship, promotion, elevation in my life and connect it to a person.

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If you're ever going to discover you, you have to discover the God who created you, and your pain doesn't disqualify you from being in his presence.

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His presence is the place that you actually process it.

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Well, I want to welcome you to the Lead to Win podcast, where we help leaders win in the areas of life that matter most.

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We're joined today by Pastor Jeff, as always, and our special guest Torn Wells.

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Torn, we're so glad that you're here.

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Torn your list of accomplishments is great.

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Irrelevant I'm going to do it anyways as a pastor now.

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Irrelevant the people need to know.

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So 10-time Grammy nominee, eight-time Dove Award winner this is hard to put your brain around.

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More than a billion streams worldwide, nearly half a billion views, seven number one radio hits.

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You just dropped a new single, thank you for the Cross New album.

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Later this year You've got the High Note podcast.

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Your first book's about to come out Joy Bomb.

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There will be joy.

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Come on see, hey Bishop, and on top of all that.

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You just planted the Church of Whitestone a little over a year ago, you and your wife Lorna.

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Four boys, Four boys.

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You've got a lot going on, the Lord's blessed you with a lot and let's just settle this.

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Lorna, to meet her is where you see the power right, absolutely she's amazing.

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She is legendary, truly she's amazing, she really is amazing.

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And that's really I mean I'm so excited about having you here.

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My team asked me for like five years to do a podcast and we started the Lead to Win podcast because I have relationships and people and I'm always I'm learning and my son is doing young adults and so I've started thinking more about the podcast impact really.

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And I thought at my phase of life now not that I'm at the last end leg, but I'm far enough into it that it's like I feel some sense of a stewardship to just share the conversation and so I'm just glad to have you.

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When I see all those accolades, which I think are amazing, I text you.

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When you were hosting the Dove Awards, I thought you were live.

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Yeah.

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And I was like, bro, you're doing good, yeah, and you're like yeah, it was good, it was good, I'm at the crib yeah.

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I'm in my sweats not my sequins.

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But yeah, no, thank you On behalf of you know, normally I'd be on the other side of this listening, but thank you for holding this door open for all of us.

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I actually got to be in the room for podcasts with John Maxwell and some of the other folks that you've already recorded with, and it's just amazing to have access to conversations that you've been having all along the way, but that we don't get to necessarily hear.

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So it's been a huge value add to me personally.

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And then I'll just go ahead and say Whitestone would not exist without Milestone and without you, without your personal investment.

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You can edit this out if you want to, because I don't want to create expectations on other church planters.

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But y'all hired our first staff member.

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Not hired it away from you.

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It helped you hire.

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That's usually what happens.

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Let me rephrase that Y'all paid for us to hire our first.

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No one's going to listen if they think we take staff from you, recruited from our launch team.

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that's very, very um but no, seriously, from a personnel standpoint, uh, support covering, and what people don't know is we go back to 2016.

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You know I hadn't really done anything and you told me two things.

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One, I was too cheap.

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You blessed me with a great offering.

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Two, you said that I needed spiritual family, and at that season in my life it was such a critical thing to hear and a lot of what has been birthed out of this season in my life came from the seeds of those conversations early on.

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So thank you, and thank you for letting me be here Well, thank you for just your heart and spirit and your I mean knowing you back then.

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You came, you blessed our church, we made connections.

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Obviously, we have other relationships and then you know I've just celebrated everything God's done through you, but it's not just what you've done, but it's how you've done it.

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So I want to honor you for having the heart that you do, and I, again, I'm just excited about all those accomplishments, but I'm most excited about the fact that I get to see you in a different place and with some other things.

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It's really you grabbed a hold of the concept that is my passion and that is everyone's running a race.

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Paul says run to win.

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We a lot of times and I think there maybe could be a younger listener out there, or I don't know someone out there that thinks, well, if I got this, nothing wrong with this, if that's your stewardship, then we're celebrating you.

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But running to win is really, in the context of the scripture, is thinking about eternity, which is a much longer range viewpoint.

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So I like to think about winning at what matters most.

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That's your wife, that's your kids, that's the people that know you the best, respect you the most, and so I've just enjoyed us being able to talk about those topics and connect around those things.

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What I feel has blessed me the most, just kind of coming into this space, because we're connected in multiple ways.

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Now you've had me come speak here, which has been amazing.

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Your message, if anyone's listening.

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I love the church we.

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It was so powerful, it was just amazing and there was a real move of God that night and, and, and and.

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There was just just people um impacted in a powerful way so people were hungry.

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Yeah, well, they were spiritually hungry, but y'all were on a three-day fast so they literally were like, let's get through, let's shout him down so we can go to water burger.

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so you're saying you had a good word, but if people have been fasting for three days, yeah, anything sounds good, yeah.

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Is the bread warm, but also being able to be connected in the Lead to Win cohort, which has been incredible.

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But here's why I felt so comfortable, because there are a lot of people who have volunteered themselves into your life, who want to be a voice when things are happening.

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You know who want to be a voice when things are happening, but you actually celebrated those things that have happened.

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It wasn't like, yeah, you've done all that, but now you're going to really get into ministry, right, like a minimizing of what I've come from and the things that God has allowed me to do so.

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true.

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And a lot of the pastor's club and I love pastors and I love the church and I've got four pastors because apparently I'm hard to keep control of.

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But a lot feel and I don't know what it is, but there's like a minimizing of like, yeah, you did all of that, but you haven't paid this cost, right right, you haven't fought these battles.

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You ain't done real ministry.

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Yeah, and I know on this side of it a lot of that's true.

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There's a cost of pastoring that you can't even quantify.

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Yeah.

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But what has given me trust is you building on what God's already done in my life to help me accomplish everything else.

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Well, and I think that's a that's, that's back to winning at what matters most.

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But also just so there's just people listening who say, hey, it's not a Jeff little torn Wells, but it's, it's it's dad and teenage son.

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It's it's it's staff member, it's youth pastor going, and my thought about that is even with you, I don't.

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I mean, obviously parents have a bigger role, but that's the power of multiple anchors, no one person.

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So really you weren't leaning in with me to learn how to write a dove award song trust me, that's not gonna happen you know, I might give you a few thoughts, but uh I think if I could sing on key I might actually be a good worship leader.

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I feel like I got a little if I could sing on key.

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Yeah, yeah, I might be a good.

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Yeah, that's.

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That's a good place to start.

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Start with getting the key, okay.

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A lot of people don't start there, they just feel it.

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Yeah, exactly.

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But I think, too, is is is offering what you offer.

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I don't think one person gives anyone everything, but there are divine relationships that are there to supplement, to supply, to give to to those areas, and for me, it wasn't about a lot of these areas.

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You had such a rich heritage.

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I really respected your faithfulness to your history and time and serving and I know all your backgrounds of things that no one sees in the unseen, as some like to say.

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You know, torn was an overnight success and you're like, it was a long night.

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So I respect all of that.

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I respect what God's done with you, stewarding your gifts and talents and offering them to the body of Christ.

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I was singing there Will Be Joy.

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That's why I'm excited about the book, because I text you.

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I play that a lot of times in the morning and think it's, it's got such a great message right.

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So now you're writing a book, or whatever those things are, um, I I still, for me, though, think it's, it's, it's me offering to you some of the things that I have from my place.

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That's, that's different than those things, yes, so um.

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I think that's so helpful.

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I think that that is what maybe people out there listening are looking for.

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Not even necessarily how do you write this song or how do you do that specific thing, but when we start helping people win.

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What are some of the timeless principles you?

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and I were just in a room with leaders, and this was the topic of conversation.

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In today's world, we tend to give formulas, we tend to look for formulas.

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I say it this way too there's a lot of places to get information, places to get inspiration, but what we really want is impartation.

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That is the difference maker we want the impartation of a life that's being lived.

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Uh, things like old school stewardship we're looking for for principles.

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So the statement that we were gathering around was it's not about necessarily formulas though you can get some good formulas it's about timeless principles, yes.

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So what are some of the principles?

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Because there's out out there, oh, I hear the songs, but what they want to know is tell me about the life, tell me about the principles you were rallying around.

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Yes, and I will definitely answer that question.

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I think, even before you get to the principles, you have to get to a person.

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I think, that think that it's so important.

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You know, obviously, being a new pastor, doing a lot of preaching, reading a lot of the Bible, yeah, it's a great book.

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It's good.

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Yeah, but there's the instance of the woman who has lost her husband, who was in the company of prophets with Elisha Mm-hmm, and when she had a need in her life, she sought out elisha yeah she found a person and I can look at every moment of discipleship, promotion, elevation in my life and connect it to a person.

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So I think the biggest principle that you have to start with is honoring the people God has in your life right now and absorbing as much feedback as they will give you, because amateurs will make you pay for giving them feedback.

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Professionals will pay for feedback.

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Wow, yeah, that's really good, and so from and this is something my youth pastor taught me early on is I'm giving you correction and guidance, not because I don't believe in you, but because I do.

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And so that has been a principle that has carried me through every season of my life.

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That has been a principle that has carried me through every season of my life.

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Right Now, I'm not still calling my youth pastor for what I'm dealing with now, although he is a competent, God-loving individual with his own impact.

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But God has brought new people into my life that I need to give them permission to challenge me.

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It's good.

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You know, and I think at a certain point in our life we realize that growth is no longer inevitable.

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It's optional and when you're initially a new believer or even if you just break it down to a baby you know, they're laying down and then they're rolling over and they never even thought about it.

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And then they're pulling up on the coffee table and they never even thought about it.

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Yeah, and then they're pulling up on the coffee table.

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They never even thought about it.

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And then they're running and they never even thought about it.

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But at a certain point, what's inevitable becomes optional.

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It's good and you have to choose again.

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another challenging voice, another person who will take limits off of your life by telling you what your limits are Right.

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So good, and so that's person who will take limits off of your life by telling you what your limits are.

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Right, so good, and so that's.

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That's been a guiding principle so good so many times, and I love that.

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What you just said it's it's a person.

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So so many times the answer to our prayer is a person.

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Obviously most of the people, I'm not assuming, cause there's all kinds of people listening to this.

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You know jesus could have come any way.

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He wanted to come, yes, but he came as a person.

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I love to say this I'm so glad I got no organ on this project.

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Give me some of that.

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Hey, maybe I could.

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I could get a little preach going he came as a person.

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He came as a person and I'm glad that he's not a philosophy, a statue, but he wept.

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Yeah Right, I'm glad I serve a Jesus that wept.

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Yes.

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I always tell people that's the verse you want to memorize in VBS.

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It's the short verse.

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That's right, it's the shortest one.

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It still counts, though it's a memory verse.

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Jesus wept but a lot of people don't know why he was weeping.

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He was weeping because he had these friends that he would stay with on his travels.

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And he goes and Lazarus has died.

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He knows he's going to raise him from the dead, but he still feels the empathy and compassion for the people that are there grieving.

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I love that homostatic union of that.

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He is fully God.

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He is fully man.

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In his God Ness he knows he's going to raise him from the dead, but in his humanity he has compassion and grief.

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Yes, and then what you said though Elijah, when he was depressed, elisha came into his life right.

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So a lot of times when you're discouraged or depressed, it's get connected, it's be more, it's a person right.

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It was both.

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Yes, I want to say this to maybe someone out there who's like.

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I wish I could have some people that would pour into me or encourage me.

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One revelation I had Elijah had as much need to give to Elisha his mantle as Elisha had need to receive it.

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Wow, that's so good.

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If you posture yourself, you burn everything as he had to do and Elijah had to open the door.

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But Elisha had to make the decision to step through it.

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And so I think there's a lot of people out there.

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There's probably a lot more access to more impartation and help, but many times they're not wanting to receive it.

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Well, the GOATs are coached.

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I got a little acronym, acronym calling out anything causing hindrance.

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Yeah, you need a coach.

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Yes, yeah and so you probably I gotta use that yeah, hey, I'm leading to win brother calling out anything causing hindrance.

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That's yeah, I mean, I can't give you credit one time on this podcast and then from then then on, it's like I always say.

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Yeah.

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I always say that but you guys have probably heard this.

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You know Tim Grover, personal development coach.

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He's now a pretty well-known name but in the late 80s, early 90s, no one knew who he was.

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He wrote a letter to 14 Chicago Bulls this group forming, you know to 14 Chicago Bulls, this group forming, you know and 13 of those players never responded to his inquiry.

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One did.

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We know that one Michael Jordan.

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Yes, the best player on the team, the leading scorer, the perennial all-star.

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Yeah, he was the one that actually sought out coaching and then, after Michael got Tim coaching him because, you know, michael couldn't beat the Pistons without a coach bring back those bad boys for life.

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Yeah, now we're the weak boys, but we're working on it but without that instrumental life and the you know we, we see Michael as kind of, you know cocky or whatever he had the humility to say, I'm not going to the next level by myself.

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Right, that's good.

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Dr Darius Daniels says you can't be your best self by yourself.

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There you go so that the compliment of community is so, so important.

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And to put yourself in the position to be challenged.

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Put yourself in the position to be challenged.

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I think there is a temptation to allow success or perceived success to allow you to graduate out of well, no, I just know better now.

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Yeah, right, yeah, it's a dangerous place to be.

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That's really good.

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I want to drill a little deeper there because I think you're on to something I'm hearing you say like we're responsible at a certain point as leaders, for our own development.

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And we have to be the ones who are driving that.

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So why do you think it's hard?

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What causes people to resist that?

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What causes people to?

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Why did 13 of the 14 say we're not really interested in that?

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We probably don't think we need that To both of you.

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What do you think makes it hard for people to receive coaching as love, as equipping, as that necessary piece?

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Well, I would say you know that the hardest person to lead is yourself.

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Right, the hardest person to lead is yourself, because the hardest person to see is yourself, and if you can't see yourself, your blind spots, then you don't know the spaces that you actually need feedback in, and it's probably that insecurity which has led to pride that is causing you to not allow people to have access there.

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The other thing is, unfortunately there have not been a lot of Pastor Jeff Littles or, like Pastor Jacob Aranza, who's one of my pastors, pastor Joel Osteen, who's one of my pastors, guys who actually are invested in your success Not your success in as far as I benefit from it but the pure investment of watching someone else become.

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And because there has been such great manipulation of other talented people, I think there's portion.

00:20:13.588 --> 00:20:14.730
Elijah had to go okay.

00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:29.887
Like how secure Whoa.

00:20:29.887 --> 00:20:32.565
Right, I'll give you a portion.

00:20:32.565 --> 00:20:35.092
Yeah, right, I'm not giving you Double Double.

00:20:35.112 --> 00:20:38.388
Yeah, like we always commend Elijah's boldness.

00:20:38.509 --> 00:20:38.910
Yeah.

00:20:39.099 --> 00:20:48.355
Which my humility would, be like Pastor Jeff, if I could build 10%, 10 of this, that'd be pretty good, yeah, and it would be.

00:20:48.355 --> 00:21:11.317
But to say I want a double portion says a lot about not just what I feel about you, but the god that you've taught me it's really good, yeah, that he has greater things but that ability as the, the senior leader or the person who's a little bit further along, to be willing to say you catch this mantle, you can have it yeah, wow, that, that, that's so.

00:21:11.376 --> 00:21:16.555
What you're saying is and Jed will tell you this we've been friends for 25 years and and I.

00:21:16.555 --> 00:21:19.982
I'm not saying this that I don't have other weaknesses.

00:21:19.982 --> 00:21:21.846
I can say stupid things.

00:21:21.846 --> 00:21:26.574
I can get overly reactive at times on certain situations.

00:21:26.574 --> 00:21:28.261
That may not be that I mean I will.

00:21:28.402 --> 00:21:45.349
I will have no problem on the podcast revealing my humanity and the stakes that I've made, but I can sincerely say that one of my struggles has not been if they're doing well Right, then that means that there's less for me.

00:21:45.349 --> 00:21:58.050
And I don't know if I just got a supernatural, but I would say to anyone out there okay, like if you, at any level, your kids I always think about a youth pastor that's a hero somewhere.

00:21:58.050 --> 00:22:05.693
You've been there cleaning the church, serving, setting up on Wednesday night, 50 kids coming and they're just like am I winning?

00:22:05.693 --> 00:22:18.708
If the people you serve know you want more for them than you want from them, the trust level goes through the roof.

00:22:18.708 --> 00:22:20.250
It's massive.

00:22:20.590 --> 00:22:23.099
And I think you hit the nail on the head.

00:22:23.099 --> 00:22:35.912
I think we've had a lot of pain, we've had our own rejections, we've had things that are real, that cause insecurity, but you also this thing that we have to keep communicating.

00:22:35.912 --> 00:22:37.794
Isolation is not the answer.

00:22:37.794 --> 00:22:40.957
The man who isolates himself rages against all sound judgment.

00:22:46.519 --> 00:22:47.422
So at the end of the day we got to.

00:22:47.442 --> 00:22:48.265
Joyce meyer used to say do it afraid.

00:22:48.265 --> 00:22:54.560
We got to yeah, we got to press into that relationship or go to that thing or have that conversation right.

00:22:54.560 --> 00:22:56.665
That that can be hard and we just gotta.

00:22:56.665 --> 00:22:58.390
We gotta keep pressing through.

00:22:58.951 --> 00:23:48.154
But you know that thing that chris hodges said was um leading models and mentors right, right, you know I think that, and you would maybe know the history around this more, but it seems like the generation beyond you, like few and far between, there were actual fathers, right, who knew what it meant to be a father, and I mean like practically and spiritually sure yeah and so you raise a generation, or didn't raise a generation of sons who don't know how to be sons right, so and then there's no model like I grew up, feel like in a context that had a lot of unhealthy souls.

00:23:48.476 --> 00:23:48.776
Yeah.

00:23:49.280 --> 00:23:54.358
That were just ready to throw arrows, really just at the next generation in general.

00:23:54.358 --> 00:24:00.011
Right, Like I'm going to preach to you that I believe in you and you're going to write the greatest songs and you're going to build the greatest ministries?

00:24:00.011 --> 00:24:04.941
Yeah, but if it looks, if you don't decide to put on my armor, yeah, right Wow.

00:24:04.941 --> 00:24:07.102
So that from a distance it looks like me.

00:24:07.461 --> 00:24:09.563
Yes, yeah, wow yeah.

00:24:10.042 --> 00:24:12.844
Then I'm going to have a major issue with that.

00:24:12.844 --> 00:24:28.849
And now you have become my enemy without seeing the actual model of fathers and sons, of brothers.

00:24:28.849 --> 00:24:38.992
Like getting to watch you and Pastor Steve Robinson today sharpening each other how to do this thing of family together, raising up sons and daughters in the house.

00:24:38.992 --> 00:24:55.239
I don't think I would have had the appropriate awareness, even when Pastor Jacob, you know, mutual friend, he started leaning into my life seven or eight years ago and I was extremely skeptical.

00:25:00.902 --> 00:25:09.726
Because I'm like, you want me to fly, but you want me to be a kite, Like you want to control the string down here from the earth while I'm, you know, and so there's a.

00:25:09.746 --> 00:25:16.259
It took time to build trust and by the 1000th prayer and celebration and gifts to my kids.

00:25:16.259 --> 00:25:21.972
I'm like, okay, this dude could care less if I get one more grammy right yeah, he's started church

00:25:22.012 --> 00:25:22.480
or whatever.

00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:24.305
Yeah, yeah but it showed me.

00:25:24.506 --> 00:25:27.492
Okay, this is how you become a father, right?

00:25:27.492 --> 00:25:30.128
So now I have actual model for it Great.

00:25:30.128 --> 00:25:49.525
And I think we were missing that, and I would just encourage anyone that's watching you have to get into the environment where you're seeing health, yes, or you won't even know what health looks like Right, that's a personal development principle, right Like there's never been more information, more podcasts, more content, more downloads.

00:25:49.664 --> 00:25:53.797
But there's a big difference between tell me a bunch of information and show me.

00:25:53.797 --> 00:25:57.095
Like you say all the time how about a little less talk and a lot more action?

00:25:57.095 --> 00:25:58.830
Let's model it for people.

00:25:58.830 --> 00:26:04.555
You can't just tell somebody hey, be a father, you have to model it for them so that they can walk behind you in it.

00:26:05.025 --> 00:26:16.729
And I think that we are in a current church world and I don't think there's as big a difference between church and business or anything where I appreciate what you said.

00:26:16.729 --> 00:26:29.074
You know there's these generational principles, but I'm always careful because I have young adults and kids out of the house now, and different ones at different phases, and a whole generation of young people at our church.

00:26:29.074 --> 00:26:31.171
Sure, we're a multi-generational church.

00:26:31.171 --> 00:26:38.666
I'm now at the phase where you know the person who approves my expense report was one of the first four kids in the youth group.

00:26:38.747 --> 00:26:41.394
Okay, it's like so that's where I'm at.

00:26:41.796 --> 00:26:42.036
Yeah.

00:26:42.486 --> 00:26:43.209
And and and.

00:26:43.209 --> 00:26:51.251
There's an art to bringing them to the table at the appropriate times but also not continuing.

00:26:51.251 --> 00:26:57.311
We get upset because they act like kids, but when they're not kids you have to bring them to the table.

00:26:57.311 --> 00:27:06.888
I say you have to at some point actually the shift even in the teenage years, to start pulling that chair around on your side of the table.

00:27:06.888 --> 00:27:10.207
So I'm not talking across the table but I'm talking to you.

00:27:10.207 --> 00:27:19.452
But I do believe there was a proportionate level generationally that the messaging right and that's why even this podcast.

00:27:19.472 --> 00:27:20.134
what's my heart?

00:27:20.134 --> 00:27:25.038
I'm not saying I have all the answers, but I do believe that you want to listen.

00:27:25.038 --> 00:27:27.667
You got to think about who you're listening to.

00:27:27.667 --> 00:27:34.094
You got to think about what's the fruit that they produce, and I think the narrative was cause.

00:27:34.094 --> 00:27:39.488
I heard it in seminary you know, don't get close to the people, like, don't be friends with your staff, don't that?

00:27:39.488 --> 00:27:43.184
There was a very positional positional narrative.

00:27:43.505 --> 00:27:50.298
I've been in rooms where it's like your staff and your team is not your family.

00:27:50.298 --> 00:27:55.817
Do not say that this is your family.

00:27:55.817 --> 00:27:59.234
Can they come in your house and get stuff out of your refrigerator at any time?

00:27:59.234 --> 00:28:01.512
That is not your family.

00:28:01.906 --> 00:28:03.003
Can they go sleep in your house?

00:28:03.003 --> 00:28:04.284
A lot of mine do, actually.

00:28:04.365 --> 00:28:08.234
I'm like okay, I understand that there are team dynamics and functions of a family, so it's a team, but I'm a.

00:28:08.234 --> 00:28:12.592
Okay, I understand that there are team dynamics and functions of a family Right, so it's a team, but I'm a family guy.

00:28:12.592 --> 00:28:17.750
Yes, I'm like no, come live with me Right, You'll be a better human in a year.

00:28:17.931 --> 00:28:19.236
Right, I promise you Right.

00:28:19.444 --> 00:28:22.894
So there's always been a rub to me and that kind of like.

00:28:23.717 --> 00:28:23.916
Yeah.

00:28:24.625 --> 00:28:25.589
Arms length away.

00:28:25.589 --> 00:28:29.357
Right Doesn arms length away thing doesn't even compute to this generation in my opinion.

00:28:29.357 --> 00:28:33.394
If you can't show me you love me holistically, then you don't love me.

00:28:34.645 --> 00:28:36.071
You're hearing their phrasing over and over.

00:28:36.071 --> 00:28:39.053
We had a young leader tell us this this weekend in between one of our services.

00:28:39.053 --> 00:28:43.329
One of the comments she was making about coming and visiting was I felt like I was seen.

00:28:43.490 --> 00:28:44.848
I felt like I was known.

00:28:44.950 --> 00:28:46.887
That's such a high priority to be seen and to was known.

00:28:46.887 --> 00:28:48.519
That's such a high priority to be seen and to be known.

00:28:48.519 --> 00:28:55.232
That's just a heart that I want to be a part of, something that's a family and then you sent her a link to my YouTube, fully known.

00:28:56.494 --> 00:28:58.219
A little plug, download it.

00:28:59.971 --> 00:29:00.393
Just kidding.

00:29:00.744 --> 00:29:06.412
You know, I think I began to analyze that, but now I'm sitting from my seat.

00:29:06.412 --> 00:29:09.486
I'm always cognizant of not everybody sits in my seat.

00:29:09.605 --> 00:29:19.548
yeah, um, you now sit in the seat and uh you went from national expert to now yeah, yeah, local idiot, that's what he says.

00:29:19.608 --> 00:29:22.451
Yes so and you're doing a phenomenal job.

00:29:22.451 --> 00:29:31.922
But I think I think I began to ask the question why did they become arrow throwers or, as you said, assault?

00:29:31.922 --> 00:29:33.592
Why did they become?

00:29:33.592 --> 00:29:39.056
And I don't think every one of them started out totally with that intention.

00:29:39.056 --> 00:29:42.354
No, I think they got hurt by people.

00:29:42.354 --> 00:29:55.114
Say to any leader the level that you're going to go to will be your ability to process the conflict, the disappointment and the hurts that you gather along the way.

00:29:55.114 --> 00:30:07.488
Yes, and I just decided I'm not going to move into a castle, draw up the drawbridge, look out the window and and say you guys you know, can come visit at Christmas, maybe.

00:30:07.627 --> 00:30:07.948
Yes.

00:30:08.648 --> 00:30:11.432
I'm just going to work through the pain.

00:30:11.432 --> 00:30:13.273
Yes, we've all had it.

00:30:13.273 --> 00:30:16.636
Yeah, and not begin to broad brush.

00:30:17.778 --> 00:30:38.755
Every person in the next generation doesn't have grit doesn't want to work doesn't want to do, because I don't have to believe in the next generation today, necessarily, but my values you have many teachers, but you don't have many fathers, and I have that as a conviction.

00:30:38.755 --> 00:30:40.731
So therefore I'm going to press past.

00:30:40.731 --> 00:30:47.931
I'm honestly in a major learning curve right now about the next generation and trying to understand different things and have conversations with them.

00:30:47.931 --> 00:30:54.675
So I think that's such a rich concept that I think sometimes people give up on.

00:30:54.675 --> 00:30:56.416
But there's so much reward.

00:30:56.416 --> 00:30:58.919
Anything in life that's really valuable has a cost to it.

00:31:04.825 --> 00:31:05.566
Yes, and that's actual legacy Right.

00:31:05.566 --> 00:31:17.258
That's actual legacy, you know, is people doing what they never could have done without you, but able to do it without you.

00:31:17.838 --> 00:31:20.981
Yeah, yeah, you know Exactly, that's legacy, right?

00:31:21.265 --> 00:31:47.510
And I think even as a young leader I'm already, I've got that lens, yeah so, in some senses, if we're not secure and the reason we might be insecure is because it hurts just if this is a sermon we build our points the second thing is how we overcome that insecurity or that hurt.

00:31:47.510 --> 00:31:58.376
So we might have real reason for why we are, but I do believe at its very root is what you call zero sum.

00:31:58.557 --> 00:31:58.758
Yeah.

00:31:59.426 --> 00:32:11.672
I grew up with two sisters, and so on Saturday morning my parents were not wealthy, Like you know we had food, but there was like one box of cereal, not five, and I knew if I didn't beat them.

00:32:12.085 --> 00:32:15.095
The question is is it on the top of the fridge or was it in a pantry?

00:32:15.224 --> 00:32:19.111
No, it was above the stove oh yeah, yeah, yeah, you pull that out.

00:32:19.111 --> 00:32:29.009
And only if you'd been good did you get like the good cereal versus, like the no-brainer, not the real Lucky Charms?

00:32:29.029 --> 00:32:30.361
Yeah, yeah, the fake ones, right yeah, fruity Loops, fruity.

00:32:30.402 --> 00:32:30.501
Loops.

00:32:30.501 --> 00:32:34.695
Yeah, and I know, if I didn't get up before them on Saturday, they would go eat all of it.

00:32:34.695 --> 00:32:39.797
And so the zero-sum concept is the pie has only so many pieces.

00:32:39.836 --> 00:32:40.278
Yeah, yeah.

00:32:49.704 --> 00:32:53.416
So if my son, friend, person colleague, colleague, church across town, yeah you know, if they take four pieces of the pie.

00:32:53.416 --> 00:32:54.019
I have less pie.

00:32:54.019 --> 00:32:54.820
Yep, it's just not.

00:32:54.820 --> 00:32:55.723
It's not true.

00:32:55.723 --> 00:32:57.869
It's just not true no, it's the it's.

00:32:58.171 --> 00:33:02.519
They call it in business they call the difference between an abundance mindset or a scarcity mindset.

00:33:02.519 --> 00:33:14.961
Yeah, so like if you are finding I think, just listening to both of you guys, this Saul concept is really finding your value and worth in your results as opposed to in this infinite God.

00:33:14.961 --> 00:33:17.977
Our value if we find it in our results is finite.

00:33:17.977 --> 00:33:18.840
It is zero-sum.

00:33:18.840 --> 00:33:26.500
But in ministry, as a leader, that's why you have to find your identity in who Jesus says you are, because he is truly abundant.

00:33:26.500 --> 00:33:30.615
And one of the things I appreciate about you, you know you're an abundance thinker.

00:33:30.615 --> 00:33:32.151
You challenge me in that all the time.

00:33:32.151 --> 00:33:35.595
Like it's easy for us to think, well, what if this happens?

00:33:35.595 --> 00:33:36.396
What if this happens?

00:33:36.396 --> 00:33:40.696
And to let fear drive it, as opposed to no, god's way bigger than that.

00:33:40.696 --> 00:33:42.070
He has way more than we need.

00:33:42.070 --> 00:33:44.894
We've got to get out of scarcity and into abundance.

00:33:44.894 --> 00:33:46.351
Yes, absolutely.

00:33:49.744 --> 00:33:50.145
What is the go ahead?

00:33:50.145 --> 00:33:50.645
What do you say?

00:33:50.645 --> 00:33:55.193
My final little tag is you can either overcome that or compensate for it.

00:33:55.193 --> 00:34:05.949
Right, and the compensation part is where the the danger happens, and then you end up hurting people that actually wanted to believe in you and love you and be led by you so.

00:34:06.309 --> 00:34:14.711
So behind the scenes, why and how did you come into this season of music and different things you've done?

00:34:14.711 --> 00:34:16.170
I want to talk about that.

00:34:16.170 --> 00:34:28.744
Then I want to talk about the transition to the church world, because I think a lot of people would like to hear that when we were back 2016, you were just starting to travel some, you were still working at a local church.

00:34:28.965 --> 00:34:30.490
You were just kind of doing your deal.

00:34:30.490 --> 00:34:30.972
Yeah.

00:34:31.465 --> 00:34:35.936
Like what was happening in you with that as you started writing these songs.

00:34:36.085 --> 00:34:42.534
I'll give you the abbreviated kind of version Got saved when I was nine years old, started singing in the choir 16.

00:34:42.534 --> 00:34:45.494
Had a great youth pastor come to our church.

00:34:45.494 --> 00:34:47.409
I'm like, hey, I'm in the youth group.

00:34:47.409 --> 00:34:48.635
I'm excited we're gonna have a youth group.

00:34:48.635 --> 00:34:49.076
That's awesome.

00:34:49.076 --> 00:34:51.945
I was like, oh, bud, it's gonna be a few years before you can get in it.

00:34:51.945 --> 00:34:53.268
I'm like, bro, I'm 16.

00:34:54.489 --> 00:35:03.833
I can be in it now and so I I jumped in that and, uh, amazing, amazing guy and ended up just being at the church every day after school.

00:35:03.833 --> 00:35:11.456
It was in walking distance from my, my junior high school in high school, and so I was was just at church and setting up stuff and I led worship.

00:35:11.456 --> 00:35:22.393
But I really loved setting up the chairs and vacuuming the carpet and stealing construction equipment from every local construction site, because that's how you decorated youth rooms in 2002.

00:35:22.393 --> 00:35:24.818
So it was like all of that kind of stuff.

00:35:24.818 --> 00:35:26.427
And then I would invite my friends.

00:35:26.427 --> 00:35:32.878
I went to public school, so my friends were coming to our church basement and getting saved and going back to school.

00:35:32.965 --> 00:35:34.250
They're like, hey, could you help me?

00:35:34.250 --> 00:35:35.414
Like stop cussing.

00:35:35.414 --> 00:35:42.777
I'm like, yeah, I'll punch you every time you swear because that's, you know, hell, fire and brimstone.

00:35:43.619 --> 00:36:01.434
Type church type church so just I love the process of, even as a young person, people realizing there was more than getting drunk on Friday night and so I fell in love with ministry, which led me to go to ministry school, went to a small Bible college in Indianapolis, indiana.

00:36:01.434 --> 00:36:03.585
I traveled in a group there.

00:36:03.585 --> 00:36:11.949
You had to audition to sing in this group that toured and I did not make it the first year, so I need to work on my vocals.

00:36:11.949 --> 00:36:32.652
My wife we weren't married at the time, obviously, but she came in on a vocal scholarship so she was a baller, you know, and I didn't even make the team and so the next year I I got on that and that was my first, like I knew about Michael Jackson and NSYNC and all of that stuff growing up, but all that happened on another planet.

00:36:32.905 --> 00:36:36.396
Like it wasn't on my phone where I saw they're at my local venue.

00:36:37.186 --> 00:36:38.251
It was on television.

00:36:38.251 --> 00:36:42.429
Michael Jackson's on another planet right now where all of this is happening.

00:36:43.150 --> 00:36:54.420
So my initial context for even the idea of being a music artist or touring was traveling with my college band.

00:36:54.521 --> 00:36:54.681
Yeah.

00:37:06.664 --> 00:37:06.786
You know.

00:37:06.786 --> 00:37:09.347
So you called the pastors and you slept on the couch and you ate pizza and you led worship and rinse and repeat.

00:37:09.347 --> 00:37:09.371
You know.

00:37:09.371 --> 00:37:11.452
So I started a band out of school because I'm like kids don't want to hear choirs.

00:37:12.065 --> 00:37:14.672
And then Kanye did it, and then everyone's like, oh, I love choir.

00:37:14.672 --> 00:37:16.496
No, you didn't you made fun of us.

00:37:17.405 --> 00:37:19.072
So I'm like, let's start a band.

00:37:19.072 --> 00:37:21.784
Bands are cool, so we started a band.

00:37:21.784 --> 00:37:27.012
It was actually like ministry, like one-stop ministry on wheels.

00:37:27.012 --> 00:37:33.552
We bought this old 15-passenger van and me and five guys we would roll up into a city.

00:37:33.552 --> 00:37:35.077
Small little church.

00:37:35.077 --> 00:37:40.373
We'd do a concert on Friday night, we'd do outreach on Saturday.

00:37:40.373 --> 00:37:43.523
Our guitar player would preach on Sunday morning.

00:37:43.583 --> 00:37:58.333
Our keyboard player would do kids ministry and then we would do a big night, sunday night, you know, and I wasn't preaching in any of these environments always somebody else doing that but it was just the love for ministry.

00:37:58.594 --> 00:38:02.344
Ended up getting signed to a record label as a band.

00:38:02.344 --> 00:38:07.827
And then you know there just came a point of decision between me and the band.

00:38:07.827 --> 00:38:09.407
And then you know there just came a point of decision between me and the band.

00:38:09.407 --> 00:38:15.489
I really wanted to move from St Louis, where we were at the time, to Houston to do an internship at a church.

00:38:15.489 --> 00:38:28.853
They all wanted to move to Nashville to do the music thing and I was just like guys, I just want to go like, be this church environment, maybe we can do both.

00:38:28.853 --> 00:38:31.552
So we ended up doing both Got signed.

00:38:31.552 --> 00:38:33.773
I got married the same year I got signed.

00:38:33.773 --> 00:38:36.355
We continued to tour for a few years.

00:38:36.355 --> 00:38:43.356
We got two Grammy nominations, we had a lot of critical acclaim, but we didn't have a lot of practical success.

00:38:43.996 --> 00:38:48.277
So, we were out there on the road 200 days a year Wow, dying.

00:38:48.277 --> 00:38:51.759
I got married and left for six weeks.

00:38:51.759 --> 00:38:58.641
Wow, you know, my wife calls me while I'm out week three, find out her dad's been diagnosed with leukemia.

00:38:58.641 --> 00:39:02.382
Wow, the church splits because it's an interracial marriage.

00:39:02.382 --> 00:39:08.623
So you know, my wife is white and I'm mixed, so black and white.

00:39:08.623 --> 00:39:18.739
So it caused a huge rift in the church so we were immediately thrown into tons of turmoil and trauma and difficulty.

00:39:19.264 --> 00:39:26.239
So it really caused me to pivot, to like I'm going to have to lay down the band thing and like be home.

00:39:26.239 --> 00:39:31.407
Lay down the band thing and like be home.

00:39:31.407 --> 00:39:35.541
So I told the label hey guys, I'm just gonna be like local church not gonna do this, and broke up the band and everything.

00:39:35.541 --> 00:39:37.867
Really, really, really difficult decision.

00:39:37.867 --> 00:39:47.293
And then the label called and said well, what if you just continued as a solo artist and you can still do church work and all that?

00:39:47.293 --> 00:39:48.496
We'll work with you on all that.

00:39:48.496 --> 00:39:51.068
I'm like cool, I'll do that.

00:39:51.068 --> 00:40:03.969
So I was locked in, started as a youth intern, then creative director, then experienced pastor and once I was a part of the pastor's family I had a lot more influence than I probably earned.

00:40:04.731 --> 00:40:16.657
But that's where the love just for every component of ministry it was so, so I want to frame a couple of things because a lot of a lot of people you know are like hey, I want to do that correct.

00:40:16.657 --> 00:40:26.465
Okay, yeah, do you do I just have to say it because it's not said enough about anything not just not just music.

00:40:26.485 --> 00:40:30.733
They see the outcome, but they don't see the outcome, but do you love it enough?

00:40:30.733 --> 00:40:32.496
To sleep on the pastor's couch.

00:40:32.697 --> 00:40:34.139
Do you love it enough to?

00:40:34.199 --> 00:40:35.126
get in the van.

00:40:35.126 --> 00:40:36.047
Do you love it enough?

00:40:36.047 --> 00:40:37.250
Whatever it is?

00:40:37.530 --> 00:40:49.286
Pain is the admission price for destiny, that's powerful so you've got to know if you're really willing to pay the price, are you?

00:40:49.327 --> 00:40:55.291
willing to pay the price, and you only pay the price if you're called and you have the love, because love motivates.

00:40:55.445 --> 00:40:56.505
Love's the highest motivator.

00:40:57.889 --> 00:40:58.853
So I hear that.

00:40:58.853 --> 00:41:13.128
The second thing I hear is there were some conviction-based decisions that on paper did not look like they were a promotion and really long-term.

00:41:13.128 --> 00:41:16.677
You see this in people's lives there's one, a love, a passion.

00:41:16.677 --> 00:41:18.527
I'll do it whatever I get paid.

00:41:18.527 --> 00:41:22.798
It doesn't matter, I'm just doing the stuff right.

00:41:22.798 --> 00:41:27.967
The second thing you see is they're even willing to lay Isaac on the altar.

00:41:28.007 --> 00:41:44.362
They're willing the moment you get the promise there's generally in the story of anybody a time where, out of conviction, I'm not worshiping even that thing that I love or that I do or that I'm gifted at.

00:41:44.402 --> 00:41:44.641
Yes.

00:41:45.865 --> 00:41:47.007
I'm living out of conviction to honor God.

00:41:47.007 --> 00:41:47.728
Yes, that's where you see substance.

00:41:47.748 --> 00:41:48.009
So keep going.

00:41:48.028 --> 00:41:49.831
Those are two things that we'm gifted at yes, I'm living out a conviction to honor God.

00:41:49.871 --> 00:42:12.666
That's a big deal yeah, that's where you see substance, so keep going those are two things that we have to frame, yeah absolutely, and I'm glad you did, because to me, although I love music and I feel like if I didn't do music on some level, I would die- it's a part of how God wired me but my love and passion is church ministry.

00:42:12.686 --> 00:42:33.043
It's seeing people come alive in their relationship with Jesus and in their calling, and so that initial, those initial moments, even in Bible college, I was rallying people in Bible college let's go downtown, let's serve the homeless, let's thirst quenchers you know, let's go hand out water.

00:42:33.083 --> 00:42:36.791
We can't afford Sprite you know there was.

00:42:38.114 --> 00:42:44.389
I mean we were dreaming about planting a church in Mountain View, colorado as college students.

00:42:44.389 --> 00:42:47.867
I'm asking my professor what would you think about a team moving to a city to start a church?

00:42:47.867 --> 00:42:48.242
You know, desperation Band was that new life.

00:42:48.242 --> 00:42:49.432
And I'm asking my professor what would you think about a team moving to a city to start a church?

00:42:49.432 --> 00:42:49.532
You?

00:42:49.552 --> 00:42:50.416
know Desperation.

00:42:50.476 --> 00:42:51.579
Band, was that new life?

00:42:51.579 --> 00:42:55.971
And I'm like you can use music as a spearhead of a local movement.

00:42:55.971 --> 00:42:57.574
You know how do we do that.

00:42:57.574 --> 00:43:00.527
That was what my heart was galvanized around.

00:43:00.527 --> 00:43:15.056
And then, a year out of college, I read Launch by Nelson Searcy and he painted this practical picture of you can set up church in a high school cafeteria and start carving out your own thing.

00:43:15.056 --> 00:43:18.407
That's what was in my heart at 21.

00:43:18.407 --> 00:43:23.393
So my only framework for music was God.

00:43:23.393 --> 00:43:27.318
How are you using this to help me get to?

00:43:28.079 --> 00:43:28.981
the church Love it.

00:43:30.869 --> 00:43:42.376
Totally different paradigm and there were 10 off ramps that I was wishing I would have taken or could have taken along the way, but God said not yet, not yet, not yet, not yet.

00:43:44.427 --> 00:43:45.949
So what's been your biggest?

00:43:45.949 --> 00:43:51.840
Obviously, you have a lot of context for it, but I'm not even on coffee.

00:43:53.148 --> 00:43:53.228
Yeah.

00:43:53.829 --> 00:43:55.114
This is what the church does.

00:43:55.114 --> 00:43:57.186
What?

00:43:57.246 --> 00:43:57.507
though.

00:43:57.507 --> 00:43:59.972
What, though, was your biggest surprise?

00:43:59.972 --> 00:44:08.092
With so much context, so much understanding, stepping into the senior pastor role, you know what was not.

00:44:08.092 --> 00:44:09.637
A lot of people may be listening.

00:44:09.637 --> 00:44:11.429
There's probably several senior pastors.

00:44:11.429 --> 00:44:13.875
There's maybe some thinking do evaluating?

00:44:13.875 --> 00:44:14.757
Should I be that?

00:44:14.757 --> 00:44:18.639
But it's really just a principle that I'm trying to get to.

00:44:18.639 --> 00:44:23.889
It's really more of a deeper principle, because I think a lot of people believe back to winning.

00:44:23.889 --> 00:44:27.474
If I had the position, right, that's true.

00:44:28.335 --> 00:44:31.380
You're winning because you're in charge okay, yes, if I was that yeah.

00:44:32.507 --> 00:44:32.708
So?

00:44:32.708 --> 00:44:39.893
But winners win at whatever what I'm hearing you say they're winning or growing or progressing.

00:44:40.353 --> 00:44:40.916
Bearing fruit.

00:44:41.025 --> 00:44:42.871
Bearing fruit wherever.

00:44:42.871 --> 00:44:52.954
I would say but what was your biggest surprise, even though you read all the books in real life, because I was there, I've been there, I've watched the journey.

00:44:52.954 --> 00:44:55.554
It's been amazing what God's done through Whitestone.

00:44:55.554 --> 00:44:57.411
It's amazing what God's doing.

00:44:57.565 --> 00:45:05.719
You can shape the post answer how you want, but this is probably not the answer that we're looking for.

00:45:05.719 --> 00:45:12.056
The biggest surprise to me has been the level of submission it takes.

00:45:12.358 --> 00:45:12.577
Wow.

00:45:13.164 --> 00:45:15.673
To operate in the fullness of your potential.

00:45:15.974 --> 00:45:16.195
Yeah.

00:45:17.204 --> 00:45:28.135
Because I think, like in your mind and this wasn't even my framework, but maybe it was it's like you're the decision maker, right?

00:45:28.135 --> 00:45:46.094
Like you're the man, right, right, like you're the man, you're yeah, you're the lead creative you're yeah, you know, and it's really, it's what Paul said, like I gave you access to every part of my life.

00:45:46.173 --> 00:45:50.773
Yep, I did not shrink back the Ephesians church where he's leaving Ephesus.

00:45:50.773 --> 00:45:54.204
I did not shrink back from declaring to you everything that I had yes, yeah.

00:45:54.686 --> 00:45:59.996
But from opening up my whole life to you and that requires incredible submission.

00:46:00.217 --> 00:46:00.539
Right.

00:46:01.606 --> 00:46:36.210
And I understand the biblical hierarchy of authority Right, the biblical hierarchy of authority right, but it's really an upside down triangle, because you are called to leverage everything that you possess for the glory of God and the good of others.

00:46:36.570 --> 00:46:36.911
Yeah.

00:46:37.452 --> 00:46:39.275
That is the role of a servant.

00:46:39.496 --> 00:46:39.757
Yeah.

00:46:40.177 --> 00:46:54.074
And if you can't be submitted to a pastor, there's no way you're going to be submitted to the needs of your people so true because it's the same muscle, and I don't think I realized that.

00:46:54.074 --> 00:47:06.934
What unlocked it for me, though, was when we first my wife and I first really wanted to go plant in 2017 16.

00:47:06.934 --> 00:47:16.827
Right in there we went and talked to my father-in-law, and he said I'm so glad god's opened your heart to pastoring.

00:47:16.827 --> 00:47:22.545
Go ahead and go, get back to work it was like you're not going anywhere right now.

00:47:23.306 --> 00:47:25.269
What are you absolutely not.

00:47:25.269 --> 00:47:34.612
And then we came back to him a little bit later and it was like hey, we really think we should be doing this.

00:47:34.612 --> 00:47:39.505
I'm so glad God has opened your heart to pastoring.00:47:39.505 --> 00:47:41.228


Just keep letting him do it.00:47:41.228 --> 00:47:52.135


Then we went through a process and ultimately it culminated in us sitting in his office and saying here are the choices we feel like God is giving us to make.00:47:52.135 --> 00:47:54.639


You're our pastor and we can't make them without you.00:47:54.639 --> 00:47:57.929


We submit this process to you.00:47:57.929 --> 00:48:06.490


And he said I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm releasing you into what God has called you to do.00:48:06.490 --> 00:48:12.739


And he said I want you to notice that your submission has led to your advancement there you go and it was literally from that point.00:48:13.119 --> 00:48:16.588


my whole world opened up Such an important point right.00:48:17.811 --> 00:48:21.579


So, first of all, it's love, it's fruit, it's consistency.00:48:21.579 --> 00:48:25.050


It doesn't always look like it, it's conviction.00:48:25.050 --> 00:48:29.699


I'm living out of conviction, not I got a convenient opportunity.00:48:29.699 --> 00:48:31.871


Most people think if I had more opportunities.00:48:31.871 --> 00:48:35.445


Actually, opportunities require more conviction.00:48:35.445 --> 00:48:38.231


They don't understand the more freedom.00:48:38.231 --> 00:48:40.538


Oh, I wish I was in charge, or if I had that.00:48:40.538 --> 00:48:44.510


There are freedoms you have, but in a lot of ways you you have less freedoms.00:48:44.510 --> 00:48:48.657


Right, because now you are responsible to serve in a different way.00:48:48.657 --> 00:48:49.920


So it's good.00:48:49.920 --> 00:48:51.610


And then some were sent.00:48:52.211 --> 00:48:57.972


Yes, and some just went and there's a spiritual principle in that the Apostle Paul saw Jesus.00:48:57.972 --> 00:49:00.097


He was struck blind.00:49:00.097 --> 00:49:01.523


He wrote two-thirds of the New Testament.00:49:01.523 --> 00:49:05.530


I told a young guy the other day I was like you're deeper than Paul.00:49:05.889 --> 00:49:09.635


Yeah, okay, yes, it's like it's like you have new insights.00:49:10.295 --> 00:49:13.500


This guy and they still submitted to the church at Amarok.00:49:13.500 --> 00:49:14.400


It's true, Right, Right.00:49:14.400 --> 00:49:18.617


We're talking about the guy who, okay, so you submitted it.00:49:18.617 --> 00:49:39.114


So therefore there's there's a intangible that creates tangible blessings on those and I think a lot of people underestimate that tangible blessing on those and I think a lot of people underestimate that they're like that, but they don't understand all the, all those convictions and testings, and the heart and the hidden and the unseen.00:49:39.134 --> 00:49:39.775


It is the currency of elevation.00:49:39.795 --> 00:49:40.958


It is not preaching gift.00:49:40.958 --> 00:49:43.210


It's not teaching organizational mind.00:49:43.289 --> 00:49:45.617


Financial stewardship all that stuff is amazing.00:49:46.405 --> 00:49:48.795


You look at any move of God that lasts.00:49:48.795 --> 00:49:52.050


There's a submitted leader.00:49:52.351 --> 00:49:55.617


Yeah, you know what I was thinking about when you're talking about it.00:49:55.617 --> 00:49:59.972


The surprise I've been a senior pastor since I was 21, right.00:50:00.012 --> 00:50:03.967


So I don't think through the lens of as much.00:50:03.967 --> 00:50:17.728


You know, like my role or spot and actually as our church has grown, if you want to be team which I believe, teams win championships if we're going to be winners, right Got to have a team.00:50:17.728 --> 00:50:27.873


Yes, I actually spend a lot more of my time building consensus and helping everyone and and listening to the voice of God.00:50:27.873 --> 00:50:38.646


No mistake, if I know that I'm supposed to, it's like guys okay, we're doing this, absolutely very seldom do I play the god card yes very, very seldom.00:50:38.967 --> 00:50:46.248


I mean, you only get a few you know me, hey, it better be god yeah, that's true, if you're gonna say god, so I'm like man, I really feel this.00:50:46.248 --> 00:50:46.731


Yeah, this could be.00:50:46.731 --> 00:50:48.259


God could be me, if you're going to say God, I'd be like man.00:50:48.400 --> 00:50:48.862


I really feel this.00:50:48.882 --> 00:50:49.385


You know what I'm saying.00:50:50.346 --> 00:50:52.052


Could be God, could be me.00:50:52.746 --> 00:51:01.396


But if you're a leader leaning on overly spiritual language too much, it means you're probably not submitted enough in your heart to the importance of your team.00:51:01.396 --> 00:51:06.849


Because if I'm building with my team, then I don't have to play the God card because the Holy Spirit's only speaking one language.00:51:06.849 --> 00:51:17.226


And if you have to tell everybody you're the leader when you walk in the room, you're probably not the leader.00:51:17.226 --> 00:51:18.271


You're probably not, but I love what I'm hearing.00:51:18.271 --> 00:51:21.280


You say that humility I'm preaching this weekend on Colossians clothe yourself in humility.00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:33.809


So you got to put that coat on every day and that consensus building built, building the, the team into their buy-in our church now and staff as you continue to grow.00:51:33.809 --> 00:51:40.447


I could say thus says the lord right but, because there's so much of not creating.00:51:40.447 --> 00:51:49.811


A father doesn't create codependency, right a father creates adults who have the heart, who, who can execute.00:51:49.811 --> 00:51:53.030


I'm not trying to get them to live at my house the whole time, the rest of their life.00:51:53.030 --> 00:51:54.353


Yes, so so.00:51:54.353 --> 00:51:57.987


So therefore they got opinions and they they, they have ownership.00:51:58.509 --> 00:52:04.967


So there's so much of it is, is is building that into your message you, you, you.00:52:04.967 --> 00:52:17.768


The guitar, yes, it's, it's the harmony, yes, of all of those notes together that make the beautiful song yeah, that's the power of the body of christ, yes, right, and people don't want attachment, they want autonomy.00:52:18.411 --> 00:52:25.985


I want to do what I want, to do when I want to do it I don't want to answer to anybody, and I think that's why you got a lot of people planting churches they couldn't submit.00:52:26.367 --> 00:52:27.088


Wow, true.00:52:27.088 --> 00:52:30.467


So they said I'm submitting here, I'm gonna do my own.00:52:30.467 --> 00:52:31.793


Yeah, someone was saying.00:52:32.315 --> 00:52:45.755


You know, one of the struggles they see in church planters right now is there's a lot of people going that are more went than sent which god is the only one that truly has the matrix for evaluating the heart on that.00:52:45.755 --> 00:52:51.713


But if we had more fathers who were willing to release and sons who were willing to trust?00:52:52.786 --> 00:52:56.556


then we would have a higher success rate of church plants.00:52:56.556 --> 00:52:59.670


Yes, true, I'm new here, guys.00:53:00.666 --> 00:53:10.891


That's in all scopes though, because we were just together a bunch of pastors, and because you are a senior pastor but you are known in a bunch of pastors, and because you're in, you are a senior pastor, but you are known in the body of Christ.00:53:10.891 --> 00:53:18.152


In the creative space, the topic of conversation is well, there's so much you know back to autonomy.00:53:18.152 --> 00:53:22.527


So how do you bring a group of creatives, how do you bring a group of video?00:53:22.567 --> 00:53:23.208


people together.00:53:23.929 --> 00:53:29.099


And I'm telling you I was just with some of these guys have great churches and they're like, well, we've just kind of given up.00:53:29.099 --> 00:53:31.494


You know we're just going to subcontract or buy this.00:53:31.494 --> 00:53:39.670


You can't build a worship team, a video team and this and that and some have needed.00:53:40.994 --> 00:53:50.626


health is not everybody has to work for you to work for you.00:53:50.626 --> 00:54:07.849


But what we're trying to mitigate against is the premature people stepping out before God's fully formed in them what he wants to form in them, and a lot of churches have just given up on that being possible yes, and I think a part of that is pressure to compete with things that have taken 25 and 30 years to build.00:54:08.769 --> 00:54:14.474


You just, you know, leaving a Lakewood stepping into our thing.00:54:14.474 --> 00:54:18.998


Having a national presence already, yay, international.00:54:19.880 --> 00:54:21.882


I can't throw some KJV in there.00:54:21.882 --> 00:54:30.552


So when you just stood on that stage to preach, you just felt powerful, no matter what you felt like yes, well, it's the opposite effect.00:54:32.025 --> 00:54:37.237


You step up on the stage at Lakewood it's like, oh Jesus, what have I got myself into?00:54:37.237 --> 00:54:39.891


It's just, it's a lot to take in.00:54:39.992 --> 00:54:40.875


It's a lot to take in.00:54:41.005 --> 00:54:46.851


But you carry those expectations of whatever that context is Right and you want that immediately.00:54:47.092 --> 00:54:47.786


Right, yes.00:54:48.027 --> 00:54:51.532


And one thing mayo so well helped me with was like he was like torn.00:54:51.532 --> 00:54:52.978


Your church can be a lot of things.00:54:52.978 --> 00:54:55.346


What it can't be is an established church.00:54:55.346 --> 00:55:08.440


Right there you go, liberate yourself in your team yeah from thinking you have to have what took 60 years 30 years to build right now right so we've pulled back.00:55:08.440 --> 00:55:10.364


We don't stream our services.00:55:10.646 --> 00:55:15.315


I went into it with covid brain thinking we have to stream every day one.00:55:15.315 --> 00:55:17.106


Yeah, yeah, yeah and I sat back.00:55:17.126 --> 00:55:18.469


We were first of all.00:55:18.469 --> 00:55:19.371


I was looking at the budget.00:55:20.072 --> 00:55:26.331


Yeah, and cameras are expensive bro yeah, I was looking at that thing, like yeah do we have to stream?00:55:26.471 --> 00:55:32.860


And I started thinking before COVID barely anyone streamed and fewer than that streamed well.00:55:32.860 --> 00:55:35.353


Why is this now an expectation?00:55:35.353 --> 00:55:37.170


So it's backing off.00:55:37.170 --> 00:55:41.777


I'm using that as a small example to back off of external pressure.00:55:42.304 --> 00:55:43.610


We were talking about iteration.00:55:43.610 --> 00:55:45.811


Yes, so your youth group is here.00:55:46.132 --> 00:55:46.313


Yes.00:55:46.545 --> 00:55:49.373


Take the best next step to become better.00:55:49.373 --> 00:55:51.728


Don't, don't, don't.00:55:51.728 --> 00:55:52.951


Start with streaming.00:55:52.951 --> 00:55:55.476


Yeah, right, start with getting a projector that works.00:55:55.476 --> 00:55:56.487


You know what I mean.00:55:56.606 --> 00:55:59.032


Don't hire to solve an immediate problem.00:55:59.032 --> 00:56:03.813


When you could build to solve generations of problems, you'll never, have.00:56:03.813 --> 00:56:06.722


That's the shift, that's the shift.00:56:06.742 --> 00:56:07.385


It's very difficult.00:56:07.385 --> 00:56:07.938


That's the long game.00:56:07.869 --> 00:56:08.817


It's very difficult, that's the long game.00:56:08.817 --> 00:56:12.461


It's very difficult to do, and especially when you have a view.00:56:12.461 --> 00:56:21.798


When I was in a little small furniture store pastoring a church at 23 years old, I didn't really know that I wasn't good.00:56:23.905 --> 00:56:27.211


I went home and I thought I'm the best pastor in America.00:56:27.672 --> 00:56:31.980


But now you know what is good or not good.00:56:32.726 --> 00:56:34.614


The standard seems to be up, it's higher.00:56:35.045 --> 00:56:55.653


But I want to drill back into the heart of that creative leader, that film guy, that these people helping us right now with this podcast, or the people that lead on this stage we're sitting on or whatever obviously we're not where we want to be, but we're not where we used to be and we're further down the road in the commitment to.00:56:55.653 --> 00:56:57.532


I want more for you.00:56:57.532 --> 00:56:59.911


Embrace the process.00:56:59.911 --> 00:57:07.565


You can push, eject and, if that's God's plan for you, you can move to Nashville and you could be the next greatest recording artist.00:57:07.565 --> 00:57:09.507


Maybe, maybe, maybe.00:57:09.567 --> 00:57:09.927


Maybe.00:57:09.927 --> 00:57:12.208


Yeah, that's that, it's a long shot.00:57:12.324 --> 00:57:13.347


We'll press pause right there.00:57:13.427 --> 00:57:13.608


Yeah.00:57:14.489 --> 00:57:23.884


Can you be an actual photographer out there that makes money every weekend doing editorial shoots for Nike and Fossil, and all of that?00:57:23.884 --> 00:57:45.831


Can you, because I know that your friends tell you you can and you think that you deserve that pay, but until you've actually done it, how can you qualify a six-figure salary to hold the camera salary to hold the camera?00:57:45.831 --> 00:57:49.097


That said, we need pastors who may be more analytical than creative, so to speak, who value actual creative gifts.00:57:49.239 --> 00:57:49.699


Exactly.00:57:49.719 --> 00:58:00.744


Because there's not a more misused, overlooked and underpaid group of people in the church than the creative teams.00:58:00.744 --> 00:58:01.264


It's true.00:58:01.264 --> 00:58:11.097


Because creativity is an intangible value add that you don't really see it until it's a cover wrapped around a book.00:58:11.097 --> 00:58:11.579


It's true.00:58:11.579 --> 00:58:26.081


But the creativity that it takes to capture a moment in worship that actually communicates the heart and soul of your church is an actual spiritual gift that's just as valuable as the person putting the spreadsheets together.00:58:26.121 --> 00:58:27.143


So true Sure.00:58:27.349 --> 00:58:34.155


The person doing the spreadsheets has a more tangible expression of their gift, but it doesn't make it more valuable.00:58:34.456 --> 00:58:34.657


Yes.00:58:35.170 --> 00:58:44.184


And so I think the church has hollowed out creative people because they have not appropriately applied value.00:58:44.184 --> 00:58:45.045


That's good.00:58:45.690 --> 00:58:47.297


It's on both sides of the equation.00:58:47.297 --> 00:58:47.800


It's on both sides.00:58:47.800 --> 00:58:48.744


It's on both sides.00:58:48.744 --> 00:58:49.527


That's what I'm trying to get to.00:58:49.527 --> 00:58:50.190


It's on both sides.00:58:50.369 --> 00:58:55.858


You may not be as sweet as you think you are, but if you lock in, you could become more than you ever thought.00:58:55.858 --> 00:59:00.603


Yeah, if you have a pastor that adds value to you and gives you opportunity and resources.00:59:00.784 --> 00:59:19.394


That's so so good and that what you just said is worth the whole podcast, because there's hundreds of leaders out there and again, it isn't just the senior pastor, it's all areas of the church or wherever who are asking is it possible for these people to be used within the church?00:59:19.394 --> 00:59:20.596


Because they, they.00:59:20.596 --> 00:59:22.518


We begin to tell ourselves these narratives.00:59:22.617 --> 00:59:22.878


Yes.00:59:23.117 --> 00:59:24.780


Right, I was just with a group of pastors.00:59:24.780 --> 00:59:29.844


Well, you built a building because you're in Keller, but I'm over here and I have to keep reminding them.00:59:29.844 --> 00:59:31.746


No, actually I didn't build it.00:59:31.746 --> 00:59:43.054


God's provision, through his people, built it.00:59:43.054 --> 00:59:44.880


But I also built one in a small town in Wise County, when I was 23.00:59:44.900 --> 00:59:47.168


God built a building in a place there hadn't been one built since the fifties, so it's all relative.00:59:47.188 --> 00:59:48.713


There's a pros and cons to every environment.00:59:48.713 --> 00:59:56.681


So we in the church are now telling ourselves this narrative A young person can sit with their laptop on a beach in Tahiti and make a hundred thousand dollars.00:59:56.681 --> 00:59:58.052


Why would they ever work for the church?00:59:58.052 --> 01:00:04.635


And that narrative is killing us from what you said yeah, absolutely.01:00:04.949 --> 01:00:07.255


It's on both sides and they feel intimidated.01:00:07.255 --> 01:00:18.800


They feel like I can't connect, I can't talk to him, and I would imagine, from a distance, they'd look at someone like you, torrin, and be like, well, he's a creative, so of course it's going to be easier for him to talk to them and connect with them and get them to feel like he knows where they're coming from.01:00:18.800 --> 01:00:20.465


Has that been your experience?01:00:20.465 --> 01:00:21.688


Are you still in the middle of?01:00:22.228 --> 01:00:22.690


processing.01:00:22.690 --> 01:00:25.197


Well, I would speak to that and just say that's why you need a coach.01:00:25.197 --> 01:00:32.454


Yeah, Like you don't just need a coach to help you with a capital campaign, right, yeah, people are capital.01:00:32.675 --> 01:00:36.418


Yes, that's true, the most important resource you have.01:00:36.478 --> 01:00:37.019


So true.01:00:37.230 --> 01:00:40.771


Really true, important resource you have so truly true, is people, and that's the thing that jesus asked us to take care of.01:00:40.771 --> 01:00:42.333


He said if you love me, feed my sheep.01:00:42.333 --> 01:00:43.896


It's his highest value.01:00:43.916 --> 01:00:47.871


Yes, so I on, I'm in on the building.01:00:47.871 --> 01:00:49.534


We need one we need land.01:00:49.534 --> 01:00:58.978


I'm here to absorb everything that I do not have, and there's a lot I'm lacking, yeah, but there are people who can, just, like this conversation, help you frame.01:00:58.978 --> 01:01:01.202


What do I need?01:01:01.202 --> 01:01:03.264


To be attractive to creatives?01:01:03.284 --> 01:01:04.085


That's great yes.01:01:04.269 --> 01:01:08.219


What do I need to be attractive to minority communities?01:01:08.300 --> 01:01:09.262


in my city, that's great.01:01:09.422 --> 01:01:09.802


It's true.01:01:10.251 --> 01:01:11.673


There are people who will tell you.01:01:11.673 --> 01:01:15.300


You just have to be willing to hear what you don't want to hear.01:01:15.943 --> 01:01:19.963


Exactly true, I asked you that question, did I not?01:01:19.963 --> 01:01:30.514


You did I want to be a church that represents my community, and our community is becoming more diverse in where I live.01:01:30.514 --> 01:01:46.128


But but you gave me a couple of thoughts of things I could do, and I'll, and I'm I want to tell you, just to report, we're making progress as a church, we're getting better at being more representative of our community, and that's because of receiving input from you.01:01:46.148 --> 01:01:56.960


So I want to say thank you, and you asked me a question about church before I was ever even a pastor, like I don't know if that really hits people.01:01:56.960 --> 01:01:58.956


You know what I'm saying.01:01:59.197 --> 01:01:59.398


Yeah.01:01:59.510 --> 01:02:00.956


I've pastored three churches.01:02:00.956 --> 01:02:15.326


This one's going pretty well, and you have the awareness and the humility to ask me who has not built anything outside of a music career which I really can't even take credit for what?01:02:15.326 --> 01:02:17.411


How would you solve this problem?01:02:17.411 --> 01:02:19.960


And the best I could give you at that time was theory.01:02:20.530 --> 01:02:22.557


No, you gave me some very good practicals.01:02:23.090 --> 01:02:27.398


But it just goes to the point of and it had to do with my messaging.01:02:27.789 --> 01:02:36.778


I had the heart, but you can have the heart, but if you don't actually say it or if you don't, you know and you know what the actual you may not remember this.01:02:36.778 --> 01:02:43.780


The actual thing was built around what we were doing in the moment was me asking someone who looks different than me.01:02:43.780 --> 01:02:49.710


Yeah, and, by the way, excluding people is not just on the basis of skin color 100%.01:02:49.710 --> 01:02:51.016


It can be generational.01:02:51.016 --> 01:02:51.317


Yes.01:02:51.389 --> 01:02:52.936


It can be that guy sings songs.01:02:52.936 --> 01:02:54.041


What does he know about what?01:02:54.041 --> 01:02:59.393


I'm doing Right, exactly we can actually we can diminish one of the persons.01:02:59.393 --> 01:02:59.793


Yes, exactly.01:02:59.813 --> 01:03:04.436


Exactly, we can actually we can diminish one of the persons that has something to deposit because we're not curious.01:03:04.878 --> 01:03:20.670


I talk about curiosity a lot, so I'm asking you that and you actually told me, by me validating someone different than me and communicating to my church that I learned I'm not.01:03:20.670 --> 01:03:21.516


This is not a.01:03:21.516 --> 01:03:23.449


It's not a political propaganda speech.01:03:23.931 --> 01:03:25.496


It's not you were saying, you do that.01:03:25.650 --> 01:03:26.954


No, you just need to tell people.01:03:27.195 --> 01:03:27.657


Exactly.01:03:27.849 --> 01:03:43.476


And so I began to start interjecting and having Dr Darius on my podcast, having you on this podcast, showing people, the interfacing and the interaction of people that look different generationally background color, and that's the beauty of the body of Christ.01:03:43.496 --> 01:03:44.297


Yes, exactly.01:03:44.518 --> 01:03:45.219


That's the beauty.01:03:45.380 --> 01:03:45.621


Yes.01:03:45.789 --> 01:03:47.076


And so that's a powerful thing.01:03:47.076 --> 01:03:59.884


What would you okay, I think a lot of this podcast is probably going to be you probably don't go to a lead to win podcast if you're not, at some level, trying to think about.01:03:59.884 --> 01:04:04.672


What are some things I need to be thinking about, and I'm always, I believe.01:04:04.672 --> 01:04:27.610


I do believe anyone who's curious, who's growing, has things they can share with us, but I do believe when you dig down in so if you like, dig down in me I'm going to talk to you about probably winning with your family that's what you and I talk a lot about is you being a new senior pastor, and I think about kids.01:04:27.610 --> 01:04:33.192


And then we talk a little bit about assimilating people, like help, helping them feel a part of the church.01:04:33.192 --> 01:04:36.577


Cause you are so good on the platform, you're great, great.01:04:36.577 --> 01:04:39.903


You asked me the other day how can I coach on your preaching?01:04:40.164 --> 01:04:44.059


yeah, I'm like bro, I like no, I need it.01:04:44.298 --> 01:04:59.019


No, no, I do, I watched no message the other day, like you're, my titles are boring.01:04:59.019 --> 01:05:02.342


You were like go get more pots.01:05:02.342 --> 01:05:07.327


I anyway, anyway, what I, what I'm at, what I'm digging for, I could talk about things.01:05:07.327 --> 01:05:09.518


If you dig with, those are going to come out.01:05:09.518 --> 01:05:12.153


I want in our final moments.01:05:12.153 --> 01:05:18.920


What would you like if you, if you had, if they, if they said this is your moment, this is your microphone?01:05:19.331 --> 01:05:21.797


This is like I want to just give the deposit.01:05:21.918 --> 01:05:27.958


If those people listening we've heard your background, we've learned there's more to it than just hosting the Dove.01:05:27.978 --> 01:05:28.920


Awards.01:05:29.862 --> 01:05:34.420


I think you do good at hosting Dove Awards too, because you're humble, you're kind of self-effacing.01:05:34.420 --> 01:05:38.398


People who are funny are usually people who don't take themselves too serious.01:05:38.398 --> 01:05:39.460


That's all good.01:05:39.460 --> 01:05:40.443


That's not what we're talking about.01:05:40.443 --> 01:05:40.969


What?01:05:41.010 --> 01:05:42.914


would you what would what?01:05:42.954 --> 01:05:43.175


would.01:05:43.175 --> 01:05:51.521


What would you, though, say, man, if, if, if I could just just just share or offer, what, what, what, what would it be?01:05:51.521 --> 01:05:53.376


What was something that just comes out of your heart?01:05:53.891 --> 01:05:54.293


Man.01:05:54.293 --> 01:05:58.027


So many things, so many things.01:05:58.027 --> 01:06:22.416


Um, I think the most critical part of my journey has actually been the moments when I've been most willing to face my own pain, and we just talked about this in the cohort.01:06:22.416 --> 01:06:25.282


Pastor Steve Robinson slayed.01:06:25.282 --> 01:06:29.820


I don't even know if the kids say that anymore, but it was unbelievable.01:06:29.840 --> 01:06:30.583


Wasn't it so good.01:06:31.952 --> 01:06:37.139


The soul of the leader, the soul of the leader and I was trying to communicate it to my wife and I was like there's no way.01:06:37.139 --> 01:06:41.989


And then I went to get the notes and we're going to have to talk to him because I think he's holding back on the notes because he's writing a book about it.01:06:42.010 --> 01:06:43.677


He's going to write a book and everybody needs to get it.01:06:45.114 --> 01:06:46.498


Going to need that book.01:06:46.498 --> 01:06:54.177


It will be a must-have.01:06:54.177 --> 01:07:11.003


He gave me in his grace and provision enough of what he knew other people would value to allow people to give me a chance to lead them.01:07:11.003 --> 01:07:20.460


Because one of my number one questions, going into the particular area we were in, was will white families attend our church?01:07:20.460 --> 01:07:25.838


The flip side to that question might surprise people.01:07:25.838 --> 01:07:31.693


The second one was will black families attend our church?01:07:31.693 --> 01:07:51.688


And it was like very scary of who will allow and what I realized is that God was clothing me in the appropriate experiences and platforms to where it really didn't matter.01:07:52.771 --> 01:08:01.902


I showed up to a place where people had already bought into me, so my ethnicity and my age and all of that was irrelevant.01:08:02.143 --> 01:08:02.342


Right.01:08:03.630 --> 01:08:13.094


Yet his grace in that process, which may appear on some levels to be glamorous and in some ways it it it is and in other ways it's not.01:08:13.094 --> 01:08:36.301


But before we really went into this journey, I had to deal with me and I had just enough success to instigate the process of needing to make sure my heart was whole, not a hole.01:08:36.882 --> 01:08:37.203


Yeah.01:08:44.369 --> 01:08:53.863


And if he would have released me into the season of my life with the same wounds, then this whole thing would, yeah, crumble, yeah.01:08:53.863 --> 01:09:28.600


But in that very important season of gestation of that seed, where the enemy attacks the most like he attacks right before the thing Right he gave me grace to be able to sit down and deal with my heart and the fragmentation of my mind and I didn't have that language for it at the time but to integrate my life Right, and I think that's really what I'm most passionate about.01:09:28.600 --> 01:09:34.402


That's why our Whitestone vision is to help people discover their God authored identity.01:09:34.641 --> 01:09:35.264


Very good.01:09:35.670 --> 01:09:47.400


Because if you're ever going to discover you, you have to discover the god who created you yes and your pain doesn't disqualify you right from being in his presence.01:09:47.400 --> 01:09:51.091


His presence is the place that you actually process it.01:09:51.091 --> 01:09:55.216


Yes, and so that would be my any leader on any level.01:09:55.216 --> 01:10:02.506


Right, you have unprocessed pain, right it's true and especially even in ministry.01:10:02.506 --> 01:10:08.680


Now it's the consistent relentless true pain over and over again.01:10:08.820 --> 01:10:27.800


So tomorrow I'm meeting with the counselor that I started meeting with in 2015, because I'm not dealing with the same issues, but I want to make sure that my heart is whole through this whole process, so good that's what kind of flows out of me?01:10:27.800 --> 01:10:49.016


Good for you like holiness yeah and that's really what holiness means it is a completion of the mind, soul, body, spirit, and so whatever you have to do to get into a space where you can deal with yourself, I think you just have to do it.01:10:49.229 --> 01:10:51.498


That's so incredible, so incredible.01:10:51.498 --> 01:11:09.534


Well, I've learned so much from you, but, for whatever it's worth as an older brother, but for whatever it's worth as a as an older brother, I'm, I'm very proud of you for your, just your posture and I know you behind the scenes.01:11:09.534 --> 01:11:18.851


I'm just, I'm just thankful for your posture and even even you being, us being together for the last little bit, and then you saying, hey, I'm going to go and I want to check this and keeping that purity of heart that's coming out.01:11:18.851 --> 01:11:24.443


And I, just when you were talking, I was thinking about the Samaritan woman, right?01:11:25.989 --> 01:11:28.829


And you talk about pain, right, and how we get so identified.01:11:28.829 --> 01:11:30.497


I was 28 when I started the church.01:11:30.497 --> 01:11:33.198


I was like, well, will anybody with a job come here, right?01:11:33.198 --> 01:11:35.596


Or now I'm on the reverse side.01:11:35.596 --> 01:11:45.645


Right, we go through COVID and I'm a white pastor wanting a more diverse church because I love people period.01:11:46.351 --> 01:11:47.216


I love them right.01:11:47.216 --> 01:11:52.529


And then we got into all these discussions about stuff and I'm kind of like I feel like I'm losing, right.01:11:52.529 --> 01:12:01.061


But at the end of the day, the Samaritan woman story does have a both spiritual and ethnic tension in it.01:12:01.141 --> 01:12:01.682


Yeah, for sure.01:12:02.304 --> 01:12:05.132


It does Major, but it wasn't.01:12:05.132 --> 01:12:12.838


It was not necessarily as religious at first and I don't want to go into all the complexities because I've studied it.01:12:12.838 --> 01:12:15.920


It's actually much more complex than people realize.01:12:15.920 --> 01:12:25.613


It's different than just those people are across the tracks or those people look different, right, but what we have to keep remembering she just needed that water.01:12:26.015 --> 01:12:27.297


Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.01:12:27.297 --> 01:12:28.340


You know what I mean.01:12:28.461 --> 01:12:29.162


And and there's.01:12:29.162 --> 01:12:48.551


There are other factors, but what I'm committed to, and what I see you hear you saying, is we got to keep having that living water and we got to keep being the people that will pass that way for whoever they are, for whatever reason, their pain is there and say, hey, there's a water yeah, yes, yeah that you can get a hold of.01:12:48.652 --> 01:12:56.555


Yeah, for you does not discriminate, it does not and it can come and it'll satisfy you, yes, and so thank you for being on here, awesome.01:12:56.555 --> 01:13:00.502


Awesome man, what a joy we celebrate everything you're doing and, yeah, what a joy.01:13:02.029 --> 01:13:03.072


There will be joy.01:13:03.613 --> 01:13:05.855


And, yeah, your book's coming out.01:13:05.855 --> 01:13:07.018


That's coming this year.01:13:07.018 --> 01:13:12.185


I know you're going to come share with our church a little bit about it and I'm so looking forward to that, may 20th.01:13:12.510 --> 01:13:13.711


May 20th is the release.01:13:13.711 --> 01:13:16.654


Yeah, joy Bomb, we're all excited about it.01:13:16.654 --> 01:13:17.595


Joy bomb Real quick.01:13:17.694 --> 01:13:19.095


So it's just.01:13:19.095 --> 01:13:24.820


It is for people that are trying to fight for joy.01:13:25.121 --> 01:13:25.360


Yeah.01:13:25.822 --> 01:13:31.806


This is not like some feel good like a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down.01:13:31.806 --> 01:13:40.439


This is so the very first thing Jesus talks about in his very first sermon.01:13:40.439 --> 01:13:47.860


Ever that someone wrote down starts with the word blessed yeah, there which we know means happy yes you mean to tell me the son?01:13:47.860 --> 01:13:54.994


Of God starts his entire ministry on the foundational word happy, yes.01:13:54.994 --> 01:14:04.605


And it led me to ask the question how important to the heart of God must human happiness be, if it's the first thing Jesus chooses?01:14:04.626 --> 01:14:05.287


to talk about.01:14:05.287 --> 01:14:06.112


That's so good.01:14:06.171 --> 01:14:09.060


But the way that he shows us to get there.01:14:09.449 --> 01:14:09.671


Yeah.01:14:09.912 --> 01:14:12.680


Is the upside down, opposite, opposite way.01:14:12.680 --> 01:14:14.595


So I'm, I'm.01:14:14.635 --> 01:14:15.197


I love it.01:14:15.197 --> 01:14:16.400


We can't wait, we're excited.01:14:16.400 --> 01:14:17.835


I want to thank both of you guys.01:14:17.835 --> 01:14:19.199


What an incredible conversation.01:14:19.199 --> 01:14:24.480


I want to thank you guys for watching and we look forward to you guys joining us next time for the Lead to Win podcast.