Natalie Grant on Serving & Leading with an Authentic Heart

0:00 A lot of our modern worship songs have put ourselves at the center. All of a sudden, you're like this is how I, this is what he does for me, this is how I feel about it. And that is a dangerous place to be, because then it all of a sudden makes worship about what we're getting out of it instead of really what it is is what we are giving to God. We think that we know the definition of what is winning. I would have said, like, if I get to do what I want to do and do it well and succeed at it, if I get to do what my passion is and succeed at it, then I'm winning. Now I would say, you know, just in maturity in the Lord, if I, whatever I do, whether it's what I wanted to do or if it's what I didn't want to do, but I get to the end of it and I'm still sold out for Jesus and I have my integrity, then I feel like I've won.

0:58 Well, I want to welcome you to the Lead to Win podcast, where we help leaders win in the areas of life that matter the most. We're joined today by Natalie Grant matter the most. We're joined today by Natalie Grant special guest. We're so glad to have you here. If you don't know, natalie is a five-time Dove Award winner for the Female Vocalist of the Year. She's a nine-time Grammy nominee. She's incredible, but you spent this weekend we just finished with you helping us lead services all weekend, leading worship for our team. Thank you so much for being here with us and helping us in that way. Pastor Jeff, I know you're passionate about helping leaders win, and having a leader like Natalie come in and give her experience and her understanding this is something that really is important to you. Well, I love we were talking about it.

1:38 I love preaching and I love the things that go with what I do, but I'm passionate about coaching people and helping them win and I think sometimes what a coach does is they give you permission to prioritize stuff that matters but maybe you don't know that it's that important to you, and to prioritize things that you'll care about later. So I was just honestly particularly refreshed by you coming here, because I think those are amazing things God's done it all the awards and the songs that we love. I said this. We were at a conference and I had the honor of coming out after she led this amazing worship set that everyone was moved by, and I said this having never really met her, but I honored her in front of everybody by saying I love that you wrote songs, you sing songs.

2:32 There's been this emphasis, especially recently, about Jesus. How did that happen? Was that intentional that you ended up with just this whole collection? of songs. And then I decided I was going to have her come to our church and do that because why should I say that to a bunch of other people? Our church loved having you here and it's because not just the songs or the music, it's also your heart for the local church. I want to talk a little bit about that, but tell us a little about your experience at Milestone. First of all, knowing you, not for a long time but I can tell that those are your passions because I've been around your team all weekend, who are a bunch of winners, Literally. I mean that you can tell they're passionate about what they do.

3:13 You can tell they're well-led because you can tell a lot when you come into a church and the people that are serving don't seem exhausted. You know what I mean. Sometimes we can all get tired in what we're doing because church is a lot and it takes a lot. It takes a lot of our energy. But when you are around somebody and you're four services in and they are still just as excited and they're backstage saying, come on, we're giving it everything we have for this next one and I'm like they're the same in service four as they were in service one and that tells me everything I need to know about how well they are led. And thank you for what you said about the Jesus-centric worship leading.

3:53 Isn't that what worship is? You would think so. Right, it's a little bit concerning, as a worship leader, for so many years to be going. Oh man, we have to bring worship leaders back to songs about Jesus. But you know it's funny as you think about. I think about songs that have lasted the I mean past the test of time, right, hymns you think about a mighty fortress is our God. God is the center of the song. Great is thy faithfulness, how great thou art. We're talking about songs that have been around for a hundred you know, 150, 200 years, and those songs have one central theme there, you go God, Jesus is the center. Somehow, when you look at modern worship, which I love, but a lot of our modern worship songs have put ourselves at the center.

4:40 All of a sudden, you're like this is how I, this is what he does for me, this is how I feel about it, and that is a dangerous place to be, because then it all of a sudden makes worship about what we're getting out of it, instead of really what it is is what we are giving to God. God is worthy of our praise, whether we feel like it in the moment. Yet how kind is our God? That something only he is worthy of? As we give it, he does allow it to be used for our good. Do you think that some of that shift came from? Now we have marketing? And now this is actually something that so when someone goes to write a song, they may not be necessary. They might actually have that as a big part of where their thought process is.

5:22 What would be-. We have the business of worship. What's the best felt, what would be? We have the business of worship now. What's the? best felt need. Right, we have the business of worship. Let's sing about anxiety, exactly so what's going to sell. What's going? To hit the mark. What's going to get played on the radio? You know what's going to. And then all of a sudden it does. You realize. You know our pastors as as we were writing songs at our church in Nashville and their challenge to us was at this songwriting camp, we don't want a single, we want one song. It doesn't mention you, I me one time. It's only Jesus, and it was actually funny. That was hard. It was all of a sudden like oh wait a second If I take me out of the equation and all of a sudden you're like okay, let's get into the word, let's make sure we have songs that are based on the word and are theologically sound, and I think some of it.

6:13 You can look back over the last few years and go oh, you know, I don't mean to bag on modern worship because it's a beautiful thing, but the business of worship and the act of worship are two different things. Right, that's really good. Right, there's a beautiful thing, but the business of worship and the act of worship are two different. That's really good, right. There's a difference between a genre of music and something that's an action or a posture that we have before God. That's a really great insight. Yes, which is music's only a part of, but it's not the whole right. Right, but it is a big part of it. It's a big part of it Well. I'm glad that the two of you are together and for people watching, you know the intentionality with which both of you lead and when a worship leader and a pastor are talking together and thinking about the dynamic of your relationship, because I really think it's one of the most important relationships in a church.

6:53 Pastor Jeff, can you talk a little bit about this relationship and how thinking not just go out there and sing songs whatever songs you like but working together, thinking about how those songs create a culture in the church and really shape the values of what the people in the church actually believe? Help us understand how that works Well and culture eats strategy for breakfast right, so you can have the best lights and the best songs, but the culture so you were speaking about our culture and you, making a big connection with Betsy, who had some recording contracts, was kind of on her way showed up at a church I was pastoring in the middle of West Texas. We really needed help and I said to her you're not going to sing any and I needed someone who could sing.

7:36 I was like you're not singing anything for six months, I'm going to be your pastor. I became her pastor that day because she knew that I wanted the best for her and her family. Her husband became our youth pastor, and it wasn't about I wanted more for them than I wanted from them. Right, beautiful, and that's why I still 24, 25 years later she's still with me, Right Because? and I think what's really tragic is I end up in rooms and I have a heart for pastors. That's why we do this podcast to help them win. They haven't had conversations with their worship leader. They don't feel like they're there. You are the chief worship leader, and then how do you? Why is there so much separation between the pastors and the worship leaders?

8:17 You're now at a position where you've looked at this a long time. I love this about you you grew up in church. You're a church girl. You love church. You're part of your church. You've talked to me more about your church than you have your music right. Which is a great thing. It's an amazing thing right, and so what would you say to pastors? Right, Sometimes we need to hear it from the other seat right Point of view, your point of view. If you were talking to a bunch of pastors, what would you say to them? To be like, what should I do if I feel like this is an unhealthy area of my church? This is such a passion for me and I love that you're asking me about it because there is such a divide between pastors and their worship leaders.

8:58 And it's a weird thing because that, to me, is one of the most important relationships in the church. You have to have a relationship and a friendship. You know creatives, especially when it comes to worship leaders and band. We're creatives right. Right, we're a sensitive bunch. We wear our hearts on our sleeve, we're looking for affirmation, oftentimes a senior pastor. He is task-oriented, he's got a list of things that he wants done and accomplished and I think that breakdown of just relationships. So, from a pastoral side, taking a moment to build them up, build up your worship leader, give them affirmation, tell them they're doing a great job.

9:47 But, more than that, be in communication about what it is that you are hoping, what set vision, cast vision for the worship team. I think you know. For me as a worship pastor in a church, it is so troubling to me to go into places and see that a team never sits in a service Like they sit in a green room or they sit? How do you even know how to serve what your church is doing? What if God speaks differently in service two than he did in service one? What if Holy Spirit's doing something a little bit different and you're not in tune to actually know what? You're just kind of stuck on that. This is what we're doing and we're just going through our motions.

10:29 What would happen if, all of a sudden, there was this synergy between pastor and worship pastor? and they were on the same page, and I think that part, as if your worship team is not sitting in your services, um number one. Pastors, change that, change that. Change that about your culture, because they're not there to just do a job. They're actually a part of the family and I think making sure that they're included. Also, worship leader has been elevated to a place that it's so for worship pastors that might be listening, you are not the most important person in the church and that part of elevated worship leader, elevated platform, elevated we've kind of got this whole weird thing going on in the church of we had the moment of elevated pastor, right.

11:16 Rockstar, pastor, rockstar. Now we have rockstar worship leaders. And it's just these moments where there's always going to be a vying for a spotlight that does not belong in the church, and I think that that comes through relationship. That's not going to come through dictator dictating. That comes through relationship. So, to me, pastors you should be meeting with if you can't do it every week, at least every other week. That's how we do it. We have a Zoom if we can't meet in person, but every other week I'm sitting on a Zoom with my senior pastors and they are casting vision for the worship pastor and for myself and they want to hear about our team and they want to hear about how it's going, and then they want to tell us this is where church is going in this next month.

11:58 This is what we're going to do, and I think that that relationship and constant communication that I have access to the senior pastor and the senior pastor has permission to speak in to the flow and how it's going that is going to make the biggest difference in this birthed out of relationship. I mean people see our atmosphere. Obviously, I talked about Betsy and I and Tyra and my wife and we started the church. Brandy and Betsy have you know it's family of relationships and then the people that come along, that are part of our team, that have been here. Some, you know, came at 19, 16, 17, growing up. Now we have this whole generational thing right. So when we do. I always tell pastors they should watch Next Gen Weekend at Milestone.

12:39 Don't watch my weekend. Watch on Labor Day weekend every year we do Next Gen. Watch my weekend Watch on Labor Day weekend. Every year we do Next Gen. We've got 7, 8, 9, 10, 15-year-olds leading and just doing amazing things, and so a lot of people get a better vision of our church by looking at that. But I can say this with all transparency and validity Probably at least 44 to 46 Mondays of a calendar year. For 22 years I've sat with my worship team and leaders on Monday for lunch. Yes, For that amount of time. See, that tells me everything too. You can sense that in your team Exactly.

13:20 People want what you have, but they're not willing to do what you did. Well, I can say it on your behalf, because I'm in those meetings with you and it's not just you and Betsy, our worship leader, because she's the only one. It's young leaders in there. You're bringing them up along and you're communicating to them, because I'm listening to you and I think what you're saying is so true. The lead pastor, the worship leader, can begin to be a performer, as opposed to a servant who's leading the people. We're not performers who are doing the things that we're interested in. We're serving the people on behalf of God, and you set that tone. So the young leaders are coming up in that same context, because that's the expectation that you set, but you're also modeling. What do you think about? Another thing that I've noticed is okay. So I came here to Dallas-Fort Worth, 28 years old, started a church and there's all these great churches you know, and and, and I'm like, what am I doing here?

14:07 In fact, I was driving down the Boulevard, you know, right here by our main Keller campus, and I noticed there's a lot of chicken. There's like seven chicken places on one road. Okay, it's like Chicken Express, chick-fil-a, zaxby's. And I just had this kind of God thing. I was like there's a lot of chicken. And I felt like the. Holy Spirit said if you're going to build a church here, you need to know what chicken you're serving. Right and in the area of worship, because now the exposure to it, when I go to different churches and stuff, I sometimes feel like they're not singing the songs that meet the culture and they're not serving the chicken to the people that are coming to get Chick-fil-A. They have now seen advertised this over here and it's kind of become easier to have a messaging and a music and a culture that doesn't fit with your context.

14:58 You know what I mean. It's like you're leading in Nashville right. Nashville's different than where I'm at or like some, worship leader in New York may need to have a different context. You're downtown, you guys built a church, you know, in a downtown, I'm in a suburban context. What do you think about music choice for worship leaders, like if you were leading a church? Think about that worship leader out there. How do you make choices about the songs you do sing? Well, I think number one this does come back to me to worship leaders and worship teams that are not in a service, because if you're not even going to the service, if you're not plugged into what God is doing, how do you even know the culture of the house that you're in?

15:42 Number two I know it's really easy for me to say because I am in Nashville with a bunch of incredible musicians. You're in Dallas-Fort Worth area. So many musicians and so many churches don't have that at their disposal, so they hire out right. But when you're hiring just a professional to come in, then that is kind of what you're going to get. You know what I mean. You're going to get somebody that just kind of comes in does the it's a gig, it's a gig. And it's not the same thing. But when you're actually in tune with the Holy Spirit, I would I would rather have less talent and heart that I know this person is pursuing God. They're not pursuing platform, they're actually pursuing God. So when they're not on a platform, they're in the word, they're actually asking Holy Spirit to speak and then, all of a sudden, they they're growing, they're learning, they're having discernment and they're in communication with the senior pastor, who's like setting vision, casting vision, and they're moving together, um, you know, as one in unity, and I think that that's where you begin to learn.

16:41 Okay, this is going to work, you know, and not every service is the same. You might be at some church, like I'll go into some churches that you're like they have a contemporary service and then they have. So I know for this one I'm going to do some hymns because, my parents might be the kind of people that are in this room and that's what's going to actually help them feel like they've entered into the presence of God. That's really. Our job really is to help people enter into the presence of God and to set the table for the word of God to penetrate hearts. That's good, that's really our job. We're not singing there for us to be impressive to everyone who follows us on Instagram. No, we're singing to glorify. God and help the people connect with.

17:22 God, which is a totally different posture than oh, I want to look relevant or I want to look cool. It's I want to honor God. This is so good. And I think, too, you hit on the hired hand. I think every pastor, if I were saying, probably one of your biggest choices in the creative area, worship and all of it is, am I going to have hired hands or sons and daughters? So which path you choose will have a lot to do, and there could be some go well, I like hired hands because I don't want to meet with them and I want them just to do. I don't want to talk to them. And I'll let them do their thing as long as the music's good, but you're not going to have heart a compromising heart. If you do that, I've chosen, just as you guys.

18:03 We choose not hired hand, we choose. You have to come, you have to go through the process, you go through the grow track. You have to become part of the house right. And I thought one thing that was funny because you just got off your Christmas tour with Danny Gokey. You're like Danny Gokey was serving in the parking lot. Yeah, he was on parking team. That's amazing, that's really rare, that doesn't happen everywhere, but that is what you? that culture of saying hey, I see your gift and we're not being silly, right. We see that gift and we want to not use your gift, but we want you to be able to use something God put in you. But also I want to know that you're willing to serve. I want to know that your buy-in is to whatever the need is right.

18:44 I went to this church years ago and you guys probably know the church I was in this singing group called Truth years ago and we went to this church in Palm Beach, palm Beach Gardens, christ Fellowship as it was called back then. Okay, and it was Tom Mullins, so Todd his dad. He's like a spiritual father to me, coach Tom. I'm going to tell you a story. He'll be here the next couple of days. I did not know that I've not seen him in 30 years. I was just with him the last two days. I will tell you the story and you can tell him, because it marked me forever. Okay, good, we'll tell him. We show up at the church and when you're in truth, you did all the jobs. So I mean you had, you were didn't just get up to sing you set up everything.

19:25 You had to clean the bus, you had to do all the things. And we came into this church and we were. The girl's job was to set up the merchandise table, so we're sort of the thing. And I was going to use the restroom and it was broken. The toilet was clogged and somebody're fixing the toilet and out walks the pastor and he was unclogging the toilet and that I was like that's the senior pastor of this church that saw a need and said I can fix that, I can step in and fix that. I think that posture, that heart posture of where can I step in? Not what do I want to do, but where can I serve that? That?

20:05 heart. Posture changes everything and that filters down through the whole thing If we love the people, then they love others, and you love your staff, then they love the people. It's not complicated, right? But I want to ask both of you because I think you know on behalf of pastors. I think they feel a pressure Because when we all started in ministry you weren't being compared to every church out there. Now, because worship teams tour and people from a different church. You might be in a brand new startup church, but you go see this worship band and now you're feeling like, well, why doesn't our church have that? And so pastors feel a pressure. What would you say to a pastor who's just starting out, who's feeling the pressure of like we got to get our worship up on a level where we could, where someone would give? us a look. I think you hit the nail on the head.

20:47 I'm going to choose heart over skill. I'll play a tape, remember we used to play tapes. We don't play tapes anymore, but I'll be like I'll play a cassette and Betsy and I and some of us along the way, we'll be like you know what We'll just preach the Bible and we'll play a tape. I sang the backup tracks, that's what I sang forever, but you've got to know that's not celebrated. That's a radical approach. Yes, but you know, I think, that heart of going. You said something. You said how are people going to give us a look? Well, first of all, why are we caring if people are giving us a look? Right? What are we doing to change the kingdom? How are we serving wherever we are? How are we serving the community we're in or the city we're in or the neighborhood we're in?

21:30 How are we serving that? Because, honestly, that single mom that's just trying to keep going, she could care less whether your song's on the radio, she don't care she don't care if you lead a song like Elevation. She cares that you care about her when she comes in. She goes gosh. This is giving me something that's going to make me make it through my week. I can go through my week because of what's happening in this house. That's so good, but that's a missiological way to view the world. Most pastors are just thinking about what are other pastors doing and how do I get in that group, as opposed to Jesus, help us. Yeah, yeah, get us back. But, you're with the people. You know what that sounds like to the single mom, because you've obviously spent time with the single mom instead of just living amongst other artists who are just talking amongst themselves about what they find intriguing.

22:19 So so the lead to win podcast. This is so good because again, we're re reframing what winning is right. So the motto of the concept of winning that I did my doctoral dissertation on in the lives of men is that we all have a scoreboard. And the concept is that the worst thing in life is not to have less points on a scoreboard, but to light the scoreboard up and realize you played the wrong game. You played the wrong game. You played the wrong game. So what we're saying to pastors is like what is winning right? And what you're saying is if you have a bunch of people who sing really well and the performance is good but the heart's not there, and sick, or even if I grow fast, cancer grows fast.

23:04 Fastest growing may not be the win, right you follow. Yeah, I actually say that all the time, even about to artists for their career just because you hit it big? Yes, I don't want to hit it overnight, right, I want to still be here. 25 years, 30 years. I want the longevity I want the long game yes I don't want that quick win. Right the long win. You want the long game win. I'm a long game person. So for you. So you and I just spent time even talking about kids, right yeah, and your daughters, and connecting, because I'm now a granddad. So you get together and you talk about stuff. That's the stuff you care about. That's what you care about. Yes, we probably had more people in church this weekend than we've ever had.

23:50 Probably you know cause you were here. But, in essence, like I'm not anything different because, oh, there were a few thousand more people at church right. At the end of the day, I'm still a dad, a husband, a grandpa. I care about my team, the people that I'm helping, Right? So what would you say to somebody, whether it's an artist, a pastor, a worship pastor, cause? I think we have to also speak to college students. We have our college students listening to this young leaders feeling called, what would you look back and say to yourself, you know, to your 20-year-old self now, what would you say about what winning really is? Wow, that's a really deep, heavy question, because we think that we know the definition of what is winning right and I would say probably I would have said like, if I get to do what I want to do and do it well and succeed at it if I get to do what my passion is and succeed at it then, I'm winning.

24:43 Now I would say, you know, just in maturity in the Lord, if I, whatever I do, whether it's what I wanted to do or if it's what I didn't want to do, but I get to the end of it and I'm still sold out for Jesus and I have my integrity, then I feel like I've won. You know what I would say? You've always had that philosophy, because I think when we talk to younger leaders, you've talked to me, we've been having conversations you're talking about. Well, I started doing this and then I served at this church and my husband was serving and we met. You said you went to the first church. You're this Dove Award, grammy Award.

25:25 You said they let me lead the choir. You know which you said now for people, because you and your husband lead the discipleship for worship leaders at your church, you make them sing in the choir. And if they say we won't start with choir. And you don't get to do that, you're out. That's a red flag, it's a big flag. It's a big red flag. Yeah, it's a big flag. But so to that young leader, I think it's even more so that narrative. You said if I can do what I love, if I do what I'm—. Yes, I'm not called to that. I'm not good at this and they think that there's this utopian world you spent a lot of years— yes —being. But you served as a choir.

26:10 You said you were cleaning the bus. You were doing the okay. So that young leader, what do you say to them? Like you have to be. It's an indication of whether you can handle that, if you're willing to do it. And I want to be careful not to speak about a generation as a whole, because my daughters who may listen to this. They have my daughter. My twin daughters are 17 and it's a real hot button for them when people speak against their generation. They're like. Why does everybody say that about our generation? They don't even know me. This generation is blah blah, blah, and I think that automatically makes us seem old. This generation is. But, with that being said, I do think that we have, um, you know, as a musician, as a creative, I'm thinking we've got like a microwave mentality of get on a american idol and then you can be a star get on the voice and you can do whatever get on youtube yes get on tiktok yes, and all of a sudden, you have millions of followers and brand deals, and so you don't actually have to put in the work, right?

27:11 you just got to get something viral. Yes, you know. And then if it doesn in the work, you just got to get something viral you know, and then if it doesn't go viral, there's just kind of like well you know, people don't have the same grit because they don't have that modeled for them. I think that that I do believe God gives dreams and I believe that he puts passions in us that he wants us to follow. But what is if it? If it comes easy, if it didn't cost you anything, then why were you going to stick with it? It cost me to do this. I had to take jobs I didn't want to do and still pursue the thing that God put in my heart. I had to go through a record deal and then it went out of business. And then I got another record deal and then it went out of business and I was like, actually, maybe I was supposed to be a school teacher after all.

27:55 And then I got another record. It's like you just you keep, you have to have that. You know, my husband says no plan B. If you have a plan B, you'll do it. You have to have a plan A and you have to go. God, this is my plan A, but whatever I have to do to work hard to continue getting me to plan A, that's the part is we, we kind of want something quick and easy and overnight, but that does not build in you what it takes to go the distance. And I can literally look back and say, goodness, the artists that came out when I start. none of them are even in music anymore, you know and and I thank God that 25 years in, you know I'm still getting to do it, I'm still getting to make music and I feel grateful for it.

28:41 But it wasn't just by accident. Right, you're using words. I mean you're talking about concepts like faithfulness, stewardship, character, in like the secret place, and I don't think that's a and to your daughter's credit, that's not a generational problem, that's a human problem. Human beings want things instantly. They just have more avenues than probably we had when we started. And creatives want to be able to immediately, you know, because they've been told and a lot of well-intended, well-meaning parents and teachers and maybe even us have told them follow your dreams and follow what you're passionate about. So if they don't feel direct passion to something they're like, I'm not going to do that because they're not appreciating. Like we had to learn a lot of ways and, like you said, stewardship, faithfulness, grit, doing things that you didn't choose to do because of the development process.

29:28 Well, and I think too you know sometimes, at least when grew up, and I don't know what it was like for you guys but I got really spooked out by the will of God. I thought I was going to make a mistake. So I was scared to do certain things because I was like well, I hear all the time and I think about young leaders or young people who might be listening to this that are so afraid of making the wrong decisions, so they're actually paralyzed by which way to go. I even think about that right now, about one of my daughters who's kind of paralyzed about well, I don't really know what and it feels like such a big decision and I don't know. The truth is, god has actually going to work his will out. Whatever you do, he's going to work his will out, as, whatever it is that you're doing, it's not a destination or one thing or one place, it's a lifestyle.

30:14 He says in Romans 12, right. I urge you therefore, brethren by the mercies of God, so he will work it out if you're submitted to him, if you'll submit and you'll say if you'll be a willing living sacrifice then he will prove out his acceptable yes so. I think you're right. I mean, we also in our time we didn't have as many options available in our decision process Right. So now you kind of have a way to look and see and analyze and a lot of back in the old you just kind of like whatever step was available. Yes, exactly, you know what I mean. But when you do say okay, so I am going to take that step. Whatever that passion is that God's put in you and I'm going to take that step.

30:56 It also might mean that you have to get a job at Starbucks Right. Which is okay or you have to get a job at, or I worked at Medicare when I first moved to Nashville. I didn't like to do accounts payable, but it turns out I could do it Sure, and it helped me pay my bills. Yes, I wasn going to become an artist, and just I had to actually get a job and work at something I didn't love. But whatever you're doing, work at it with all of your heart as for God, not for man. And when you just choose. Wherever you are, work at it with all of your heart. God is actually going to work it out. It's not like some magic thing, but when you are faithful, he will prove himself faithful to you. It's so good. It's like you're talking about the artist that you started out with, sometimes doing well initially, being promoted beyond the character you have to sustain.

31:42 It is what we all want, but it's not what we need. It doesn't help us in the long run no, no, no. So what are you just kind of wrapping up and thinking a minute, what are you currently passionate and kind of? What do you see for the next few years? What do you see for church, for music? Is there things God's been showing you? What are you passionate? What do we see on the horizon? Give us some of your thoughts. I really do think that there is currently a call in where, first of all, I think that God is weeding some stuff out, and you can just see that in general in just the church at large, where we've kind of been distracted, no matter who you are, what you believe, what side of whatever you're on, Jesus is like I'm still the center.

32:26 I'm still the center and I think that you can feel this moment that's happening where, in the American church especially, god's been cleaning house for his glory and for our good, and I think that I can sense that in worship music as well, this elevating of worship, leader of worship, business of worship. God's like he's turning over tables and you can kind of feel that like, oh, I've let this go, but now enough is enough and this. So when you say, you know, I don't think you understand what that means to me, to have you say Jesus has been at the center, when you're doing that because I actually that is what I feel God is speaking is that there's coming a moment where there's Jesus is coming back to the center and he's always been there.

33:19 We haven't always realized that he's still right there at the center, and I feel like that, that returning in our songwriting, in our churches, in our focus as the church I'm not talking about just me, I'm talking about the church at large A return to holiness, a return to holy living, a return to the things that matter, remembering the role of pastor and servant leader. We somehow got them out of order, we put it at number one and really we're all in this to serve Christ and I feel like that is actually what god is speaking. I love it isn't there. I feel, this kind of move toward authenticity yes less produce perform not, we have to have.

34:07 There is a production element right, because we used amplified sound and whatever, and this has lights well, and we have people right now that people can't see but they're behind a camera. We couldn't do it without them To make it more enjoyable experience. But if I might say not meaning to, but where it maybe becomes disingenuous or plastic or sort of the form without the spirit and heart sort of the form without the spirit and heart. I think I, just I sense that that's I don't know people, just even people that they're hungry for genuine, real God less show. And I know this weekend I don't know if you feel it, but we're having a few days of focus and prayer and worship and the people are hungry.

34:54 I think that that is what I would say. I felt it here, having a few days of focus and prayer and worship, and the people are hungry. I think that that is what I would say. I felt it here, I felt it everywhere in this last year where I went. There's a hunger in people for the real encounter with the real Jesus. It's not just about a church or going, showing up somewhere or a religion, or it's like we want something real and you can feel that and you can definitely feel the hunger in your people here. Thank you for coming and investing in us. Thank you for everything you do. And we've just, it's just been great to. I think you, I think in hope and pray, even your words will inspire. Who knows that there's a future generation out there? There's maybe some pastors and, and you know that worship part of it is a big part, as you said, it's not the most important part.

35:37 If this time together could bring some unity and some clarity and help churches, I think it's all worth it. Well, and I thank you just in sitting here for these few moments in this podcast there's a. There's a lot of podcasts on leadership and a lot of pastors who are doing podcasts, but what you can sense that you're doing is you're wanting to instruct leaders with that heart for Christ, that authentic heart, and that component is you're not a formula. And I really appreciate and respect that. Thank you for not coming with formula, thank you for coming with Jesus. Thank you so much. Well, on behalf of our team, I want to thank you guys both for this amazing conversation.

36:20 I learned a lot, and I know you helped all of us, as leaders, learn how to win in the thing that matter most, and so we're so grateful for both of you taking the time to do this. We thank you, guys, for joining us. We look forward to seeing you on our next episode.