Michael Miller | Stop Building Someone Else's Calling

Old Friends And Shared Roots

SPEAKER_00 0:12

So I'm excited, Michael Miller.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

Pastor Jeff.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Good to be with you. Actually, I think one of the things people may be surprised by, we we started going down memory lane here, right? So we we have a connection. This is kind of interesting, I think. Brianna, who's who's on our team here, been on your team for a long time. She actually was the first person to move here when when we got ready to start milestone 2002. She had come into our church in Abilene that I pastored. You went to school at ACU?

SPEAKER_02 0:47

Abilene Christian. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

So you were you were Abilene Christian, you knew Brianna. You also knew Eddie, who is now her husband, but they were not in that connection.

SPEAKER_02 0:57

An unlikely match, man. When they fell in love, it was like, what?

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Brianna was like the holy church. She was mother Teresa.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

He was Al Capone, man. And and uh yeah, she was like my little sister, just um just so sweet, loved Jesus. And then she connected with you guys, and I watched her fall deeper in love with Jesus. Uh-huh. But it was a different tradition than what I grew up in.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Well, she came to our she so she was actually like like kind of developing into I know there's a lot of shifts that had happened, right? But a denomination like her as a female being a part of like some things, okay. So she was, but she actually came to our church to a uh young adult service and had like a back issue and got healed. That was the catalyst. That adds up, yeah. Then she started she started serving, and then I I my pastors were like, okay, you can go plant this church. So I invited her to my office and I'm like, hey, do you want to have you ever thought about planting a church? That was from Abilene to Fort Worth. Yeah, it's coming coming to where we are now. And she was like, No, I've never even fathomed that. But she was the first person to move here and get a job before the rest of the team, even before I got here. So she a lot of people don't know that. She's so she still works with me right every day, part of the team, helped you, helped us get set up. Yeah, amazing. Eddie, she brought Eddie. Eddie introduced me to all his friends, you being one of them. Yeah. So we were we you and I were in Eddie and Brianna's wedding. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

And uh because I had moved from Abilene to my first pastorate here in town in the mid-cities, and you guys moved to the mid-cities, and so I was around you guys, but I didn't really understand y'all. I was pretty isolated in my little church world, but I was so intrigued by the fruit of her life and even seeing the change in Eddie when he started running with you guys. It was the fruit of what you were leading. I was like, man, uh, I don't get it all, but I I see the fruit and their love for Jesus. It was just really powerful.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Yes. So then we Eddie pulls out the wedding picture because we were I I did the wedding. Yeah,

Wedding Photos And Preacher Tie Talk

SPEAKER_00 3:10

you were one of his grooms, but we were all kind of hanging out, you know. And I mean, you you still look you look still pretty the same. You got a little more gray in the beard.

SPEAKER_02 3:20

Some wrinkles, some gray.

SPEAKER_00 3:21

Not a lot of wrinkles. You got a you got a little Hollywood look feel. Got good hair.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

Oh man.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

I lost a few pounds since then. I I I um I had to daisy chain my neck extenders to give it that because I had what I call the chinchilla. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When a preacher gets the tight neck, the the the the chinchilla. You were kind of overflowing right now. Overflow. And I I didn't know this, you don't know that because you don't you're not a real big guy, you know. You you've got a little bit of the middle-aged thing going, I can tell, just a touch, but not a lot. The table covers it, bro. Don't uncover me.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

But yeah, here's a trick if you ever end up there. You can take those neck extenders, you can weave them together and put two to three to create a broader for the old preacher tie.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Do you ever wear a preacher tie? No, I have not worn a preacher tie in a minute. Have you ever preached in a tie at upper room?

SPEAKER_02 4:20

I don't think I've ever worn a tie to the upper room, much less preacher tie. Ever, ever, ever, ever wore a tie. I don't think.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

There would be occasion to wear that would actually be a new radical thing, though. Like that could be something new.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

I the the edge I go, I'll wear a blazer at Easter.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

I'm gonna tell you this. It's not even a church if you don't wear a tie at some point.

unknown 4:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:46

I I have one tie for for for the wedding I do, and I don't do a lot of weddings, but I have one tie. I dare you.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

I dare you. Do you wear a tie? No, yeah. But still get off me. But I have worn one here. One time. I think it was a funeral or something. No, but how about you? I'm I'm giving this to you as a bigger. No, I think it would break the internet. It's like if you got up there in a full-blown deal, I think it would be fun. I will send you a pick.

SPEAKER_02 5:14

I'll try to do that this year. I'll work it in. But the the extent of my fashion, my fashion consultant's my 14-year-old right now. Yeah. So she's like, Dad, that drip, no. I was like, you gotta figure out what a drip is. What is a drip? It's your it's your fit. It's your fit. I think so. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

She anyway, she's she's you gotta be careful using their slang because when my kids were 14, 15, I used a few of their words that I thought were just cool. No. No, they meant they meant bad things sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

Like I said, some preaching and they're like, that's not that's that that word is a new you gotta you gotta kind of watch.

SPEAKER_02 5:50

And it all it all recycles like the the wide pants are in now. I'm wearing Birken stocks, which I wore in the 90s. It's just there's nothing new under the sky.

Late Night Prayer And Early Risk

SPEAKER_00 6:00

You're wearing them today. I saw them. That's pretty powerful. Yeah, yeah. It was a flex. It was a flex. So you I was I was trying to recruit you. You did try to recruit me. 100%.

SPEAKER_02 6:11

But you were a little, you were out there at the time for me. Uh no, you did. You did.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

I'm trying to get you over here and with me because you got a good personality, you know? You get you got a very, you got a very endearing personality.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

I've I've I to see what God's done with milestone from where it was is a sign and a wonder. Like how God's using you and the number of people impacted in the Metroplex by this community. It's it's it's it's just out of front row seat to see where it was to where it is today, it's incredible.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

So the church you were serving at had like an old wedding chapel north of here. And you guys, you know, big props to that that church. They let us use that. We didn't have any money. We would go there on Friday night to pray and pray from 10 to sometimes two to three in the morning. We called it push, pray until something happens. Nothing was happening. So we needed to pray.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

I called it push. Yeah, I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_02 7:13

That's funny. Yeah, I gave you the key. I didn't use it.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

You didn't come back then. But Brienne, now you're leading all these prayer movements. I know.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

You know, only I would have known showing up. No, I've I've come a ways in my journey. But uh I I have such fond memories of you guys and just again the fruit, the fruit of young people that were attached to what you were leading. I mean, and the fact that Brienne is still with you, it's insane.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

That's awesome.

The Call To Pioneer In Dallas

SPEAKER_02 7:40

Really cool.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

So, what I want to talk about, because I think I think we are we we have a college, we have a lot of young people, we have when we have people, teachers, you know, I the only I bring up teachers because I get several teachers and principals saying, hey, I get a lot from the podcast. I think we have people, you know, business leaders, we have a lot of pastors and staff members from churches. And um, and I think, you know, pioneering something. So when when you and I were together not too long ago, and I was just drawn to that, that, that season where God said, go to Dallas, you know, I think a lot of people don't always understand, though we're friends, we're in the same quote unquote city, we might as well be in two totally different nations, right? Like in other words, it's the ways, North Fort Worth, but even culturally, Dallas, where you pastor, where the specific part of Dallas, yeah, right. Yeah. Um, you know, North Dallas, Plano, or further out is a lot different. You you grew up, went to Lake Highlands, right? So my college roommate was from Lake Hollands. That's its own little community. We are in different worlds, but I understand it. But either way, take us through, you know, you you you have this burden, you have this call, God's done a lot, and and I want to talk about pioneering something. Sure. So let's say there's a pastor out there, he goes, Well, I need to pioneer, you know, we got to plow a new new territory to have our church be younger. We have to plow new territory to to build a new building, which you just did, God just did a miracle for y'all. Yeah, that's a whole new journey, too, by the way, wasn't it? Like leading a group of people to a new destination. But let's talk about the pioneering spirit. Like, what did you learn about yourself? Tell us the story, starting the church. What did you learn like starting this church, this community upper room?

SPEAKER_02 9:39

I think, I think the first thing worth acknowledging, I wouldn't have chosen the area that God planted us in. So I'm a North kid. It took me, it took me almost an hour to get here. So that's how far we are. I'm in an urban downtown context. And the original building where we started this prayer meeting was in Oak Lawn. I knew, I knew that he had called us uh to plant a prayer room specifically in this area. And I think pioneering in the early days uh was God really stripping me of a lot of my preferences. Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:16

Like first the neighborhood, and you and in realizing, you know, to reach to reach people, like your biases, like right. Like I I've I've said that about evangelism in my own life. It's like, you know what, the number one barrier to many times me reaching the people are ready to be reached, but am I gonna take the time to invite them into a relationship? And it's selfishness a lot of times.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

I mean, you're you're we're the biggest barrier. We're the barrier. We we we we see ourselves in the midst of it. And I I my training, everything up to that point was was the trajectory I was on to do was to do something in the suburbs, was to to lead a community that looked like me. Like golf. Like wife.

SPEAKER_00 11:00

Uh what's your latest, what's your handicap right now?

SPEAKER_02 11:03

Oh, I'm a three.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

Ma, that's powerful. Is that good? That's powerful. No, it's good.

SPEAKER_02 11:09

Yeah, I I I yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

I took two weeks off and quit. Short lived, you're a fisherman though. I love to bass fish, though. Yeah, notice the white look at the red.

SPEAKER_02 11:19

I I I can't, I that's a whole other thing we'll have to talk about. But I think in those early days, every everything I was trying to employ wasn't working. Right. And so the the fact that God called us there, and then and then I think as a pioneer being faithful to what I knew to do, not what I thought I should do.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:41

Um, and and and that was very little. It it it the scope of what we were doing seemed so small, but it was significant in light of what he had planted, which was this it was a it was a prayer room that became a church. Now our church, it's it's a really unique expression of church. We have prayer six days a week from 6 a.m. to 8 p.m. And and that culture of prayer that God was building, I didn't understand it at the time.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

Right.

SPEAKER_02 12:07

But being faithful to what he asked us to do in those early days was so, so critical in order to get us where he wanted us to go. And so I had to be re real careful as a leader, and I think a lot of leaders face this is I was being asked questions I didn't have answers to.

Leading With Clarity In Uncertainty

SPEAKER_02 12:25

That's a good, that's a good thought.

SPEAKER_00 12:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

And that was okay. I didn't think it was okay. But it is okay. I didn't think it was though. I thought I'm the leader, I need to know answers to these questions. Like I didn't I didn't want to feel exposed.

SPEAKER_00 12:39

Right. And sometimes the answer is, hey, we're still working that out, or we don't know. And that's an that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 12:44

Or or what I learned is to simply articulate what I did know. That's good. So I had to know what I knew and be comfortable with what I didn't. And and through those seasons of being faithful to do what he had called us to do over time, he brought answers to those other questions. Um, but I realized in the early days when I tried to employ ideas that were mine and not his, I would get in trouble. It would, it would be kind of an ishmail or something that I I birthed and I was responsible for versus just being faithful with what he called me to do. And I think that's a challenge for me even today, uh, just with ongoing questions and and that's the purpose of leadership. Leadership is leading into uncertainty. So there's uncertainty, unclear. Well, what do I know? I have to be clear about that. Right. And I I I don't think I was as confident in the early days with what I knew. I felt like I needed to know more. Right. And I would encourage young leaders, if you you you need to know what you know and and and to be to be faithful to articulate that consistently so that people people can see uh what it is God's called you to do. Um because it can get it can get complex uh and unclear. And so I really fought for clarity, I think, about a year or two in, and this is what this is, this is what it's not. So that's so good.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

Yeah. I love that thought because I think a lot of times, you know, you go back to okay, I'm I'm called to have a relationship with Jesus. I am called to be a good steward of my wife. And then when you have kids and I know the relationships he's called me to, and I know the place he's called me to, and I know the people, like when you start stacking up, there's actually a lot of things you know. Okay. I know I'm called to walk with this person, I know I'm called to this, you know. And I think that's hard today because you're actually most of the time fed something totally opposite. Right. Right. Like you need this, you need to buy it this pill, you need that thing. If you had this your life, I mean, so we're we're just constantly sold on.

SPEAKER_02 14:54

Yeah, I think I think uh yeah, I think I and I think sometimes that's it's self-inflicted because we're on our screens, we're looking at what this guy's doing. Right. Well, I if I come out here and see what what you're doing, and I try to compare myself to what you're leading, uh, I I could get inferior. I could get inferior complex. Like it's significant, bro. You're in a little city. It is pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

It's a pretty cool building. My point is mine's a little suburban-ish.

SPEAKER_02 15:21

It's very suburban. But if I if I was trying to lead what you're called to lead, right, I'd get in trouble. And I think comparison is a I think that is a thing that that, man, you need to be you need to be honest with yourself. Exactly. And and and and also clear with those that you're just in time to.

SPEAKER_01 15:41

You know, that's just I'm just saying that's one thing I know. I know we're supposed to quit on too.

SPEAKER_02 15:47

Yeah, we we have a hard time putting a clock in the room, uh, especially especially at our PM service.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

So it it it yeah, to each their own and just being faithful to how do you how do you one thing I've always wondered too is like how do you navigate because what you're really saying, and I and I really do re one, you're a great version of you, you're a terrible version of somebody else. You you're not gonna have to stand before God for you know, I don't have to stand before God for what he's called you to, but I've gotta be faithful to what he's called me to. But I think I think too movement, right? The the move move the move of God, you know, in other words, I think we sometimes don't have enough structure, so we lose the movement, but we also can overstructure and we have something that has great form, but no, no life in it, right? Right? What do you how do you handle that when people started lining up? You and I would talk and be like, they're in line, you know. Like, did it bother you when you're just like, should I have a solution for this?

SPEAKER_02 16:51

I yeah. Yeah,

When People Line Up Outside

SPEAKER_02 16:54

yeah. You used to have to get at our previous spot, you had to show up at 7 a.m. Between 7 and 8 a.m. to get into the 10 a.m. service. And it yeah, it was it was it was such a problem. Um I think I think though, when at the end of the day, I was clear with what we were called to do. And and in we were called to that urban downtown area, but we had opportunities to move to other parts of the city, but it was so clear to me and how the Lord led me, spoke to me, spoke to our team, that we were supposed to hold the ground in that urban downtown context. So that meant that that we didn't have as much parking as we needed. We we couldn't find a space that was big enough for everyone that was coming. And and for us, our our target was the presence of God and and the prayer. Um, and so so with that orientation, it was more important what happened Monday through Saturday than what happened on Sunday.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

Right.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

So the prayer room, we we had we had room still during the week. And because that was central to our vision, we could we could we could embrace some of the challenges that a Sunday presented in order to fulfill what we were called to do Monday through Saturday. Yeah. Um, we probably could have done it better looking back, um, but inevitably the Lord opened up a building now that we filled and still have sometimes lines, but uh we're there's more space and we've we've we've alleviated some of that. But again, the the calling and the mandate for us dictated how we responded to some of those challenges.

Songwriting As A Fruit Of Calling

SPEAKER_00 18:34

And you just wrote a song.

SPEAKER_02 18:35

I did. I told you that. I I wrote my first song. House of David reached out, the the the docuseries on David on Amazon.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

And yeah, the the that's all a stick. What am I doing for God? That's what I was asking. I don't know. I mean, what am I doing? I've got to it's I gotta write some songs.

SPEAKER_02 18:54

Hey, as I told you, I didn't really do much. I showed up my Bible where they they wanted us to write on uh the song of Moses, so I showed the guys where the song of Moses is. We read through it, and then they didn't know. I think this could be a good template. I was in the room.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

Let's have a let's have a pastor, and so we're gonna kind of put some scripture, we're gonna kind of check this, you know. You know what I mean? That is that might be a good template.

SPEAKER_02 19:13

Man, when you get in a room with some of these guys that are called to write, and they get the word of God and a piano and the presence of God, what's out of them is pretty crazy. Is is incredible. So they just released that Friday on Amazon Music. It's called The Song of Moses, Upper Room. I'm I'm really proud of it. It's like my small flex.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

And your Birkin stocks?

SPEAKER_02 19:37

In my Birkin stocks, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

Birkenstocks and he wrote a song.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

I wrote in my Birkin Skywalk.

unknown 19:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:42

No, it's it's been it's been that whole that whole orientation again, calling and what we were what we set out to do, songwriting was just a fruit of that.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

So in the in the pine, you know, thinking about pioneering, you're like, know who you are, know what you're called to, be okay with the ambiguity, be okay, even with we're we're gonna go against the grain on some things, but we're not we're not necessarily analyzing results. We're in the sense of how you might analyze. Right. Because we're staying true. Right. Right. What that was your what's what's your biggest leadership challenge today?

Second Generation Leaders And Structure

SPEAKER_00 20:20

Like what are you really trying to sort out now at the phase you're at? What are you trying to work through? I think we've uh that's a great question that I'm today I'll answer it this way.

SPEAKER_02 20:31

Uh I think we have really a second generation of leaders um raising up that second gen. So I have a lot of a lot of our early leaders showed up. They were late teens, early twenties. Now they're young married with kids and really starting their vocations. Like some of them are full-time songwriters now. And just it's incredible what God's launching them into, but now raising up that that second gen. Um that's that's that's what consumes me just thinking about some of these newer leaders. What we learned in the last season, how do we how do we position these guys, these guys to to continue to do what we're called to do, but but maybe do it more effective. And then I'm also I was telling you, I'm sending a lot of my team up here just to learn best practices from other places. Uh now that the DNA is set and upper room, I think we can glean so much from others to help us do some of the things that you guys do so well that we don't. And so um that that that I think is something that that doesn't feel as natural to us because it's been so homegrown. But it's it's time now, I think, for us to to incorporate better order and structure and processes because we've gotten away with a lot because of just the culture and the presence of God. But man, we we have in this next uh season, I think the process is structures that are critical for us.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

We're talking about breath and bones, right? Like you can have you, you know, you want to have the breath of God. God, but Ezekiel 37, right? The bones come together to create the army, the wineskin and the wine, right? The the wineskin's gotta stay where it can, you know. So I I think a lot about that. I think, I think, I think I can lean a little bit structural at times, but um, but my roots, when you first met, I mean, you know, I I preached on this weekend, like we're in a series called The Spirit Filled Life. So I'm talking about how um I think there's a lot more common things among churches, which I think is a good thing. But I think also like when you definitively begin to say, oh no, we're we actually want to help bring people into a subsequent experience with the Holy Spirit, that's that is a defining thing. And I went into orthodoxy and and we're brothers in Christ, but I mean, I think um, if I'm really being honest, it's like, how do you reach lost people, but also have a spiritually growing and maturing environment? And I and I think we tend to fall in the ditch a little. We kind of our church is deep and we're yeah, you know, or or we're just, you know, oh, they're just you know, a lot of people, but it's not any depth. I think a lot of times, you know, sometimes that's being framed from people who aren't I always think it's easy to sit in the stands, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:27

What have you built? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 23:28

Yeah, and that's what I I mean I appreciate about you is that you stayed true to your convictions and you built something that looks different from what I felt called to, but I think, you know, at the end of the day, it's still centered around Jesus. Right. I mean, at the end of the day, we're trying to trying to make Jesus more famous, right? Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 23:45

Yeah, we we just baptized 50-ish people two weeks ago, and I think 90% were either Latino or African American. I love it, which is which is the the demographic now that our new building's in. Um and and so I think I think the the presence of God and the proclamation of the gospel, those are the two things that that we focus on week in and week out. Is that that first 45 minutes or could be an hour, could be could be an hour and 10, 20 minutes, but is for you might not have to preach.

SPEAKER_00 24:23

Which I think I think that's one of the things that I think is I could bring back those services because you know you could then as the pastor, if you if you didn't have them, you could just be like, you know, let's just work I just feel God on this topic. We're gonna go with the Lord.

SPEAKER_02 24:38

No, we we we we usually the majority of the time we get to the word of portion.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

But you're actually a really good uh teacher of the word. Um what about let's talk about young

What Young Adults Need Most

SPEAKER_00 24:50

people? Because I, you know, you and I were chatting, and I and I come back around to this because I what you're saying I think is interesting because that's a that's similar to where I'm at in a different way. I'm actually now third generation, right? I have me, I have this this I have sort of my friends and you know, but then I have another generation that were the initial young people that we raised up, but now we just have this wave of Tuesday night young adults. We've got all these students, you know. Um and and so I find a lot of my time is spent in the equipping and training and developing of future young, and I'm around a lot of young people, our college and stuff. And I find that a lot of people are really asking that, parents listening, what about what what how do I, you know, teenagers today, young people today, schools, you know, politics, all these different things are influenced, you know, and and I think I think the the digital shift, the technology, the changes in the world. I'll tell you this, during COVID, one of the hardest times in my tenure of leadership, like you know, you kind of get hit with such an unprecedented, I was like, we don't we don't just have like a racial divide, we don't just have a political divide, we have a generational gap that was in my own staff. Sure. I realized that I have people on my own staff who are not good at inviting young people to the table. Like I bring them to the table, I don't treat them. I mean, I'm like, okay, you sit at the big people table. Yeah, you know, yeah. What are you, what are you, what would you say from your vantage point? Like, what are what do people not know about this next generation? What are they, what are we missing? What what's going on?

SPEAKER_02 26:40

I that's a great question. Uh our our world similar, just filled with young people, and I I think they're looking for purpose. I think they're looking for a cause. Um and and when they come into a context where that cause is clear, I see a generation willing to give their life to it. And so, you know, not a greater cause than the gospel. I I I uh something that has informed me and how to lead uh the the the coming generation, specifically those in their 20s, and you could probably say late teens, but I was reading the book of numbers, which is a tough book to get through, right? Right. I mean, it's called Numbers.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

That's what I'll my big joke is is people go, God isn't into numbers. And I'm like, it's name the book of the Bible.

SPEAKER_02 27:31

It's true. It's true. But there was this, so I'm I'm I'm in my Bible reading plan, and I feel like the Lord highlighted, and if you read numbers one, numbers two, he's taking tribe by tribe, and he says, take those that are 20 years and upward, over and over, 20 years and upward, 20 years and upward. And then later in numbers four, there's a 30 and upward, but that's for the Levites. And and the the point is, those that are 20 and upward, those were to be set apart for war. They were, they were the army of Israel. And and then and then 30, you you see, okay, there's there's for for those Levites, they could go into the holiest of holies, they could serve and minister to the Lord. And I feel like the Lord showed me that that your 20s are learning how to fight. Yeah. Like life's battles.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

In a lot of countries, you have compulsory, like in other words, you Yeah, in Israel.

SPEAKER_02 28:22

In Israel, you gotta, you know, oh man, I was just there last year. There's a girl on TikTok carrying an AK, like in fatigues, and it it's it's true. So it's still, I think they still employ that, but but spiritually, I think, I think so many young people are are looking for their purpose, looking for, well, what am I called to? Right. And and I think we've got to teach them, we've got to teach them to to die, we've got to teach them to to lose their life, we've got to teach them how to win the hidden battles. Right, right. Um, I I think that that is the process that your 20s are about. So the language I use in my world is that your seeds, which are those seeds of destiny, calling, have needs, and it's soil. You've gotta they've gotta learn to die and plant their lives, I think in a local context. Yes. Uh and so I always say upper rooms, really good soil to do that. Milestone's really good soil to do that, but God will call you into soil in your 20s. And I think that process, you can't circumvent it. Yeah. And if you look at, if you look then, you look at Joseph, Ezekiel, uh look at David, Saul, Jesus, even all of them, it was 30, the age of 30, that they enter into their their calling. And so there was something about 20s that prepare you for for that with platform, business, whatever that that grace is on your life to lead out. Many times I think 20 somethings are so eager to get to that calling and see it manifest, but but they miss the soil, they miss the process. And so we talk a lot about discipleship, about about the hidden battles. David killed lion and bear, no one saw. Right. Uh those, those are that to me is where the substance is for the 20 somethings. When they come in with that cause and man, I'm gonna, I'm gonna change the world, I'm gonna go to the nations, I'm gonna be a revivalist, I'm gonna be a marketplace leader. It's like, okay, yes, and you know, learn to serve in children's ministries. There you go. Learn to show up at the 6 a.m. prayer set. Learn learn just to get some hidden wins under your belt, uh, because that's actually what prepares you for that.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

So

Soil, Process, And Hidden Battles

SPEAKER_00 30:37

I think I think soil is needed. Um I think And there's more options today, right? So mobility is more possible. I say when I was I when I was growing up, I you you you didn't have such a variety, it didn't feel like you did. You actually had the whole world, but very few people really knew that. So you didn't get anxious about every decision or feel like I should be further, or change churches or change leaders, or change stuff. Right. Because you kind of like went to where where you were at, you know, like it's the same way with two, you you didn't you didn't listen to five preachers and then go listen to your pastor and judge him against them. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

You didn't listen to your pastor because you didn't know what everybody else was talking about.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

Yeah, you didn't have any other option. Right. Yeah now there's such a array of options almost makes it even more important to to really ask God, where are you calling me? Who are you calling me to walk with? Where do I need to, you know? Right. Children's church may be more important than it did even three generations ago.

SPEAKER_02 31:42

Right, which I think is so what's so beautiful about running to Brianna here. So Brianna's been running with you for almost 30 years. That history. Uh, I was with some of my exec team last week. There were eight of us. We had 130 years of serving on church staffs together. Like there's such a rich history. But that's it. That began in our mid-20s. Yeah. In our mid-20s, we we didn't know what we were doing. We just we we were doing it together. Right. And over time, buried in the soil we were in, there was a root system that that now um, you know, we have decades of history together. And so I would encourage young people in those those soils that they're called into, that those that they're connected to, like the longevity in that. I don't think we we champion that enough, the longevity and relationship, the longevity with community in the same place, because we are so prone to be transient and bump from place to place to place. But I think there has to be a value for that.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

That's the number one question, actually, that I get asked, probably number one. How do you have how do you have a team that you guys have been together that long? And I realize that, you know, people could be think think that as a negative, because it'd be like, well, does anyone challenge the process? And I get it, but that's why you're you you always want to be a generational church. Because I'm gonna tell you the children, the the the g the younger generations, if you're multi-generational, there's no way for this generation to stay stuck because the young people are gonna go to war. Right. Right, they're gonna challenge the process, right? They always will. That's what they do, yeah. And so that I think having multiple generations, I think in a company or anything, like I think the best thing you can do is invite that feedback to the table because it helps you adapt and develop.

SPEAKER_02 33:32

Right. And and and with with uh with that, um, the multi-generational connection, um, I I think it's I think it's critical for young people to. I remember when when I was running with you back in the day, uh I I longed to be around families.

Apprenticeship And Coaching Trees

SPEAKER_02 33:50

I was single at the time, but I went and found someone at our church. I said, Hey, can I come to can I come to dinner with you?

unknown 33:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:56

And they're like, Yeah, sure, come on over. And what what started out as one week went, it was like two years with the same family. Yeah, Thursday night. That's powerful. And and I just I think you've got to position yourself to find those older people that you respect, maybe the Lord's highlights, and be intentional with that. Yeah. Um, because there's something for you in that relationship. And I look back at even what I'm leading today, and mothers and fathers have shaped it. Uh, it it is a multi-generational thing. We have so much to receive from the generation above us, and and so to position yourself in that way, I think it's really it's kind of anecdotal, but I think God's actually I don't have any stats on this.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

So just I'm gonna just say kind of but conversations. I think God's got a new wave of young people he's calling into ministry too. When I talk, I mean, we're all in the ministry of reconciliation and marketplace, but I'm seeing uh a a temperature and and it and if what people are saying is is you know, what we you and I were just talking about, what God's doing in Europe and what God's doing, you know, the labors, right? The harvest is plentiful. I don't know, I'm just seeing that. That and so then I have I've had this conversation three times in the last two weeks. I feel this call, but I don't know how to sort it out. What do I do? And my greatest advice is it's an apprenticeship. It started with Jesus as apprenticeship model. Like you find your people, you find your purpose, you find yeah, you know. So what you need to do is ask God, where are you placing me? But also you need to ask, like, Lord, where do I, you know, who do I resonate with? Right. What what what what coaching, you know? Right. Bill Parcell and Bill Walsh coaching trees a few years ago, you could count up the majority of the teams in the NFL playoffs and won the Super Bowl came from those two coaching trees. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 35:50

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 35:51

So I and so we have a generation of young people God is igniting. Yeah, they're excited, they're talented, but it's like, no, where do I, where do I go to learn? Where do I get help?

SPEAKER_02 36:03

Right.

SPEAKER_00 36:03

And I think it's important.

Spiritual Parents And Learning To Pray

SPEAKER_02 36:05

I remember when when Larissa and I uh were newly married, um, we went to a church before the upper room started, and there was a couple there that we were just really drawn to, Jane and Truman. And she had a prayer room in her living room. She was just this intercessor, wanted her her church to start a prayer room. I don't know if they didn't have space, but she just did it in her living room. So we went we went to her weekday prayer meeting. No one was there but her husband, because he lived there. And and so, but she just had this heart for prayer, heart for prayer. So we we get this invitation to start a prayer room in Oaklawn. Well, the first person to show up was Jane. First person, just a spiritual mom, dad. After a couple weeks, we blow through the summer, so it was actually a couple months. Uh, they approach us, said, Hey, we so believe in this, we're gonna move down to Oaklawn, but you need to adopt Jane's prayer hours, which were in her living room. You're gonna adopt them at the upper room. And I was like, I don't know if this is a good idea, I don't know if this is gonna stick. But sure enough, they moved down. We adopt the hours, they asked for me to be at all those hours. So here I am, stuck in Oaklawn with Jane in her vision for a prayer room. Uh, well, I learned to pray. I learned to pray because Jane had a burden to pray. And I remember one time I was I was frustrated, like, Lord, call me to the suburbs. And I was reading Acts two, and it says, When the Holy Spirit's poured out, it says, Your old men will what? Dream dreams, and your young men have visions. And I've I've I think that can be spiritual, like having dreams and visions. But I felt like the Lord showed me that that Jane's dream for a prayer house became my vision.

SPEAKER_00 37:48

Yeah, that's good. That's really powerful.

SPEAKER_02 37:50

That it became my her dream became my vision. And it it it it now, now looking at Jane's dream, I mean, upper rooms known for prayer and worship. And I I I truly that that originated in the heart of Jane. And so it was a generational connection and relationship that ultimately birthed a vision that I'm leading out today.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

But didn't this is the power of discipleship, right? Did not look very TikTok worthy when they were having you over to pray at their house.

SPEAKER_01 38:22

No one was oh no one was she would just lighting up the internet. You know what we're doing today? We're gonna be able to do that. She would just rock.

SPEAKER_02 38:29

She would rock like this over and over in those early days. I mean, I it's 6 a.m. I'm not an early bird, but I would show up because Truman, he said, you need to be there. He's a lawyer down there, and he said, You need to be there. So I would show up. She would pray, and she would pray the same thing. She would pray for marriages and musicians. She'd pray a lot, but I remember consistently. Marriages and musicians. Lord, bring the young people, marriages and musicians. That was 2010-11. In 2013, I did just under 20 weddings. And then you had these musicians now the music. And so I look back and I just see, wow, the prayers of Jane Spring availeth much. And I'm indebted. I love that. I'm indebted. What a cool story. So the the I just want to encourage young people to find those spiritual moms and dads and just that generational connect because it will unlock something for you.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

That's so good.

Defining Winning As A Leader

SPEAKER_00 39:24

So I ask most people that come on here this question, right? Like lead to win, right? And when a lot of people would think, oh, that's like striving for a target or a goal. But you understand my version, because we've talked what what do I mean by winning, right? What what is the Bible says run your race, but some run it and win, and some just run. Right. Right. Obviously, it's talking about an eternal perspective. Right. For you, what is winning? Like what is what is what is what is because you look at the target, like what is winning for you as as a leader? What are what right now is what what what would you impart in that area?

SPEAKER_02 40:03

I mean, you could look at marriage, kids, which we could talk about that. That's that's gotta be that's gotta be central and priority. But but I I think even before that, I would I would say that I'm falling deeper in love with Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 40:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:21

My affections, my uh my my hunger, uh my knowledge of him. Um I I I want to know him. And and I I realize the more I know him, the more the more there is to know. And and you know, David, David in Psalms 27, he I I think is a real Psalms 27 is one of my favorite Psalms, but I I it it's a real hardship. He's going through a lot. And he says this, he said, he says, You said seek my face. And in my heart I said, Lord, your face I'll seek. And and that that invitation to seek his face, yeah, it it's what got us into this.

SPEAKER_00 41:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:06

It's where it began. And I think even people watching this are probably watching this because they they're in relationship with him and they want to grow in their knowledge of him. And so I I think that that that pursuit has to be primary uh for my marriage, for my kids, but ultimately as a leader, um, that that my affections for Jesus, my love for Jesus, my fidelity and faithfulness to Jesus has to be central daily. And I can get so preoccupied with the things surrounding him that I end up having a relationship with those. Right. And I call it a relationship with him, but that that my heart has to be connected to his voice, to his leadership, to his ways, uh, which is a surrendered life. And so I I think that that would be winning. I know that sounds like well pastor's gotta say that. But but the centrality of of being a disciple of Jesus and and and that he has access to this, to to my heart and to to my affections. Um, I I daily want to strive for that. So that would be winning for me.

SPEAKER_00 42:24

I would say that's pretty much the primary target, and everything else flows out of that. It's just that is uh really good. And I think, and I think, I do think, you know, you talk about writing a worship song or whatever. I do think I think there's there's uniquenesses, there's things we impart. There's God gave us all different gifts, right? We should all be pursuing that, but I do think you have a unique calling in that area to draw to draw people to a greater level of of worship and prayer. And I kind of want to go to a prayer meeting right now. It's not like, hey, let's go pray or something, you know, like because I will say, you know, you you do get the impartation of what you're around, right? And I think you provide something. I mean, a lot of our young people will come over for worship things for you, I mean, you you there's there's an atmosphere there that that you're you know imparting, calling, inspiring people to be closer to Jesus. And I mean, that's amazing. So yeah, that's that's it. That's the W. That's awesome. And you still still have a three handicap. I mean, that's when you're gonna get it on down there.

SPEAKER_02 43:32

It's around there.

SPEAKER_00 43:33

You're gonna get it on down there.

SPEAKER_02 43:34

I I it's summertime, so this is this is game time. This is this is in season, man. I'm in season right now, so ask me in a couple of months. Um we just joined a club and uh it's my boys are getting into golf, so I spend a ton of time at my first big tournament this next week. So I'll I'll text you what I do.

SPEAKER_00 43:52

Let me know. Thank you for coming.

SPEAKER_02 43:54

Man, what an appreciation. I love you. I'm really, really honored to be your friend in this country.

Final Thanks And Subscribe Request

SPEAKER_00 43:58

I want to say thank you for checking out this episode of the Lead to Win podcast. I want you to know that I love and my team loves getting this kind of content into your life so it can help you lead and win at what matters most. So I'd love for you to do me a favor, like, comment, especially subscribe if you would, so that we can make sure that we're able to get to you some of the things that are gonna help you lead to win.