Feb. 2, 2026

Live from Leaders Gathering: Steve Robinson Talks Soul Leadership

Live from Leaders Gathering: Steve Robinson Talks Soul Leadership

What if the thing holding your leadership back isn’t strategy… but your soul? In this episode, Pastor Jeff sits down with Pastor Steve Robinson to unpack Soul Leadership—how trauma and chronic stress reshape the brain, why leaders get triggered, and how healthy leaders build healthy teams. You’ll learn the difference between self-leadership and soul leadership, why unprocessed pain turns into unhealthy patterns, and how God can bring you from fragmentation to wholeness. If you’re a pastor, ...

Apple Podcasts podcast player iconSpotify podcast player iconAmazon Music podcast player iconYouTube podcast player icon
Apple Podcasts podcast player iconSpotify podcast player iconAmazon Music podcast player iconYouTube podcast player icon

What if the thing holding your leadership back isn’t strategy… but your soul?

In this episode, Pastor Jeff sits down with Pastor Steve Robinson to unpack Soul Leadership—how trauma and chronic stress reshape the brain, why leaders get triggered, and how healthy leaders build healthy teams. You’ll learn the difference between self-leadership and soul leadership, why unprocessed pain turns into unhealthy patterns, and how God can bring you from fragmentation to wholeness.

If you’re a pastor, leader, or team builder trying to finish well, this conversation will give you language, tools, and hope.

TIMESTAMPS:
0:00 - Why Soul Leadership Matters
4:25 - The Book’s Big Idea And Audience
8:40 - Katrina, Burnout, And Hitting The Wall
11:30 - The Soul Leadership Cycle
14:20 - Self Leadership vs Soul Leadership
20:00 - Saul’s Wounds, Shame, And Control
29:20 - Moses Triggered: Accusation And Delay
34:20 - Building Resilience Before Crisis
41:00 - You Can’t Pray Trauma Away

LEAD TO WIN RESOURCES
More Resources: https://leadtowin.com/
Win With People: https://leadtowin.com/pages/win-with-...
Register for Leaders Gathering: https://leadersgathering.leadtowin.com/
Information on Milestone Church: https://milestonechurch.com/

FIND US AT: https://leadtowin.com

GET IN TOUCH: Contact us at info@leadtowin.com

FOLLOW PASTOR JEFF
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jefflittle/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pastorjefflittle

FOLLOW LEAD TO WIN
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/leadto.win/

00:00 - Why Soul Leadership Matters

04:25 - The Book’s Big Idea And Audience

08:40 - Katrina, Burnout, And Hitting The Wall

11:30 - The Soul Leadership Cycle

14:20 - Self Leadership vs Soul Leadership

20:00 - Saul’s Wounds, Shame, And Control

29:20 - Moses Triggered: Accusation And Delay

34:20 - Building Resilience Before Crisis

41:00 - You Can’t Pray Trauma Away

WEBVTT

00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:04.799
We are so excited about this episode of the Lead to Win podcast.

00:00:04.959 --> 00:00:06.400
I'm here with Pastor Steve.

00:00:06.559 --> 00:00:08.000
He and I are close friends.

00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:10.240
He's been such a mentor to me.

00:00:10.560 --> 00:00:12.960
We just finished a session.

00:00:13.119 --> 00:00:18.000
There was about 500 and something churches and a lot of church leaders.

00:00:18.239 --> 00:00:18.960
A couple thousand.

00:00:19.199 --> 00:00:22.079
We bought every single person that attended.

00:00:22.239 --> 00:00:25.199
We gave them a copy of your new book, Soul Leadership.

00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:30.800
And I know that it's it's really exciting to you now to be able to share this with everybody else.

00:00:31.039 --> 00:00:33.280
You know, Jeff, we've worked on this book for a number of years.

00:00:33.439 --> 00:00:36.640
As many of you have heard the story, it's it's my personal story.

00:00:36.719 --> 00:00:40.240
It's a blend of theology, therapy, neuroscience, leadership.

00:00:40.399 --> 00:00:40.560
Yeah.

00:00:40.719 --> 00:00:41.679
And how that comes together.

00:00:41.759 --> 00:00:43.679
My heart's just to really help pastors, leaders.

00:00:43.920 --> 00:00:54.320
Matter of fact, for-profit, nonprofit leaders, a lot of guys are, a lot of people are getting this for teams, and so man, I'm just, I'm excited about the possibility of really helping people.

00:00:54.479 --> 00:01:00.719
Well, we were sitting in a room last night, in fact, and multiple leaders saying this is where I struggle.

00:01:00.799 --> 00:01:09.040
And I think a lot of times, as someone who's giving out to others, you know, there's there's actually something we talk about a lot when the plane is going down.

00:01:09.120 --> 00:01:12.239
You know, you gotta put the oxygen mask on yourself first.

00:01:12.480 --> 00:01:16.319
And so maybe there's a leader out there that this episode is gonna inspire you.

00:01:16.480 --> 00:01:23.280
We're gonna take you live right into the leaders' gathering that we hold every January at leadtowin.com.

00:01:23.439 --> 00:01:27.760
And I'm actually gonna interview Pastor Steve about soul leadership.

00:01:27.920 --> 00:01:43.760
And one practical thought, not only just for you, but if you want to go to Amazon, you want to order this book today, get it get a handful and go through it with your leadership team because if you help your team be healthy, then the organization is healthy.

00:01:43.920 --> 00:01:49.840
And here's what I say healthy leaders produce healthy teams, which build healthy organizations, which have great impact.

00:01:50.319 --> 00:01:50.959
Starts with the soul.

00:01:51.120 --> 00:01:54.239
So you might want me to grab a handful of these, go through it with your team.

00:01:54.319 --> 00:01:55.439
I'm excited you're here.

00:01:55.519 --> 00:02:00.000
You're gonna enjoy this episode, this podcast today.

00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:01.200
You're gonna enjoy it.

00:02:01.439 --> 00:02:10.240
We are here at the leaders' gathering, and we wanted this to also be something that we can share with other leaders as well on the Lead to Win podcast.

00:02:10.479 --> 00:02:20.639
But I thought we might take just a moment just because uh for this moment, Pastor Steve is not you know a guest.

00:02:20.719 --> 00:02:23.199
I want to talk personally for a minute.

00:02:23.520 --> 00:02:34.960
I think when you look back over your life when you're at our phase of life, you it truly is the relationships where you see the the richness of God's grace.

00:02:35.120 --> 00:02:41.280
And I I know we've always said 1999, my wife says it's around 2000.

00:02:41.840 --> 00:02:46.960
Uh we met on a van at something like this.

00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:52.319
I don't know if you ever think about it, but you could meet someone at this that could be a divine relationship.

00:02:52.560 --> 00:03:02.719
And we had little kids, our wives, and then I was like, I have never met someone who I felt, where's this going?

00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:23.120
Well, let's just say you were a little high strung, but uh but you you, you know, I just I thought just inside perspective, you were you're one of the I I want to say this, one of the smartest strategic leaders in the body of Christ you've ever met is this guy right here.

00:03:23.199 --> 00:03:24.080
I'm just telling you.

00:03:24.240 --> 00:03:32.000
Now, some of y'all know that, some of you may not know that, but it just I don't I don't really have to pray, you know.

00:03:32.080 --> 00:03:44.800
I just call him and just, you know, if I don't know what to do, he's already thought about it, he's SWOT-analysed it, he's uh he's mapped it, and he's he's already got like seven several different buckets.

00:03:45.039 --> 00:03:48.400
If you don't, you some of y'all don't know him, but he likes buckets.

00:03:48.479 --> 00:03:51.039
So as we talk today, I'm sure he'll go to his buckets.

00:03:51.280 --> 00:04:01.120
He usually um will say, I'm gonna give you three buckets, but he only has maybe one and a half, but he'll make the other ones up as he's sharing.

00:04:01.360 --> 00:04:06.639
And so he he kind of is developing the buckets as he as he gives them to you.

00:04:06.960 --> 00:04:10.800
Well, single greatest for me, leadership.

00:04:10.960 --> 00:04:16.240
Obviously, we're very close friends, but here at Milestone, he was here when we started in the cafetorium.

00:04:16.319 --> 00:04:18.160
He serves on our oversight team.

00:04:18.319 --> 00:04:24.959
He's a big brother, a leadership uh figure in my life, and really one of my closest friends.

00:04:25.040 --> 00:04:27.360
So, would you guys welcome Pastor Steve Robinson?

00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:34.560
Would you we're gonna jump into your book, Soul Leadership, but would you talk a little bit about Lead to Win?

00:04:34.800 --> 00:04:39.600
And you know, we we want to get you some merch and uh let you wear it.

00:04:39.680 --> 00:04:42.319
And we'll Were you offended I did not wear Lead to Win's?

00:04:42.639 --> 00:04:43.360
Yeah, really I was.

00:04:43.439 --> 00:04:48.240
I mean I'm noting who wears the merch, and and that's gonna impact.

00:04:48.560 --> 00:04:58.639
Well, first of all, I want to just say, and I'm not just saying this, that word just now, I know some people just watching this was a phenomenal pure pastor.

00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:00.639
How many of y'all appreciated that word from Pastor Jeff?

00:05:00.720 --> 00:05:02.079
Wasn't that powerful?

00:05:02.480 --> 00:05:04.720
I I need to know, can they hear me well out there?

00:05:04.800 --> 00:05:05.439
Can you guys hear me?

00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:07.680
First of all, it's so cold right here.

00:05:07.759 --> 00:05:09.839
This stage is not built for thin people.

00:05:11.839 --> 00:05:12.720
I'm serious.

00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:14.000
Big men burn diesel.

00:05:14.959 --> 00:05:16.480
Big men burn diesel.

00:05:16.639 --> 00:05:18.480
Hell is hot, heaven is cold.

00:05:19.120 --> 00:05:20.160
Embrace it.

00:05:20.879 --> 00:05:26.399
Look, you can take your jacket, you can take your shacket or whatever that westernware Tacova thing that you got on.

00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:30.399
You can take that, you can take raw hot, raw hot.

00:05:31.600 --> 00:05:32.720
Okay, whatever.

00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:42.480
Well, I want I want to say, I do want to say this, and you know, you go we all go to a lot of conferences, a lot of things, and we're so honored to have all of you here.

00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:55.600
And uh it's a joy to come alongside Jeff and serve him and serve you guys, but but what I love about you, you you can't listen to you, I know that's a double negative, without getting the impartation of a pastoral grace.

00:05:55.759 --> 00:05:58.160
We we love you, we thank you for the pastoral.

00:05:58.399 --> 00:06:00.959
How many of y'all sense that pastoral impartation?

00:06:01.199 --> 00:06:02.879
I'm I'm telling you, it is.

00:06:03.040 --> 00:06:04.319
And I love leadership.

00:06:04.480 --> 00:06:09.519
I think leadership's amazing, but leadership was popularized too much in the body of Christ the last 20 years.

00:06:09.680 --> 00:06:12.000
God's called us first to be shepherds, pastors.

00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:12.560
Amen.

00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:21.759
And I want to be a good leader, I believe in that, but thank you for who you are, because we received uh what you are, the foundation of that pastor.

00:06:21.920 --> 00:06:25.600
So um, yeah, so you asked me to come on to talk about my book.

00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:26.160
Yes.

00:06:26.240 --> 00:06:28.079
So let me give a little backstory on it.

00:06:28.240 --> 00:06:36.160
So all of you got this book, and this is this is the written copy, but really there's so much life here, there's so much experience.

00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:50.000
And I you and I worked with Coach Tom on our doctorates together, and this was actually your study was specifically in the research area of soul leadership.

00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:56.399
So I want to just get right to it because I want to ask you a series of questions that you'll be proud of me.

00:06:56.560 --> 00:06:57.600
I actually wrote them down.

00:06:57.680 --> 00:06:58.639
I've got them right here.

00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:00.399
Um we're not just gonna freewheel it.

00:07:00.480 --> 00:07:01.839
We have buckets right here.

00:07:02.240 --> 00:07:10.639
And so so, so I I I want to I want to just start with, you know, why the book.

00:07:10.879 --> 00:07:20.639
Research has shown that 93.7 percent of American leaders have experienced trauma, adversity, or prolonged stress.

00:07:20.800 --> 00:07:24.879
That's the statistical evidence, but we've all had people we love.

00:07:24.959 --> 00:07:27.439
Yeah, we've all been disappointed, discouraged.

00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:31.600
I think that maybe even young leaders out there could feel like, is it possible to finish well?

00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:34.079
That is a major discussion going on.

00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:39.839
Why is this statistic so significant and what does it mean for organizations?

00:07:40.160 --> 00:07:41.360
Yeah, three things with that.

00:07:41.519 --> 00:07:45.680
Number one, the book came out of an intersection of three points in my life.

00:07:45.759 --> 00:07:54.720
Number one, I've been a pastor 26 years, been in ministry over 30, and walking with leaders, and we all know how callings are derailed.

00:07:54.879 --> 00:07:55.360
Yeah.

00:07:55.680 --> 00:08:01.120
And how great power, great influence, and then you look, my gosh, what happened?

00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:03.920
There is some common factors attached to that.

00:08:04.160 --> 00:08:10.079
And so my heart being broken as a pastor, walking with people, uh, walking with leaders, coaching pastors.

00:08:10.240 --> 00:08:16.720
Number two, my own personal story, which we'll jump into a moment, um, of prolonged cumulative stress.

00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:18.639
And then number three, Coach Tom, like you said.

00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:22.079
I know we call him coach, but he's got a PhD and a two-earned doctorates.

00:08:22.399 --> 00:08:23.680
How many love Coach Tom Mullins?

00:08:23.839 --> 00:08:24.079
Come on.

00:08:24.160 --> 00:08:25.279
How many love, Coach?

00:08:25.680 --> 00:08:26.800
Incredible.

00:08:27.279 --> 00:08:33.919
And and so, Jeff, for me, my my passion, you know, you spoke about the the head, the heart, and the hands.

00:08:34.159 --> 00:08:38.639
I want to equip leaders, but I want to first help them care for their hearts.

00:08:38.720 --> 00:08:38.879
Yeah.

00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:44.639
Soul leadership, Proverbs 4, you mentioned, Proverbs 4, it's you know, tend your heart, tend your soul.

00:08:44.720 --> 00:08:46.799
The word heart there is your inner self.

00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:47.279
Right.

00:08:47.519 --> 00:08:52.159
Your inner reasoning, your soul, your mind, your will, your emotions.

00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:59.039
And uh the pain that I experience, I uh Pastor Dino Rizzo, dear friends, uh, we're friends.

00:08:59.120 --> 00:09:01.279
He was pastoring at a city in our Baton Rouge.

00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:02.320
I was in New Orleans, of course.

00:09:02.399 --> 00:09:03.840
We went through Hurricane Katrina.

00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:04.320
Right.

00:09:04.480 --> 00:09:05.840
And I didn't understand.

00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:12.000
I know now what I can go back and say what was going on, but I didn't know then.

00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:19.679
So you had you talk about in here, like the the sort of crisis moment or sort of the apex moment 2010.

00:09:19.919 --> 00:09:20.159
Yeah.

00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:22.000
And and take us into that for a moment.

00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:23.039
Like what happened?

00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:23.919
Where were you at?

00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:25.039
What was going on?

00:09:25.120 --> 00:09:26.000
Tell take us into that.

00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:28.080
2005, Hurricane Katrina.

00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:30.799
I go through a five-year prolonged intense stress.

00:09:30.879 --> 00:09:32.480
The operative word here is stress.

00:09:32.639 --> 00:09:36.639
PTSD, post-traumatic stress, right, disorder.

00:09:36.879 --> 00:09:39.360
And I I know now what was going on.

00:09:39.519 --> 00:09:40.320
I didn't then.

00:09:40.480 --> 00:09:46.080
I went through Hurricane Katrina, rallying people together, cleaning, gutting houses, all that.

00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:48.720
And then went into a big, massive building campaign.

00:09:48.799 --> 00:09:50.080
We lost a bunch of people in church.

00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:51.279
By the way, loss is big.

00:09:51.440 --> 00:09:54.320
How you manage loss determines the health of your soul often.

00:09:54.639 --> 00:09:58.080
And managing disappointment, and we all experience it.

00:09:58.240 --> 00:10:03.440
And and so for me, that was that was kind of the beginning of it, really put me on a downward slide.

00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:07.919
Then we go into 2007, 208, this big building campaign trying to raise$40 million.

00:10:08.240 --> 00:10:10.559
We raised 20 million, then we had the crash.

00:10:10.720 --> 00:10:22.559
Uh, our loan was pulled, and then 2010, it was February 2010, I come out to preach, and and when I start to preach, I'm like, oh my gosh, this is what happens to people when they go crazy.

00:10:23.039 --> 00:10:25.039
And now literally, I just like, oh my gosh.

00:10:25.120 --> 00:10:30.960
And it wasn't like I was my body was levitating, but I knew, I thought, I'm I'm I'm not well.

00:10:32.639 --> 00:10:40.320
And I remember walking off the stage and telling Pastor Randy Craighead, who's been with us for from almost the beginning, I said, Randy, I'm not doing this anymore.

00:10:40.639 --> 00:10:42.720
Of course, my wife came, she was amazing.

00:10:42.799 --> 00:10:49.919
We called my pastor, Pastor Jacob, actually, Pastor Jacob, Pastor Jim, and uh went to Mobile, Alabama for three days, cried.

00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:54.480
I said, I've not done anything immoral, I've not, I've not done, I said, nothing's coming out, but I will tell you this.

00:10:54.559 --> 00:10:56.399
I said, I don't want to do this anymore.

00:10:56.639 --> 00:11:02.879
It took me about 18 months to go through that process, and then the last 15 years to really understand how to help leaders.

00:11:03.200 --> 00:11:07.360
Most leaders don't understand how much unprocessed trauma they're carrying.

00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:08.159
It's true.

00:11:08.320 --> 00:11:10.480
And what happens is there's three parts of the book.

00:11:10.559 --> 00:11:12.159
It's called soul leadership cycle.

00:11:12.240 --> 00:11:12.879
This is in the book.

00:11:12.960 --> 00:11:13.759
You guys will see this.

00:11:13.840 --> 00:11:15.120
There's so much information.

00:11:15.759 --> 00:11:18.399
But the soul leadership cycle is divided into three parts.

00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:21.200
Number one, traumas, triggers, and terrible habits.

00:11:21.279 --> 00:11:21.840
That's part one.

00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:22.159
Okay.

00:11:22.799 --> 00:11:32.559
Unprocessed trauma, you get triggered, it resurfaces, and if you don't deal with it, we develop negative pathologies to soothe our soul.

00:11:32.799 --> 00:11:35.360
What you soothe with, you will ultimately serve.

00:11:35.440 --> 00:11:36.480
It better be good things.

00:11:36.799 --> 00:11:37.600
Really good.

00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:41.039
What you soothe, you will ultimately serve.

00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:43.200
What you soothe with, you'll ultimately serve.

00:11:43.279 --> 00:11:44.320
It better be the presence of God.

00:11:44.559 --> 00:11:45.200
There you go.

00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:49.840
If it's alcohol, if it's addictions, if it's spending, whatever soothes your soul.

00:11:50.159 --> 00:11:54.080
And the more so, so trauma, triggers, and terrible habits, section one.

00:11:54.240 --> 00:11:55.679
Number two is the resilience equation.

00:11:55.840 --> 00:11:58.000
I talk about in the book, and this is important.

00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:05.679
I talk about, you know, when you get on a plane, many of you flew here, when you get on a plane, you better hope there's enough fuel on that plane if it gets rerouted that they don't crash.

00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:06.159
Yeah.

00:12:06.559 --> 00:12:09.519
Resilience, you can build it up.

00:12:09.759 --> 00:12:16.240
Resilience is your ability to respond in crisis and to absorb pain in crisis.

00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:19.200
But here's the thing: you can grow in resilience.

00:12:19.279 --> 00:12:25.840
So I talk about resilience-building habits, and then I'll talk at the end of the book, it's called the growth model, PTG, post-traumatic growth.

00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:30.320
I talk about how you can grow on the other side, you can become a better leader on the other side.

00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:32.240
You're turning your wounds into wisdom.

00:12:32.320 --> 00:12:39.840
And so the soul leadership cycle kind of outlines the book, and um, and it's it's uh it's been a journey for me, absolutely.

00:12:40.080 --> 00:12:43.600
And and so this is this is we talk a lot about self-leadership.

00:12:43.759 --> 00:12:54.960
In fact, this time of year, in fact, we're here at this leaders' gathering and we're all kind of getting our year started, and we we we learn about, you know, don't just work in it, but learn how to work on it.

00:12:55.039 --> 00:12:56.320
We set goals and stuff.

00:12:56.720 --> 00:13:12.720
Talk about the difference because we do know from leadership teaching your church, your business, your team, your family is a byproduct, obviously, of you as a personal, as a leader, right?

00:13:12.879 --> 00:13:15.120
You're you're the greatest impact on all of that.

00:13:15.360 --> 00:13:20.399
So, what what is some of the differences in soul leadership and self-leadership?

00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:21.039
What does that mean?

00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:21.840
Great question.

00:13:21.919 --> 00:13:33.279
So, contemporary business or leadership genre language is self-leadership precedes team leadership, which precedes organizational leadership, which precedes community impact.

00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:38.240
The reason why I wanted, I wanted to go a step before self-leadership because there's nothing wrong with it.

00:13:38.320 --> 00:13:44.320
It's been a popular topic: self-leadership, make sure you're going on vacation, you know, ladies get manicure, pedicure, all that's good stuff, right?

00:13:44.559 --> 00:13:45.039
Take care.

00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:50.000
Physical, but but soul leadership is when you become aware of what's happening in your soul.

00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:52.320
Awareness is the key.

00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:58.399
You understand why I am so hyper-vigilant, why am I emotionally dysregulative so quickly?

00:13:58.559 --> 00:14:01.519
Right, why am I uh numb on the inside?

00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:09.120
And so awareness is a first step, and I talk about that in the book because here's the thing you do produce what you are as a leader.

00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:12.480
So in the book, I talk about mirror neurons.

00:14:12.720 --> 00:14:13.039
Okay.

00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:15.840
We unconsciously sync with those that are around us.

00:14:15.919 --> 00:14:16.799
Let me give you an example.

00:14:17.600 --> 00:14:23.039
If you see somebody yawn, within 60 seconds, 93% chance, you'll yawn as well.

00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:26.240
Because your neuron unconsciously syncs with them.

00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:27.519
So what's the point?

00:14:27.679 --> 00:14:32.159
If you're a leader, a calm leader produces calm organizations.

00:14:32.480 --> 00:14:36.000
A dysregulated leader produces a dysregulated organization.

00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:36.559
That's good.

00:14:36.720 --> 00:14:46.639
So you can bring in consultants, you can retweak your values, you can have them look at all your packaging, but if you're jacked up in your soul, you're gonna produce a jacked-up culture in your church.

00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:47.120
Yeah.

00:14:47.759 --> 00:14:48.320
Does that make sense?

00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:50.000
Leaders don't understand that.

00:14:50.159 --> 00:14:52.000
And they think, well, I just need another consultant.

00:14:52.159 --> 00:14:54.240
No, you need soul healing, is what you need.

00:14:54.879 --> 00:15:02.720
Nothing wrong with consultants, and I love consultants, but re tweaking your verbiage doesn't heal the soul.

00:15:02.879 --> 00:15:04.320
So that that's the premise.

00:15:04.799 --> 00:15:14.480
So so you have this conceptually, you do empirical study, you have yourself, obviously, the process you went through.

00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:22.240
Um, but then you also like biblically talk to us a moment about the you use King Saul as a biblical model.

00:15:22.399 --> 00:15:25.600
Talk talk to us about the the biblical connection with this.

00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:29.360
Yeah, so I want to go back on before I get to Saul, I want to talk about one thing.

00:15:29.440 --> 00:15:35.120
The one thing it's in the book, it's I think it's on 49 or something, but I talk about the brain.

00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:37.679
This is really important, and then I want to get into Saul.

00:15:38.080 --> 00:15:42.639
So the brain, the most, the the parts of your brain, parts, your brain's very sophisticated.

00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:43.919
I studied it for three years.

00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:48.879
It's very but the three parts of your brain that are most impacted by stress, trauma, and adversity.

00:15:49.600 --> 00:15:52.320
Number one, your prefrontal cortex, that's your thinking brain.

00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:58.799
Number two, your limbic system, and inside your limbic system is your amygdala and hippocampus, that's your emotional brain.

00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:00.080
Your memory is your emotional brain.

00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:03.759
And then you've got your brain stem, which is your kind of breathing heart rate.

00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:10.559
So what happens is that when you go through adversity and crisis, your prefrontal cortex literally shrinks.

00:16:10.879 --> 00:16:13.600
And what becomes activated is your emotional brain.

00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:16.320
That's why when somebody is activated, they're triggered.

00:16:16.639 --> 00:16:18.240
That person, their brain.

00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:25.519
Your brain is a physical organ, your mind needs to be renewed, but your brain needs to be rewired.

00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:27.120
That's important.

00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:29.360
Your brain is a physical organ.

00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:30.960
So what happens is we don't understand.

00:16:31.039 --> 00:16:32.639
We're like, what's going on with me?

00:16:32.799 --> 00:16:34.320
Well, what's going on with you?

00:16:34.480 --> 00:16:37.679
Your brain, trauma injures your brain.

00:16:37.840 --> 00:16:38.240
Yeah.

00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:39.759
Let's go to Saul.

00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:44.720
When you grow up, I talk about in Saul's life, I talk about a shame-based nature.

00:16:45.039 --> 00:16:50.960
And I talk about epigenetics, trans intergenerational trauma, I talk about where he came from, I talk about all those different things.

00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:56.960
I talk about he went into leadership with a shame-based nature, fear, shame, fear, control.

00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:02.320
What happens to a leader like Saul that doesn't get healing in their soul?

00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:04.799
It manifests in their leadership.

00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:07.839
That's why they're triggered, that's why they overreact.

00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:10.480
That's why they had an inordinate fear of man, right?

00:17:10.720 --> 00:17:11.440
What's going on?

00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:13.680
Samuel said, Don't do the sacrifice.

00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:14.160
Yeah.

00:17:14.559 --> 00:17:17.279
And he goes, Well, everybody's freaking out, they're leaving me, right?

00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:23.759
So he's he's led by his emotional brain, not by his logical brain, because he had a traumatic upbringing.

00:17:23.839 --> 00:17:25.839
And I talk about that all in this book.

00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:29.759
And so my heart is for leaders, first of all, to understand what's going on.

00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:31.200
Awareness is the key.

00:17:31.359 --> 00:17:33.839
What's going on on the inside of me?

00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:38.079
And uh, matter of fact, I go I went to it, and you've gone to this and brought your kids.

00:17:38.240 --> 00:17:45.359
I go to that summer camp in California, and I brought our kids and um all my kids, and we go on the blob.

00:17:45.759 --> 00:17:47.519
This is how trauma affects the brain.

00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:50.720
So you get a blob, you jump off of one end, right?

00:17:50.799 --> 00:17:56.880
The goal is you jump off of one end, so you compress one side, and then the other side is overextended, right?

00:17:57.680 --> 00:18:01.039
It's really what happens when adversity hits the human brain.

00:18:01.599 --> 00:18:10.880
What happens is your prefrontal cortex is pushed down, you're overwhelmed with your ability to cope, so your emotional brain comes up.

00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:11.920
Does that make sense?

00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:15.839
Your brain does not watch us separate, but it restructures.

00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:16.240
Right.

00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:22.000
Now, here's the cool thing your brain can come back into what's called equilibrium or homeostasis.

00:18:22.319 --> 00:18:26.559
The power of how God designed the human brain is amazing.

00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:27.839
It's amazing.

00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:35.839
So you can process the trauma, you can get healing by the power of Jesus Christ, and you can come back into a place of wholeness.

00:18:35.920 --> 00:18:44.000
So the the premise of the whole book is moving from fragmentation, that's what trauma does to your soul, to a place of wholeness, that's what Christ does in your soul.

00:18:44.079 --> 00:18:45.119
So it's moving from that to that.

00:18:45.359 --> 00:19:01.359
So what the point is, is when you uh are uh you know working with a leader, you know, if you've had the experience, or a family member or something, or you yourself, the concept of they're going crazy, they're losing their mind, or there's some truth to it.

00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:02.319
There's truth to it.

00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:08.000
Well, here's here's a line that you get in therapy, because the book's really a blend of therapy, theology.

00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:09.359
By the way, I'm not a therapist.

00:19:09.440 --> 00:19:10.400
I've had a lot of therapy.

00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:12.799
I can recommend some therapists if you'd like.

00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:22.079
But the the book is a blend of therapy, theology, neuroscience, leadership, and my own personal story.

00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:23.359
Here's a term in therapy.

00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:27.759
If it's his watch this, if it's hysterical, it's historical.

00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:36.880
So the point is you ever you ever you ever commit a misdemeanor in a relationship and they respond with a felony?

00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:39.519
How many of y'all are married?

00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:41.119
Come on, somebody, you know what I'm talking.

00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:48.640
Okay, so so what's happening is you have stepped into the pain of their past.

00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:49.519
Yeah.

00:19:49.920 --> 00:20:05.119
So what happens is a leader that becomes overly controlling with their team, disempowering, and overly critical could be acting out of past wounds that need healing, but not just wounds, a brain that needs to be healed.

00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:05.519
Yeah.

00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:07.839
Trauma is a brain injury.

00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:11.279
I remember as a kid driving down the street and I looked up and there was a hospital.

00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:13.359
I looked, I said, Mom, and it said trauma unit.

00:20:13.599 --> 00:20:15.440
Matter of fact, I saw one coming here, trauma unit.

00:20:15.599 --> 00:20:18.720
Okay, that is related to gunshot wounds, brain.

00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:19.839
Okay, this is important.

00:20:20.160 --> 00:20:21.920
Yeah, you know, car wrecks.

00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:24.400
So you get TBI, traumatic brain injury.

00:20:24.799 --> 00:20:30.000
Psychological, and it there's when you get a TBI, your brain restructures.

00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:32.240
Psychological trauma, guess what?

00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:36.160
It's not blunt force like this, but your brain also restructures.

00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:39.839
So the impact and the fallout becomes the same.

00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:49.519
Fogginess of your ability to think clearly, your your your higher critical thinking skills, your vision casting ability, all of that as a result of a brain that's not well.

00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:50.400
That's good.

00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:53.759
That that's where I felt, Pastor, and it's hard for me to say.

00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:55.119
It was hard for me to say.

00:20:55.359 --> 00:21:04.240
Matter of fact, when I pastor my my board sent me to go see a counselor in Texas, because I didn't want anybody to know I was crazy in Louisiana.

00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:08.240
And uh, this was 15 years ago.

00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:13.920
Now you get extra credit for going to counselors, but but you didn't then, you know.

00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:16.799
So I went there, had like dark glasses, a hat, you know.

00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:19.440
And I walk up to the guy and it's like psychotherapist.

00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:22.640
I'm like, ah, you know, the word psycho.

00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:24.799
It's like, why don't they call him a life coach?

00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:36.319
But anyway, so but but what I but but what I realized was this is important, and this is in the book, this is so important for leaders.

00:21:36.559 --> 00:21:39.440
I developed a thing called a stress continuum.

00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:45.759
And on the stress continuum, there's watch this green, yellow, red.

00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:48.319
Green stress is eustress.

00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:53.119
We need a healthy amount of stress in our lives to invigorate us, to grow, to expand.

00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:55.920
Yellow stress is called chronic stress.

00:21:56.400 --> 00:21:58.559
Red stress is called traumatic stress.

00:21:59.359 --> 00:22:05.920
So as As a leader, there are some things that impact us, such as a hurricane, that we didn't have anything to do with.

00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:09.279
That's called living in a broken cosmos, a broken world.

00:22:09.440 --> 00:22:09.759
Okay.

00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:18.960
But as a leader, we often make decisions that can position our soul in traumatic or chronic stress zones by our own volitional acts.

00:22:19.119 --> 00:22:23.200
So what I produce in the book is a grid structure of how you can make decisions.

00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:25.519
Every yes you say is a no somewhere else.

00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:28.319
Every yes you say to opportunities is influence growth.

00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:36.400
So a lot of leaders actually move their souls into chronic and potentially traumatic stress zones, not because of a hurricane, but because of their own poor choices.

00:22:36.640 --> 00:22:37.599
It's true.

00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:44.799
So some of what I was saying about pace, some of this is affecting some of that that I was just talking about, right?

00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:51.279
Is maybe you're you're reacting to past things or you have fear that you won't get, or whatever it is.

00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:53.440
But I mean, that's wisdom, right?

00:22:53.599 --> 00:22:59.839
If you're in one of those zones, you don't want to make major decisions in those moments, right?

00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:00.480
Absolutely.

00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:01.440
Here's what I know.

00:23:01.519 --> 00:23:02.720
I can feel it in my stomach.

00:23:02.799 --> 00:23:05.519
I'm aware now, I'm very aware physiologically.

00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:07.759
Here's I want to say this about trauma.

00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:15.359
Trauma's not the event, it's what happens to your brain and body inside of you after the event.

00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:16.000
Right.

00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:17.839
You carry it after the event.

00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:19.920
And it's trauma's a buzzword today.

00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:21.599
You know, trauma, that was trauma.

00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:23.920
Trauma is just crisis.

00:23:24.319 --> 00:23:26.480
There's a crisis, is really the word.

00:23:26.720 --> 00:23:29.599
Trauma is the restructuring of your brain.

00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:31.200
Does that make sense?

00:23:31.680 --> 00:23:32.400
So you can't.

00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:34.720
So here's what's this is why this is so important.

00:23:35.119 --> 00:23:40.240
I know now when my brain is getting in an unhealthy place, and this is important.

00:23:40.480 --> 00:23:42.960
And the brain and the mind are so closely connected.

00:23:43.119 --> 00:23:44.000
Incorporeal.

00:23:44.079 --> 00:23:46.480
The mind is without matter, the brain is with matter.

00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:49.599
The brain and mind are so connected, this is important.

00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:51.359
What's that big word you just used?

00:23:51.599 --> 00:23:52.400
Incorporeal.

00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:53.039
Without matter.

00:23:53.599 --> 00:23:54.000
That's powerful.

00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:55.279
Let's use that today at lunch.

00:23:55.519 --> 00:23:56.960
Incorporeal.

00:23:57.440 --> 00:23:58.720
That feels powerful.

00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:00.240
You make fun of my jacket.

00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:03.200
You said I'm wearing Western wear, and now you said my words are big.

00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:04.240
But anyway.

00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:06.160
But this is important.

00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:09.839
The brain and the mind are so deeply connected, it's like this.

00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:13.200
It's like a duplex that shares the same front door.

00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:18.559
But both of them are changed by neuroplasticity.

00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:21.680
Neuro is where we get the word from the nervous system, the brain.

00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:25.599
You renew the mind, you rewire the brain.

00:24:25.839 --> 00:24:27.759
Now, why is this so important, Jeff?

00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:32.480
As leaders, we have a lot more control over our lives and schedules as we realize.

00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:35.359
You're not a victim, you can be empowered.

00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:42.720
Things can be damaging to us, people can hurt us, but our we have control over our responses.

00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:45.759
We can keep ourselves in that green and yellow zone.

00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:49.039
I know when I'm making decisions, I'm taking too much on my schedule.

00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:54.240
I I strategically didn't get my doctorate because I knew with Coach Tom, y'all wanted me to do it, you wanted me to do it.

00:24:54.319 --> 00:25:00.880
But I knew I had boys in high school, okay, and and I knew the energy output.

00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:03.680
So I was like, if I do that, something's gonna break.

00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:04.559
Are y'all with me?

00:25:05.279 --> 00:25:07.119
And as a leader, you've got to be strategic.

00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:09.200
That's why Paul says, Redeem the time.

00:25:09.279 --> 00:25:10.880
You you we have to be wise.

00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:11.440
Right.

00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:13.759
I want to talk about Moses for a moment.

00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:14.240
Okay.

00:25:14.559 --> 00:25:15.759
It's like, can I get into Moses?

00:25:16.160 --> 00:25:16.319
Yeah.

00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:19.039
Moses to Saul.

00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:20.240
I like Saul.

00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:21.279
You like Saul too?

00:25:21.440 --> 00:25:23.119
Let me finish with Saul.

00:25:24.640 --> 00:25:25.920
You're the pastor.

00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:33.119
Saul had a tragic ending.

00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:44.559
Because one of the one of the one of the greatest ways to get healed from unprocessed trauma is through processing with safe people.

00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:48.400
He cut off his safe person.

00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:49.119
100%.

00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:50.240
100%.

00:25:50.720 --> 00:25:51.839
He cut off his profit.

00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:55.920
By the way, let me encourage everybody.

00:25:56.400 --> 00:25:58.319
That is so big what you're talking about.

00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:01.039
Because I think a lot of people are like, what happened?

00:26:01.599 --> 00:26:03.359
Usually there's trauma.

00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:03.839
Yeah.

00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:06.160
There's coping mechanisms.

00:26:06.319 --> 00:26:06.480
Yeah.

00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:07.920
There's isolation.

00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:11.599
But the root is you stop listening to the people God put in your life.

00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:16.400
Well, what happens is when your brain is traumatized, you're foggy and you feel threatened.

00:26:16.480 --> 00:26:20.799
You're hyper-vigilant, your amygdala is hyperactive, so you withdraw.

00:26:21.039 --> 00:26:22.640
So he withdraws from his prophet.

00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:26.079
By the way, David went through trauma, but he never cut off Jonathan.

00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:38.640
So what happens is when you cut off your prophet, when you cut off your pastor, when you cut off community, when your brain is traumatized, the only what you end up doing is you end up visiting the witch at Endor.

00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:50.880
So good.

00:26:51.440 --> 00:26:54.160
So when you see a leader, what happened to them?

00:26:54.319 --> 00:26:57.599
They were traumatized, they didn't process with anybody.

00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:03.519
They cut off people because they perceived him as a threat rather than as a resource to help them, and they end up in deception.

00:27:04.960 --> 00:27:07.920
Because what you soothe with, you will serve.

00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:10.480
It better be the presence of God.

00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:16.079
So Saul, in the end of his life, was so tragic, it didn't have to be.

00:27:16.240 --> 00:27:23.119
I talk about a lot of business people in here and different people that ended up in tragic situations that it doesn't have to be there.

00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:31.119
By the way, the greatest predictor of people getting through adversity and coming out good on the other side is their social support network that they built beforehand.

00:27:31.359 --> 00:27:33.200
So I talk about pre-crisis plan.

00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:37.759
The issue is not whether you're going to go through crisis, it's are you prepared when you go through crisis?

00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:41.519
Don't wait to put up we're uh we live in hurricane zone, right, where I live.

00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:45.839
Don't wait to put up hurricane shutters when it's a cat two on the front door category.

00:27:46.079 --> 00:27:46.640
Does that make sense?

00:27:46.720 --> 00:27:46.880
Yeah.

00:27:47.119 --> 00:27:49.920
And what a lot of leaders do is they're going through crisis.

00:27:50.079 --> 00:27:51.039
I need somebody.

00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:57.599
Oh, you better build the relational framework on the front end before you need somebody so that when you do need somebody, they're actually there.

00:27:57.839 --> 00:27:58.400
100%.

00:27:59.359 --> 00:28:04.160
So And you have to, you have to, you have to be the person who invites.

00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:10.079
Most leaders are gonna hesitate to really be that where you need them to be.

00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:17.599
I mean, that's my greatest advice to leaders is also be coachable and be stay in that posture.

00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:19.680
Yeah, that person's trying to help you.

00:28:19.839 --> 00:28:20.079
Yes.

00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:22.559
They have no angle or no reason to not.

00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:22.960
Yes.

00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:24.799
So keeping yourself in that position.

00:28:25.279 --> 00:28:32.559
So in trauma therapy, they do they have a whole therapy called to part of the strategy is reauthoring the story.

00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:36.400
You when you go through something, you don't see it clearly.

00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:42.319
What healthy processing does is helps you to understand the narrative more clearly.

00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:42.640
Right.

00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:55.839
It helps you to, with when you have a godly person in your life, and so I I advocate counseling, but I'll tell you this: through your relationship with God and healthy relationships, most of what you need to regain health is in that right there.

00:28:56.000 --> 00:28:57.759
There are some, and I talk about in the book.

00:28:57.839 --> 00:28:58.960
So, when do you need counseling?

00:28:59.039 --> 00:29:10.079
I talk about the intensity of the trauma, I talk about the duration of it, I talk about when I think you need to step aside and get some healing, but but most of it is can be through healthy processing and healthy relationships.

00:29:10.160 --> 00:29:12.400
And so um, let's talk about Moses.

00:29:13.359 --> 00:29:16.960
Yeah, and this is this is in the book.

00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:25.279
Everybody say trauma, everybody say triggers, triggers, everybody say terrible habits, terrible habits.

00:29:25.519 --> 00:29:28.000
That's the first part of the soul leadership cycle.

00:29:28.480 --> 00:29:32.319
Because when you're activated and you're triggered, you should become aware.

00:29:32.480 --> 00:29:34.799
Why am I so quickly dysregulated?

00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:36.079
Why?

00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:38.319
So I do a study on Moses.

00:29:38.559 --> 00:29:40.559
Moses was born into trauma.

00:29:40.960 --> 00:29:41.839
I mean, he was born.

00:29:41.920 --> 00:29:45.680
He's I his he's he's you know, has to his mom sends him down the Nile.

00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:47.839
I mean, he's raising, he's raised in two cultures.

00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:52.400
He's he's Hebrew, but he's in Egypt, and my gosh, and what am I gonna do?

00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:59.200
And and and then, of course, through the whole thing, and he kills the you know, the Egyptian, then he's on the backside of the desert, comes back.

00:29:59.279 --> 00:29:59.839
This is important.

00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:03.279
God, when he starts leading, he leads the people out.

00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:07.920
And this is why leadership, this book was written two leaders, but it's not only written four leaders.

00:30:08.319 --> 00:30:14.559
The principles apply to everybody because what happened to Moses is there were three or four things that took place with him in the wilderness.

00:30:14.720 --> 00:30:21.039
Number one, it's tough on the soul of a leader to live under constant complaint and accusations.

00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:22.079
So true.

00:30:22.319 --> 00:30:25.839
And I talk about the the piercing blows of accusation.

00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:32.799
That's why you better have some people close to you that are telling the truth to you, who love you, that encourage you.

00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:33.200
True.

00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:44.319
I'm not suggesting we can't learn from criticism, but the voices I've learned as I've grown, the voices outside my inner circle have gotten, I've got I've gotten really dim to those voices.

00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:45.839
I want to hear those that love me.

00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:49.200
So, number one, accusation, watch this, and complaints.

00:30:49.359 --> 00:30:51.839
Number two, delays, disappointment.

00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:52.319
Yeah.

00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:53.599
When are we gonna get in?

00:30:53.759 --> 00:30:54.640
When are we gonna get in?

00:30:54.720 --> 00:30:56.240
When are we gonna get in the promised land?

00:30:56.319 --> 00:30:57.279
Why is it taking so long?

00:30:57.359 --> 00:30:59.519
Why is it why is the building campaign taking so long?

00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:00.400
What's going on?

00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:01.200
What's going on?

00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:02.319
This guy came up to me once.

00:31:02.559 --> 00:31:07.519
We've been, we're in the we have the longest building project in the history of American Christianity going on right now.

00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:09.279
We've been building a building for 20 years.

00:31:09.359 --> 00:31:10.240
We're gonna go in this summer.

00:31:10.319 --> 00:31:12.000
This guy came up and he goes, When are we gonna get in?

00:31:12.079 --> 00:31:13.440
And I thought to my, he's very wealthy.

00:31:13.519 --> 00:31:15.599
I thought to myself, you could solve this problem real quick.

00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:18.000
Hallelujah.

00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:28.319
I was triggered, but anyway, so and and and so Moses dealing with delays, dealing with criticism, dealing with accusation.

00:31:28.400 --> 00:31:30.319
Then his sister dies, Miriam.

00:31:30.559 --> 00:31:31.920
Ah, grief.

00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:35.759
And then we come to Numbers 20.

00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:44.240
And the people are thirsty, and God tells Moses, speak to that rock.

00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:48.319
Take up your staff and speak to that rock.

00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:50.559
And he goes, and what does he do?

00:31:50.799 --> 00:31:58.720
You knew that it was gonna be a bad day when he starts off with the you with with the with the beginning introduction of the service, and he goes, You rebels.

00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:01.680
Isn't that a great pastoral greeting?

00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:03.759
And he strikes the rock.

00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:04.799
Bam!

00:32:05.839 --> 00:32:07.839
And God told him, He says, You know what?

00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:11.920
You're gonna go up on Mount Nebo, you're gonna see the promised land, but I'm not letting you take them in.

00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:18.640
A leader who gets dysregulated, easily triggered, and acts out.

00:32:18.799 --> 00:32:21.599
Remember this what you don't work out, you will act out.

00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:22.559
So good.

00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:24.640
Let me tell you something, it costs you leadership influence.

00:32:25.039 --> 00:32:27.599
If you don't work out, you will act out.

00:32:27.839 --> 00:32:29.039
You'll act out.

00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:30.400
So good.

00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:38.000
So I I my passion, Jeff, is to help people, number one, identify, I understand what's going on.

00:32:38.079 --> 00:32:41.039
Okay, so I'm so I'm traumatized, so I got to deal with my brain.

00:32:41.119 --> 00:32:42.079
Okay, how do I do this?

00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:43.119
I give a pathway.

00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:44.240
There's so much information.

00:32:44.319 --> 00:32:46.400
That's three, almost 300 footnotes.

00:32:46.640 --> 00:32:49.279
It's very uh footnoted very well.

00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:56.960
But but number two, I want to talk about building resilience because I think that we can put enough fuel on the airplane on the front end to be able to deal with crisis.

00:32:57.119 --> 00:33:02.400
You can mitigate the impact of trauma in your brain by building resilience in your soul.

00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:03.920
Let me say that again.

00:33:04.160 --> 00:33:07.200
You can mitigate psychological impact.

00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:15.200
So you can reduce the potentiality of your brain being traumatized by you increasing resilience in your soul.

00:33:15.519 --> 00:33:18.319
So it's it's kind of the concept of like distant runners.

00:33:18.400 --> 00:33:26.319
People talk about eating pasta the night before the marathon, but really it's it's the nutrition level for months leading up before the big event.

00:33:26.559 --> 00:33:31.759
Yeah, I talk so in the book I talk about relationships, how to build resilience through relationships, physical health.

00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:34.799
Let me give you just one thing that I can teach you, just one thing.

00:33:35.039 --> 00:33:36.559
The power of walking.

00:33:36.799 --> 00:33:38.000
And I teach about it in the book.

00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:44.559
You know, EMDR is a is a trauma therapy, and it's all about bilateral stimulation of the brain, and it is it heals the brain.

00:33:44.720 --> 00:33:48.559
So here's here's what I all this is research in the book.

00:33:48.720 --> 00:34:03.359
When you walk, say you and your wife are walking and you have positive conversation with your wife, you're actually doing natural, God-given EMDR by the healing of the brain through bilateral stimulation of going right, left, right, left, right, left.

00:34:03.440 --> 00:34:10.079
So physical exercise, when I went through my burnout, what happened to me, what I realized now is two years I didn't work out well because I got hurt.

00:34:10.239 --> 00:34:19.760
I went to Israel in 2008, I hurt my right foot, wearing the wrong shoes, which then hurt my left knee, which then caused about an 18-month problem of working out.

00:34:19.920 --> 00:34:21.679
So you'd been a runner.

00:34:22.159 --> 00:34:23.199
I've been a runner my whole life.

00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:31.679
So your physical health, we're talking about building resilience to to to watch this, to mitigate, which means to limit the impact.

00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:37.519
You can't stop the crisis, but you can stop the psychological impact when you have a high resilience quotient.

00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:38.400
Does that make sense?

00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:40.719
Physical health is critical.

00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:46.480
So emotional health, physical health, I talk about relational health and all of these habits.

00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:49.679
Because when you get on the other side of healing, you need to build up again, right?

00:34:49.840 --> 00:34:51.360
You need to get fuel on the plane.

00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:55.599
If you got to be redo, if you're detoured somewhere else, you don't want to crash.

00:34:55.760 --> 00:34:56.079
Yeah.

00:34:56.400 --> 00:34:58.159
Crisis is going to happen.

00:34:58.320 --> 00:35:01.119
So, number one, trauma triggers terrible habits.

00:35:01.280 --> 00:35:14.400
And by the way, let me say this: if you find yourself with what's called maladaptive strategies to meet, to bring peace to your soul through bad habits, I'm telling you, there's things going on in your brain and your body.

00:35:14.719 --> 00:35:16.400
God wants to heal those.

00:35:17.440 --> 00:35:33.280
Number two, God wants to help you to build resilience habits, to increase your emotional, mental, physical, and relational strength so that when crisis does come, your brain can stay in a place of homeostasis where it's not triggered.

00:35:33.440 --> 00:35:36.960
There's not a re- listen, it can stay integrated.

00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:40.719
I I end the book with what's called PTG.

00:35:40.880 --> 00:35:42.800
PTG is post-traumatic growth.

00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:50.719
There's a new field in trauma therapy where you've heard this because you've taught on this, talk about fixed mindsets.

00:35:50.800 --> 00:35:52.719
There is no such thing as a fixed mindset.

00:35:53.199 --> 00:35:55.679
Your mindset is either increasing or decreasing.

00:35:55.760 --> 00:35:58.400
It's it's going, it's regressing or it's progressing.

00:35:58.480 --> 00:35:58.559
Yeah.

00:35:58.719 --> 00:36:01.199
And that's because of neuroplasticity, right?

00:36:01.840 --> 00:36:04.880
So what I talk about, so pastor, so I'm traumatized, what do I do?

00:36:04.960 --> 00:36:15.360
And that that, by the way, was pretty groundbreaking that the idea that the brain had this neuroplasticity and could re that that rewire.

00:36:15.679 --> 00:36:18.079
That's not like something that 100 years ago, right?

00:36:18.159 --> 00:36:20.480
Like that's been a relatively last 20 years.

00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:21.360
20 years, okay.

00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:25.119
PTSD, by the way, last 40 years, it was Vietnam veterans came back for the war.

00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:26.079
They could like, what's wrong?

00:36:26.239 --> 00:36:27.440
Why can't they get traction?

00:36:27.599 --> 00:36:28.079
Not all.

00:36:28.239 --> 00:36:28.559
Yeah.

00:36:28.719 --> 00:36:31.280
And and and so that's been really the last 30 years.

00:36:31.360 --> 00:36:33.920
And and remember, operative word is stress.

00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:45.679
And I want to say this your brain can get traumatized not just through an assault, a rape, a hurricane, some abusive situation.

00:36:46.079 --> 00:36:55.760
But it also can it's called cumulative trauma, a problem with a board member, kid with a kid on drugs, a little marriage bomb.

00:36:55.840 --> 00:36:58.719
So you're it's a there's there's it's sudden or cumulative.

00:36:59.119 --> 00:37:00.400
You talk about the evil day, right?

00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:02.880
Like you have these multiple things coming your way.

00:37:03.280 --> 00:37:04.880
So I want to talk about healing for a moment.

00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:07.199
So, Pastor, if I'm traumatized, what do I do?

00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:08.079
Again, I've talked about it.

00:37:08.239 --> 00:37:12.079
But before you talk about healing, though, let me let me let me sit here for a minute, though.

00:37:13.280 --> 00:37:17.440
We're talking about hurricane, we're talking about Vietnam War.

00:37:18.400 --> 00:37:26.000
The reason this is so important, what these people do, yeah, it's it's full on hand-to-hand combat.

00:37:27.199 --> 00:37:28.960
It's medieval warfare, okay?

00:37:29.119 --> 00:37:31.280
Like we are, we are we're in.

00:37:31.760 --> 00:37:47.519
So so just I want to I want to start here for a second because we could kind of exempt ourselves and be like, well, you know, that's for what if you haven't had, if you have a crisis, you're obviously keyed in going, okay, I've had a crisis, I'm having trouble sleeping, I'm medicating this way, I got a problem of marriage.

00:37:47.840 --> 00:37:53.920
But what about just the ongoing stress of being a Christian ministry leader?

00:37:54.159 --> 00:37:55.519
In the age of social media.

00:37:55.679 --> 00:37:56.559
Yeah, I get that.

00:37:56.800 --> 00:37:57.760
Let's talk about this for a minute.

00:37:57.840 --> 00:38:06.079
Just well, if you if you look at COVID, I know probably the top five most influential pastors that I know of, I won't use their names.

00:38:06.239 --> 00:38:07.760
Three of them wanted to quit.

00:38:08.559 --> 00:38:11.920
And here's and here's the issue because of what happened, right?

00:38:12.079 --> 00:38:16.400
They were they started to assess what it would take, the energy outlet to rebuild and whatnot.

00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:17.679
So here's the deal.

00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:21.679
If you're tired, you take a nap.

00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:25.519
But if you're traumatized, there's a different pathway to healing.

00:38:25.840 --> 00:38:29.360
And what happens to a lot of people is they don't understand what's going on.

00:38:29.519 --> 00:38:29.840
Right.

00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:35.840
When you're a pastor and you're navigating the political realities that we're dealing with, all the political and social media.

00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:36.880
Should I posted that?

00:38:37.039 --> 00:38:38.159
Should I not posted that?

00:38:38.320 --> 00:38:40.719
What you're doing is that's called weight.

00:38:40.880 --> 00:38:42.880
Remember, the operative word is stress.

00:38:43.039 --> 00:38:43.920
Everybody say stress.

00:38:44.239 --> 00:38:44.559
Stress.

00:38:44.719 --> 00:38:50.000
Remember, we want to we want to operate, and this is all in the book, in the green and in the yellow zone.

00:38:50.079 --> 00:38:51.760
There are times of press, right?

00:38:51.840 --> 00:38:54.960
You're medical student, you're studying for exams, you're gonna be in the chronic stress.

00:38:55.039 --> 00:38:57.280
You can't live there, you can't make that your permanent residence.

00:38:58.000 --> 00:39:07.119
So, what happens to a pastor is a pastor, they get in that yellow zone, and then there's a social media blow up, then there's this, and there's a board problem, and then somebody, and then there's a paper.

00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:09.440
Now you're starting to move into that red zone.

00:39:09.599 --> 00:39:09.920
Right.

00:39:10.159 --> 00:39:15.840
Traumatic stress, that's your acute stress disorder, PTSD, complex PTSD zone.

00:39:16.239 --> 00:39:20.559
People don't understand this is not just spiritual.

00:39:21.280 --> 00:39:22.559
I want to say this to you.

00:39:22.719 --> 00:39:24.960
You can't pray trauma away.

00:39:27.920 --> 00:39:28.559
You can't.

00:39:28.719 --> 00:39:33.760
And I believe in prayer and I'll and I believe I pray and confess the word and all that.

00:39:33.920 --> 00:39:39.199
You're talking about physiological, it's an organ, your brain.

00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:44.880
Okay, so there's a spiritual component, absolutely, but there's a physical component to this.

00:39:45.039 --> 00:39:45.760
Does that make sense?

00:39:46.480 --> 00:39:49.920
So for the leader that's going, they don't understand what's going on.

00:39:50.000 --> 00:40:02.719
That's why your emotional health, your physical health, your spiritual health, your relational health is so germane and essential to you both wording, both mitigating the impact of trauma and also in the recovery process.

00:40:02.960 --> 00:40:03.920
So give us some steps.

00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:06.000
Talk to us about healing steps.

00:40:06.159 --> 00:40:06.719
What do we do?

00:40:07.039 --> 00:40:10.800
One of the things that happened when I was writing my dissertation was, and I really appreciate Dr.

00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:11.360
Jim V.

00:40:11.519 --> 00:40:14.880
Hill because he really pushed me on the power of the cross.

00:40:15.039 --> 00:40:18.400
And he said, Steve, I I you you've got a lot of psychological stuff.

00:40:18.480 --> 00:40:19.760
I've done a lot of research.

00:40:19.920 --> 00:40:22.320
He says, but I I want you to interact with the cross.

00:40:22.400 --> 00:40:28.239
And I'm really grateful for that because I did an in-depth study on the atonement, and uh, as many people have.

00:40:28.320 --> 00:40:30.320
And what I realized was about the atonement.

00:40:30.400 --> 00:40:36.400
The atonement doesn't just forgive what's been happening, doesn't just forgive what we've done, the blood of Christ.

00:40:36.559 --> 00:40:43.519
But the atonement also addresses the emotional and psychological dimensions where there's been impact and pain of things that have been done to us.

00:40:43.840 --> 00:40:44.239
So good.

00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:51.119
And so I talk about, I talk about uh some Hebrew words in there, and when he talks about, he carries away our sorrows.

00:40:51.199 --> 00:40:53.679
The word sorrow there is mental anguish and pain.

00:40:53.840 --> 00:40:57.440
So healing for psychological trauma is actually in the atonement.

00:40:57.679 --> 00:40:58.239
It's good.

00:40:58.480 --> 00:40:59.679
It's actually in the atonement.

00:40:59.840 --> 00:41:04.480
And when I talk about this, when I talk about in the chastisement for our peace, everybody say peace.

00:41:04.719 --> 00:41:05.039
Peace.

00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:07.360
The word peace there is the Hebrew word shalom.

00:41:07.519 --> 00:41:11.360
The word shalom is much greater than just peace, it's actually wholeness.

00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:14.079
So when you're traumatized, you're in fragmentation.

00:41:14.159 --> 00:41:16.800
When you're in the presence of God, God brings you into wholeness.

00:41:17.199 --> 00:41:19.599
Why is it that people cry during worship?

00:41:19.760 --> 00:41:21.440
Why do people cry during worship?

00:41:21.519 --> 00:41:24.480
It's not because we're playing reruns of old yeller up here.

00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:27.360
Come on, how many of y'all cried during old yeller?

00:41:27.599 --> 00:41:29.679
If you didn't raise your hand, you're lying or you're too young.

00:41:29.760 --> 00:41:30.239
Come on, some.

00:41:31.599 --> 00:41:34.000
The reason why, listen, let me tell you why they're crying.

00:41:34.079 --> 00:41:35.199
Here's why they're crying.

00:41:35.440 --> 00:41:42.400
Because one of the breakthroughs that trauma therapy has really discovered is counselors, please hear this.

00:41:42.639 --> 00:41:45.760
Counselors were treating the wrong part of the brain.

00:41:46.079 --> 00:41:51.840
Talk therapy alone, dealing with just talking about the problem, does not bring healing to a traumatized brain.

00:41:51.920 --> 00:41:53.679
That's dealing with your prefrontal cortex.

00:41:53.840 --> 00:41:59.920
What trauma therapists, skilled trauma therapists realize, I'm gonna tie this together, is that you got to do bottom-up therapy.

00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:03.519
You got to address the limbic system where the pain is stuck.

00:42:03.760 --> 00:42:05.440
Your pain is stuck where?

00:42:05.679 --> 00:42:09.920
In your amygdala, which is your emotional center in your hippocampus, where those memories are.

00:42:10.079 --> 00:42:21.199
What happens in worship is the presence of God unlocks your amygdala and it unlocks your memories and it disconnects the pain with the memory where you'll remember it, but you won't feel the pain anymore.

00:42:21.440 --> 00:42:23.039
That happens in the presence of God.

00:42:23.280 --> 00:42:23.920
So good.

00:42:24.159 --> 00:42:25.679
That's all in this book.

00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:26.800
So good.

00:42:27.039 --> 00:42:34.559
So, so secular counseling can bring you to a measure of healing, just simply processing it with trauma therapists.

00:42:34.719 --> 00:42:42.880
But a Christian who understands how to access the presence of God, apply the atonement to their life, brings not just relief, but healing to the soul.

00:42:43.519 --> 00:42:44.719
Healing to the soul.

00:42:44.960 --> 00:42:52.159
So, so having said that, on the recovery side, I talk a lot about the presence of God.

00:42:52.320 --> 00:42:54.880
I do studies, I talk about the gamma waves.

00:42:55.199 --> 00:43:05.519
There are studies that I did of literal gamma waves that go through the brain during worship and what happens to your brain in worship.

00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:09.599
And that's why lost people, they'll come into your church, they'll start crying.

00:43:09.920 --> 00:43:10.480
Yeah.

00:43:10.800 --> 00:43:12.400
That they're feeling the presence of God.

00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:15.599
I have the I have the research of why why that's happening in there.

00:43:15.760 --> 00:43:19.039
And so I want to end with this, Pastor.

00:43:19.280 --> 00:43:22.480
And um it's PTG.

00:43:23.440 --> 00:43:25.920
What happens to somebody that's damaged?

00:43:26.159 --> 00:43:36.480
And I was damaged, and I've walked through a lot of that, both by way of upbringing and in ministry, and and uh thank God for pastors, thank God for friends like you, Jeff, and thank God for good help.

00:43:37.039 --> 00:43:51.119
But the good news is when when your arm breaks, you know, an orthopedic surgeon will tell you the calcification of the bone marrow, that your your bone gets temporarily stronger, but then it goes back and it just kind of it just equalizes.

00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:55.039
Resilience is returning to baseline.

00:43:55.920 --> 00:43:58.960
Post traumatic growth is leaping forward and getting better.

00:43:59.360 --> 00:43:59.840
That's really good.

00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:17.360
When a leader goes through healing and they experience post-traumatic growth, they become more empathetic, more filled with wisdom, the ability to build teams, the ability to become self-aware, the ability to does that make sense?

00:44:18.159 --> 00:44:23.360
You can become a better leader, a better father, a better mother, a better all you you can actually grow.

00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:27.840
We kind of preach messages on, you know, walking with the limp or after you've wrestled with something.

00:44:28.079 --> 00:44:38.159
I mean, there's there's a concept here of what you're saying is on the back side, you're stronger, but you also have those those deposits of humility and grace.

00:44:38.239 --> 00:44:40.480
And you know, we test is your testimony.

00:44:40.559 --> 00:44:44.320
That is, there's what's called neuroscientific realities attached to that.

00:44:44.480 --> 00:44:44.719
Yeah.

00:44:44.880 --> 00:44:52.400
It it's so it's scripturally borne out, but there's also science attached to why somebody that processes pain and trauma comes out on the other side stronger.

00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:54.159
So that brings hope to you guys.

00:44:54.239 --> 00:44:56.000
And I'd like to say that to everybody.

00:44:56.239 --> 00:45:04.719
There's healing in the presence of God, God will heal your emotional center, God'll heal those memories, and what he'll do is he'll disconnect the pain from that memory.

00:45:04.800 --> 00:45:07.119
You'll remember it, but you won't feel that pain anymore.

00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:10.079
Number two, you can build resilience.

00:45:10.320 --> 00:45:11.679
Number three, you can process.

00:45:11.760 --> 00:45:13.599
That's why we need the body of Christ.

00:45:13.760 --> 00:45:16.960
Yeah, that's why we need the church, imperfect that we are.

00:45:17.119 --> 00:45:20.159
But then number three, you can come out stronger, leader.

00:45:20.239 --> 00:45:21.760
You can come out better on the other side.

00:45:21.840 --> 00:45:33.679
I'm not believing for traumatic experiences, but I know that when I go through crisis, when I experience pain, if I process it well in the peaceful presence of God with God's people, I can come out stronger on the other side.

00:45:34.320 --> 00:45:35.039
I don't know.

00:45:35.199 --> 00:45:44.400
If there's an if there's an emoji, come on, anybody feeling the emoji where your brain's like just right now going, whoa, wow.

00:45:44.639 --> 00:45:51.519
Such I I know it, I know all of your backstory, I know your process, I know your study.

00:45:51.599 --> 00:46:10.559
So I want to say thank you to you because like I I know your care for the individual, like your passion really is that you want every person listening to build that resilience, to get that help, to because we we need we need we need every team member, right?

00:46:10.639 --> 00:46:11.519
We need everybody on the team.

00:46:12.079 --> 00:46:18.320
Pastor, what I'll say, Pastor Jeff, and I want to say this in the end that the main thing that I want to do is I want to remove the stigma from people getting help.

00:46:18.639 --> 00:46:18.800
Yeah.

00:46:19.360 --> 00:46:30.880
Because if that leader, that leader, one of the greatest leaders in the body of Christ from years ago, I remember hearing one of the most scary testimonies I've ever heard when he said, Who could I talk to?

00:46:31.280 --> 00:46:31.440
Yeah.

00:46:32.239 --> 00:46:34.400
So I don't want to say another thing.

00:46:35.039 --> 00:46:36.079
You stayed in the game.

00:46:36.320 --> 00:46:37.199
Yeah, I stayed in the game.

00:46:37.360 --> 00:46:38.400
I want to say thank you for that.

00:46:38.480 --> 00:46:44.880
Yeah, you stayed in the game, you know, because I want to hear from somebody that's still in the game.

00:46:44.960 --> 00:46:45.280
Yeah.

00:46:45.440 --> 00:46:52.079
I want to, I want, I want to hear from somebody that's kept their faith, kept their the Bible, the word, the truth.

00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:54.639
They'll so thank you.

00:46:54.880 --> 00:46:56.320
I think you can stay in the game.

00:46:56.480 --> 00:46:58.639
You don't have to quit ministry.

00:46:58.719 --> 00:47:01.360
You can stay strong, you can stay in the game, you can get strong.

00:47:01.440 --> 00:47:03.920
And I'll tell you this, you can still build significant church.

00:47:04.079 --> 00:47:04.480
Yes.

00:47:04.719 --> 00:47:08.960
You can, but first, build a significantly strong soul.

00:47:09.199 --> 00:47:15.119
I want to say thank you for checking out this episode of the Lead to Win podcast.

00:47:15.280 --> 00:47:26.079
I want you to know that I love and my team loves getting this kind of content into your life so it can help you lead and win at what matters most.

00:47:26.239 --> 00:47:39.679
So I'd love for you to do me a favor like, comment, especially subscribe if you would, so that we can make sure that we're able to get to you some of the things that are gonna help you lead to win.