It's Not About the Platform

What A Worship Win Looks Like

SPEAKER_04 0:00

A win for a worship leader is to be involved in the life of church. Don't just come and lead worship, but be involved in the life of the church because you need to actually have relationships and know people that you're leading, not just come in and lead your songs and leave. Not just come in and go into the green room and never come out. As a worship leader, it's important that we keep our eyes on God, but we also keep our eyes on the people because there are people in there. This may be the first time they've walked into the doors of a church.

Why Worship Shapes Church Theology

SPEAKER_05 0:27

We're not married to models. We're not even married to music. We're married to bringing the people into the presence of God. The methods change. I want to welcome you back to the Lead to Win podcast where we're helping leaders win in the areas of life that matter the most. I have with me Betsy Caswell, my longtime friend, her and her husband Tyron have been a part of our church since the very beginning. She's like my sister. We have worked together for many years. And I thought that many of you would enjoy just having a leadership conversation around the area of worship, but I don't think it just pertains to worship. I think because we have people that listen to this podcast that don't, you know, they're not leading in a church setting. Right. I'm always encouraged by, I recently got an email from someone who had a new assignment in business, a lady that was leading, and she was like, it really encourages me. Um I also have like a lot of our leadership teams in at Milestone tune in.

SPEAKER_03 1:36

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:37

We have a college, we have y'all have a leadership practicum. So there's a lot of different groups of people that listen. But I I do think specifically also for those who lead in the area of worship, you're always looking for help.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:55

Right. So you watch a lot of podcasts, listen to a lot of podcasts just to glean and grow and listen to what people do. So I'm excited that you would come because I wanted to, I wanted to interview you. I wanted, I want you to share from your position, because I have a perspective, but then you have a perspective from where you sit and what you have been assigned to that I think could encourage people. Not everybody understands putting on church services.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Right.

SPEAKER_05 2:25

But I do like to remind people that the worship leader gets a big portion of the time.

SPEAKER_03 2:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 2:31

Right. So they're in front of the people. They're there, you know, as as Rick Warren said years ago, you can change a person's uh a church's theology faster than you can change their music. You know, heart, DNA.

SPEAKER_04 2:45

And music carries theology. The stewardship of what we do on the platform through worship is such a big part of the theology that people catch. 80% is what um the the studies say. 80% of people's theology is caught through music.

SPEAKER_05 3:00

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 3:01

It's crazy. It's a big stewardship.

SPEAKER_05 3:04

It's a big stewardship. So I want everybody so so this Lead to Win podcast, the team started asking me to do this. We've we've had a meeting for 20 plus 20 plus years. 20 plus years on Monday.

SPEAKER_04 3:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 3:18

Yourself, some of the worship leaders you've raised up, some of our communication people, some of my team that help with sermon.

SPEAKER_04 3:25

Creative table full of people that have all different types of creative gifts bringing it together. You're a creative. A lot of people wouldn't necessarily know that about you, but you're like the chief creative in our church. And so it really is a gift that we get to gather together. I think that relationship dynamic of just that we're not creating services and moments for people to encounter Jesus in a silo.

SPEAKER_02 3:48

Right.

SPEAKER_04 3:49

Like we're not doing our part and somebody over here is doing their part, but we're all creating those moments together. I think that is the magic, if you will, of what we do and putting services together that are making an impact on people's lives.

SPEAKER_05 4:03

I talk to pastors, you know, it has to fit with your flow. I like to take off at the end of the week. So I kind of like to get the, as I call it, I was describing it to a pastor. It's like a chef. When you watch these cooking shows, which are so popular now, you have a chef, but there's these other Sioux chefs, and there's prep people. Absolutely. And we're all kind of putting it together.

SPEAKER_04 4:23

Putting the recipe together.

SPEAKER_05 4:24

And so I like to get that pot cooking at the first of the week. And of course, we also have things like we've been working on Easter this week. We've been back and forth. Songs.

SPEAKER_04 4:35

What about the And then after that, it's Mother's Day and SummerSplash and all of our women's events and all the things. There's something always coming.

SPEAKER_05 4:42

Yeah, it's Sunday is coming, and for our church, Saturday with amazing regularity. Absolutely. So we've done that for 20 plus years, sat at that table. Take everybody back, though, for a moment. Yeah. Because I think there's going to be some real nuggets of wisdom on, you know, just a leadership perspective on worship, raising up, empowering. If I really were to think about this, to have multiple platforms and multiple worship leaders, people could translate this to whatever it is they're leading in, but specifically, like you're empowering other leaders. What, what, what responsibility to empowerment? How do you know who to power? You're giving someone a lot of power when you give them. We have campuses that have over 2,000 people in the campus. So our youth guys, your son-in-law, his first night had 800 kids.

SPEAKER_04 5:39

800 kids at the first service. That's wild. It took us. My husband was the youth pastor for many years, 17 years, and he was like, Luca, it took one night for you to get what I worked for like 12 years to get. He's like, this is a big deal, man.

SPEAKER_05 5:55

You know, it was a it was We started the church in the cavitorium. We had 160, went down to 90, went down to 70. It took us a long time to get 800 people.

Betsy’s Story From Music To Jesus

SPEAKER_04 6:02

It was bad. It was, it was. I remember being up on the platform just thinking, oh, this is just terrible. Thinking like, like, oh, I know they want me to get off of this platform. I mean, there was like, I had six team members. Yeah. There were six in total. Like there were there was no bench. Yeah, exactly. They there hadn't been a bench brought in at all. So um, but we we were doing our best. We were bringing our best. You know, I think um, you know, I'm grateful that we've walked together. Really, you are like a brother to me, but you're my pastor. You became my pastor um a long time ago. And really it was, I grew up in um Tennessee, grew up singing country music, grew up in church as a little girl, but really didn't have understand relationship with Jesus. Like I did the the religious act of going to church with my grandmother when I was little and all of that. But um, through my teenage years, my brothers and I started a band, so like we played every weekend.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

Right.

SPEAKER_04 7:04

Um, and then I had an opportunity to record a Christian album. Um, when I turned 19, I was in my freshman year of college, and it was a Christian country album. And I went to TBN in Nashville to record that, and I thought that was so cool. But I didn't have a relationship with Jesus, wasn't Lord of my life.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Right.

SPEAKER_04 7:24

It was through the process of recording that album that I was so impacted by the love of God. Right. It literally, it changed the trajectory of my life. What we do today, I had no idea. It didn't exist at the time. Like when I think about praise and worship at that time, it was in my mind, because I grew up in a small town in a little country church, it was hymn book.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

Right.

SPEAKER_04 7:49

So when I'm thinking praise and worship leader, that's what I thought of. So I didn't have a picture of what we've had the privilege of being a part of, what I've had the privilege of stewarding, stewarding all these years.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Right.

SPEAKER_04 8:02

And so um, yeah, it was really like Jesus changed my life and began to encounter me in my room through the word. And I had one little Christian CD, that was it.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

Right.

SPEAKER_04 8:15

But God was just showing up and revealing himself. And so I ended up doing a tour in Texas with that label and and was exposed to like churches with young people. And one of those church, one of those churches was Brandy's uncle's church.

SPEAKER_00 8:29

Right.

SPEAKER_04 8:30

And I ended up moving to Texas to go to church. That was radical. That was a big radical step, but I felt like it was a word from God. It was really Jesus calling me.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:39

Um, when I look back on it, and it he was I wasn't being called to worship ministry, I wasn't called uh being called to music per se. I didn't care if I ever sang another note. Right. I was so impacted by the presence and the power of the word of God, like it was transforming my life in my room by myself.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Right.

SPEAKER_04 8:59

And so I moved to Texas and started going to this church, and then I was introduced to praise and worship, and I was introduced to you guys. And we were in our early 20s. Yeah. You know, I remember you came, you'd come preaching your overalls. You had long hair at the time.

SPEAKER_05 9:15

I had a bad mullet.

SPEAKER_04 9:16

It was, it was pretty cool. And uh yeah, and so we we knew each other from that season. And then um, I came one weekend after I'd met my husband. We'd gotten married, came one weekend and led worship at a church you were pastoring in Abilene. And you guys shared a the vision of what we're living today all those years ago. And Tyron and I both we knew we were called to ministry. We knew we were called to Jesus first, but we didn't know what that was gonna look like. And uh man, our hearts burned that weekend. We were we were undone with this idea of reaching people and discipleship and helping people take steps in their walk with Jesus because we had been a part of a lot of encounter like there that season in the late 90s, there's a lot of encounter meetings, and we would go from church to church, and that was a wonderful thing. I think there's times in in uh church life. Um, and I think we're in that again. I mean, we see it here at our church in young people in the next generation, but that was a season of time where there was a lot of breath, there was a lot of encounter, like the breath of God.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

Right.

SPEAKER_04 10:22

But we had come to a point, we were newly married, and we knew we needed like some discipleship in our own life, and we knew it can't just be encounter. There had to be some sort of, there's gotta be more to this.

SPEAKER_05 10:35

And so I think that's important because I think people underestimate that, like they might, depending on your vantage point of our church or my leadership, you mentioning, you know, they might see one dimension, right? But we, you know, in our homes and in our early days and and and still in staff meeting to this day. I mean, we're we're we're spirit-filled encounter people. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 11:01

Like I love it's the bedrock of who we are.

SPEAKER_05 11:03

It's the bedrock of who we are. So we love the presence of God. We love to worship, we love to, we love the breath of God, you know, and and yet we we spent a season where that's all we were focused on.

SPEAKER_04 11:16

In that time, I was I I'd just been introduced to worship. So I was, I I joined this group and we we went all over the world. Yeah, you were traveling. Traveling and everything, and um lots of youth events, and and I did sense a call, like, man, God's gonna use these gifts that he gave me, like for the church, you know, like to help people connect with his presence. And I that was I'm so thankful for that season because I learned so much about the presence of God and hearing the voice of God and being led by the Spirit of God.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 11:46

Um, but but I knew like there needed there, there was a depth that uh of discipleship and walking with the Lord. And if I wanted to do this for a long time, there was some things that um I was missing.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:01

Um, and and the group I was in had an opportunity to like go on tour and and they recorded albums and and did a lot of amazing things. And I don't think that's a bad thing. I think there's room for all of it. But right before that, that next step that they took, I really felt a word of the Lord. And I felt like the Lord wanted me to be planted and to minister in the house of God, like to be planted in a place.

SPEAKER_00 12:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:27

That was before we met.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Right.

SPEAKER_04 12:29

And so then when Tyron and I heard all about what was in y'all's hearts, we really, we really went home, fasted and prayed, felt like, man, we're called to this vision and we're called to these people. So we've been walking together ever since.

SPEAKER_05 12:44

And um that was uh maybe 99 years.

SPEAKER_04 12:47

That was in 2000 uh 90, 99, 2000.

SPEAKER_05 12:50

99, 2000, so it'd be 26, 27 years ago.

SPEAKER_04 12:54

I I say all that to say you became my pastor when we prayed and fasted and felt like the Lord told us to go and join up with what you and Brandy were doing, not for a job or any of those things. We were just gonna go and serve. Um I I had sang on lots of platforms and I had performed before that all over the place, singing country country music. So I had performed my whole life.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Right.

Discipleship Before Platform Opportunity

SPEAKER_04 13:22

And when I encountered the Lord, I didn't want to perform anymore. But I felt like because of what God placed inside of me, uh the gifts and talents that God gave me, I began to gain this platform and people would put me up on this pedestal again. And what I appreciated so much the day you became my pastor was the day that you said, I know you could help our team, you could help our worship team uh a lot, but I'm just gonna let you sit for a while because you need to be discipled. Um, I want you to grow big on the inside. And that is literally the way that we have built all these years. We want to build big people. And you invested that in me. And it was like water to my heart that I didn't feel like somebody wanted something from me, but you wanted more for me than you wanted from me in that season. And um, that was transformational for me.

SPEAKER_05 14:21

Yeah, Lord knows we needed help big time, but and I don't I think you at that time in my life too, it's like you know that's the right principle, but I was still learning. We know now because we make a lot of decisions, we just open two campuses, and so we spend a lot of time talking about. So, in other words, I you you know it. Hey, I need to I need to invest here, but I do have Sunday coming. And so I was doing it by faith and doing it by sort of character and principle. I now see it so much bigger in terms of what I would share with everyone listening who may not have that revelation. They might be going, why would you why wouldn't you just hire somebody? Just hire them or use them or let them sing. Um I mean, you did come and lead worship, you know, just came and hung out. And I'm not talking about that, but I'm talking about when you said I'm planted here, I'm like, the first thing we're gonna do is help you become part of the family and value you as a person, not for your gift. And what I would say the principle is that I know much deeper now, talented people, especially platform people, they have trouble following someone that they feel like needs them more than they want to value them. As you said, they want more from them than than for them. They never really feel safe.

SPEAKER_02 15:42

Right.

SPEAKER_05 15:43

Because they they they they think so it's hard to cover someone.

SPEAKER_04 15:48

Do you like me for my gift? Do you want me here because of what I can do for you, or do you really care and want to know who I am?

SPEAKER_05 15:55

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And platform people, especially if you've grown up in it, you know, your brothers are talented. You, you know, y'all, you grow up in it, which is a combination usually that I also see we see in young leaders. It's like you actually want to be that, but you don't even have a love for the game. You know, like I always tell people the great ones, yeah, they just love the game.

SPEAKER_04 16:19

You don't have to tell them to practice.

SPEAKER_05 16:21

You don't have to tell them to practice. Yeah. We're in the middle of that now where we have all these groups we're coaching. It's like you don't even know your, you don't even know your learn your lyrics. Learn your lyrics. You know, so you were memorizing songs and writing and singing, and it wasn't it wasn't something like, oh, now if you'll hire me, then I'll start doing that. It was already a passion that then God knew and he always uses all that, right? So he was using y'all having to set up and figure out the notes and I learned to band lead in the bar. Yeah, in a bar.

SPEAKER_04 16:55

That's the truth. I learned to band lead uh a team uh Friday and Saturday night, four-hour shows. That's where I learned how to do it with my brothers. You know, before I knew the Lord, I didn't know there was anything else. Like I I loved music, he put that in me, but I didn't have a frame of reference. I had no frame of reference for what I would be doing, but God knew all along, right? So I was I feel like I was being trained. He was so good. He protected and guarded me. I was busy and putting my hands to something that I loved, but I was learning.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:29

And all that, he uses all things to work together for the good of those who love him and are called to be able to do it.

Training Worship Leaders With Dev Night

SPEAKER_05 17:34

He's using it all. I want to talk about that principle for a minute, though, because we, you know, with our other team members, we just open these campuses. We have a we have a college, we have a practicum, you know, and I think every church goes through seasons. Um we we you had some great God of the breakthrough. I was in a church the other day preaching and they were singing it as their thing. And I always send stuff and be like, this is really cool. We love creating, we love uh we've written some songs, we want to do another album. We have some great young leaders coming up. We think we have things to offer, but I think you go through seasons like quite honestly, right now we have an urge to do some more creating, but we find ourselves parenting a lot right now because we just have so many young and I think we all struggle because maybe someone isn't raising up worship leaders, but maybe that's the youth department, or maybe it's a business leader. I think anytime you see somebody anointed and good or or gifted, if everybody can recognize it. How do you balance like you? How do you balance, you know, you want them to use their gift, but you're looking at character because every time in 20 something, 26 years or whatever, we or me or you, without me knowing, we pushed gift above character, it burns you. You regret it every time. Talk about that. How do you know what have you done practically to see that? How do you measure that? What are some ways somebody can can can balance that? Because specifically with worship, there is a service and you do have to sing, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 19:25

It takes technical skill, um, but it can't just be technical skill. I mean, the thing is is that it is it is unkind, it is a poor stewardship if if you don't know where the person is at. Like if you don't know, if if it's just someone leading your worship service, but you don't know them, you don't know the state of their heart, you don't know, you know, I I don't think it's a a good stewardship of people to not get in there with people and know where they're at. Like it because because you're you're setting them up to be crushed by um the influence you're giving them.

SPEAKER_05 20:05

So like right now, you have, you know, someone can quote unquote audition. We that we use technology more now. You can send something in, then there can be uh when I say audition, you're gonna be able to do that. Evaluation, just evaluate the system. Evaluate, tell us how you know you sing, okay, you play, you deal, you know, you come through our grow track. Right. Everybody goes to the grow track. Then they that then, and then you guys have what's called dev night. What what is dev night? What are y'all doing with that? What are you trying to do?

SPEAKER_04 20:34

So it just really is investing in someone's worship leadership development. So dev is just the opportunity where we take time and um we break up between vocal and band. Uh, we break up into teams. Um, we roster teams, we roster songs, we give people the opportunity to interact with the, you know, different technology that we use, um, learn the songs, come prepared, really, even setting the expectation for what it takes to.

SPEAKER_05 21:03

So it's just be like if you were doing a mock service, right?

SPEAKER_04 21:06

It's a mock service and really setting the expectation of, you know, this is how you need to prepare. Um, and then uh we have a lot of fun. We encourage them on the platform. They actually get up and they lead songs and go through transitions. And we have several amazing volunteers that come in and help coach those people and just help them get acclimated to being on a team, playing together, singing together, all of that. Um, but it's so much more than that. We talk about the power of the words that we're singing. We talk about why we select the songs that we select. We go into some worship theology, we have a small group time at the end.

SPEAKER_05 21:43

And there's some teaching, there's some practical, and it's all just creating an incubator.

SPEAKER_04 21:49

One hundred percent.

SPEAKER_05 21:50

Typically, what I would say is you can see the how people respond in that environment tells you a lot about where they're absolutely they're not gonna commit to that if they're not.

SPEAKER_04 22:00

Right. They're not going to commit to that. But too, like one of the most rewarding things is like after that time that we've spent with them, for them to say, you know, I came in thinking it was this, but actually it's not.

SPEAKER_00 22:12

Right.

SPEAKER_04 22:12

It's actually we're here to serve. We're here to minister to the Lord because He's worthy of our worship. And he's we're we're ascribing worth to the one who's worthy. But then also we're here to serve the church. We're here to serve people. We're not an elite team. We're part of the serve team. Um, you know, this platform is just a it's literally like just a structure a little bit taller so that we can, you know, people can see, but we're not trying to elevate ourselves. We want to disappear. We want people to see Jesus. Right. We set up a place for people to meet with God and then we get out of the way.

SPEAKER_05 22:46

Good.

SPEAKER_04 22:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 22:47

What are some other things? So that what just let's talk culture for a minute. Like what what are targets? What are what do you feel like is a target for a worship leader? What are they really trying to do? Give me, give me three or four, like if you were to say, so there's a young worship leader and they come to you and they go, Hey, what does a win look like? We're gonna assume I know we shouldn't, but we're gonna assume, you know, they're they're they're walking with Jesus, they're they're close to him, they're their marriage, they're we're gonna kind of have some of these basics, but I'm talking much more in the like what what would you counsel them on? How do you when you teach on that at a you do a big deal too? I would say to anybody out there that wanted practical help or wanted to bring their teams, our leaders gathering at lead to win gathering in in January. This would be a place because you guys teach on this and do some things and do it, but what what do you talk about when you go? What are some targets that you want to have?

SPEAKER_04 23:44

I think I think everything stems out of like I know this is so basic, but I just it's two and four Jesus. Right. It's two and for Jesus. What we do is to him and for him. Right. Um, and it's to to to make him known, to, to help people see his character, his nature. Like the win is that people see Jesus. Yeah. That people encounter him. Like it is such a disappointment. They, if they encounter us and us alone, what a bummer. Right. Like he's the one that changes their life. So obviously, I know that's that's elementary, but it needs to be said it's two and four Jesus.

SPEAKER_05 24:25

But which that is important because that influences your song selection. Everything, it influences the spirit of how you lead. It influences, you know, back to get out of the way.

SPEAKER_04 24:36

Right. Back to But I will say, like, it's get out of the way, but also we have a room of people that are that are like needing to be led. Right. Right. So here's the thing, we we talk about this a lot. Um we can worship God not just with our song, but with our life, everything in our life. I love the the message version, you know, um that says, uh in your everyday going about that, you know what verse I'm talking about, like in everything we worship Him. But we're leading people when we come together um in a corporate gathering. And so um it's one eye on God as a worship leader. It's important that we keep our eyes on God, but we also keep our eyes on the people because there are people in there that may this may be the first time they've walked into the doors of a church.

SPEAKER_05 25:26

That was actually, I remember like that. We were talking about that, and someone kind of shared that picture of it's here, but it's it's here. So what happens is you go to a you go and they all have their eyes closed, right? Or it's it's so spiritual and they're really having an encounter. And I know there are some people who have that style where it's really what we're doing, kind of like right now, you and I are having a conversation and people are listening into it. Right. I don't think I do think there's something there of my own. 100%. However, if you're a worship leader and we're having corporate worship, this isn't about just me having a window into your private worship time. It's also about I don't just close my eyes, I don't just look up, I'm looking at the people and pulling and helping lead them somewhere.

SPEAKER_04 26:12

Right. Because it has to be both. Right. It has to be, you know, our eyes are on God. But also, if we're so, so focused here and we have a room of lost people, right, then they could feel excluded from what's going on and maybe like, how do I even enter in? Now we know that it's the it's the spirit of God, it's the presence of God that makes the difference. So the presence of God, like he can do whatever he wants to do and reveal himself. But I do think as a worship leader, we have a responsibility and a stewardship to help bring people along.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:50

So um one reason why I love to look out among the people is because sometimes the Lord will just literally drop someone, like pray for them.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

Right.

SPEAKER_04 27:00

Or you're declaring this truth over their lives, or you see the light come on for someone and someone take one little step. I've seen that's another, that's another thing, is I think it's so important to know the people that you're leading. Like I would say a win for a worship leader is to be involved in the life of church. Don't just come and lead worship, but be involved in the life of the church because you need to actually have relationships and know people that you're leading, not just come in and and lead your songs and leave.

SPEAKER_05 27:32

Right.

SPEAKER_04 27:32

Not just come in and go into the green room and never come out.

SPEAKER_05 27:35

Well, what that does the same way with a communicator or a pastor is what you then end up doing probably is trying to give your people something that someone's giving their people in a different context from your people.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

Right.

SPEAKER_05 27:48

Right. We share a lot.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

You got to do that.

SPEAKER_05 27:50

But it's like there's a there's something on Instagram from New York City, but they're you're not pastoring in New York City. So you need to know what you don't want to build something that looks great online, but does it connect with your community? Right. You know, there's stuff we do because we're in Fort Worth, Texas. 100% that, you know, I mean, we had a guy that owns a roofing company this weekend with the beard and a guitar leading a cool song that in Fort Worth, Texas.

SPEAKER_04 28:15

Has a good country vibe.

SPEAKER_05 28:16

It has a little country vibe. You and I both like that because I think you know, country music is from God. But it's like, and we work at also having other expressions. When you do we talk, we have younger people, we have weekends where it's uh young adults led. We let them do their flow, start dark, start lower, go higher. I mean, we're not we're not married to models, we're not even married to music. We're we're married to bringing the people into the presence of the children.

SPEAKER_04 28:44

The methods have to change.

SPEAKER_05 28:45

The methods change.

SPEAKER_04 28:46

Yeah, depending upon where you're at. You like the message never changes, but the method has to always change from generation to generation, right? Depending upon what your demographic is, who you're trying to reach, all those things determine you know, that's the determining factor for, you know, the songs that you pick. Um, I think it's really important that we're writing and we are singing um theologically rich songs that are to and for God.

SPEAKER_05 29:14

And that typically are gonna come out of the pastor's as you know, as the there's a messaging, right? Because there is the Bible, right, but there's also a a communication in that church because there is a personification or a the person sharing the word that filters it through your context. So that's a good you know, good thing too that for a worship leader, somebody writing. I was recently with Chris Tomlin in a little private setting with this guitar. I was it was really a powerful thing because he was just talking about amazing, he was a kid and he had a couple songs. He got invited to do a youth thing, had them on a note card. It was pretty powerful, you know. This guy who's written these amazing songs, but he was like, you know, people talk about, you know, a guy laid hands on him and said, Your songs will go around the world when he really had only two songs. So you talk about the power of impartation, the power of believing in young people, which we do. But he's like, a lot of my songs come from my Bible and the book of songs. If you listen to a lot of his, it's just scripture. He read the psalm and he put a guitar lyric with it. It just kind of it's like this crazy thing, you know, that God touches.

SPEAKER_02 30:31

Yes.

Serve Local Church Over Comparison

SPEAKER_05 30:31

Speaking of young people in next generation, that's been our passion. As you said, we're living it. We now have kids. You just had you guys just had to be. I'm a grandma now. You just got to be a grandma, which is where it's at. Yes. And so I've been a papa for a little while. It's the best. But we all those years ago were saying, what if we help the next generation walk out their calling? So we have a college, we have non-accredited tracks, we have a residency, you know. We're we're building within, but we also, I always love to put this out there, that we also see ourselves as a place and have fruit that backs this up. That out there there may be a young leader like y'all who were out there going, where do I get discipled? And where do I how could I get trained? We have a passion. Really, what we're doing today, we love, we love our church. We're completely content. You know, every week, our team serving our people. Absolutely. I'm completely content. I we I do this podcast, we do what we do with leaders gathering. We feel a responsibility to give it away. Yes. And we feel a responsibility to give the next generation what many times we wish someone would have given us, although we did have a lot of help. But when you're teaching younger people about worship leading as it relates to your pastor, as it relates to the church and the team, what are some wins there?

SPEAKER_04 31:56

I think I think there is such a place for both of those expressions. I think there has to be worship that goes out into the world. But I think um putting your hands to the plow in your local context, that that's not something people are like posting about necessarily.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

Right.

SPEAKER_04 32:19

But it's crucial. Right. Like it's the church, it's the bride of Christ. I mean, we're investing in the church. Um, and those the songs that are written and the people who travel and all those things, there's a place for that because that impacts the church.

SPEAKER_00 32:35

Right.

SPEAKER_04 32:35

But in a local context, I think it's being faithful with whatever is in front of you. I just think back when we started and we had six members, you know, and and I had vision of like, man, I I just I know, Lord, that that you want us to build a family here and people that like are excited about serving the house of God and excited about using their gifts to bring this amazing offering before God and to just be a blessing to the local body that they're in. Like, I think don't I think comparison is a huge thing looking at what everybody else is doing instead of doing, I'm so thankful we didn't have that.

SPEAKER_05 33:16

Right. We didn't. We didn't. Like it was We didn't know how bad we were, and we didn't know how good everybody else was.

SPEAKER_04 33:22

That was good because we might have quit. Because it was pretty bad sometimes. But I'm just saying, like, if if you could, if I could say anything, if you could just like be all in, right? Like give God your best. It's it's give God your very best in the small thing. It's the principle of be faithful with the little.

SPEAKER_01 33:44

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 33:45

And as you do the as you do that over a long period of time, yeah, um, the fruit of that is beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 33:52

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 33:52

It's beautiful. And then you look up and you real and you see not just a lot of people, but you see generations of people um that are worshipers and love the Lord and and want to serve the house of God. I I don't know if that answers the question.

SPEAKER_05 34:08

No, I think I think it's there's we all know this, you know. I uh the the that you know, the devil was the first worship leader, and there's this battle. And we all know because it is so powerful, there isn't that is why the enemy attacks, and it's also why churches compromise is because I mean, quite honestly, even from a marketing standpoint, more people know about churches' music than they a lot of times even you could say worship maybe is because TV preachers and different stuff. I'm not minimizing preaching, you know. Jesus did, we do preach the word of God and people are saved by the foolish. I'm not minimizing, but in today's world, again, because music is so much power, so there's so much power in that, and also the streaming platforms and the ways people have access to things now, it can be huge. So, what I find is churches tend to compromise to get something that they ultimately don't want because then they have problems. And so a lot of pastors and leaders have experience with that. Um, I think the worship leader has to say it's not about me. Right. That's hard to say. If you're really trying to build a platform and not build the people, you and your pastor are gonna end up probably in some challenges unless that platform's connected to his platform or y'all have a plan.

SPEAKER_02 35:34

Right.

SPEAKER_05 35:35

But if you if you really want a platform, but you're using your church and your pastor to ultimately get to something beyond where you're in. That's that's not integrity. It's not.

SPEAKER_04 35:47

I think preserving the purity of why we do what we do is like so big.

SPEAKER_01 35:54

It is.

SPEAKER_04 35:54

It's it's it's foundational. Like why again, I I just I've I've been thinking about this a lot, even uh I'm talking to our college on Monday about what it looks like to be an ideal team member.

SPEAKER_05 36:10

And um and I just all the points?

SPEAKER_04 36:13

Not yet. I'm working on it.

Alignment With Pastor And Team Culture

SPEAKER_05 36:15

Yeah, but uh give some ideas about that because that's really what I'm fishing for. Yeah. Because you've been, you know, you and Tyron, longtime friends, you're like my sister, you're a great teammate. And the reason is you're pushing the vision ahead, but it's never a battle for me when I say, now, if you feel passionate about something where you're like, hey, I feel like this could really help us, you'll tell me. And if you feel that way, then I'm gonna be like, tell me more, let me help. And a lot of times I'm gonna go with kind of where, but on the other hand, it's not hard for me to say, I don't want to do that, I want to go here, because you understand that at the end of the day, I'm the chief communicator and you're coming alongside. So it's not weird. Right. There's a collaboration, absolutely, but you're also trying to understand, you're listening to me in those creative meetings, you're listening for what's God saying to him, what's on his heart, where are we going? Where are we trying to go? You know, right. And so I think I think a lot of times worship leaders, you know, they don't understand. Number one, we're all there to serve Jesus. Right. We're there to serve the people, not ourselves. Right. But you also, as the worship leader, are there to serve your pastor's heart and vision, right? 100%.

SPEAKER_04 37:33

Um, yeah, I I as far as that goes out and talking about that, I think um one of the biggest pieces of advice that I've given young leaders outside of our context, um, you know, anybody can you can go get a job anywhere. It's really important that you know that you're in alignment with your pastor, with the pastor that you're walking with. You're in alignment. And I man, I believe in this vision and I'm getting behind it because you're here, you're in that local church to serve the vision of the pastor, really. I mean, that it the Lord gives the vision.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

Yep. It's God's vision.

SPEAKER_04 38:10

It's God's vision, but it's carried out through the senior leader. Right. And so submitting to that vision is super important. Um, and the thing is, I'm grateful for your leadership because I can do that securely because that vision has not changed. Like it's the same, you know?

SPEAKER_05 38:30

And that's what I would say to pastors is you want you want worship leaders that are committed and consistent in this. Well, then then you have to also be that person.

SPEAKER_04 38:43

There has to be relationship. There has to be some sort of you can't what's not what doesn't work is the worship leader is over here and they're doing what they think is the right thing, or maybe they're doing what they like or the newest, coolest song, and there's no communication ever unless it's not right.

SPEAKER_00 39:02

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 39:02

And then it's that wasn't right, don't do this song, whatever. You know, there is the part on the worship leader's side that, hey, you you submit to the vision of the senior leader, but then also the senior leader, I think um, again, I just I honor you because um you do this, like there has to be that ongoing dialogue that we're in this together. We're doing this together.

SPEAKER_05 39:26

Well, we're in it, we're providing direction, providing thoughts, having discussions. We've gone through seasons with our young team and all of us of talking about things and stuff, trends in worship. And is that us? And is it not? And should we go down that path? We'll just kind of have that like a family discussion with our leaders. What though would you say right now to like there's this these up and coming? What is a great worship team member? What do they look like? What do they act like? What are you looking for?

SPEAKER_04 39:58

Yeah, I think um a big one is humility.

SPEAKER_01 40:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:03

Like you, you're not this person that like it's about you, it's about your personal preference. You leave your personal preference at the door. It's not about me. I'm here to serve. I want to add value. Um I think humility, um, someone who's diligent at their craft, that they continue to grow, that they want to be great at what they do. Um, that whenever you're given something, that you you bring your best. Yeah. Um because Jesus is worthy of our best. Um and purity of heart, like the motive in which you're doing the, doing what you're doing. Like, what is the motivation? Um, that they're heart that they're they're sold out and and love the Lord, and that they're also walking in a one version integer, one version. We're not this behind closed doors. Like what's being cultivated in private is the manifestation of what's cultivated in private. It's gonna be seen in the public.

SPEAKER_05 41:06

So this isn't, I mean, again, we have to always qualify because we don't want people to think we don't understand. You can go do a gig, right? So, in other words, you might be invited to something that you're not building, but you go there and sing, I'm that's not that. But your church is not a gig.

SPEAKER_04 41:23

No.

SPEAKER_05 41:24

It's not a gig. If it is, that's a short, that's a short-term relationship. If it's what can I get? How what is it? That's just not gonna work, right? I mean, so I think on the whole idea of talking to young people back to if you love it, if you're diligent, if you want to get better, if you get good, I mean, those kind of people are welcomed into teams. And it's and one of the things on team leadership that I've seen recently is the quickest way to minimize the overall strength of your team is to allow people not committed too much access. Because what do diligent people who have that want to be with? Because I mean, I'm a I'm a sports guy, I've never played in a band. I don't know. You want to be on a winning team. I don't play instruments, but on the other hand, you know, I love everybody, but I don't want I don't want people on my team who don't care.

SPEAKER_00 42:23

Right.

Heart Integrity Beats Production Value

SPEAKER_05 42:23

You know what I mean? It's kind of like, bro, like, and I know I know enough because I've done enough services. If the drummer doesn't care, we're in trouble. Right. That team has the key off of that base level. We're all the worship leader, then everybody's now key in, and so that we're all the worship leader, and so um it it really is a a really amazing picture that people take for granted of how much synergy teamwork, everyone being diligent makes it great.

SPEAKER_02 42:57

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 42:58

And I think for you, what I would say, if there's anybody out there which I think transcends worship, is the culture. So I've always said, you know, over the years, I'm grateful because, you know, again, we've gone through seasons where we've done, we've done trumpets, we've done this season. We've done all of them, right? Like we've been down all the paths, right? Deeply spiritual, navel gazing, which I'm not great at, but you know, we've and and who knows where we're going. I mean, we have a whole group now of now, we're at a phase where we have all this young people, who knows where we're gonna, what it'll be, or but what I would say is what we've tried to maintain is we've said, okay, there's stuff we can't control. What we are gonna do is keep our hearts right. Right. What we are gonna do is not let disunity come in. What we are gonna do is come here to worship Jesus, lift him up. What we are gonna do is serve our people. And love them. What we are going to do is have a spirit there that you're not a burden. And what a great privilege we have to work.

SPEAKER_04 44:09

It's a privilege.

SPEAKER_05 44:10

You led this last weekend. I preached this weekend. And you go, you go there with and I think the people pick up on that. Absolutely. You know what you can't sustain something for 25 years that you don't have in your heart. Right. And so I just I think that at the essence of it, I would think some people on the outside would look at us, like in our services at Milestone. We've gotten more creative. We try to do our best. We like good things. We um but really at the heart of it is still we know if the lights go out and the and the screens go down. We're still gonna worship. We're gonna get a it did the other squirrel chewed through a cable and we grabbed a guitar and we're still gonna worship God because we worshiped God and love him this morning.

SPEAKER_04 45:09

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 45:10

We're gonna worship him tomorrow. We're gonna worship him with LEDs, or before we had LEDs and we had overhead projectors. Because at the end of the day, there's a lot we don't know, but what we can steward is our hearts.

SPEAKER_04 45:26

Absolutely. It's all about that. It's about the integrity, purity, like knowing that it's him. It's it's him, it's to him, it's for him, it's not about us. I think that when we also, if I could say one more thing about um when I think about a young leader, you just walk in another another measure of security when it's not about you. It's not about you. It like when you make it not about you, when you just make a decision, like I'm gonna walk into every room. I'm not gonna think about myself.

SPEAKER_05 46:04

Very good.

SPEAKER_04 46:05

I'm gonna be a carrier of the kingdom of God. I'm gonna be a carrier of the presence of God. I'm gonna add value to the people that are there. I'm gonna, I'm not gonna think about me, but how can I bring Jesus? How can I be bring his presence? Um, and when we make it about that, you just, there's just a peace. There's a there's a security that you walk in because you're not constantly battling in your head, what does so-and-so think? Am I doing this good enough? Uh, you know, they're talking on the front row, are they talking about me? Is my fly unzipped? Is it all the things like I cannot? There's just so much, there's so much that happens on the platform when we lead worship. You have click tracks going and you've got a music director talking to you in there, and then you've got this room full of people that are buzzing around and trying to find a seat, and maybe you're in the middle of song one and nobody's paying attention, and you're like, Hey guys, welcome to church.

SPEAKER_05 47:00

Or like this weekend when I take up the offering and half of them leave. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 47:03

If you're like anyway, uh yeah, so it's that, it's it's that stuff, and then there's like the warfare stuff that goes on in your mind while you're leading worship. Every kind of distraction the enemy could bring your way, he's gonna try to get you off of the main thing, right? Yeah, and so when when you when you posture yourself like it's it's for God, it's not about me, I'm here to serve. And it doesn't matter what the conversation is on the the people in the front row. And I can nine times out of ten, it's not about you. No, it's about something else. Yeah, you just you lead with a different grace and security, um, making it about the main thing, keeping the main thing, the main thing.

SPEAKER_05 47:47

I think a lot of people want to get better at that. And and and I would say as a coach of creatives, me years coaching, what I've realized too is is you you you need to, if you want to lead your youth team, your children's team, you want to have highly talented creatives, you need to also study how to coach them.

SPEAKER_04 48:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 48:09

Because I find a lot of people we evaluate, we we do video takes, we watch ourselves back, we have a we have a Monday meeting. I'm a coach, so I do give evaluation, but I'm careful when to offer evaluation too much. Sometimes y'all are actually during the game asking me for more evaluation. I'm like, it's great, it's been amazing, keep going, knock it out. So you've got to know you can create an overly evaluative culture and then it becomes performance, it stifles authenticity.

SPEAKER_04 48:40

Right.

SPEAKER_05 48:41

And that's more than just worship, but a coaching principle. Yeah. But I think what you're hitting on is so true. Oh, people who over-evaluate themselves have bad body language. Someone in a meeting that's mostly thinking about their performance are terrible in the meeting because they get very self-consumed. They get very, they're worried about their deal. Are they going to stay on time? You know, if they're not on time, then what's that mean for me?

SPEAKER_01 49:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 49:10

They miss the bigger picture. Take yourself too seriously. Way too seriously. Most of those people come into your church or meeting, you know what they're thinking about?

SPEAKER_02 49:22

Themselves.

SPEAKER_05 49:24

And and what do they really want to do? We say this all the time. We want to put on a good service, we want to be excellent, they want to meet with God.

SPEAKER_04 49:32

They need to they need to sense his presence.

SPEAKER_05 49:34

What are we going to do for the video announcements? What about this? What am I going to preach on? What am I going to say? And you know what they really want? To experience God. 100%. And so we need to keep that as a perspective. No matter what happens today, I'm bringing the presence of God where I go.

SPEAKER_01 49:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 49:52

And I think that's an important thing. You know, I think what you're saying when you just talk about platform leadership in general, the more evaluative you are of yourself, the less connective you'll be to the other people.

SPEAKER_04 50:04

I love when you say, you know, when you when you go out, you say, I'm doing this for you, Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 50:11

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 50:12

That's something that every every church leader, no matter what, if you are walking out on a platform, even just to say out loud, it's important for us to say it out loud. I'm doing this for you, Jesus. Our own person needs to say it.

SPEAKER_05 50:27

I do it every time. I mean, you have a little moment there where the bumper, right? So I did it this weekend. You, you know, you're thinking, and there's you know, 11 o'clock service is really packed, and you kind of feel an urge to go, there could be guests here, I want to do better. And you just stop and go, Lord, I'm doing this for you. Right. When there was 70 people in a cafetorium, or there's 2,500 people in this room, and uh, you know, several thousand watching outside of this room doing it for you, and that settles you to back to keeping the main thing the main thing. So I think a lot of it, if I talk about you, you have a skill, I have a skill. We've created worship services for years, but really what we're saying today is if people at any level go, I want to learn from them, it's way more culture than it is skill. Yeah, we're not the best singers and preachers in in the body of Christ, but we we are gonna have a good attitude and we are gonna serve God's people, and we are gonna make it about Jesus, and I'm gonna show up whether I'm preaching or not, and I'm gonna worship, and I'm gonna ask God to keep my heart right. And so at the end of the day, what I would tell somebody out there, it ain't about your LED screens or how beautiful it is. It's really about your heart. Right. You can go, you can, you can uh, you'd be amazed at what could happen if you just got your heart right.

SPEAKER_04 51:50

Right.

SPEAKER_05 51:50

And that could happen. So thank you for coming today.

SPEAKER_04 51:52

Absolutely. That was fun. Hi five.

SPEAKER_05 51:55

I want to say thank you for checking out this episode of the Lead to Win podcast. I want you to know that I love and my team loves getting this kind of content into your life so it can help you lead and win at what matters most. So I'd love for you to do me a favor like, comment, especially subscribe if you would, so that we can make sure that we're able to get to you some of the things that are gonna help you lead to win.